"Fighting is Easy"

[MightyB]

In another thread people kept saying "fighting is easy" and then went on to justify TCMA practice as different and somehow better. This bothers me.

If fighting were easy, and TCMA practitioners can discount it as such, then you'd expect to see amazing TCMA fighters. But you don't. They're alluded to in mysterious ways, but you never see them. You could say that the masters feel no reason to boast, so you won't see them, but if it were easy like they say, then you'd at least see some brash todai out there kicking arse and taking names... but you don't.

Fighting isn't easy - if it was, then you wouldn't have TCMA or MA. Fighting's not easy and you have to know, understand, and breathe this thought if you want to truly understand your art. Fighting is hard, fighting is difficult, mastery of fighting is nearly impossible, but it's what you should be striving for if you want to be a master.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If fighting was easy then everyone and his sister would be a fighter.
If fighting was easier than TCMA then every person that trained a TCMA would be a great fighter.

[Jimbo]

IMO, it goes beyond a TCMA thing.

There are some (many) people who have difficulty fighting, or simply freeze up when the situation calls for them to fight out of necessity. So if fighting were as easy as a snap of the fingers, they should have no problem, either. Not everybody has the mindset or disposition to be a fighter, or even just to fight back when they need to. Then it wouldn't matter what type of training they had.

Of course, depending on the situation, almost anyone will fight, like if their children are being endangered, etc. The question then becomes, can they fight well, or effectively?

True, there are prodigies who can fight well almost from the womb. Such a person will be effective in most hand to hand situations, unless the odds are totally against them, regardless of the style they might learn. Or even if they receive no MA training at all. There are many examples of the latter.

[Scott R. Brown]

I think you missed the point.....

fighting is easy, its very easy.

Anyone can fight....its winning that is the hard part! Unless you are smart enough to only pick fights with people more inept than you are!

[wenshu]

Remember anyone can walk into a boxing or mma gym and just start kicking a$$ because boxing and mma are primitive and don't really take years of conditioning and training.

[hskwarrior]

Fighting isn't easy - if it was, then you wouldn't have TCMA or MA. Fighting's not easy and you have to know, understand, and breathe this thought if you want to truly understand your art. Fighting is hard, fighting is difficult, mastery of fighting is nearly impossible, but it's what you should be striving for if you want to be a master.

people who say fighting is easy most likely never had a real fight in their lives. no one is just gifted in fighting.

[David Jamieson]

I think what is meant is that it is not a difficult thing to understand.
It certainly isn't something that requires a lot of thought and it is as natural as taking a dump when it gets down to it.

Once you start applying a bunch of rules to how you are going to fight then yes, you can make it more difficult.

Fighting well isn't easy in that respect, but toddlers fight. It's natural.

[hskwarrior]

I think what is meant is that it is not a difficult thing to understand.

righ. doing it effectively is much harder than just understanding it.


Fighting well isn't easy in that respect, but toddlers fight. It's natural.

like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzR86l8QwsQ

[brothernumber9]

I think we can add a dimension to this discussion if we look at the proportionate number of the kind of people that make up a fair chunk of the student body in KF schools today, compared to the proportion of the kind of people that were in KF at the onset of popular MMA.

What I mean by this is that, (and I am projecting and assuming a bit but I think most will agree), a larger proportion of guys/gals that joined KF schools in the 80's and early 90's did so because they had an interest or affinity to fighting, or even just the idea of being able to fight, or be a badass or whatever. A lot of these kinds of people already had been in some fights in thier life, either on the street, or in school, clubs, against thier siblings, backyard boxing, etc.
In my opinion. These "fight" minded folks are the extreme minority in most KF schools now, more so than they were back then. The general model has changed, for various reasons, economic sustainability, increased marketing to health and holistic ideals, as well as an increased and less violent oriented marketing to parents and children. The "vein" of KF schools has shifted away from just self defense, fighting, and discipline.

I think a fair number, if not most of these kind of "fight" minded people, many of us on these boards included, would likely have joined an MMA school if it was as organized and spread out then, as it is now. At the onset of UFC, all "styles" were open to be represented and put to the test. Unfortunately "Kung Fu" as generic as it was categorized, did not show so well, although a few people with KF backgrounds have had some success, they didn't credit or wear the badge of "Kung Fu" (Cung Le, Felix Mitchell, Luke Cummo). I think Onassis is one of the only ones that come to mind that has openly credited his Hung Kuen background to a good part of his success.

I agree many traditional ideals of adhering solely to the parameters of such styles were exposed, particularly in the ground game. The global visibility of BJJ and it's effectiveness changed everything. A whole lot of these "fight" minded people that have come along after MMA's spread, have joined fight gyms instead of KF or other traditional labeled arts. With less "fight" minded folk in KF schools now, I believe the chances of a breakout "kung fu" fighter in MMA are even less than they were to begin with. Many of us who knew guys or gals that we assume would do well against some of these professional MMA fighters today are generally too old to jump in the cage, and most may even have solid careers and faimilies to support that make it too risky to fight even if they think they can still compete.

[hskwarrior]

What I mean by this is that, (and I am projecting and assuming a bit but I think most will agree), a larger proportion of guys/gals that joined KF schools in the 80's and early 90's did so because they had an interest or affinity to fighting, or even just the idea of being able to fight, or be a badass or whatever. A lot of these kinds of people already had been in some fights in thier life, either on the street, or in school, clubs, against thier siblings, backyard boxing, etc.

on point!


In my opinion. These "fight" minded folks are the extreme minority in most KF schools now, more so than they were back then. The general model has changed, for various reasons, economic sustainability, increased marketing to health and holistic ideals, as well as an increased and less violent oriented marketing to parents and children. The "vein" of KF schools has shifted away from just self defense, fighting, and discipline.

again, on point


I think a fair number, if not most of these kind of "fight" minded people, many of us on these boards included, would likely have joined an MMA school if it was as organized and spread out then, as it is now. At the onset of UFC, all "styles" were open to be represented and put to the test. Unfortunately "Kung Fu" as generic as it was categorized, did not show so well, although a few people with KF backgrounds have had some success, they didn't credit or wear the badge of "Kung Fu" (Cung Le, Felix Mitchell, Luke Cummo). I think Onassis is one of the only ones that come to mind that has openly credited his Hung Kuen background to a good part of his success.

I would never had joined an MMA gym back in the 80's when i first started hung sing choy lee fut. from day one, i was sparring and we did so every single day. we got good with our HSCLF because our sifu encouraged us to fight. at that time, the only realistic fighting one can do was get into a street fight.

I don't think i have ever stated HSCLF made me a better fighter. I BECAME a better fighter by getting into fights. I was taught to use what i wanted but become good with it. NOT EVEN MMA will make you a great fighter if YOU just can't fight.

[tungmojingjung]

In my experience we were always taught that our traditional Chinese martial arts was personal and not sport. Some have entered the area of entertaining sport and come to find out that there are adjustment that are essential when moving from a system of personal self preservation and sport or competition. On the personal side we practice with a intent that is practical and definitive and in sport we have to adjust to rules and regulations.

Real fighting is liken unto a brute beast, no rules and by any means necessary, this mentality is not welcomed in the sport arena. In TCMA we practice to maintain our health and to be able to protect ourselves and loved ones in dire circumstances, that's it point blank. Now others may have a different opinion but as I was told, "never let your right hand know what your left is doing", in others words conceal your skills until you have to use them and when you have to use them fight to win with a determined mind set.

[GeneChing]

Anyone can fight....its winning that is the hard part! Unless you are smart enough to only pick fights with people more inept than you are! Very true. You don't have to be a martial arts expert to be a bully. Quite the opposite, I would hope.


no one is just gifted in fighting. I know a gaggle of professional bouncers that would beg to differ. Many of my bouncer friends haven't studied any formal combat method. They're just huge dudes with attitude.

A factor we must always consider is that everyone here (I hope) is a practicing martial artist. That gives us all a pretty skewed view of the world, as I oft quip 'martial myopia'. As I've mentioned many times here, I do volunteer medical work at concerts and street gatherings; I specialize in managing combative patients, so I see more street fights than the average joe. And lemme tell ya, almost all of them involve combatants with no skill whatsoever. That's one of the fundamental issues I've always had with the ol' "won't work on the street" argument. You'd be amazed what kind of stupid crap works on the street because many street brawlers can't even throw a basic combo. We, as martial artists, tend to look at combat from a more critical, tactical perspective. We imagine the worse-case scenario - facing a trained fighter. I've been doing this street medicine for over a quarter century now and faced countless combative and belligerent patients. Only a few had any training whatsoever. Most all of them were easily restrained with very basic takedowns. There have been a few exceptions, of course, but for the most part, the population engaging in street fighting can fight - do fight - but don't win - at least not when they face me and my krew. ;)

[Robinhood]

It all depends on the context of easy,

Easy as it takes no training..

Easy as everyone naturally resists and literally fights back ..

Easy as if used that being efficient makes it easy.

If someone is efficient at doing something it always looks easy, and is easy for that person, it is only not easy when you have to use excess force to make something happen, which again boils down to skill level in MA.

So a good measure of easy, is to measure your physical output, if you need a lot of conditioning to apply yourself then you are not very efficient .

[sanjuro_ronin]

It seems people are confusing brawling with fighting, which is understandable.
BUT this is a MA forum and as such, it is SUPPOSE to cater to,*gasp* MA and MA relevant discussion and as such, for MA, fighting is a science.
Or at least it should be.

[MasterKiller]

Fighting is easy. 2 year olds do it instinctively.

Competing is not easy.


Know the difference.

[MightyB]

My Judo Coach suggested we go to local high schools and do demos for their wrestling teams in an attempt to get new students (off season training since Judo and wrestling are similar). I looked at him and said that if my buddy Dave and I do this, our game has to be top notch because only a big lion can walk into another's den. He said we'll be there to demo, I said I guarantee that we'll get challenged.
----
My buddy went to Brazil w/ his girlfriend (she's Brazilian) and she took him to a local BJJ gym down there. He's a Blue Belt here. Luckily he remembered some advice I gave to him a long time ago - I said you don't have to win, just don't get beat. Every white-blue- and purple in that place wanted a piece of him. They were all animals (in a good spirited way) and all were better than he's faced here. He fought to survive, not once did he get submitted but he never submitted anyone either - yet he EARNED their respect and the coach invited him to come back whenever he can and he has many new friends.
----
I spent about an hour last night working praying mantis self defense that I KNOW WORKS (because I've invested the time in it and have taken hard knocks) with guys at the local MMA gym. These are tough guys, wrestlers, BJJers, and Boxers. I've earned their respect because I only use kung fu that works or at least has the potential to work. I may not win because most of these guys are younger, and stronger, and in some cases - more hardened than me. But I have their respect.
----
You cannot earn respect doing flowery kung fu, relying on mysticism, doing forms, talking hours about theory, trying to use unproven techniques, using stupid chin na - we all know this. But we also can't assume Fighting is Easy - because it's not. Using technique against a resisting opponent is difficult, but you have to be able to do it. You don't have to win, you just have to be able to demonstrate it on someone who's not your student, in a spontaneous instance.

[MightyB]

I want to make sure that you understand that I'm not a tough guy or streetfighter or anything like that - I just want to make sure that I can make the sh*t work so I don't end up being like that Ki master who got beyotch smacked by that newbie MMAer on that news video that circulated a few years ago.

But I also believe that should be the goal of all TCMA or MA practitioners. The sh*t should work within reason... and I don't think TCMAers are always serious enough or focused enough to guarantee that what they're learning works for them on someone that they don't know... if for the off chance that someone walks into your kwoon and wants to test ya.

That's why I say having a "fighting is easy" mentality will get you a good arse kicking. Fighting's hard, yet it's the most basic core fundamental reason for MA - the premise that fighting is hard. Take the time to try and master it in a real way and be serious about it.

[MasterKiller]

My Judo Coach suggested we go to local high schools and do demos for their wrestling teams in an attempt to get new students (off season training since Judo and wrestling are similar). I looked at him and said that if my buddy Dave and I do this, our game has to be top notch because only a big lion can walk into another's den. He said we'll be there to demo, I said I guarantee that we'll get challenged.
----
My buddy went to Brazil w/ his girlfriend (she's Brazilian) and she took him to a local BJJ gym down there. He's a Blue Belt here. Luckily he remembered some advice I gave to him a long time ago - I said you don't have to win, just don't get beat. Every white-blue- and purple in that place wanted a piece of him. They were all animals (in a good spirited way) and all were better than he's faced here. He fought to survive, not once did he get submitted but he never submitted anyone either - yet he EARNED their respect and the coach invited him to come back whenever he can and he has many new friends.
----
I spent about an hour last night working praying mantis self defense that I KNOW WORKS (because I've invested the time in it and have taken hard knocks) with guys at the local MMA gym. These are tough guys, wrestlers, BJJers, and Boxers. I've earned their respect because I only use kung fu that works or at least has the potential to work. I may not win because most of these guys are younger, and stronger, and in some cases - more hardened than me. But I have their respect.

That's not fighting. It's competing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Semantics *****es, that's all.

We compete now because dueling and challenges are against the law.
People dueled because they had no wars to fight in at the time.
People went to war because fighting was in their blood.
Since the dawn of time, man has fought and because fighting isn't as easy as brawling, systematized styles of fighting came to be.

[MasterKiller]

Semantics *****es, that's all.

We compete now because dueling and challenges are against the law.
People dueled because they had no wars to fight in at the time.
People went to war because fighting was in their blood.
Since the dawn of time, man has fought and because fighting isn't as easy as brawling, systematized styles of fighting came to be.

There's a difference between this
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RJsi_2rAzRE/TZUCR2O7D4I/AAAAAAAAAck/3C9y-GXEddE/s1600/HulkSmash-Animated.gif

and this
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8866/seoimotionmk9.gif

on very many important levels.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Neither is competition and only one was fighting.

[RenDaHai]

And lemme tell ya, almost all of them involve combatants with no skill whatsoever. That's one of the fundamental issues I've always had with the ol' "won't work on the street" argument. You'd be amazed what kind of stupid crap works on the street because many street brawlers can't even throw a basic combo. We, as martial artists, tend to look at combat from a more critical, tactical perspective. We imagine the worse-case scenario - facing a trained fighter.


I've spent many years in DengFeng and enjoy exploring the seedy side of town. Everyone there is trained as you well know. You would be surprised at the street brawls there.... Its just as stupid. Its no different. As soon as it really kicks off it doesn't look skilled. Just a brawl. I think people forget their training and their instinct takes over. I think MA technique only becomes important if someone can keep control of their mind and emotion first.

With combat of any kind, I think the winner is the one who chooses the rules.

[MasterKiller]

Neither is competition and only one was fighting.

I couldn't find a tournament GIF under 3 MB. But you certainly know what I'm talking about.

Atheletes competing against one another at a high level, with great intensity, is one thing.

Fighting is something else entirely, and requires very little actual skill.

Think you need to train 4 hours a day to be a "fighter"? Then check out World Star Hip Hop sometime.

[MightyB]

Why do something if it has no demonstrable value?

[MasterKiller]

Why do something if it has no demonstrable value?

Beauty is it's own excuse for being, my friend.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I couldn't find a tournament GIF under 3 MB. But you certainly know what I'm talking about.

Atheletes competing against one another at a high level, with great intensity, is one thing.

Fighting is something else entirely, and requires very little actual skill.

Think you need to train 4 hours a day to be a "fighter"? Then check out World Star Hip Hop sometime.

Ah, I see.
Yes, in terms of degree of difficulty I would say:
Brawling-Fighting-Competiton

In the old days:
Brawling-fighting-duelling/challenge match

[MasterKiller]

Ah, I see.
Yes, in terms of degree of difficulty I would say:
Brawling-Fighting-Competiton

In the old days:
Brawling-fighting-duelling/challenge match

First nuts. Second strength. Third skill.

It ain't rocket science.

[YouKnowWho]

Good discussion subject. Just hope it won't soon turn into "TCMA is more than just fighting" argument.

For those who said that fighting is easy, I would suggest the following test.

- Get 10 training partners.
- Try 10 rounds sparring/wrestling on each opponent.
- Try to only use your single best move (Whether that will be hip throw, single leg, foot sweep, hook punch, side kick, ...).
- Record your result (either take down or knock down).

10 guys x 10 rounds = 100 rounds. Among your 100 rounds, if your best move can score

- above 50%, you are average.
- above 75%, you are good.

[MightyB]

Beauty is it's own excuse for being, my friend.

If that really is the case -

Then I strongly suggest the non-martial practice of Yoga
http://i46.tinypic.com/1zpqhs9.jpg

[RenDaHai]

Good discussion subject. Just hope it won't soon turn into "TCMA is more than just fighting" argument.


Hey guys,

I'm gonna spare you the whole 'TCMA is more than fighting' argument because I know I do that too much.

But it really seems to me some of you really want MA to be all about Competition. But to be honest, in my experience a real fight is rarely a competition, its a foregone conclusion. All of us love a close match. Thats what competition is all about. But with real combat no-one wants to gamble their lives on a close match.

So often MA is all about changing the rules of the game so it is not a fair match, so there is no competition. They win before they even think about actually fighting. And that is what separates MA and competition.

And its not about 'too deadly for the ring' techniques... Its something else, attitude and strategy and psychology and experience and intent and many other things. But it can't be summed up by high percentage moves.

[Lucas]

the last fight i got into i used my skateboard. fighting isnt about fair, its about winning. what ever you constitute as a win is the only thing that matters. walking away safe, defeating the person attacking you, getting the jump for revenge, saving someone else from harm...what ever the 'win' is, is all that matters. thats why weapons trump most.

[RenDaHai]

the last fight i got into i used my skateboard. fighting isnt about fair, its about winning. what ever you constitute as a win is the only thing that matters. walking away safe, defeating the person attacking you, getting the jump for revenge, saving someone else from harm...what ever the 'win' is, is all that matters. thats why weapons trump most.

Indeed. The prerequisite for winning is not always to destroy the opponent. I think it is important for a MA to reflect this.

[Syn7]

Or even if they receive no MA training at all. There are many examples of the latter.

I would consider street thuggin to be a valid training method for fighting(not a good way, not nice, but valid none the less). You don't have to learn any style, just practice what experience has shown you to be effective. There are lots of people like that. It would be incorrect to say they have no MA training at all. Nobody who has never thrown a punch or even wrestled with their friends is going to be a good fighter. NONE!

Yeah some people are more naturally inclined, but that doesn't mean they can fight from day one. These people who are naturals pick it up faster once they start learning, but if that learning process never occurs, they will not be good fighters.

[GeneChing]

I've spent many years in DengFeng and enjoy exploring the seedy side of town. Everyone there is trained as you well know. You would be surprised at the street brawls there.... Its just as stupid. Its no different. As soon as it really kicks off it doesn't look skilled. Just a brawl. I think people forget their training and their instinct takes over. I think MA technique only becomes important if someone can keep control of their mind and emotion first. You know, I saw a few street fights and challenges in Dengfeng when I was there too. I saw one that involved two kids wrestling over a dust pan that went from your typical push-and-shove to something out of a Jackie Chan movie. Blew me away. Perhaps that was a freak occurrence, but I'll never forget it.

I've been involved in a few textbook takedowns, which are very reaffirming. There's nothing more satisfying than getting an application to work in the real world. Mind you, the volunteer medical stuff I do is a little different because we aren't out to hurt the patient. Quite the opposite. They can hurt us but we aren't supposed to hurt them. That changes things a lot.

[YouKnowWho]

it is not a fair match,
That's why we need to learn a lot of dirty tricks and also try to protect us from others to use dirty tricks on us.

- You shake hand with someone.
- His monster grip almost crashed your hand.
- You tap out and he lets go your hand (He feels good about it).
- You say that you don't believe he can do it again.
- Next time he tries to shake your hand, you use your palm heel to push on his thumb and break it.

Is this fair? Who's fault is it to cause the broken thumb?

- One guy comes to you and asks for a challenge fight.
- You say OK, jump in, and take him down.

Is this fair?

- You serve tea to someone on dinner table.
- Suddently, you throw hot tea at his face, jump in, and beat him up.

Is this fair?

If one is not prepared for those kind of dirty tricks, is that his problem or your problem?

[Syn7]

- You shake hand with someone.
- His monster grip almost crashed your hand.
- You tap out and he lets go your hand.
- You say that you don't believe he can do it again.
- Next time he tries to shake your hand, you use your palm heel to push on his thumb and break his thumb.

Is this fair? Who's fault is to cause the broken thumb?

It's his fault for letting you tap out! But no, it isn't "fair play". But most fights are very very UNfair. Fair has nothing to do with surviving a violent encounter. Fair play may even get you hurt. If you drop him and let him stand back up to box some more and he drops you, that's your own fault. You should finish or take the opportunity to get outta there. Finishing can be anything from caving in his skull to binding his hands and everything in between.
That being said, there are times when showing mercy is the best alternative. It may prevent future action against you. On the flipside, they may just come back and triple tap your ass. Two to center mass and one more in the head for good measure.

[RenDaHai]

It's his fault for letting you tap out! But no, it isn't "fair play". But most fights are very very UNfair. Fair has nothing to do with surviving a violent encounter. Fair play may even get you hurt. If you drop him and let him stand back up to box some more and he drops you, that's your own fault. You should finish or take the opportunity to get outta there. Finishing can be anything from caving in his skull to binding his hands and everything in between.
That being said, there are times when showing mercy is the best alternative. It may prevent future action against you. On the flipside, they may just come back and triple tap your ass. Two to center mass and one more in the head for good measure.

Thats the real trick isn't it.

You can escalate the violence and that gives you a bigger chance of winning. But it also puts you in more danger, and on dodgy legal and moral ground. There are many consiquences to each action.

If you choose never to be the one to escalate, to change the rules, then you will always be at the disadvantage.

It means you have to be a great judge of the situation.... its not really something that can be taught so easily huh.....

[YouKnowWho]

You can escalate the violence and that gives you a bigger chance of winning. But it also puts you in more danger,


Oneday I asked my teacher, "What's the best way to prevent people from challenge you day by day?" He said, "If you can build up bad reputation that whoever challenges you would get serious injury, nobody would want to take chance to challenge you after that." He also said, "The day that you stepped on the path of TCMA, you truly didn't have much choice."

He was talking about his generation in China. I'm not sure it applies in our generation outside China. What's your thought?

[RenDaHai]

You know, I saw a few street fights and challenges in Dengfeng when I was there too. I saw one that involved two kids wrestling over a dust pan that went from your typical push-and-shove to something out of a Jackie Chan movie. Blew me away. Perhaps that was a freak occurrence, but I'll never forget it.



Hehe. Oh yeah, I'm talking about the drunken brawls outside the KTVs and so called nightclubs. (its often school coaches). They are fast and powerful and agile, but they totally degenerate into mindless violence. They always go for a bottle or stool or something. Dissapointing.

The school playground fights are awesome. The kids really go at it and it does go full on movie style. But its not quite the same, its missing the violence. Great fun to watch them though. Happened every day at Tagou. YOu get to see some crazy moves actually connect. Seriously they pull out Xuanzi and stuff. Awesome.

[MightyB]

But it really seems to me some of you really want MA to be all about Competition. But to be honest, in my experience a real fight is rarely a competition, its a foregone conclusion. All of us love a close match. Thats what competition is all about. But with real combat no-one wants to gamble their lives on a close match.


No, my point in bringing up this discussion has nothing to do with competition. The point I'm trying to make is using the most basic skills, techniques, whatever - really being able to use those. Not theoretical, not just knowing the text book "application" with one of your compliant buddies or students - No, it's about knowing and using, and being able to use the techniques from your system. That should be the goal. With a "pfft fighting is easy" attitude, people simply miss the point - to the ki master who thought he was chi blasting the room, to him fighting was easy because he thought he could use super mental bullets - one MMAer newbie beyotch slapped him on TV because of that mistake. I've met many people that thought they were studying martial arts, thought they knew martial arts, but they knew nothing because they could not apply any of the techniques they were training to a non-compliant person. What's the use in that? It means you are worse than a white belt to me. I'm not talking about the old, or the infirmed. I'm talking about young, able bodied men and women that could not do a basic wrist escape even though they thought they knew chin na, or do a simple trap on a fist to cuffs exchange. What's the friggin point? They of course believed fighting was easy and were somehow above the fray because they were martial artists. as my Si Gung would say "Lop Sop".

[GeneChing]

The school playground fights are awesome. The kids really go at it and it does go full on movie style. But its not quite the same, its missing the violence. Great fun to watch them though. Happened every day at Tagou. YOu get to see some crazy moves actually connect. Seriously they pull out Xuanzi and stuff. Awesome. Good to know some things haven't changed in Dengfeng.


the last fight i got into i used my skateboard. You know, I have a Shaolin Skateboard deck. It was a gift from my Shaolin shidi. I don't ride. Besides, it's just the deck, no trucks. Ironically, I keep it in my weapons rack.

[RenDaHai]

He was talking about his generation in China. I'm not sure it applies in our generation outside China. What's your thought?

Thats a really interesting question. Back in the 50's and 60's is when some of my teachers trained and that was a really tough time in China. Then you would really have to have this attitude. But in the west, today, I don't think its a good idea. Society is more compassionate, at least on the surface and I think its necessary to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But in a way that is the harder path to walk, because if you do it, you will always have the odds against you.

My oldest master was trained in the 30's and 40's and his attitude is different from the younger ones. He is very strict on WuDe.

The meanest was actually my Zen master.... He told me ' Your fist is like a gun, but your intent is the bullet, without the bullet a gun is little more than a club'. He explained a lot about 'ShaXin' Murderous intent and other things during combat but he said it was for the Soldier styles, not for me. He came up in the 50's.

[MightyB]

Oneday I asked my teacher, "What's the best way to prevent people from challenge you day by day?" He said, "If you can build up bad reputation that whoever challenges you would get serious injury, nobody would want to take chance to challenge you after that." He also said, "The day that you stepped on the path of TCMA, you truly didn't have much choice."

He was talking about his generation in China. I'm not sure it applies in our generation outside China. What's your thought?

It most definitely applies. Today the neighboring restaurant's chef, and one of my employees almost got into a fight due to a parking dispute. The chef happens to also be a wrestling coach, and was a former wrestler himself. He's big, muscular, agile and all of 25. I'm 38, 165 lbs soaking wet - but I'm friends with the local MMA school owner, who happens to be the local BJJ coach and who's a mutual friend of the chef's. The chef knows that I'm a Judo guy who is also known to go to the local MMA gym and give good fights with the guys.

I walked into the middle of the dispute, told my employee to go back to work, and told the angry chef who was about to throw down that he should just go back inside. He went back inside.

Reputation carries weight.

[Syn7]

Yes it is a judgment call and quite often it is specific to the local atmosphere. What is good here, may be a bad idea there. GI Joe had this one locked. Knowing is half the battle.

If you don't know or understand your opponent, avoidance is most likely your best bet. But then it really depends on the what wheres and whys.

[RenDaHai]

Knowing is half the battle..

I think this is right. YOu have to know your environment. If you are in the wrong part of town you can't act the same as you do in the nice part of town. Even body language can get you in a lot of trouble. But we can't always know the place.

I think if you carry yourself tough, trouble will find you.

[Syn7]

Yeah that and by all means, don't step on anyones new white sneakers or you may get shot :eek:

[MightyB]

EarthDragon posted a vid of himself piercing a watermelon with his fingers. To me he has the right idea and this has nothing to do with competition. Why? Because a lot of TCMA styles have eye pokes - which in theory work great. Unfortunately we live in the real world. And in the real world, actions have consequences. Now I know that most people who gravitate to something like TCMA aren't exactly athletic, so they might not understand this... but, have you ever had someone throw you a basketball and you jam your fingers on it with the catch? Your fingers swell and hurt and you'll have a hard time making a fist. Well, let's go back to the eye poke and ED's video. See, people's heads do an amazing thing - they move. So what if you were in a life and death situation and you go to do an eye strike and your aim is off and you bounce your finger tips off of the guy's forehead? OUCH - major jamming if you're not conditioned like ED. Your hand swells and you can't make a fist or grasp. In other words, you're f**ked.

Fighting isn't easy - train seriously.

[YouKnowWho]

EarthDragon posted a vid of himself piercing a watermelon with his fingers. To me he has the right idea and this has nothing to do with competition.
To develop some useful skills in your life time has nothing to do with competation.

I have always suggested my guys to spend more time to develop their "foot sweep". You will have more chance to use your "foot sweep" than to use your hip throw. As long as your opponent stands with one leg forward and one leg backward, you will have 180 degree to work with. Since timing is important for foot sweep, it's much harder to develop it than to develop hip throw.

[Syn7]

To develop some useful skills in your life time has nothing to do with competation.

I have always suggested my guys to spend more time to develop their "foot sweep". You will have more chance to use your "foot sweep" than to use your hip throw. As long as your opponent stands with one leg forward and one leg backward, you will have 180 degree to work with. Since timing is important for foot sweep, it's much harder to develop it than to develop hip throw.

Yeah, and with the foot sweep you don't have to commit the way you do for a hip toss. You are more mobile and still relatively upright. This gives you more options in the real world where you can't drop into an arm bar without getting stabbed or swarmed... or worse.

[MasterKiller]

It most definitely applies. Today the neighboring restaurant's chef, and one of my employees almost got into a fight due to a parking dispute. The chef happens to also be a wrestling coach, and was a former wrestler himself. He's big, muscular, agile and all of 25. I'm 38, 165 lbs soaking wet - but I'm friends with the local MMA school owner, who happens to be the local BJJ coach and who's a mutual friend of the chef's. The chef knows that I'm a Judo guy who is also known to go to the local MMA gym and give good fights with the guys.

I walked into the middle of the dispute, told my employee to go back to work, and told the angry chef who was about to throw down that he should just go back inside. He went back inside.

Reputation carries weight.



More likely he decided to be an adult and not go to jail over a parking spot.

Or he didn't squish you out of respect for you BJJ coach.

Nevertheless, I think you need some therapy to deal with your obviously low self esteem. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

No, it's about knowing and using, and being able to use the techniques from your system. That should be the goal.

That's a whole different beast from


you have to know, understand, and breathe this thought if you want to truly understand your art. Fighting is hard, fighting is difficult, mastery of fighting is nearly impossible, but it's what you should be striving for if you want to be a master.

Competency and mastery are two different paths. Your argument is all over the place.

[MightyB]

Nevertheless, I think you need some therapy to deal with your obviously low self esteem. :rolleyes:

I didn't want to get in the middle of it, but I also can't have people fighting in my parking lot - so I had to step in to diffuse the situation. It was very out of character for that chef to be acting that way, so I plan on talking to him next time I see him when he has a cooler head to find out what was really going on that day. I told my employee the same thing because I don't want him to have hard feelings out of what probably is a minor misunderstanding.

[MightyB]

That's a whole different beast from



Competency and mastery are two different paths. Your argument is all over the place.

Sometimes I think you're on crack - competency and mastery are one in the same. And you will never get competency if you think fighting is easy and can be discounted as such. I thought you wrestled or did MMA or some sh*t with your long fist so you should have some familiarity with a simple move such as a Kimura. Simple on paper, simple in theory, now try to apply it on someone who's fighting back even in friendly but competitive sparring. "It's a whole different beast", but that's how you get competency. And you never lose that competency even in old age because you'll just learn ways to be more efficient over time.

I'm probably not expressing myself correctly so I'll leave it at this:

Don't say fighting is easy because it's not. There wouldn't be a need for any martial arts if it was easy.

[EarthDragon]

This thread is all over the place, but often have I have also said fighting is easy, only in my way of saying ego over confidence ****ness and any jerk with too many a beer and 2 fists can fight this is animal instinct and natural to defend oneself, "hence fighting is easy"

The ability to fight well, controlled, smooth, effortless without panic and efficient..... that is our goal, to end a life threatening circumstance quickly and get out. otherwise fighting is easy. skill in fighting is a life long training lesson.

[MasterKiller]

Sometimes I think you're on crack - competency and mastery are one in the same. And you will never get competency if you think fighting is easy and can be discounted as such.
So which are you...a master, or incompetent?

[MightyB]

So which are you...a master, or incompetent?

A little of both leaning more to the incompetent side but working on it. Unlike you, you're just a douche :rolleyes:

Earth Dragon expressed what I've been trying to say very well:

The ability to fight well, controlled, smooth, effortless without panic and efficient..... that is our goal, to end a life threatening circumstance quickly and get out. otherwise fighting is easy. skill in fighting is a life long training lesson.

[bawang]

The ability to fight well, controlled, smooth, effortless without panic and efficient..... that is our goal, to end a life threatening circumstance quickly and get out. otherwise fighting is easy. skill in fighting is a life long training lesson.

i do that easily against white men. i feel no remorse, no emotion.

however when i fight chocolate people i feel pain and sorrow. we are brother against brother.

[ginosifu]

In another thread people kept saying "fighting is easy" and then went on to justify TCMA practice as different and somehow better. This bothers me.

If fighting were easy, and TCMA practitioners can discount it as such, then you'd expect to see amazing TCMA fighters. But you don't. They're alluded to in mysterious ways, but you never see them. You could say that the masters feel no reason to boast, so you won't see them, but if it were easy like they say, then you'd at least see some brash todai out there kicking arse and taking names... but you don't.

Fighting isn't easy - if it was, then you wouldn't have TCMA or MA. Fighting's not easy and you have to know, understand, and breathe this thought if you want to truly understand your art. Fighting is hard, fighting is difficult, mastery of fighting is nearly impossible, but it's what you should be striving for if you want to be a master.


This is the exact thing I have been preacging for a while now. Anyone can brawl or street fight:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RJsi_2rAzRE/TZUCR2O7D4I/AAAAAAAAAck/3C9y-GXEddE/s1600/HulkSmash-Animated.gif

These primal / instinctive / natural moves are in our genetic make up. Learning a stylized system is hard.

MY OPINION is that modern mma is more primal or instinctive and less of a stylized system. Not that either are more or less effective in sport combat, but that a system is harder to learn and apply in combat, but better overall for street wise self defense.


It seems people are confusing brawling with fighting, which is understandable.

I have been trying to get this point across to everyone to no avail. Arrrghh

ginosifu

[EarthDragon]

What a great slam

[bawang]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RJsi_2rAzRE/TZUCR2O7D4I/AAAAAAAAAck/3C9y-GXEddE/s1600/HulkSmash-Animated.gif

These primal / instinctive / natural moves are in our genetic make up. Learning a stylized system is hard.


face protecting palm, tiger hug, luohan pulls tree.

[PalmStriker]

This video of an inexperienced kid up against an UN-conscioused sociopath is criminal. Kids and people in general should avoid confrontations with such. When they see their own tombstone in your eyes they have some brainwave activity that stops their forward motion. I guarantee that kid had to be rushed to the hospital, because it was filmed, there is reason to suspect even more wrongdoing. :(

[Jimbo]

Actually, the bigger kid had been bullied relentlessly. Right or not, IMO, he was justified in slamming the other kid. If I remember correctly, the one who filmed it was one of the smaller kid's cronies helping him record another session of bullying.

[EarthDragon]

the little guy was the instagater from my eyes. he got what he deserved.

[YouKnowWho]

MY OPINION is that modern mma is more primal or instinctive and less of a stylized system. Not that either are more or less effective in sport combat, but that a system is harder to learn and apply in combat, but better overall for street wise self defense.

Agree! The "hip throw" is much harder to develop than the "pull guard". Sometime MMA guys may like to take the short cut.

What is "system"? On wrestling mat, teacher also comments on his student, "He has technique". When a teacher says that, it doesn't mean that his student uses his move successfully but his student tries to use legitimate move. What's legitimate move? It's a move from the style.

If a SC guy uses

- "hip throw", he is using his system.
- "pull guard", he is not using his system because "pull guard" does not exist in his SC system.

[ginosifu]

What is "system"? On wrestling mat, teacher also comments on his student, "He has technique". When a teacher says that, it doesn't mean that his student uses his move successfully but his student tries to use legitimate move. What's legitimate move? It's a move from the style.

That is a good question. What is the difference between system and technique? Both have techniques to use for combat, both can work and be applicable in sport or self defense.

Natural techniques are things that anyone uses in a fighting situation without having had any instruction from a teacher. An example is that bomb hook punch from left field. Any can use with out any training or learning any system. Another example is the "Rush in and tackle method", all people can use this without training.

Eagle Claw system has an indepth Chin Na / Grappling system and takes many years to become proficient to use this method. Mantis has a trapping system again that years to master. These techniques combined with other techniques are not "Natural" and are more difficult to apply in combat.

ginosifu

[bawang]

years to master

your sifu has milked you well. you are a good dog.

[ginosifu]

your sifu has milked you well. you are a good dog.

Milked what? I have not paid my sifu a nickel in over 15 years. When I started the instructor program I no longer paid tuition and just trained for free ever since.

sorry bout that bawang

ginosifu

[Syn7]

This is the exact thing I have been preacging for a while now. Anyone can brawl or street fight:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RJsi_2rAzRE/TZUCR2O7D4I/AAAAAAAAAck/3C9y-GXEddE/s1600/HulkSmash-Animated.gif

These primal / instinctive / natural moves are in our genetic make up. Learning a stylized system is hard.

MY OPINION is that modern mma is more primal or instinctive and less of a stylized system. Not that either are more or less effective in sport combat, but that a system is harder to learn and apply in combat, but better overall for street wise self defense.



I have been trying to get this point across to everyone to no avail. Arrrghh

ginosifu


Ok first of all, size matters. Clearly. If the big kid was the same size as the lil guy, that would NOT have happened.

Second, just because the kid was being bullied does not mean he has no experience. Maybe he wrestles with an older brother or something. You don't know and you can't use this as an example because of all the unknown variables. Horrible example, horrible. Huge fail, HUGE. Come on, man.

Yeah sure, anyone can swing their arms or hold on and throw, is that your point here? And if they double the weight of their opponent, they will most likely win. What a revelation.


You think that lil kid had a broken ankle after that? That curb looks like it would have done most of the damage.

[Syn7]

This video of an inexperienced kid up against an UN-conscioused sociopath is criminal. Kids and people in general should avoid confrontations with such. When they see their own tombstone in your eyes they have some brainwave activity that stops their forward motion. I guarantee that kid had to be rushed to the hospital, because it was filmed, there is reason to suspect even more wrongdoing. :(

I've seen the full clip. The big kid actually takes alot of abuse before he fights back.

[bawang]

Milked what? I have not paid my sifu a nickel in over 15 years. When I started the instructor program I no longer paid tuition and just trained for free ever since.

sorry bout that bawang

ginosifu

then why u talking like a ricebowl saying kung fu fighting is so unnatural it takes decades to learn how to fight? thats bullshiet mang. thats outlandish.

you saying when your hair is turning white and your body is breaking down and you getting old and sickly, thats when you finally learn how to fight wit kung fu. the fuk outta here.

[Syn7]

Here is the full clip for a bit of context. Personally, I think the big kid showed remarkable restraint even if he did go a lil overboard with the solution. That being said, I don't think he intended to do so much harm. He just flowed with it. Had they been the same size, 80% of the time that would have just ended in a dry-humping stale mate. The psychology here is very interesting. The big kid was insecure from the get go and that is why I think he went overboard. He was scared and went with it. Had he been more secure he may have realised the kind of harm he was about to cause. Yeah the lil guy was a piece of **** but he didn't deserve what he got. He deserved the lesson, but not the damage that may very well be long term.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isfn4OxCPQs&feature=related


Can I embed vids here?


more context:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ziIfZx0XX5I&feature=fvwp

[Bacon]

If you instigate a situation like that, if you back someone into a corner and push them so far, if you start striking an innocent individual you deserve that. The bully had plenty opportunity to walk away. Two weeks worth of opportunity.

[ginosifu]

Ok first of all, size matters. Clearly. If the big kid was the same size as the lil guy, that would NOT have happened.

Second, just because the kid was being bullied does not mean he has no experience. Maybe he wrestles with an older brother or something. You don't know and you can't use this as an example because of all the unknown variables. Horrible example, horrible. Huge fail, HUGE. Come on, man.

Yeah sure, anyone can swing their arms or hold on and throw, is that your point here? And if they double the weight of their opponent, they will most likely win. What a revelation.


You think that lil kid had a broken ankle after that? That curb looks like it would have done most of the damage.

Your missing the point: First the clip is from MK (I'm not good at clips and pics). I just seen it in this thread earlier and copied it. The idea is that you do not need any MA training to brawl.


then why u talking like a ricebowl saying kung fu fighting is so unnatural it takes decades to learn how to fight? thats bullshiet mang. thats outlandish.

you saying when your hair is turning white and your body is breaking down and you getting old and sickly, thats when you finally learn how to fight wit kung fu. the fuk outta here.

Your not understanding the point I was trying to make. Brawling is natural and takes no training. Learning a style may take several years to get good at. You are right when you get old.... I am almost 50 and always out skill my younger opponents.

ginosifu

[bawang]

Your not understanding the point I was trying to make. Brawling is natural and takes no training. Learning a style may take several years to get good at. You are right when you get old.... I am almost 50 and always out skill my younger opponents.

ginosifu

ok. go fight in mma right now, skilled master.

[David Jamieson]

ok. go fight in mma right now, skilled master.

Easy now.

Try to be civil for pete's sake.

[GeneChing]

Good one, DJ.

You know, I keep thinking that one of these days, one of the powers that be from our parent company (https://www.tigerclaw.com/home.php) will be idly perusing the forum and will come across some Bawang posts, and I'll be called into the office and listen to some lecture, just like I had to go to the Principal's office so many times in Elementary school. Then I'll have no choice but to ban him. Of course, that could happen to anyone here at any time. The claw of Tiger Claw is like the hand of God here on our little forum.

[MasterKiller]

Little known fact.

Bawang owns majority shares in Tiger Claw.

[bawang]

Easy now.

Try to be civil for pete's sake.

but hes pulling a hardwork108 on me.

when the horse has decomposed into a skeleton, he dig it up and beat it again. saying mma fighters are knucklehead brutes who have no skill.

Good one, DJ.

You know, I keep thinking that one of these days, one of the powers that be from our parent company (https://www.tigerclaw.com/home.php) will be idly perusing the forum and will come across some Bawang posts, and I'll be called into the office and listen to some lecture, just like I had to go to the Principal's office so many times in Elementary school. Then I'll have no choice but to ban him. Of course, that could happen to anyone here at any time. The claw of Tiger Claw is like the hand of God here on our little forum.

then i will become martyr like jesus christ, dalai lama, and leung ting.

[GeneChing]

then i will become martyr like jesus christ, dalai lama, and leung ting. It's posts like that which keep me from banning you already, bawang. ;)

[bawang]

thank you, my chinese brother. i knew you could not send me away, because of the chinese flood flowing in you.

[GeneChing]

I thought it was just a little indigestion from eating too much leftover Halloween candy.

[David Jamieson]

Looks like we got us a little bit of Chinese bro love going on here. *banjo and erwu music starts


:p

[GeneChing]

You mean me and bawang?

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW....

:mad:

[MasterKiller]

because of the chinese flood flowing in you. Shaolin slimfast, imo

[David Jamieson]

Shaolin slimfast, imo

That's just called "drink the water, go ahead westerner idiot"...

You will explosively lose weight! Fa jin the crap right out of you. Literally....