Why don't you test your skill in MMA gym when you are still young?

[YouKnowWho]

MMA gym is an excellent place to test your skill. If I'm 20 years younger, I'll spend everyday in MMA gym to have fun.

I just received the following E-mail from one of my guys. IMO, he has the correct attitude.

What's your thought?
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I have a couple places lined out for training, there is very little CMA that offers San Shou in Dallas! I will most likely be hanging out at a big MMA gym that I know some people from. MMA guys love to wrestle/spar and train hard, so I enjoy working out with them very much. Plus I don't have to reveal anything to them about my tricks or style. I usually have a very different style than most MMA/BJJ guys, so it is good for me. The gym I am thinking about has some outstanding wrestlers, so that is a huge deal for me.

[jimbob]

I couldn't agree more. Age and other commitments beat me this time around, but just like you, if I had 20 or even 15 years up my sleeve I would have loved to have done a lot more crosstraining. Funny - I started CLF 34 years ago. I also took extra judo classes a couple of years after that but never really enjoyed it - yet when I had the chance to do some grappling I loved it. Guess I was more ready for it then and by that stage had been exposed to years of technical dishonesty in TCM.

It would have been nice to see how I would have developed in this direction, but too many other interests, too little time and a wife - you can only do so much.

[Frost]

i do and have done so for a decade, as for the whole age thing my sifu is in his 50's and still tests himself in local MMA gyms and judo clubs

[MightyB]

i do and have done so for a decade, as for the whole age thing my sifu is in his 50's and still tests himself in local MMA gyms and judo clubs

Cool!
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I've been cross training for quite some time and love going to the MMA gym whenever I get the chance. They seem to be just as welcoming and friendly as any other and are gracious to have the chance to see something different... and they recognize value in something that you might not be able to pull off live from your style and will work it and rework it to help you and them to get it to work.

[IronFist]

I did.

It's why I stopped trying to use TCMA techniques against resisting opponents.

http://10000victories.com/Teens_and_Adults_Kung_Fu/kung_fu_self_defense_4_skills_img/kung_fu_self_defense_4_skills.jpg

Great thread!

[Syn7]

It's why I stopped trying to use TCMA techniques against resisting opponents.

Tons of TCMA works, you just need to learn how to work it and practice it properly. Of course a teacher who only does forms for performance can't teach you how to work it.

So you go to an MMA gym exclusively now? Do you not use any TCMA in your training?

I've trained a few arts and I consider my TCMA to just be icing on the cake. I can fight without it, but I enjoy finding ways to make it work for me and fit into my own style. And it does work. Not always exactly as advertised, but quite often the basic principles are valid. Take away all the flowery sh1t and look at what the intent is, and go from there.

[EarthDragon]

I teach my kung fu classes out of our school which is 7500 sq feet and very expensive so I have4 other teachers bjj wrestling boxing aikido adn kick boxing which totally qualifies us as a MMA gym.
I often find that my kung fu guys stand up and throws work well on all a accounts but the ground game is where kung fu lacks, however many of our joint locks work well on the ground and we have some fallen fighting skills but you just cant beat the wrestlers and BJJ guys on the ground only, you must have a well rounded cirriculum to work form otherwise your just fooling yourself oif you consider yourself to a be a true fighter.
PS I am hosting and judging MMA and USMTA every 3 months and seeing some really good fighter come up, anyone who wanted to get in the ring email me message me I accept fighter s form all over. we have over 2k in attenqadance last fight, I also have them at te night club with 2 floors and you can watch the fits and drink, its awesome gets roudy realo quick. LOL

[EarthDragon]

https://www.facebook.com/events/list#!/events/443058902397619/

[IronFist]

Tons of TCMA works, you just need to learn how to work it and practice it properly. Of course a teacher who only does forms for performance can't teach you how to work it.

I personally was unable to make TCMA techniques work against resisting boxing/MMA opponents. I'm not saying nobody can, I'm just saying I can't. And I haven't seen anyone in the professional fighting arena do it, either. Not saying it can't be done.

However, for the sake of fairness, I need to mention that I did use TCMA Wing Chun techniques once. That situation was not a "fight," though. I was standing there and a dude came up to me with a box cutter held to my chest. I did a pak da and punched him in the chest while knocking his hand away. I believe it was the right technique for the situation.

However, if I was squared up against an opponent in a fight, I would not use TCMA techniques. Extensive testing against multiple resisting opponents in an MMA gym have made me realize I cannot make them work against resisting boxers and MMA people. The pak da situation above was a one off situation; not a fight.

I do think some WC stuff is good if you're just standing there and are attacked out of nowhere, but once its time to take a fighting stance, I would not use TCMA.


So you go to an MMA gym exclusively now?

I did. Then I moved to a place where there was no MMA gym and kinda stopped MA training.


Do you not use any TCMA in your training?

Correct, I do not use any TCMA in my training. I do believe TCMA has the right idea when it comes to things like hand conditioning, fist training, etc. Very slow, steady progress over time. But other than that, I think it kind of misses the mark with everything else, for example, holding horse stance for extended periods of time.


I've trained a few arts and I consider my TCMA to just be icing on the cake. I can fight without it, but I enjoy finding ways to make it work for me and fit into my own style. And it does work. Not always exactly as advertised, but quite often the basic principles are valid. Take away all the flowery sh1t and look at what the intent is, and go from there.

If you can make it work for you then by all means, keep doing what is working for you.

[YouKnowWho]

The advantage for going to MMA gym to test your skill are:

- If your skill work, keep doing it. If your skill doesn't work, modify it to make it work.
- It's hard to find sparring/wrestling partner outside of your comfortable zone, MMA gym will give you the training partners that you are looking for.
- In MMA gym, nobody care about what style that you train. Style won't be an issue in those environment. .

[IronFist]

The advantage for going to MMA gym to test your skill are:

- If your skill work, keep doing it. If your skill doesn't work, modify it to make it work.
- It's hard to find sparring/wrestling partner outside of your comfortable zone, MMA gym will give you the training partners that you are looking for.
- In MMA gym, nobody care about what style that you train. Style won't be an issue in those environment. .

Agree with all this.

MMA groups I've trained with have encouraged me to try other styles' techniques. That was probably because if they worked, they wanted to know them :p

[Syn7]

I personally was unable to make TCMA techniques work against resisting boxing/MMA opponents. I'm not saying nobody can, I'm just saying I can't. And I haven't seen anyone in the professional fighting arena do it, either. Not saying it can't be done.

However, for the sake of fairness, I need to mention that I did use TCMA Wing Chun techniques once. That situation was not a "fight," though. I was standing there and a dude came up to me with a box cutter held to my chest. I did a pak da and punched him in the chest while knocking his hand away. I believe it was the right technique for the situation.

However, if I was squared up against an opponent in a fight, I would not use TCMA techniques. Extensive testing against multiple resisting opponents in an MMA gym have made me realize I cannot make them work against resisting boxers and MMA people. The pak da situation above was a one off situation; not a fight.

I do think some WC stuff is good if you're just standing there and are attacked out of nowhere, but once its time to take a fighting stance, I would not use TCMA.



I did. Then I moved to a place where there was no MMA gym and kinda stopped MA training.



Correct, I do not use any TCMA in my training. I do believe TCMA has the right idea when it comes to things like hand conditioning, fist training, etc. Very slow, steady progress over time. But other than that, I think it kind of misses the mark with everything else, for example, holding horse stance for extended periods of time.



If you can make it work for you then by all means, keep doing what is working for you.

Well, with all due respect, I do not consider WC to be the most combat oriented CMA. Not to say it's useless, it's just not where I would go with my CMA.\

For me static stance training is more of a mental thing. If I want to engage those muscle groups with a full range of motion I'll just do a few varieties of squats.
That being said, I don't spend much time in a horse stance. It's something I may do after stretching but before my main workout. I find it's a great opportunity to get my head into what I'm about to do.

[IronFist]

Well, with all due respect, I do not consider WC to be the most combat oriented CMA. Not to say it's useless, it's just not where I would go with my CMA.\

Yeah, I wasn't able to make WC work against resisting non-WC opponents.

But like I said, if you're just standing there and someone randomly comes up and attacks you, I think some of the techniques, such as pak da or lop da make for good startle reactions.

But after that initial moment I wouldn't use WC anymore.

[Syn7]

I find most of the chinna to be effective in some way or another. Not always as advertised, but the fundamentals are sound.

I learned a hopga form that I still love. The way it starts is so simple and effective. It has such a nice flow. If somebody grabs me the way it starts, I will use it without even thinking about it. The way it flows, I can move into stuff I'm more familiar with as far as throws are concerned. It also sets up a sweet double, landing in side control with an arm.

[jimbob]

The advantage for going to MMA gym to test your skill are:

- If your skill work, keep doing it. If your skill doesn't work, modify it to make it work.
- It's hard to find sparring/wrestling partner outside of your comfortable zone, MMA gym will give you the training partners that you are looking for.
- In MMA gym, nobody care about what style that you train. Style won't be an issue in those environment. .

One more advantage is realising that your teacher didn't really have all the answers. When you start training at a young age like I did, it's hard not to see your teacher as a combination of your second father and God - which is ultimately a little restrictive for later learning if you don't lose that attitude.

One good way to lose that attitude is to mix it up with other people from different backgrounds.

Doesn't mean I think any less of my teacher - just that I had many many more options than I used to realise I did.

I agree with what others have said too - most of the MMA people I've met have been a hell of a lot more open, friendly and welcoming than the 'traditionalists'.

[MightyB]

well - if you cross train, you realize it's all Jeet Kune Do in the end.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/396276_4920040441426_1221716053_n.jpg

[pateticorecords]

Choy Lay Fut Vs. Bagua http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWQvEFxCoZI

[sanjuro_ronin]

All MA were created and developed for fighting with fighting in mind, that is THE tradition of MA.
Anyone that does NOT fight and test their MA skills in the best possible way, is going against the very tradition of MA and should be ashamed to call themselves a "traditionalist" much less a MA.
One certainly does not need to fight all their "MA lives", there comes a time when, perhaps, too much fighting can be detrimental to MA development even, BUT no one well ever develop themselves to an decent level in a MA without fighting.

[MightyB]

Choy Lay Fut Vs. Bagua http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWQvEFxCoZI

Aww Man - at 1:29 he missed his chance to give his opponent a good ol' fashioned ol' skool Kimura Teabagging.

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/kimuragracie.jpg

[pateticorecords]

Aww Man - at 1:29 he missed his chance to give his opponent a good ol' fashioned ol' skool Kimura Teabagging.

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/kimuragracie.jpg hahahaha... too funny.

I like the video because you can see their styles in action plus they are hitting each other pretty hard too...lol

[jimbob]

All MA were created and developed for fighting with fighting in mind, that is THE tradition of MA.
Anyone that does NOT fight and test their MA skills in the best possible way, is going against the very tradition of MA and should be ashamed to call themselves a "traditionalist" much less a MA.
One certainly does not need to fight all their "MA lives", there comes a time when, perhaps, too much fighting can be detrimental to MA development even, BUT no one well ever develop themselves to an decent level in a MA without fighting.

Sanjuro

Respectfully, I think we need to distinguish between what were arts of civil self defence, and arts that were designed for mutual confrontation. The second lot are what I would call "fighting'' arts - boxing, muay thai, wrestling, judo... - yes they're also sports, but they're specifically developed to go against other athletically trained practitioners who are trying to best you in mutually agreed upon competition.

The self defence arts are what I think of as the TMA's. The initial intention was to protect someone against an unexpected attack. Of course, they have themselves developed (many of them anyway) along more sporting lines, but you often see the result when you put an art from this self defence tradition against an art that has specifically prepared a person to fight someone with equal skills and training - they don't fare well. I don't think an art like Wing Chun, for example, competes that well with Muay Thai - because their initial goals were different.

I agree with you 100% that if you promote yourself as a 'practitioner of fighting' you should be testing yourself and your skills at every opportunity. I don't necessarily see self defence as fighting or fighting as self defence though - and there are many many TMA's who are perhaps trying to 'fight' without the necessary basis in mutual combat. You can only adapt self defence techniques so far for the ring/cage. If learning to protect oneself is the goal, then pressure testing is certainly necessary, but may not need to come from ring/cage/tournament experience.

[YouKnowWho]

MMA didnot exist in the previous generation. How to modify your (general YOU) technique to work for the modern MMA environment is your responsibility. If you don't try your skill in MMA environment, you may not even know that you will need to modify your technique.

According to SC rule, if any 2 points of your body touch the ground first, you lose that round and that round is over. You would never use "pull guard" in SC tournament because you just gave your opponent a free round. When a SC guy was dragged down by "pull guard" the 1st time, it could be a shocking experience. His new experience would force him to adapt his strategy not to be dragged down again. His entering strategy (use 90 degree entering instead of body spin), defense strategy (use more cracking and leg springing) will need to be modified and that's a good thing because in street fight, there will be no rules.

I don't like to look at this as style vs. style. To me, the WC chain punches is just like the boxing, jab, cross, jab, cross, ... When I was 11, I was taught to drill "1 step 3 punches" and nothing else for 3 years. In those 3 years, I didn't know what style that I was training. Even today, I still don't know "1 step 3 punches" training is for "self defence" or "mutual confrontation" but trying to land all 3 of my punches on my oppponent's head.

[IronFist]

well - if you cross train, you realize it's all Jeet Kune Do in the end.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/396276_4920040441426_1221716053_n.jpg

Cool pic. I've never seen that one before and I have a bunch of books on Bruce Lee.

[jimbob]

MMA didnot exist in the previous generation. How to modify your (general YOU) technique to work for the modern MMA environment is your responsibility. If you don't try your skill in MMA environment, you may not even know that you will need to modify your technique.


I don't like to look at this as style vs. style. To me, the WC chain punches is just like the boxing, jab, cross, jab, cross, ... When I was 11, I was taught to drill "1 step 3 punches" and nothing else for 3 years. In those 3 years, I didn't know what style that I was training. Even today, I still don't know "1 step 3 punches" training is for "self defence" or "mutual confrontation" but trying to land all 3 of my punches on my oppponent's head.

John - I agree with everything you say here. My point was that there are many (many) schools - not just Chinese based ones - that either haven't modified their technique to see if it works under pressure, or if they have, they haven't done it with good experience, yet still present themselves as 'fighting' arts.

I also agree - style vs style doesn't make a lot of sense because it's only 2 arms and 2 legs. Strangely enough, I referenced the wing chun/thai because of a conversation I had years back with a senior student in one of Australia's wing chun schools. I was saying to him the chain punch could just as easily be a jab/straight/straight combo - but he insisted it wouldn't then be wing chun because the elbow wasn't down and the hands didn't roll across each other and blah blah blah. Then I saw him get knocked out by a thai style fighter, who hit him with a jab/cross combo.

[IronFist]

I was saying to him the chain punch could just as easily be a jab/straight/straight combo - but he insisted it wouldn't then be wing chun because the elbow wasn't down and the hands didn't roll across each other and blah blah blah.

I agree with the student.

Styles have certain techniques. Wing Chun punches look like Wing Chun punches. If you are doing a boxing jab and cross, it's not a chain punch, and it's not a Wing Chun punch, and it's not Wing Chun.

This is why, when TMA dudes spar and it "looks like kickboxing," it is kickboxing.

Some people will say that it is still the original style because you're applying the same principles. This is wrong.

A Wing Chun punch, a TKD punch, an Isshinryu punch, and a boxing punch are all different. They all have the same principles (hit your opponent using efficient energy, etc.), but they are all different techniques. If a Wing Chun dude throws a horizontal fist boxing cross, he doesn't get to say he used a Wing Chun technique. If he did it from a Wing Chun stance, then sure it's some hybrid.

This is part of the reason we can tell which techniques are most effective in fighting; by watching and seeing who wins and what they did, and then looking at what styles use those techniques and train them in a realistic manner.