Songshan Shaolin Concepts

[Shaolindynasty]

This was from the thread on learning multiple forms but I wanted to start a new thread to discuss this in more depth


No one has yet organised Shaolin into a Logical syllabus. So at the moment, in order to learn the style well, you really do have to practice a lot of forms. Or have an extremely good teacher who teaches you all the principles well.


This is the problem I had while I was training Songshan shaolin. My main system is choy lay fut and there is a set of concepts that form the frame of the entire system. The core concepts make training the system very focused and direct in terms of what type of skills you are trying to achieve. we have for instance the 10 elements which are 10 types of striking that form the basis for all other striking.

CLF 10 elements with the chinese characters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTBbKucwdI

Does Songshan Shaolin have a directly applicable set of core concepts like this? I was never taught them and my (at the time of my training) my chinese/instructors english was too limited to really ask also I was unable to identify them. Perhaps someone with more expierence can explain and help me understand better

[bawang]

shaolin hong quan definitelly follows hong quan 5 elements.

[Shaolindynasty]

what are they?

[GeneChing]

It's like a finger pointing at the moon....

:D

[RenDaHai]

Does Songshan Shaolin have a directly applicable set of core concepts like this? I was never taught them and my (at the time of my training) my chinese/instructors english was too limited to really ask also I was unable to identify them. Perhaps someone with more expierence can explain and help me understand better


I think I might have said the quote above.....

Shaolin does indeed have set of core concepts. However it has not been logically systemized. I was thinking of doing an instructional video explaining them all, but it would need to be several hours long and I don't think anyone would watch it.

Shaolin begins with a set of Principles. (i.e Xian Fang, hou gong, Gun chu gun ri, 6 harmonies,5 elements, 4 sensations, 3 sections, Wu de, and many more). These principles dictate kind of a set of rules that the techniques generally follow. Using them it is easy to 'decode' any technique and see where it is wrong or correct. When Techniques don't follow these principles well they are often referred to as 'CuoWu' i.e Wrong Wushu, but that doesn't mean they are completely ineffective or unusable, simply that they violate the rules.

Following this , you have a set of principles, formulae, but no actual movements. In fact if you understand these well, you don't even need any moves. But it helps to have inspiration. But what is the logical order of these techniques? There isn't one written out, but I believe it is best to start with 3 essential technique subsystems which help you understand the system.

Yun Ding, Pan Zhou, Dan Bian. (Cloud Peak, Coiling elbow, Single Whip)

These are the name of individual techniques but each one of these techniques has so many permutations that it forms its own sub system.

Yun Ding are the hands based on the circling hand movement, they form a series of parries and simple strikes and qin na. When done in the smallest frame they turn into Pan Zhou, coiling elbows. These form Blocks, strikes and many Qin Na techniques. When these coiled elbows spring open they form the long arm striking techniques which are referred to as dan bian.

Collectively these 3 subsystems form a good basis of Shaolin Kung Fu. combined with the principles you have a very good start. Then individual techniques from the forms can be easily integrated as can the kicks and stances of basic skills. The individual techniques in the forms are called 'ShouBa'. There are hundreds of ShouBa which are fitted together into forms. The form is often more valuable than the individual SHouBa since it shows the combination and strategy of their use. However it is important to know the ShouBa as well and preferably learn it first.

[bawang]

what are they?

big stance, small stance, lead stance, cross stance, losing stance.



Does Songshan Shaolin have a directly applicable set of core concepts like this? I was never taught them

you mean you were never taught basic attack and defence? like basic punches and blocks?

[Shaolindynasty]

Following this , you have a set of principles, formulae, but no actual movements. In fact if you understand these well, you don't even need any moves. But it helps to have inspiration. But what is the logical order of these techniques? There isn't one written out, but I believe it is best to start with 3 essential technique subsystems which help you understand the system.

Yun Ding, Pan Zhou, Dan Bian. (Cloud Peak, Coiling elbow, Single Whip)


This is what i am interested in. Not a progression method but the principles of the system.

Can you explain about these 3 subsystems little more?

[bawang]

some basic attacks are pi, kan, heng, zhi, chuan, ban, liao, gou

[RenDaHai]

This is what i am interested in. Not a progression method but the principles of the system.

Can you explain about these 3 subsystems little more?

I'll try and explain a little;

Yun Ding, It all starts from a circle. This circle can be drawn with your hand. It can be done on the x, y or z axis. Each of these axis are useful. Yun Ding is the particular technique where the circle is drawn over your head. It can be done forewards or backwards. Both hands can be combined doing the same direction, or opposite, both in phase and out of phase (moving together, or first one then the other). The combinations form an array of hand positions, each of which is both a guard and an attack.

These various combinations then collapse and hands make contact with the head and body (or each other) forming triangular structures with the elbow projecting. Again these form many permutations and are the basis of Pan Zhou (the elbows are coiled around the body like a snake). They can be used while locking the opponents arm in between forming a series of Qin Na. Many possibilities to strike and Block (in this case the elbow tends to form a shield as opposed to a parry).

From any of these positions, these structures the hands can be opened to form a 'dan bian' technique. This is a long arm strike where the arms move together as though there is a staff inside them joining both arms. You will be familiar with these from CLF. They are the long swinging attacks. Often in shaolin these are led by the elbow, that is the elbow is moved first then opening into the long arm attack. Usually the hand behind whisks the opponents arm away, pulling their body onto the attack of the hand in front. (leading with the elbow is also a principle, xian chu zhou, hou chu chui, although it does not apply to every tech.).


The hands in each of these movements are interchangeable. The various fists and palms can then be used for most of the techniques forming a new move. (Roof tile palm, willow leaf palm, tigers mouth palm, flying sand palm, flat face palm, crashing palm, bouncing palm, monkeys hand, spear hand, needle threading hand, hook hand, fire hand, golden hand, twin dragon fingers, phoenix fist, hammer fist, chopping palm, slicing palm, the 13 claws, ridge hand, etc. etc.)


then each of these now formed moves can be combined with a different step, the butterfly step, the cross step, the bow step, the twisting step, the pouncing step, the shrinking step, the empty step etc. etc.

And so the thousands of shaolin moves are born. if you train each move individually it is not so useful. It is great to learn the components. Then you can be much more free in your practice. There are many techniques that can not be simply derived from the subsystems above. These are often practiced as individual Shou Ba.

[SHemmati]

"No one has yet organized Shaolin into a Logical syllabus," because it is absolutely impossible to extract such principles for the kung fu of Shaolin temple.

let me describe it: many kung fu styles are "single styles," like Yun Chung quan, for example. such systems have obviously a few observable principles. but some styles are "complex styles," like the kung fu Shaolin temple, which contains all the different substyles that have been created and/or trained by the different generations of the different lineages of Shaolin monks. such a kung fu contains different substyles, which while sharing the technical contents of Shaolin kung fu together, they mount those techniques on different strategies and principles to make different substyles. i.e., as far as a single substyle, such as Xiao Hong quan, is considered you can deduce the general principles, but in the case of Shaolin kung fu as a whole system the answer is: Different substyles, different principles.

however, in contrast with other martial arts, Shaolin kung fu has definitely some specific technical properties that make it to look different from other styles and to look like Shaolin kung fu! but i don't think we can call them principles (can we??!), because they come naturally and there's no need to enlist anything of such type! (but we still can enlist them as properties or differences with other styles.)

[LFJ]

RDH and I spoke about what he's going over now last time we met, but it's very difficult to put into words and be easily understood, especially if you aren't familiar with Shaolin. Although, just a few seconds to demonstrate it makes it very clear. Maybe that's why a lot of our discussions here pertain to history and the like.