CLF forms with multiple roads

[RenDaHai]

Hey Team,

About CLF forms;

(Forgive my Mandarin terminology, I don't know the cantonese)

I hear that some forms like MeiHua (Plum Blossom) and BaGuaQuan (8 Trigrams) have multiple roads in CLF. I.e Part 1, 2, 3 etc. But I rarely get to see them.

Does anyone here practice one form in its complete state, as in all roads of MeiHua for example? Any Videos?

What other forms have multiple roads?

[CLFNole]

Not actually correct...there are different versions of Plum Flower (moi fah) but that is generally due to lineages. As far as the CLF bagua forms there are 9 different forms each with a different name:

Dai bagua kuen
Siu bagua kuen
Yee Jong bagua kuen
Da ting bagua kuen
Hung yan bagua kuen
Da fu bagua kuen
Moi fah bagua kuen
Baat gwa sum kuen

The first 8 represent each of the 8 triagrams and the last is the center (baat gwa sum or heart of bagua).

[hskwarrior]

I hear that some forms like MeiHua (Plum Blossom) and BaGuaQuan (8 Trigrams) have multiple roads in CLF. I.e Part 1, 2, 3 etc. But I rarely get to see them.

not sure about that. my lineage doesn't practice the Plum Blossom stuff or bagua kuen. but we have full forms, and short versions of the full form.

[hskwarrior]

Dai bagua kuen
Siu bagua kuen
Yee Jong bagua kuen
Da ting bagua kuen
Hung yan bagua kuen
Da fu bagua kuen
Moi fah bagua kuen
Baat gwa sum kuen

The first 8 represent each of the 8 triagrams and the last is the center (baat gwa sum or heart of bagua).

according to EJ there: Lung Ying Baat Kwa Kuen is the 9th one

[CLFNole]

No lung ying bagua is a different form outside the 9 bagua sets.

The one I left out was Ng Ying Bagua Kuen (5-Animal Bagua).

[hskwarrior]

Ng Ying Bagua Kuen (5-Animal Bagua)

that is the true name of our 5 animal form

[CLFNole]

that is the true name of our 5 animal form

Uh oh Frank we don't want to open that can of worms...could there be a connection after all 😄. Just kidding

[hskwarrior]

lololol....................

[RenDaHai]

Thanks for the replies!

Any more forms have multiple roads? Luohan Quan, Jingang Quan, Tiger, Leopard?

If it is multiple roads because of different lineages then that is not so interesting... But multiple roads like a sequence of forms, that would be interesting.

Also with the 9 BaGua forms, do people practice them all together? Are they a logical progression?

[hskwarrior]

my HSCLF lineage doesn't have too many forms. a good amount compared to others, but ours are designed not to repeat.


If it is multiple roads because of different lineages then that is not so interesting... But multiple roads like a sequence of forms, that would be interesting.

yeah, CLF may share the same names of forms but the material is all different. we have three different types of ping Kuen

[CLFNole]

Never heard of them being done together and CLF doesn't have roads the way northern styles do.

[hskwarrior]

the "multiple roads" terminology confuses me since its not used in our style.

does this mean multiple versions? is that of sets? or something like various versions of panther, tiger, crane, snake, dragon....etc?????

[Shaolindynasty]

Roads are seperate sections that can be learned independent then linked together for a full form later. In shaolin they have dahong yilu, erlu, sanlu etc. CLF doesn't really have that in the sense of a northern style but it has "large and small" versions of forms. We have for instance siu kau da kuen and dai kau da kuen. The idea is similar to xiao hong quan and dahong quan

[hskwarrior]

Roads are seperate sections that can be learned independent then linked together for a full form later.

ahhh i got you. right on. Our schools Sup Ji Kau Da is that way, borken down into 3 sections that can all be perormed independantly or in the whole. So I guess it would have 3 roads then by what you're saying.

[CLFNole]

The small and big versions are typically for demo versions and are more less cut down versions with dai or big typically just the original form. For example we have Siu ping kuen which is just a short version of ping kuen or what some call dai ping kuen.

[RenDaHai]

Well, Kind of...

Seperate roads are not always a form broken into sections, but a form which uses a similar style as another form.

For example the techniques of Shaolins XiaoHongQuan 1,2,3,4 Da Hong Quan 1,2 All go together very well and form a complete syllabus. As in it is more useful to learn these than to learn say, 1 luohan, 1 jingang, 1 meihua, 1 hong and 1 tongbei. They are a logical progression of techniques.

I would suggest if there are 9 Bagua forms in CLF then they are probably intended to go together well. As in they build on each other.

For example In SOngShan XiaoHongQuan road 2 shows counter techniques if the techniques from road 1 fail. So it is more useful to you to learn XHQ 2 than an entirely different form. Perhaps this is the same for CLFs BaGua Quan? Asi in perhaps the 9 go together very well and compliment each other?

[CLFNole]

CLF doesn't really work in that manner. As far as the bagua sets as I said earlier each one represents one if the 8 sides of the triagram with the 9 form representing the yin/yang circle in the center or the heart of bagua. I have never heard of the sets being taught or performed in any order as each one is individual.

[Shaolindynasty]

Not really because all the forms in clf are fairly similar due to the fact they all have the same base concepts the ten elements. Different form doesnt mean different style in clf

[CLFNole]

What I meant by individual was that they are not made to link together but rather stand on their own.

[RenDaHai]

Not really because all the forms in clf are fairly similar due to the fact they all have the same base concepts the ten elements. Different form doesnt mean different style in clf

Ok I see. I mean, in SongShan of course all the forms are compatable and use the same principles....

I just mean, if they chose to name them with a naming scheme perhaps there is more than the name that is common as this is how it tends to work with northern forms.

Does anyone here know all 9 Bagua forms? Are there videos of all 9 on YouTube? Or wait, is it 10 in total?

I'm finding it difficult to search as there seem to be a lot of different spellings....

[CLFNole]

You may find a few on YouTube but that's about it. Don't think very many know all 9 except from some directly from the Chan Family line. Most schools have a few but not all. I know only 3.

[Shaolindynasty]

Clfnole My response was to rendahai. I should have quoted him we just responded at the same time. I understand and agree with what you are saying.

[CLFNole]

It's all good...I wasn't quite who you were responding to sure since the way I stated all forms are individual could be misunderstood since it was kind of vague.

[Sambo]

There are too many forms in clf for you to learn them all well. I think they were designed to teach different energies & each is suited to different body types. So you only concentrate on a few from each level.

any of the more experienced guys correct me if i'm wrong?

I think the hung gar arrow hand? form has 3 sections?

[CLFNole]

To me there really is no right or wrong answer as to how many forms to know. It can all depend on what your goals are. I was explaining to a student the other day that if you want to pass a style from one generation to the next then you should try to learn all the forms from your respective lineage but if teaching or passing along a style does not interest you, then all you need is a few hand & weapon sets.

Whether or not you can be good at a large number of sets all comes down to how much you practice becuase afterall as SD mentioned earlier all of the forms are based off the seeds so there is a lot of repetition and overlap.

[Shaolindynasty]

Adding to what CLFnole said it also depends on what you mean by "get good at". Most practitioners have only a few forms that they specialize in but if you are planning to teach or just want to have a more rounded knowledge of the system it is good to be proficient in many forms. While each form has the same conceptual base, each can offer a different perspective on how the concepts can be applied.

[Jimbo]

Cool thread.

When I trained Tanglang quan (Mantis) as well as some Long Fist when I lived in Taiwan, some sets were named as roads, like 10 Roads Spring Leg (Tan Tui), Er Lu Mai Fu (2nd road 'Ambush'), Si Lu (4th road) Cha Quan, etc., in Long Fist; and Tanglang's Zhai Yao (essentials, or best of) series, of which I only learned the 2nd, as examples. Northern style sets, at least the ones I trained, tend to go in lines right to left, or vice versa, sometimes with other angles or circular footwork thrown in. The Tan Tui was literally 10 lines back and forth. The other sets named as 'roads' were usually following a theme.

Southern style sets operate differently. They often go in cross-patterns front-back-side-to-side, etc. The main CLF lineage of my school's sets usually run straight forward and back, with off-angles included.

For CLF, I do agree that if you're going to teach, you should retain all the material you learned to pass down; if you aren't practicing everything a lot, at least have video access to some of the less-practiced stuff. Depending on the lineage, that's a lot of material.

I've never personally known of any CLF practitioner that practices anything even close hundreds of forms. Even so, since I stopped being a CLF teacher 6 years ago, I've whittled down the material I will practice by a big margin. In our lineage, the biggest amount of material consists of brief 2-person application drills, or sets. But there's a LOT of them. Add to that the individual and 2-person hand and weapon sets, all other drills, etc., in our lineage, and unless you only teach and practice KF all day every day as your profession, it can be a bit much, to say the least. Having too much material to maintain is like constantly owing money and never being paid up.

My own, individual take on it is that, even though CLF sets follow the same principles (even our main lineage, although it does differ from other CLF I've seen), if you aren't planning on being a teacher, it might behoove you to choose which material you like to maintain for yourself. With plenty for variety, but not so much that you're only trying to remember or maintain, rather than improve upon.

[Ben Gash]

Well, Kind of...

Seperate roads are not always a form broken into sections, but a form which uses a similar style as another form.

For example the techniques of Shaolins XiaoHongQuan 1,2,3,4 Da Hong Quan 1,2 All go together very well and form a complete syllabus. As in it is more useful to learn these than to learn say, 1 luohan, 1 jingang, 1 meihua, 1 hong and 1 tongbei. They are a logical progression of techniques.

I would suggest if there are 9 Bagua forms in CLF then they are probably intended to go together well. As in they build on each other.

For example In SOngShan XiaoHongQuan road 2 shows counter techniques if the techniques from road 1 fail. So it is more useful to you to learn XHQ 2 than an entirely different form. Perhaps this is the same for CLFs BaGua Quan? Asi in perhaps the 9 go together very well and compliment each other?

Depends on how you want to look at it. Fundamentally there are 9 sets because that's what corresponds to the bagua. The bagua forms were essentially the main body of the Chan family's closed door material. Yes they each express different principles, but it's actually pretty difficult to be good at all of them. Physical attributes play a role here. So I know 3 bagua forms, but there's only one that I'm particularly good at, as I'm neither quick enough to do Siu Bot Gwa well nor forceful enough to do Dau Fu Bot Gwa well.
As for practising them together in sequence, good luck, each form is 150 moves, doing one of them well is a major effort.
The other names (Sup Ji, Mui Fa etc) typically refer to footwork patterns, not a subset of skills like in longfist.

[Kellen Bassette]

I've got a question on CLF forms. Since Chan Heung recorded his forms, why do the different lineages have different versions of some major forms?

Is this from different interpretations of poetry? Did the forms just evolve differently over the years or are they completely different forms that were developed or brought into the system by later masters?

For instance I've seen two distinctly different versions of Siu Moi Fa. Are they different forms with the same name or just different versions from different lineages?

[hskwarrior]

I've got a question on CLF forms. Since Chan Heung recorded his forms, why do the different lineages have different versions of some major forms?

it was developed seperately by different people.


Is this from different interpretations of poetry? Did the forms just evolve differently over the years or are they completely different forms that were developed or brought into the system by later masters?

please. don't try to absorb our treausred CLF into SHAOLIN Do. you don't want to open that can of killer worms. the fighters of CLF couldn't care less about poetry opposed to how good your skills were. poetry has nothing to do with the different branches of CLF.


For instance I've seen two distinctly different versions of Siu Moi Fa. Are they different forms with the same name or just different versions from different lineages?

because you're shaolin do, i would like to know why you're researching CLF? i can't hold it back, the way shaolin do does stuff is absolutely sickening. please leave our gung fu alone. its not for you.

[Kellen Bassette]

Relax HSK, I'm traditional Shaolin....nothing to do with Shaolin Do, I'm interested in all MA, particularly CMA...and I think CLF is a great art with great forms. If there was any closer than 4 hours to me I would probably train it.

Since there isn't, I work on my other styles and sometimes watch clips of training/forms/fights because I enjoy Kung Fu.

[Kellen Bassette]

I asked about the poems, because I wasn't sure if CLF uses them to record forms as Songshan and some other styles do, or if they were transcribed differently.

[Ben Gash]

The scripts weren't written by Chan Heung, they were written by his grandchildren.

[Shaolindynasty]

The scripts weren't written by Chan Heung, they were written by his grandchildren

Yes choy lay fut was already passed through 3 generations by this point

[Kellen Bassette]

Yes choy lay fut was already passed through 3 generations by this point

It's still cool that they did that...It's a pretty simple thing to do and it would have been nice if some of the other, older systems left a written record of their forms to the next generations.

It's not really a bad thing that forms evolve as time goes on, but it would be nice to have a real record of what they looked like from the first generations.

[CLFNole]

The Chan Family have written manuals for all the forms known as kuen po's. I have never seen one but I believe they consist of the Chinese characters for each movement and some have hand drawn pictures. Since we now have modern technology it's easier to just record each form in one's lineage. I have one for my lineage and it is good for reference every now and then.