3 K1 Belts

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

I even forgot to say. My student and training partner Peter Irving has won 3 professional K1 Belts this year. Using lots of the Chu Sau Lei Chinese Boxing skills we train.

best Alan

[anerlich]

The self appointed pundits here can argue about chi sao, but not results.

Congratulations.

[Alan Orr]

The self appointed pundits here can argue about chi sao, but not results.

Congratulations.


Very true lol

Thanks

[Buddha_Fist]

Congrats to him on his win!

On Andrew's post though, what does a K1 belt mean? I do think that this is a good question. Is it an automatic guarantee of top-notch Ving Tsun? I personally think that the answer is no - it is more of a testament to Peter's training regimen, applied technique, and various skills and attributes compared to those of the given individuals he fought against. The technique could have been whatever method as long as it was paired with the right attributes (good old distance, timing, footwork, etc.). That's the reason why there are so many boxing methods that can produce good results (Western, Thai, etc.). Whether he used good Ving Tsun is in these days in the eye of the beholder. I tend to look at whether the strategies that Ving Tsun pursues are being followed, as well as at the body mechanics and attributes used to make these happen. The wins are huge (congrats again) but they are not the whole story when it comes to Ving Tsun.

[anerlich]

I tend to look at whether the strategies that Ving Tsun pursues are being followed, as well as at the body mechanics and attributes used to make these happen.

Not sure what your point is, or why you feel a need to qualify your praise for this achievement.

If the guy won using "bad" Wing Chun (which I doubt), he's better than the guy that used "good Wing Chun principles" but lost.

If he had lost, his Wing Chun would have sucked more than whatever the other guy did. EOS.

Surely no one is going to demand to see a vid before they agree that what he did was sufficiently adherent to WC principles to be regarded as worthy of unqualified praise?

[Alan Orr]

Congrats to him on his win!

On Andrew's post though, what does a K1 belt mean? I do think that this is a good question. Is it an automatic guarantee of top-notch Ving Tsun? I personally think that the answer is no - it is more of a testament to Peter's training regimen, applied technique, and various skills and attributes compared to those of the given individuals he fought against. The technique could have been whatever method as long as it was paired with the right attributes (good old distance, timing, footwork, etc.). That's the reason why there are so many boxing methods that can produce good results (Western, Thai, etc.). Whether he used good Ving Tsun is in these days in the eye of the beholder. I tend to look at whether the strategies that Ving Tsun pursues are being followed, as well as at the body mechanics and attributes used to make these happen. The wins are huge (congrats again) but they are not the whole story when it comes to Ving Tsun.

Congrats on the win....But ... haha this is all to funny. It we win a lot... which we do.. then it's not our wing chun or it does not proved it's our wing chun Really?

Yes it was a lot to do with Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun - as that's what we train and that's what we applied. It is quite simple. Distance, timing, and so on are what makes our system what it is. A lot of poor wing chun has bad timing and bad distance control - that's some will work and some will not. The way you prove your style is to test it. That's what we have done 100's of times now. So we do know the differences. thanks you

[Alan Orr]

Not sure what your point is, or why you feel a need to qualify your praise for this achievement.

If the guy won using "bad" Wing Chun (which I doubt), he's better than the guy that used "good Wing Chun principles" but lost.

If he had lost, his Wing Chun would have sucked more than whatever the other guy did. EOS.

Surely no one is going to demand to see a vid before they agree that what he did was sufficiently adherent to WC principles to be regarded as worthy of unqualified praise?

Yes its crazy right - they say it it works it can't be wing chun lol so wing chun is only wing chun if it's not working under pressure. I think horse and dead come to mind lol


This is one of Pete's K1 fights -

For the guys that think wing chun training is wing chun fighting it will mean nothing. But ifor the guys that understand wing chun combat they will see elbow power, good balance in close and relaxed short range skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l_3t-o-ikg

[Buddha_Fist]

Not sure what your point is, or why you feel a need to qualify your praise for this achievement.

If the guy won using "bad" Wing Chun (which I doubt), he's better than the guy that used "good Wing Chun principles" but lost.

If he had lost, his Wing Chun would have sucked more than whatever the other guy did. EOS.

Surely no one is going to demand to see a vid before they agree that what he did was sufficiently adherent to WC principles to be regarded as worthy of unqualified praise?

No need to qualify the congrats... pigment of your imagination... He won - so good for him!

The point was rather simple. Though obviously not to you, judging by your post... :D

[jesper]

good for him
Congrats on the results

[Alan Orr]

good for him
Congrats on the results

Thanks I will pass it on to Pete

[desertwingchun2]

Hi Guys

I even forgot to say. My student and training partner Peter Irving has won 3 professional K1 Belts this year. Using lots of the Chu Sau Lei Chinese Boxing skills we train.

best Alan

Where is the Like button??

Congrats!! K1 isn't pony league!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having seen how Alan's guys train their WC I can say that they fight like they train !
Congrats Alan, keep up the good work.

[anerlich]

The point was rather simple. Though obviously not to you, judging by your post.

Your points appear to be missed on this thread and the other about the chi sao comp. Sucks to be you, I guess.

It's not the reader, but the poster, who is at fault here.

[k gledhill]

Your points appear to be missed on this thread and the other about the chi sao comp. Sucks to be you, I guess.

It's not the reader, but the poster, who is at fault here.

I disagree, the point has been made by many (often) but still missed, even here, trying to be the smart a#rse wont change that.

[Alan Orr]

Where is the Like button??

Congrats!! K1 isn't pony league!

Many thanks. Yes K1 is very tough.

[Alan Orr]

Having seen how Alan's guys train their WC I can say that they fight like they train !
Congrats Alan, keep up the good work.

Thank you very much.

[Alan Orr]

I disagree, the point has been made by many (often) but still missed, even here, trying to be the smart a#rse wont change that.


You make your point all the time Kev, its just that not everyone agrees with you.

[anerlich]

I disagree, the point has been made by many (often) but still missed, even here, trying to be the smart a#rse wont change that.


LOL at you accusing anyone else of being the smartar$e, Kev.

Tell us how again how chi sao comps are useless then post another clip of Mr Bayer beating guys at chi sao as evidence of how bada$$ your method is.

[Buddha_Fist]

Your points appear to be missed on this thread and the other about the chi sao comp. Sucks to be you, I guess.

It's not the reader, but the poster, who is at fault here.

It's actually pretty awesome being me. :D

[JPinAZ]

LOL at you accusing anyone else of being the smartar$e, Kev.

Tell us again how chi sao comps are useless then post another clip of Mr Bayer beating guys at chi sao as evidence of how bada$$ your method is.

HAHAHA, too funny (and so true)

[k gledhill]

HAHAHA, too funny (and so true)

sigh...another chi-sao competitior, obviously people cant see the underlying ideas in clips, they project their own limited perceptions and get COMPETITION :o

[GlennR]

sigh...another chi-sao competitior, obviously people cant see the underlying ideas in clips, they project their own limited perceptions and get COMPETITION :o

Whats not to get?

The only clips ive seen of PB are him overwhelming a student during chi-sao (there's lots of those), yet when a contest is proposed doing the same thing its wrong.

[Buddha_Fist]

Whats not to get?

The only clips ive seen of PB are him overwhelming a student during chi-sao (there's lots of those), yet when a contest is proposed doing the same thing its wrong.

The clips show Philipp teaching: varying pressure on his student, emphasizing position, timing, opportunities, etc. They are not about Philipp himself, but about the coaching that is taking place, the drilling of habits and body mechanics... Doubt about his or his student's abilities? Pay him/them a visit...

Chi-Sao is an educational tool within the setting of progressive training. Chi-Sao is in itself a artificial scenario (both people facing each other within punching distance, in a training stance, making contact with both arms in specific ways, etc.) that is hardly replicated in sparring. Being in this exact scenario is not what we would want to do anyways... Replicating this in sparring is not its goal... It creates a positional/timing/force-exchange environment in which specific skills and habits can be trained when Chi-Sao is performed with the appropriate focus. Within this view, the reason why such a competition is pointless is because the purpose of the artificial setting of the drill is lost... You get lost on the finger pointing at the moon...

If the bottomline of Ving Tsun is to remain fighting, why "test" the results of the method through competitions that don't emphasize the bottomline? The proper arena for comparisons of skill is not Chi-Sao, but actual sparring or fighting. That's where all your training shines through or fails to do so. K1 and other fighting contests are a good step in that direction. Some people talk about rooftop fights being myth, legend, a thing of the past... I think the guys that participated in those were quite a bit more honest in comparing their skills than people nowadays... "Chi-Sao champions"... There was no such talk back then...

[GlennR]

The clips show Philipp teaching: varying pressure on his student, emphasizing position, timing, opportunities, etc. They are not about Philipp himself, but about the coaching that is taking place, the drilling of habits and body mechanics... Doubt about his or his student's abilities? Pay him/them a visit...


Rubbish, lots of them show him showing his skilz on his students and thats fine IMO. Just dont rain on someone elses parade when they want to do the same.

Oh, and he/his students can come and pay me a visit whenever they like (childish reply that isnt it?)


Chi-Sao is an educational tool within the setting of progressive training. Chi-Sao is in itself a artificial scenario (both people facing each other within punching distance, in a training stance, making contact with both arms in specific ways, etc.) that is hardly replicated in sparring. Being in this exact scenario is not what we would want to do anyways... Replicating this in sparring is not its goal... It creates a positional/timing/force-exchange environment in which specific skills and habits can be trained when Chi-Sao is performed with the appropriate focus. Within this view, the reason why such a competition is pointless is because the purpose of the artificial setting of the drill is lost...

Thanks ever so much for that information. My knowledge of Chi-sao is complete now


You get lost on the finger pointing at the moon...


Yes, we've all read that WSL quote... thanks for the reminder


If the bottomline of Ving Tsun is to remain fighting, why "test" the results of the method through competitions that don't emphasize the bottomline? The proper arena for comparisons of skill is not Chi-Sao, but actual sparring or fighting.

Then why is chi-sao first and foremost in the PB clips?

[QUOTE]That's where all your training shines through or fails to do so. K1 and other fighting contests are a good step in that direction. Some people talk about rooftop fights being myth, legend, a thing of the past... I think the guys that participated in those were quite a bit more honest in comparing their skills than people nowadays... "Chi-Sao champions"... There was no such talk back then..


If Alan and his guys only did Chi-sao comps you would have a case, but he doesnt. They fight in the events you mentioned (and others) AND do chi-sao competitions, as they see value in them. I give them credit for that.

I'll take the point of view of guys that FIGHT rather than guys that sit and criticize people that do something that different, and IMO, progressive

[Buddha_Fist]

Rubbish, lots of them show him showing his skilz on his students and thats fine IMO. Just dont rain on someone elses parade when they want to do the same.

Oh, and he/his students can come and pay me a visit whenever they like (childish reply that isnt it?)

Thanks ever so much for that information. My knowledge of Chi-sao is complete now

Yes, we've all read that WSL quote... thanks for the reminder

Then why is chi-sao first and foremost in the PB clips?

If Alan and his guys only did Chi-sao comps you would have a case, but he doesnt. They fight in the events you mentioned (and others) AND do chi-sao competitions, as they see value in them. I give them credit for that.

I'll take the point of view of guys that FIGHT rather than guys that sit and criticize people that do something that different, and IMO, progressive

Your whole post is rubbish, now what? :rolleyes:

[GlennR]

Your whole post is rubbish, now what? :rolleyes:

Is that an old WSL quote as well? Or did you think that one up all by yourself

[Buddha_Fist]

Is that an old WSL quote as well? Or did you think that one up all by yourself

The WSL quote was rather fitting in the given context. ;)

I give Alan props for participating in K1 events, but disagree on it even making sense to do Chi-Sao competitions. The reason given was straight-forward. Don't agree and cannot take differing opinions? Whine and complain about opinions "raining on someone else's parade"? Then don't post on a forum that has the intent of exchanging views.

And no, the invitation to visit and cross hands is not childish. Au contraire, it takes being a grown up to do so. Questions are quickly answered instead of going down the hole of writing for pages past each other just to go nowhere.

[JPinAZ]

sigh...another chi-sao competitior, obviously people cant see the underlying ideas in clips, they project their own limited perceptions and get COMPETITION :o

Again, the troll talks about something he hasn't a clue - I think most chi sau comps are rubbish and would never 'compete' in one as it has no real emphasis on demonstratable fights skills no matter how you approach it. So, to call me a 'chi-sao competitor' makes you look like an even bigger idiot than you've already been giong for these past couple years.

And the typical taan/bong/fook chi sau rolling platform for 'skill development' that is focused on so heavily as a major part of the training in most schools is also a large waste of time IMO *GASP *. It's an unrealistic training tool that only focuses on one small aspect/situation/timeframe in a fight and doesn't develop the correct tools needed for the real world (because it skips the most important aspect - dealing with the initial attack and engagement). If people spent even QUARTER the time sparring that they do playing patty cake chi sau, WC would have a much better rep than it does. And you would stop all this PB nutriding and start speaking from your own skills and experiences for once ;)
-------------------------
And to get back on topic: Alan, congrats to your guys on the wins.

[k gledhill]

Again, the troll talks about something he hasn't a clue - I think most chi sau comps are rubbish and would never 'compete' in one as it has no real emphasis on demonstratable fights skills no matter how you approach it. So, to call me a 'chi-sao competitor' makes you look like an even bigger idiot than you've already been giong for these past couple years.

And the typical taan/bong/fook chi sau rolling platform for 'skill development' that is focused on so heavily as a major part of the training in most schools is also a large waste of time IMO *GASP *. It's an unrealistic training tool that only focuses on one small aspect/situation/timeframe in a fight and doesn't develop the correct tools needed for the real world (because it skips the most important aspect - dealing with the initial attack and engagement). If people spent even QUARTER the time sparring that they do playing patty cake chi sau, WC would have a much better rep than it does. And you would stop all this PB nutriding and start speaking from your own skills and experiences for once ;)
-------------------------
And to get back on topic: Alan, congrats to your guys on the wins.

The more you post, the less you reveal you know and understand, keep it up.

[GlennR]

The WSL quote was rather fitting in the given context. ;)

If dragging up old comments floats your boat, go for your life.


I give Alan props for participating in K1 events, but disagree on it even making sense to do Chi-Sao competitions. The reason given was straight-forward. Don't agree and cannot take differing opinions? Whine and complain about opinions "raining on someone else's parade"? Then don't post on a forum that has the intent of exchanging views.

I'll try again.
Alan's guys fight, they are fighters..... they participate in fights.
When a fighter says "i think there is merit in competing in a certain aspect of our training (ergo Chi-Sao) then i (as in me) will take that on board, before i take the advice of guys that dont fight, yet feel they can tell a fighter that he is "doing it wrong".

Your take on Chi-Sao is YOUR take, his is HIS..... why do you feel you can tell him he is basically wrong in his approach?
What results do you have otherwise to enhance your argument?

And FWIW, old sayings from WSL and re-hashed chi-sao descriptions dont count as evidence IMO


And no, the invitation to visit and cross hands is not childish. Au contraire, it takes being a grown up to do so. Questions are quickly answered instead of going down the hole of writing for pages past each other just to go nowhere.

An invitation isnt childish, but little quips on an internet forum are.

Incidentally, i took part in a Kulo seminar only last saturday (Imperialtaichi)and happened to do a bit of training with a direct WSL guy that was there, previously cross trained with plenty of WSL guys and various other lineages (5)
so if you want to compare EXPERIENCE, then im more than happy to discuss

[Buddha_Fist]

If dragging up old comments floats your boat, go for your life.

I'll try again...

(plenty of blah with little substance)





Cannot... take.. differing... opinions!


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Science/pix/2007/08/16/yawn_4.jpg

[Phil Redmond]

LOL at you accusing anyone else of being the smartar$e, Kev.

Tell us how again how chi sao comps are useless then post another clip of Mr Bayer beating guys at chi sao as evidence of how bada$$ your method is.
Andrew, you and I both know that there are people good at chi sao but can't fight. Too many WC people gauge real life combat on chi sao. Plus, most chi sao demos, including mine don't show the student really trying to hit back for real. I have some with me and my student Sifu Rahsun Herkul but have never posted them to the public. The clips I've seen have the Sifu dominating and the student being complacent. The fact is that even a Sifu can get hit in CS if the student is advanced and really trying to hit back.

[k gledhill]

Andrew, you and I both know that there are people good at chi sao but can't fight. Too many WC people gauge real life combat on chi sao. Plus, most chi sao demos, including mine don't show the student really trying to hit back for real. I have some with me and my student Sifu Rahsun Herkul but have never posted them to the public. The clips I've seen have the Sifu dominating and the student being complacent. The fact is that even a Sifu can get hit in CS if the student is advanced and really trying to hit back.

I agree, I have met a lot of guys ( some chi-sao champs :rolleyes: some with years and years of sticking hands training) who are great when you allow contact within a prescribed drilling platform, emphasis on ALLOWING CONTACT. Once I ask them to fight and simply step away and start striking, moving kicking at speed....yeah, the contact based sticky thing falls apart REAL QUICK. Chi-sao is a bridge, not the destination...
When I test students, it is by sparring them, bad balanced responses, over chasing fast hand attacks, turning too much, too little....under fighting pressure. Try sticking hands to a boxers combo in a basic stance.

[Graham H]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1197862
Alan's guys fight, they are fighters..... they participate in fights.
[/QUOTE]

Correction!

Alan's guys fight in competitions, they train to fight in competitions. They participate in competitions. You may argue that its more than a lot of people do on here (including me) but in my experience it doesn't really mean much in the real world. I have seen "trained" fighters get an ass whooping in a street fight.

I remember one specific instance in Northern Ireland where a well known MMA fighter got a shoeing outside a club in Derry. Ok there was alcohol involved but the other guy was just a brawler.

You guys can argue all you like about pretty much irrelevant stuff (IMO) but nobody is really fighting on here. Just more talking and chest beating.

In fact until any of us meet and have a proper scrap who can judge who?

We can just keep going round and round in circles batting words back and forth or tell each other how many trophies we have and proven fighters in our camps.

I don't personally care. I find it all amusing.

Nobody cares anyway. Anuslich said so and he's number 1 :)

GH

[GlennR]

I agree, I have met a lot of guys ( some chi-sao champs :rolleyes: some with years and years of sticking hands training) who are great when you allow contact within a prescribed drilling platform, emphasis on ALLOWING CONTACT. Once I ask them to fight and simply step away and start striking, moving kicking at speed....yeah, the contact based sticky thing falls apart REAL QUICK. Chi-sao is a bridge, not the destination...
When I test students, it is by sparring them, bad balanced responses, over chasing fast hand attacks, turning too much, too little....under fighting pressure. Try sticking hands to a boxers combo in a basic stance.

All good points Kev, but id ask one question.

How many good WC fighters do you know that are not good at chi-sao?

[GlennR]

Alan's guys fight in competitions, they train to fight in competitions. They participate in competitions. You may argue that its more than a lot of people do on here (including me) but in my experience it doesn't really mean much in the real world. I have seen "trained" fighters get an ass whooping in a street fight.

Fair points G, but whats the alternative?


I remember one specific instance in Northern Ireland where a well known MMA fighter got a shoeing outside a club in Derry. Ok there was alcohol involved but the other guy was just a brawler.

That can happen in the ring as well, some guys just "have it"


In fact until any of us meet and have a proper scrap who can judge who?

Well the Ashes is on next year and we'll be judging you lot then ;)


We can just keep going round and round in circles batting words back and forth or tell each other how many trophies we have and proven fighters in our camps.

I don't personally care. I find it all amusing.

Nobody cares anyway. Anuslich said so and he's number 1 :)


Yeh, but its fun though :)
GH[/QUOTE]

[Alan Orr]

Again, the troll talks about something he hasn't a clue - I think most chi sau comps are rubbish and would never 'compete' in one as it has no real emphasis on demonstratable fights skills no matter how you approach it. So, to call me a 'chi-sao competitor' makes you look like an even bigger idiot than you've already been giong for these past couple years.

And the typical taan/bong/fook chi sau rolling platform for 'skill development' that is focused on so heavily as a major part of the training in most schools is also a large waste of time IMO *GASP *. It's an unrealistic training tool that only focuses on one small aspect/situation/timeframe in a fight and doesn't develop the correct tools needed for the real world (because it skips the most important aspect - dealing with the initial attack and engagement). If people spent even QUARTER the time sparring that they do playing patty cake chi sau, WC would have a much better rep than it does. And you would stop all this PB nutriding and start speaking from your own skills and experiences for once ;)
-------------------------
And to get back on topic: Alan, congrats to your guys on the wins.

Thanks I will pass it on to the guys.

In terms of chi sao events etc - 'no real emphasis on demonstratable fights skills'

Thats the point its not a demo of fighting skills. It is using fighting skills under some pressure.

Is it limited? - yes of course. But is it a good test of basic skills we use in a fight - of course. Power control, balance, timing. I think so.

[Alan Orr]

Andrew, you and I both know that there are people good at chi sao but can't fight. Too many WC people gauge real life combat on chi sao. Plus, most chi sao demos, including mine don't show the student really trying to hit back for real. I have some with me and my student Sifu Rahsun Herkul but have never posted them to the public. The clips I've seen have the Sifu dominating and the student being complacent. The fact is that even a Sifu can get hit in CS if the student is advanced and really trying to hit back.

Phil you are always the voice of reason. You have my respect.

[Alan Orr]

Correction!

Alan's guys fight in competitions, they train to fight in competitions. They participate in competitions. You may argue that its more than a lot of people do on here (including me) but in my experience it doesn't really mean much in the real world. I have seen "trained" fighters get an ass whooping in a street fight.

I remember one specific instance in Northern Ireland where a well known MMA fighter got a shoeing outside a club in Derry. Ok there was alcohol involved but the other guy was just a brawler.

You guys can argue all you like about pretty much irrelevant stuff (IMO) but nobody is really fighting on here. Just more talking and chest beating.

In fact until any of us meet and have a proper scrap who can judge who?

We can just keep going round and round in circles batting words back and forth or tell each other how many trophies we have and proven fighters in our camps.

I don't personally care. I find it all amusing.

Nobody cares anyway. Anuslich said so and he's number 1 :)

GH

Fighting in a MMA fight is very much the real world. A street fight may be harder or easier. But take a guy that does demo chi sao with his friends and take a guy that trains hard, does chi sao, does glove sparring and pushes his skill under pressure and fights in a few comps - who do you think has more of a chance in the real world of the street. I even the made up world of the ring/cage?

[Alan Orr]

LOL at you accusing anyone else of being the smartar$e, Kev.

Tell us how again how chi sao comps are useless then post another clip of Mr Bayer beating guys at chi sao as evidence of how bada$$ your method is.

Yes very true. I must say and it is only my view. Chi Sao where all you do is switch and chain punch guys that are feeding is just a demo of just that. It is not dealing with body movement of the real world as some go on about.

In the 'real world' if you go in chain punching in a street fight you will be eating a good few hooks to the head. That sort of demo shows nothing of great value to me.

[Alan Orr]

I agree, I have met a lot of guys ( some chi-sao champs :rolleyes: some with years and years of sticking hands training) who are great when you allow contact within a prescribed drilling platform, emphasis on ALLOWING CONTACT. Once I ask them to fight and simply step away and start striking, moving kicking at speed....yeah, the contact based sticky thing falls apart REAL QUICK. Chi-sao is a bridge, not the destination...
When I test students, it is by sparring them, bad balanced responses, over chasing fast hand attacks, turning too much, too little....under fighting pressure. Try sticking hands to a boxers combo in a basic stance.

Yes this is true. But you always post chain punching chi sao clips or guys with full head gear chain punching each other - plus guys sparring as such with no range control and no balance. Weird.

[k gledhill]

Yes this is true. But you always post chain punching chi sao clips or guys with full head gear chain punching each other - plus guys sparring as such with no range control and no balance. Weird.

I post a lot of clips from a wide range of people. You're saying they all have bad range skills and no balance ?

[Alan Orr]

I post a lot of clips from a wide range of people. You're saying they all have bad range skills and no balance ?

Kev I don't read your threads so I can't really say. I am just aware of some of the clips you normally post on my threads to remind us of what you think works. I not interested too be honest as I don't have the time to waste.

[anerlich]

I agree, I have met a lot of guys ( some chi-sao champs :rolleyes: some with years and years of sticking hands training) who are great when you allow contact within a prescribed drilling platform, emphasis on ALLOWING CONTACT. Once I ask them to fight and simply step away and start striking, moving kicking at speed....yeah, the contact based sticky thing falls apart REAL QUICK. Chi-sao is a bridge, not the destination...
When I test students, it is by sparring them, bad balanced responses, over chasing fast hand attacks, turning too much, too little....under fighting pressure. Try sticking hands to a boxers combo in a basic stance.

That's fascinating, but my point is that you keep posting clips of Phil Bayer doing what is pretty much competitive chi sao with students as evidence of fighting competence, but then say Alan is clueless for arranging to do the same thing in a public situation.

Perhaps you have posted different clips since, but after about 100 of the first, competitive chi sao, I stopped bothering with your clips, seen one seen 'em all.


WSL: Combat experience is more important than any other thing.

Except when it comes to posting vids, apparently.

you're more interesting when you lurk, Graham.

[anerlich]

sigh...another chi-sao competitior, obviously people cant see the underlying ideas in clips, they project their own limited perceptions and get COMPETITION

They're doing chi sao, Bayer's beating on the other guy, the other guy's trying not to get hit ... but it's not a chi sao comp. sure.

Maybe we'd get the underlying idea if Phil ddidn't make it look EXACTLY LIKE A CHI SAO comp, only different ...

Pearls before swine? Possible, but the Emperor's New Clothes is much more likely.

And if he is another chi sao competitor, good for him.

[k gledhill]

That's fascinating, but my point is that you keep posting clips of Phil Bayer doing what is pretty much competitive chi sao with students as evidence of fighting competence, but then say Alan is clueless for arranging to do the same thing in a public situation.

Perhaps you have posted different clips since, but after about 100 of the first, competitive chi sao, I stopped bothering with your clips, seen one seen 'em all.



Except when it comes to posting vids, apparently.

you're more interesting when you lurk, Graham.

Frankly I dont think you understand the concept of the drills ....no surprise, its a mystery to many and will stay that way with your outlook...

[Alan Orr]

Frankly I dont think you understand the concept of the drills ....no surprise, its a mystery to many and will stay that way with your outlook...

You think other wing chun branches don't understand drills? That is rich. lol Drills are basic. You drill an armbar in BJJ, then you try to do on someone that is not just standing still. That is where you learn the concept. The drill was the principle not the concept.

[AdrianK]

Correction!

Alan's guys fight in competitions, they train to fight in competitions. They participate in competitions. You may argue that its more than a lot of people do on here (including me) but in my experience it doesn't really mean much in the real world. I have seen "trained" fighters get an ass whooping in a street fight.

Your perspective is very narrow. That you have seen trained fighters get "whooped" in a street fight doesn't mean that they're not competent fighters in the street. It means that street fights have an element of unpredictability.

But what you're saying is that you've seen trained fighters lose to nobodies, so their preparedness for street fights must be crap?

There are so many variables to consider in situations like that. I would suggest you rethink your stance.

Because I honestly believe if you re-evaluate your experiences where you saw "trained fighters get whooped", you would realize that it can and does happen to the best of fighters, street or competition.

Doesn't mean competition fighters are less prepared for the street. It just means that like all of us, they're human beings who cannot react perfectly 100% of the time.



Anyways, Congrats Alan! It is no small feat to win any competition, let alone something with the prestige of K1. Awesome job.

[Alan Orr]

Your perspective is very narrow. That you have seen trained fighters get "whooped" in a street fight doesn't mean that they're not competent fighters in the street. It means that street fights have an element of unpredictability.

But what you're saying is that you've seen trained fighters lose to nobodies, so their preparedness for street fights must be crap?

There are so many variables to consider in situations like that. I would suggest you rethink your stance.

Because I honestly believe if you re-evaluate your experiences where you saw "trained fighters get whooped", you would realize that it can and does happen to the best of fighters, street or competition.

Doesn't mean competition fighters are less prepared for the street. It just means that like all of us, they're human beings who cannot react perfectly 100% of the time.



Anyways, Congrats Alan! It is no small feat to win any competition, let alone something with the prestige of K1. Awesome job.

Nice to read your post, as least I know some people are on the same page. I am sure more are with us on that. But on forums we often more of the crazies posting that the normal guys lol. Many thanks.

[JPinAZ]

You think other wing chun branches don't understand drills? That is rich. lol Drills are basic.

Agreed. I think Kev is pretty much in Troll mode for the past few years. no point talking to him anymore


You drill an armbar in BJJ, then you try to do on someone that is not just standing still. That is where you learn the concept. The drill was the principle not the concept.

Actually, by reading this, I would say you are not clear on what concept/princple means. In your example, drilling an arm bar is drilling a technique only. In this case it is neither concept or principle - it's just technique

It's only when you focus on and understand how/when you apply it and what theory is behind how you get there that allows you to understand and drill the concepts based upon given principles - and you can focus on these at the both the drilling level and in sparring.
Or you can just drill/spar techniques alone without any concept/principle.

[Alan Orr]

Agreed. I think Kev is pretty much in Troll mode for the past few years. no point talking to him anymore



Actually, by reading this, I would say you are not clear on what concept/princple means. In your example, drilling an arm bar is drilling a technique only. In this case it is neither concept or principle - it's just technique

It's only when you focus on and understand how/when you apply it and what theory is behind how you get there that allows you to understand and drill the concepts based upon given principles - and you can focus on these at the both the drilling level and in sparring.
Or you can just drill/spar techniques alone without any concept/principle.

My bad, yes agree, was being lazy or bored.

application = armbar
Principle = Position, angle, base etc
Concept = principles in place - how depending on timing, feedback, and so on.

[anerlich]

Frankly I dont think you understand the concept of the drills

Frankly I don't GAF about your opinions about my opinions.

What I DEFINITELY don't understand is why you post with huge fanfare and enormous volume video "evidence" of your teachers' prowess (his trouncing students in chi sao duels), and then in the same breath saying chi sao comps are crap.

I make no judgement of Bayer's skills, which may well be excellent. He might even win Alan's chi sao comp if he entered.:rolleyes:

I just continue to wonder at the deep contradictions between what you say and the vids you post.

[k gledhill]

Frankly I don't GAF about your opinions about my opinions.

What I DEFINITELY don't understand is why you post with huge fanfare and enormous volume video "evidence" of your teachers' prowess (his trouncing students in chi sao duels), and then in the same breath saying chi sao comps are crap.

I make no judgement of Bayer's skills, which may well be excellent. He might even win Alan's chi sao comp if he entered.:rolleyes:

I just continue to wonder at the deep contradictions between what you say and the vids you post.

Keep wondering , you're not getting any help from me to change that.

[anerlich]

Keep wondering , you're not getting any help from me to change that.

You're not helping me (not wanted, thanks anyway) or your own credibility.

[Alan Orr]

Frankly I don't GAF about your opinions about my opinions.

What I DEFINITELY don't understand is why you post with huge fanfare and enormous volume video "evidence" of your teachers' prowess (his trouncing students in chi sao duels), and then in the same breath saying chi sao comps are crap.

I make no judgement of Bayer's skills, which may well be excellent. He might even win Alan's chi sao comp if he entered.:rolleyes:

I just continue to wonder at the deep contradictions between what you say and the vids you post.

Great post. I also don't understand why Kev and Graham go on and on about chi sao when the clips they show are just demo of chi sao and chain punching. Also all this talk of WSL old days of fighting and testing etc. Well is that not an example of developing his skill and testing it himself.

[k gledhill]

You're not helping me (not wanted, thanks anyway) or your own credibility.

:rolleyes:............whatever.

[JamesC]

Alan,

Just wanted to say that he looked great.

Even to the untrained(wing chun) eye he seems to be attacking the center FROM his center more than most fighters. Just an observation.

[Alan Orr]

Alan,

Just wanted to say that he looked great.

Even to the untrained(wing chun) eye he seems to be attacking the center FROM his center more than most fighters. Just an observation.

Thanks James. It is very refreshing to hear others getting the point and being able to see the skill. Excellent.

[mun hung]

K-1 is quite respectable. Good fight. Congrats to your guy.