Question for any former Karateka here (or current)

[jimbob]

Just wondering since I have no idea...

A friend of mine has just started with a new school - and he comes from an Isshinryu background. Not sure what the school is right now. He is a 2nd dan and had to move interstate for work.

Anyway - he turned up at class wearing his old gi - fully prepared to wear whatever belt the new teacher asked him to wear. This wasn't the problem. The problem, as he explained it to me this morning, is that he showed up wearing a white gi top and black pants. The new teacher told him this was 'disrespectful' which was news to my mate.

I do have to say - my friend was never much one for tradition or history or lineage - he just likes good hard physical training and mixing it up. I have no clue having trained my whole life in a t shirt.

Is this the case? I would have thought it was more to do with tradition than anything else. A quick google around has come up with the idea of everyone being 'uniform and equal' - perhaps this is the 'disrespect' thing - but then, your belt colour distinguishes you anyway.

I just wanted to ask because I know we have some members with experience in the Japanese and Korean arts.

[Bacon]

Some schools think it is, some think it isn't. I could never show up to my old aikido dojo in anything less than a white gi. On the other hand when I started jujitsu blue and black gis were the norm but nobody cared that I wore white.

It really just depends on the teacher.
Traditional Japanese martial arts were originally practiced in a regular men's kimono before the judo gi became the standard. Most folks who prattle on about white being traditional really don't have much of an idea of Japanese history.
Even karate, which is Okinawan, wouldn't originally have been practiced in a dogi.

[MightyB]

Some schools only allow a "mixed" uniform after you've attained your black belt there. Same thing with wearing jewelry of any kind.

[EarthDragon]

Bacon hit the nail on the head. Some teachers get all mixed up in what they think is "tradational" and they are so far off it shouldnt matter because they arent fully aware of what Traditional japnese traditions are........
But non japanese teachers love to try to carry them on even if they are incorrect so its the sensei's preference and they are usually non japenese.

Might b, you are never allowed to wear jewlery in any class situation that I have ever heard of , for accidental lacerations form rings and at the very least the possibility of breaking say a necklace or having a earring ripped out of your lobe or nose etc etc.

[Kellen Bassette]

I've seen the pictures of the old Okinawan masters training in just shorts. This was the "traditional" Okinawan uniform. The Gi and belts were borrowed from Judo. Traditional Karate schools I trained with would usually let you wear half white, half black, or all black if you were a black belt...but we could only where white for promotion or if Shihan was there or such.

None of it is "real" tradition, in fact most things considered "tradition" in the TMA are fairly recent conventions. Go back before WWII and all these "traditional" things disappear.

I have one instructor who just always says, "When in Rome,"....no sense getting bent out of shape, just do whatever they do there; and whatever you want when your not there.

[jimbob]

I think my friend is of the same opinion - tradition doesn't mean all that much when the instructor doesn't really understand what the tradition is himself. But then, he (my mate) really doesn't stand for too much bull$hit at the best of times - especially when it comes to people trying too hard to be asian when they're not and don't need to be.

Thanks for the replies - please feel free to add if anyone can come up with anything more. I'm quite interested myself, only because it never really occurred to me at all that mixing different colours would be seen to be such a bad thing.

Cheers

[Jimbo]

When I trained Kenpo back in the 1970s/early '80s, I had an all-black uniform for many years like many did. Later, I wore a white gi top with black gi pants. Not due to rank, but because that's what I had by then.

Also having done KMA and JMA in the past, I think they would have wanted more uniformity, meaning all-white gis/doboks. Although, my Shi-to-ryu sensei from Japan, who was very strict, had allowed a guy from a KMA school to wear his previous uniform, which had colored trim on it. He might have expected him to get another gi at some point, but I didn't see him making a big deal out of it.

*add:
My Kenpo teacher had some black belt assistants who sometimes wore those Century outfits seen in the late '70s/early '80s that looked more like a vest top, sometimes seen at open tournaments at the time. Some of these were guys who also were kickboxers, etc.

[Kellen Bassette]

I personally don't like gis or kung fu uniforms. I prefer just to train in T shirts and workout pants. I never understood why adopting an outdated foreign fashion is important to martial arts tradition. We don't need every aspect of Asian culture to have the martial tradition, unless that's what your into.

I don't care what people wear, but the yellow or blue gis with enough patches and advertisements as a Nascar driver are a bit of a turn off. Each to their own though.

[Jimbo]

When I train on my own, which by necessity is always for the time being, I just wear the old BJJ gi bottoms and a T-shirt. These judo-gi bottoms are the most durable and last for years.

[jimbob]

I've worn a karate-gi myself on only two occasions. One when I decided on a lark to enter a jka style tournament (and got myself disqualified in the semi's for ko'ing my opponent by accident), and once at a general all styles training day because the judo guys tore my t shirt to pieces the year before. I don't find them especially comfortable but there's a lot to be said for them if you're going to do some grappling.

Come to think of it, whenever I've noticed a mixed gi top and bottom combination, it's been usually kenpo or a korean style. My friend's Isshinryu school I think encourages black pants after black belt - not too sure.

[TenTigers]

you guys are missing the point.
It's not about Japanese tradition.
It is disrespectful if the school has a particular uniform and you show up wearing anything you **** please.
For someone with experience, the first thing you should have inquired about was what was proper attire.

[Bacon]

you guys are missing the point.
It's not about Japanese tradition.
It is disrespectful if the school has a particular uniform and you show up wearing anything you **** please.
For someone with experience, the first thing you should have inquired about was what was proper attire.

While this is true I was bringing up that particular argument because e folks who usually demand all white gis usually cite their reasoning as it being traditional training attire when the fact is it is not.

[PalmStriker]

If they really want to be traditional they should stop practicing the Sanchin Kata, or anything as disrespectful as TCMA: :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV0fZLltLW0

[PalmStriker]

While this is true I was bringing up that particular argument because e folks who usually demand all white gis usually cite their reasoning as it being traditional training attire when the fact is it is not.

Not a traditional thing, more of an anal thing. Have seen it in American Karate schools, school wants to sell uniforms, accessories, etc. All about money, mind control.

[TenTigers]

While this is true I was bringing up that particular argument because e folks who usually demand all white gis usually cite their reasoning as it being traditional training attire when the fact is it is not.
true-in old Okinawa, they stripped down to nearly loin cloths.
The gi is an undergarment as well, and was worn under the kimono,
but..I wouldn't allow someone to wear Spiderman Underoos if the school uniform was tighty whities...
See? That would be disrespectful.

[PalmStriker]

Plus, women wearing a pants/uiform is not traditional garb, even as recent as the first Judo Exhibition in America at the request of Prez Teddy Roosevelt around 1905 0r so. Great sport gi, tho. :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9anKEDSotQ&feature=related

[TenTigers]

Not a traditional thing, more of an anal thing. Have seen it in American Karate schools, school wants to sell uniforms, accessories, etc. All about money, mind control.

No, it IS a traditional thing. It is that school's tradition.
And as such should be respected.

Private schools/parochial schools, don't require standardized uniforms just to make a dollar.

Traditional TKD wears all white. They refer to a do-bohk as "clothes of discipline."
Kyokushin wears all white-no patches, just the kanji sewn on the lapel.
The idea may be one of purity, or simply of uniformness. No distractions.
You should be focusing on training, not the self/ego.

There are still traditional Karate tournaments which require all competitors to wear a white gi, no patches. This is so they can be judged without bias.
The Kuoshu tournaments used to be this way as well.

[EarthDragon]

tentigers,

You should be focusing on training, not the self/ego.

great statement, however the same could be said about the instructor who cares more about what one dresses like than being grateful to have sometone to train.

Too many times real training is over shadowed by less important things. I teach as traditional as it gets, right down to the writing and language, but a simple t- shirt and pants and footwear if you like is all I require....

we sometimes have class with no shirts, no shoes and just shorts to learn how to fight if we got into it at the beach as an example. If you only train wearing and grabbing a gi how can you train realistically without one?

[Robinhood]

When you don't have content, you need to draw attention away from that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just wondering since I have no idea...

A friend of mine has just started with a new school - and he comes from an Isshinryu background. Not sure what the school is right now. He is a 2nd dan and had to move interstate for work.

Anyway - he turned up at class wearing his old gi - fully prepared to wear whatever belt the new teacher asked him to wear. This wasn't the problem. The problem, as he explained it to me this morning, is that he showed up wearing a white gi top and black pants. The new teacher told him this was 'disrespectful' which was news to my mate.

I do have to say - my friend was never much one for tradition or history or lineage - he just likes good hard physical training and mixing it up. I have no clue having trained my whole life in a t shirt.

Is this the case? I would have thought it was more to do with tradition than anything else. A quick google around has come up with the idea of everyone being 'uniform and equal' - perhaps this is the 'disrespect' thing - but then, your belt colour distinguishes you anyway.

I just wanted to ask because I know we have some members with experience in the Japanese and Korean arts.

The disrespectful comment was probably a bit much, UNLESS he had told your friend that the school uniform is all white.
The instructor simply should have said, "we don't mix colors, so please be in all white uniform next time".

[Lee Chiang Po]

tentigers,


great statement, however the same could be said about the instructor who cares more about what one dresses like than being grateful to have sometone to train.

Too many times real training is over shadowed by less important things. I teach as traditional as it gets, right down to the writing and language, but a simple t- shirt and pants and footwear if you like is all I require....

we sometimes have class with no shirts, no shoes and just shorts to learn how to fight if we got into it at the beach as an example. If you only train wearing and grabbing a gi how can you train realistically without one?

It will all depend upon what you are training. Jiujitsu, Judo, and some other grappling type systems would not be easy on the wardrobe. When I get done with someone a homeless person wouldn't want to hang around with them. A gi is made to withstand lots of severe handling. If you are training certain systems you would be better off wearing street clothing as such because they are restrictive compared to a gi and would require you alter your training methods somewhat. I always wear loose and baggy clothing for this reason. Well fitting slacks or jeans will restrict leg movement to some degree, but loose and baggy clothes allow more freedom of movement. I think appropriate dress is that which allows you to train properly. I feel that making heavy over dress code is more about control than anything.

[mawali]

Just wondering since I have no idea...

A friend of mine has just started with a new school - and he comes from an Isshinryu background. Not sure what the school is right now. He is a 2nd dan and had to move interstate for work.

Anyway - he turned up at class wearing his old gi - fully prepared to wear whatever belt the new teacher asked him to wear. This wasn't the problem. The problem, as he explained it to me this morning, is that he showed up wearing a white gi top and black pants. The new teacher told him this was 'disrespectful' which was news to my mate.

I do have to say - my friend was never much one for tradition or history or lineage - he just likes good hard physical training and mixing it up. I have no clue having trained my whole life in a t shirt.

I just wanted to ask because I know we have some members with experience in the Japanese and Korean arts.

Although I started with TKD, I spent time in Okinawa in the late 1970s/early 1980 and the uniform of the day was usually white, with everyone wearing the same uniform. I am aware of military students training with a t-shirt and green trousers but they all wore the same colour scheme.
Interestingly, I just came across a magazine called Classical Fighting Arts Vol 2, #23 (Issue 46) and they had a shrt introduction to Issinryu. It basically deals with Okinawa MA and how it "morphed" into a Japanese system and incorporating Japanese modes of conduct and technology!

[MightyB]

Again, it depends on the school style, the instructor's preference, or the affiliated network if there is one.

In some schools, only those with a black belt and above can wear mixed uniforms. Some actually have a specific way to do that depending on your rank meaning for example second degrees where black tops white pants and third degrees where red tops and black pants etc. Like I said before, it depends on the style, the instructor, or the affiliation.

And yes, in some karate schools - a black belt and above can wear jewelry if they choose. Is it smart to do that? Probably not, but it's up to them to decide.

[Kevin73]

It is a cultural thing, and not really a "traditional" thing. Black gi's were seen as disrespectful in the MA. If you look to the "lion dance", it was an open challenge to other schools when you danced with a black lion.

In the US, Kajukenbo was one of the first to wear black uniforms (kenpo also). They did this on purpose to represent the challenge to others and how they phrased it, "they were wearing their death clothes".

In the US/Western countries, we don't really care about the color of things so we don't care about what we wear, but other places it really does matter.

[David Jamieson]

It is a cultural thing, and not really a "traditional" thing. Black gi's were seen as disrespectful in the MA. If you look to the "lion dance", it was an open challenge to other schools when you danced with a black lion.

In the US, Kajukenbo was one of the first to wear black uniforms (kenpo also). They did this on purpose to represent the challenge to others and how they phrased it, "they were wearing their death clothes".

In the US/Western countries, we don't really care about the color of things so we don't care about what we wear, but other places it really does matter.

We wore black all the time. Head to toe. No ninja. lol

But in Karate, my Gi was Blue, then white. I never had a black one.

[No_Know]

Just wondering since I have no idea...
I would have thought it was more to do with tradition than anything else. A quick google around has come up with the idea of everyone being 'uniform and equal' - perhaps this is the 'disrespect' thing - but then, your belt colour distinguishes you anyway.

I just wanted to ask because I know we have some members with experience in the Japanese and Korean arts.

I might think be one Of us first. Then we see how you rank within this group as we mark/distinguish ourselves as to level of training/accomplishment.

I think it might be like wearing air force slacks and an army top...Whatever the school recognizes as uniform-hence the name uniform perhaps; wear that or buck the discipline--you see if you can't conform to dress as you've been asked to-that lack of respecting that request is disrespectful-a frowned upon thing in these circles I might suppose.

The others wear the entire uniform, What are you special? DDifferent in a superior way that only you get to not respect this representation of the school? It indicates you are part of the school. To no be uniformed is a hit at the students who do follow along; the school that chose that as it's National flag if you would; the teacher who now has students that do not have to follow suit or disobey--a lack of leadership reflected on the instructors...some stuff like that might be.

While not Japanese/Korean, there are Chinese schools who use a T-shirt as part of the uniform, and they have no less regard for wearing the uniform--Martial practical (Military), Martial Art, Organizational (the business office).

No_Know

[Kevin73]

We wore black all the time. Head to toe. No ninja. lol

But in Karate, my Gi was Blue, then white. I never had a black one.

What style/association?

Was your blue gi, the dark navy color or the bright BJJ blue? Also, was there a kobudo tradition attached to it?

[David Jamieson]

What style/association?

Was your blue gi, the dark navy color or the bright BJJ blue? Also, was there a kobudo tradition attached to it?

Was isshinryu (shorin/goju/isshin).
it was like a chalk blue, no tradition attached, just the one I bought / was given.