wing chun's internal benefits

[shaolin_allan]

Hey everyone for the people with disabilities or illnesses who practice kung fu, do you believe wing chun can offer the same health benefits as styles such as tai chi? if you do/don't think this why? Thank you to all the posters with info to benefit the thread in advance.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that all movement is of benefit. Having said that I believe that Wing Chun can be of great benefit to those with disabilities if done correctly. However there are other arts which are of more benefit for health specific methods. For example, Xing Yi which has five main fists with each fist corresponding to a specific organ.

However, Chi Gung exercises done with or without Wing Chun can be of benefit.

So you know where I am coming from:

I have had back surgery due to herniation of the spine. I also have rheumatoid arthritis and more herniation's in my spine. I also have diabetes which is uncontrolled. I am what some would refer to as a brittle diabetic and I have stage one hypertension. I was also diagnosed with melanoma about 4 years ago too. In addition to this I also broke my right shoulder in a motorcycle accident some years ago.

In addition to my health challenges I have also had some street encounters which add to my body issues. I have been shot and stabbed a few times as well. I have a severed tendon in my left hand from being cut.

Now, what I know, from my personal experience, is that I am still able to move around and do so with out any accommodation. I teach Wing Chun and I also train Kuntao Silat and am just now exploring Xing Yi. I do feel that my Wing Chun has helped me to keep moving and enabled me to maintain a more active lifestyle.

I think that one of the main benefits is from the mindset one gains. The determination to forge onward to not accept defeat. To me this is one of the greatest benefits one can gain aside from physical attributes. I also know that my doctor is always surprised by how well I recover from different things and how well I am able to function even when things are not great with my health. When I am ill it usually does not last as long as it could. I am a very stubborn person and those who have trained with me can attest that I am not smart enough to stay down when I should. ;)

I believe that I owe much to my original Wing Chun teacher who laid a strong foundation and also incorporated various Chi Gung methods into our training.

[anerlich]

I basically agree with Dave, I think. The active lifestyle and persevering attitude that practising an MA cultivates is generally good for most people.

IMO the jury is out as to whether IMA really promotes good health and long life more than, say, weight training or circuit training.

Opinions vary but mine is that WC is not really an internal MA. Most WC styles' Qigong and similar, such as they are, have been bolted on from elsewhere. WC is a system of fighting, not health cultivation.

[shaolin_allan]

what you both said makes sense. wing chun itself offers the same health benefits as other kung fu styles because of the exercise and mindset it includes but it doesn't focus on health of organs. what about practicing sil lum tao as a qi gong form? my wc sifu always told me that was a great form to use for qi gong would you agree?

[Bacon]

I'd say if you've been practicing it before you got old the it's okay to maintain health. Keep in mind though that wing chun will not use the same range of motion or gentleness of movement. The first especially so with the knees.

Illnesses... It depends. Something like diabetes and you might be fine. Something more compromising to your body and I'd say no.

Disabilities... I'd have to say no. As much as some people may want to, if your body is significantly messed up you're going to be limited. For example I have a friend who has a foot which is messed up, I have anothe who cannot rotate her left wrist more than the tiniest amount due to tendon damage. Friend #1 would be unable to do yee gee kim yeung ma. Friend #2 would be unable to do any technique involving huen sao and would not be able to do it in the forms.

[Sihing73]

Morning,

I am not so sure that someone with a disability would be unable to do Wing Chun.
Certainly there would need to be adjustments or modifications to accomadate the person and their abilities. However, as Wing Chun is a conceptual art and is more than just a collection of techniques, I feel it is very possible to make adjustments to enable most, if not all, people of varying abilities to learn the art. I know that there are things I am unable to do anymore but I am still able to practive Wing Chun, and some people, those with especially low standards, may even say I am fairly good ;)

Silat which is an effective method of combat is reported to have been founded by someone with a club foot and one short arm. I think most would consider this to be a disability. :D

One person with a disability who is considered to be very good at Wing Chun that comes to mind is Phillip Bayer.

I think that it all comes down to how much a person wants to do something. If they really want to do it then a way can and will be found.

[anerlich]

my wc sifu always told me that was a great form to use for qi gong would you agree?

I'd have to hear his reasoning before I'd agree.

The lack of overall movement in the form and the elbows in posture restricting the full opening of the lungs tend IMO to be points against it.

And even if it were good for qigong, I remain sceptical that Qigong is necessarily better for health than other simpler, less esoteric, exercise regimens.

[Hendrik]

Hey everyone for the people with disabilities or illnesses who practice kung fu, do you believe wing chun can offer the same health benefits as styles such as tai chi? if you do/don't think this why? Thank you to all the posters with info to benefit the thread in advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a_3EkBteOk&feature=plcp

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't think Wing Chun has much in the way of health promotion except in the case that it keeps you from getting beat up. I have been involved in qigong and such, but I am not convinced that it is of benefit to one's health either. A good exercise regimen will benefit your health considerably if you do it regularly and with conviction.
There are ways where chi can be used in fighting, but not like most seem to think. Just yelling Chi or Ki as you punch, shove, pull or jerk, kick or whatever, will enhance the power of the blow, but I am not really convinced that it can be applied in other ways.

[anerlich]

I am not so sure that someone with a disability would be unable to do Wing Chun.


Nor am I. Over the years I've trained Wing Chun with guys with significant problems, including people with cerebral palsy, and a guy with only one deformed hand and issues with legs and feet too. The latter guy wrestled as well.

In Jiu Jitsu I know a guy who is legally blind but has competed and won at purple belt level. And there is Jean Jacques Machado, one of the best Jiu Jitsu guys in the world, who has only one functional hand.

MA training isn't going to help you grow back a missing limb like a salamander or restore your eyesight. It's not for anyone else to say what valid reasons a person with a disability may have for training, nor what they might get out of it.


some people, those with especially low standards, may even say I am fairly good

I have extremely low standards in some areas, but not WC ;); I'd agree with "some people" regarding your WC abilities.

[hobbs]

Hey everyone for the people with disabilities or illnesses who practice kung fu, do you believe wing chun can offer the same health benefits as styles such as tai chi? if you do/don't think this why? Thank you to all the posters with info to benefit the thread in advance.

GM Tsui Seung Tin used sil lim tao form to fight his cancer. The fist 3 wu sau & fook saus should take 45 minutes to do this & is a chi gong exercise as well as a wing chun disilpine.

[groovenugget]

seems to me there are as many methods of qigong as there are styles of gong fu. study the principles(healing and martial), stay with the practice and see where it takes you. agree with ron sieh and others who say they've seen karate guys perform at internal levels and taiji players perform at external levels.

[anerlich]

GM Tsui Seung Tin used sil lim tao form to fight his cancer. The fist 3 wu sau & fook saus should take 45 minutes to do this & is a chi gong exercise as well as a wing chun disilpine.

Was that the only treatment he undertook?

[Neeros]

I've learned that any style can be practiced as Chi Kung to build internal force, vitality, and mental clarity when it is practiced as Chi Kung, that is with the skills of Chi Kung such as to relax oneself completely, and enter into a Zen/Chan state of mind.

[AdrianK]

Disabilities... I'd have to say no. As much as some people may want to, if your body is significantly messed up you're going to be limited. For example I have a friend who has a foot which is messed up, I have anothe who cannot rotate her left wrist more than the tiniest amount due to tendon damage. Friend #1 would be unable to do yee gee kim yeung ma. Friend #2 would be unable to do any technique involving huen sao and would not be able to do it in the forms.

I remember hearing a story once about the person who invented Southern Dragon being physically disabled, so he compensated for that disability by changing his kung fu to suit his disability. Whether its even remotely true or even a common myth is irrelevant, its important to remember the point they were trying to make.

I think it was Cus D'Amato who once said the Peek-a-boo style of boxing was suited to punch-shy boxers. Thats not so much a physical or mental disability, more of a psychological weakness, but it suits the point.

Jean Jacques Machado is a world champion in grappling, with effectively only one hand.


Take your weakness and turn it into your strength. If your Wing Chun is a fixed method then unfortunately for you, fighting is dynamic and not rehearsed. What happens if you hurt your wrist in a fight? Does your Wing chun no longer work because you cannot huen sao?

What happens if you hurt your knee and can no longer do yee gee kim yeung ma? Is it time to quit Wing Chun?

Maybe you should consider that Wing Chun may be a collection of individual methods, and not a single (expansive) static idea.

[hobbs]

Was that the only treatment he undertook?

I dont know but there was a news article that he did SLT and it helped. I tried to find the article but couldnt.

[Vajramusti]

Will power plays it's role in adjustments.

Paul Lam was a student of Leung Sheung and was one of the earlier wing chun migrants to the UK.
He had polio as a a kid but compensated and developed his arms and arm motions quite well
and did very well against the best known student of a wing chun pioneer in the UK.

A wing chun person who became very famous in the movies supposedly had one foot slightly shorter than the other.

No one is perfect. Matter of degrees including will power.

[anerlich]

I dont know but there was a news article that he did SLT and it helped. I tried to find the article but couldnt.

I don't doubt that it probably did help, though more for the reasons that WC cultivates a healthy lifestyle and determination than any qigong magic.

Leaving aside the limited value of anecdotal evidence as scientific proof, any assertion that WC practice healed TST's cancer begs the question of why the WC practice didn't prevent the cancer in the first place.

I have a female training partner who is a breast cancer survivor, and trained and continues to train WC and BJJ both sides of the disease. She credits training with giving her strength and determination to succeed with her treatment.

All that aside, anyone ignoring the best medicine has to offer and going down a qigong-only path to cure something as serious as cancer is IMO a fool.

[groovenugget]

tsui sheung tin is known as the "king of siu nim tao". he lays out plain and simple instruction for proper practice and building up the "unconscious force". even if it only brings presence of mind and true relaxation, relaxation aids the immune function.

[Vajramusti]

tsui sheung tin is known as the "king of siu nim tao". he lays out plain and simple instruction for proper practice and building up the "unconscious force". even if it only brings presence of mind and true relaxation, relaxation aids the immune function.
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I do not think that there is any special or unique magic in TST's slt. Some martial arts properly practiced together with other life style changing things can help some people with some health problems.

[GlennR]

GM Tsui Seung Tin used sil lim tao form to fight his cancer. The fist 3 wu sau & fook saus should take 45 minutes to do this & is a chi gong exercise as well as a wing chun disilpine.

TST doesnt spend 45 minutes on that section of the SLT, or indeed the whole thing

[groovenugget]

absolutely, proper practice is the key. imo i would say there is nothing magical about internal practice-and true masters of "ima" would agree

[GlennR]

tsui sheung tin is known as the "king of siu nim tao". he lays out plain and simple instruction for proper practice and building up the "unconscious force". even if it only brings presence of mind and true relaxation, relaxation aids the immune function.

But, he combines that with a proper structure achieved through YGKM