Center Line Capture

[Yoshiyahu]

Taking the Centerline?

In your lineage what techniques, training routines or drills do you practice to develop intended instincts and habits that will manifest naturally during a fighting scenario...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Sil Lim Tao gives you the center line concepts.

[Bacon]

Footwork footwork footwork.

Without proper footwork all the other drills which help take the centerline from the inside or outside like chi sao, pak sao, lap sao, or sparring won't help one bit.

[JPinAZ]

Taking the Centerline?

In your lineage what techniques, training routines or drills do you practice to develop intended instincts and habits that will manifest naturally during a fighting scenario...

The question itself doesn't make any sense to me. What do you mean by 'taking centerline'? To me, it seems you are taking a key concept in WC and, as usual, asking someone to simplify it to some techniques and drills. What's the point of that? This should be happening in almost every single WC class already! Don't you train WC?
Asking someone what techniques do we use to drill the idea of centerline is to broad and vague anyway, it's in almost everything we do in WC!

For example, in HFY we have Occupy Space with Forward Energy concept which directly supports Centerline theories. This idea is drilled and focused on at just about every level in our training. I would have to list almost every single technique, drill and training platform we have! Is that what you are really asking? :confused:

[JPinAZ]

Footwork footwork footwork.

Without proper footwork all the other drills which help take the centerline from the inside or outside like chi sao, pak sao, lap sao, or sparring won't help one bit.

With a few exceptions, I disagree. While I do agree proper footwork is important, I think we can talk/drill centerline concepts and ideas without really having to mention or use footwork at all.

In most cases, footwork could be viewed as necessary when we lose centerline or centerline has shifted (as a way to reorient/realign/regain it), not as a way to define or drill it. I can 'have centerline' and 'take it' as yoshi would say without moving at all (or very minimal footwork) - that is what maximum efficiency in WC is all about! If the first thing I am taught to do is use footwork, then I have no clear way of defining A-to-B centerline. And without centerline, there is no WC IMO

[Ali. R]

Footwork footwork footwork.

Without proper footwork all the other drills which help take the centerline from the inside or outside like chi sao, pak sao, lap sao, or sparring won't help one bit.

Let’ say it’s more on the ideal of positioning and timing, don’t get me wrong, “footwork” (moving stance) is a very good countermeasure offensively/defensively but; without good timing and positioning “footwork” is useless and the feet will not follow the hands naturally.

Therefore resorting to the idea of speed only; in which could put and keep you in a bad situation; because positioning and timing can deal with speed… In ‘wing chun’ there is a saying; “he goes fast, you go slow, he goes hard, you go soft; all based strongly on the concepts of jamming, wedging, positioning and timing…

Let’s take the whole ideal and premise into everyday life. Timing/Speed: Timing will put you in the right position, while speed will put you in a situation of haste. Positioning: Positioning by design (combat,) is to be up front or first, in which is usually derived from timing; like the everyday saying, “I was in the right place, at the right time”…

It’s not how fast, but how well one can execute his/her intension. It doesn’t matter which way you step, as long as these two attributes are first (positioning/timing). And with that being said: ‘Mon Sao drills’ (asking hands) while using the 8 blocks and strikes would be most affective to develop a strong awareness of the centerline in applacation.

I was taught that posture/structure is the forerunner of positioning that supplements timing which helps educes speed. The gears in a watch can help produce the right time; but if the gears are not flushed then the watch will run too fast or slow and the hands of the watch will never be in the right position of showing time, then it would be consider broken.

The ‘Mon Sao drills’ (centerline development) upper extremities are the gears, while the “foot work” (moving stance) would be consider the hands of the watch. Again; it’s not how fast, but how well one can execute his/her intension.

[imperialtaichi]

Therefore resorting to the idea of speed only; in which could put and keep you in a bad situation; because positioning and timing can deal with speed… In ‘wing chun’ there is a saying; “he goes fast, you go slow, he goes hard, you go soft; all based strongly on the concepts of jamming, wedging, positioning and timing…

For me, it's all about space and time (yes, geeky.)

Occupy space, dominate time.

To me, speed is of utmost importance; but, it's not about physical speed, but how quickly to complete the task required.

So focus on simple efficient and effective tasks, a step at a time, and you will always be faster than an in-efficient opponent.

[Yoshiyahu]

Both Ali and Imperial have pretty good points!!! I learn alot thanks guys!!!




For me, it's all about space and time (yes, geeky.)

Occupy space, dominate time.

To me, speed is of utmost importance; but, it's not about physical speed, but how quickly to complete the task required.

So focus on simple efficient and effective tasks, a step at a time, and you will always be faster than an in-efficient opponent.


Let’ say it’s more on the ideal of positioning and timing, don’t get me wrong, “footwork” (moving stance) is a very good countermeasure offensively/defensively but; without good timing and positioning “footwork” is useless and the feet will not follow the hands naturally.

Therefore resorting to the idea of speed only; in which could put and keep you in a bad situation; because positioning and timing can deal with speed… In ‘wing chun’ there is a saying; “he goes fast, you go slow, he goes hard, you go soft; all based strongly on the concepts of jamming, wedging, positioning and timing…

Let’s take the whole ideal and premise into everyday life. Timing/Speed: Timing will put you in the right position, while speed will put you in a situation of haste. Positioning: Positioning by design (combat,) is to be up front or first, in which is usually derived from timing; like the everyday saying, “I was in the right place, at the right time”…

It’s not how fast, but how well one can execute his/her intension. It doesn’t matter which way you step, as long as these two attributes are first (positioning/timing). And with that being said: ‘Mon Sao drills’ (asking hands) while using the 8 blocks and strikes would be most affective to develop a strong awareness of the centerline in applacation.

I was taught that posture/structure is the forerunner of positioning that supplements timing which helps educes speed. The gears in a watch can help produce the right time; but if the gears are not flushed then the watch will run too fast or slow and the hands of the watch will never be in the right position of showing time, then it would be consider broken.

The ‘Mon Sao drills’ (centerline development) upper extremities are the gears, while the “foot work” (moving stance) would be consider the hands of the watch. Again; it’s not how fast, but how well one can execute his/her intension.

[Yoshiyahu]

Good Point JPnaz...I agree. I like how you are explaining things.

I would add to that...That protecting my centerline I want to face my opponent but not run dead into him. But flank either with footwork or with proper posistion and yes technique which could shift his attacking line from my centerline. But allowing me dominat posistion of having access to his CL...

Like for instance. With footwork I step to blind side of his lead hand while pressing forward with my stance simultaneously jamming his lead hand or lead strike while counter striking at the same time. This here gives me his center. But i continue to dominate and control his center because once he looses the dominate posistion he will be fighting to escape and manuever out of that compromising posistion. So then I attempt to utilize my tools continously to keep him there in a compromise posistion while constantly jamming, striking an advancing with my horse into his centre!



With a few exceptions, I disagree. While I do agree proper footwork is important, I think we can talk/drill centerline concepts and ideas without really having to mention or use footwork at all.

In most cases, footwork could be viewed as necessary when we lose centerline or centerline has shifted (as a way to reorient/realign/regain it), not as a way to define or drill it. I can 'have centerline' and 'take it' as yoshi would say without moving at all (or very minimal footwork) - that is what maximum efficiency in WC is all about! If the first thing I am taught to do is use footwork, then I have no clear way of defining A-to-B centerline. And without centerline, there is no WC IMO

[Bacon]

With a few exceptions, I disagree. While I do agree proper footwork is important, I think we can talk/drill centerline concepts and ideas without really having to mention or use footwork at all.

In most cases, footwork could be viewed as necessary when we lose centerline or centerline has shifted (as a way to reorient/realign/regain it), not as a way to define or drill it. I can 'have centerline' and 'take it' as yoshi would say without moving at all (or very minimal footwork) - that is what maximum efficiency in WC is all about! If the first thing I am taught to do is use footwork, then I have no clear way of defining A-to-B centerline. And without centerline, there is no WC IMO

Your centerline exists regardless of where you step. And regardless of where you step you should be facing your opponent so you're on target.

But I can step in, jam you, and take your center without using my hands; just footwork.

Hands are secondary. You can trap without hands but not without feet. If you can trap and hit without stepping then you're already in range to hit and there's no need or point to trap. Footwork let's you move into range to hit and generate power. If your footwork is bad I don't care what your hands are like I can throw you out easily.

Footwork first, hands second.

[Ali. R]

There’s some thing’s about timing that I’d love to see when applied on my opponent’s before the first hit in which they do see coming; they can’t help but stand there like a deer in the headlight.

And after the shellacking I’d had one guy say, “It’s like being hit with a 300lb waterbed that exploded around me on impact”.

When timing is mastered, it would be terribly hard for your opponent to even think about catching up to your next movement; and with that alone (timing) compounded with a solid strike, your opponent’s ‘data entry’ would be forever so slow and incomplete.

It’s feels like you’re getting your but kicked across the ‘Rubicon’ there and back, and it’s nothing that you can do about it, but watch. One guy here in Louisville said this after a rude awakening, “while I’m at home getting hammered, she out getting nailed”. It’s a sad, sad, situation.

And you should be able to do the same going twice as slow as your opponent. That’s why I truly love the concept on timing.

[JPinAZ]

For me, it's all about space and time (yes, geeky.)

Occupy space, dominate time.

To me, speed is of utmost importance; but, it's not about physical speed, but how quickly to complete the task required.

So focus on simple efficient and effective tasks, a step at a time, and you will always be faster than an in-efficient opponent.

Uh oh, you're starting to sound like a Hung Fa Yi guy now!! :eek::D
(And being one, this actually makes perfect sense to me and IMO is what WCK is really all about!)

[JPinAZ]

Your centerline exists regardless of where you step.

Agreed! But this is only true for self centerline, given you haven't distorted it when you moved. I was specificly talking about more than just this your self centerline. I figured this was a given :)


And regardless of where you step you should be facing your opponent so you're on target.

Agreed again. Still not what I was talking about becuase facing and self centerline isn't all there is to 'A-to-B centerline'. Without at least one set reference point as constant (which you can't have if both you and your opponent are moving), it's pretty impossible to have any real A-to-B engagement centerline - you'll always be chasing it.

Why start running around with needless footwork if you can just stand your ground and deal with the attack as it comes and then react to the energies you feel on the bridge and only move if you have too? (feet follow the hands)
Is this not taught at your school?
And I'm not trying to be smart, I ask because moving around and using footwork needlessly without even attempting to deal with the initial attack on centerline just sounds so foreign to me. I'm also not advocating NEVER moving pre contact, that would be silly. But if the original centerline is still intact, why give up your reference point?


But I can step in, jam you, and take your center without using my hands; just footwork.

Haha, I'd really like to see a clip of your idea of you dealing with real punches being thrown at your with your hands down and just running around with footwork. Not saying it can't be done, but sure would be entertaining to see!


Hands are secondary. You can trap without hands but not without feet. If you can trap and hit without stepping then you're already in range to hit and there's no need or point to trap. Footwork let's you move into range to hit and generate power. If your footwork is bad I don't care what your hands are like I can throw you out easily.

Footwork first, hands second.

I tend to think of using my whole body vs just feet or hands (difference between Biu Jong and Jong Sau for example). Neither is primary or secondary IMO, but the saying 'hands follow feet, feet follow hands' guides when you should move or not move.

But, if a punch is coming in, I can't see how you're going to effectively & efficiently defend on the original A-to-B centerline without putting your hands up, occupying space and deciding what should be done after the bridge is made (given there even is one).
Now, if you chose to leave centerline and just use footwork by running around or away from punches to jam with just your feet :confused:, I'd say (with no offence meant) that your ideas centerline & efficiency of WCK greatly differs from mine and we're at an impass in the discussion ;)

[JPinAZ]

Good Point JPnaz...I agree. I like how you are explaining things.

I would add to that...That protecting my centerline I want to face my opponent but not run dead into him. But flank either with footwork or with proper posistion and yes technique which could shift his attacking line from my centerline. But allowing me dominat posistion of having access to his CL...

Like for instance. With footwork I step to blind side of his lead hand while pressing forward with my stance simultaneously jamming his lead hand or lead strike while counter striking at the same time. This here gives me his center. But i continue to dominate and control his center because once he looses the dominate posistion he will be fighting to escape and manuever out of that compromising posistion. So then I attempt to utilize my tools continously to keep him there in a compromise posistion while constantly jamming, striking an advancing with my horse into his centre!

Sure, I guess I can agree with most of this. Things like gate theory and time/space considerations should always be considered.

To better understand what you mean, when you say "With footwork I step to blind side of his lead hand while pressing forward with my stance simultaneously jamming his lead hand or lead strike while counter striking at the same time." Are you referring to prior to engagement or afterwards based on the energy on the bridge?

[Ali. R]

Footwork first, hands second.

The feet should always follow the hands and not the other way around and that's even when kicking, unless the practitioner chooses to stay away and not make bridge contact; while running away and while trying to hit and block well after the fact.

You can’t counter -or- attack without moving the hands first (kicking or striking). Don’t take my word on it, try it yourself; when sparring take your step first and then throw your punch second, and I’m sure you'll get timed out (countered) very easily, ever time.

[JPinAZ]

The feet should always follow the hands and not the other way around and that's even when kicking, unless the practitioner chooses to stay away and not make bridge contact; while running away and while trying to hit and block well after the fact.

You can’t counter -or- attack without moving the hands first (kicking or striking). Don’t take my word on it, try it yourself; when sparring take your step first and then throw your punch second, and I’m sure you'll get timed out (countered) very easily, ever time.

I realize this wasn't directed to me, but only thing I would dissagree with here is saying the feet should always follow the hands. Why paint yourself into a corner with absolutes like 'always'? :)
There are many instances when the feet will tell the hands where to go, but I'd agree that since most attacks are in the upper gates, the hands usually are engaging first and giving the feet direction (feet follow hands). But this isn't the case in all situations and it does work both ways.

[Ali. R]

If you step first, you would never have complete balance of power or a good center of gravity, jamming up your own attempt of attack, the feet moves first usually in defense and that’s without moving the hands at all.

Just get out of your set and start to walk around and you will see that the hands will move first and that’s just a natural reaction of the human body; no matter how hard you try not to make the hands move first, they will anyway; that’s only if you move naturally.

The key to all of this is to be natural, just as stepping into a jab; the jab is first because it’s what you’ll be stepping into, don’t jab into the step, but step into the jab.

Try stepping first (when walking) and then swing your hands afterwards, it would be one of the most awkward things you do all day.

[Ali. R]

All I’m saying is this, be and stay natural, try this at home (walking); take a big step first and then make a big swing of the hands, then take a big swing of the hands first and a big step behind that, and all will come into light.

If those feet do not follow the hands, then you would only be fighting against yourself.

[JPinAZ]

feet follows hand, hands follow feet is more of a bridging concept and how one maintains structural alignment, personal space, advantageous positioning, facing, pursuit, etc in reaction to the energy on the bridge. Which follows which is primarily dictated by what limb the energy is being reacted on.
Walking around and swinging your arms really has no bearing in that discussion. Walking is a controlled fwd fall, has nothing to do with swinging the arms first or last. Try crossing your arms and walking.. ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

You all are making too much of this center line thing. This time, space, and other stuff aside, Wing Chun is a very simple system. The only center line that matters is your own. As a Wing Chun fighter you will usually be face on while almost all others will be side on. Or close to side on. Everything you do is usually dead on your own center, giving you the ability to use all your weapons with all the power you have. Your goal is to avoid being in your opponents center line, making him have to continually adjust or reposition himself in an effort to defend or attack. It is not important to attack his center mass.
Now, thing is, if an opponent fights side on or near side on, the part of his body facing you is his true center line and that is what you want to avoid by angling as you move in or out, forcing him to adjust his position. If you shift or shuffle for position you do so with your center line facing him at all times, which gives you the ability attack or defend at any time during the move. You are always ****ed and ready to fire.

[Ali. R]

feet follows hand, hands follow feet is more of a bridging concept and how one maintains structural alignment, personal space, advantageous positioning, facing, pursuit, etc in reaction to the energy on the bridge. Which follows which is primarily dictated by what limb the energy is being reacted on.
Walking around and swinging your arms really has no bearing in that discussion. Walking is a controlled fwd fall, has nothing to do with swinging the arms first or last. Try crossing your arms and walking.. ;)


What you’re doing is literally putting the cart before the horse, if the feet moves before the hands while attempting to make bridge contact, then one's penetration of the fighting lines would be in a none existent situation, because you’re asking with the feet and the hands.

The key is to seek and sink the bridge with bridge contact first and by just stepping in without the hands being a precursor; you would put yourself in defensive situation rather than an offensive one, if your opponent jams or wedge or even attack your attempt.

[Ali. R]

Try crossing your arms and walking.. ;):confused:

Try stepping first and then throwing your jab behind the step. It will be void of any true power and balance.

[Yoshiyahu]

Sure, I guess I can agree with most of this. Things like gate theory and time/space considerations should always be considered.

To better understand what you mean, when you say "With footwork I step to blind side of his lead hand while pressing forward with my stance simultaneously jamming his lead hand or lead strike while counter striking at the same time." Are you referring to prior to engagement or afterwards based on the energy on the bridge?

Excellent point...In truth..Both Prior to engagment and also afterwards based on the energy of the bridge...I say both because in a real situtation there are no static postures for fighting or sparring. If my opponent is still I do A+B as entry or closing the gap technique...If my opponent is attacking or advancing I do A+B based off of what i feel from his bridge once I intercept his incoming attack an yielded to his force or turned it off. But I am simply using basic scenarios I think everyone should be able to relate to from sparring! Realistically its all about what works for you and how good your opponent is at countering, timing an accuracy...

[Ali. R]

If one doesn’t make bridge contact then he/she is headhunting (boxing or kick boxing). Your opponent will attack you or you will attack your opponent, then bridge contact will be made. If he likes to run then let him run, but don’t chase him/her.

When bridge contact is made one should be able to bridge walk your opponent’s fighting lines, but if one chooses to move this way and that way; but always away from bridge contact, one will have to keep starting over to find a good hitting range (with power).

When bridge contact is made stay with him/her by simply following your opponent’s offensive strike back to his/her mother line when they’re attempting to use the other hand, this is how you gain and keep the centerline when in action (timing)… This way it doesn’t make a difference in which way anyone moves because it only happens during bridge contact.

It’s simple, stay with comes and follow with what goes; meaning the upper extremities as well as the lower extremities, if you just try to hit and run you will never gain control of the fighting lines, and will only ware yourself out with nothing to show for it.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am sorry to disagree with some here but to me it is obvious that the feet lead, body follows and hands end.

Consider stance turning, the feet move then the waist followed by the body then the hands.

Same with stepping with a punch. If the foot has not landed prior to the punch then there is less power transmitted to the opponent/target.

Jack Dempsey used to do a "falling punch" again the foot moved first and landed prior to the hand landing.

If you opt to lead with your hands then you will not have the structure of the body behind the movement.

Of course, feel welcome to feel differently, but practice the movements yourself and then tell me that the hands move first.

[Ali. R]

So you’re saying don’t step into the jab, but jab into the step. The feet should always follow the hands, like in bli jee; the hands move first in the fat sao set to make the pivot happen, just as the hands move first along with the elbow in the elbow set to make the feet move or follow up with a pivot.

I have never moved my feet before throwing my elbows; I’ve always let the flow of the elbows move my feet into position/pivot, and I’ve always let my punch move my feet when pivoting and not the other way around.

Heck, we're all entitle to our own opinion, But I’ll just stick with the training forms and what they dictate (facts).

Good post Dave.

[Ali. R]

Try pivoting first and then throw your elbow second. Then throw your elbow first as the feet follows up with the 'pivot'. And all will come into light.

[Sihing73]

Ali,

I will ask you to answer me one question;

When you punch, whether it be a jab or whatever, does you punch land before or after your foot touches the ground?

[Ali. R]

My hands move first to start the momentum of the step/entry, while my back leg follows to complete the balance of power.

So technically; the front step catches up with the ‘Mon Sao’ (asking) or strike itself, to help spread the balance of power evenly.

The momentum of body unity starts with the pop of the upper extremities, and then everything follows naturally behind that, just as the forms dictates.

But, to answer your question, the foot lands at the same time as the strike.

[imperialtaichi]

I focus on attack, and speed.

The less I move, the faster (and more invisible) I am; therefore, ideally the initial attack I prefer not to move my feet (except of course, I am going in to attack from a distance, then virtually I always use my kicks, but also kept as invisible as possible). Once the opponent's momentum/structure/mind/rhythm is broken, I can step to more advantageous positions.

Centre-line wise, I am more focused on destroying/occupying the opponent's centre than having to adhere to my own, which may limit me. There are two punches in the "Phoenix Eye Hammer" movement, the most fundamental move in the KL22; first one comes from outside-in, the second one comes from inside-out.

[imperialtaichi]

But, to answer your question, the foot lands at the same time as the strike.

splitting hair here, but I make my strike lands a split second (1/100sec) before my foot lands.

[Sihing73]

I will agree to disagree :D

I do various exercises such as arm swinging and if I keep my feet static then the body will follow but that is because my feet are stationary. When turning my feet then I would say it is possible for both to turn together, however when doing a movement where the arms perform a motion to completion then the feet land first and complete the motion before the hands.

The body gives power and structure to the hands so the body must be in proper position to supplement the hands. To me, this entails the feet leading the hands.

Then again, in this medium, it is possible we may be closer than it seems.

To be honest, all I care about is that when I do something it works :rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

splitting hair here, but I make my strike lands a split second (1/100sec) before my foot lands.

That’s great, and I love the ‘Republican Party’ and they love me too!

[imperialtaichi]

To be honest, all I care about is that when I do something it works :rolleyes:

In the end, that's all that matters. Amen!

[Vajramusti]

That’s great, and I love the ‘Republican Party’ and they love me too!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Me too Ali . And the senior senator from Kentucky as well. And Karl Rove..aw shucks.

So far from home and so close to Texas.

Imperial taichi is ok- whatever works for you.

Onward through the fog..

[Yoshiyahu]

In practice one Steps and punches and will strike after the body weight has transferred ie the foot lands first...But this is merely san shou drilling in the air with your steps or in YKS San Sik...But in reality when your fighting you will throw multiple punches...Some strikes will land before you move, others while your moving and others after you move...in sparring there is no such thing as the foot lands first or last...Because your intial goal is to just strike them, strike em hard, strike to do damage and strike them often...Now you have this theory and that theory...

One says landing before the strike will give time for your body mass to converge...others say strike before the foots lands an that will give added ump at the end of your punch...But are mere theory...Trying hitting a heavy bag an see which one gives you more force...Then judge off that...But still bags dont move away from a punch on their own...So again you need to spar an see what works best an what you can actually land while fighting...chances are some nuisances of this theory and that theory got out the door...But frankly...The whole idea about strikng before you step or after you step is juxtapose as shifting on the balls or heels...Different schools different things for different reasons...But certain things we all do regardless. Personally Imma do both...Because when im sparring i aint concern about striking before or after i step...my stepping is to occupy his space, inner gate an add pressure to my attacks by thrusting through the door...

[Sihing73]

Hello,

In training one should try to come as close to perfection as possible.
Knowing that in application things will rarely go as planned.
However, by ingraining the proper body mechanics in training, the attributes developed will be more likely to carry over even if done without perfection.

My main reason for stressing feet first is that it permits the body to be set properly so your strike will land with proper structure. If you throw a punch without stepping, unless you are sitting, your body will naturally follow the punch and you will fall forward. However, if your punch is powered from the ground, through the feet and rest of the body, then you will not only have greater power but better stability as well.

You need a stable base both to exert and accept power, imho.

[Sihing73]

Morning,

You know all this talk about punch leading feet etc got me to thinking.

Where does the power from your punch come from?
If it comes from the arm then I guess you can throw your punch however you wish.
However, if the power does not come from the arm, but from the body behind the arm then would that not entail the punch following the body/feet??

Curious about how others view this.

[imperialtaichi]

Morning,

You know all this talk about punch leading feet etc got me to thinking.

Where does the power from your punch come from?
If it comes from the arm then I guess you can throw your punch however you wish.
However, if the power does not come from the arm, but from the body behind the arm then would that not entail the punch following the body/feet??

Curious about how others view this.

I use my fists like hammers; I don't push the target, I hit the target.

I need as much rooting/grounding as one would need hammering a nail into the wall.

[Ali. R]

Onward through the fog..

Most high beams couldn’t cut through this ‘fog’, or maybe we should blame it on ‘Global Warming’.

[Sihing73]

Most high beams couldn’t cut through this ‘fog’, or maybe we should blame it on ‘Global Warming’.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they warn against using "High Beams" in fog?
Something about the glare bouncing back ;)

You know it is funny I met with a Xing Yi Sifu the other day and he mentioned how if you got a Chinese Sifu, Korean Master and Japanese Sensie together the Chinese Sifu would always win. But if you added a second Chinese Sifu to the same or any variation of the equation one of the others would win as the two Chinese would be too busy arguing over who had the "correct" method. I told him he should check out a Wing Chun forum to see just how bad things could get...:eek:

I am expecting to log into this forum one day and see a question about how hot ones bathwater should be :rolleyes: Naturally no one will agree, I am sure some would even state their Wing Chun is too deadly for them to bathe, lol.

[Ali. R]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they warn against using "High Beams" in fog? Something about the glare bouncing back ;)

Yep, because that’s all I see being used here on this subject (In which is a reflection on one’s skill level), and; I thought I’ve ready answered your one question.

[Ali. R]

The bum of the year, this guy cried for his title back after losing it to ‘Patterson’, and cried so loud and offend, that they striped ‘Patterson’ of the title and give it back to ‘Khan’ without fighting.

Then Khan turns around and gets knocked out by 'Danny Garcia' in thr 4th round of his first cry baby defense. Another one dimensional fighter bites the dust. I’ve seen this guy leaving as quickly as he made it on the boxing scene.

Khan has the faster hands, but got timed out by a guy that knew how to get in a better position. Speed is nothing without timing and positioning; don’t take my word for it.

Or maybe he should of jab into the step?

http://youtu.be/CpCYemEqVvg

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1196298]Or maybe he should of jab into the step?[QUOTE]


Actually, it would be more correct to say "Step into the Jab" as the step goes first. The jab would follow the step ;)

And yes, if he punched with his body in proper structure due to superior positioning, drawing power from the ground he may have done better.

Of course, you must admit that he is fighting at a high competitive level which we are not so while we can say all we want, it matters little.

My position has always been that if one has the "Holy Grail" of Wing Chun or their approach is superior than that person and their approach would be wiping the ground with all others. They would not be defeated, or at least be defeated less often.

[GlennR]

The bum of the year, this guy cried for his title back after losing it to ‘Patterson’, and cried so loud and offend, that they striped ‘Patterson’ of the title and give it back to ‘Khan’ without fighting.

Then Khan turns around and gets knocked out by 'Danny Garcia' in thr 4th round of his first cry baby defense. Another one dimensional fighter bites the dust. I’ve seen this guy leaving as quickly as he made it on the boxing scene.

Khan has the faster hands, but got timed out by a guy that knew how to get in a better position. Speed is nothing without timing and positioning; don’t take my word for it.

Or maybe he should of jab into the step?

http://youtu.be/CpCYemEqVvg

The mans name was 'Peterson".

This cracks me up, Khan is rated number 3 in the world by Ring, had a great fight with Peterson (which could have gone either way), protested in the scoring (which he is allowed to do).......... then fights and loses to Danny Garcia (who is a monster!) and you call him a bum??????

And one dimensional????

You also fail to mention that Peterson was done for synthetic testosterone after the fight with Khan

How about putting facts ahead of opinion

[Ali. R]

The mans name was 'Peterson".

This cracks me up, Khan is rated number 3 in the world by Ring, had a great fight with Peterson (which could have gone either way), protested in the scoring (which he is allowed to do).......... then fights and loses to Danny Garcia (who is a monster!) and you call him a bum??????

And one dimensional????

You also fail to mention that Peterson was done for synthetic testosterone after the fight with Khan

How about putting facts ahead of opinion

Whenever a grown man cries after a decision he’s a bum regardless if it’s close or not, and that’s the only way they started to look into Peterson’s situation in which he admitted to, and that’s because the cry baby cried very lound.

Bottom line is; the faster man lost, because the other one had better positioning and timing.

[Ali. R]

Actually, it would be more correct to say "Step into the Jab" as the step goes first. The jab would follow the step ;)

Blinded by the light or is it still the fog?

[GlennR]

Whenever a grown man cries after a decision he’s a bum regardless if it’s close or not, and that’s the only way they started to look into Peterson’s situation in which he admitted to, and that’s because the cry baby cried very lound.

No, the drug test had nothing to do with the protest, its standard procedure


Bottom line is; the faster man lost, because the other one had better positioning and timing.


Garcia had that positioning because Khan got dumb.

He tried to brawl, a much better, brawler which negated his speed advantage

[GlennR]

Blinded by the light or is it still the fog?

Heres some fog lights for everyone

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-techniques/punch-techniques/the-ultimate-boxing-jab-guide

[Ali. R]

Heres some fog lights for everyone

http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-techniques/punch-techniques/the-ultimate-boxing-jab-guide

I just hate cry babies.

But thanks,

You just verified my statements;

Regular jab – The regular jab or the standard jab is just that – a jab. You throw the jab from the basic position and step forward with your lead foot as you extend your arm out towards your opponent. As you recover your lead arm, the rear foot moves forward to return you to your basic stance.

[GlennR]

You just verified my statements;

Regular jab – The regular jab or the standard jab is just that – a jab. You throw the jab from the basic position and step forward with your lead foot as you extend your arm out towards your opponent. As you recover your lead arm, the rear foot moves forward to return you to your basic stance


I think we are getting back into the "WC; there's only one way to do something" mindset again.

Boxers use different stances, different tactics and will often deliver the same punch differently..... jabs being the topic here.

Unlike WCers, they're more interested in the effectiveness rather than the, apparent, correctness.

[Ali. R]

I don’t think he'd got dumb and said, "punch me please because I’m dumb", it happen because Danny Garcia didn’t chase him but waited for him (skill) and it’s what his trainer told him to do, by saying don’t swing so wide..

Like the saying goes: Wait for it, wait for it, boohyaaa! I just can’t help but give the credit to 'Danny Garcia' and not Khan himself. But I see your point.

The feet should follow the hands in any fighting art and not just boxing, and thanks again for your help in proving my point.

Take care,

[GlennR]

I don’t think he'd got dumb and said, "punch me please because I’m dumb", it happen because Danny Garcia didn’t chase him but waited for him (skill) and it’s what his trainer told him to do, by saying don’t swing so wide..


No, he decided to trade shots with Garcia, he probably won the 1st 3 rounds and then decided to stay in the pocket wioth Garcia in the 4th.... id call that dumb


Like the saying goes: Wait for it, wait for it, boohyaaa! I just can’t help but give the credit to 'Danny Garcia' and not Khan himself. But I see your point.


As per above


The feet should follow the hands in any fighting art and not just boxing, and thanks again for your help in proving my point.


Ok, what do you do when the guys slightly out of range?

[Ali. R]

He didn’t stay in the pocket on purpose, he had no choice because he never recovered from the 3rd round, and in the 3rd round he was doing business as usual and got timed out.

He tried to hit and run but his leg wouldn’t do what his mind said to, because his data entry crashed. When you’re hurt your legs simply don't move right.

This is getting very elementary, and being so-called fighters, I would love to think that the members here should know all of this. It feels like I’m taking a Litmus test (politics) or something.

[Ali. R]

Remember he was chasing Garcia with speed, and Garcia just didn’t move back that time, he (Garcia) stay with what came to him and countered with positioning and timing, and it made it look like he was brawling with Garcia because of that fact. Positioning and timing can deal with speed.

[desertwingchun2]

You are always ****ed and ready to fire.

hahaha!! You tried to say C0ck and it blocked you.

d@mn I hate c0ck blockers!!!!

[GlennR]

simply...fighting cant really be explained..He has to be shown...its like asking a man how did he have sex with his wife...if oh boy start going technical an start spouting off theory you will be like Geez ****...

Words of wisdom............ not

[anerlich]

You know it is funny I met with a Xing Yi Sifu the other day and he mentioned how if you got a Chinese Sifu, Korean Master and Japanese Sensie together the Chinese Sifu would always win.
But if you added a second Chinese Sifu to the same or any variation of the equation one of the others would win as the two Chinese would be too busy arguing over who had the "correct" method. I told him he should check out a Wing Chun forum to see just how bad things could get...

The two Chinese guys would immediately ignore the other two and start fighting each other.


I am expecting to log into this forum one day and see a question about how hot ones bathwater should be Naturally no one will agree, I am sure some would even state their Wing Chun is too deadly for them to bathe, lol.

Anyone with REAL experience would know that baths are deadly to your internal skill and that *real* WC practitioners only shower.

A friend at work deals with building maintenance. Several people complained that the hot water was too hot and might result in someone getting scalded. He arranged for the thermostat to be adjusted, and sure enough, someone complained that the water wasn't hot enough to wash their dish and coffee cup properly.

There are regular epic battles as to whether the aircon should be on or off.

People. Idiots.

[Yoshiyahu]

Words of wisdom............ not


Can you give me a detail set of theory and instructions on how to drive a car, ride a bike, hit a heavy bag, kiss a girl, hold a conversation, swim a lap, run a mile or do a push up and pull up as you do about fighting?

At the end of the day there are two ways to each...One is the right way which renders results and the other is the wrong way which ends up with no results...Even with theory on your side...in a fight your opponent might be more skilled, stronger, faster, or more powerful than you are...Then what can you do?

All the theory doesn't stop you from getting hit...or them from getting hit...