In London -WING CHUN CHI SAO INTERNATIONAL IS COMING IN JUNE !!

[Alan Orr]

WING CHUN CHI SAO INTERNATIONAL IS COMING IN JUNE !!

London International Open Series on 8th June 2013.

I will be posting more about the event asap. Please contact me if you like to fight and be part of the event in any way.

Wing Chun needs some form of a testing platform even if like all sport events limitations to full skills are in place. We need to have a format that tests basic skills so we can move the art forward!

Please email me at alan@10thlegion.tv if you have a team or would like to enter or would like to help out.

[Alan Orr]

www.wingchunevents.co.uk

New web site is up!

[Bacon]

Alan you should know as well as anyone that chi sao is a training tool. Having a chi sao competition is just as silly as having a pak sao competiton or a chi gerk competition or a forms competition.

If people want to test their skills they need to spar. Four ounce MMA gloves. Medium contact. Face cage on the headgear if people don't want to get their face busted up.

[Alan Orr]

Alan you should know as well as anyone that chi sao is a training tool. Having a chi sao competition is just as silly as having a pak sao competiton or a chi gerk competition or a forms competition.

If people want to test their skills they need to spar. Four ounce MMA gloves. Medium contact. Face cage on the headgear if people don't want to get their face busted up.



I should know? Why do people think they know what I know or am thinking?

Yes I do know as my guys have had over 250 fights MMA, Boxing, K1, Grappling, Chi Sao.

Sparring with face cage headgear and mma gloves with medium contact is not anything thats what I do know.

Using face headgear teaches you nothing. We tried this 20 years ago before mma. It is not a safe why to train it teaches the wrong things. Someone hitting you in the face when you have no idea of the impact is wrong. That's why you see robot wing chun. Taking turns chain punching each other with a lack of power understanding and a lack of balance. Its just bad kickboxing. Guys that spar like that will get owned in MMA and will be taken apart by a good K1 guy.


You either do -

Sparring with Boxing gloves - so you can hit and know what it is like to be hit and deal with continuing problems of a fight under the pressure of being hit. This way you find what you need to do to control the ranges in and out.

Chi Sao - Light rolling or controlled rolling for learning

Chi Sao - With the pressure of being hit with some power to the body and controlled contact to the head. That way you test the core skills - balance, timing, positioning under the pressure of someone trying to hit and control you back. Then you develop your timing to strike in close range.


The idea of the chi sao event is - testing core skills. Balance, timing, close range power, positioning and control of your opponent.

[Bacon]

I said face cage if... Boxing gloves are great for limiting damage but they stop you doing 90% of wing chun techniques. MMA sparring gloves will limit the damage but give enough movement in the wrist and feeling from the hands to do wing chun.

And as I said... Chi Sao is a training tool. It is not a competition. Neither is chi gerk. Neither is pak sao. Neither are forms.
Push hands is a test of many of those things too but it too is a training tool, not a competition.

[Alan Orr]

I said face cage if... Boxing gloves are great for limiting damage but they stop you doing 90% of wing chun techniques. MMA sparring gloves will limit the damage but give enough movement in the wrist and feeling from the hands to do wing chun.

And as I said... Chi Sao is a training tool. It is not a competition. Neither is chi gerk. Neither is pak sao. Neither are forms.
Push hands is a test of many of those things too but it too is a training tool, not a competition.

Boxing gloves do not stop 90% of wing chun. If you look at wing chun as techniques then you don't understand the art. MMA Gloves are for MMA, In MMA we need spar with MMA gloves.

Push hands is a great test of balance, timing etc so the Chi Sao event is the same. Testing your core skills under some pressure. The event is no gloves so you have all you hand movement. But you are free to use power and deal with it. That is the important training of Chi Sao. Dealing with close range power.

[Bacon]

Boxing gloves do not stop 90% of wing chun. If you look at wing chun as techniques then you don't understand the art. MMA Gloves are for MMA, In MMA we need spar with MMA gloves.

Push hands is a great test of balance, timing etc so the Chi Sao event is the same. Testing your core skills under some pressure. The event is no gloves so you have all you hand movement. But you are free to use power and deal with it. That is the important training of Chi Sao. Dealing with close range power.

If you want to test wing chun techniques under pressure spar with mma gloves.

Yes the basic principles are still there but you lose a lot of wing chun techniques because a big part of wing chun is the tactile sensation, redirection from the first gate using wrist and fingers. You can't even do a huen sao or a fook sao in boxing gloves which are basic to wing chun. Saying wing chun isn't technique based is almost like saying boxing has nothing to do with the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut or that savage has nothing to do with using your feet.

And back to the chi sal competiton I'm at least glad you're doing it bare handed even if I think it's a waste of time.

[Alan Orr]

If you want to test wing chun techniques under pressure spar with mma gloves.

Yes the basic principles are still there but you lose a lot of wing chun techniques because a big part of wing chun is the tactile sensation, redirection from the first gate using wrist and fingers. You can't even do a huen sao or a fook sao in boxing gloves which are basic to wing chun. Saying wing chun isn't technique based is almost like saying boxing has nothing to do with the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut or that savage has nothing to do with using your feet.

And back to the chi sal competiton I'm at least glad you're doing it bare handed even if I think it's a waste of time.

People don't spar with MMA gloves as you will be cut up and hurt very quickly.

Wing Chun is a chinese boxing style so if you lose 90% when punching and kicking then I say you don't know wing chun as a functional art.

Have you trained long? Which style do you train in?

Of course you can use Huen and Fook with gloves.

Chi Sao they gains you a deeper understanding is never a waste of time.

[k gledhill]

There are many VT students who see 'Chi sao competition' as an oxy-moron. VT is not a sporting system, so having fingers and thumbs available is important to manipulate arms during a tactical execution or variations in striking.
I agree, sparring using 4-6oz mma gloves is fine, we spar this way regularly and not in chi-sao drilling.
Boxing gloves wont allow VT fighters lines of interception to function correctly either [if they know this way] or basic 'bread & butter' repertoire of simultaneous techniques.
The boxing glove design will make you punch outside the center-line in parallel to it, leaving the inside gate open to a lat sao jik chun striking concepts. Wong Shun Leung used this method, so do I, against boxers in my gym.

[Alan Orr]

There are many VT students who see 'Chi sao competition' as an oxy-moron. VT is not a sporting system, so having fingers and thumbs available is important to manipulate arms during a tactical execution or variations in striking.
I agree, sparring using 4-6oz mma gloves is fine, we spar this way regularly and not in chi-sao drilling.
Boxing gloves wont allow VT fighters lines of interception to function correctly either [if they know this way] or basic 'bread & butter' repertoire of simultaneous techniques.
The boxing glove design will make you punch outside the center-line in parallel to it, leaving the inside gate open to a lat sao jik chun striking concepts. Wong Shun Leung used this method, so do I, against boxers in my gym.

And the point of your post is .... nothing.

Wing Chun is a fighting system. If you want to improve your skills in the real world then some sort of pressure testing is good for people on many levels.

You either thinks that's a good idea or not. You are either interested or not. No need to be insecure and explain yourself.

[k gledhill]

And the point of your post is .... nothing.

Wing Chun is a fighting system. If you want to improve your skills in the real world then some sort of pressure testing is good for people on many levels.

You either thinks that's a good idea or not. You are either interested or not. No need to be insecure and explain yourself.

The point is obviously beyond you....have fun Alan.

[chris bougeard]

Kevin, i have been a lurker on this forum for some time and find it incredibly funny how you constantly criticize what other people do, whether chi sao competitions, how they train/drill etc.

Yet, you have never once put up a clip of how you do things, why is that?

Referring to other peoples clips and saying "yep thats what we do" is a cop out imo.

I expect its the "im very comfortable with my VT and i dont need to justify myself to anyone". Thats fine, but i cant see how you can expect people to take your critiques without showing them what they are doing wrong...

Alan has HOURS of material to view, he has nothing to hide and is very open when asked about his method. Just for once, lets see an example of YOUR Wing Chun. Lets see how YOU do chi sao, and lets see how YOU spar, especially against a boxer. It could just be that we are all practicing incorrectly and we can learn from you.

Chris

[LoneTiger108]

www.wingchunevents.co.uk

New web site is up!

It's interesting to see this come back round again Alan and I'm sure you will make the best out of the event and do a decent promotion of Wing Chun. Maybe it will have a better chance of success too if it sits outside the SENI arena.

I have also noticed an increased interest from within our family too, so maybe expect a few guys to enrol!

As you already know, it's not my thing, but I for one understand why it could be very useful in the current climate to give guys an outlet to test basic skill. The only difficulty is giving every competitor an equal opportunity to prepare for your own rule sets and interactive ways, because from what I have seen before not everybody rolls how you roll sir! So the 3 roll thing throws up questions already...

[k gledhill]

Kevin, i have been a lurker on this forum for some time and find it incredibly funny how you constantly criticize what other people do, whether chi sao competitions, how they train/drill etc.

Yet, you have never once put up a clip of how you do things, why is that?

Referring to other peoples clips and saying "yep thats what we do" is a cop out imo.

I expect its the "im very comfortable with my VT and i dont need to justify myself to anyone". Thats fine, but i cant see how you can expect people to take your critiques without showing them what they are doing wrong...

Alan has HOURS of material to view, he has nothing to hide and is very open when asked about his method. Just for once, lets see an example of YOUR Wing Chun. Lets see how YOU do chi sao, and lets see how YOU spar, especially against a boxer. It could just be that we are all practicing incorrectly and we can learn from you.

Chris

Chris, chi-sao is a drill to develop reflex like reactions to perpetuate an attack with interceptions. It involves mutual goals, not competitive winners and losers. Sparring with vt involves a lot of movement and angling. In chi-sao we start in a static position so we can each train lines of engagement, balance in contact, hand coordination to use when striking at speeds with an opponent. A lot of the things done in chi-sao, like using both arms extended equally for facing, etc...we DONT do in sparring a boxer, etc...we adopt MOVEMENT and ANGLING coupled with simultaneous actions and lat sao jik chun techniques, developed in chi-sao drills.
I will try to post a clip one day.

[GrahamH]

Kevin, i have been a lurker on this forum for some time and find it incredibly funny how you constantly criticize what other people do, whether chi sao competitions, how they train/drill etc.

Yet, you have never once put up a clip of how you do things, why is that?

Referring to other peoples clips and saying "yep thats what we do" is a cop out imo.

I expect its the "im very comfortable with my VT and i dont need to justify myself to anyone". Thats fine, but i cant see how you can expect people to take your critiques without showing them what they are doing wrong...

Alan has HOURS of material to view, he has nothing to hide and is very open when asked about his method. Just for once, lets see an example of YOUR Wing Chun. Lets see how YOU do chi sao, and lets see how YOU spar, especially against a boxer. It could just be that we are all practicing incorrectly and we can learn from you.

Chris

Chris

This is forum! Many different ideas. Many different people so of course there will be conflicting views!!!!

In my own opinion what Kevin said is correct. Chi Sau is a drill for attaining certain attributes. We do not use many things in sparring that we do in Chi Sau. It is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Putting a training tool into competition totally goes against the fundamental concept of it BUT (and its a big BUT) if Alan wants to do that it is up to him in his organization.

Chi Sau competitions are a joke and what is ironic is that you seem to criticizing Kevin for doing the same thing Alan does regulary. It wasn't so many posts ago Alan was stating that somebody did not understand Wing Chun and yet I don't think Alan does.....at all.......whether he or his students could take me apart or not!!!

He is just another purveyor of a *******ized version of Wing Chun but its his and he can do what he likes with it.

Like I said many times before....you cannot gauge a persons skill by watching video footage so stop f'ing asking for it!!!:mad:

The End!

GH

Back to lurk mode for a few months :)

[Vajramusti]

Wow- another non dialogue.

I did not read the details of the rules of the chi sao gathering.

FWIW I agree with Allan Orr that chi sao interactions are important sources of wc development and getting a reading where you are-short of a fight without rules,

[anerlich]

Back to lurk mode for a few months

Make it a few years. Nobody cares.

Alan, if this doesn't work out, just hire a big hall and get everyone from the forum to turn up and argue. That's how Wing Chun works, or doesn't, these days.

Props for trying something besides keyboard warriorship. Good luck with it.

[chris bougeard]

Hi there,

The response to my post is pretty much what i expected, its funny how people say a chi sao competition is bullsh*t, yet for many practitioners chi sao is considered a very important part of their training. On that basis, surely its in your interest to test these core skills under pressure? And what better platform than in a competition?

The comment "you cannot gauge a persons skill by watching video footage" seems quite funny as Kevin and Graham seem happy to do this.

I will be competing in the 2013 competition and be happy to put my skills on the line. Im sure the keyboard "ving tsun" warriors out there will be more than happy to critique the performances we put up in the competition. Pity they wont have the guts to critique us in person...

[k gledhill]

Hi there,

The response to my post is pretty much what i expected, its funny how people say a chi sao competition is bullsh*t, yet for many practitioners chi sao is considered a very important part of their training. On that basis, surely its in your interest to test these core skills under pressure? And what better platform than in a competition?

The comment "you cannot gauge a persons skill by watching video footage" seems quite funny as Kevin and Graham seem happy to do this.

I will be competing in the 2013 competition and be happy to put my skills on the line. Im sure the keyboard "ving tsun" warriors out there will be more than happy to critique the performances we put up in the competition. Pity they wont have the guts to critique us in person...

Chi sao is an important part of "preparation" for fighting under mental pressure when we are unable to think at real fighting speeds. But you wont adopt the same starting points or arm positions prior to a fight.
We do test skills, always, but not in a competitive way, we use each other. IOW I and the partner have to adopt certain 'roles' to test each other constantly, these 'tests' are not competitive because they require that we ALLOW each other to try and hit open positions to ensure certain technical responses, along with correct distance, alignment, punch force, balance all together ?
If there are errors in fighting under no thinking pressure, we can isolate them in the chi-sao module platform, without the worry of "fighting" each other.
The fighting we do when we separate and enter to kick, punch etc...USING the attributes of the drills. If errors appear in sparring we can address them in chi-sao.
If I spar with my students, I dont get in the ring and then do chi-sao, we do the drills outside the ring, inside the ring, we move hit parry, use reflexes, non thinking responses we developed through high reps ...or thinking too much ?

Just my alternative thinking.

[sihing]

Chi sao is an important part of "preparation" for fighting under mental pressure when we are unable to think at real fighting speeds. But you wont adopt the same starting points or arm positions prior to a fight.
We do test skills, always, but not in a competitive way, we use each other. IOW I and the partner have to adopt certain 'roles' to test each other constantly, these 'tests' are not competitive because they require that we ALLOW each other to try and hit open positions to ensure certain technical responses, along with correct distance, alignment, punch force, balance all together ?
If there are errors in fighting under no thinking pressure, we can isolate them in the chi-sao module platform, without the worry of "fighting" each other.
The fighting we do when we separate and enter to kick, punch etc...USING the attributes of the drills. If errors appear in sparring we can address them in chi-sao.
If I spar with my students, I dont get in the ring and then do chi-sao, we do the drills outside the ring, inside the ring, we move hit parry, use reflexes, non thinking responses we developed through high reps ...or thinking too much ?

Just my alternative thinking.

Good post Kev:)

Development vs Application, that's all it is..You can try to fight in chi sau with another VT guy just to see certain reactions and responses that you may have, maybe to test a weekness or something in general, but you wouldn't do this lots, maybe once in a few months, but that doesn't mean the other times its practiced that chi sau is super compliant or patty cake, it gets more intense with challenges all along the way to bring it to a more realistic state, but it still is a drill, one just has to realize this and how it benefits you in a fight, then there should be no problems.

J

[Bacon]

Good post Kev:)

Development vs Application, that's all it is..You can try to fight in chi sau with another VT guy just to see certain reactions and responses that you may have, maybe to test a weekness or something in general, but you wouldn't do this lots, maybe once in a few months, but that doesn't mean the other times its practiced that chi sau is super compliant or patty cake, it gets more intense with challenges all along the way to bring it to a more realistic state, but it still is a drill, one just has to realize this and how it benefits you in a fight, then there should be no problems.

J

Exactly! It's more like having a variety of realistic Mook Yan Jongs with a variety of skills to train on than it is a competition. If you want a fight, fight. Do it as close to an actual fight as can be safely done... MMA gloves.

[sihing]

We all know how to fight, up to a point, how good it is is the question. Martial Arts are supposed to make us more effective at it. You will fight better the more you fight, but to learn by fighting is stupid, you'll injure yourself, and then be unable to fight at all.

So the training is there to help you indirectly become more effective, you just have to know the relationship. You can't spar 100% all the time, it just won't work, especially when your older. You have to supplement it with something, chi sau is one of those things that indirectly helps you, in a VT way, to fight effectively, IMO.

Oh yeah, Bruce can fight:)

J

[Alan Orr]

It's interesting to see this come back round again Alan and I'm sure you will make the best out of the event and do a decent promotion of Wing Chun. Maybe it will have a better chance of success too if it sits outside the SENI arena.

I have also noticed an increased interest from within our family too, so maybe expect a few guys to enrol!

As you already know, it's not my thing, but I for one understand why it could be very useful in the current climate to give guys an outlet to test basic skill. The only difficulty is giving every competitor an equal opportunity to prepare for your own rule sets and interactive ways, because from what I have seen before not everybody rolls how you roll sir! So the 3 roll thing throws up questions already...

Thanks Spencer. The event is part of a Seni event. Last time was a great success. The feedback from the guys that entered was excellent - they all said they learnt a great deal.


The 3 rolls are to make sure they do roll. Then after an exchange they roll again.
That is the start point of Chi Sao.

We are open to ideas. What would you add / Change?

We have the rules so far in a way which is pretty much normal Chi Sao with just hard body shots.

best Alan

[Alan Orr]

Chris, chi-sao is a drill to develop reflex like reactions to perpetuate an attack with interceptions. It involves mutual goals, not competitive winners and losers. Sparring with vt involves a lot of movement and angling. In chi-sao we start in a static position so we can each train lines of engagement, balance in contact, hand coordination to use when striking at speeds with an opponent. A lot of the things done in chi-sao, like using both arms extended equally for facing, etc...we DONT do in sparring a boxer, etc...we adopt MOVEMENT and ANGLING coupled with simultaneous actions and lat sao jik chun techniques, developed in chi-sao drills.
I will try to post a clip one day.


Chi Sao is many things. It's not limited to one styles idea.

[Alan Orr]

Wow- another non dialogue.

I did not read the details of the rules of the chi sao gathering.

FWIW I agree with Allan Orr that chi sao interactions are important sources of wc development and getting a reading where you are-short of a fight without rules,


Thank you. It is a controlled test, so it as rules which are not much more that Chi Sao with some real pressure. So I think as last time people learn what really holds up.

Controlled contact to the head. and full contact to the body. No gloves. Open hand to the head and not to the nose or eye area.

I think this is a good test of our basic in wing chun. balance, timing and controlled power.

I am sure everyone will learn and the art can develop a platform for testing basics.

[Alan Orr]

Make it a few years. Nobody cares.

Alan, if this doesn't work out, just hire a big hall and get everyone from the forum to turn up and argue. That's how Wing Chun works, or doesn't, these days.

Props for trying something besides keyboard warriorship. Good luck with it.

LOL many thanks

Yes, it's time to stop talking about the old roof top fighting days and my teacher was good so I must be BS.

What the guys did then is the same as this event. Test the basics take a few hits and learn something.

[Alan Orr]

Hi there,

The response to my post is pretty much what i expected, its funny how people say a chi sao competition is bullsh*t, yet for many practitioners chi sao is considered a very important part of their training. On that basis, surely its in your interest to test these core skills under pressure? And what better platform than in a competition?

The comment "you cannot gauge a persons skill by watching video footage" seems quite funny as Kevin and Graham seem happy to do this.

I will be competing in the 2013 competition and be happy to put my skills on the line. Im sure the keyboard "ving tsun" warriors out there will be more than happy to critique the performances we put up in the competition. Pity they wont have the guts to critique us in person...

Well done Chris and you will be a better martial artist for doing it. A teacher that leads be example like the old days!

[Alan Orr]

Chi sao is an important part of "preparation" for fighting under mental pressure when we are unable to think at real fighting speeds. But you wont adopt the same starting points or arm positions prior to a fight.
We do test skills, always, but not in a competitive way, we use each other. IOW I and the partner have to adopt certain 'roles' to test each other constantly, these 'tests' are not competitive because they require that we ALLOW each other to try and hit open positions to ensure certain technical responses, along with correct distance, alignment, punch force, balance all together ?
If there are errors in fighting under no thinking pressure, we can isolate them in the chi-sao module platform, without the worry of "fighting" each other.
The fighting we do when we separate and enter to kick, punch etc...USING the attributes of the drills. If errors appear in sparring we can address them in chi-sao.
If I spar with my students, I dont get in the ring and then do chi-sao, we do the drills outside the ring, inside the ring, we move hit parry, use reflexes, non thinking responses we developed through high reps ...or thinking too much ?

Just my alternative thinking.


Most people that only play Chi Sao can not even use the training skill under pressure. You can only test pressure under pressure.

Of course Chi Sao helps you train skills for fighitng. Chi Sao is not fighting. My point is that most the wing chun thathas poor chi sao has poor fighting / sparring skills if any. So the first point of call is to make ones chi sao pressure ready to bridge into sparring better.

A lot of the clips you see are a joke. The skill is not transferred to combat at all.

[Alan Orr]

We all know how to fight, up to a point, how good it is is the question. Martial Arts are supposed to make us more effective at it. You will fight better the more you fight, but to learn by fighting is stupid, you'll injure yourself, and then be unable to fight at all.

So the training is there to help you indirectly become more effective, you just have to know the relationship. You can't spar 100% all the time, it just won't work, especially when your older. You have to supplement it with something, chi sau is one of those things that indirectly helps you, in a VT way, to fight effectively, IMO.

Oh yeah, Bruce can fight:)

J

Of course this is all true. But you do need to know you can fight. Doing chi sao with no real test of pressure will not give you the understanding needed to deal with a real fight.

[Alan Orr]

Lets think about it

The old days the roof top fights where a test

From school to school people would challenge each other to test

I am 100% sure when a guy comes to your school and asks to roll you take it as a test

No one rolls and whats to be pushed around or hit at will right?

So stop this BS that chi sao is just traiing. It is just training when you are using it that manner and of course that is an important way to learn and develop. But with some controlled pressure and that's what we are talking about - just controlled pressure - you should be able to hold your own and learn some important lessons from it.

Otherwise Wing Chun will become just an idea. if, could, would, should.

Tai Qi has push hands - a test of basics

BJJ

Judo

and many more arts. They are all limited to rules, but that is fine as the rules are the same for all and the basics are developed.

[k gledhill]

Most people that only play Chi Sao can not even use the training skill under pressure. You can only test pressure under pressure.

Of course Chi Sao helps you train skills for fighitng. Chi Sao is not fighting. My point is that most the wing chun thathas poor chi sao has poor fighting / sparring skills if any. So the first point of call is to make ones chi sao pressure ready to bridge into sparring better.

A lot of the clips you see are a joke. The skill is not transferred to combat at all.

Sadly many arent aware of the technical/tactical ideas, leading into classic waddling pressure seeking arm games, nothing like a striking /kicking fight. Worse guys try to make a misinformed 1:1 with dirty clinching = chi-sao.....
When boxers ask me to show them VT skills I cant expect them to clinch me, or ask them to stand still and roll 3 times, etc....
But if it floats your boat, I wont try to capsize it, good luck with your endeavor.

[Alan Orr]

Sadly many arent aware of the technical/tactical ideas, leading into classic waddling pressure seeking arm games, nothing like a striking /kicking fight. Worse guys try to make a misinformed 1:1 with dirty clinching = chi-sao.....
When boxers ask me to show them VT skills I cant expect them to clinch me, or ask them to stand still and roll 3 times, etc....
But if it floats your boat, I wont try to capsize it, good luck with your endeavor.


What does a boxer have to do with it? If you spar a boxer you spar a boxer. Your timing and power and use of position and weight are all chi sao skills. But you still need to understand the range and be able to handle pressure. Why would you ask them to roll? Where talking about wing chun guys rolling with wing chun guys. Testing what we all train - chi sao.


We have 12 guys already signed up, so some people are interested in testing the basic core skills in this manner.

[k gledhill]

What does a boxer have to do with it? If you spar a boxer you spar a boxer. Your timing and power and use of position and weight are all chi sao skills. But you still need to understand the range and be able to handle pressure. Why would you ask them to roll? Where talking about wing chun guys rolling with wing chun guys. Testing what we all train - chi sao.


We have 12 guys already signed up, so some people are interested in testing the basic core skills in this manner.

Good luck, look forward to the clip.

[anerlich]

Push hands is a test of many of those things too but it too is a training tool, not a competition.

You need to read "The Art of Learning" By Josh Waitzkin, a former world push hands champion.

Guy knows what he is talking about.

[k gledhill]

You need to read "The Art of Learning" By Josh Waitzkin, a former world push hands champion.

Guy knows what he is talking about.

chi-sao isnt pushing hands, pressure seeking hands, chasing hands...Its the way of the intercepting fist/hit/punch development.

[Alan Orr]

chi-sao isnt pushing hands, pressure seeking hands, chasing hands...Its the way of the intercepting fist/hit/punch development.

Thank you Kevin until now we where trying to work out what all this rolling was about! lol

Chi Sao is not only what you tell us. That is the point of the event BWT - people come together to test ideas and basic skills under pressure - not jump on posts all the time which comments that offer no meaning.

[Buddha_Fist]

Alan,

Your threads are mostly to promote yourself, your school or the events you (help to) put together - which is perfectly fine. However, when you post these threads you should be prepared to engage in simple technical discussions. You're fine with the thread as long as everybody agrees, but go all emotional once somebody dares to disagree. A discussion is then pointless as you're not really interested in a Forum exchange anyways, just in promoting your stuff.

The Chi-Sao competition is complete non-sense as seen on the videos. Chi-Sao is a cooperative hand-coordination exercise set within an artificial scenario, thus creating as special set of circumstances (a few of which we even try to avoid when actually sparring). Chi-Sao helps in this case to work on specific skills and habits. Turning it into a wild competition where the practitioners don't work on these is pointless. It's like doing a speed ball competition where boxers go all out not just punching, but also elbowing and head-butting the ball! The DRILL becomes useless. If amping up the pressure and letting technique go out of the window is how you train Chi-Sao, God bless you...

Wanna train how to deal with pressure in a more realistic scenario? Why not stressing the bottomline and do it through sparring (where Chi-Sao conditioned skills should shine through)? Some people are afraid about the contact? So do it with protection.

It's really simple...

[Alan Orr]

Alan,

Your threads are mostly to promote yourself, your school or the events you (help to) put together - which is perfectly fine. However, when you post these threads you should be prepared to engage in simple technical discussions. You're fine with the thread as long as everybody agrees, but go all emotional once somebody dares to disagree. A discussion is then pointless as you're not really interested in a Forum exchange anyways, just in promoting your stuff.

The Chi-Sao competition is complete non-sense as seen on the videos. Chi-Sao is a cooperative hand-coordination exercise set within an artificial scenario, thus creating as special set of circumstances (a few of which we even try to avoid when actually sparring). Chi-Sao helps in this case to work on specific skills and habits. Turning it into a wild competition where the practitioners don't work on these is pointless. It's like doing a speed ball competition where boxers go all out not just punching, but also elbowing and head-butting the ball! The DRILL becomes useless. If amping up the pressure and letting technique go out of the window is how you train Chi-Sao, God bless you...

Wanna train how to deal with pressure in a more realistic scenario? Why not stressing the bottomline and do it through sparring (where Chi-Sao conditioned skills should shine through)? Some people are afraid about the contact? So do it with protection.

It's really simple...


It is simple - I am not interested in a discussion. If I was I would have asked. I am promoting an event and hope people will stop talking and giving opinions and start testing and training in a way that shares via actions.

Forums are full of people who never use real names. So I don't even know who I am talking to, so why would their opinion mean anything to me? I have an excellent teacher - Robert Chu, I have excellent training partners and students. These are the people I listen too not names people on the internet.

Boxers use speed balls to train a skill - timing. That's what they use in the ring. You point doesn't relate to anything.

Chi Sao promotes a deeper skill that just one thing. The basics of balance and structure stance are key to wing chun as well as angles and positions. If that only works under slow partner training then it is nothing to do with fighting. It must also work with some pressure.

That is what the event is for. Very simple.

[Buddha_Fist]

My point was beyond you. Useless to explain simple things to you.

Emil

[Alan Orr]

My point was beyond you. Useless to explain simple things to you.

Emil

Yes your point is way beyond me.

[Buddha_Fist]

Cool, we agree. ;)

[Sihing73]

Guys,

Fine, agree to disagree.
Now on to actual discussing the topic at hand.
If you have nothing to contribute then feel to refrain from commenting. ;)

[Alan Orr]

Guys,

Fine, agree to disagree.
Now on to actual discussing the topic at hand.
If you have nothing to contribute then feel to refrain from commenting. ;)


That has always been my point. I am telling people about an event.

The time to debate is at the event when you fight in it. The forum post is asking people to enter and be part of it.

[k gledhill]

Thank you Kevin until now we where trying to work out what all this rolling was about! lol

Chi Sao is not only what you tell us. That is the point of the event BWT - people come together to test ideas and basic skills under pressure - not jump on posts all the time which comments that offer no meaning.

My pleasure. Many struggle with the abstract nature of Ving Tsun.

[Alan Orr]

My pleasure. Many struggle with the abstract nature of Ving Tsun.

Well its good to see as always you have something about nothing too post whenever I start a thread. Even when it was just an information post as well! lol

[Alan Orr]

If you are interested in fighting in the event then please contact me.

Or if you would like to help out we need my officials from different schools as well.

best Alan

[jesper]

Allan when you start doing competitions in drills like chi sao or skipping ropes for that matter. Arent there an inherent danger in people starting to gear there training towards a specific event instead of keeping it "real" ?

Ah well I hope it will be succesfull, so best of luck to those that wish to participate.

[Alan Orr]

Allan when you start doing competitions in drills like chi sao or skipping ropes for that matter. Arent there an inherent danger in people starting to gear there training towards a specific event instead of keeping it "real" ?

Ah well I hope it will be succesfull, so best of luck to those that wish to participate.

The pressure of dealing with competitions is very 'real' so it does add to a persons skill set. Chi Sao which has to deal with pressure makes it more alive. So I think it can only be a good thing.

Many thanks

[anerlich]

Arent there an inherent danger in people starting to gear there training towards a specific event instead of keeping it "real" ?


Among the chief critics of Alan's proposal are those who post clips of people doing what amounts to pretty much the same thing in a kwoon as evidence of how "real" and effective their methods are.

If rule sets are the main thrust of your training this might be so. It can be true to a significant degree with sport Jiu Jitsu.

I'd still bet on the guy who trains all out for a competition over people who never have.

[k gledhill]

Among the chief critics of Alan's proposal are those who post clips of people doing what amounts to pretty much the same thing in a kwoon as evidence of how "real" and effective their methods are.

If rule sets are the main thrust of your training this might be so. It can be true to a significant degree with sport Jiu Jitsu.

I'd still bet on the guy who trains all out for a competition over people who never have.


Yawn, anerlichs opinion.

[GlennR]

Yawn, anerlichs opinion.

Wake up Kev and smell the roses ;)

[k gledhill]

Wake up Kev and smell the roses ;)

Okay, nope, didnt change my understanding.

[wingchunIan]

As someone who views chi sao as a learning exercise distinct from sparring and pressure testing, I'd prefer that everyone just got together and rolled so that we share knowledge. The only two people that are important in chi sao are the individuals involved, if they are honest with themselves and can put ego to one side they can both learn. It is only my opinion but from my experience introducing competition becomes more about trying to prove things to third party onlookers and less about mutual learning.
Having said that. I wish you all the best Alan and hope that the event is a huge success, that everyone taking part enjoys themselves.

[Alan Orr]

As someone who views chi sao as a learning exercise distinct from sparring and pressure testing, I'd prefer that everyone just got together and rolled so that we share knowledge. The only two people that are important in chi sao are the individuals involved, if they are honest with themselves and can put ego to one side they can both learn. It is only my opinion but from my experience introducing competition becomes more about trying to prove things to third party onlookers and less about mutual learning.
Having said that. I wish you all the best Alan and hope that the event is a huge success, that everyone taking part enjoys themselves.

Yes Chi Sao is about learning. Again as I keep saying Chi Sao can be used for learning in many ways. The way you are talking about is how beginners or less skilled people will need to train. Also the way you train to work things out as in a drill format. But that alone will not make your bridge training work when you need it under pressure. The whole point of sparring is working a range and then once you bridge taking control of the close range (wing chun's best range) but from what I have seen that is very weak in many styles of wing chun. So the comp is to push people to pressure test in that range a but more.

[Alan Orr]

Among the chief critics of Alan's proposal are those who post clips of people doing what amounts to pretty much the same thing in a kwoon as evidence of how "real" and effective their methods are.

If rule sets are the main thrust of your training this might be so. It can be true to a significant degree with sport Jiu Jitsu.

I'd still bet on the guy who trains all out for a competition over people who never have.

Good points.

[k gledhill]

BJJ competition...

[Alan Orr]

BJJ competition...


And you point is what? A quote from a great world champion - Competition fighter.

Yes we all know all competition limits street application of the skills you have. But they are still do it! As it does help and does improve training and overall skills.

So too quote a champion fighter saying that street fights required or use more skills or different skills means what? We all know this and have agreed this. They still do it as it helps the core skills
You just made my point. lol

[chris bougeard]

Im sick of hearing this analogy of chi sao to wing chun is what a skipping rope is to boxing. What utter nonsense.

Chi sao is a vast learning framework where many, many attributes can be gained and sharpened which ultimately will help you in fighting.

The comparison is so flawed its hilarious.

Co-operative chi sao, sure when you are learning a new drill or a beginner is learning the ropes. Once you have a good basic skillset you should pressure test often so you are practicing something that WILL help you in fighting.

If there is no competition when you are doing this everything works, all the nonsensical complex combinations etc. But when pressure is applied all this stuff falls apart and if you dont have a core of pressure tested tools to rely on your chi sao becomes worthless. I have never understood people who say there should be no competition in chi sao. The bjj comparisons seem to be rife around here, in bjj you learn a new technique, drill it to distraction then apply it real time in rolling. Are we saying here that real time application of what you practice in chi sao is incorrect???

[Alan Orr]

Im sick of hearing this analogy of chi sao to wing chun is what a skipping rope is to boxing. What utter nonsense.

Chi sao is a vast learning framework where many, many attributes can be gained and sharpened which ultimately will help you in fighting.

The comparison is so flawed its hilarious.

Co-operative chi sao, sure when you are learning a new drill or a beginner is learning the ropes. Once you have a good basic skillset you should pressure test often so you are practicing something that WILL help you in fighting.

If there is no competition when you are doing this everything works, all the nonsensical complex combinations etc. But when pressure is applied all this stuff falls apart and if you dont have a core of pressure tested tools to rely on your chi sao becomes worthless. I have never understood people who say there should be no competition in chi sao. The bjj comparisons seem to be rife around here, in bjj you learn a new technique, drill it to distraction then apply it real time in rolling. Are we saying here that real time application of what you practice in chi sao is incorrect???

Excellent post Chris!

[chris bougeard]

Im just talking about what ive learnt from my kung fu brothers big guy!

[Bacon]

Im sick of hearing this analogy of chi sao to wing chun is what a skipping rope is to boxing. What utter nonsense.

Chi sao is a vast learning framework where many, many attributes can be gained and sharpened which ultimately will help you in fighting.

The comparison is so flawed its hilarious.

Co-operative chi sao, sure when you are learning a new drill or a beginner is learning the ropes. Once you have a good basic skillset you should pressure test often so you are practicing something that WILL help you in fighting.

If there is no competition when you are doing this everything works, all the nonsensical complex combinations etc. But when pressure is applied all this stuff falls apart and if you dont have a core of pressure tested tools to rely on your chi sao becomes worthless. I have never understood people who say there should be no competition in chi sao. The bjj comparisons seem to be rife around here, in bjj you learn a new technique, drill it to distraction then apply it real time in rolling. Are we saying here that real time application of what you practice in chi sao is incorrect???

I'm saying that chi sao is a component of training for sparring. Having a lap sao or pak sao competition is equally pointless. Sparring makes use of all three in integration and is the best test of abilities in a resistant environment.

There are things. People can do to score in chi sao competitions, especially badly set up ones, which in sparring or actual fighting will put you in a position to get your butt kicked. You need continuous fighting.

[chris bougeard]

"There are things. People can do to score in chi sao competitions, especially badly set up ones, which in sparring or actual fighting will put you in a position to get your butt kicked. You need continuous fighting"

If you train chi sao correctly this will not be the case at all.

We spar on a regular basis with plenty of pressure and none of my chi sao "bad habits" get me hurt :rolleyes:

This is the point of what we are saying Bacon, if you just do compliant chi sao then spar hard it all goes tits up.

I know, i used to train like this, fast hands and lots of flashy techniques and no pressure testing. Whats worse is the number of people who say chi sao is the link between forms and fighting, how does that work if you dont have any pressure when doing chi sao. Its at this point people normally say, "aha dont worry, your chi sao skills will kick in automatically when you need them, dont do competitive chi sao because chi sao just trains sensitivity and too much competition destroys the point of the drill". Its like leading sheep to slaughter...

[LoneTiger108]

I'm reading alot of opinions on here about something that has already happened before so it makes no sense to keep saying why these sorts of competitions are useles, or why they are against the Wing Chun ethos etc

This competition will happen regardless, just as it did before at SENi in London and it did have a good response from the people who competed so why not check out some clips and see how these things can be improved and have a decent purpose??

An example 'fight'
http://youtu.be/uGiAoMQSRtQ

Opinions from competitors
http://youtu.be/PaHpjNMb3sw

FWIW I was not too impressed with the format and rules but years have passed and I am hopeful that Alan has made some adjustments under advice from other very experienced Wing Chun practitioners. If not, then it may turn out to be the same type of event which IMHO is a very dangerous game for those who are not prepared to get hit!! Bare knuckle rabbit punch rib shots seemed to be the name of the game, and they worked well for some :o

Personally if I sat down with the eldest practitioners in the country and whacked out a plan for this type of competition it would be quite different, but that's just me...

[chris bougeard]

Thats intriguing, what would you change?

Chris

[k gledhill]

An example 'fight' (fight ?)
http://youtu.be/uGiAoMQSRtQ

Nuff said....it is going straight into clinching & knees, a lot of this can be dealt with by having a good punch to the head (!) what, I cant do that ? the most important thing in VT .....along with, mobility, a straight kick, and angling ...all the comments on the clip simply agree.

We ( I ) dont fight like this in VT. If I feel a guy wants to 'target practice' I just step away from chi-sao and start fighting, moving, etc...its not easy hitting a moving target and a WHOLE NEW skill comes out :D

Alan the R Gracie post was simply to highlight the fact that ground work in competitions or isolating it to just one aspect is losing sight of the WHOLE PICTURE iow a fight from ranges that arent in contact with grappling. VT aint grappling.

[LoneTiger108]

Thats intriguing, what would you change?

Chris

Not the place to discuss it to be honest as Alan already has his plan and I am sure this will develop as time goes on.


Nuff said....it is going straight into clinching & knees, a lot of this can be dealt with by having a good punch to the head (!) what, I cant do that ? the most important thing in VT .....along with, mobility, a straight kick, and angling ...all the comments on the clip simply agree.

Yep that is how this guy moved but not how everyone competed to be fair. You are right too about the 'simplest' option to dissolve such attacks but aint this what competition is for?? Learning rules so as to adjust your skills set to be able to operate at maximum efficiency within the rules??

So, instead of the simple punch to the face what else can you do 'legally'? The angling and legwork are a great example, but people couldn't do this with Aaron coz he is a beast when he moves forward lol! And the fear and pressure of his onslaughts do not give you the time (as in reality actually) unless you are drilled and extremely accurate. Very few have that level skill when they enter comps so this is where I would sit back and re-organize. Adjust rules to compensate and make the matches fairer in some way.

I also do not like the idea of bare knuckle punching to the ribs like that because Wing Chun is not Kateda or Kyokushin, just as the neck pull and muay thai knees shown are not (what I would call) good displays of Wing Chun either.

BUT there is room for improvement and as this is the most I have written here for months maybe I will shut up now and leave the competitions to the experts... :)

[chris bougeard]

"VT aint grappling"

So why did you use a grappling related quote on a wing chun forum to back up your arguments?

[Bacon]

"There are things. People can do to score in chi sao competitions, especially badly set up ones, which in sparring or actual fighting will put you in a position to get your butt kicked. You need continuous fighting"

If you train chi sao correctly this will not be the case at all.

We spar on a regular basis with plenty of pressure and none of my chi sao "bad habits" get me hurt :rolleyes:

This is the point of what we are saying Bacon, if you just do compliant chi sao then spar hard it all goes tits up.

I know, i used to train like this, fast hands and lots of flashy techniques and no pressure testing. Whats worse is the number of people who say chi sao is the link between forms and fighting, how does that work if you dont have any pressure when doing chi sao. Its at this point people normally say, "aha dont worry, your chi sao skills will kick in automatically when you need them, dont do competitive chi sao because chi sao just trains sensitivity and too much competition destroys the point of the drill". Its like leading sheep to slaughter...

I didn't say no pressure. I train chi sao under pressure. It's not useful otherwise. But it's still a training tool. If people want to compete they should fight. That is the point of our training tools.

[chris bougeard]

Hi,

Aaron is my kung fu brother, so i can attest to his power.

What i think is also important to underline here is the fact that his "technical" wing chun is excellent also. A lot of people seem to think that all his skill amount to just being strong, well sure he is strong but he also has excellent structure and rooting skills. Thats why he was able to overwhelm most of the guys he went up against. Clinching/neck grabbing/hitting hard to the body not good wing chun??? Im happy to say if thats the case then my wing chun is lousy...

[chris bougeard]

didn't say no pressure. I train chi sao under pressure. It's not useful otherwise. But it's still a training tool. If people want to compete they should fight. That is the point of our training tools.

Thanks for educating me, i didnt know that.

[k gledhill]

Not the place to discuss it to be honest as Alan already has his plan and I am sure this will develop as time goes on.



Yep that is how this guy moved but not how everyone competed to be fair. You are right too about the 'simplest' option to dissolve such attacks but aint this what competition is for?? Learning rules so as to adjust your skills set to be able to operate at maximum efficiency within the rules??

So, instead of the simple punch to the face what else can you do 'legally'? The angling and legwork are a great example, but people couldn't do this with Aaron coz he is a beast when he moves forward lol! And the fear and pressure of his onslaughts do not give you the time (as in reality actually) unless you are drilled and extremely accurate. Very few have that level skill when they enter comps so this is where I would sit back and re-organize. Adjust rules to compensate and make the matches fairer in some way.

I also do not like the idea of bare knuckle punching to the ribs like that because Wing Chun is not Kateda or Kyokushin, just as the neck pull and muay thai knees shown are not (what I would call) good displays of Wing Chun either.

BUT there is room for improvement and as this is the most I have written here for months maybe I will shut up now and leave the competitions to the experts... :)


..." And the fear and pressure of his onslaughts do not give you the time (as in reality actually) unless you are drilled and extremely accurate. Very few have that level skill when they enter comps so this is where I would sit back and re-organize. Adjust rules to compensate and make the matches fairer in some way."....

From fighting distances, this is a real test of skills for both combatants. controlling momentum of attacks, not committing errors under pressure...
There IS NO TIME in these situations to think, what angle, what hand and what foot, etc...exactly my point. Chi-sao is the time to repeat things with a compliant mutually focused partner.
Sparring you step back and attack counter with striking, kicking, entry...I never adopt a basic stance , stop moving and put two arms out expecting the guy to 'touch hands' :D

[k gledhill]

"VT aint grappling"

So why did you use a grappling related quote on a wing chun forum to back up your arguments?

Because THEY grapple, but only use 20% in competitions doing ground work, BUT they should not exclude,forget, the other 80% STAND UP moving, to keep it real. IOW isolating one aspect is not seeing the whole picture.
If you isolate chi-sao drills you are not allowing the true picture of VT fighting to be addressed. And VT , the last time I looked, was a striking system, with kicks, movement and angling, that doesnt start in a 2 handed rolling exchange.

[Buddha_Fist]

Excellent post Chris!

Of course it is! He's your student repeating your views! ;)

[chris bougeard]

"VT , the last time I looked, was a striking system, with kicks, movement and angling, that doesnt start in a 2 handed rolling exchange."

Thanks for that Kevin, i never realised that you could do all those things using wing chun.

Do you really think that i endorse/teach the idea that fights start from this position. do you think you are the only person who fights outside of the chi sao paradigm??

We work from non contact to contact to clinch to ground and back again as our regular training. Chi sao is only part (an important part nonetheless) of what we do.

[LoneTiger108]

From fighting distances, this is a real test of skills for both combatants. controlling momentum of attacks, not committing errors under pressure...
There IS NO TIME in these situations to think, what angle, what hand and what foot, etc...exactly my point.

I think you will find that even within Alans rule set they only allow a minimal time for this 'separation' and that's why it get's messy and heated (I think it's 5secs) and it is this separation that you would prefer in a competition? In which case go enter a Sanda/Sanshou comp that is already sanctioned ;)



Hi,

Aaron is my kung fu brother, so i can attest to his power.

What i think is also important to underline here is the fact that his "technical" wing chun is excellent also. A lot of people seem to think that all his skill amount to just being strong, well sure he is strong but he also has excellent structure and rooting skills. Thats why he was able to overwhelm most of the guys he went up against. Clinching/neck grabbing/hitting hard to the body not good wing chun??? Im happy to say if thats the case then my wing chun is lousy...

His technical skill may be great (now) but in the clip here he is basically overpowering the guy and most, if not all, his successful attacks/punches/knees were launched from a distance 'outside of the roll' so it suggests he is a great fighter in such circumstances. This type of sparring can be used to weaken the opponent, wear them down, but ultimately this is not an example of excellent chisau knowledge at all IMHO and not what we should be aiming to excel at in a 'Chisau' Competition.

As I've said, if you want to spar like that enter a decent Sanda competition.

And before you go putting words like 'lousy' into my mouth I would consider this: I am in support of decent events that promote decent Wing Chun and I have a high standard of expectation in the UK as some of our Sifus and teachers have been in the system now for over 40 years. At the time of the comp Aaron was probably Alans No.1 competitor and it showed. He was outstanding. But I will say that his Wing Chun skill was simply not expressed within a neat, clean rotation I would have expected to see.

And yes, neck grabs, heavy body shots etc are good Wing Chun when excecuted from the roll when you are in full control of distance/timing etc, but when they are launched to make distance or close the gap/cover mistakes it is no different than me running into you caveman stylie with a million air strikes before I am in the right distance! That is not decent Wing Chun Chisau. But my opinion only... don't get on the defensive too soon ;)

[Alan Orr]

Of course it is! He's your student repeating your views! ;)

I would say the same to anyone that post views that I agree with.

Your point is what?

[Alan Orr]

I'm reading alot of opinions on here about something that has already happened before so it makes no sense to keep saying why these sorts of competitions are useles, or why they are against the Wing Chun ethos etc

This competition will happen regardless, just as it did before at SENi in London and it did have a good response from the people who competed so why not check out some clips and see how these things can be improved and have a decent purpose??

An example 'fight'
http://youtu.be/uGiAoMQSRtQ

Opinions from competitors
http://youtu.be/PaHpjNMb3sw

FWIW I was not too impressed with the format and rules but years have passed and I am hopeful that Alan has made some adjustments under advice from other very experienced Wing Chun practitioners. If not, then it may turn out to be the same type of event which IMHO is a very dangerous game for those who are not prepared to get hit!! Bare knuckle rabbit punch rib shots seemed to be the name of the game, and they worked well for some :o

Personally if I sat down with the eldest practitioners in the country and whacked out a plan for this type of competition it would be quite different, but that's just me...

This is a clip of Aaron vs Simon one of my other students. Quite different as they both have structure - therefore Aaron can't control Simon the way he did his last opponent. So the problem is not wing chun - its who is doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDEPNCo8AbU

Please do post idea on rules. That will help and be discussed and may be used.

[Alan Orr]

An example 'fight' (fight ?)
http://youtu.be/uGiAoMQSRtQ

Nuff said....it is going straight into clinching & knees, a lot of this can be dealt with by having a good punch to the head (!) what, I cant do that ? the most important thing in VT .....along with, mobility, a straight kick, and angling ...all the comments on the clip simply agree.

We ( I ) dont fight like this in VT. If I feel a guy wants to 'target practice' I just step away from chi-sao and start fighting, moving, etc...its not easy hitting a moving target and a WHOLE NEW skill comes out :D

Alan the R Gracie post was simply to highlight the fact that ground work in competitions or isolating it to just one aspect is losing sight of the WHOLE PICTURE iow a fight from ranges that arent in contact with grappling. VT aint grappling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDEPNCo8AbU

Again both our my students and both have the skill to control stance and not be ragged again.

RE your gracie post - we DO know its not the whole picture! I keep saying this! It is a part of training that can help in many ways as Chris as already talked about. If it was no use then BJJ would not have so many people training and doing comps!

[Alan Orr]

Not the place to discuss it to be honest as Alan already has his plan and I am sure this will develop as time goes on.



Yep that is how this guy moved but not how everyone competed to be fair. You are right too about the 'simplest' option to dissolve such attacks but aint this what competition is for?? Learning rules so as to adjust your skills set to be able to operate at maximum efficiency within the rules??

So, instead of the simple punch to the face what else can you do 'legally'? The angling and legwork are a great example, but people couldn't do this with Aaron coz he is a beast when he moves forward lol! And the fear and pressure of his onslaughts do not give you the time (as in reality actually) unless you are drilled and extremely accurate. Very few have that level skill when they enter comps so this is where I would sit back and re-organize. Adjust rules to compensate and make the matches fairer in some way.

I also do not like the idea of bare knuckle punching to the ribs like that because Wing Chun is not Kateda or Kyokushin, just as the neck pull and muay thai knees shown are not (what I would call) good displays of Wing Chun either.

BUT there is room for improvement and as this is the most I have written here for months maybe I will shut up now and leave the competitions to the experts... :)


The point is that good chi sao skill will stop your opponent clinching you and controlling you. Angling off in a real fight without control doesn't work well so it shows in chi sao when the pressure is on. So people learnt that you must have stance and position control before you move or take your opponents balance before you attack.

RE Adjust rules to compensate and make the matches fairer in some way.

Adjust in what way? they are the same rules for everyone? That's what makes it fair right?

[Alan Orr]

I'm saying that chi sao is a component of training for sparring. Having a lap sao or pak sao competition is equally pointless. Sparring makes use of all three in integration and is the best test of abilities in a resistant environment.

There are things. People can do to score in chi sao competitions, especially badly set up ones, which in sparring or actual fighting will put you in a position to get your butt kicked. You need continuous fighting.


People don't get it. If you want to fight with more tools then Boxing, K1 or MMA is open to do that and lots of my guys do. But with a Chi Sao event a lot more of the guys would don't have grappling skills or guys that would not want to do K1 etc feel that they can get a test of some pressure in a comp that they feel suits the way they train and level of skill. I have guys that would not do MMA or K1 but would like to do the Chi Sao comp as it in the area of skill that they like to work with. So it is to get more wing chun people testing some controlled pressure.

Just as some guys will do BJJ comps but never MMA.

[Buddha_Fist]

I would say the same to anyone that post views that I agree with.

Your point is what?

You're funny! :D

[Wayfaring]

Looks like a good bit of fun for some of the guys. They get to compete, they don't have to get banged up as much as from an amateur MMA or K1 rules kickboxing smoker fight.

I guess everyone could argue all day over what rules to allow for a chi sau competition. I'm sure the Seni rules are fine, and other rule sets may work too.
The idea I suppose is just to get some of the spectators competing rather than walking around an event all day.

Looking at the clips and the Iron Wolves, they look to incorporate a few other disciplines into their chi sau. I see knees and collar ties from MT as well the plum spin off a collar tie. I see shovel punches / hook punches to the body with and without a collar tie. I see MT knees / kicks. I see a little bit of wrestling. And I see forward pressure and base.

I like these things. If you are going to compete in any way against other styles with a close-quarter striking and control system like wing chun, you're going to need to learn to deal with these things. So I have no problem with the ruleset. If you don't rule out punching the face with force, people won't sign up, and there's no reason to do that instead of MMA.

I see some tricks with the rulesets being in play too. Baum likes to work that body shovel hook off an opposite hand collar tie - the pulling motion has the near hand dealing with the collar tie as opposed to gum the shovel punch. I don't think he'd be applying that as liberally with open strikes to the face. But it's all in good fun. Any competitor with any ruleset that is strategic will try and figure out exploiting rules to their advantage. It's the nature of the game. Nothing wrong with that. To me from what I've seen the pro fighters do pretty well with other rule restricted competitions - both striking and grappling.

So yeah, looks like a fun time, promotes wing chun, and gets some people competing who wouldn't otherwise. I'd say thanks Alan for organizing it and putting it on. It helps the art.

[Alan Orr]

Looks like a good bit of fun for some of the guys. They get to compete, they don't have to get banged up as much as from an amateur MMA or K1 rules kickboxing smoker fight.

I guess everyone could argue all day over what rules to allow for a chi sau competition. I'm sure the Seni rules are fine, and other rule sets may work too.
The idea I suppose is just to get some of the spectators competing rather than walking around an event all day.

Looking at the clips and the Iron Wolves, they look to incorporate a few other disciplines into their chi sau. I see knees and collar ties from MT as well the plum spin off a collar tie. I see shovel punches / hook punches to the body with and without a collar tie. I see MT knees / kicks. I see a little bit of wrestling. And I see forward pressure and base.

I like these things. If you are going to compete in any way against other styles with a close-quarter striking and control system like wing chun, you're going to need to learn to deal with these things. So I have no problem with the ruleset. If you don't rule out punching the face with force, people won't sign up, and there's no reason to do that instead of MMA.

I see some tricks with the rulesets being in play too. Baum likes to work that body shovel hook off an opposite hand collar tie - the pulling motion has the near hand dealing with the collar tie as opposed to gum the shovel punch. I don't think he'd be applying that as liberally with open strikes to the face. But it's all in good fun. Any competitor with any ruleset that is strategic will try and figure out exploiting rules to their advantage. It's the nature of the game. Nothing wrong with that. To me from what I've seen the pro fighters do pretty well with other rule restricted competitions - both striking and grappling.

So yeah, looks like a fun time, promotes wing chun, and gets some people competing who wouldn't otherwise. I'd say thanks Alan for organizing it and putting it on. It helps the art.

Thank you, nice constructive post.

Just to answer on A Baum - We have never train Thai at all. All our movements are in our normal wing chun skill sets. The neck control is in the start of the Dummy. The punches are normal as we have many punches, spring punch, bounce punch, thrusting punch and many more. We train as a Chinese boxing system so you see that in our strikes.

In terms of wrestling yes we do train wrestling but this was not in wrestling range. Wrestling range is out or in - body to body. Chi Sao is range between. That is the what makes Wing Chun different it has a range that most people don't train in so much, in the way we do in wing chun. Thai does work in this range but the application is quite different as we have Chi Sao which gives us different ways to use it.

Again nice post.

[anerlich]

Okay, nope, didnt change my understanding.

I don't think you have much of an understanding.

Yawn ... Kev's opinion.

[k gledhill]

I don't think you have much of an understanding.

Yawn ... Kev's opinion.

chi-sao competition = oxymoron

[Alan Orr]

chi-sao competition = oxymoron

Yes you keep on saying this Kev as if it means something.

Maybe you mean - closed mind = moron

[k gledhill]

Yes you keep avoiding the point or addressing the fact you have made a competition out of a drill...not closed minded, its keeping focus on the goal, not getting lost in the abstract process. For the last time, regardless if it sinks in or not.

Chi-sao is not the way we fight its a mutual exchange of force between 2 VT fighters taking time out from sparring and each helping the other improve their abilities through high reps at speed and increasing pressure from each partner. We add random entry attacks and counters from each to create intuitive responses involving movement relative to certain actions from an opponent....all from no pre contact.
iow we aren't seeking to recreate chi-sao with the opponent in a clinch.

[Alan Orr]

Yes you keep avoiding the point or addressing the fact you have made a competition out of a drill...not closed minded, its keeping focus on the goal, not getting lost in the abstract process. For the last time, regardless if it sinks in or not.

Chi-sao is not the way we fight its a mutual exchange of force between 2 VT fighters taking time out from sparring and each helping the other improve their abilities through high reps at speed and increasing pressure from each partner. We add random entry attacks and counters from each to create intuitive responses involving movement relative to certain actions from an opponent....all from no pre contact.
iow we aren't seeking to recreate chi-sao with the opponent in a clinch.


Avoiding the point? What point? that you do not agree in Chi Sao comps? I got that. I think we all got that, more that a few times.

The answer has been the same - That is your point of view.

You keep talking about what chi sao and what it is not. But that is to you. I and others see Chi Sao in a deeper way than that. So 'we' can move forward and pressure test Chi Sao has well as play it and as well as drill it.

Why do you always come onto my threads and tell me what is and is not wing chun? I have a different view of Wing Chun, a different system of Wing Chun, a different training approach to Wing Chun. I am not interested if what you think Chi Sao - I know what method you do. If I was interested I would say. You don't need to follow me around. I have a system tested now my guys now - as we are in the now.

This thread is an information post about the event. Also if people who are interested and want to talk about the event i.e fighting in it, helping with it or questions or ideas on rules to be in it - then welcome.

If you are not interested in the event then do not waste my time and the time of others.

[GlennR]

Yes you keep avoiding the point or addressing the fact you have made a competition out of a drill...not closed minded, its keeping focus on the goal, not getting lost in the abstract process. For the last time, regardless if it sinks in or not.

Chi-sao is not the way we fight its a mutual exchange of force between 2 VT fighters taking time out from sparring and each helping the other improve their abilities through high reps at speed and increasing pressure from each partner. We add random entry attacks and counters from each to create intuitive responses involving movement relative to certain actions from an opponent....all from no pre contact.
iow we aren't seeking to recreate chi-sao with the opponent in a clinch.

So what do you do in a clinch and how do you train it?

[k gledhill]

Avoiding the point? What point? that you do not agree in Chi Sao comps? I got that. I think we all got that, more that a few times.

The answer has been the same - That is your point of view.

You keep talking about what chi sao and what it is not. But that is to you. I and others see Chi Sao in a deeper way than that. So 'we' can move forward and pressure test Chi Sao has well as play it and as well as drill it.

Why do you always come onto my threads and tell me what is and is not wing chun? I have a different view of Wing Chun, a different system of Wing Chun, a different training approach to Wing Chun. I am not interested if what you think Chi Sao - I know what method you do. If I was interested I would say. You don't need to follow me around. I have a system tested now my guys now - as we are in the now.

This thread is an information post about the event. Also if people who are interested and want to talk about the event i.e fighting in it, helping with it or questions or ideas on rules to be in it - then welcome.

If you are not interested in the event then do not waste my time and the time of others.

Cool, well at least you agree its nothing like the Ving Tsun thinking I have.

[Alan Orr]

Cool, well at least you agree its nothing like the Ving Tsun thinking I have.

I think that has been said many times on every thread I have ever started!

I hope now I will not have to keep repeating myself.

[Wayfaring]

Just to answer on A Baum - We have never train Thai at all. All our movements are in our normal wing chun skill sets. The neck control is in the start of the Dummy. The punches are normal as we have many punches, spring punch, bounce punch, thrusting punch and many more. We train as a Chinese boxing system so you see that in our strikes.


So I think this goes to comment on some of the other guys who don't think this is wing chun, or criticize it. My view is that if you are incorporating weapons in to your wc training like the knees and clinch skills along with base and forward pressure, that is great. The key is what is working utilizing those wc principles. If I can view a limited striking contest like a chi sau drill and see similar concepts to what I see in skilled MT fighters driven from wc concepts like centerline and forward intent, then I like that. I think it is a proper adaptation of wc for MMA fighting. I think it opens up tons of options as to where you can compete. Sure there's room for people teaching traditionally but this alternative method of teaching is a great option too. And the realistic pressure involved I like too, and think it is good for both health and self defense. The key is to all these competitions, like chi sau and MMA fights, the way I look at it is you always have armies in times of peace keeping themselves sharp by sporting competitions.



In terms of wrestling yes we do train wrestling but this was not in wrestling range. Wrestling range is out or in - body to body. Chi Sao is range between. That is the what makes Wing Chun different it has a range that most people don't train in so much, in the way we do in wing chun. Thai does work in this range but the application is quite different as we have Chi Sao which gives us different ways to use it.


This is my little pet area to work with and focus on. I think there is a lot more available to chain into standing grappling from chi sau than most people think or train. I see feeds into arm drags, slide-bys, leg attack takedowns and more and use them from contact on the bridge. I think the range is much more transitional than people want it to be live. For me if I can bridge to strike or bridge to take down where I end up in a better position like on top that's what I will choose. That's my little niche.

But I like what you guys are doing. Your bridge work, counters and skills seem to be able to handle the MT background guys in MMA.

[anerlich]

chi-sao competition = oxymoron

kgledhill = moron

(Someone had to do it)

Seriously, Kev, we know your opinion on this. We just disagree with you. Get over it.

No one is forcing you to enter this comp.

It's like arguing with Terence about theoreticians and real fighters, except more repetitive and less interesting. I though that impossible, I was wrong.

[Ozzy Dave]

chi-sao competition = oxymoron

Yeah, this is correct but to be fair its gor sao not chi sao and gor sao is by its nature a competition so no harm making it sporting in my opinion.

Competition in the sporting sense is all about inducing pressure while maintaining safety.

The benefit to all this is that it’s a mutually defined starting point in a difficult range to gain control of the opponent, and it provides a pressured environment to work responses, including clinching defences for the pure VT man.

Props to Alan for developing the concept, maybe once you’re in NZ we'll see more of this in Oz.

Cheers,

Dave

[k gledhill]

kgledhill = moron

(Someone had to do it)

Seriously, Kev, we know your opinion on this. We just disagree with you. Get over it.

No one is forcing you to enter this comp.

It's like arguing with Terence about theoreticians and real fighters, except more repetitive and less interesting. I though that impossible, I was wrong.

Anerlich :D read my mind, you dont have to try too hard...;) more disagree with you.

[Alan Orr]

So I think this goes to comment on some of the other guys who don't think this is wing chun, or criticize it. My view is that if you are incorporating weapons in to your wc training like the knees and clinch skills along with base and forward pressure, that is great. The key is what is working utilizing those wc principles. If I can view a limited striking contest like a chi sau drill and see similar concepts to what I see in skilled MT fighters driven from wc concepts like centerline and forward intent, then I like that. I think it is a proper adaptation of wc for MMA fighting. I think it opens up tons of options as to where you can compete. Sure there's room for people teaching traditionally but this alternative method of teaching is a great option too. And the realistic pressure involved I like too, and think it is good for both health and self defense. The key is to all these competitions, like chi sau and MMA fights, the way I look at it is you always have armies in times of peace keeping themselves sharp by sporting competitions.



This is my little pet area to work with and focus on. I think there is a lot more available to chain into standing grappling from chi sau than most people think or train. I see feeds into arm drags, slide-bys, leg attack takedowns and more and use them from contact on the bridge. I think the range is much more transitional than people want it to be live. For me if I can bridge to strike or bridge to take down where I end up in a better position like on top that's what I will choose. That's my little niche.

But I like what you guys are doing. Your bridge work, counters and skills seem to be able to handle the MT background guys in MMA.


Yes agree. Nice post. Good to see people do understand where the comp will help develop the principles in wing chun into working concepts.

[Alan Orr]

Yeah, this is correct but to be fair its gor sao not chi sao and gor sao is by its nature a competition so no harm making it sporting in my opinion.

Competition in the sporting sense is all about inducing pressure while maintaining safety.

The benefit to all this is that it’s a mutually defined starting point in a difficult range to gain control of the opponent, and it provides a pressured environment to work responses, including clinching defences for the pure VT man.

Props to Alan for developing the concept, maybe once you’re in NZ we'll see more of this in Oz.

Cheers,

Dave


It is a Chi Sao event as fighters must roll. They will break into Gro Sao at some point but must go back to rolling.

But good point. Right now it is 10 seconds before they must roll again. So maybe we should make that 5 seconds so they roll more.

Yes Oz I am coming! I have 3 schools interesting in training already in Oz. Can't wait! So the Comp will be in Oz as some point a well.

[Bacon]

You know Alan, it's okay to admit that you're wrong.

[Alan Orr]

You know Alan, it's okay to admit that you're wrong.

Wrong about what? Why do people o forum's always have something to say about nothing?

The rules worked well last time. This time we are asking people for input to see if it can be even better. There is no wrong. We only look to develop. Someone has made a point which I think could add value so we will make a change. It is funny that people hang on to stuff so much.

[jesper]

It is a Chi Sao event as fighters must roll. They will break into Gro Sao at some point but must go back to rolling.

But good point. Right now it is 10 seconds before they must roll again. So maybe we should make that 5 seconds so they roll more.

Yes Oz I am coming! I have 3 schools interesting in training already in Oz. Can't wait! So the Comp will be in Oz as some point a well.

Think you should lower to 5 sec. When we roll we usually have what we call 3 sec rule which is just another way of saying you get to do 1-2 combos then back to rolling. 10 sec is along time if its chi sao your testing

[Alan Orr]

Think you should lower to 5 sec. When we roll we usually have what we call 3 sec rule which is just another way of saying you get to do 1-2 combos then back to rolling. 10 sec is along time if its chi sao your testing

Yes I agree. We will change it to 3 seconds. Thank you for your input

[Bacon]

Okay a question completely aside from my criticisms. Are you allowing the leg work in chi sao or restricting it to the hands? Are you doing proper, mobile chi sao with footwork or dead with feet planted?

[Alan Orr]

Okay a question completely aside from my criticisms. Are you allowing the leg work in chi sao or restricting it to the hands? Are you doing proper, mobile chi sao with footwork or dead with feet planted?

Yes all footwork and kicking allowed

[wingchunIan]

Yes I agree. We will change it to 3 seconds. Thank you for your input
Genuine questions out of pure curiosity,
Why have a time restriction on movement away from poon sao? Poon sao being only a neutral starting point and not chi sao surely the aim should be to only restart if the action is broken for any reason?

Alan, how does the scoring system work? do light contact shots to the head count for more or less than full force body shots? Is there any difference in points for shots to the throat?

[Alan Orr]

Genuine questions out of pure curiosity,
Why have a time restriction on movement away from poon sao? Poon sao being only a neutral starting point and not chi sao surely the aim should be to only restart if the action is broken for any reason?

Alan, how does the scoring system work? do light contact shots to the head count for more or less than full force body shots? Is there any difference in points for shots to the throat?

Not sure what you mean? Rolling and striking etc if it becomes a broken bridge or no response to attack then after 3 seconds restart. The opponent being hit and controlled is then losing. Part is for safety as well.

All rules are on
www.wingchunevents.co.uk

I will post them up on the forum when I get on my pc

[Shadow_Trickery]

You know Alan, it's okay to admit that you're wrong.

^ This. Not sure why people are so afraid of this - it's a forum after all!

[Bacon]

Yes all footwork and kicking allowed

Well at least there's that.

[Graham H]

Alan

Why don't you put some videos up of your students actually trying to hit you. Anybody can do this........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj9mTuia70A&feature=relmfu


Pointless unless you can make these things work in proper sparring which I haven't seen you do.

Your ideas on Tan Sau and Bong Sau in sparring are not good for fighting IMO and why most VT practitioners fail when their opponents are throwing uncontrolled un rehearsed punches.

Simply Teachers can make anything work with the co-operation of their students. Even in you demos you look lazy and like you are not trying. Maybe you are scared to show your real skills as it may shock the whole MA world with your prowess.


Post a video of you trying for once without your students throwing controlled slo mo punches and without them not fighting back when you are taking them down.

I would guess I would see anything much that you show in your vids. Maybe I'm wrong.

All I'll probably receive is more BS from you and your promoters.

Who was the guy earlier that accused Gledhill of being a Troll BTW........that guy was a clear out and out idiot

The End

[Sihing73]

Grahm,

Aside from the Chi Sao comps;

I would say that the proof is in the pudding so to speak.

Regardless of whether or not you think Alans clips show him in a realistic manner or not; the FACT is that his guys enter competitions and WIN or at least do well. This gives some credence to his approach.

What I find funny is that some people here deride others for not fighting and act like they have found the Holy Grail of Wing Chun. Yet when people go out, put their skills to the test and it works they are accused of using something other than Wing Chun.

Seems to me that the deriders should step up to the plate and put their skills on the line as well.................then maybe we can see the awesome highly skilled approach they advocate.

Bottom line is that some have opted to step up and test their skills while some sit on the sidelines and Monday morning quarterback while never showing anything even remotely resembling what they say others don't show.

Kind of makes me wonder ;)

Just for the record, I have never really been interested in competition. Not my cup of tea. I did try a few times after I got out of the Army and did compete when I did Judo but never really got into it. Besides..................I CHEAT LOL :D

[Wayfaring]

chi-sao competition = oxymoron

All right. Everyone's bagging on k. Maybe he brought it on, but whatever.

I think he is saying that chi sau is a drill mostly, and depending on what you're working on, more of a sensitivity drill at that. So turning it into a competition loses much of the value of the drill. Point taken.

k, on the other side of this, you can turn ANY drill into a competition, and from what I've seen in many WCK schools, that approach would benefit most to inspire them to put down their bag of cheese puffs and work up a sweat as opposed to the how shall I put it nicely - "more social" method they have of training when there is no competitive element to it.

[Wayfaring]

Pointless unless you can make these things work in proper sparring which I haven't seen you do.


There's absolutely no way a MMA team can amass a record like that without "proper sparring" to include ground training.

I don't think you're that dumb, so you must be a PB white knight in to rescue kev or something.

[anerlich]

Seems to me that the deriders should step up to the plate and put their skills on the line as well.................then maybe we can see the awesome highly skilled approach they advocate.

That's a bit unfair ... Bayer is dealing with resisting opponents (even though they are the students that G discounts as unworthy opponents) in the chi sao competition vids of him that Kev posted.

Haven't seen much of Kev and G at it though, you're correct there.

Plenty of vids of Alan's students fighting, so yes, G is talking crap.

[Alan Orr]

Grahm,

Aside from the Chi Sao comps;

I would say that the proof is in the pudding so to speak.

Regardless of whether or not you think Alans clips show him in a realistic manner or not; the FACT is that his guys enter competitions and WIN or at least do well. This gives some credence to his approach.

What I find funny is that some people here deride others for not fighting and act like they have found the Holy Grail of Wing Chun. Yet when people go out, put their skills to the test and it works they are accused of using something other than Wing Chun.

Seems to me that the deriders should step up to the plate and put their skills on the line as well.................then maybe we can see the awesome highly skilled approach they advocate.

Bottom line is that some have opted to step up and test their skills while some sit on the sidelines and Monday morning quarterback while never showing anything even remotely resembling what they say others don't show.

Kind of makes me wonder ;)

Just for the record, I have never really been interested in competition. Not my cup of tea. I did try a few times after I got out of the Army and did compete when I did Judo but never really got into it. Besides..................I CHEAT LOL :D


Excellent post!

It makes me laugh so much when Graham posts on my threads. He always makes the point that my guys success is based on my wing chun not being wing chun! As he keeps saying it was real wing chun like his then it wouldn't work! excellent! lol

[Alan Orr]

That's a bit unfair ... Bayer is dealing with resisting opponents (even though they are the students that G discounts as unworthy opponents) in the chi sao competition vids of him that Kev posted.

Haven't seen much of Kev and G at it though, you're correct there.

Plenty of vids of Alan's students fighting, so yes, G is talking crap.

I started to think maybe I am doing wing chun after all! Doh !

Many thanks for your support. Nice to know I am not alone.

[Alan Orr]

Alan

Why don't you put some videos up of your students actually trying to hit you. Anybody can do this........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj9mTuia70A&feature=relmfu


Pointless unless you can make these things work in proper sparring which I haven't seen you do.

Your ideas on Tan Sau and Bong Sau in sparring are not good for fighting IMO and why most VT practitioners fail when their opponents are throwing uncontrolled un rehearsed punches.

Simply Teachers can make anything work with the co-operation of their students. Even in you demos you look lazy and like you are not trying. Maybe you are scared to show your real skills as it may shock the whole MA world with your prowess.


Post a video of you trying for once without your students throwing controlled slo mo punches and without them not fighting back when you are taking them down.

I would guess I would see anything much that you show in your vids. Maybe I'm wrong.

All I'll probably receive is more BS from you and your promoters.

Who was the guy earlier that accused Gledhill of being a Troll BTW........that guy was a clear out and out idiot

The End


My students are trying to hit me -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKncYG7rUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OBn37HEnv0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg

These are just light training, but they are trying. You have a very limited mindset Graham and like Kev always jump on my threads to tell us about PB etc I have no idea why.

Yes when doing demo's I am lazy as its just a demo. Wing Chun is not an art of tension and stiffness as you have shown in your demo clip.

If my wing chun is so wrong then come to the chi sao event and enter and show us all how. It you have so much skill it should be more than easy. I will even match up with you so you can show me.

I'm not trying to tell everyone I am the best at wing chun. I really don't care. I am just showing the way we train as I think it can help people that are interested.

Funny thing is I get lots of emails from people that really like it. Also the fighters I teach do very well and are very happy. So why the f-ck would I care about what you think when you do not have a clue.


BTW what is proper sparring? I spar and my guys spar all the time. My guys fight in professional bouts. Is your 'proper' sparring like your wing chun? ie if it does work then it's correct lol