Bruce Lee

[k gledhill]

Good clip, he inspired many...Bil Gee is an open ended question , with unlimited answers.

http://youtu.be/depXMeGL3RU

[sihing]

Good Clip,,,Funny thing is most of the so called experts around here think Bruce sucked, lol...Perception is everything, some have it some don't:)

[Bacon]

He was an actor, not a fighter. But yes, he did inspire many people.

[sihing]

He was an actor, not a fighter. But yes, he did inspire many people.

I agree he wasn't a professional/amateur fighter, he didn't compete in events, but he could fight. I've read around here were ppl said he couldn't.

Also, your label "actor" yes he was that, as well as many other things, you said it he inspired ppl as well, so he wasn't just an actor. All of us are more than just the sum of our parts, Bruce played many roles/parts in his life, like we all do, to put him in a box and say he was just this or that (especially when you never met him, lol..) is a error in judgement IMO.

J

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eYrSuOxn2o&feature=g-vrec another one..

[Yoshiyahu]

In the clip you see him doing Chi Sau...You will never ever see him actually sparring.

In a demo any one can win if you go by certain rules...But in actual match..Ones gung fu could be proven by how well they fight!

[sihing]

In the clip you see him doing Chi Sau...You will never ever see him actually sparring.

In a demo any one can win if you go by certain rules...But in actual match..Ones gung fu could be proven by how well they fight!

In the one I posted there is no footage of him sparring, there is in other clips out there.

All I can say as someone that never met him, like everyone else around here, when I see him move, read about or watch other's talk about his ability, I make my own judgement about it, HE COULD FIGHT AND KICK ALL THE GUYS AROUND HERE ASSES..lol...

Since he's dead you and I will never really know how good he was, I'm not saying he was the world's best, but he could definetly fight, lol, to deny that is a fools choice:)

J

[k gledhill]

Bruce fought, WSL talks about him having early fights in HK challenges.

[Fa Xing]

I do JKD, anyone who wants to see what it's about can come to LA. I always need a good training partner.

[Phil Redmond]

I do JKD, anyone who wants to see what it's about can come to LA. I always need a good training partner.
I'm in LA. Where do you train?

[Phil Redmond]

Bruce fought, WSL talks about him having early fights in HK challenges.
Exactly Kev. Sifu Cheung also talks about the real street fights Bruce had. Plus, he fought against a boxer once.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For being "just an actor" he sure got and still gets a lot of respect from seasoned fighters.
Bas Rutten, Mike Tyson, The Gracies, Anderson Silva, Pac Man, the list goes on and on and on.

[Lucas]

For being "just an actor" he sure got and still gets a lot of respect from seasoned fighters.
Bas Rutten, Mike Tyson, The Gracies, Anderson Silva, Pac Man, the list goes on and on and on.

who would listen to all those scrubs?

[wtxs]

In the clip you see him doing Chi Sau...You will never ever see him actually sparring.

In a demo any one can win if you go by certain rules...But in actual match..Ones gung fu could be proven by how well they fight!


For being "just an actor" he sure got and still gets a lot of respect from seasoned fighters.
Bas Rutten, Mike Tyson, The Gracies, Anderson Silva, Pac Man, the list goes on and on and on.


who would listen to all those scrubs?

Certainly not Mr. know-it-all Master Yoshi ... :rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

Certainly not Mr. know-it-all Master Yoshi ... :rolleyes:

i just think he is a bit over rated..had he still been living people wouldnt refer to him as they do Elvis, or Tupac Shakur...People would have you believe this and that...Was Bruce Lee a fighter...I dont know...Alls i can say is the only evidence to him being a real fighter is all third hand information....at the end of the day you dont see him doing anything credible outside of some chi sau and inch punch demos.

But i will say he was in excellent condition!


An i love his kung fu in the movies!!!

But hey what about Jet Li is he a fighter?

[Jansingsang]

i just think he is a bit over rated..had he still been living people wouldnt refer to him as they do Elvis, or Tupac Shakur...People would have you believe this and that...Was Bruce Lee a fighter...I dont know...Alls i can say is the only evidence to him being a real fighter is all third hand information....at the end of the day you dont see him doing anything credible outside of some chi sau and inch punch demos.

But i will say he was in excellent condition!


An i love his kung fu in the movies!!!

But hey what about Jet Li is he a fighter?

Listen mate do your Research before you start running your gums He did Sparring
He saw himself as a Martial artist first!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVGZEFQusM

[Lucas]

I thought it was common knowledge that he fought wjm and at least held his own. I dont know someone not capable of fighting can do that?

was he a professional fighter? no lol. neither am I. I can still fight. but i am not a 'fighter'

i dont think bruce lee was a 'fighter'. but i think he could fight.

[sihing]

Third hand information? Can you not see how the man moved? At the very least you cannot deny the fact that he could 1) Move fast, hit fast, react fast 2) Hit hard 3) Kick fast and hard 4) Had knowledge about a variety of fighting methods 5) Ability to teach others some effective skills. What else do you need to be a good fighter??

Now since the man is dead, of course some of the information is from other sources, but where else would you get it. You see a video of him sparring, you have two ways to know if he is sparring well, by making your own observations and by asking the guy he was sparring, lol...

Man, some really need to look within themselves and ask if they have a brain or not.

I do agree, he has been made to be like a God, like some unbeatable fighter, I don't buy that stuff, but yeah he could kick my ass and most all those around here back in his prime.

Was he a fighter? I do believe he was, he just didn't compete, not much to compete in back in his day, and he was more than just a fighter, or actor, and he realized that. Not sure if he could take a punch though, you need that too to be a fighter...

J

[anerlich]

Just as well Bruce preceded the internet or like too many of us the only MA skills he had would have required a keyboard.

The guy trained far harder and was more committed to MA than all but a very few at the time or since. Probably more than half of you are doing WC because BL inspired you or your seniors.


Was Bruce Lee a fighter...I dont know

Are you an idiot .... Yes! Everyone knows!

[Bacon]

who would listen to all those scrubs?

I'm guessing they expect him for the two and only reasons I respect him. He brought martial arts to the mainstream in the west through being a good actor, and he started innovating and blending pieces of styles.

I respect him as an innovator but his skills as a fighter aren't all that people make them out to be. Tying to say that Bruce was any more than an okay fighter is like trying to claim that the Gracies were spectacular strikers.

[Jimbo]

I agree he wasn't a professional/amateur fighter, he didn't compete in events, but he could fight. I've read around here were ppl said he couldn't.

Also, your label "actor" yes he was that, as well as many other things, you said it he inspired ppl as well, so he wasn't just an actor. All of us are more than just the sum of our parts, Bruce played many roles/parts in his life, like we all do, to put him in a box and say he was just this or that (especially when you never met him, lol..) is a error in judgement IMO.

Good points.

A lot of people on forums like tossing little barbs at BL; usually what they really mean is, "I'm a better and more knowledgeable MAist than BL was." When in fact nobody can ever know. So BL wasn't a fighter because he didn't have the foresight to make videos of himself fighting to one day post in the far-flung future on u-tube? Seriously?

Obviously, BL wasn't the greatest fighter who ever lived. Who could ever claim that? It's a very big world, and I doubt he himself ever claimed such. But I'm certain he could have handled himself very well against most people.

There are tons of people out there who could tear the living crap out of most guys, and who are unknown and have never posted anything online. Many of whom have very little to no formal MA training. They are not professional fighters, but they can hurt you very badly, very quickly. To underestimate others you don't know because they're 'an actor', or whatever else they happen to be/have been, is a potentially dangerous form of delusion.

[LoneTiger108]

Good clip, he inspired many...Bil Gee is an open ended question , with unlimited answers.

http://youtu.be/depXMeGL3RU

It is nice to see a production from his family that contains some of the Oakland footage too. He was a difinitive inspiration for a 10 year old me but I lost interest later in my martial life for other more personal reasons.

On the 'could he or couldn't he' fight note... I have met and talked with 2 of his early students, and I bet some of you here have trained with one of these at least. Both had first hand accounts of witnessing Bruce fight, and learn from the experience, which IS what fighters do isn't it??

So he kicked ass and had his handed to him too in the earlier days. But once he stepped it up a gear and really became 'kung fu crazy!' I don't think there was anyone around at the time who could even touch him, and his closest friends thought the same.

FWIW He would have also loved the internet!! Haven't any of you guys read his book 'Tao of JKD'??? Some serious ramblings in there that wouldn't be out of place in these very forums imho :)

[Fa Xing]

I'm in LA. Where do you train?

I train off and on with the Chinatown JKD/WNG group (http://www.jkdwednite.com/), but I often don't have a lot of time because of school.

I have also trained with Ed Monaghan and the late Jerry Poteet.

Where in LA are you? I vaguely remember reading about your move here.

[Yoshiyahu]

Jet Li is a martial artist too...So is Steven Segal...hell Even Chuck Norris...

But the only one out the three who has done any real competition is Chuck Norris right?



Im not saying Lee isnt a martial artist...Im just saying he is a bit over rated!!!


Basically his claim to fame is his movies...Furthermore I have yet to see any one from Jeet Kune Do provide any real skill or fighting ability!!!


Forget it about it...Bring the Beimo Back to solve at this jaw jacking and arm chair fighting!



Listen mate do your Research before you start running your gums He did Sparring
He saw himself as a Martial artist first!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVGZEFQusM

[Fa Xing]

Jet Li is a martial artist too...So is Steven Segal...hell Even Chuck Norris...

But the only one out the three who has done any real competition is Chuck Norris right?



Im not saying Lee isnt a martial artist...Im just saying he is a bit over rated!!!


Basically his claim to fame is his movies...Furthermore I have yet to see any one from Jeet Kune Do provide any real skill or fighting ability!!!


Forget it about it...Bring the Beimo Back to solve at this jaw jacking and arm chair fighting!

http://www.youtube.com/jpm2112

http://www.youtube.com/user/jkdwng?feature=results_main

http://www.youtube.com/user/sifubrentlance

http://youtu.be/8KFmkqtMPd4

You really are that ignorant, aren't you? Come to LA. There are more than enough "JKD Fighters" here. Plus a lot of Dan Inosanto's students (which is a lot), who train MMA fighters don't always use the term Jeet Kune Do even though that's what it is or at the very least closely related to.

Learn before you speak (or write).

[sihing]

Good points.

A lot of people on forums like tossing little barbs at BL; usually what they really mean is, "I'm a better and more knowledgeable MAist than BL was." When in fact nobody can ever know. So BL wasn't a fighter because he didn't have the foresight to make videos of himself fighting to one day post in the far-flung future on u-tube? Seriously?

Obviously, BL wasn't the greatest fighter who ever lived. Who could ever claim that? It's a very big world, and I doubt he himself ever claimed such. But I'm certain he could have handled himself very well against most people.

There are tons of people out there who could tear the living crap out of most guys, and who are unknown and have never posted anything online. Many of whom have very little to no formal MA training. They are not professional fighters, but they can hurt you very badly, very quickly. To underestimate others you don't know because they're 'an actor', or whatever else they happen to be/have been, is a potentially dangerous form of delusion.

Very good post Jimbo. Your right, not everyone that can fight well compete's, it is a big world and to think that everyone that can fight want's to compete or can is ridiculous IMO. Yes, to enter into the competative world of combat will definetly make you a better fighter, as now it is your profession.

Yoki, lol, your a funny guy, of course his CLAIM TO FAME is thru the movies, lol, how else does one get Fame??? Such a judgemental person based on not even meeting the man for himself. Pound for pound Bruce was up there..end of story.

J

[Bacon]

Very good post Jimbo. Your right, not everyone that can fight well compete's, it is a big world and to think that everyone that can fight want's to compete or can is ridiculous IMO.
But if you want to be known as a fighter you have to. And to be known as a good fighter you have to fight some worthwhile opponents. Not everyone who can play music well performs, but those folks that don't aren't known as musicians.


Yes, to enter into the competative world of combat will definetly make you a better fighter, as now it is your profession.
Not necessarily. There are people who fight on a regular basis who have a regular full time job. But entering in fighting competition against other skilled opponents means you're a fighter. For example if I enter some no name jujitsu tournaments and win or submit a few punks on the street am I a grappler? Maybe, but not one who's very skilled or known to be. If I win or do well in the ADCC Or the Mundials am I a grappler? Yes, and very much known to be so.


Yoki, lol, your a funny guy, of course his CLAIM TO FAME is thru the movies, lol, how else does one get Fame???
By fighting skilled opponents again and again and again.



Such a judgemental person based on not even meeting the man for himself. Pound for pound Bruce was up there..end of story.

J

Meeting him isn't required. We're working from his competition record which is word of mouth only and even then not impressive in the least. Best up there? Not even close. Anderson Silva, George St. Pierre, Randy Couture, Muhammed Ali, George Foreman, Rickson Gracie... These are people who were/are great pound for pound fighters. Bruce never even attempted to fight people of this calibre.

He was an actor, not a fighter. He looked good and he made lots of noise. Ali did too, but he has a pro fight record against some of the best in the world to back it up. They weren't exactly open rules like MMA but at least he did SOMETHING.

[sihing]

But if you want to be known as a fighter you have to. And to be known as a good fighter you have to fight some worthwhile opponents. Not everyone who can play music well performs, but those folks that don't aren't known as musicians.


Not necessarily. There are people who fight on a regular basis who have a regular full time job. But entering in fighting competition against other skilled opponents means you're a fighter. For example if I enter some no name jujitsu tournaments and win or submit a few punks on the street am I a grappler? Maybe, but not one who's very skilled or known to be. If I win or do well in the ADCC Or the Mundials am I a grappler? Yes, and very much known to be so.


By fighting skilled opponents again and again and again.




Meeting him isn't required. We're working from his competition record which is word of mouth only and even then not impressive in the least. Best up there? Not even close. Anderson Silva, George St. Pierre, Randy Couture, Muhammed Ali, George Foreman, Rickson Gracie... These are people who were/are great pound for pound fighters. Bruce never even attempted to fight people of this calibre.

He was an actor, not a fighter. He looked good and he made lots of noise. Ali did too, but he has a pro fight record against some of the best in the world to back it up. They weren't exactly open rules like MMA but at least he did SOMETHING.

First your attaching a label to Bruce (that of a Fighter), maybe that is something that you attach importance too, maybe he didn't. I don't know if he considered himself a fighter or not, or if he ever called himself a fighter or not, but it is all up to the individual as to what they want to do with their lives, not for you or I to make that decision for them. Your applying your own needs and wants to Bruce and then judging him on it.

The people you mentioned, Ali, Anderson, etc...Bruce had no exposure to those ppl, or to that calibre of ppl. You expect him to just drop what he was doing (trying to survive with a family) and train to become a top boxer??? Lol, because you think he needs to do this to deserve the title of a Fighter?? Man I am glad he never did anything as stupid as that, we would have never heard of him if he did, and his name would be out of the scene by 76'.

Being an inspiration, too me that is a great thing. Yes I know his name has been elevated to a God like status of some mystical fighter, I know that is BS, but he could fight, who cares if the title is not there to rep it, lol...plus I've never personally said he was the Best, they should take that word out of the dictionary..same with Perfect..


You guys are funny:)

J

[EternalSpring]

Jet Li is a martial artist too...So is Steven Segal...hell Even Chuck Norris...

But the only one out the three who has done any real competition is Chuck Norris right?



Im not saying Lee isnt a martial artist...Im just saying he is a bit over rated!!!


Basically his claim to fame is his movies...Furthermore I have yet to see any one from Jeet Kune Do provide any real skill or fighting ability!!!


Forget it about it...Bring the Beimo Back to solve at this jaw jacking and arm chair fighting!

Actually, I think Jet Li, on his own blog, is very clear about stating that he hasn't been in a fight and never wants to engage in combat (http://jetli.com/jet/index.php?l=en&s=body&ss=questions&p=x&date=001020).

The fact that Bruce Lee trained martial arts for fighting rather than for performance is painstakingly obvious imo. It doesn't take much to listen to or read BL's words on martial arts and see that his views obviously value training martial arts to be effective in application as opposed to anything else. What do you think JKD is? A style of fighting made for performance? Obviously not. It would seem that the opposite is true as Bruce Lee really seemed to be against any type of fighting training that was flashy rather than effective. A person can be an actor and a martial artist at the same time. They dont have to just choose one or the other. I'm not even some huge Bruce Lee fan, but imo a person has to be extremely ignorant or oblivious to think that BL's aim in training martial arts was for acting (which is what is implied when people say he was "an actor first, not a martial artist"). To think that, you'd literally have to ignore everything Bruce Lee has said about martial arts and then replace that with something he never expressed.

[Bacon]

As a martial artist fighting other game, fit, and skilled fighters is the only real test of your abilities. You claimed he was on of the best pound for pound. I showed why clearly that is not the case. There are many fighters who have families tying to make it. Take every guy on The Ultimate Fighter as an example.

He may not have had exposure to these people in particular but there were plenty of other real fighters of the day who he could've fought with. The Gracies had families, had no competitive format to clash with high caliber people so they went out and found them, they created a format. They did whatever possible to be the best. Bruce starred in movies and supposedly fought a few people who never did anything of repute.

A fighter is a martial artist who can prove their skills. Bruce was not a fighter hence why his skills are in serious doubt.

[sihing]

As a martial artist fighting other game, fit, and skilled fighters is the only real test of your abilities. You claimed he was on of the best pound for pound. I showed why clearly that is not the case. There are many fighters who have families tying to make it. Take every guy on The Ultimate Fighter as an example.

He may not have had exposure to these people in particular but there were plenty of other real fighters of the day who he could've fought with. The Gracies had families, had no competitive format to clash with high caliber people so they went out and found them, they created a format. They did whatever possible to be the best. Bruce starred in movies and supposedly fought a few people who never did anything of repute.

A fighter is a martial artist who can prove their skills. Bruce was not a fighter hence why his skills are in serious doubt.

I love your confidence and the way you express yourself, like you actually know what Bruce Lee was about and how good he was, LMAO..

Like I said, funny:)

J

[Bacon]

I love your confidence and the way you express yourself, like you actually know what Bruce Lee was about and how good he was, LMAO..

Like I said, funny:)

J

That's my point though. I don't, you don't, and the only way we would is if he had actually fought people who were any good. Hence his skills are in doubt.

[sihing]

That's my point though. I don't, you don't, and the only way we would is if he had actually fought people who were any good. Hence his skills are in doubt.

The Doubt you write about above, is only YOUR doubt.

I don't have that Doubt, so it eases your Doubt, in the cosmic world it's even:)

J

[Bacon]

The Doubt you write about above, is only YOUR doubt.

I don't have that Doubt, so it eases your Doubt, in the cosmic world it's even:)

J

You're brining in the same argument religious folks bring about god. I'm not saying god doesn't exist and I'm not saying Bruce may not have had good skills but the burden of proof is on the person making the claim and since it's not possible to prove a negative in either case the burden of proof is on those saying Bruce had the skills. Since Bruce never fought and the claim is not verifiable or falsifiable his skills are in doubt to anyone who understands burden of proof and the scientific method.

[sihing]

You're brining in the same argument religious folks bring about god. I'm not saying god doesn't exist and I'm not saying Bruce may not have had good skills but the burden of proof is on the person making the claim and since it's not possible to prove a negative in either case the burden of proof is on those saying Bruce had the skills. Since Bruce never fought and the claim is not verifiable or falsifiable his skills are in doubt to anyone who understands burden of proof and the scientific method.

Yes but we're talking subjective here, Bruce is not a scientific experiement, too many variables to disect.

I'm not saying he was the best or anything like that, or that he could compete with the top pro boxers of that time, the way he was then. But he could compete if he had wanted to, that is the thing, did he?

Was he an effective fighter in the sense of defending himself, yes for sure. Could he beat everyone, no, but no fighter can.

J

[Lucas]

Bruce Lee did not fight to any recorded degree. However, he undoubtably had great attributes for a fighter, as well as skills demonstrations that only an accomplished martial artist could achieve. This is not arguable as the evidence is present for all to see.

Now could he apply those skill sets and those attributes in a match against a trained fighter? Who knows? One thing that is also in evidence is his devotion to martial arts, and the intention of his studies to create a more competent, effecient, and powerful fighter.

We will never know how well he would have fared against trained fighters.

This argument is rediculous.

[Bacon]

Yes but we're talking subjective here, Bruce is not a scientific experiement, too many variables to disect.
Exactly... Lots of variables. But the burden of proof is still on those making the affirmative claim. You cannot say anything about his fighting skills being good because he didn't fight anyone of repute.


I'm not saying he was the best or anything like that,
...

Pound for pound Bruce was up there..end of story.



or that he could compete with the top pro boxers of that time, the way he was then. But he could compete if he had wanted to, that is the thing, did he? and I could if I want to. Have I? No. Your argument is ridiculous. There is no proof for Bruce's fighting ability. End of story.


Was he an effective fighter in the sense of defending himself, yes for sure. Could he beat everyone, no, but no fighter can.
And the captain obvious award goes to...

[Bacon]

Bruce Lee did not fight to any recorded degree. However, he undoubtably had great attributes for a fighter, as well as skills demonstrations that only an accomplished martial artist could achieve. This is not arguable as the evidence is present for all to see.

Now could he apply those skill sets and those attributes in a match against a trained fighter? Who knows? One thing that is also in evidence is his devotion to martial arts, and the intention of his studies to create a more competent, effecient, and powerful fighter.

We will never know how well he would have fared against trained fighters.

This argument is rediculous.

So there are reasonable and intelligent people here!

[Lucas]

So there are reasonable and intelligent people here!

Don't look at me!!!!

[Bacon]

http://cdn.stripersonline.com/5/50/50923abc_watching-you-Focker.jpeg

[Lucas]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01378/Robert-De-Niro_1378583i.jpg

[wenshu]

Didn't he fight in amateur boxing tournaments in Hong Kong in the fifties?

[Jimbo]

Apparently, BL sparred against and dominated Louis Delgado, one of the top karate competition fighters of the 1960s era, and who had beaten Chuck Norris in competition; and who had fought against Joe lewis and many of the other top fighters of his time. Supposedly, Delgado had stated that BL was the toughest fighter he ever met.

I'm not one who worships BL, but I think it's safe to say that, although he wasn't a pro fighter or even a competition fighter outside of some experiences in his earlier years, he could certainly fight.

[Jansingsang]

I think this article sheds a little more light on his fighting ability from credible fighters. For me this man had a deep understanding of Martial combat application. Every hundred years a human being of this caliber comes along to inspire us all ! :cool:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/jfjkd/Wpt.htm

[Bacon]

I think this article sheds a little more light on his fighting ability from credible fighters. For me this man had a deep understanding of Martial combat application. Every hundred years a human being of this caliber comes along to inspire us all ! :cool:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/jfjkd/Wpt.htm

I think we have enough for a few centuries with Anderson Silva and Randy Couture.

[Lucas]

Fedor!!!! :d

[sihing]

Exactly... Lots of variables. But the burden of proof is still on those making the affirmative claim. You cannot say anything about his fighting skills being good because he didn't fight anyone of repute.


...



and I could if I want to. Have I? No. Your argument is ridiculous. There is no proof for Bruce's fighting ability. End of story.


And the captain obvious award goes to...

There is no "Burden" of proof, lol, I have no need to prove how good Bruce was to anyone, just having a discussion, the evidence is clear by itself:)

J

[Sihing73]

There is no "Burden" of proof, lol, I have no need to prove how good Bruce was to anyone, just having a discussion, the evidence is clear by itself:)

J

Hello,

While Bruce may not have fought anyone, the fact is that several of those who trained with him went on to compete and do well;
Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris for example.

Also, several of the early students were street fighters like James Demille and Jesse Glover. I would venture to say that if he had no real skills these types of people would most likely have gone elsewhere.

[sihing]

We here will never know for ourselves how good he was, he's dead. It's just funny how so sure some ppl are, they, based on not enough evidence (you can't see it when he moves???), they "think" (I've thought lots of things only to later on think something different, how reliable is thought??) he wasn't good or a proven fighter.

Like others have said, ppl will see what they want to see, problem with that is that it isn't reality. Is it better to live in fanatasy or reality?? You decide.

J

[Wayfaring]

While Bruce may not have fought anyone, the fact is that several of those who trained with him went on to compete and do well;
Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris for example.


His peers attested to his fighting skills, including the above two men. And Lewis and Norris were winning bing on the karate tournament and kickboxing tournaments of their time, so their endorsement carries weight.

But yes, Bruce was primarily an actor, and not a tournament champion or kickboxing pro with a record.

[Lucas]

This vid is awesome.

Bruce Lee Nunchaku Ping Pong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SncapPrTusA)

[mun hung]

This is by far the funniest thread I've read in a good while.

Bruce Lee was a trouble maker as a teen in HK. He liked to fight. As soon as he learned something, he would try it out. He was in many street fights growing up. He got in lots of trouble in HK because of it. Some would say it was the reason why he had to leave HK in the first place.

To say Bruce Lee was just an actor that couldn't really fight or wasn't a good fighter is just stupid. This guy was no punk. He was intelligent, had a great kung fu instructor, was in excellent shape, had excellent coordination (HK cha cha champion), had streetfighting experience, had nuts and a huge ego. What else would you need? A gold medal and a trophy?

I don't have a Bruce Lee shrine in my house anywhere, but the man gets nothing but respect from me. And if you think you're better than him - you need to wake up.

[anerlich]

So there are reasonable and intelligent people here!

Yes, but you are not among them. You seem to be on an anti-Bruce crusade.

Get a hobby or a pet or a girlfriend or something.

[k gledhill]

Daron Cruickshank mma fighter , after winning ufc 151 bout, shows his mouth-guard to the camera with a figure on it of BL and shouts BRUCE LEE !! :D

[Wayfaring]

To say Bruce Lee was just an actor that couldn't really fight or wasn't a good fighter is just stupid. This guy was no punk. He was intelligent, had a great kung fu instructor, was in excellent shape, had excellent coordination (HK cha cha champion), had streetfighting experience, had nuts and a huge ego. What else would you need? A gold medal and a trophy?


The point made by some to keep the Bruce nuthugging in check is that he did not have a fight record. Others of his contemporaries did have a fight record. Some made a living from fighting. So if you really want to get technical about it, what was he? A great fighter that had no official fights? That's a little oxymoronic.

There are elements about taking a fight that put together conditioning, coordination, and experience in a way that you don't have without doing that.

So there are a number of question marks left in history when people start to claim he was a great fighter. He was an actor, and its highly likely that the contracts he signed as an actor would have prevented him from taking full contact fights.

[LFJ]

A great fighter that had no official fights? That's a little oxymoronic.

How so? :confused:

Suggesting you can't be a great fighter, or even a fighter at all, without official fights is just moronic.

Maybe you need official fights to be a sport fighting athlete, but to be a fighter you just have to fight, not join a sports club and compete.

Since when did being a fighter become synonymous with being a sport fighting athlete, as opposed to say.... someone who fights? :rolleyes:

[mun hung]

How so? :confused:

Suggesting you can't be a great fighter, or even a fighter at all, without official fights is just moronic.

Maybe you need official fights to be a sport fighting athlete, but to be a fighter you just have to fight, not join a sports club and compete.

Since when did being a fighter become synonymous with being a sport fighting athlete, as opposed to say.... someone who fights? :rolleyes:

Exactly.... Thank you!

[GlennR]

How so? :confused:

Suggesting you can't be a great fighter, or even a fighter at all, without official fights is just moronic.

Maybe you need official fights to be a sport fighting athlete, but to be a fighter you just have to fight, not join a sports club and compete.

Since when did being a fighter become synonymous with being a sport fighting athlete, as opposed to say.... someone who fights? :rolleyes:

Ok, so lets say he is a good fighter, what do you hope to garnish from this to improve you, as a martial artist/fighter?

Im sure he trained very hard, had considerable talent and was somewhat revolutionary for his time......... but isnt it time WC people looked forward rather than back?

[k gledhill]

Ok, so lets say he is a good fighter, what do you hope to garnish from this to improve you, as a martial artist/fighter?

Im sure he trained very hard, had considerable talent and was somewhat revolutionary for his time......... but isnt it time WC people looked forward rather than back?

He inspired millions of us by his 'portrayal' of martial arts on the big screen. Its condescending to say WC peeps alone should look forwards...its todays mma champions bringing him up in the clip posted, hello !

Woohhoohooo!!! whataaaa !! ....body falls...., worked for me :D

[GlennR]

He inspired millions of us by his 'portrayal' of martial arts on the big screen. Its condescending to say WC peeps alone should look forwards...its todays mma champions bringing him up in the clip posted, hello !

Woohhoohooo!!! whataaaa !! ....body falls...., worked for me :D

Gee, sorry for referring to people on a WC forum as WC people.........

I never said he didn't inspire anyone, especially WC people, im just saying that an almost religious view of him can make someone lose their objectivity in regards to combat training.

But i dont want to rain on anyone's parade, so adulate away

[GlennR]

He inspired millions of us by his 'portrayal' of martial arts on the big screen. Its condescending to say WC peeps alone should look forwards...its todays mma champions bringing him up in the clip posted, hello !

Woohhoohooo!!! whataaaa !! ....body falls...., worked for me :D

Gee, sorry for referring to people on a WC forum as WC people.........

I never said he didn't inspire anyone, especially WC people, im just saying that an almost religious view of him can make someone lose their objectivity in regards to combat training.

But i dont want to rain on anyone's parade, so adulate away

[anerlich]

I dunno Glenn, I don't really think anyone here really has problems realising that what BL did wasn't WC, and I don't think anyone actually worships him.

Not easy to find WC inspiration in this world, let alone this forum, you have to take it where you can find it.

Nothing wrong with this, though you have to wonder about about the mental state of those talking about circle jerks and nuthugging in the context ... :p

[LFJ]

Ok, so lets say he is a good fighter, what do you hope to garnish from this to improve you, as a martial artist/fighter?

Im sure he trained very hard, had considerable talent and was somewhat revolutionary for his time......... but isnt it time WC people looked forward rather than back?

I honestly don't care one way or the other. My thing is not so much about Bruce Lee. I haven't even seen all his movies all the way through. I get antsy sitting around too long, so I hardly ever watch movies.

It's just the comment that one can't be a fighter if one doesn't have an official record. I don't know if it's insulting people's intelligence to pretend they actually believe what they're saying, but somehow I hope they don't. It's just plain stupid.

Plenty of martial arts teachers aren't sport fighting athletes. I assume we'd want to learn to fight from a good fighter. I wonder how many WC practitioners here saying things like this have Sifus with a sport fighting record...

[GlennR]

I dunno Glenn, I don't really think anyone here really has problems realising that what BL did wasn't WC, and I don't think anyone actually worships him.

Id like to agree with you, but there seems to be a few that want to see something thats not there...... an unbeatable killing machine who had profound wisdom in all things combat


Not easy to find WC inspiration in this world, let alone this forum, you have to take it where you can find it.

I guess thats my point, lets get some guys that inspire us (and the new folks) now, Alans guys are doing a great job at that, shame there arent more.


Nothing wrong with this, though you have to wonder about about the mental state of those talking about circle jerks and nuthugging in the context ... :p


Lets be honest, if youve been on this forum as long as you, me and some of the others... youd have to question our own mental state! ;)

[GlennR]

It's just the comment that one can't be a fighter if one doesn't have an official record. I don't know if it's insulting people's intelligence to pretend they actually believe what they're saying, but somehow I hope they don't. It's just plain stupid.

But boy that record still helps.
Look i can only go from my own experience and having gone from a pure WC line with only a bit of sparring to a mixture of WC, MT and boxing with a lot of sparring that im a better fighter, sport or self defense, period.
So regarding the argument about who are the better fighters, on the whole id say sports combat guys.

BUT, there is, as in all walks of life, exceptions to the rule.


Plenty of martial arts teachers aren't sport fighting athletes. I assume we'd want to learn to fight from a good fighter. I wonder how many WC practitioners here saying things like this have Sifus with a sport fighting record...


They wont, not sure of the point your trying to make here?

[LFJ]

Look i can only go from my own experience and having gone from a pure WC line with only a bit of sparring to a mixture of WC, MT and boxing with a lot of sparring that im a better fighter, sport or self defense, period.

Of course, going from anything with only a bit of sparring to whatever with a lot of sparring is obviously going to make you a better fighter...


So regarding the argument about who are the better fighters, on the whole id say sports combat guys.

Sports combat guys vs who? WC practitioners who barely spar, much less actually fight? Obviously...

Who would be the better fighter between one who spars a lot and one who actually fights a lot (assuming style, aptitude, etc. is the same)?

If you say the one who spars, then you're just as illusioned by sports about what fighting is as that Bacon guy who says you need a record or you're not a fighter.


They wont, not sure of the point your trying to make here?

Same point. Plenty of WCK Sifus are excellent fighters with practical experience, but don't have official records because they aren't sport fighting athletes. I wonder if Bacon's WCK Sifu has an official record. If not, he shouldn't be learning to fight from a non-fighter.

[GlennR]

Of course, going from anything with only a bit of sparring to whatever with a lot of sparring is obviously going to make you a better fighter...

Its amazing the bites you can get with a bit of bait.


Sports combat guys vs who? WC practitioners who barely spar, much less actually fight? Obviously...

Sports guys verses anyone. Seriously, the level of intensity they train when preparing for a fight, if done properly, is confronting.
Im honest enough to say that it opened my eyes when i stepped into a Muay Thai gym.
I assume youve experienced the same when you visited and trained at a similar gym?


Who would be the better fighter between one who spars a lot and one who actually fights a lot (assuming style, aptitude, etc. is the same)?

Before we go on, whats your experience of high level sparring?


If you say the one who spars, then you're just as illusioned by sports about what fighting is as that Bacon guy who says you need a record or you're not a fighter.


Its disillusioned
So who are these guys that "fight a lot"???


Same point. Plenty of WCK Sifus are excellent fighters with practical experience, but don't have official records because they aren't sport fighting athletes. I wonder if Bacon's WCK Sifu has an official record. If not, he shouldn't be learning to fight from a non-fighter

How do you know they are excellent fighters?
Hearsay?
Rumours?
Reputation?
Bulging arms with impressive tattoos?
Impressive use of the chinese language in chi-sao demonstrations?

So the inference is that you've "experienced a lot of real fighting" with your WC skills.
Care to elaborate?

[LFJ]

Before we go on, whats your experience of high level sparring?

If it's sparring, death by intentional excessive force or the use of weapons is not a risk.


Its disillusioned

Thanks, but that's the antonym. To be disillusioned by sports you must have first been illusioned, which you still are if you think sparring is the same as fighting.


So who are these guys that "fight a lot"???

Fighters.


How do you know they are excellent fighters?

Observance.


So the inference is that you've "experienced a lot of real fighting" with your WC skills.
Care to elaborate?

Did I actually infer anything about myself? But sure, I've used it. Have you not?

[GlennR]

If it's sparring, death by intentional excessive force or the use of weapons is not a risk.

Well surely a good hard round or three with a MT guy would be a breeze with you...... as long as he "aint packing" hey?



Thanks, but that's the antonym. To be disillusioned by sports you must have first been illusioned, which you still are if you think sparring is the same as fighting.

You havent sparred have you?


Fighters.

Talkers


Observance.


Ignorance


Did I actually infer anything about myself? But sure, I've used it. Have you not?

Yes, casting firm opinions about hard sparring AND fighting (as you have) would suggest youve done both.
You obviously havent, i have, so you really are coming from a point of inexperience.

Any pointers i can give you?
Im feeling generous today.

[LFJ]

lol...

Okay. So hard sparring and actual fighting are exactly the same to you? You must have been lucky to fight some nice fellas who weren't trying to actually kill you.

[GlennR]

lol...

Okay. So hard sparring and actual fighting are exactly the same to you? You must have been lucky to fight some nice fellas who weren't trying to actually kill you.


You still haven't discussed with me the experiences you have had with Mt, boxing etc in a full contact environment.

You must have missed my question about your experiences.

So could you let us know about your experiences that led you to your sparring v fighting conclusions?

[LFJ]

Sure, I have my own experience, but is it difficult to understand that no matter how hard you spar, no one is actually trying to kill the other person?

How many deaths have occurred in the octagon or at your gym?
How many deaths have resulted from fights on the street?

A guy just got killed at the busstop outside my home a couple weeks ago. There's still a huge bloodstain across the road where he bled out. The attacker didn't stop when he "tapped" or when the "ref" stepped in. He just killed the hell out of him until he died.

But you're telling me sparring and fighting are the same, right?

[GlennR]

But you're telling me sparring and fighting are the same, right?

I never said that, what i did say was that from my experience sports trained fighters, and im talking boxers, Mt, MMA and BJJ guys, are better fighters due to their training which involves A LOT of sparring.

In most cases, IMO, that will make a better fighter

Its just more real, it involves pain, fear, adrenalin, aggression, fitness and discipline than what i have seen in the traditional styles.

Ive experienced both.

Youve enjoyed your cheap shot about my "bit" of sparring i did as a WC guy, so now that ive given my experience man up and give me/us yours in both areas, or admit youre limited in your experience ,and shouldnt have shot your, all to noisy, mouth off.

[LFJ]

Okay. It sure seemed like that's what you were saying when I said sparring and fighting aren't the same and from that you assumed I haven't sparred, then questioned how I came to my sparring vs fighting conclusion.

I first trained other traditional styles when I took up martial arts. It was Qixing Tanglangquan and Songshan Shaolin, both of which involved a lot of heaving sparring every day, and not just sanda competition style, but hooks in the eyes, nut shots, knees, elbows and all. As brutal as it got, no one ever tried to kill me.

Later on when I became a teacher, in my first place I had both Boxing instructors and a MT instructor from Thailand teaching out of the same space. I did hard sparring with them as well. Their styles were different, but didn't make a difference in how we sparred. And we still never tried to kill each other.

I've also defended myself from people actually trying to kill me using the same skills. But it's not like sparring, no matter how hard you go. In sparring, you're trying to beat the other guy and not get hit. You know at the end of the day you might go home injured, but you're going home. In fighting, you're just trying to get out alive. The reality is worlds apart and no amount of sparring really prepares you for that. The mentality is all different.

[GlennR]

Okay. It sure seemed like that's what you were saying when I said sparring and fighting aren't the same and from that you assumed I haven't sparred, then questioned how I came to my sparring vs fighting conclusion.

I first trained other traditional styles when I took up martial arts. It was Qixing Tanglangquan and Songshan Shaolin, both of which involved a lot of heaving sparring every day, and not just sanda competition style, but hooks in the eyes, nut shots, knees, elbows and all. As brutal as it got, no one ever tried to kill me.

Later on when I became a teacher, in my first place I had both Boxing instructors and a MT instructor from Thailand teaching out of the same space. I did hard sparring with them as well. Their styles were different, but didn't make a difference in how we sparred. And we still never tried to kill each other.

I've also defended myself from people actually trying to kill me using the same skills. But it's not like sparring, no matter how hard you go. In sparring, you're trying to beat the other guy and not get hit. You know at the end of the day you might go home injured, but you're going home. In fighting, you're just trying to get out alive. The reality is worlds apart and no amount of sparring really prepares you for that. The mentality is all different.

Finally, thankyou for that.

It seems you do have a good experience of sparring.

Back to the conversation. My point is that i feel that the hard ,often confronting ,sparring and training in above mentioned styles IS a good grounding for street survival as oppose to MOST of the traditional WC out there.

You seem to disagree so id ask wjat you don in your WC training that helps with the street survival

[LFJ]

My point is that i feel that the hard ,often confronting ,sparring and training in above mentioned styles IS a good grounding for street survival as oppose to MOST of the traditional WC out there.

You seem to disagree so id ask wjat you don in your WC training that helps with the street survival

I don't disagree.

If I didn't have the sparring experience I had, I'd likely be dead or crippled. And I've seen plenty of traditionalists who after years of poor, unrealistic training, couldn't defend themselves for anything. As a teacher, I've had people come in who had been training for 10+ years in another traditional style school, and while their forms were not bad, 3 month students wiped the floor with them in sparring. It was embarrassing to watch.

My thing is that still, sparring is not fighting. People who have experienced that reality will be more prepared to deal with it again, no matter what sort of official record one has from sport competitions. And that is not a prerequisite to being a good fighter.

Things to do in training to prepare for street survival would be setting up more realistic scenarios than sparring in a ring. Going outside to the alleyway. Being cornered and attacked by more than one opponent using more than fists and feet. You may get "killed" several times in the process, but that is far more useful of an experience than 1on1 in the ring with a ref, timer, etc..

[GlennR]

I don't disagree.

If I didn't have the sparring experience I had, I'd likely be dead or crippled. And I've seen plenty of traditionalists who after years of poor, unrealistic training, couldn't defend themselves for anything. As a teacher, I've had people come in who had been training for 10+ years in another traditional style school, and while their forms were not bad, 3 month students wiped the floor with them in sparring. It was embarrassing to watch.

Ive had almost identical experiences


My thing is that still, sparring is not fighting. People who have experienced that reality will be more prepared to deal with it again, no matter what sort of official record one has from sport competitions. And that is not a prerequisite to being a good fighter.

My thoughts would be in regards to street is that you arent a good fighter, youre a good survivor.


Things to do in training to prepare for street survival would be setting up more realistic scenarios than sparring in a ring. Going outside to the alleyway. Being cornered and attacked by more than one opponent using more than fists and feet. You may get "killed" several times in the process, but that is far more useful of an experience than 1on1 in the ring with a ref, timer, etc..


Personally, i think you need both.
The one good thing about sparring with pads etc is you get to throw big shots etc, harder to do unpadded in an alley trying to get awareness etc.

So ill agree with you but i believe you need hard sparring AS WELL .

[LFJ]

The one good thing about sparring with pads etc is you get to throw big shots etc, harder to do unpadded in an alley trying to get awareness etc.

You can do padded in an alley too! That's kind of what I meant, to make it as realistic as possible you have to be able to throw big.


So ill agree with you but i believe you need hard sparring AS WELL .

Then we agree all around. I never meant to say regular sparring doesn't have it's place.

[GlennR]

You can do padded in an alley too! That's kind of what I meant, to make it as realistic as possible you have to be able to throw big.



Then we agree all around. I never meant to say regular sparring doesn't have it's place.

Glad to see we finally see eye to eye

[LFJ]

I don't think we actually didn't see eye to eye on this. I just thought you shared the same viewpoint as Bacon with regards to who is and isn't a fighter based on whether or not they are a sport fighting athlete with an official record, regardless of whether they actually fight. :rolleyes: He may not be a Bruce Lee nuthugger, but he just exchanged Bruce with MMAs.

[Bacon]

I don't think we actually didn't see eye to eye on this. I just thought you shared the same viewpoint as Bacon with regards to who is and isn't a fighter based on whether or not they are a sport fighting athlete with an official record, regardless of whether they actually fight. :rolleyes: He may not be a Bruce Lee nuthugger, but he just exchanged Bruce with MMAs.

Nope not at all. It has nothing to do with nuthugging any fighting ruleset like MMA, or any style, or individual. It's about verifiable proof of having fought skilled opponents. For example Kimbo slice may have had plenty of street fighting experience. He beat a lot of big dudes but when taken into the ring he got his butt handed to him by people who fought skilled opponents on a regular basis. That's what happens. That's why even though he had verifiable proof of having fought those fights they don't matter for anything.

Now if you had video proof of beating up Randy Couture, Muhammed Ali, Chuck Liddell, Bill Wallace, Rickson Gracie, or anyone of their caliber in street fights then I'd take you seriously, and essentially that's what Vale Tudo was/is. But sad hand-me-down stories about having been in street fights with no name nobodies AND no evidence to back it up, doesn't mean squat and that's all Bruce ever had.

Helio Grace as an example may have had stories about street fighting in Brazil but he also had proof of his skill as evidenced by lasting in a match with Kimura.

[GlennR]

Helio Grace as an example may have had stories about street fighting in Brazil but he also had proof of his skill as evidenced by lasting in a match with Kimura.



Thats a good point actually, Helio had that defining fight ,to put him on the map so to speak, after which his skill was undeniable.

[anerlich]

Id like to agree with you, but there seems to be a few that want to see something thats not there...... an unbeatable killing machine who had profound wisdom in all things combat

That's probably true. OTOH there seem to be a few who feel that putting down high-profile people in MA somehow makes them feel or sound worldly and sophisticated. I wouldn't put all the naysayers in that category, but some on this thread, definitely.

One doesn't have to be a fighter to get kudos as a trainer in boxing ... only in TCMA, where paradoxically very few trainers actually fight except in long ago unverifiable street encounters. Everyone seems to demand battle-hardened TCMA trainers who, with few exceptions, in reality don't exist.

My WC instructor had 37 pro and over 100 amateur ring fights. My BJJ instructor gold medalled in masters BJJ in Brazil and fought pro shooto in Japan in the 90's.

IMO it's not their fighting experience, but their love for their respective arts and their decades of teaching experience that makes them top notch instructors.

[GlennR]

That's probably true. OTOH there seem to be a few who feel that putting down high-profile people in MA somehow makes them feel or sound worldly and sophisticated. I wouldn't put all the naysayers in that category, but some on this thread, definitely.

For sure. Its exactly like the Tyson thing in boxing with "experts" saying he was a rubbish heavyweight and wouldnt have made the top 50. All very fashionable now to tow that line and it seems the same with the BL thing.


One doesn't have to be a fighter to get kudos as a trainer in boxing ... only in TCMA, where paradoxically very few trainers actually fight except in long ago unverifiable street encounters. Everyone seems to demand battle-hardened TCMA trainers who, with few exceptions, in reality don't exist.


Exactly, but its the BS created by some of these instructors (and subsequently their students) that seems to paint everyone with the same brush


My WC instructor had 37 pro and over 100 amateur ring fights. My BJJ instructor gold medalled in masters BJJ in Brazil and fought pro shooto in Japan in the 90's.

IMO it's not their fighting experience, but their love for their respective arts and their decades of teaching experience that makes them top notch instructors.


Though im sure their odd fight or two didnt hurt their ability to instruct ;)

[Bacon]

For sure. Its exactly like the Tyson thing in boxing with "experts" saying he was a rubbish heavyweight and wouldnt have made the top 50. All very fashionable now to tow that line and it seems the same with the BL thing.


Apples and oranges. Tyson retired with a pro record of 50-6-0. Remind me what Bruce's record was and name some notable people he fought.

And FYI it's "toe the line"

[anerlich]

Though im sure their odd fight or two didnt hurt their ability to instruct

No indeed, though I would also say fighting experience alone doesn't make one a good instructor.


Apples and oranges.

As regards fighters with records and other martial artists, you could perhaps say that.

As regards armchair critics rubbishing famous achievers, no.

[GlennR]

Apples and oranges. Tyson retired with a pro record of 50-6-0. Remind me what Bruce's record was and name some notable people he fought.

And FYI it's "toe the line"

Honestly, try reading the context of the conversation.

My point was that it becomes fashionable to bash people with any fame, regardless of their achievements, and used Tyson as an example.

[Bacon]

Honestly, try reading the context of the conversation.

My point was that it becomes fashionable to bash people with any fame, regardless of their achievements, and used Tyson as an example.

Bruce had no achievements as a fighter.

[GlennR]

Bruce had no achievements as a fighter.

Thanks Sherlock!!

[Bacon]

Thanks Sherlock!!

Good then I expect you see why Tyson/Lee is a terrible comparison.

[GlennR]

Good then I expect you see why Tyson/Lee is a terrible comparison.

Here you go then, a word that might help you

zeal·ot (zlt)
n.
1.
a. One who is zealous, especially excessively so.
b. A fanatically committed person.

Id suggest you with your anti BL rehetoric, and the anti-tyson mob, would have the above word in common

Both just a little bit too obsessed in making their point.

[LFJ]

For example Kimbo slice may have had plenty of street fighting experience. He beat a lot of big dudes but when taken into the ring he got his butt handed to him by people who fought skilled opponents on a regular basis. That's what happens. That's why even though he had verifiable proof of having fought those fights they don't matter for anything.

Was Kimbo a martial artist or did he have any real training at all during his street fighting days? I don't think so. We're not just talking about untrained street fighters who don't have sport fighting records, but trained martial artists who don't have such records yet are still fighters. If Bruce Lee had verifiable street fights it wouldn't put him and Kimbo in the same class. You can't say Bruce Lee was untrained.

Besides, the thing is you were saying Bruce Lee was an actor and not a fighter at all, based on the fact that he had no official record. So are you also saying Kimbo wasn't a fighter, even though he has verifiable street fights, just because it wasn't against trained opponents in an official setting? He may not have been a good fighter, because he was untrained, but he fought. Therefore he was a fighter.

Now someone like Bruce Lee was obviously well trained and highly skilled. But he's not a fighter because... he wasn't a sport fighting athlete and there's no footage of his street fights?

[Kellen Bassette]

I know a lot of fighters with records and without; and some of the guys who have no record I'd put up against anyone. They are skilled MAs who have been street fighters, bouncers, fought unsanctioned matches, ect...I know some Kyokushin guys who are serious fighters, but couldn't really point to a record because their bouts are unsanctioned. I have no doubt they'd do fine against ranked kick boxers.

I'm not saying Bruce would have been the best sport fighter ever...but I have no doubt he would have done well in kick boxing or mma.

[Bacon]

Was Kimbo a martial artist or did he have any real training at all during his street fighting days? I don't think so.
Actually the training doesn't matter. It's the verifiability and the class of opponents faced.


We're not just talking about untrained street fighters who don't have sport fighting records, but trained martial artists who don't have such records yet are still fighters. If Bruce Lee had verifiable street fights it wouldn't put him and Kimbo in the same class. You can't say Bruce Lee was untrained.
Trained or not doesn't matter. Kimbo at least had verifiable proof of his fights in and out of the ring. He got his arse handed to him when he had to face any real opponent but he still has more fighting credibility than Bruce because it's verifiable.


Besides, the thing is you were saying Bruce Lee was an actor and not a fighter at all, based on the fact that he had no official record. So are you also saying Kimbo wasn't a fighter, even though he has verifiable street fights, just because it wasn't against trained opponents in an official setting? He may not have been a good fighter, because he was untrained, but he fought. Therefore he was a fighter.
Kimbo was and is a fighter, just not a very good one. Although he now has a 6-0 record in pro boxing so maybe he just doesn't fair so well in a less restricted fighting environment.


Now someone like Bruce Lee was obviously well trained and highly skilled. But he's not a fighter because... he wasn't a sport fighting athlete and there's no footage of his street fights?
It's about verifiability of fights to actually say that they happened and having those fights against high quality opponents to prove your skill level. It doesn't even necessarily mean sport fighting either. Technically the old Vale Tudo wasn't sport fighting. You can argue as to whether the very limited ruleset of the UFC amounted to sport fighting but Kimbo's videos amount to proof of fights.


It works like this.
Training? Irrelevant.

Verifiable fights? -> yes -> fighter

Were those fights against anyone decent? -> YES -> did they whoop you -> yes -> fighter just not a very good one
no -> you're a good fighter
-> NO -> not a very good fighter

[LFJ]

Fight? -> Yes -> Fighter .


Verifiable fights? -> Yes -> Fights verified
Verifiable fights? -> No -> Fights unverified

Unverifiable fights ≠ Fighter status: negative
Unverifiable fights = Fighter status: indeterminate

Official record or video footage ≠ Only valid form of evidence

[Bacon]

Fight? -> Yes -> Fighter .


Verifiable fights? -> Yes -> Fights verified
Verifiable fights? -> No -> Fights unverified

Unverifiable fights ≠ Fighter status: negative
Unverifiable fights = Fighter status: indeterminate

Official record or video footage ≠ Only valid form of evidence

You're flat out wrong. Otherwise you should meet my friend Bob. He's been in a million street fights and won them all. Clearly he is the uber mensch.

The point is it's just like me saying I have a tyrannosaurus in my back yard. Without verification anyone in their right mind will call bull**** on it. It's inadmissable as fact. It is essentially the same as it being made up. And that doesn't even address the quality of opponents issue.


Actually realistically this makes the two seven year olds I saw scrapping in the school yard fighters in the same level as Bruce... Just not as famous.

And official record or video is the only form of evidence. Period. Anything else is hearsay, garbage, equivalent to made up fairy tales.

[LFJ]

The point is it's just like me saying I have a tyrannosaurus in my back yard. Without verification anyone in their right mind will call bull**** on it. It's inadmissable as fact. It is essentially the same as it being made up. And that doesn't even address the quality of opponents issue.

The question to ask is whether or not something is likely to be true. If you say you have a T-Rex in your backyard, it's not likely to be true because no T-Rex has ever been found living.

However, if you say you have a dog in your backyard, I'd generally be inclined to believe you unless there is some reason for you to be lying about it. I could also go investigate and discover things like dog food in your house, dog turds in the grass, etc., which would lead to a reasonable belief that you in fact own a dog, even without having ever seen it.

In the case of whether Bruce Lee ever fought, we have things like witness testimony from a number of folks who have no apparent reason to be making it up, and other bits of evidence mentioned throughout the course of this thread, which can lead to a reasonable belief that he actually fought, even without video footage or official records.

To claim as fact that Bruce Lee never fought, you have to have more than the fact that he didn't have an official fight record. At best you can only say his fighter status is indeterminate, or that he is found "not guilty" of being a fighter, but that doesn't make him "innocent" and his fighter status negative.


Actually realistically this makes the two seven year olds I saw scrapping in the school yard fighters in the same level as Bruce... Just not as famous.

You already dismissed the level of training argument I brought up. If they fight, they're little fighters, but obviously not on the same level as a highly trained adult martial artist.

[Bacon]

The question to ask is whether or not something is likely to be true. If you say you have a T-Rex in your backyard, it's not likely to be true because no T-Rex has ever been found living.

However, if you say you have a dog in your backyard, I'd generally be inclined to believe you unless there is some reason for you to be lying about it. I could also go investigate and discover things like dog food in your house, dog turds in the grass, etc., which would lead to a reasonable belief that you in fact own a dog, even without having ever seen it.
And since there's ZERO evidence is it likely that Bruce Lee ever fought? At best it's 50/50.


In the case of whether Bruce Lee ever fought, we have things like witness testimony from a number of folks who have no apparent reason to be making it up, and other bits of evidence mentioned throughout the course of this thread, which can lead to a reasonable belief that he actually fought, even without video footage or official records.
Well innthe case of folks who trained with him it gives credence to their training. In the case of his family it gives credence to their father's memory and makes them feel more important. And for most other folks it just makes them feel special. If you had literally a large crowd of people who could verify it then you'd be talking credible testimony.


To claim as fact that Bruce Lee never fought, you have to have more than the fact that he didn't have an official fight record. At best you can only say his fighter status is indeterminate, or that he is found "not guilty" of being a fighter, but that doesn't make him "innocent" and his fighter status negative.
It may as well. In this area indeterminate is equivalent to not being a fighter. I'm not claiming he never fought. I'm claiming that there's no credible evidence that he did, which is equivalent in the area of fighting.


You already dismissed the level of training argument I brought up. If they fight, they're little fighters, but obviously not on the same level as a highly trained adult martial artist.

Well guess what? I never saw those kids. They don't exist. So yes I dismissed the level of training argument but I also demonstrated that non-verifiable in this case equates to non-existent.

And what does it matter to you anyway to try proving that a guy who would have been at best a second or third rate fighter IF he did fight... Actually fought?

[Bacon]

And I should also point out that the only way to gauge someone's skill level is in relation to the people they fight. So the best you get out of this is..

Did Bruce fight? At best it's a maybe
Supposing he did he fight anyone of quality? No
Therefore his skills are still suspect and he is not a fighter or even if he were he could not claim to be a very good one.

[GlennR]

And I should also point out that the only way to gauge someone's skill level is in relation to the people they fight. So the best you get out of this is..


Well it all about opinion. Ill bring up Tyson again. He is derided by many many of the experts for having fought in the, or one of, weakest periods of heavyweight boxing ever.
So by your logic, as he hasnt fought anyone of a high level he was no good??


Did Bruce fight? At best it's a maybe
Supposing he did he fight anyone of quality? No
Therefore his skills are still suspect and he is not a fighter or even if he were he could not claim to be a very good one.

And exactly the same case can be made for Tyson in the eyes of many.... see how your argument is flawed

Now, if you really want to pursue your anti BL crusade, why dont you reinvigorate this treasure

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-4700.html

[LFJ]

And since there's ZERO evidence is it likely that Bruce Lee ever fought? At best it's 50/50.

Official records and video footage is not the only type of valid evidence, although it's the only type you'll accept.


Well innthe case of folks who trained with him it gives credence to their training.

They would lie about seeing Bruce Lee fight to convince themselves that their training is true? I don't find that likely at all. Bruce Lee even encouraged in his students to find what works. Making up a lie to give credence to their training goes against the entire training philosophy.


In this area indeterminate is equivalent to not being a fighter. I'm not claiming he never fought. I'm claiming that there's no credible evidence that he did, which is equivalent in the area of fighting.

So you just contradicted yourself in the same breath. Indeterminate is never equivalent to negative. And there is enough evidence to justify a rational belief that he fought, without claiming it as fact.


I also demonstrated that non-verifiable in this case equates to non-existent.

You didn't really demonstrate anything. Non-verifiable is only enough for a "not guilty" verdict. Declaring innocence takes more.


And what does it matter to you anyway to try proving that a guy who would have been at best a second or third rate fighter IF he did fight... Actually fought?

Already answered you. I don't really care about Bruce Lee. I just find your belief to be irrational, and it relates to other fighters without official records. I could witness with my own eyes and know for a fact that someone is a fighter, but without an official record or video footage you say it's not only unverifiable, but even non-existent. So what the hell would I have seen? Would I have been hallucinating?

You seem to have something to gain from saying Bruce Lee wasn't a fighter, or that he would have been at best a 2nd or 3rd rate fighter. Two claims you have no evidence for, but are just saying to make yourself sound skillful and knowledgable.

[LFJ]

@Bacon

What's your view on Hawkins Cheung's witness testimony?

[Bacon]

Well it all about opinion. Ill bring up Tyson again. He is derided by many many of the experts for having fought in the, or one of, weakest periods of heavyweight boxing ever.
So by your logic, as he hasnt fought anyone of a high level he was no good??

And exactly the same case can be made for Tyson in the eyes of many.... see how your argument is flawed

Tyson was fighting at a pro level. That's not a good comparison with someone for who there is only hearsay testimony about them fighting basically unskilled or very low level opponents.


Now, if you really want to pursue your anti BL crusade, why dont you reinvigorate this treasure

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-4700.html

It has nothing to do with being anti-Bruce Lee. If this argument was about another person with the same lack of evidence for their fighting skill I'd be making the same argument.


Official records and video footage is not the only type of valid evidence, although it's the only type you'll accept.
Either that or testimony by a very large group of unbiased witnesses. The point is valid corroboration. If you have a video we can clearly see. If you have a fight record you have a commission whose credibility and integrity can be referred to. If you have a large group of unbiased people you have corroboration of unbiased testimony. What you have otherwise is hearsay.


They would lie about seeing Bruce Lee fight to convince themselves that their training is true? I don't find that likely at all. Bruce Lee even encouraged in his students to find what works. Making up a lie to give credence to their training goes against the entire training philosophy.
It's called cognitive dissonance. Human beings engage in it all the time.


So you just contradicted yourself in the same breath. Indeterminate is never equivalent to negative. And there is enough evidence to justify a rational belief that he fought, without claiming it as fact.
In this case it is. Hearsay evidence that someone fought is equivalent to no evidence. It doesn't mean they didn't but it means that for all intents and purposes they may as well not have.


Already answered you. I don't really care about Bruce Lee. I just find your belief to be irrational, and it relates to other fighters without official records. I could witness with my own eyes and know for a fact that someone is a fighter, but without an official record or video footage you say it's not only unverifiable, but even non-existent. So what the hell would I have seen? Would I have been hallucinating?
No you could witness that someone is fightING. For someone to be a fighter they must have evidence of fighting opponents regularly. And I witnessed a man float off the round the other day. Clearly I know that he is magic :rolleyes:


You seem to have something to gain from saying Bruce Lee wasn't a fighter, or that he would have been at best a 2nd or 3rd rate fighter. Two claims you have no evidence for, but are just saying to make yourself sound skillful and knowledgable.

I said at best he would've been a second or third rate fighter because he never fought anyone of any real skill and there were plenty he could've fought against. The point has nothing to do with Bruce. It has to do with the rigors of evidence and the point is there is none for any fights from Bruce so anyone saying that he was a fighter let alone a good one is an idiot.



What's your view on Hawkins Cheung's witness testimony?

One possibly credible witness with a possible bias and no other real supporting evidence to prove that Bruce fought some unskilled or low skilled opponents. Give me a break.

[Kellen Bassette]

No you could witness that someone is fightING. For someone to be a fighter they must have evidence of fighting opponents regularly. And I witnessed a man float off the round the other day. Clearly I know that he is magic :rolleyes:



So someone who engages in fighting is not a fighter.
That is the stupidest thing I've read all day. Impressive.

[LFJ]

But the many witnesses are only biased in your opinion– not by any actual evidence that they are biased, but apparently because to agree that they are unbiased, honest people simply reporting what they saw, rather than straight lying, would count as valid corroboration to a point you are biased against.

If you personally witnessed someone fighting regularly, sometimes unsuccessfully but many times not especially as they gained experience, yet they had no official record, not being a sport fighting athlete, could I tell you you were hallucinating or just lying because there is no video footage or official record to convince me?

I may be justified in disbelieving you, but I would have no justification in calling you a liar or saying that person is in fact not a fighter. Your testimony along with that of many others would all lead to a rational acceptance of the claim. Although such belief should always be tentative and not touted as fact, it would be reasonable nonetheless, unless you all clearly had some reason to not just stretch the truth of how good this individual was, but to even lie about having ever witnessed him fight... which just seems like a silly thing for so many people to do.

[LFJ]

So someone who engages in fighting is not a fighter.
That is the stupidest thing I've read all day. Impressive.

That's what I'm saying. Even if there is no evidence to convince him, it would still be fact in reality. So saying that person is not a fighter because there is no evidence to show him would be factually incorrect, even if the disbelief is justified. Don't care about this "unverifiable might as well be a negative". It's still factually incorrect. He's just plain wrong.

[Bacon]

But the many witnesses are only biased in your opinion– not by any actual evidence that they are biased, but apparently because to agree that they are unbiased, honest people simply reporting what they saw, rather than straight lying, would count as valid corroboration to a point you are biased against.
If they were people without possibility of bias such as a large crowd at an organized fight which happened to not be recorded or taped, then their corroboration can be accepted with little question. When you have a bunch of people where there is possibility, not even necessarily proof of bias then there is doubt.


If you personally witnessed someone fighting regularly, sometimes unsuccessfully but many times not especially as they gained experience, yet they had no official record, not being a sport fighting athlete, could I tell you you were hallucinating or just lying because there is no video footage or official record to convince me?
No but you couldn't verify anything you're saying. What may or may not have happened is not the issue. Evidence is the issue. Without it nothing an individual says means squat.


I may be justified in disbelieving you, but I would have no justification in calling you a liar or saying that person is in fact not a fighter. Your testimony along with that of many others would all lead to a rational acceptance of the claim. Although such belief should always be tentative and not touted as fact, it would be reasonable nonetheless, unless you all clearly had some reason to not just stretch the truth of how good this individual was, but to even lie about having ever witnessed him fight... which just seems like a silly thing for so many people to do.

You would be justified in saying the person is not a fighter for there is no evidence.

There is no doubt as to who is a fighter and who is not based on evidence presented. There is no doubt about who is a good fighter based on the class of opponents they face. Again at best, if we assume, and it is an assumption, that Bruce did engage in unrecorded fights he still didn't fight anyone of worth. At best you can argue that he is a crap fighter.

[LFJ]

When you have a bunch of people where there is possibility, not even necessarily proof of bias then there is doubt.

Doubt is all you can have.


No but you couldn't verify anything you're saying. What may or may not have happened is not the issue. Evidence is the issue. Without it nothing an individual says means squat.

Doesn't change reality, and that is the issue if you're making claims about reality.


You would be justified in saying the person is not a fighter for there is no evidence.

You can conclude a "not guilty" of being a fighter verdict, but will not have proven "innocence".

[Bacon]

Doubt is all you can have.
I repeat:
There is no doubt as to who is a fighter and who is not based on evidence presented. There is no doubt about who is a good fighter based on the class of opponents they face. Again at best, if we assume, and it is an assumption, that Bruce did engage in unrecorded fights he still didn't fight anyone of worth. At best you can argue that he is a crap fighter.


Doesn't change reality, and that is the issue if you're making claims about reality.
Reality is what is proven. The argument you're making is the same as people make about God, or aliens, or the Loch Ness monster. The whole "but I've seen him and you can't disprove that he doesn't exist" is an intellectually poor man's argument. Do they exist? Likely not but unlike in the other cases where things can exist in yes, no, and maybe, in this case maybe is equivalent to 'no.' You're a fighter and can prove it, or for all intents and purposes you're not.


You can conclude a "not guilty" of being a fighter verdict, but will not have proven "innocence".
The second part is a load of garbage. If you cannot prove someone is a fighter then they, for all intents and purposes, are not a fighter.

[JPinAZ]

Seriously, you guys are STILL arguing about whether or not Bruce was a fighter?!?
Fighter, not-a-fighter - what does it matter today? It doesn't. But either way, living in someone else's past does not help anyone's kung fu and this really has little to do with wing chun at this point.
Besides the fact that he passed away almost 40 years ago, the pi55ing match is getting real boring - let it go already.

[anerlich]

I repeat:

Why?


Seriously, you guys are STILL arguing about whether or not Bruce was a fighter?!?
Fighter, not-a-fighter - what does it matter today? It doesn't. But either way, living in someone else's past does not help anyone's kung fu and this really has little to do with wing chun at this point.
Besides the fact that he passed away almost 40 years ago, the pi55ing match is getting real boring - let it go already.

What he said.

[Bacon]

Because he clearly didn't get it the first time

[wtxs]

Because he clearly didn't get it the first time

That is the sorriest excuse of keeping the ****ing contest rolling ...like an bad nightmare of having subject to and never ending chain punching video, and you ran out of popcorn and beer. :eek:

[mun hung]

"yes, he was"

"no, he wasn't"

"yes, he was"

"no, he wasn't"

I've been a member of this forum for 13 years and it never changes...ever! There are always big mouth trolls talking, talking, talking, who probably can't fight a lick, but just love debating on the internet. It's just stupid.

Back to training for me.

[LFJ]

Reality is what is proven.

Reality is the state of things as they actually exist. Whether it is proven or even hypothesized has no bearing on the way it actually exists.


If you cannot prove someone is a fighter then they, for all intents and purposes, are not a fighter.

Your intents and purposes don't change the facts of reality. You're justified in not accepting it without what you deem sufficient evidence, but you'd be wrong in concluding something at odds with reality because you have no proof of it.

In the case of Bruce Lee, I find there's enough reasonable evidence to rationally accept that he fought. But that acceptance is tentative and not touted as fact, and it makes no difference ultimately.

I'm an agnostic atheist, by the way.

Oh, and Bacon, I wonder if your WC sifu, MT trainer, or MMA coaches all have official records against high class fighters. What are they? If not, why do you learn to fight from non-fighters or at best crap fighters?

[sihing]

Reality is the state of things as they actually exist. Whether it is proven or even hypothesized has no bearing on the way it actually exists.



Your intents and purposes don't change the facts of reality. You're justified in not accepting it without what you deem sufficient evidence, but you'd be wrong in concluding something at odds with reality because you have no proof of it.

In the case of Bruce Lee, I find there's enough reasonable evidence to rationally accept that he fought. But that acceptance is tentative and not touted as fact, and it makes no difference ultimately.

I'm an agnostic atheist, by the way.

Oh, and Bacon, I wonder if your WC sifu, MT trainer, or MMA coaches all have official records against high class fighters. What are they? If not, why do you learn to fight from non-fighters or at best crap fighters?

Good points. Reality is not based on the evidence, Science does not have all the answers to the reality in all the existence, they still investigate, test, experiment and so forth, if they had the answers to all things they wouldn't be doing that, but still there are questions, and the reality exists, even though science has no answers to those questions.

Bruce yes he could fight, most definetly, it was his choice to do so publicly in comps, he choose not to, that's his decision, one can choose to believe what they want, it still doesn't change the reality. As to him being the top dog, no one is, all can lose at anytime, so mute point, and know one is saying he was.

J

[LaterthanNever]

Well..

I trained with Jesse(Glover)..RIP friend.

Bruce did in fact fight..both on the street as well as in predetermined matches.

And yeah..Jesse was there for at least one of them(we talked about it after training just before we went to eat at the local noodle house around the corner from where we trained in Seattle).

Not all fights that someone is in are televised for the world to see you know? :rolleyes:

When I had the pleasure of meeting Linda Lee-Emery(Bruces' widow) and Taky Kimura at Jesses funeral in July of this year. They didn't say "oh..let me tell you about the time Bruce fought so and so". For that matter, neither did Leroy Garcia who was also present.

"Besides the fact that he passed away almost 40 years ago, the pi55ing match is getting real boring - let it go already. "

Well said JPinAZ! Why *IS* this being bantered to death 40 years later? Does someone have to have 100 televised matches to meet someones artificial standard of them being a "fighter"?


"Did Bruce fight? At best it's a maybe
Supposing he did he fight anyone of quality? No
Therefore his skills are still suspect and he is not a fighter or even if he were he could not claim to be a very good one. "

If Bruce were still alive and teaching/training, would you fight him? Noone of *quality*?? Would you fight Northern Shaolin Master Wong Jack Man? He did! And a MAYBE? He had to leave Hong Kong because he could not STOP getting into fights! Oh that's right..he didn't fight Kimbo Slice..so he couldn't be verified or that good?! Unreal man!! >:(

"He was an actor not a fighter".

So I guess Chuck Norris was an actor not a fighter? I guess so was Segal who also appeared in movies! Same applies to Tony Danza(who I believe was an actual prize fighter). But Adam West who played Batman on the TV series? Man..that dude was a fighter thru and thru. Just a cold blooded killer. LOL


"There is no doubt as to who is a fighter and who is not based on evidence presented. "

This is not DNA or Forensic science. Evidence according to whose standard I might ask? Does it mean that Muhammed Ali was not a fighter since he was a boxer and after all..boxing has rules(no groin kicks, no kidney punches,etc.) and not the same as an all out brawl?(ie: a guy being mugged for his wallet and if he doesn't give it to the thug then he is shot dead). Must also mean that Randy Couture is not a "fighter" since MMA also has rules like boxing and it wasn't as much of a "fight" as the mugging I just listed? Ridiculous.



"There is no doubt about who is a good fighter based on the class of opponents they face. Again at best, if we assume, and it is an assumption, that Bruce did engage in unrecorded fights he still didn't fight anyone of worth. At best you can argue that he is a crap fighter."

I "assume" you are a sh-t talker, trouble maker and other things which I won't mention on here ok? Bacon, I'd suggest you take up flyfishing or some other hobby and stop stooping to the level of trash talking a dead man! (who I'm pretty positive would have wiped the floor with you in an actual fight). And class of of opponents? Interesting. Grandmaster Joon Rhee said in an interview that he would "never fight Bruce" and Chuck Norris said the same thing(or words to that effect). Oh..I forgot..neither Rhee or Norris were "quality" right?

Who did you ever fight professionally Bacon? Inquiring martial artists want to know!

[LaterthanNever]

Oops..

"I trained with Jesse(Glover)..RIP friend"

an important clarification:

I did not study *WITH* Jesse. I meant to say he was my instructor! Important difference.

And if Bruce was not a "fighter" according to Newtons 1st,2nd and 3rd laws of motion which is the irrefutable law of proof which Bacon requests..

It doesn't matter..

Bruce was most definitely..a MARTIAL ARTIST!!

[k gledhill]

By Shannon Lee...the man, the myth, the real person...great shot.

[Kellen Bassette]

Lol...awesome pic...:p

[k gledhill]

Lol...awesome pic...:p

.....after reading posts here maybe ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Is Donny Yen a Fighter? does he really practice martial arts? Is Jet Li a fighter? These men are alive...But at the end of the day they are movie stars and we are not...Simply put it this way. if Bruce Lee was a fighter today...an alive...guranteed he wouldnt be going into the octagon or MMA ring...Hell have any renown martial arts actors done MMA? or Cage fighting like Wesley Snipes, Van Damme, Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris!!!

Its a Mute argument at the end of the day....Pure fantasy FU...

Basically its akin to fantasy football!

[JPinAZ]

Actually, Chuck Norris won a lot of compititions before he went into acting - It's what got him into acting.

And it's 'moot' point. You've been getting that wrong all day too ;)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moot%20point

[LaterthanNever]

"Simply put it this way. if Bruce Lee was a fighter today...an alive...guranteed he wouldnt be going into the octagon or MMA ring...Hell have any renown martial arts actors done MMA?"

Guaranteed? So you speak for a dead man?

I asked Jesse once what he thinks about all of these people who post comments and even write articles in the magazines about "What would Bruce be doing if he were still alive?". He rolled his eyes and said "Who the hell knows!?"

Last I checked..Bruce is going to dead for a long, long time :rolleyes:

"Hell have any renown martial arts actors done MMA?"

So there we have it folks..MMA is THE standard of if someone is a figher or not in their eyes.

[anerlich]

Its a Mute argument

Would have been much better if the whole thread was mute, but I think you meant a MOOT argument.


Actually, Chuck Norris won a lot of competitions before he went into acting - It's what got him into acting.

Yup.


Simply put it this way. if Bruce Lee was a fighter today...an alive...guranteed he wouldnt be going into the octagon or MMA ring

If he were alive he would have been pushing 70, you idiot. Of course he wouldn't be ring fighting.

Richard Norton is an 8th dan in Zen Do Kai, 5th Dan in Goju and a 4th degree BJJ black belt and continues to be a highly skilled practicing martial artist:

"Norton is in constant demand for seminars all over the world, covering such topics as street defense, martial arts weapons drills, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and mixed martial arts. His 15 years experience as a Personal Body Guard for some of Rock and Roll's greats finds Richard in particular demand for teaching the realities of real life street defense, focusing on aspects such as adrenal dump, stress control and pre-emptive strikes.

In Sept 2007, Norton released a two-disc DVD set on Black Belt Digital Video called 'Black Belt training Complexes'. The DVDs show Norton executing some very fast and accurate examples of his skill, and some additional seminar footage is also included. The 3 plus hours of training drills and information focus on the development of explosive speed, power and continuity of movement, with in depth explanation of the various principles one needs to understand to develop incredible speed, regardless of their particular style or discipline."

Go to a seminar and check him out. For a sixty year old, he is amazingly good and amazingly fast. And has practical knowledge and experience that outstrips everyone on this forum several dozen times.

Remember most of these guys were well past their fighting prime when MMA came on the scene. Also, if they're making a good living from movies, they aren't going to jump in the ring to settle arguments between internet LARPers like yourself and Bacon.


"Hell have any renown martial arts actors done MMA?"

Randy Couture has made around ten films including the Expendables 1 & 2.

Maybe do a little research (or even try thinking) before you post next time.

[LaterthanNever]

Randy Couture has made around ten films including the Expendables 1 & 2"

That does it!! Call the cops!! Report him! He's practicing as a fighter without "scientific evidence"! There must be empirical evidence which after careful scientific calculation by an independent non biased council of scientists, determines he is a "fighter"(There must be at least 30% of the board of this council to be professionals from the NIST(national institute for standards and technology).

Better yet, write a letter to Mr. Coture and call him out and tell him he is now effectively stripped of his "fighter" title since he appeared in a movie.

[Kellen Bassette]

Randy Couture has made around ten films including the Expendables 1 & 2.

Maybe do a little research (or even try thinking) before you post next time.

I would think Cung Le would be an obvious addition to the list of MMA fighters/actors.

[anerlich]

I would think Cung Le would be an obvious addition to the list of MMA fighters/actors.

Agree 100%.

[k gledhill]

UFC 155 Wineland v Pickett , Joe Rogan praising Wineland for throwing , I quote " Wing chun /Bruce lee type punches" to dominate and win the fight. Wineland had an upright chin up VT like stance using movement and angling to evade Pickett, unlike a boxer style (pickett).

[Kenobi]

Anybody seen this interview excerpt from Bob Wall, post# 126? Check out the part where World Champions were mentioned losing to Bruce Lee. See all the names, interesting. This must be an interview done long time ago when Bob was just spilling the beans and didn't care for the implications this could cause.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f44/bruce-lee-unbeatable-street-fighter-video-1135845/index13.html


Interviewer: We know Bruce was an excellent screen fighter, but he could REALLY fight?

Bob Wall: "Let's get something straight, Bruce Lee was the real deal. I know alot of people think he was only good on the screen but they are wrong. Dead wrong! Many people have already had found out the hard way just how wrong they were!"

Interviewer: How did he train to be such a competent fighter?

Bob Wall: "You have got to remember where Bruce came from. He fought constantly as a teenager in Hong Kong. He used to be in a gang, so he was quite used to fighting. I remember talking to his family when we were filming Enter the Dragon in Hong Kong, and they said Bruce would sometimes come home all bloody, and they thought he was going to die, only to find out the blood came from the guy he had just beat up! Oh, Bruce lost his share of fights too, and this is one reason he became so intent on taking up a martial art. Because if you can't fight well, it could get you killed. One day he wondered what would happen if he was caught without his gang, and his parents took him to Yip Man, a well known Wing Chun instructor in Hong Kong. A few years later, Bruce's parents were being contacted by the Hong Kong police so often for fighting, they said if he gets caught one more time, he's going to jail.
This caused his parents to send him to America and start a new life here.
Moving ahead many years later, Bruce came up with the idea to spar full contact making the training as real as possible.
He fought with anyone that was willing. I've fought with Bruce myself a number of times, and had witnessed or had heard of many sparring sessions not just with other martial artists, but with champion Karate fighters, such as Louis Delgado, Skipper Mullins, Jim Kelly, Pat Burleson, Chuck Norris, Allen Steen and a few others. You have got to understand where these guys had come from in terms of practical self defense. While some came from the streets as Mullins and Steen had, most of these guys were used to fighting within the confines of a ring, so what Bruce was doing was a real wake up call for them."

Interviewer: What do you mean wake up call?

Bob Wall: "Well, it's like this...all great fighters have the same make-up in terms of intensity, commitment, will, drive and of course talent. Now, you have to remember that the type of fighting most Karate champions were used to, had rules and restrictions. It was SUPPOSED to be no contact to light contact, but people were always getting hurt, some quite badly, so they were used to contact. And even though many of these guys were really tough, I mean REALLY tough, and could take it as well as dish it out, they weren't prepared for Bruce.
Just the look on their faces was a sight to behold when Bruce would just move in and shut them down. They were used to trading punches and kicks with other fast and powerful opponents, and scoring on them frequently. You know, more evenly matched. I know it was hard for me to deal with the frustration when sparring with Bruce, and I know it was exceptionally hard for alot of them.
Especially since Bruce never fought professionally."


Interviewer: It must have been embarrassing for some of these guys.

Bob Wall: "Think about it this way...many of these guys were WORLD CHAMPIONS. They had faced and defeated the best in the business accross the globe. They are proud fighters. Who wouldn't be humiliated losing to a guy who has not fought professionally, and has no rank or certification to boot? It is my opinion that losing to Bruce in some ways was more devastating than losing a title fight. At least in a title fight, you know your opponent worked his butt off to get there, and it took a great deal of time. Many years of hard work, and paying your dues. Then you fight this little 140 pound guy and he just cleans your clock."

Interviewer: Can you really call them fights? I mean, sparring isn't really fighting is it?

Wall: "YOU tell these guys they weren't real fights. It was **** brutal!
In fact, most of these guys have never taken that kind of punishment before, but they sure learned the difference between what they were used to, and what they were learning from Bruce!

Interviewer: Were there any rules, or did you really try and hurt each other?

Bob Wall: "Well, we certainly didn't want to see anyone get hurt, that's just an inevitability sometimes. And no, the only rule was no following through with joint locks. If we did follow through, reconstructive surgery would be needed.

Interviewer So Bruce fought with grapplers too?

Bob Wall: "Bruce fought with EVERYBODY! Anyone who wanted to spar was welcome. We had people from every type of combat imaginable from punchers and kickers, to wrestlers, boxers, and everyone in between. Bruce loved to train, and we loved to train too. The list of people who worked with Bruce at one point in his life or another, reads like a who's who in the martial arts community.
I want you to understand that it wasn't like Bruce came in and kicked everyone's butt, and was all high and mighty. It's just that Bruce could pick things up very quickly, and adapt what he learned into his personal way of fighting almost immediately. Now, don't get me wrong, Bruce was learning right along with the rest of us, and I'm sure he would be the first to admit that.
He once told me that if you ever think you've learned everything, your dead in the water. It just seemed to us that Bruce was alot ****her down the path to self mastery than any of the other people in the martial arts at that time.



Enjoy!

[Kellen Bassette]

UFC 155 Wineland v Pickett , Joe Rogan praising Wineland for throwing , I quote " Wing chun /Bruce lee type punches" to dominate and win the fight. Wineland had an upright chin up VT like stance using movement and angling to evade Pickett, unlike a boxer style (pickett).

I still don't like Rogan....:mad:

[Frost]

UFC 155 Wineland v Pickett , Joe Rogan praising Wineland for throwing , I quote " Wing chun /Bruce lee type punches" to dominate and win the fight. Wineland had an upright chin up VT like stance using movement and angling to evade Pickett, unlike a boxer style (pickett).

and has never set foot in a wing chun school, and dropped picket twice with overhand rights coming over the top on his left hook, not exactly a wing chun technique lol

[k gledhill]

I still don't like Rogan....:mad:

You don't like high pitched yelling, from a guy who looks like he may explode any second ? ; )