Kung Fu Sparring League

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Martial artists need frequent, safe and comprehensive sparring experiences that challenge and develop their skills.

The Kung Fu sparring league fulfills those needs by providing a series of ranked leagues that offer fun, level appropriate sparring opportunities to members of all grades, from martial arts beginners to combat sports veterans.

Multiple divisions in each league offer a gradual introduction to sparring. Members build knowledge and sparring skills while improving their health.

The standardized and progressively challenging sparring opportunities are based on the games approach to teaching sports. When members gain enough skill and experience in certain types of sparring, they obtain access to more challenging divisions and leagues.

The ranking system is designed to match rank with experience. Members collect points by competing in the various league divisions; advanced divisions and leagues require members to have collected a certain number of points in order to participate.

Next up: league organization

[Xiao3 Meng4]

1. Initial ladder rankings will be based on the ladder point standings of the previous season. Unranked competitors will be randomly placed below the ranked competitors.*Everyone starts off with 0 points or their points from the previous season.

Example A
1) Lucas - 0
2) Joe - 0
3) Henry - 0
4) George - 0
5) Sasha - 0
6) Burt - 0

2.*Competitors can challenge the player one or two positions above them on the ladder. A competitor who makes*a successful challenge swaps rungs with the person they beat. Therefore a player may jump (or drop) up to two positions at a time.

3. During each meet of the season, the first challenge is placed by the member on the lowest rung. In example A, Burt can challenge either Sasha or George.

Example B
Burt challenges George. Burt wins and switches places with George on the ladder. The new ranking is
1) Lucas
2) Joe
3) Henry
4) Burt
5) Sasha
6) George

4. If a person being challenged refuses the challenge or is not in attendance to accept the challenge, then a NO CONTEST is called. The challenger switches places with the person being challenged. No points are awarded.

Example C
It is now Sasha's turn to challenge either Burt or Henry. Since Burt has already competed against George, he is exempt from being challenged until the next meet. Sasha must therefore challenge Henry, but Henry refuses. The match is declared "No Contest" and Sasha switches places with Henry. The new ranking is
1) Lucas
2) Joe
3) Sasha
4) Burt
5) Henry
6) George

5. Competitors joining mid season can challenge any position on their first challenge. If they lose their first challenge, they are placed at the bottom of the ladder.

6. All challenges are to take place on club premises during sparring day, in the presence of a sanctioned club referee. Challenges outside of the club are not valid and will result in disciplinary league action.

7. All league members must attend and participate in at least 10 league matches a season. Failure to do so will result in the forfeit of their points for that season.

8. The winner of a match receives up to 15 points for a win. Each match has 15 total points that can be scored. Players need at least 8 points to win.

Example D
Round 1: Burt scores 3 points, George scores 2 points (total 5)
Round 2: Burt scores 3 points, George scores 2 points (total 5)
Round 3: Burt scores 3 points, George scores 2 points (total 5)
Match total: Burt scored 9 points, George scored 6 points (total 15)
Result: Burt wins and collects 9 points. George collects 1 point.

If, however, the winner's opponent fails to score any of their 6 possible points then those points are considered unclaimed and are added to the winner's score.

Example E
Round 1: Burt - 3, George 0 (2 unclaimed points)
Round 2: Burt - 3, George 2 (no unclaimed points)
Round 3: Burt - 3, George 1 (1 unclaimed point)
Match total: Burt scored 9 points. George scored 3 points (total 12 out of 15)
Result: Burt wins and collects 12 points (9 points plus the 3 unclaimed points.) George collects 1 point.

10. The defeated player always receives 1 point for each match that he/she competes in.

11. In the event of a draw, a sudden death round with no time limit is added to the match. The winner gets 8 points, their opponent gets 1 point.

12. If *either competitor wishes to forfeit the match at any time, they can record this with the referee. The match is then won by the opponent, who collects 8 points. The forfeiting player collects 0 points.

13. League and Division placements are according to points. League points determine which division a player is in. Total points determine which league a player is in.

Points needed to compete in a certain division are:
Beginner – 0 league points. New members are beginners or have recently moved up one league.
Intermediate – 150 league points. A Beginner who has at least 10 flawless matches in a season will end up with at least 150 points and be able to play the next season at the intermediate level.
Advanced – 300 league points. An intermediate player who has at least 10 flawless matches in a season will end up with at least 300 points and be able to play the next season at the advanced level.
Elite - 450 league points. An advanced player who has at least 10 flawless matches in a season will end up with at least 450 points and be able to play the next season at the Elite level.

14. League ladders are run in 3 month seasons. You can sign up for a ladder at any time during the season if there is space available.

15. Season results determine member rankings, eligibility for the playoffs and larger tournaments.

16. To be eligible for the playoffs you must be ranked in the top 8 or top half of your division, whichever is less. Playoffs are via elimination.

17. Each league has 3 divisions, which are attained via point standings. In order to be promoted to the next league, a member must collect at least*450 league points OR place at least 3rd in the advanced playoffs. An advanced player who participates in the end-of-season playoffs and places at least 3rd will collect the required amount of points to bring their league total to 450.

Points needed to compete in a certain league are:
Sumo league: 0 total points
Boxing league: 450 total points*
Throwing league: 900 total points
Sanda league: 1350 total points
Wrestling league: 1800 total points
Mma league: 2250 total points

Next up: rules common to all leagues and divisions

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Who can Participate
All members and affiliates aged 18 and up.

Match Organization
A Match consists of 2 players of the same sex and of the same Division, 2-4 cornermen, and 1 referee.
A match has three 3-minute rounds, with a 1 minute break between rounds.
In the event of a draw, there is an unlimited-time sudden death round after the last round.
In the event of a player winning 2 rounds in a row, the opposing player will be given the choice to either concede round 3 (giving the winner an extra 5 points) or to play the final round and attempt to prevent the winner getting those points.
*
Fight Suspensions
*
Rounds are temporarily suspended when
A player gets a point
A player is given a warning (3 warnings = 1 penalty)
A player is given a penalty
A player is injured
Problems or dangers arise on the platform (malfunctioning equipment)
Both players are showing passivity for 8 seconds*

After a temporary suspension, the referee resets the players and continues the round.

Rounds are ended when
One of the players achieves the round objective
Time runs out in the round
*
Matches are ended when
One of the players wins the standard rounds or the sudden death round
The referee steps in because one of the players is no longer able to defend themselves intelligently (technical knock-out [TKO])
The referee disqualifies one of the players (3 penalties = disqualification [DQ])
One of the players is knocked out or injured and cannot go on
One of the cornermen throws in the towel
A player concedes the 3rd round

The ref is in charge of the match at all times.
*
Attire
Players must remove all jewelery before playing a match.
Player's clothes must be clean.
Players are to wear either a thick cotton uniform without zippers or buttons, or drawstring shorts and a T-Shirt.
Players must be clean and free of makeup, scents or hair products.
Player's fingernails and toenails must be clipped.
Players with healing or open wounds must securely bandage and cover them, and be cleared by a doctor before returning to play.
Players choosing to wear footwear must use soft-soled shoes approved by the referee.
Players must wear any equipment required by their league and division rules. The equipment must be clean, in good working order, and inspected by the referee before the match.*
*
Legal Techniques
All martial sport techniques are allowed unless otherwise specified within a league or division.
*
Illegal Techniques
Biting, scratching, eye-gouging, fish-hooking (will result in disqualification)
Throwing players onto their heads (will result in disqualification)
Excessive or malicious force (will result in disqualification)
Striking the back of the head, throat, spine or groin (will result in a penalty and a 1 point deduction)
Grabbing the groin (will result in a penalty and a 1 point deduction)
Techniques which are not allowed in the league or division (will result in a warning)

Next up: Sumo League Rules

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Beginner's division
Who can Play
Members with less than 150 points in the Sumo league.

Equipment needed
A flat surface of at least 2x2 meters.

Objective
1 point is awarded for making your opponent take a step.
3 points are needed to win a round.

Technical Rules
No Trips or throws (results in a warning)
No Grabbing the clothes or legs (results in a warning)
No Strikes of any kind (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Self-Sacrifice techniques (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Intermediate division
Who can Play
Members with between 150 and 300 points in the Sumo league.

Equipment needed
A Ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with at least 1.5" dense foam padding

Objective
1 point is awared for ejecting your opponent from the ring.
3 points are needed to win a round.

Technical Rules
No Trips or throws (results in a warning)
No Grabbing the clothes or legs (results in a warning)
No Strikes of any kind (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Self-Sacrifice techniques (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Advanced division
Who can Play
Members with between 300 and 450 points in the Sumo league.

Equipment needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with at least 1.5" dense foam padding

Objective
1 point is awarded for ejecting the opponent from the ring.
3 points are needed to win a round.

Technical Rules
No grabbing the legs or clothes (results in a warning)*
No Strikes of any kind (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Self-Sacrifice Techniques (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Next up: Boxing league rules

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Beginner's division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the Sumo league and up to 150 points in the Boxing League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters with at least 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth Guard
Athletic Support
Chest Protector
AIBA Headgear
AIBA Gloves (M - 10 oz. F - 8 oz.)

Objective
*
1 point is awarded for boxing your opponent out of the ring.
3 points are needed to win a round.

Technical Rules
No Clinching or tripping (results in a warning)
No punching to the head (results in a warning)
No Palm Strikes, Elbows, Head Butts, Knees, Kicks (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Intermediate division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the Sumo league and between 150-300 points in the Boxing League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 5x5 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth Guard
Athletic Support
Headgear (AIBA Approved)
Chest protector
Boxing Gloves (M - 10 oz. F - 8 oz.)
Shin/instep guards (WTF approved)

Objective
1 point is awarded for boxing or kicking your opponent out of the ring.
3 points are needed to win a round.
A TKO wins the match.

Technical Rules
No Clinching or tripping (results in a warning)
No Kicking the head (will results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Palm Strikes, Elbows, Knees, Head Butts (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Advanced division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the Sumo league and between 300-450 points in the Boxing League.
*
Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 5x5 meters, with 1.5" Padding
Mouth Guard
Athletic Support
Headgear (AIBA Approved)
Chest protector
Boxing Gloves (M - 10 oz. F - 8 oz.)
Shin/instep pads (WTF approved)
Elbow/forearm pads
*
Objective
1 point is awarded for boxing, kicking, pushing, tripping or throwing your opponent out of the ring.
3 points are needed to win a round.
A TKO wins the match.
*
Technical Rules
No Palm Strikes, Elbows, Head Butts (results in a warning)
No knees to head (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Next up: throwing league rules

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Beginner's division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the Sumo league and up to 150 points in the Throwing League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with at least 1.5" dense foam padding

Objective
1 point is awarded for making your opponent touch the mat with any part of their body other than their feet.
3 points are needed to win a round.

Technical Rules
No Strikes (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Self-sacrifice techniques (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Intermediate division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the Sumo league and between 150-300 points in the Throwing League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding

Objective
1 point is awarded for making your opponent touch the mat with their hip.

Technical Rules
No Strikes (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Self-sacrifice techniques (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Advanced division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the Sumo league and between 300-450 points in the Throwing League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding

Objective
1 point is awarded for throwing your opponent onto one shoulder.
3 points are needed to win a round.

Technical Rules
No Strikes (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Self-Sacrifice Techniques (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Next up: sanda league rules

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Beginner's division
Who can play
Members with at least 450 points each in the Boxing and Throwing leagues and up to 150 points in the Sanda League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 5x5 meters, with 1.5" Padding
Mouth Guard
Athletic Support
Headgear (AIBA Approved)
Chest protector
Boxing Gloves (M - 10 oz. F - 8 oz.)
Shin/instep pads (WTF approved)

Objective
1 point is awarded for boxing, kicking, pushing, tripping or throwing your opponent out of the ring OR to the ground.
3 points are needed to win a round.
A TKO wins the match.

Technical Rules
No Elbows, Head Butts (results in a warning)
No Knees to Head, bending joints backwards (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Self-Sacrifice Techniques (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Intermediate division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points each in the Boxing and Throwing leagues and between 150-300 points in the Sanda League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 5x5 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth guard
Athletic Support
Headgear (AIBA approved)
Boxing Gloves (M - 10 oz. F - 8 oz.)
Shin/instep pads (WTF approved)
Elbow/forearm pads

Objective
1 point is awarded for knocking or throwing your opponent out of the ring OR to the ground.
3 points or are needed to win a round.
A TKO wins the match.

Technical Rules
No Self-sacrificing techniques, Head Butts (results in a warning)
No Bending joints Backwards (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Advanced division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points each in the Boxing and Throwing leagues and between 300-450 points in the Sanda League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 5x5 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth guard
Athletic Support
Headgear (AIBA approved)
MMA Gloves (4 oz. competition gloves)

Objective
1 point is awarded for knocking or throwing your opponent out of the ring OR to the ground.
3 points are needed to win a round.
A TKO wins the match.
*
Technical Rules
All techniques permitted by the Club are allowed.

Next up: wrestling league rules

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Beginner's division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the sanda league and up to 150 points in the Wrestling League

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth Guard
Soft Kneepads are optional

Objective
1 point is awarded for a 5 second hold from side control or mount.
3 Points are needed to win the round.

Technical Rules
No submissions (results in a warning)
No Striking (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Intermediate division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the sanda league and between 150-300 points in the Wrestling League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth Guard
Soft kneepads are optional

Objective
1/2 point is awarded for a 10 second hold from side control or mount.
3 points or a submission are needed to win a round.

Technical Rules
No Submissions below the waist (results in a warning)
No Striking (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Advanced division
Who Can Play
members with at least 450 points in the sanda league and between 300-450 points in the Wrestling League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth Guard
Soft kneepads are optional

Objective
A submission is needed to win the round.

Technical Rules
No Strikes (results in a penalty and -1 point)

Next up: mma league rules

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Beginner's division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the wrestling league and up to 150 points in the Mma League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 3x3 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth Guard
Athletic Support
AIBA Headgear
MMA Gloves (4 0z.)
shin/instep pads

Objective
1 point is awarded for a 5 second hold from side control or mount.
1/2 point is awarded for a ring ejection.
3 points or a submission are needed to win the round.
A TKO wins the match.

Technical Rules
No elbowing a player on the ground (results in a warning)
No kicking a player on the ground (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No Kneeing a player on the ground (results in a penalty and -1 point)
*

Intermediate division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the wrestling league and between 150-300 points in the Mma League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed area of at least 5x5 meters, with 1.5" Dense Foam Padding
Mouth Guard
Athletic Support
AIBA HeadGear
MMA gloves (4 oz.)
shin/instep pads
elbow/forearm pads

Objective
1/2 point is awarded for a 10 second hold from side control or mount.
1/4 point is awarded for a ring ejection.
3 points or a submission are needed to win a round.
A TKO wins the match.

Technical Rules
No kicking a player on the ground (results in a penalty and -1 point)
No kneeing a player on the ground (results in a penalty and -1 point)
*

Advanced division
Who Can Play
Members with at least 450 points in the wrestling league and between 300-450 points in the Mma League.

Equipment Needed
A ringed aread of at least 5x5 meters, with 1.5" dense foam padding
Mouth Guard
Athletic Support
MMA Gloves (4 oz.)
Kneepads

Objective
1/16th of a point is awarded for a ring ejection.
3 points or are needed to win a round.
A Submission or TKO wins the match.

Technical Rules
No kicking or kneeing the head on the ground (results in disqualification)




Enjoy. Feel free to share and modify as suits your needs.

[pateticorecords]

whao... I am kinda' impressed with the break-down you have given. Where do we sign up? hahaha

[MasterKiller]

Or you could just fight MMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or you could just fight MMA.

Or in any of the various "sub disciplines" that are already organized.

[YouKnowWho]

Or you could just fight MMA.

I believe the best order should be that you compete in:

- golden gloves boxng to test your punching skill.
- kickboxing tournament to test your kicking and punching skill.
- SC, Judo, wrestling tournament to test your throwing skill.
- BJJ tournament to test your ground game skill.
- Sanda/Shanshou tournament to test your kicking, punching, throwing skill.
- MMA tournamnet ro test everything.

You have to develop your striking skill and grappling skill separately before you can do your integration. To jump right into MMA too soon may not be the proper training order.

[MasterKiller]

I believe the best order should be that you compete in:

- golden gloves boxng to test your punching skill.
- kickboxing tournament to test your kicking and punching skill.
- SC, Judo, wrestling tournament to test your throwing skill.
- BJJ tournament to test your ground game skill.
- Sanda/Shanshou tournament to test your kicking, punching, throwing skill.
- MMA tournamnet ro test everything.

You have to develop your striking skill and grappling skill separately before you can do your integration. To jump right into MMA too soon may not be the proper training order.

Nah, you don't.

We always make people compete in a couple of BJJ tournaments before they fight MMA just to get used to the speed and "full contact" aspect against someone who doesn't care if they hurt you.

But fighting isn't rocket science. Kick. Punch. Throw. Wrestle. It's not that complicated.

Not everyone SHOULD fight, obviously. But for the ones with the talent and desire, you don't have to spend 10 years prepping.

[YouKnowWho]

you don't have to spend 10 years prepping.

You don't need 10 years to get ready, but you need to have enough tools in your toolbox to be successful in the long run.

In short turn, you may be able to depend on your pull guard, ground game to win. If you take this path, you will always be weak in striking and throwing.

[GeneChing]

...however the truth of the matter is that we do one local tournament a year and it's not a moneymaker. Quite the opposite really. It's non-contact because when things go contact, we have to deal with insurance, the boxing commission, and in our area, CAMO. There are plenty of other promoters in our area already staging this sort of thing. Heck, Sifu Zhong Luo is holding Dragon House 12 (http://dragonhousemma.com/dragon-house-12/) in Oakland this weekend. Frankly, we're publishers, not fight promoters. That's a totally different ballgame.

I don't understand why some of you feel the need to reinvent the wheel. If you want to spar with Kung Fu, there are plenty of venues in which to do so that are already well established. Go represent there.

[MasterKiller]

You don't need 10 years to get ready, but you need to have enough tools in your toolbox to be successful in the long run.

In short turn, you may be able to depend on your pull guard, ground game to win. If you take this path, you will always be weak in striking and throwing.

I agree. But 1 year is generally enough time to develop enough to begin competing. If you can't fight reasonably well after a year of anything, time to rethink your training methods.

[ginosifu]

Nah, you don't.

We always make people compete in a couple of BJJ tournaments before they fight MMA just to get used to the speed and "full contact" aspect against someone who doesn't care if they hurt you.

But fighting isn't rocket science. Kick. Punch. Throw. Wrestle. It's not that complicated.

Not everyone SHOULD fight, obviously. But for the ones with the talent and desire, you don't have to spend 10 years prepping.

Primal / insticntive skills such as a round kick to the thigh, over / under hooks takedown, basic wrestling etc etc; need no practice or training. Might as well lift some weights and become a meathead so you can grab a guy and squeeze tight and lay on the ground together.

On the other hand.... If you want to learn a real MA, then you need years of practice. Specialized drills for your style and resistance training with partners, this take time.

xiao meng: your sparring league has merit but how would you get people together to fight with these rules sets? Are you saying have these rules and use them at your own kwoon or city? How do we unify everyone to use these rule sets? How do you check to see if everyone is following the rule set properly?

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

I believe the best order should be that you compete in:

- golden gloves boxng to test your punching skill.
- kickboxing tournament to test your kicking and punching skill.
- SC, Judo, wrestling tournament to test your throwing skill.
- BJJ tournament to test your ground game skill.
- Sanda/Shanshou tournament to test your kicking, punching, throwing skill.
- MMA tournamnet ro test everything.

You have to develop your striking skill and grappling skill separately before you can do your integration. To jump right into MMA too soon may not be the proper training order.

I agree to an extent.
If you truly want to test and develop your skills then, arguably, the best way is to fight the best in each specialization.
Your wrestling will be tested in MMA BUT not to the extent that it would be in competitive wrestling, same goes for your striking, grappling, etc.

MMA is the prefect vehicle to "put it all together" BUT the jury is still out (IMO) if it is the perfect venue to DEVELOP those skills.

[MasterKiller]

MMA is the prefect vehicle to "put it all together" BUT the jury is still out (IMO) if it is the perfect venue to DEVELOP those skills.

I want to play wide receiver in the NFL. Which path gets me there?

1 year running track to develop speed
1 year playing baseball to develop hand-eye coordination
1 year playing soccer to develop footwork and cutting
1 year playing Rugby to learn to break tackles

or

4 years playing wide receiver on a football team

?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I want to play wide receiver in the NFL. Which path gets me there?

1 year running track to develop speed
1 year playing baseball to develop hand-eye coordination
1 year playing soccer to develop footwork and cutting
1 year playing Rugby to learn to break tackles

or

4 years playing wide receiver on a football team

?

Yep BUT NOT playing quaterback or DE or line backer, right?
:D

[Frost]

Primal / insticntive skills such as a round kick to the thigh, over / under hooks takedown, basic wrestling etc etc; need no practice or training. Might as well lift some weights and become a meathead so you can grab a guy and squeeze tight and lay on the ground together.

On the other hand.... If you want to learn a real MA, then you need years of practice. Specialized drills for your style and resistance training with partners, this take time.

xiao meng: your sparring league has merit but how would you get people together to fight with these rules sets? Are you saying have these rules and use them at your own kwoon or city? How do we unify everyone to use these rule sets? How do you check to see if everyone is following the rule set properly?

ginosifu

So thai boxing, freestyle wrestling, boxing etc are not real MA’s they are just primal stuff easily learned usually by roided up meatheads?
Are you really going there with this argument?
As for the rest why reinvent the wheel, seriously why bother?

[David Jamieson]

I think it just get's tiring to constantly have people tell you that sport fighting is the only real deal. It's not.

It really isn't. It is what it is and quite frankly, many people who practice martial arts and don't sport fight can't be bothered with the constant repetition of "kung fu is lame larpers and only mma is the real deal"

That's why people react in that way Frost. In case you were interested.

mma doesn't touch on stick fighting, knife fighting, environmental fighting, multiples, weapons and so on and so forth.

yeah it's fun! yeah it's neat. Yeah you can do that and kung fu too.

It just gets tiring to have guys who are all into that bagging on tcma all the time and quite frankly being broken records and all up in peoples faces when they are told they are roid heads etc which I might add, a lot of people who gravitate towards that sportive combative are.

Not to mention it gets tiring to hear how everyone in mma is cool and has no ego and all that other absolute rot. mma has some of the biggest most egotistical people in it.

I find the opposite to be true of kung fu. I also find it interesting how mma superfans will cherry pick the shaolin dos of the world and then use that as a base to cast aspersion onto all tcma.

I think it is understandable, especially here in a kung fu forum to get sick of that nonsense in the short term.

find a marriage, make it work or get divorced. that is how the real world works. The guy who wants to go on about how great muay thai is or boxing is or wrestling is and never speaks to kung fu and how it can be used in that context is the same guy that probably doesn't know when he's in a relationship he should be out of.

the very fact that you are trying to put words into Gino's statement and start an argument over it or position yourself as the superior opinion is just another demonstration of that in my opinion.

In other words, Gino is entitled to his incredulous sense here while you would be if it was a wrestling forum. But it's not.

[Frost]

Firstly Im sure I addressed gino and not you but hey thanks for answering with your usual insightful comments!

Secondly I never mentioned sports fighting (the whole thread was about sports fighting you might notice this if you read it) I said are these arts not real martial arts is that what you are really saying? a question not an insult as Gino and I have often talked about differing view points without insulting each otherwe don’t need you to jump in and moderate just yet

Thirdly you have little to know idea about MMA, grappling or the people it attracts so how about this, I wont comment on anything I don’t know about and you try to do the same :)

Oh and finally whilst its nice for you to follow me around (it makes me feel special) if you read my other posts rather than just jumping on the grappling ones you will also see I talk about the TCMA styles I also do

[David Jamieson]

Firstly Im sure I addressed gino and not you but hey thanks for answering with your usual insightful comments!

Secondly I never mentioned sports fighting (the whole thread was about sports fighting you might notice this if you read it) I said are these arts not real martial arts is that what you are really saying? a question not an insult as Gino and I have often talked about differing view points without insulting each otherwe don’t need you to jump in and moderate just yet

Thirdly you have little to know idea about MMA, grappling or the people it attracts so how about this, I wont comment on anything I don’t know about and you try to do the same :)

Oh and finally whilst its nice for you to follow me around (it makes me feel special) if you read my other posts rather than just jumping on the grappling ones you will also see I talk about the TCMA styles I also do

Frost - This is an open forum. I'm not following you around and as for what I know or don't know, what the hell do you know? lol

You take a defensive position when I speak to what you posted. That's fine, I don't have any issue with that. You then take an attitude.

Really, why are you here if all you have is innuendo, insults and belligerence towards others. Especially respected sifu in the kung fu community. You are dismissive and belittling.

It's not acceptable and I will speak to it and if you don't like it, please feel free to leave or I could help you with that.

Have a nice day. :)

[Frost]

Frost - This is an open forum. I'm not following you around and as for what I know or don't know, what the hell do you know? lol

You take a defensive position when I speak to what you posted. That's fine, I don't have any issue with that. You then take an attitude.

Really, why are you here if all you have is innuendo, insults and belligerence towards others. Especially respected sifu in the kung fu community. You are dismissive and belittling.

It's not acceptable and I will speak to it and if you don't like it, please feel free to leave or I could help you with that.

Have a nice day. :)

and here we go with the usual jamison insults and threats :)

As for belittling Gino im sure he doesn't feel i did that but hey unlike you im not a mind reader so will wait for his reply :)

Ps putting have a nice day at the end of an insult and a threat doesn't mean much :)

[MasterKiller]

LOL at DJ getting butt hurt about people discussing combat sports in a thread about combat sports.

[David Jamieson]

and here we go with the usual jamison insults and threats :)

As for belittling Gino im sure he doesn't feel i did that but hey unlike you im not a mind reader so will wait for his reply :)

Ps putting have a nice day at the end of an insult and a threat doesn't mean much :)

Dude, what is your problem?
lol, what a child you are.
chest pounding because you need to feel better after someone addresses you being an ass?
whatever, I'm not threatening you, I am outright stating it.

[David Jamieson]

LOL at DJ getting butt hurt about people discussing combat sports in a thread about combat sports.

wtf are you talking about.

That's not what I was addressing at all.
don't get all stinky.

butt hurt? lol oh jeez I didn't realize I was playing call of duty on my xbox here.

grow up mk and try to remember you're in a kung fu forum.

[Frost]

LOL at DJ getting butt hurt about people discussing combat sports in a thread about combat sports.

lol it wasnt just me then who spotted that :)

[MasterKiller]

grow up mk and try to remember you're in a kung fu forum.

My kung fu is more relavent than 90% of anyone else's here because it's not on a shelf collecting dust.

[Lucas]

FYI, astro glide does not come out of Hamster fur.

[MasterKiller]

FYI, astro glide does not come out of Hamster fur.

TMI, bro....

[Lucas]

lol dude you're good. fast enough it doesnt even say edited by rofl

[David Jamieson]

My kung fu is more relavent than 90% of anyone else's here because it's not on a shelf collecting dust.

You are making an assumption. It's probably wrong. But the fact of the matter is your experience is only your own and you might have others with whom you share it, but it is not better, superior of a higher quality or value and it doesn't put you in a position to make statements like "90% of people here" etc.

And another thing, please stop altering people's posts MK, it was funny at first, but we can't do that as mods. It's not cool of us. It's wrong.

[MasterKiller]

And another thing, please stop altering people's posts MK, it was funny at first, but we can't do that as mods. It's not cool of us. It's wrong.

A. Lucas is cool with it.
B. Mind your own backyard.

[Lucas]

to be fair i did ask for it.

[David Jamieson]

A. Lucas is cool with it.
B. Mind your own backyard.

This is my backyard dude.

[MasterKiller]

This is my backyard dude.

Not exclusively. Stop acting like it is.

[Lucas]

do you guys care if i take a dump in your backyard?

[MasterKiller]

do you guys care if i take a dump in your backyard?

Not me. DJ will probably get butt hurt if the pattern of the poop doesn't meet his narrow notion of how poop piles should accent the landscape.

[ginosifu]

So thai boxing, freestyle wrestling, boxing etc are not real MA’s they are just primal stuff easily learned usually by roided up meatheads?
Are you really going there with this argument?
As for the rest why reinvent the wheel, seriously why bother?

Everyone has an opinion about MA and how they should work etc. Opinions are like as$holes.... everyone's got 1 and they all small bad. Sorry DJ, I was not offended by Frost's post. Frost and I differ on opinion but he keeps to the subject and does not troll on us TCMA's like some other peeps I will not mention.

Frost: Legitamate art forms Thai boxing, wrestling are good MA. It is not the art form I am talking about, it is mainly the fighters themselves. A lot of people fighting in today's combat sports look like they are not learning a legitamate fighting style or art form (this is just my opinion). More like they have grosely traded power lifting and getting into shape, for Martial Arts skill.

Lets agree that anyone that spends time with resistant opponents (bjj, mma, sc, judo etc etc) will be better in MA than a person who does not have any resistance training.

However, just because someone rolls around (whether it be bjj or mma etc) does mean they are learning a legitamate MA. It just means that they are good rolling around and not neccessarily good at other aspects of Martial Arts training.

I can take any big thug with no real MA training and throw him in the ring with the same size person with mma or bjj skill and he will do fine. Not because the bjj guy sucked but, because general mma or bjj is something you can just do! Anyone can jump in the ring and hold there own. Not because the other guy is bad at mma but because mma and bjj are primal / instictive skills that we all have inside us.

did that explain it a bit for ya Frost? just my opinion.

ginosifu

[Golden Arms]

Lets agree that anyone that spends time with resistant opponents (bjj, mma, sc, judo etc etc) will be better in MA than a person who does not have any resistance training.

However, just because someone rolls around (whether it be bjj or mma etc) does mean they are learning a legitamate MA. It just means that they are good rolling around and not neccessarily good at other aspects of Martial Arts training.

I can take any big thug with no real MA training and throw him in the ring with the same size person with mma or bjj skill and he will do fine. Not because the bjj guy sucked but, because general mma or bjj is something you can just do! Anyone can jump in the ring and hold there own. Not because the other guy is bad at mma but because mma and bjj are primal / instictive skills that we all have inside us.

did that explain it a bit for ya Frost? just my opinion.

ginosifu
Ginosifu,

This last paragraph is not true, and in fact is easily disproven. Take your average good street fighter, put them up against a well trained sport fighter and in that 1 on 1 the sport fighter is generally going to dominate in most aspects of the fight. Fighting trained fighters is a whole different world from fighting those that have not been trained (proper distance and keeping your hands up are two things that make a huge difference all by themselves).

Kimbo Slice was an example of this, a guy that was strong, had fought a lot on the street (presumably) and yet had a hard time at the lower levels of the sport fighting world. BJJ takes something that most certainly is not natural for most humans (moving on the ground) and makes an art form out of it, in fact the art itself was based largely in part on the concept of taking a person on in a range or way that took them out of their element. I think it was Maeda that really fleshed out this concept.

I train Pak Mei and Hung Gar, both Chinese martial arts, but I have also fought quite a bit competitively full contact and I find value in both.

[Lucas]

grappling is indeed an instinctual aspect of fighting for humans. however submission grappling arts take that instinct to a completely different level. most of the escapes, counters and submissions you learn in a grappling art need to be learned, refined and then ingrained through practice and repetition against resistance under various circumstances, so that the effeciency and reflex become natural.

a good example is look at pretty much anyone learning how to 'shrimp' for the first time. its ugly.

[Frost]

Not me. DJ will probably get butt hurt if the pattern of the poop doesn't meet his narrow notion of how poop piles should accent the landscape.

and then he will delete my post where i agree with you :) as he has done twice so far lol

[Frost]

Everyone has an opinion about MA and how they should work etc. Opinions are like as$holes.... everyone's got 1 and they all small bad. Sorry DJ, I was not offended by Frost's post. Frost and I differ on opinion but he keeps to the subject and does not troll on us TCMA's like some other peeps I will not mention.

Frost: Legitamate art forms Thai boxing, wrestling are good MA. It is not the art form I am talking about, it is mainly the fighters themselves. A lot of people fighting in today's combat sports look like they are not learning a legitamate fighting style or art form (this is just my opinion). More like they have grosely traded power lifting and getting into shape, for Martial Arts skill.

Lets agree that anyone that spends time with resistant opponents (bjj, mma, sc, judo etc etc) will be better in MA than a person who does not have any resistance training.

However, just because someone rolls around (whether it be bjj or mma etc) does mean they are learning a legitamate MA. It just means that they are good rolling around and not neccessarily good at other aspects of Martial Arts training.

I can take any big thug with no real MA training and throw him in the ring with the same size person with mma or bjj skill and he will do fine. Not because the bjj guy sucked but, because general mma or bjj is something you can just do! Anyone can jump in the ring and hold there own. Not because the other guy is bad at mma but because mma and bjj are primal / instictive skills that we all have inside us.

did that explain it a bit for ya Frost? just my opinion.

ginosifu

it did and whilst i disagree with you for the same reasons golden arms did, BJJ and MMA are not primal instinctive, indeed BJJ is counter intuitive as i is clinch fighting and things you do instinctively: grab the head, push away with straight arms etc will get you destroyed in both MMA and grappling, i respect your opinion

Oh and i knew i didnt upset you because we have had these discussions before and you unlike some people are level headed and secure in yourself and your skills

[bawang]

Primal / insticntive skills such as a round kick to the thigh, over / under hooks takedown, basic wrestling etc etc; need no practice or training. Might as well lift some weights and become a meathead so you can grab a guy and squeeze tight and lay on the ground together.


funny words coming from a man who practices mongolian barbarian brute force wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

Primal / insticntive skills such as a round kick to the thigh, over / under hooks takedown, basic wrestling etc etc; need no practice or training. Might as well lift some weights and become a meathead so you can grab a guy and squeeze tight and lay on the ground together.

ginosifu

Got to disagree with you on the not needing practice and training. I'd say well over half the people I've seen in TMA can't throw a low round kick for crap. (And I train traditional arts.)
Most people simply don't turn the hip over properly and end up slicing upwards with no power, in spite of being told over and over. I think most people are lazy and if you don't train the low roundhouse properly, you won't get the power that should be there.
It is instinctive, but so is wildly swinging with no focus. These instincts need to be refined into something more usable.

[Syn7]

Primal / insticntive skills such as a round kick to the thigh, over / under hooks takedown, basic wrestling etc etc; need no practice or training. Might as well lift some weights and become a meathead so you can grab a guy and squeeze tight and lay on the ground together.

I would love to see you stuck in a room with a meathead wrestler. You don't know what defenceless feels like until a high level grappler shuts you down.

Insert all your theories of how you can fend off somebody well trained and stronger than you here ______________________________ :rolleyes:

[Syn7]

lol it wasnt just me then who spotted that :)

You are not alone.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The idea and design of this particular form of sparring league stems from two distinct concepts:

1. The games approach to teaching sports
2. Ladder league competition.

The games approach to teaching sports

reduces the technical demands (skill techniques) of the game so as to help players concentrate on learning the tactical components of effective play. The skill techniques of sports should be introduced in the later stages... this can be done by presenting carefully thought out lead-up games and challenges that help players learn the tactical essentials of the sport.
http://www.pelinks4u.org/bookreviews/playpractice.htm

To that end, the sparring leagues and divisions provide progressive rulesets, allowing the student/competitor to effectively learn, practice, explore and apply the tactics which each ruleset focuses on.

Ladder league competition is, in my opinion, the best ranking system available for one-on-one sports that occur over more than one meet/event. It's "King of the Hill" in organized form. The idea is to get to the top of a division, or to gain enough points in order to progress to the next "game"; competitors WILL develop the skillets at their own pace by default as they accumulate points/experience and rise up in the rankings.

Initially, I was going to offer this setup as an amateur sparring league, similar to a "squash league", and have it be open to everyone. I would ref, and we would meet every weekend.

I think it would great if a bunch of local clubs adopted the same rule sets, ran their own house leagues, and got together for end-of season elimination tournaments, where the house leagues would bring the top 3-5 competitors in each league and each division. Could be loads of fun.

Note: Some people really enjoy particular subsets of sparring and have no interest in others. The "Elite Division" mentioned at the beginning is simply an open division that allows ppl with more than 450 points to keep competing in the same league if they want to, without being obliged to change leagues.

[ginosifu]

funny words coming from a man who practices mongolian barbarian brute force wrestling.

Actually my Shuai Chiao is very Tai Chi ish. There are no brute force throws, mostly throws with nuetralizing and absorbing.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

mongolian barbarian brute force wrestling.
SC is "the sport of strength".

The "brute force wrestling" is a very imporatant training stage that all SC guys have to go through. If you can hold on your opponent in such way that he can't even move (it's not hard to do with SC jacket on and if you have a pair of monster grips and also understand "shaking"), you have just taken away all your opponent's offense skill. Whenever that you want to attack will be up to you.

http://imageshack.us/a/img859/982/deadlock.png

The moment that you touch your opponent, the moment that he is flying. That only work if you are much better than your opponent.

[pazman]

1. The games approach to teaching sports


A friend of mine in China wanted to pursue a career in teaching gongfu. Neighborhood wushuguan's aren't a real money maker in China...taekwondo has the market cornered. He realized that teaching gongfu in the traditional manner wasn't going to pay the bills so he asked me to design a curriculum that was more modern, yet could still retain the material of traditional methods. I designed a curriculum that contained something similar to what you've done, though yours is much more detailed.:) Here are the stages:

Boxing
Kickboxing
Sumo (ring control and throwing skills)
Full Sanda (emphasizing throwing and leg catching)

Parallel to these stages he could train and test for whatever traditional methods he chose. I also suggested spear sparring, since that would also develop good gongfu.

It might take an average person a few years to by able to be proficient at Sanda. At this point you can give them their "black belt" and teach them all the traditional stuff they want.

I think once a person develops a good sense of timing and distance and has some basic fight experience, he's ready to learn some of nuanced skills gongfu has to offer.

[bawang]

He realized that teaching gongfu in the traditional manner wasn't going to pay the bills

shouldve stopped right ther

SC is "the sport of strength".


thank you for agreeing with me, baba.

[YouKnowWho]

I think once a person develops a good sense of timing and distance and has some basic fight experience, he's ready to learn some of nuanced skills gongfu has to offer.
Today, people may have wrong impression about TCMA. If you can use your "foot sweep" to take down 80% of your opponent, you have good Gongfu, otherwise, you don't. Too many people spend all their training time in performance, health, self-cultivation, inner peace, ...Not enough people spend their training time to make just one technique work (such as hook punch, side kick, elbow lock, foot sweep, single leg, ...). The day that you die, you should be proud of yourself that you have developed many useful skills in your life, and not how many forms that you can perform.

A: What form have you learned in the past 3 month?
B: I have learned .... How about you?
A: I'm still working on my "foot sweep".
B: When will your teacher teach you any forms?
A: My teacher told me when I'm too old to compete in tournament, he will teach me all the forms that I want to learn and he know more than 50 forms.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Too many people spend all their training time in performance, health, self-cultivation, inner peace


Martial Arts is not only a great way to learn self-defense or improve your physical health; it is also a great way to temper the mind. Throughout the ages, Monks, Warriors and Philosophers discovered that sport combat was a very effective method of developing awareness, focus, and clarity.

Studies by modern scholars such as Malcolm Gladwell have revealed the importance of hands-on experience for developing elite levels of skill. Researchers such as V.J. Ramachandran have shown the intimate connection between brain and body health.

The Kung Fu sparring league combines Traditional Martial Arts training with the natural developmental effects of sport combat and the modern insights of sports education in order to provide high quality training and exciting competitive experiences which will improve both well-being and skill.

Pazman: cool. You're right in seeing the league as a curriculum.

[Syn7]

shouldve stopped right ther


thank you for agreeing with me, baba.

Every wrestler I know is stronger than their MA counterparts. Just my experience. I also noticed that farmboys make great wrestlers.

[Syn7]

Too many people spend all their training time in performance, health, self-cultivation, inner peace...

I think those are very honourable reasons for training. I only have issue with it when it is presented as combat effective from some cat who has never actually been in a real fight with a real opponent. It's dangerous, not just fraud. Some guy who has never fought before should not be telling young women they can defend themselves with their techniques until they have been tried and tested. Hitting a semi compliant dude in a padded suit isn't enough. A false sense of security is more dangerous than knowing better. That being said, some of my fondest MA memories are training with old men who don't even think about combat.

[YouKnowWho]

Every wrestler I know is stronger than their MA counterparts. Just my experience. I also noticed that farmboys make great wrestlers.
Because your training partner is your weight training. If you can use your firemen's carry to life up your 250 lb training partner over your head, you can't be in too bad body shape yourself. Old Chinese saying said, "1 year wrestling training will make you stronger than 3 years solo form training."

[Syn7]

Martial Arts is not only a great way to learn self-defense or improve your physical health; it is also a great way to temper the mind. Throughout the ages, Monks, Warriors and Philosophers discovered that sport combat was a very effective method of developing awareness, focus, and clarity.

Not to mention that it's a great way to release naked aggression. We are animals and we need our outlets or it will harm us from the inside out.

[Syn7]

Because your training partner is your weight training. If you can use your firemen's carry to life up your 250 lb training partner over your head, you can't be in too bad body shape yourself. 1 year wrestling training will make you stronger than 3 years solo form training.

Yeah, pushing and pulling somebody who is your own size and skill level is great exercise in itself. Thats why farmboys do well. They deal with large animals and have to shovel all that feed and all that. Unlike other forms of repetitive manual labour, farming is quite versatile as far as range of motion is concerned. IMO, anyways.

I used to work with very large horses. It was a great workout. (have at it, bawang)

[YouKnowWho]

Martial Arts is not only a great way to learn self-defense or improve your physical health; it is also a great way to temper the mind.

If you teach

- combat, you say it's also good for health and inner peace, there is nothing wrong about that.
- health and inner peace, you say it's also good for combat, you are cheating on your students.

[pazman]

Self-cultivation, inner peace, performance are all cool, but I think they only make sense in the context of having learned how to fight first.

There are a host of other skills in gongfu that are useful, but only after fight training. For example, push hands is a cool exercise but a lot of taiji teachers seem to have this notion that first you do taolu, then push hands, then.....*ta-da* at some point years down the road you are ready to learn the fighting. Of course, I imagine some do this to milk students of money, but there are some who really believe this. Fight training and supplementary training go hand in hand.

I once remarked to a fellow forum member in person that a person should learn some Sanda before learning traditional Shaolin. I'm not sure if he understood what I meant, since Sanda and traditional Shaolin are not similar, but giving a student some basic understanding of fighting, distance, power generation, etc before moving to traditional methods gives them context.

In Japan, most koryu people I've talked to suggest something similar...get a black belt in something like judo or kendo and THEN start thinking about the traditional stuff.

[pazman]

Every wrestler I know is stronger than their MA counterparts. Just my experience. I also noticed that farmboys make great wrestlers.

Kung fu people dress in silk pajamas and practice dances in an attempt develop "six harmonies."

Farmers have "six harmonies" from their occupation.

[YouKnowWho]

If one can go to the woods and uses his upper arm with body rotation to break 1000 tree branches, whenever he graps his opponent's wrist, he can break his opponent's arm.

If you are a city boy, there is no way that you have opportunity to develop such skill.

[bawang]

I used to work with very large horses. It was a great workout. (have at it, bawang)

do you know a mr hands by any chance

[wenshu]

I can take any big thug with no real MA training and throw him in the ring with the same size person with mma or bjj skill and he will do fine. Not because the bjj guy sucked but, because general mma or bjj is something you can just do! Anyone can jump in the ring and hold there own. Not because the other guy is bad at mma but because mma and bjj are primal / instictive skills that we all have inside us.

This is wrong bordering on asinine.

I think what you meant to say was you can throw a guy with 3 years of "traditional" gong fu training into the ring against a guy with 3 months of MMA/jiujitsu training and he'll get his clock cleaned.

[Kellen Bassette]

If you teach

- combat, you say it's also good for health and inner peace, there is nothing wrong about that.
- health and inner peace, you say it's also good for combat, you are cheating on your students.

Couldn't agree more.

[ginosifu]

Ginosifu,

This last paragraph is not true, and in fact is easily disproven. Take your average good street fighter, put them up against a well trained sport fighter and in that 1 on 1 the sport fighter is generally going to dominate in most aspects of the fight. Fighting trained fighters is a whole different world from fighting those that have not been trained (proper distance and keeping your hands up are two things that make a huge difference all by themselves).

Kimbo Slice was an example of this, a guy that was strong, had fought a lot on the street (presumably) and yet had a hard time at the lower levels of the sport fighting world. BJJ takes something that most certainly is not natural for most humans (moving on the ground) and makes an art form out of it, in fact the art itself was based largely in part on the concept of taking a person on in a range or way that took them out of their element. I think it was Maeda that really fleshed out this concept.

The problem with everyones thoughts about mma or bjj is that only see on tv or at the events is the super athletes whom have made it to the top. These elite martial sport athletes are less than 1% of the martial sport population.

99% of all people practice mma or bjj or sc or judo for that matter will never make it as a professional fighter on tv. It is unrealist to think that everyone will reach there level. These guys would have been superstars even if they were San Shou fighters or judo players or Karate fighters. Because of genetics, conditioning, will and superior skill they would have crushed anyone in any style would have chosen to follow.

My statement about anyone can jump into a mma or bjj club and compete with any beginner, intermediate ot even adavnced students still stands. MMA and the like rely on basic punches, kicks, grappling and throwing that ANYONE can do instictively without any training. Not that this non martial arts student is going to clean house with everyone in that club, but more he could hold his own.

I don't know know why many of you hold mma and ufc as the standard level Martial Art. You use mma fighters as the standard to gage everyone by. I don't see mma and ufc fighters as anything other than a Martial Sport. To me... martial sport is a incomplete martial art, only partially preparing the student for the self defense world.


I would love to see you stuck in a room with a meathead wrestler. You don't know what defenceless feels like until a high level grappler shuts you down.

Insert all your theories of how you can fend off somebody well trained and stronger than you here ______________________________ :rolleyes:

Syn7: I started high school wrestling at the age of 12, collegiate / freestyle wrestling in my teens and Shuai Chiao in my twenties. I have never stopped since, so that make about 38 years of wrestling experience. Hmmmmmmmm, I think I got wrestling under control here.


This is wrong bordering on asinine.

I think what you meant to say was you can throw a guy with 3 years of "traditional" gong fu training into the ring against a guy with 3 months of MMA/jiujitsu training and he'll get his clock cleaned.

Sorry wenshu but I stand by my statement. Anyone can walk into your average mma / bjj school and do well against any other average guy his weight or size.

ginosifu

[JamesC]

Gino, I have to say you're wrong.

When I trained submission grappling at 170lbs I routinely wiped the floor with big strong guys that came in and tried to use their strength only. Grappling is a chess game.

[Frost]

The problem with everyones thoughts about mma or bjj is that only see on tv or at the events is the super athletes whom have made it to the top. These elite martial sport athletes are less than 1% of the martial sport population.

99% of all people practice mma or bjj or sc or judo for that matter will never make it as a professional fighter on tv. It is unrealist to think that everyone will reach there level. These guys would have been superstars even if they were San Shou fighters or judo players or Karate fighters. Because of genetics, conditioning, will and superior skill they would have crushed anyone in any style would have chosen to follow.

My statement about anyone can jump into a mma or bjj club and compete with any beginner, intermediate ot even adavnced students still stands. MMA and the like rely on basic punches, kicks, grappling and throwing that ANYONE can do instictively without any training. Not that this non martial arts student is going to clean house with everyone in that club, but more he could hold his own.

I don't know know why many of you hold mma and ufc as the standard level Martial Art. You use mma fighters as the standard to gage everyone by. I don't see mma and ufc fighters as anything other than a Martial Sport. To me... martial sport is a incomplete martial art, only partially preparing the student for the self defense world.



Syn7: I started high school wrestling at the age of 12, collegiate / freestyle wrestling in my teens and Shuai Chiao in my twenties. I have never stopped since, so that make about 38 years of wrestling experience. Hmmmmmmmm, I think I got wrestling under control here.



Sorry wenshu but I stand by my statement. Anyone can walk into your average mma / bjj school and do well against any other average guy his weight or size.

ginosifu
im sorry but you are talking out of ignorance and with a bias thats just silly

For the record I judge MMA from the perspective of someone who has trained with both international UFC level fighters and guys fighting local c class comps and who only train twice a week, who has been a sparring partner for both guys getting ready for the UFC and guys going to into their first local comp.

i have over a decade in several different MMA gyms: my main MMA gym just had a team compete in the european naga event in paris and has 7 guys fighting on the next local MMA card and also has two guys going for national amateur titles

i have seen rugby players (both amateur and pro the city the gyms in is the mecca for rugby in the UK) powerlifters, east European OL weight lifters (the city is full of polish and others east europeans who have been doing lifting since they were young and all weight at least 95kg and all on decca lol) and they all come into class and get their backsides handed to them by beginner and mid level students because despite what you seem to think MMA is very technical and what you dont understand on the ground and standing will get you killed by a half decent fighters

So to reiterate in over a decade i have seen 110kg east european guys get there backsides handed to them by guys weighting under 90kg, i saw the coach who weighs all of 70kg knock one of them out for being an idiot in sparring with his mates and i have only seen one guy come in off the street and hold his own in sparring with mid level guys his own weight, and he turned out to be a former under 19 european judo champ, and he still got his bum handed to him by the coach and senior guys
so my question for you is how many local MMA clubs have you taken local meatheads into and watched them beat almost everyone? 1 2 or 5, over how many years did you do this?

[ginosifu]

so my question for you is how many local MMA clubs have you taken local meatheads into and watched them beat almost everyone? 1 2 or 5, over how many years did you do this?

I have NOT been to any mma clubs here. I base it on the mma fighters (many have come in the last 10 years) who have come to my school and challenged me or my students (basically they wanted to test their skill).

They all got their mma butts handed to them by my beginner San Shou students. Some of them switched and became my students.

I base it on the fact that I have wrestled for almost 40 years now and over the years I have seen many man with no experience come, put a Shuai Chiao jacket on and keep up most people in the class.

I base it on the fact that I have been a fighter for most my adult life (turning 50 this January). I judge things based on personal experiences. I have fought a cage / ucf style fight. I have many years of San Shou (I understand mma is different than San Shou).

I have been in MA basically since I was 12. I have my opinions about MA have been and will stay the same until someone proves me wrong, physically! I have respect for everyone here and the styles you have chosen to pursue.

Frost: I trust what you saying is all true, but I gotta see it to believe it myself. Actually I need someone to crush me with their mma skills and prove it to myself that they are right. I'm kinda stubborn like that sorry.

ginosifu

[Frost]

I have NOT been to any mma clubs here. I base it on the mma fighters (many have come in the last 10 years) who have come to my school and challenged me or my students (basically they wanted to test their skill).

They all got their mma butts handed to them by my beginner San Shou students. Some of them switched and became my students.

I base it on the fact that I have wrestled for almost 40 years now and over the years I have seen many man with no experience come, put a Shuai Chiao jacket on and keep up most people in the class.

I base it on the fact that I have been a fighter for most my adult life (turning 50 this January). I judge things based on personal experiences. I have fought a cage / ucf style fight. I have many years of San Shou (I understand mma is different than San Shou).

I have been in MA basically since I was 12. I have my opinions about MA have been and will stay the same until someone proves me wrong, physically! I have respect for everyone here and the styles you have chosen to pursue.

Frost: I trust what you saying is all true, but I gotta see it to believe it myself. Actually I need someone to crush me with their mma skills and prove it to myself that they are right. I'm kinda stubborn like that sorry.

ginosifu

so you haven;t seen any meathead actually go into an MMA gym and beat everyone, what you have seen is guys come in and hold there own with your students in chinese wrestling, and your sanda students beat MMA students, not quite the same as meatheads holding their own in a submission wrestling or MMA class wouldnt you agree?
and no need to be sorry we all need to see these things and not trust others words BUT lets say someone does beat you, what does that prove about MMA? you are not a meathead i think we can both agree on that? you are a very well trained martial artist with a strong competition background, hardly the kind of person you are talking about holding their own with MMA guys with no training correct?

[ginosifu]

and no need to be sorry we all need to see these things and not trust others words BUT lets say someone does beat you, what does that prove about MMA? you are not a meathead i think we can both agree on that? you are a very well trained martial artist with a strong competition background, hardly the kind of person you are talking about holding their own with MMA guys with no training correct?

My personal experiences listed above are the reason I stated anyone could go into an mma gym and hold his own (not fighting the elite champions, just your average students)

ginosifu

[Frost]

My personal experiences listed above are the reason I stated anyone could go into an mma gym and hold his own (not fighting the elite champions, just your average students)

ginosifu

and id say from my experience everyone i has seen try this gets a rude awakening, but like you say we all have different experiences and no need to get worked up about it, unless you are jamison that is :)

[YouKnowWho]

holding their own with MMA guys with no training correct?

I have

- seen some red neck used his brute force to knock down his boxer opponent in golden glove boxing.
- not seen any non-grappling red neck took down his Judo black belt opponent in Judo tournament.

Maybe the grappling art is different from the striking art. I just don't believe that no training can win in the area of grappling.

[Syn7]

Maybe the grappling art is different from the striking art. I just don't believe that no training can win in the area of grappling.

I agree. Assuming the size is similar. If the guy is twice your size, he has a decent chance of getting you down and pounding you out. Unless you can capitalize on a mistake and submit, he'll prolly hurt you.

[David Jamieson]

This is wrong bordering on asinine.

I think what you meant to say was you can throw a guy with 3 years of "traditional" gong fu training into the ring against a guy with 3 months of MMA/jiujitsu training and he'll get his clock cleaned.

That is as asinine a statement as any.

3 months of mma? please. That amounts to another bull**** meme.

Come on. Fighting is simple and can be executed and you can achieve without much intelligence otherwise.

[MasterKiller]

I have

- seen some red neck used his brute force to knock down his boxer opponent in golden glove boxing.
- not seen any non-grappling red neck took down his Judo black belt opponent in Judo tournament.

Maybe the grappling art is different from the striking art. I just don't believe that no training can win in the area of grappling.

Right. They call it a "puncher's chance" for a reason. You can always get lucky swinging your fists.

Wrestling/Grappling is a completely different story. No skill vs. Some skill is gonna lose 100% of the time, or at least be a stale mate if the skilled guy is just stalling.

[pateticorecords]

Why are we always arguing the same points... yeah, we know that TMA doesn't work that well in the ring. We know that MMA better prepares you for fighting.

So, cross-train, learn their moves, techniques, principles... then use it against them:D


“If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.” (Sun Tzu- Art of War)

My passion are TCMAs but I am also box and grapple/wrestle... I want to be able to be proficient in all areas.

[MasterKiller]

so, cross-train, learn their moves, techniques, principles... Then use it against them:d.

qft



.

[bawang]

but dirty barbarian MMA no honor

[pazman]

Why are we always arguing the same points... yeah, we know that TMA doesn't work that well in the ring. We know that MMA better prepares you for fighting.

So, cross-train, learn their moves, techniques, principles... then use it against them:D


“If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.” (Sun Tzu- Art of War)

My passion are TCMAs but I am also box and grapple/wrestle... I want to be able to be proficient in all areas.

I'm not sure if that was where the thread conversation was going.

[Syn7]

Fighting is simple and can be executed and you can achieve without much intelligence otherwise.

That really depends who you're fighting.

[David Jamieson]

That really depends who you're fighting.

Well, hypothetical queries can take you pretty far up your own ass if you really want them too.

I prefer to keep it real.

apples aren't oranges and vice versa. If someone wants to fight competitively nhb, then Traditional arts of any stripe are not for them.

If they want to G&P, they can't do just MT or KF, they have to cross train etc etc etc.

This conversation of x vs y is useless. It is dumb to tell a chess player that checkers is better. It's not, it's different and yet both are games by definition.

Boxers don't grapple and yet who goes to a boxing forum and tells them their style is lacking?

who goes to a MT gym and tells them their style is lacking?

Who goes to a wrestling club and tells them their style is lacking because they don't hit each other?

The simple fact that there are people who won't embrace that simple truth and don't understand that many Kung Fu practitioners have zero interest in fighting whatsoever and are looking to develop themselves through the art and not through that aspect of it sometimes stifles me.

Anyone who teaches Kung Fu knows this for a fact. They can outright ask a student if they would like to take a fight path or learn the forms and so on. Quite often, in fact most of the time, people do not want to take that fight path.

If they did, they can certainly sign up in any number of places that provide that and even then, there is a growing trend in traditional schools to offer that simply because of the exposure it gets in our bread and circuses world.

I think the original intent of the post was to find bridge for that in the people who take up Kung Fu for the sake of it and not for the opportunity to go toe to toe with someone in a spectacle. So, to immediately drive it to the spectacle end of fighting, which sportive combative is, is in my opinion, silly and winds up in teh mma vs tma dead end stupifying discussions.

[pateticorecords]

The United States Kuo Shu Federation was holding some decent Lei Tai tournaments. I Sifu Gino holds some events as well. Man Up Stand Up Traditional Wushu Fighting league is holding some interesting match ups...
there are options out there.

Many open style tournaments now have MMA, Grappling (Gi and No Gi), Stand up & Take-down-Throw, continuous sparring, continuous point sparring divisions.

MuSu Fight 2011 Choy Lay Fut Vs. Bagua http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWQvEFxCoZI

[ginosifu]

Well, hypothetical queries can take you pretty far up your own ass if you really want them too.

I prefer to keep it real.

apples aren't oranges and vice versa. If someone wants to fight competitively nhb, then Traditional arts of any stripe are not for them.

If they want to G&P, they can't do just MT or KF, they have to cross train etc etc etc.

This conversation of x vs y is useless. It is dumb to tell a chess player that checkers is better. It's not, it's different and yet both are games by definition.

Boxers don't grapple and yet who goes to a boxing forum and tells them their style is lacking?

who goes to a MT gym and tells them their style is lacking?

Who goes to a wrestling club and tells them their style is lacking because they don't hit each other?

The simple fact that there are people who won't embrace that simple truth and don't understand that many Kung Fu practitioners have zero interest in fighting whatsoever and are looking to develop themselves through the art and not through that aspect of it sometimes stifles me.

Anyone who teaches Kung Fu knows this for a fact. They can outright ask a student if they would like to take a fight path or learn the forms and so on. Quite often, in fact most of the time, people do not want to take that fight path.

If they did, they can certainly sign up in any number of places that provide that and even then, there is a growing trend in traditional schools to offer that simply because of the exposure it gets in our bread and circuses world.

I think the original intent of the post was to find bridge for that in the people who take up Kung Fu for the sake of it and not for the opportunity to go toe to toe with someone in a spectacle. So, to immediately drive it to the spectacle end of fighting, which sportive combative is, is in my opinion, silly and winds up in teh mma vs tma dead end stupifying discussions.

AGREED

How bout just a discussion about the thread title only? An all kung fu sport fighting discussion has merit in the kung fu world... Those of us wishing to discuss the finer details of kung fu sparring may not really care about other sport fighting venues.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why are we always arguing the same points... yeah, we know that TMA doesn't work that well in the ring. We know that MMA better prepares you for fighting.

So, cross-train, learn their moves, techniques, principles... then use it against them:D


“If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.” (Sun Tzu- Art of War)



Couldn't tell you how many times I and others have said just that.

[YouKnowWho]

most of the time, people do not want to take that fight path.
A teacher has right not to teach certain student. When a teacher tells his students that he wil not teach any forms, those students who are only interesting in "health", "performance", "inner peace" won't stay anyway. We can't force others but we can stay within our own principle and believe.


So, cross-train, learn their moves, techniques, principles... then use it against them:D
This is an excellent point. If you have never seen "pull guard", you may not be able to handle that situation well. Besides, to have somebody challenges your best techniques and you can still make it works, you will smile in your dream for the next 3 nights. That kind of satisfaction even money can't buy it.

[pateticorecords]

Couldn't tell you how many times I and others have said just that.
Oh, I know... don't post much but I read the forums quite often. I also appreciate your perspective on things as well Sanjuro!

[David Jamieson]

Yes a teacher has a right to teach what they want to offer to teach. But beyond that, it is hypothetical to assume that people won't stay if the teacher changes the curriculum.

I mean, think of what there is in a kung fu system to begin with.

Build strength, condition, body balance, meditation, fighting, cultural knowledge and performance, weapons, and so on.

Any "teacher" of Kung Fu should be able to offer the option of teaching someone to fight or directing them to someone who can get them on that track if they so desire and if time doesn't permit for that track in regular class.

When I was in a formal school, you could track towards fighting if you wanted, but the training cycle was totally different from the regular material and focus was given to sparring and conditioning. Form was pretty much eliminated in favour of drills that dealt with high % attacks and defense as one will find in a sport venue and so on.

It's not that big of a deal to split the class and if a teacher doesn't know, he probably knows someone who knows becasue of the merit of being a teacher.

If your teacher can't help you directly or through a contact, you probably shouldn't even have them as a teacher. Lesson learned.

[YouKnowWho]

Yes a teacher has a right to teach what they want to offer to teach. But beyond that, it is hypothetical to assume that people won't stay if the teacher changes the curriculum.

Sometime you may teach several thousands students but 99% of them are just bean sprouts and you don't seen trees. If you only accepte students who is willing to:

- compete in tournaments.
- be future teacher and pass information down to the next generation.

As a teacher, you will save a lot of time (may be not money).

[Golden Arms]

Sometime you may teach several thousands students but 99% of them are just bean sprouts and you don't seen trees. If you only accepte students who is willing to:

- compete in tournaments.
- be future teacher and pass information down to the next generation.

As a teacher, you will save a lot of time (may be not money).
This is pretty close to how I operate my group I teach. Everyone fights, and nobody is given different treatment regardless of sex or size. They all attend for close to 3 hours, 3-4 times a week and we work hard. Forms are only taught based on proficiency and if they can't remember what they have or can't use it, no need for more. It is great, the most rewarding teaching I have done, and they seem to find it rewarding as well.

[Syn7]

Well, hypothetical queries can take you pretty far up your own ass if you really want them too.

I prefer to keep it real.

apples aren't oranges and vice versa. If someone wants to fight competitively nhb, then Traditional arts of any stripe are not for them.

If they want to G&P, they can't do just MT or KF, they have to cross train etc etc etc.

This conversation of x vs y is useless. It is dumb to tell a chess player that checkers is better. It's not, it's different and yet both are games by definition.

Boxers don't grapple and yet who goes to a boxing forum and tells them their style is lacking?

who goes to a MT gym and tells them their style is lacking?

Who goes to a wrestling club and tells them their style is lacking because they don't hit each other?

The simple fact that there are people who won't embrace that simple truth and don't understand that many Kung Fu practitioners have zero interest in fighting whatsoever and are looking to develop themselves through the art and not through that aspect of it sometimes stifles me.

Anyone who teaches Kung Fu knows this for a fact. They can outright ask a student if they would like to take a fight path or learn the forms and so on. Quite often, in fact most of the time, people do not want to take that fight path.

If they did, they can certainly sign up in any number of places that provide that and even then, there is a growing trend in traditional schools to offer that simply because of the exposure it gets in our bread and circuses world.

I think the original intent of the post was to find bridge for that in the people who take up Kung Fu for the sake of it and not for the opportunity to go toe to toe with someone in a spectacle. So, to immediately drive it to the spectacle end of fighting, which sportive combative is, is in my opinion, silly and winds up in teh mma vs tma dead end stupifying discussions.

Wow, you really read a lot into what I said, huh!

I have no issue with kung fu for health. None. Well, some of it is pretty weak. But overall, no problem.

I'm not an mma guy and I'm not here to knock CMA. I do have opinions as to what works for combat and what doesn't, but it is by no means a mma vs CMA dynamic and sports are something else altogether. There are things I see in mma that I would never do in a real fight and some of the practice they use to condition themselves is very near sighted IMO. That being said, I think it's weak when a health oriented art with no combat experience claims otherwise. I also have issue with kung fu for health that is actually unhealthy in many ways. Some is subjective and still requires more debate and testing. Some is rock solid. But then that's just my opinion.

Maybe you are so used to having the same argument that YOU are having trouble breaking out of it. I'm good. I know the difference between health, combat and sports.

[Syn7]

The United States Kuo Shu Federation was holding some decent Lei Tai tournaments. I Sifu Gino holds some events as well. Man Up Stand Up Traditional Wushu Fighting league is holding some interesting match ups...
there are options out there.

Many open style tournaments now have MMA, Grappling (Gi and No Gi), Stand up & Take-down-Throw, continuous sparring, continuous point sparring divisions.

MuSu Fight 2011 Choy Lay Fut Vs. Bagua http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWQvEFxCoZI

I think that's awesome that so many styles are now willing to venture out to other tourneys and allowing other styles into theirs. Of course there is a need to keep X vs X tourneys for those styles, but it's really great to see how many people are now open to learning from other sources. I remember when it was a Karate tourney or TKD tourney and unless you had a sponsor to show you practice that art, they wouldn't even let you in.

[Syn7]

Sometime you may teach several thousands students but 99% of them are just bean sprouts and you don't seen trees. If you only accepte students who is willing to:

- compete in tournaments.
- be future teacher and pass information down to the next generation.

As a teacher, you will save a lot of time (may be not money).

Agreed.

Money has really watered down the whole culture, in many ways. It's kinda sad.

I feel very fortunate to have found a teacher who has a profitable day job. But I have no doubt there are some great professional teachers who do it for the love. And those guys would be training everyday with class and then doing their personal stuff on the side, so I imagine they refine their skills quite a bit.

[Lucas]

Agreed.

Money has really watered down the whole culture, in many ways. Right back to the original sources in most cases. Look at what The Shaolin Temple has become. It's kinda sad.

you disgrace the temple and despoil my wife. i challenge you to deathmatch

[David Jamieson]

Everything is monetized.

I think it's even worse over here where they monetize spirituality so you have to pay for spiritual guidance etc.

But that's the nature of humanity, televangelists or collection plate christianity, kabbalah sales are through the roof in k centres and so on and so forth.

Heck, you'll pay to learn to meditate here.

It's no better or worse here. Money isn't the problem. Intention is the problem if it is ill guided or negatively assumptive.

A man's gotta eat and if his only skill is "x" who are you or I to deny them the opportunity to make a living off the skill they have to offer?

[Syn7]

Yeah, that douche that James Randi exposed is back to his old faith healing tricks. Peter Popoff. He was bankrupted shortly after being exposed on The Carson Show. Now he's back and worth like 23 million.

That is how sad we are. A fraud is exposed and some of us still want to believe. That's some shameful **** right there. But VERY common.

[Bacon]

Yeah, that douche that James Randi exposed is back to his old faith healing tricks. Peter Popoff. He was bankrupted shortly after being exposed on The Carson Show. Now he's back and worth like 23 million.

That is how sad we are. A fraud is exposed and some of us still want to believe. That's some shameful **** right there. But VERY common.

*cough* Religion *cough*

[Syn7]

Everything is monetized.

I think it's even worse over here where they monetize spirituality so you have to pay for spiritual guidance etc.

But that's the nature of humanity, televangelists or collection plate christianity, kabbalah sales are through the roof in k centres and so on and so forth.

Heck, you'll pay to learn to meditate here.

It's no better or worse here. Money isn't the problem. Intention is the problem if it is ill guided or negatively assumptive.

A man's gotta eat and if his only skill is "x" who are you or I to deny them the opportunity to make a living off the skill they have to offer?

What if my skill is taking what you have? Or my skills are harmful to us all in one way or another(vice supply, environmental mess etc etc)?

I think the main problem is that people can't do for self anymore.

If you drop me off in the bush with a few basic supplies(which depend entirely on where I am), I will be fine. If you drop me off in a major metro area, I will be fine. I can adapt well, I have many times. I can set all sorts of traps, I can purify water, I can field dress an animal, I can make many different weapons with common materials found in the woods. I know how to survive a night in a desert sandstorm. I can go on, but you get the point. It didn't take much to learn these things. I just come from self reliant stock. For whatever reason my line has retained this knowledge.

That being said, I can also build electronics, I can fab parts for motors and all sorts of useful builds. I can woodwork, I mix my own chemicals and understand how to safely handle them. I know how to extract elements from many different compounds etc etc...

And none of it relates to my day job and I still have time to pursue three separate performing arts.

People are just lazy and want things done for them. Instead of playing Nintendo all night, I played for a few games then figured out how to build my own. I think many people lack the curiosity and the drive to be self reliant in dynamic ways. And it makes them so susceptible to manipulation. I still spend a lil time every now and then to learn new things I may or may not ever need.
Like when will I ever need to make a rabbit snare? I have guns. But I feel better knowing that I know. My whole childhood was one giant lesson in E&E and basic survival. Wouldn't trade it for the world.

[David Jamieson]

You have a particular way of resorting to the hypothetical.
I don't deal with those syn7.

Nor do I make suppositions about "people" too much in regards to what we think or feel. We don't do that collectively and each and everyone of us is somewhat different from the next.

There are plenty of rural folk who can do all the things you are saying "people" don't do. They do this. People live off the land in many places. People who live in the city can't be expected to live off the land, it is counter intuitive and not available to them.

I think if we all sat down and gave it some thought we could find a skill we have that is useful and relevant.

[pateticorecords]

The way I see it is that there are plenty of training aides to accommodate various contact levels within all martial arts while training on resistance, endurance, and combat.

There are plenty of pads, head protection, gloves, etc.... train like you are fighting, both competitively as well as reality based, test your skills... and you will see what works and what doesn't FOR YOU! Ultimately it is about how you fair off... not your art, not your lineage, not you master, etc.

I know plenty of people who train under famous martial arts, high ranking within their styles, boost about their lineage, etc. that can't defend themselves... but hey they do great forms, do nice techniques demos, etc.

I have also met people who somewhat taught themselves that would destroy those higher ranking individuals mentioned above.

[pateticorecords]

maybe we should be doing this instead...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNCeCNO2yuM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bTiU-73UDo
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/220359/felony_fights_5/

[pateticorecords]

maybe we should be doing this instead...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNCeCNO2yuM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bTiU-73UDo
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/220359/felony_fights_5/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhK4-VWvsgw

[Syn7]

You have a particular way of resorting to the hypothetical.
I don't deal with those syn7.

Nor do I make suppositions about "people" too much in regards to what we think or feel. We don't do that collectively and each and everyone of us is somewhat different from the next.

There are plenty of rural folk who can do all the things you are saying "people" don't do. They do this. People live off the land in many places. People who live in the city can't be expected to live off the land, it is counter intuitive and not available to them.

I think if we all sat down and gave it some thought we could find a skill we have that is useful and relevant.

I was born and raised in the third largest city in this nation. I am no country boy. I learned all these things in the city and surrounding districts. Anybody can learn almost anything if they have the desire and the capacity. I don't think everyone should learn to trap. But I do feel that most people refine their skill sets with very little foresight into the reality of what could be. They tend to develop their sets based on what they want rather than what they need. Not enough diversification. Too focused on money. I don't disagree with trade, I just think we went the wrong way with it.

I brought up the hypothetical to show how it is not black and white. There are very few universal rules when dealing with social behaviour. And many of the jobs people do to get by are harming us all. We have a long way to go. I'm sure you can agree with that.

[YouKnowWho]

They tend to develop their sets based on what they want rather than what they need.
It's very unlikely that the person you have to fight next time in the street who happens to train the same style as you do.

The reason that we train TCMA is to solve problems. We don't know whether our problem will come from boxer, MT guy, wrestler, BJJ guy, ... We don't have luxury to choice that.

[Syn7]

It's very unlikely that the person you have to fight next time in the street who happens to train the same style as you do.

The reason that we train TCMA is to solve problems. We don't know whether our problem will come from boxer, MT guy, wrestler, BJJ guy, ... We don't have luxury to choice that.

lol, that quote wasn't about martial skill sets. But it could be. I like where you took that. And it speaks directly to the point I was making to David. You don't know what life will throw at you. If you spend all your time mastering computer science then an Em pulse wipes out everything, now how useful are you? That's when knowing simple things about living naturally come in very handy.

Another analogy would be when somebody puts years of training into learning a field of study that becomes obsolete right when they are trying to enter the work force. You know everything about something nobody cares about or will want to use because there are better options. Diversification is key. You don't have to be a jack of all, master of none. But you should spread out as much as you can while maintaining a realistic quality of life. Balance.

[YouKnowWho]

If you spend all your time mastering computer science

Many years ago all computer science major had to learn:

- programming language,
- computer architecture,
- automata theory,
- numerical analysis,
- data base,
- operation system.

Today the computer science market are for:

- website design,
- search engine,
- antivirus,
- application server,
- ...

It's much easier to teach Taiji in Chen village. It's much harder to do so outside of China.

[Syn7]

Yeah, even when designing electronics, I have software that makes it much easier to design a circuit than using a breadboard and a calculator.