No Style [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

sanjuro_ronin

11-23-2012, 07:21 AM

World English Dictionary
style (staɪl)

— n
1. a form of appearance, design, or production; type or make: a new style of house
2. the way in which something is done: good or bad style
3. the manner in which something is expressed or performed, considered as separate from its intrinsic content, meaning, etc
4. a distinctive, formal, or characteristic manner of expression in words, music, painting, etc
5. elegance or refinement of manners, dress, etc
6. prevailing fashion in dress, looks, etc
7. a fashionable or ostentatious mode of existence: to live in style
8. the particular mode of orthography, punctuation, design, etc, followed in a book, journal, etc, or in a printing or publishing house
9. chiefly ( Brit ) the distinguishing title or form of address of a person or firm
10. botany the stalk of a carpel, bearing the stigma
11. zoology a slender pointed structure, such as the piercing mouthparts of certain insects
12. Old Style See New Style a method of expressing or calculating dates
13. another word for stylus
14. the arm of a sundial

In short, everything we do has a style.

SPJ

11-23-2012, 07:45 AM

Some like cha cha. Some like salsa.

Some like jazz. Some like blues.

Some like country. Some like rock and roll.

Preferred methods.

People like to group or categorize things and ways of doing things.

-N-

11-23-2012, 08:43 AM

Why can we train like this - no style? Your thought?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLkqwQrCS8

Nice video.

But doesn't every kung fu have this? Style is not just the technique, but also how you setup and execute the techniques.

That said, the demo has a very strong look of Zhao Da Yun's stuff that he shows in his book.

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Chin-Na-Detailed-Analysis/dp/0865681759/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353684921&sr=1-1&keywords=practical+chin+na

Especially the tight contact and leg and body control in how they execute. Very different from Yang Jwing Ming, for example.

ZDY has background in Ba Gua, and trained the police. Is that his Ba Gua showing through?

YouKnowWho

11-23-2012, 01:39 PM

That clip shows "no style". When people talk about styles, they should do the same techniques in that clip and see if their bodies can do it any differently.

If you get a train partner, you and your training partnet drills 8 techniques from that clip 100 times daily, can you digest all the information in that clip within 6 month?

-N-

11-23-2012, 01:52 PM

If you get a train partner, you and your training partnet drills 8 techniques from that clip 100 times daily, can you digest all the information in that clip within 6 month?

Good start, but probably will still be finding out new things after 6 months.

When my teacher had us start work on kicking more, he had us pair up and do circling and pivoting steps, and only shin kicks. We had to do that for many weeks.

YouKnowWho

11-23-2012, 02:27 PM

To just master the hip throw may take more than 6 months. After 6 months, one should feel that he owns the techniques. Whether he can make it work in combat depend on how hard that he may try.

You don't have to spend 5 years in solo form training and wait for you zhoutian to be open before you can drill combat techniques with your partner.

-N-

11-23-2012, 02:35 PM

-N-

11-23-2012, 02:48 PM

That clip shows "no style". When people talk about styles, they should do the same techniques in that clip and see if their bodies can do it any differently.

There can be style differences in the details of execution.

Compare to YJM, for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7hAN8bdSYA&feature=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5iNcjw_PZM&feature=relmfu

The police version shows more continuos transfer of control points back and forth from hand, arm, torso, hip, and knees. Also more spiraling combined with dropping straight lines.

Same techniques from my teacher would show more short relaxed snapping reversals and waist short force and monkey step coordinated with the breaks.

Same basic techniques but minor style variation in execution. And of course, Praying Mantis for setup.

YouKnowWho

11-23-2012, 03:16 PM

Here is a good example between "style" and "no style". In YJM's clip at 0.48,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7hAN8bdSYA&feature=endscreen

if his right hand lock on his own left arm or his opponent's right arm, he can take his opponent's down by that "elbow lock". Because he tries to express "style flavor", his right hand move toward his opponent's throat instead. He then tried to demo how Taiji moves can be used in combat.

YJM tried to map Taiji into combat. To me, that's extra burden. I prefer to train combat skill from day 1 without having to worry about style flavor but direct effectness.

bawang

11-23-2012, 04:24 PM

YJM tried to map Taiji into combat. To me, that's extra burden. I prefer to train combat skill from day 1 without having to worry about style flavor but direct effectness.

he tries to map taiji push hands into combat. taijiquan is chen village hong quan. theres no burden.

Syn7

11-23-2012, 05:35 PM

I'm a B-Boy and I used to teach at a dance center in my town. We would get adults and kids. At first it was a small class and a friend of mine was running it. As it grew and more young kids came he needed to separate the class into a teen/adult class and a kids class. I took over the kids class for a while. When I would teach, I taught all the moves I'm sure you've all seen. Because they were so young we focused on standup and when they got the UpRock down, then we would teach them how to throw down. UpRock is probably the aspect of the dance that has the most unique and individual flavor because of the sheer amount of options. Anyways, I taught the moves but encouraged my kids to develop their own style and not to just do exactly what I do. At first they had to do it my way to get the timing and the positioning right. But once they got that down, I was all about having them experiment with it and develop their own distinct versions of the dance as a whole.

My point is that when it comes to style and flavor, it really is about the individual. Ofcourse you have to emulate your teachers to get the moves right, but once you are proficient I encourage people to do a lil self searching and variation in order to find the best way to execute the moves while maintaining the basic fundamentals. I use this in all aspects of life. Whether I'm prototyping an electronic device, spinning on my head or drilling MA's.

It doesn't work for you, you work for it in order to make it work for you. Know what I mean?

Syn7

11-23-2012, 05:58 PM

Why can we train like this - no style? Your thought?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLkqwQrCS8

That's awesome, John.

Anyone who grapples knows that the video showed effective techniques, for the most part. To me, it's about what works. I've never felt the need to stay true to any one style. I respect my CMA Sifu and I will leave my own ideas at the door when I am taking instruction. But on the street, you will never see me drop into a stance and wait to be attacked. I move a lot. I'm not a big guy, my strong point is speed and agility. As an acrobat and a BBoy, I learned that finesse was my forte, not brute force.

SIFU RON

11-23-2012, 06:12 PM

Why can we train like this - no style? Your thought?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLkqwQrCS8

This is an excellent example of tradional Jiu-Jitsu , very good moves that work well.

Thank you.

Syn7

11-23-2012, 06:30 PM

And after they throw eachother around, they let off some steam with a lil bit of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_bxGkcL728&feature=fvwrel

YouKnowWho

11-23-2012, 09:22 PM

he tries to map taiji push hands into combat. taijiquan is chen village hong quan. theres no burden.

Trying to map any move in any TCMA form to application is always a "burden". Why not just go direct to application? Which style of which form has a groin kick followed by a face punch? Why should you care? Just do it and put it into your form if you want to.

omarthefish

11-24-2012, 08:51 PM

And after they throw eachother around, they let off some steam with a lil bit of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_bxGkcL728&feature=fvwrel

And you know it had to happen eventually:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6A7xnv6mQk

bawang

11-24-2012, 10:45 PM

Trying to map any move in any TCMA form to application is always a "burden". Why not just go direct to application?

because i like the culture and deep history of the forms.

YouKnowWho

11-24-2012, 11:46 PM

because i like the culture and deep history of the forms.

Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don't we just create culture and history today?

Kellen Bassette

11-25-2012, 06:18 AM

Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don't we just create culture and history today?

I think of that a lot...I'm pretty intrigued by original techniques and ancient forms too...but if I develop a form today and teach many students, in 3 generations it will probably be considered traditional...at one point they were all modern concoctions.

David Jamieson

11-25-2012, 07:50 AM

Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don't we just create culture and history today?

We are creating culture and history today, but like most fish, we don't know we're in water.

bawang

11-25-2012, 12:12 PM

Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don't we just create culture and history today?

because i have love for what my ancestors created. its my duty to uphold the culture and values of my people.

YouKnowWho

11-25-2012, 01:58 PM

Forms are more intelligent than martial arts fads.
Not necessary!

If you spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily, it won't take long for you to figure out what you like to do and what you don't like to do. You then look back your forms and you may find out that you only apply 10% information from your form. What's wrong with the other 90% of your form? If you will never use the other 90% of your form in spar/wrestling then why spend time to train it?

If you always use front kick to move in, when your opponent

- refuses to move back his leading leg, you sweep his leg. You then use his leading arm to jam his back arm, and punch his head.
- moves back his leading leg, you roundhouse kick his belly. You then jab and cross at your opponent's head.

Whether your kick, sweep, or roundhouse kick work or not, you get your opponent to pay attention on your legs. This will give you a better chance to set up your punches.

Now you have 2 combos with 4 moves that can map into combat reality without any modification. If you link these 2 combos as 8 moves sequence, you get yourself a new solo form.

- What's the difference between this new form vs. your other TCMA forms?
- Why such combo cannot be found in any TCMA forms (at least I haven't found yet)?
- Do you prefer to spend more training time in this new form or your TCMA forms?
- What style should you call your 8 moves new form?
- Does it matter whether you connect combo 2 after combo 1, or combo 1 after combo 2?
- Will people consider your 8 moves sequence as TCMA form 1000 years from today?
- Will you call the new 8 moves sequence have more intelligent than the TCMA forms or the other way around?

Onething for sure is, if everybody train these 8 moves sequence, nobody will say that TCMA is not combat effective.

Robinhood

11-25-2012, 02:43 PM

Why can we train like this - no style? Your thought?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLkqwQrCS8

I guess you need to know the difference between style, art and combat, and what they mean and how they apply to your training.

(not sport which is another category of its own creation)

pazman

11-25-2012, 03:21 PM

Forms are more intelligent than martial arts fads.

What do you consider martial arts fads?

Why should those outside of China not consider forms as martial arts fads?

Syn7

11-25-2012, 05:51 PM

Whatever that we do today, 1000 years from now will become culture and history. Why don't we just create culture and history today?

Actually, whatever we do today creates culture and history today. Moment to moment. It's helpful to have a long outlook on life, but you also need to hit up the other end of that spectrum for true understanding.

Syn7

11-25-2012, 05:55 PM

Forms are more intelligent than martial arts fads.

Wait, lemme guess...... :rolleyes:

This is starting to get real old, guys. It's starting to look like jealousy with a strong dish of excuses. Old isn't better.

If my assumption is wrong, I appologize for jumping to conclusions. Tell me I'm wrong? Name your pet peeve fad!

YouKnowWho

11-25-2012, 06:39 PM

Is old always better than the modern?

Here is the old Tantui #1 - elbow strike, hook punch, groin kick, face punch 4 moves combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TouNy4Rvg_0

Here is the modern front kick, foot sweep, push leaging arm to jam back arm, head lock 4 moves combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POr5jnJQVns

Will you say that old is always better than the modern?

Principle is the mother of technique.

Should form be abstract or concrete? The "hip throw" and "shoulder throw" have similiar body motion. Both require to bend upper body down. The only difference is the hands position. If your form has a forward bending move that can be mapped into either hip throw or shoulder throw, do you want to maintain the level of abstraction so it can cover both throws, or should you just map into either hip throw or shoulder throw but not both?

YouKnowWho

11-25-2012, 08:17 PM

Form should be abstract. The motion should be applicable to any combat.
You may look at this only from the "striking art" point of view. For a fist punch, palm strike, finger jab, your arm will move pretty much the same way. Whether you stand in your opponent's front door or side door, whether you and your opponent have the same side forward or different side forward, it won't make much different as long as your hand can reach to your opponent's face.

For hip throw and shoulder throw, your feet may move and turn exactly the same way, but your hand position are complete different.

For

- hip throw, one of your arm should warp one of your opponent's leading arms, your other arm should wrap your opponent's waist.
- shoulder throw, both of your hand should control your opponent's leading arm.

If your form has a body bending forward motion, without the detail hand movement, no matter how many times that you may train your solo form, you will never be able to apply either hip throw or shoulder throw.

daiyoshida

11-26-2012, 11:17 AM

I usually just browse and snicker but I'm getting tired of the same old argument based on misconceptions on both sides. There is nothing old about exacting forms just as there is nothing new about no-form instinct method. Both have been around since the beginning of time and have been the favorite methods of dead soldiers.

Practicing forms blindly thinking that it will create some mystical power is silly, just as silly as assuming that spending years wearing gloves and hopping around with another guy wearing gloves will have any usefulness against a group of home invasion robbers much less in an actual military conflict.

Consider this, the soviet military training used methods surprisingly similar to Bagua Qigung. No inordinate emphasis on forms, no gloves, no "Sparring". Just simple exercises. These guys went to war and came back alive.

You're free to take classes and enjoy yourselves. But you need to remember that schools are businesses. They make money teaching you what you demand. Not what you actually need. Some people wants to learn forms and some people wants to spar. Nobody will pay good money to become soldiers.

EarthDragon

11-26-2012, 12:14 PM

YKW

If your form has a body bending forward motion, without the detail hand movement, no matter how many times that you may train your solo form, you will never be able to apply either hip throw or shoulder throw.

truth. not only will you not understand the execution or placment of the hands on your opponent i.e above or below the elbow for shoulder throw or where on the waist to grab for the best leverage, you will also never obtain the muscle, mental or celluar memory.

YouKnowWho

11-26-2012, 12:15 PM

There is nothing old about exacting forms just as there is nothing new about no-form instinct method.

No style means you start with application. You learn

- groin kick, face punch because it's effective combo in combat, it's not because that combo exist in your form.
- hip throw because it's the mother of all throws, it's not because there is a body bending move in your form that look like hip throw.

You go to school. Your teacher teaches you

1. 10 moves form. He then explains application for all those 10 moves.
2. 10 applications. You then link those 10 moves into a logical sequence yourself.

The end result of these 2 approaches may be the same but the starting points are different. The major difference here is by using the 1st approach, your learning material is restricted by your forms. By using the 2nd approach, your learning material will have no limitation.

bawang

11-26-2012, 01:36 PM

pazman

11-26-2012, 05:54 PM

Consider this, the soviet military training used methods surprisingly similar to Bagua Qigung. No inordinate emphasis on forms, no gloves, no "Sparring". Just simple exercises. These guys went to war and came back alive.

Wut?

http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/fantasyland.jpg?w=498

Syn7

11-26-2012, 06:51 PM

you will also never obtain the muscle, mental or celluar memory.

Very good point. This is why wrestlers have retard strength. It's also important to train somewhat realistically. Wrestlers are so used to the game that they turtle in MMA when they should roll to their back.

Syn7

11-26-2012, 06:52 PM

Russian military does application and sparring. Don't be silly. Do some research.

EarthDragon

11-26-2012, 06:57 PM

thanks syn7.

Very good point. This is why wrestlers have retard strength. It's also important to train somewhat realistically. Wrestlers are so used to the game that they turtle in MMA when they should roll to their back.

if you dotn train realistically you cannot convey the information you have to motion efficently.

the way you train is the way you fight, so naturally you will reult to your dicipline. even when drunken style you have a few LOl

Syn7

11-26-2012, 07:03 PM

And that is why so many styles got away with not having any concept of a ground game and very simple standing grappling. Sometimes you get stuck in your bubble and it can be a serious reality check when venturing outside your comfort zone. I just hope people figure it out by expanding their minds, not being forced into a situation they aren't equipped for. UFC 1 is a perfect example when talking empty hand. Grapplers that could take a punch reigned supreme for a long time. It wasn't until strikers learned defensive wrestling that the reign ended.

Syn7

11-26-2012, 07:05 PM

What is the 7 star technique where you deflect the arm inwards and charge in with your shoulder to the short ribs?

YouKnowWho

11-26-2012, 07:49 PM

What is the 7 star technique where you deflect the arm inwards and charge in with your shoulder to the short ribs?
When you apply "shoulder strike", you have to make sure that none of your opponent's arms will be in your shoulder striking path. To achieve that, you can use "right down and left up separate hands". Your left hand push your opponent's right arm up, your right hand push his left arm down, you then slide in and strike your right shoulder at your opponent's chest.

Syn7

11-26-2012, 07:56 PM

Do you run him over and take position for ground control or do you let him go flying?

YouKnowWho

11-26-2012, 09:05 PM

Do you run him over and take position for ground control or do you let him go flying?

To push your opponent away is never a good idea. It's better to keep friend close but to keep enemy closer. A good enemy is a pass out (or dead) enemy below your knee. The shoulder strike by itself is not sufficient enough to take your opponent down. But it helps you to knock your opponent's leading leg off the ground. If you can obtain your opponent's leading leg and hook his back leg at the same time, your opponent will have no leg to stand but fall. You can also use shoulder strike to set up your hip throw since your leading arm is near your opponent's waist area.

EarthDragon

11-26-2012, 09:18 PM

What is the 7 star technique where you deflect the arm inwards and charge in with your shoulder to the short ribs?

I teach 8 step , not 7 star so little different in translation but its simple sidee blcok mantis deflection and then ba duan with any part of the body moving and making the body move as one this is jing and can knock them on thier arsed simply.

thsi can be found in any martial art, as ykw sadi its what you do after that matters. i.e kick when hes falling, use your knee, hook hi ankle achilies tendon, lift leg,m run call the cops these are all your choices

Syn7

11-26-2012, 09:47 PM

You gotta vid so I can tell if we are talking bout the same thing? I saw it a long time ago and I'm going off an old memory. I have done things similar in other styles, but they were a bit different than what I'm thinking of. The ones I learned didn't use the shoulder striking but still drove in under the same principles. Leg sweep, hip toss, hook up and turn the corner for a double even. It's the strike that interests me, not the takedown.

It may have been 8 step. It's been awhile.

YouKnowWho

11-26-2012, 09:59 PM

Here is one kind of "shoulder strike".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEmfFWoZPvg

If you hook your opponent's back leg, you can take him down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WijqfK7xyYw

-N-

11-26-2012, 10:01 PM

Do you run him over and take position for ground control or do you let him go flying?

The shoulder strike by itself is not sufficient enough to take your opponent down. But it helps you to knock your opponent's leading leg off the ground. If you can obtain your opponent's leading leg and hook his back leg at the same time, your opponent will have no leg to stand but fall.

Shoulder strike is handy to use when the opponent tries to clinch or grapple and he thinks he is not exposed to strikes at that close range.

It can break his attempt at control and allow you to use follow up strikes, stand up grappling, or takedowns.

Or you can use it as you close in to stun him and follow up.

If you train enough, you actually can knock down a person. But don't follow him down. Just kick him in the face.

EarthDragon

11-26-2012, 10:05 PM

Syn7 You gotta vid so I can tell if we are talking bout the same thing? I saw it a long time ago and I'm going off an old memory. I have done things similar in other styles, but they were a bit different than what I'm thinking of. The ones I learned didn't use the shoulder striking but still drove in under the same principles. Leg sweep, hip toss, hook up and turn the corner for a double even. It's the strike that interests me, not the takedown.

It may have been 8 step. It's been awhile.
I have hours on my youbtube channel but cant remember in which of the hours LOL.

I understand what you are asking no worries. the body movemnt is its Ba duan, and you use a simple gou li ti to side block opp punch redirect then move past his center with jing, then use body, head, or shoulder like YKW video demoed

-N-

11-26-2012, 10:10 PM

Here is one kind of "shoulder strike".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEmfFWoZPvg

If you hook your opponent's back leg, you can take him down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WijqfK7xyYw

We train these against the 80lb heavy bag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47dn0P31BBw&feature=relmfu

Hit the bag to get it going. Then time the hits to connect as the bag is swinging towards you. Focus on shocking the bag and sending it as far as possible each time.

We particularly like the shoulder strikes starting at 1:48. The horse stance ones also.

YouKnowWho

11-26-2012, 10:18 PM

Shoulder strike is handy to use when the opponent tries to clinch or grapple and he thinks he is not exposed to strikes at that close range.

It can break his attempt at control and allow you to use follow up strikes, stand up grappling, or takedowns.

Or you can use it as you close in to stun him and follow up.

If you train enough, you actually can knock down a person. But don't follow him down. Just kick him in the face.

That's an excellent point. If you apply shoulder strike in clinch range, it may surprise your opponent big time. It may only exist in TCMA. I have not seen Judo guys or wrestlers used it yet.

When you apply it, watch out for your opponent's "head lock" and "reverse head lock (guillotine)". When your shoulder can hit your opponent's chest, his arms can get your neck too. When his "head lock" make both of your bodies to be connected, the power of your shoulder strike may not work that well. This is why it's important to be sure that your opponent's arms won't give you trouble when you do that.

EarthDragon

11-26-2012, 10:20 PM

2 minutes is is good. thsi is ba duan, hes been doing it for a while you can see the jing

Syn7

11-26-2012, 10:42 PM

Ive only seen wrestlers do it as a side effect of a hard drive. I'm sure they get a kick out of crashing in hard, but it isn't the reason why they're in there.

-N-

11-26-2012, 10:47 PM

That's an excellent point. If you apply shoulder strike in clinch range, it may surprise your opponent big time. It may only exist in TCMA. I have not seen Judo guys or wrestlers used it yet.

When you apply it, watch out for your opponent's "head lock" and "reverse head lock (guillotine)". When your shoulder can hit your opponent's chest, his arms can get your neck too. When his "head lock" make both of your bodies to be connected, the power of your shoulder strike may not work that well. This is why it's important to be sure that your opponent's arms won't give you trouble when you do that.

My sihing and I train this as a specialty from our system. Our classmates did not like to train this much.

Actually after we use the strike, we are in good position ourselves to use guillotine on the other guy. We already have right arm control and neck follows right away. But compared to the video, we are more right shoulder to right shoulder. But in the clip, he s right to left or left to right.

Also in training against the bag, we don't start so far away. We want to maximize the force and minimize the distance needed.

My sihing used it against his classmate when he tried to surprise him with a SC takedown. He used shoulder strike and knocked the other guy down instead. His teacher told him not to use shoulder strike again.

Syn7

11-27-2012, 01:11 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWj1pvkCBdA&feature=plcp

At 44 seconds, this is very close to what I was thinking accept that the lead arm is trapped in toward your opponents centerline making it hard for him to come with the left hand and he's also not able to face you without giving his back or making his arm position even worse by turning in to it. I love that push tho. I would like to see all the ways to trap and enter for that push. I'm less concerned with after the shoulder strike. I am pretty well versed in takedowns, I can see a ton of options there if you keep driving in rather than letting him bump off of you. Do you use your lead arm to push more, or backslap? Or is it just to get him off balance?

Do you use that as an end, or do you just stop there to train that specific drill and not worry about the after until you get that part down?

Also I have seen one where the hips are more square and only turn in after contact. Has that whole deflection force working for you. Sort of like when you check a front kick and push off to unbalance your opp. I love those kinds of deflections. They work really well for me when I'm on the outside of the arms working towards the center line. Gets em all tied up in their own limbs.

JamesC

11-27-2012, 01:11 AM

MMA fighters use shoulders strikes all the time during clinches. They aren't that effective really.

Syn7

11-27-2012, 01:17 AM

MMA fighters use shoulders strikes all the time during clinches. They aren't that effective really.

Not the same thing. You can't do what I'm talking about from a static position. It's kinetic from the step in all the way thru to ground control. You can take side control or mount very easily after the toss.
I know what you mean tho. They do it when their in someones guard too.

It does hurt, I've felt it. It's like getting run over.

omarthefish

11-27-2012, 04:01 AM

...The shoulder strike by itself is not sufficient enough to take your opponent down. ....

http://youtu.be/1zD17zl83Ko :p

EarthDragon

11-27-2012, 06:10 AM

At 44 seconds, this is very close to what I was thinking accept that the lead arm is trapped in toward your opponents centerline making it hard for him to come with the left hand and he's also not able to face you without giving his back or making his arm position even worse by turning in to it.

yes this is done with the same bridgeing tech (side block mantis), and it can be done from underneath as well. as seen in the vid

I love that push tho. I would like to see all the ways to trap and enter for that push.

its combinations are endless

I'm less concerned with after the shoulder strike. I am pretty well versed in takedowns, I can see a ton of options there if you keep driving in rather than letting him bump off of you.

yes depends on what ou want to do adn the end result your looking for.

Do you use your lead arm to push more, or backslap? Or is it just to get him off balance?
again depends on your goal or where you want o him to be, you can push him away you can hook the head from underneath for a throw over your shoulder. disturb his center, you can take down etc etc.

Do you use that as an end, or do you just stop there to train that specific drill and not worry about the after until you get that part down?

this is just 1 drill we pratcie over and over however when fighting you never ever stop your attack or forward motion until they are locked, broken, KO 'd bloody dead or they run, they are laying down not wanting to get up and fight.

Also I have seen one where the hips are more square and only turn in after contact. Has that whole deflection force working for you. Sort of like when you check a front kick and push off to unbalance your opp. I love those kinds of deflections. They work really well for me when I'm on the outside of the arms working towards the center line.

Gets em all tied up in their own limbs.

correct though thats a differnt type of Jing, thts Na twisting

YouKnowWho

11-27-2012, 01:28 PM

Do you use your lead arm to push more, or backslap?
You can use your shoulder to strike either below or above your opponent's arm. You can also throw your opponent either straight back or 90 degree sideway. When you throw your opponent 90 degree sideway, that's the time to use your upper arm or forearm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaQGjm3q1-I

Here is the solo drill if partner is not available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXjW0AABc6E

-N-

11-27-2012, 01:33 PM

Here is the solo drill if partner is not available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXjW0AABc6E
Heavy bag is your friend! Plus it doesn't get tired :)

YouKnowWho

11-27-2012, 01:40 PM

Heavy bag is your friend! Plus it doesn't get tired :)

All technique should go through the following 4 stages:

1. "develop" by partner training.
2. "test" by sparring/wrestling.
3. "enhance" by equipment training (such as heavy bag).
4. "polish" by solo drill.

where 1 > 2 > 3 > 4

You are right that equipment training > solo drill.

David Jamieson

11-27-2012, 04:21 PM

All technique should go through the following 4 stages:

1. "develop" by partner training.
2. "test" by sparring/wrestling.
3. "enhance" by equipment training (such as heavy bag).
4. "polish" by solo drill.

where 1 > 2 > 3 > 4

You are right that equipment training > solo drill.

I agree. This is common sense. However...

It is delivered in different order to beginners, especially in Kung Fu schools here in North America. Where is typically delivered in the format of 4>1>3>2

I think it is the fascination with forms and the commercialization of martial arts in general as something the greater public felt they could purchase. Bonafide martial arts of all varieties were NEVER founded or inspired in the atmosphere of learning at club with others.

All the most useful and effective martial arts are derivative of what has worked and that can have a variety of ways to be trained. Including those used in sport and in real life violent confrontations.

YouKnowWho

11-27-2012, 06:23 PM

It is delivered in different order to beginners, especially in Kung Fu schools here in North America. Where is typically delivered in the format of 4>1>3>2.
So your approach is solo drills > partner drills > equipment training > sparring/wrestling

Without sparring/wrestling, you won't know whether you will like to use certain technique or not. For example, you can use

- sikp in side kick with your front leg.
- turn your body and side kick with your back leg.

If both techniques are in your form, in your approach, you will start with solo drills, partner training, equipment training, and then do the final testing. Since the testing stage will take quite some time, you may find out that you just don't like to turn your body and side kick with your back leg. When you have found that out, you have already spent quit sometime in solo drill, partner drill, and equipment training. You can spend the same time on your skip in side kick with your front leg instead.

Will it be better to test your technique and make sure that technique is what you like to use before you spend more training time to "enhance" and "polish" it? There are so many techniques that we have trained in our life that we have not used it in sparring/wrestling. The chance that we will use it in the future may also be unlikely.

If we can identify those techniques through sparring/wrestling as early as possible then we can invest our valuable training time in the right set of techniques.

-N-

11-27-2012, 06:28 PM

I think it is the fascination with forms and the commercialization of martial arts in general as something the greater public felt they could purchase. Bonafide martial arts of all varieties were NEVER founded or inspired in the atmosphere of learning at club with others.

My teacher, in his later years, had less emphasis on forms.

And he always did tell us that just knowing a form is of no use.

He wanted us to drill the applications that he showed us from the forms until we were able to use them against each other without problem or hesitation. He lectured us on this constantly.

He often taught applications without teaching the form it came from until many years later. By then he would teach the form and tell us, "You already know this."

-N-

11-27-2012, 06:34 PM

If we can identify those techniques through sparring/wrestling as early as possible then we can inverst our valuable training time in the right set of techniques.

Test early!

YouKnowWho

11-27-2012, 06:44 PM

He often taught applications without teaching the form it came from until many years later. By then he would teach the form and tell us, "You already know this."

- Partner drills without partner are solo drills.
- To link your solo drills, you will get forms.

The following clip is just to connect many solo drills in random sequence. Can anyone be able to tell it's not TCMA form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT_rVcz8LB0

-N-

11-27-2012, 08:13 PM

The following clip is just to connect many solo drills in random sequence. Can anyone be able to tell it's not TCMA form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT_rVcz8LB0

What if you do not connect in random.

Aren't some movements the natural followups to others?

Or some sequences are higher percentage than others?

YouKnowWho

11-27-2012, 09:38 PM

What if you do not connect in random.

Aren't some movements the natural followups to others?

Or some sequences are higher percentage than others?

1st you connect single moves into combo. You then connect combos into form. It's 2 steps process.

Step 1 - to challenge your understanding of natural followups.
Step 2 - to challenge the ability to smoothly connect 2 non-relative moves (this part is for teaching and learning only).

Let's take 3 combos as example.

1. Combo 1 - A, B, C
2. Combo 2 - D, E
3. Combo 3 - F, G, H, I,

If you can link combo 1, combo 2, combo 3 as a sequence that move C can set up move D, and move E can set up move F, you will have 9 moves combo. That will be the best form design. If move C is a "firemen's carry" that the moment you pick your opponent over your head, you won't need it to set up any other move, the sequence terminate right there. Whether you want your "firemen's carry" to connect to move D or to move F, it won't make any difference as long as the connection is smooth.

-N-

11-27-2012, 10:00 PM

If move C is a "firemen's carry" that the moment you pick your opponent over your headu, you won't need it to set up any other move, the sequence terminate right there. Whether you want your "firemen's carry" to connect to move D or to move F, it won't make any difference as long as the connection is smooth.

You see that in traditional forms. Some motions are intermediary in a sequence. Other motions might be shown as finishing moves.

After a finishing move the form might change direction of the line and start a new sequence.

A form might show a variety of ways to lead into a particular finishing move.

Or the form might imply a reasonable escape from the finishing move. Then the next series begins with a likely position after the escape.

Syn7

11-27-2012, 10:02 PM

yes this is done with the same bridgeing tech (side block mantis), and it can be done from underneath as well. as seen in the vid

its combinations are endless

yes depends on what ou want to do adn the end result your looking for.

again depends on your goal or where you want o him to be, you can push him away you can hook the head from underneath for a throw over your shoulder. disturb his center, you can take down etc etc.

this is just 1 drill we pratcie over and over however when fighting you never ever stop your attack or forward motion until they are locked, broken, KO 'd bloody dead or they run, they are laying down not wanting to get up and fight.

correct though thats a differnt type of Jing, thts Na twisting

Sweet. Thanx. If you find yourself with a partner, a camera and some extra time maybe you could run thru some of the variations. In particular the bridging before the second entry. I can figure some of it out by reading a description. But videos make it much more clear. I just like the concept and how that deflection really has alot of power without sacrificing control.

jimbob

11-28-2012, 04:27 AM

No style means you start with application. You learn

- groin kick, face punch because it's effective combo in combat, it's not because that combo exist in your form.
- hip throw because it's the mother of all throws, it's not because there is a body bending move in your form that look like hip throw.

You go to school. Your teacher teaches you

1. 10 moves form. He then explains application for all those 10 moves.
2. 10 applications. You then link those 10 moves into a logical sequence yourself.

The end result of these 2 approaches may be the same but the starting points are different. The major difference here is by using the 1st approach, your learning material is restricted by your forms. By using the 2nd approach, your learning material will have no limitation.

Is it perhaps possible that we started out with application.

And then we wanted to practice application in a 'safe way' so we found a partner and did 'some' but not 'all' of the application, so we could continue to train safely without hurting each other.

And then our partner decided he didn't want to train anymore, or had to work that week, or had a baby and had no energy or or or - so we took what we were doing with him, and just started practising in the air, by ourselves.

And then someone saw that and said - "hey - looks good. I want to learn too".

And then one day he left and started showing other people what he'd learned.

And over time, after many many generations of showing people what other people had learned, we forgot what the original applications were?

Maybe application came before anyone ever even thought of 'forms'.?

-N-

11-28-2012, 04:33 AM

And over time, after many many generations of showing people what other people had learned, we forgot what the original applications were?

Who forgot?

Maybe application came before anyone ever even thought of 'forms'.?

For legit martial arts, sure.

David Jamieson

11-28-2012, 07:29 AM

So your approach is solo drills > partner drills > equipment training > sparring/wrestling

Nope that is not my approach. But it is the observed approach of a great many schools in how they start beginners.

I firmly believe that form follows function. Therefore, partner drills and conditioning+equipment training takes precedence, Sparring is less frequent due to age and ability to find people who know how to spar etc.

I kind of laugh at the idea that partners to train with are easy to come by, they aren't. In a school with a fixed curriculum, you can get better access but in a school that doesn't spar, it is still hard to find partners. If you train on your own and don't go to a school anymore, it becomes even more challenging.

Anyway, it's not easy finding a good partner for martial arts. It took me a long time before I found the small group of guys that I train with all too infrequently and one guy who I train with regularly.

jimbob

11-28-2012, 01:06 PM

Who forgot?

.

Everyone. It's only natural. Imagine if you will, you're sitting back to back with someone, who is describing a picture to you, and you're trying to draw that picture. You work hard, you do the best you can....and then you do the same with your picture and someone else...and then the next person does the same, and the next and the next.......we wind up with a picture that may have very little to do with what was originally there. Doesn't mean it wasn't carefully drawn, just that we don't have contact with what was originally there.

All I'm saying is, I'd be happy to accept this as a possibility - the application was what was originally there and perhaps all there was. Then we decided to practise. As David says - finding someone to practice with isn't easy - so we develop ways to practise alone as best we can. This gets transmitted to others. It doesn't take that many degrees of separation to lose all sense of meaning in what you're doing.

Then you get people trying to reverse engineer stuff or retro-fit forms to function, when perhaps they don't have any way of knowing what the original function was.

Kellen Bassette

11-28-2012, 01:18 PM

Everyone. It's only natural. Imagine if you will, you're sitting back to back with someone, who is describing a picture to you, and you're trying to draw that picture. You work hard, you do the best you can....and then you do the same with your picture and someone else...and then the next person does the same, and the next and the next.......we wind up with a picture that may have very little to do with what was originally there. Doesn't mean it wasn't carefully drawn, just that we don't have contact with what was originally there.

All I'm saying is, I'd be happy to accept this as a possibility - the application was what was originally there and perhaps all there was. Then we decided to practise. As David says - finding someone to practice with isn't easy - so we develop ways to practise alone as best we can. This gets transmitted to others. It doesn't take that many degrees of separation to lose all sense of meaning in what you're doing.

Then you get people trying to reverse engineer stuff or retro-fit forms to function, when perhaps they don't have any way of knowing what the original function was.

This is all true and that is why its so important to practice apps with a partner...but, as far as "reverse engineering" forms, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I always liked it when a teacher asked a student what do you think that application is. If they come up with something practical then train it and make it work. It gets them to think for themselves on how to apply the art.

We all know there can be several applications for any given move in a form..some may work better for you than others...Certainly a lot of apps are hidden and need to be explained, but a lot of stuff can be discerned just by looking at it and two people can come up with two different apps as their first choice. The apps you recognizance on your own may work naturally for you.

YouKnowWho

11-28-2012, 01:31 PM

If you are a teacher and you have learned 20 forms in your lifetime. You can

1. teach those 20 forms to your students the same way as you had learned.
2. remove redundency and combine your 20 forms into 1 form and teach your students that 1 form.
3. take 50 combos out of your 20 forms and teach your student those 50 combos. You then allow your students to link those 50 combos into as many forms (or just 1 form) as they like.

Which approach is better?

daiyoshida

11-28-2012, 01:55 PM

I don't quite get this conversation.

I've never been taught a form without being taught the function. (often in an extremely painful demonstration) It was followed by a half hour humorous anecdotal account of when he used this particular technique in the war (or the prison, whichever it may be). I couldn't get him to shut up. Maybe I just had different kind of teachers. It may have taken a year to learn a single form with a whole lot of tea consumption in between but not knowing the function was never my problem.

Even if your teacher isn't very talkative, how hard is it to ask, "How do you use this?"

YouKnowWho

11-28-2012, 02:14 PM

Even if your teacher isn't very talkative, how hard is it to ask, "How do you use this?"

Even if you may ask that question, your question is still limited by the boundary of that form. When your teacher teaches you a Taiji form, will you ask him how to do a "flying knee"?

daiyoshida

11-28-2012, 02:47 PM

Even if you may ask that question, your question is still limited by the boundary of that form. When your teacher teaches you a Taiji form, will you ask him how to do a "flying knee"?

Say, what?

I don't know, maybe I'm getting too old for this. You kids speak a different language.

YouKnowWho

11-28-2012, 05:51 PM

Say, what?

I don't know, maybe I'm getting too old for this. You kids speak a different language.

To be old doesn't mean you should lose your sense of humor. I may jump ahead a bit too fast. Here is the difference:

method 1: form -> application

A: Today we work on Taiji. This is Taiji "golden rooster stand on one leg".
B: What's the application for this?
A: You use one palm to push on your opponent's chin and strike your knee into his groin.
B: If the distance is too far, can I use my back leg to jump in and strke with my front knee?
A: If you do that, it will no longer be Taiji. The Taiji "golden rooster stand on one leg" doesn't have that jump.
B: If my opponent use that on me, what should I do to counter him?
A: Just wait when I teach you another form that has that counter. You should not have to worry about it when you work on this form.

method 2: application

A: Today we work on "knee strike". You can strike your knee straight up, 45 degree upward, 90 degree horizontal. If the distance is far, you can use your back leg to jump in and strke with you front knee. Also if your opponent use it on you, you can counter him by ...
B: What style are you teaching me?
A: I'm teaching you how to use "knee strike". It has nothing to do with style.

-N-

11-28-2012, 06:04 PM

A: Today we work on Taiji. This is Taiji "golden rooster stand on one leg".
B: What's the application for this?
A: You use one palm to push on your opponent's chin and strike your knee into his groin.
B: If the distance is too far, can I use my back leg to jump in and strke with my front knee?
A: If you do that, it will no longer be Taiji. The Taiji "golden rooster stand on one leg" doesn't have that jump.

Is Tai Chi really that literal in their forms?

I'm not a Tai Chi guy, but I'm told that they do extrapolate the generic motion to include the broad range of entire class of methods.

One person told me his teacher explained a single backfist as representative of every possible backfist. And what about the whole body being the fist?

The explanation of single leg stance in Mantis include stepping with knee attack, jumping knee attack, leg hooking attack, kicking, jump kicking...

We are not so literal to exclude those.

xinyidizi

11-28-2012, 06:58 PM

Even if you may ask that question, your question is still limited by the boundary of that form. When your teacher teaches you a Taiji form, will you ask him how to do a "flying knee"?

Is it so difficult to see 踢二起 can also be a knee attack?

YouKnowWho

11-29-2012, 04:10 AM

xinyidizi

11-29-2012, 04:28 AM

- The "form -> applications approach" center around "TCMA forms".
- The "direct application approach" center around "human body".

Our body parts can perform many different functions:

1. hand - 50,
2. arm - 10,
3. shoulder - 4,
4. elbow - 6,
5. chest - 6,
6. leg - 20,
7. foot - 20,
8. waist - 10,
9. head - 10,
10. hip - 5.

We should try to understand what our body can do and not just what TCMA forms can teach us.

So if you want to teach someone using this method it basically means that you want to reorganize parts of different styles that are in your understanding useful and make a new "style". Probably all the styles have been created and developed in this way.

bawang

11-29-2012, 06:41 AM

EarthDragon

11-29-2012, 06:45 AM

YKW

If you are a teacher and you have learned 20 forms in your lifetime. You can

1. teach those 20 forms to your students the same way as you had learned.
2. remove redundency and combine your 20 forms into 1 form and teach your students that 1 form.
3. take 50 combos out of your 20 forms and teach your student those 50 combos. You then allow your students to link those 50 combos into as many forms (or just 1 form) as they like.

As a teacher 1 and 3 are correct. (considering you learned properly from a good teacher) I teach as how I have been taught adding my own flavor and finesse, ie. #1

#3. I wil also allow my students to understand and apply as many techniques as they can learn properly with execution.

HOWEVER, as a teacher I DO NOT have the right to remove anything from my system as I was not the creator. out of resepect for the masters whom passed down the information to me I may choose to not spend lots of time or practice things that are redundant, but I will always uphold my traditional path.

some techniques I learned in Go Ju vback in the 80's were blocking application from your opponent on horse back..................... I dont think I will ever use them living in NY. LOL but i dont have the right to remove this app from the style based on my personal thoughts...

pateticorecords

11-29-2012, 08:06 AM

Why can we train like this - no style? Your thought?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLkqwQrCS8

Because if you do that, no matter the years of experience and your expertise, your lineage will be questioned... and without lineage you are not a martial artist:D

Just kidding...:p

daiyoshida

11-29-2012, 10:24 AM

To be old doesn't mean you should lose your sense of humor. I may jump ahead a bit too fast. Here is the difference:

method 1: form -> application

A: Today we work on Taiji. This is Taiji "golden rooster stand on one leg".
B: What's the application for this?
A: You use one palm to push on your opponent's chin and strike your knee into his groin.
B: If the distance is too far, can I use my back leg to jump in and strke with my front knee?
A: If you do that, it will no longer be Taiji. The Taiji "golden rooster stand on one leg" doesn't have that jump.
B: If my opponent use that on me, what should I do to counter him?
A: Just wait when I teach you another form that has that counter. You should not have to worry about it when you work on this form.

method 2: application

A: Today we work on "knee strike". You can strike your knee straight up, 45 degree upward, 90 degree horizontal. If the distance is far, you can use your back leg to jump in and strke with you front knee. Also if your opponent use it on you, you can counter him by ...
B: What style are you teaching me?
A: I'm teaching you how to use "knee strike". It has nothing to do with style.

I've never studied Taiji but we were surrounded by Taiji players in the park where I was taught. There were basically 2 types of Taiji instructors that I saw.

There were those who taught the forms exclusively and made no mention of applications. Their execution were flawless and dignified. I knew one of these teachers personally and given a situation she can be very lethal but she prefer to just teach forms, which is fine.

The other kind were pretty brutal. I've seen a poor chap get his face shoved into the concrete floor and came up rather bloody. Looking back I'm surprised nobody got arrested, considering the place was right behind the police station.

I can't say I know any teacher that taught like your method #1. I'd venture to say that that's more like a caricature. But then who know, I've met walking caricatures too.

YouKnowWho

11-29-2012, 12:49 PM

So if you want to teach someone using this method it basically means that you want to reorganize parts of different styles that are in your understanding useful and make a new "style". Probably all the styles have been created and developed in this way.
Of course, if a teacher has to teach with "no style", he has to "cross train" 1st. This way he can understand all different ranges and achieve a true integration.

There is no need to create a new style. The following tools are all needed in combat:

1. jab, cross, upper cut, hook punch, hammer punch, back fist, side punch, ...
2. front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, spin kick, ...
3. figer lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ankle lock, ...
4. hip throw, leg twist, leg lift, leg block, single leg, double legs, ...
5. side mount, full mount, arm bar, choke, leg bar, ...

We can come up logical combos in each areas 1st such as:

- hook punch, back fist, upper cut, ...
- front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, ...
- elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- leg twist, leg lift, leg block, front cut, ...
- side mount, arm bar, ...

We can then come up integration combos such as:

- front kick, foot sweep, jab, leg block, ...
- front kick, hook punch, underhook, hip throw, ...
- ...

The word "style" still plays no part so far. Again, if you link your combos, you will get your forms. The "no style approach" can still have forms if people are interested.

pazman

11-29-2012, 01:01 PM

HOWEVER, as a teacher I DO NOT have the right to remove anything from my system as I was not the creator. out of resepect for the masters whom passed down the information to me I may choose to not spend lots of time or practice things that are redundant, but I will always uphold my traditional path.

Are you implying the founders of your arts were disrespectful to their teachers for changing around things and making new things?

YouKnowWho

11-29-2012, 02:08 PM

Are you implying the founders of your arts were disrespectful to their teachers for changing around things and making new things?

I was talking to my senior SC brother the other day about this concern. The tradition "hip throw" footwork is very easy to let your opponent to spin with you and drag you down to the ground. The 90 degree trun footwork is better. The question is:

Should we

1. replace the traditional method by the modern method if it's better?
2. only teach the tradition method and keep the modern method to ourselves?
3. teach both traditional method and modern method at the same time?

My teacher always said, "It's not your problem. It's not even your teacher's problem. It might be the style founder's problem." I love his attitude.

pateticorecords

11-29-2012, 02:26 PM

I was talking to my senior SC brother the other day about this concern. The tradition "hip throw" footwork is very easy to let your opponent to spin with you and drag you down to the ground. The 90 degree trun footwork is better. The question is:

Should we

1. replace the traditional method by the modern method if it's better?
2. only teach the tradition method and keep the modern method to ourselves?
3. teach both traditional method and modern method at the same time?

My teacher always said, "It's not your problem. It's not even your teacher's problem. It might be the style founder's problem." I love his attitude.

Teach both traditional method and modern method at the same time

pateticorecords

11-29-2012, 02:28 PM

Are you implying the founders of your arts were disrespectful to their teachers for changing around things and making new things?

That is one of the best questions posed yet... was the intention of the creator of the art for it to become stagnant or was their intention for the art to evolve?

YouKnowWho

11-29-2012, 02:32 PM

That is one of the best questions posed yet... was the intention of the creator of the art for it to become stagnant or was their intention for the art to evolve?

Even the best copy machine, the quality will get worse and worse. I hate to be just a "copy machine".

pateticorecords

11-29-2012, 02:38 PM

Even the best copy machine, the quality will get worse and worse. I hate to be just a "copy machine".

I am in agreement... in order to not become extinct we must evolve.

Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change. -Confucius

bawang

11-29-2012, 02:58 PM

I am in agreement... in order to not become extinct we must evolve.

Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change. -Confucius

i would die before abandoning my culture.

i dont have to chase shadows, search for roots. im secure in my knowledge of self, in my heritage, history and culture. i have continuity, i dont have to imitate, adpot, or try to recreate.

many people can talk about evolving and throwing away culture because they dont have any. what is your highly evolved culture? bombing brown people, cheating on your wife, and eat a turkey once a year.

pazman

11-29-2012, 08:04 PM

EarthDragon

11-29-2012, 08:38 PM

PAZ

Are you implying the founders of your arts were disrespectful to their teachers for changing around things and making new things?

not at all, 8 step mantis is made up of the best of 14 different styles. itsa hybrid system.

however I do feel that one must master thier style before they have the right to change it...... if they think a tech doesnt work perhaps it works and the person hasnt perfected the movement yet, therefore change is not neccessary only more practice.

And yes everything evolves if a tech is out dated, as I explianed before, I was taught a tech where you are blocking from an oppoent on horse back , then yes its time to delete that tech and modify it to our times. just make sure you have mastered it first othewise systems tend to get watered down from thier original and I am pure tradationalsit of the culture and my personal preference is to preserve my lineage to its orginal as best I can, I do not want to "americanize" it for my convienece to teach.

omarthefish

11-29-2012, 09:45 PM

Even the best copy machine, the quality will get worse and worse. I hate to be just a "copy machine".

Of course, imperfect copy machines are pretty much the definition of evolution.

-N-

11-29-2012, 11:33 PM

Of course, imperfect copy machines are pretty much the definition of evolution.

Haha. Plus selection pressure!

pateticorecords

11-30-2012, 05:27 AM

i would die before abandoning my culture.

i dont have to chase shadows, search for roots. im secure in my knowledge of self, in my heritage, history and culture. i have continuity, i dont have to imitate, adpot, or try to recreate.

many people can talk about evolving and throwing away culture because they dont have any. what is your highly evolved culture? bombing brown people, cheating on your wife, and eat a turkey once a year.

I have some questions...

Where on this forum have I talked about abandoning your culture?
What gives you the right to question anyone else's?

I could point out many things wrong with many cultures, including my own, but if you only focus on the negative, negativity is ultimately what you will get in return.

The natural course of nature is to evolve or become extinct... it's not culture, it's science. :D

bawang

11-30-2012, 08:06 AM

I have some questions...

Where on this forum have I talked about abandoning your culture?
'The natural course of nature is to evolve or become extinct...'

What gives you the right to question anyone else's?
im trong, i work out

YouKnowWho

11-30-2012, 01:18 PM

I could point out many things wrong with many cultures,...

Onething that I hate about the Chinese culture is when you touch a Chinse girl's hand, she will ask you when you are going to marry her.

-N-

11-30-2012, 05:02 PM

Onething that I hate about the Chinese culture is when you touch a Chinse girl's hand, she will ask you when you are going to marry her.

What did you touch it with? :D

Syn7

11-30-2012, 05:39 PM

It's not his fault she wanted to share the popcorn! **** happens...

YouKnowWho

12-01-2012, 12:59 PM

Assume the following tools are in your toolbox

1. jab, cross, upper cut, hook punch, hammer punch, back fist, side punch, ...
2. front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, spin kick, ...
3. figer lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ankle lock, ...
4. hip throw, leg twist, leg lift, leg block, single leg, double legs, ...
5. side mount, full mount, arm bar, choke, leg bar, ...

You should learn at least how to:

- use it.
- counter it.
- counter the counters.

That will be a lot information to learn.

Let's take "side kick" as example. you will learn:

- how to set up a side kick.
- use downward block to deflect a side kick.
- depending on you and your opponent are in uniform stance or mirror stance. If in uniform stance, your opponent's left arm will deflect your left side kick to your right, you will then borrow his force, and spin into your right spin back fist. If in mirror stance, your opponent's downward block will spin your body to your left, you then borrow his force, spin your body, and right palm strike at his neck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgFRmExI_ec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyHE3P8eS7I

If you use the "form approach", does your form have:

- side kick?
- downward block (almost all forms has this)?
- side kick, spin back fist combo and side kick, palm chop combo?

Some style doesn't even have side kick. What if your form doesn't have side kick, spin back fist combo or side kick, palm chop combo? What if both combos exist in different forms? What will be the chance that you will learn all those by using "form approach"?

By using "form approach", you may not be able tp learn a technique completely (technique, counter, counter to counters).

-N-

12-02-2012, 12:04 AM

If you use the "form approach", does your form have:

- side kick?
- downward block (almost all forms has this)?
- side kick, spin back fist combo and side kick, palm chop combo?

Some style doesn't even have side kick. What if your form doesn't have side kick, spin back fist combo or side kick, palm chop combo? What if both combos exist in different forms? What will be the chance that you will learn all those by using "form approach"?

By using "form approach", you may not be able tp learn a technique completely (technique, counter, counter to counters).

Mantis has forms, and I am not a forms focused person.

But if you are going to study forms, you can't be so literal. There are infinite number of technques and combos. And what about strategies in how to use them? And what about the underlying principles?

So your form doesn't specifically show side kick and spin backfist. Does your form show the principle of turning to use a backfist or other attack? Does it show using it as a followup move?

Well, you might say that it is followup in a combination attack, and not from using the opponent's countering force to power your backfist.

Whether you attack and change to rebound off your attacking force or borrow the other person's force to turn, it is still sensitivity in reacting to the connection. It's all relative and it doesn't matter who is moving towards the other guy.

Or you might say that the form shows a turn, but not from a side kick.

Does your form show the turn from any type of side attack at all? How about after a horse punch? If your form showed a counter to straight punch to the face, would you get confused if the person attacked with straight palm to the face instead?

If your teacher showed you right hip throw, and you never figured out left hip throw, he would yell at you.

There is turning followup attack after your favorite move in Gung Lik Kuen, the beginner's form. After jump in smash to the leg, there is turn, grab, step, and forearm smash. Or if you like the turn, grab, step, hit can be turn and throw.

If you want turning backfist specifically, the 2 person Bung Bo has it as a counter to the wrist break that is shown in the single person form.

It is not against counter to side kick, but once you learn to turn and smash down with backfist, are you going to do it only against wristlock or wrist break? Or are you going to extrapolate?

If the form shows backfist and you are really close to the other guy would you stop yourself from using elbow to the head? Same turning sinking force. Same body mechanics.

If you have right grab, left punch to the face, right horse punch, would you ever do right grab left feint to the face, right kao da?

Would you say it is too far to kao da because that part of the form shows only a small step with the horse punch?

Were there other parts of the form where it showed a sliding in sinking shifting step? You would not look for places to apply that principle for making up distance?

There's a difference between learning forms and studying forms.

Forms show the style or system, but forms are not the style.

Even in boxing, there are different styles even though there are no forms.

YouKnowWho

12-02-2012, 12:55 AM

-N-

12-02-2012, 01:18 AM

The question is how many people will analysis form in such detail as you have just described? When you learned your forms outdoor with a large group. The teacher might not have time to go into this kind of detail.

If you are TCMA, you should be going to that level of detail in understanding the forms.

In the beginning, it is just learning a sequence, but the usage details and understanding have to be there. Or else it's just a useless dance.

The form is just the record of the system. The actual principles and skills need to be extracted and drilled. I don't use forms for fight training.

My teacher did go into a lot of detail. Not all at once, and not every time, though. And if he explained in one context, he expected you to recognize it in another. If you showed that in usage, he would give more advanced material.

The student has to do his part. Not just get everything handed to him.

-N-

12-02-2012, 10:49 AM

bawang

12-02-2012, 12:14 PM

Kellen Bassette

12-02-2012, 12:23 PM

Here is Marine Corp style.

If you compare the 2 videos, you can see they do "forms". They call them "patterns".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQNWr0cd_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmTX40q6zg

Lol about R.O.K. marines.

Every system trains forms. They just may not be complex patterns in the sense of TCMA...without form training all there is is instinctive brawling. Wrestlers, boxers, Thai fighters, Jiu Jitsu players all use form training. There are many different methods of training forms.

bawang

12-02-2012, 12:40 PM

thats why pankration is fake wannabe. unless you dance in a circle naked and oiled to flute, you are not training real pankration.

Kellen Bassette

12-02-2012, 12:50 PM

thats why pankration is fake wannabe. unless you dance in a circle naked and oiled to flute, you are not training real pankration.

Yes, but there's no reason we can't incorporate that element into or TCMA training as well...

EarthDragon

12-02-2012, 01:12 PM

YKW

The question is how many people will analysis form in such detail as you have just described? When you learned your forms outdoor with a large group. The teacher might not have time to go into this kind of detail.

Perhaps this is the problem with some or a lot of the modern sifus in the US.
They fail to show the purpose and importance of the forms, and just teach the movements like dance class.
Hence forms get a bad name and sometimes not taught correctly. I was taught to analize, break down, understand and critique my form until I looked like the bug I was trying mimic.
When you reach this level you realize the important role that forms have in your system.
If your only taught shell you cant get to the yolk. This is also true of Taiji, so many teachers teach the movements, they dont know or dont take the time to explian the application, well what good is the grand ultimate first if you are not taught to punch with it? perhaps a better teacher is what some people need to seek?

YouKnowWho

12-02-2012, 03:03 PM

forms get a bad name and sometimes not taught correctly.

The praying mantis system has the best drills. Most of their drills are so long, it almost can be called as form. Drills such as:

1. wrist grab, foot sweep, hook punch, back fist, upper cut, hammer fist, straight punch.
2. back fist, hook, hook, back fist, 3 straight punches to the head, one straight punch to the body.
3. back right palm, right Gou, left chong zhao, right palm, left Diao, right palm.
4. Mo Pan Shou, left Diao, right palm, righ Gou, left Gou, right chong zhao.

Unfortunately most styles just don't create as good forms as the praying mantis system does. Also the praying mantis forms have no hidden moves. Every moves can be map into combat without any modification.

EarthDragon

12-02-2012, 05:49 PM

I completly agree, perhaps I am spolied when it comes to pratical forms practice in mantis.

I see your point with bad teachers only teching the show side of thier form and not the combat side.

Kellen Bassette

12-02-2012, 06:10 PM

I completly agree, perhaps I am spolied when it comes to pratical forms practice in mantis.

I see your point with bad teachers only teching the show side of thier form and not the combat side.

You weren't spoiled, other people were robbed. I was in MAs for a long time before it dawned on me that not all schools spar hard and drill apps. I always took it for granted.

-N-

12-02-2012, 06:28 PM

downward elbow???

Yeah, I was like, wtf???

-N-

12-02-2012, 06:30 PM

thats why pankration is fake wannabe. unless you dance in a circle naked and oiled to flute, you are not training real pankration.

Oily flutes. Too scary.

-N-

12-02-2012, 06:41 PM

Unfortunately most styles just don't create as good forms as the praying mantis system does.

I wouldn't make that judgement.

Also the praying mantis forms have no hidden moves. Every moves can be map into combat without any modification.

I hate that idea of "hidden moves".

They are not deliberately hidden. It's just that the person is not at a level where he can recognize or appreciate the detail.

Secret technique is so much bs. Maybe that's what fake teachers do to take advantage of gullible wannabees.

I try to forcefeed my students when I teach them. They just can't take it all in.

"It's only a secret because you are not paying attention! Do it again!"

Kellen Bassette

12-02-2012, 06:47 PM

I wouldn't make that judgement.

I try to forcefeed my students when I teach them. They just can't take it all in.

"It's only a secret because you are not paying attention! Do it again!"

Hit them with a cane. My Sifu used to hit me with a cane. I turned out alright. Now he has given the cane to me.

-N-

12-02-2012, 06:54 PM

The praying mantis system has the best drills. Most of their drills are so long, it almost can be called as form. Drills such as:

1. wrist grab, foot sweep, hook punch, back fist, upper cut, hammer fist, straight punch.
2. back fist, hook, hook, back fist, 3 straight punches to the head, one straight punch to the body.
3. back right palm, right Gou, left chong zhao, right palm, left Diao, right palm.
4. Mo Pan Shou, left Diao, right palm, righ Gou, left Gou, right chong zhao.

Any system can have good drills. Depends on the teacher's ability.

Some people like to focus on standardized drills from Mantis. That can be as bad as memorizing forms.

The question is if you are able to master the transitions in the drill sequences so they are second nature. Some people get stuck on doing partner drills without engaging the fighting mindset. They just go through the motions. There are tons of videos like this on YouTube.

I put together sequences to teach a particular idea, or to fix a particular problem with the student. I don't fixate on the drills and I'll throw them away when I'm done with them.

YouKnowWho

12-02-2012, 07:35 PM

Any system can have good drills. Depends on the teacher's ability.

Of course a good teacher can create good combo drills. But let's try to extract drills from TCMA form for the sake of this discussion. The following 2 forms were used by the NanKing Central Kuo Shu Institute as the basic 2 forms to learn by all students.

Lien Bu Chuan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECyH84mkt5A

Gong Li Chuan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zorsx50Dhss

Can anybody extract any good combo drills from these 2 forms?

bawang

12-02-2012, 07:43 PM

I hate that idea of "hidden moves".

They are not deliberately hidden. It's just that the person is not at a level where he can recognize or appreciate the detail.

there is no hidden moves. the problem is removal of oral teachings component. the most important parts of teaching that explains things is removed.

what you have is a bunch of deaf mutes dancing like mimes, and trying to find out the application behind the most basic of punches.

words transmit thought. thought is spirit.

-N-

12-02-2012, 11:50 PM

there is no hidden moves. the problem is removal of oral teachings component. the most important parts of teaching that explains things is removed.

what you have is a bunch of deaf mutes dancing like mimes, and trying to find out the application behind the most basic of punches.

words transmit thought. thought is spirit.
+1 all that.

-N-

12-04-2012, 04:17 AM

Of course a good teacher can create good combo drills. But let's try to extract drills from TCMA form for the sake of this discussion. The following 2 forms were used by the NanKing Central Kuo Shu Institute as the basic 2 forms to learn by all students.

Lien Bu Chuan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECyH84mkt5A

Gong Li Chuan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zorsx50Dhss

Can anybody extract any good combo drills from these 2 forms?
I'm not a Long Fist guy, but how about this section?

I'll look at it from Praying Mantis point of view.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/temp-200-60371276.gif

You use right hand to deflect the high attack upwards. Raise the left knee to dive forward and down into the opening with left low palm attack.

Other person shifts back and clears the low attack and returns a right high attack.

You run into his attack, clear with left hand, and shoot a right punch in his face.

Other person defends the high attack and tries to surprise you with groin kick.

You shoot backwards and clear the low kick and rebound forward with right punch to face again.

Other person shifts back and defends the high attack again and comes back with right punch this time.

You go forward into his counter this time instead of retreating after your right punch.

You use left to clear his right attack and you use like Praying Mantis stealing palms to do right downward palm and left sideways palm to his head.

Other person parries your left palm with his right and counters with left high punch as he escapes back.

You continue your forward drive, grab his left attack and use right forearm smash to side of head for your finishing move.

This sequence might not be exactly what is in the form, but it can be used to drill some useful things.

I would use the knee raise not as an attack or defense, but as an emphasis on seizing the timing and flying in to attack. But if you want, you can say that he is avoiding a leg kick since you like that opening.

Important is the back and forth footwork and to be able to instantly rebound from a defensive footwork back to attacking footwork.

After you come back again with your second high punch, the other person tries to do a variation in his counter by punching instead of kicking. Though you could have him kick again if you make a sideways adjustment to your footwork to help avoid the kick.

This time, instead of retreating, you press forward. This shows the offensive response option compared to the previous defensive response. Presumably by this time you have learned the attackers timing, and try to steal it from him.

He also tries to step it up on you by immediately using his left punch. But you take it over to kill him with your side smash to temple.

At this point in the sequence you can do a transition so the other side does your sequence, and you do the matching moves. Then drill this back and forth until you have lightning speed and agility, or until you are too tired to continue.

You can also give your student some variations on the sequence. For example, the last move can be elbow break/control or shoulder lock if you you continue your motion over on top instead of just sideways. Then use leg trapping, body control, and sinking to apply your force.

-N-

12-04-2012, 04:26 AM

For a simple stand alone combo, the left/right/left stealing palm done with ou lou choi timing and transitioning into left grab right side smash is pretty nice.

Finesse of the palm methods, with easy transition into control, and a nice switch into hard method finishing move.

-N-

12-04-2012, 09:46 AM

I'm not a Long Fist guy, but how about this section?

I'll look at it from Praying Mantis point of view.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/temp-200-60371276.gif

You use right hand to deflect the high attack upwards. Raise the left knee to dive forward and down into the opening with left low palm attack.

[...]

I would use the knee raise not as an attack or defense, but as an emphasis on seizing the timing and flying in to attack. But if you want, you can say that he is avoiding a leg kick since you like that opening.

Or you can use the leg raise as a hook in combination with the upward deflection.

If you scissor the forces, it will be like Mantis Offers Peach to throw.

Then jam in with the low line palm.

That's another simple combo attack.

-N-

12-05-2012, 11:51 PM

Ok, here's a section from Gung Lik Kuen you that you can turn into a 2 person drill.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/temp-200-22802322.gif

Both start with right side facing each other.

You steal step and make low attack to the leg.

Other person withdraws the right leg and gives you a left punch to the face at the same time.

You spin and grab/clear the left punch with your left. Continue with right forearm smash to the head/neck.

Other person prevents/slips out of the grab before it is complete, clears your left smash with his right. He transfers control of the clear to his left rising hand. He steal steps in to attack low to your leg.

Now you withdraw your right leg while punching to his face with your left.

Other person spins, grabs your attack, and smashes in with right forearm to your head/neck.

You slip out your left before his grab becomes solid, use your right to clear his right smash upwards, transfer control to your left upward hand, steal step to attack low to his leg.

That is one complete cycle. Continue back and forth until speed, agility, power, timing, sensitivity, endurance, explosiveness, etc are improved or you are exhausted.

In the video, his low and high attacks are more vertical than we like. And also too wide and telegraphing. We tend to be more 45 degree arcing down, so there is some sideways to our strikes.

This drill will let the partners train the close timing in escaping the steal step and spin advances.

This also trains the agility to change quickly between defensive and offensive footwork as did the other drill I suggested.

The partners also train the grab(or use a clear if you have gloves on) to open for the forearm strike. They also get to practice the proper timing to neutralize the grab opening.

In countering the high forearm strike, the defense uses Praying Mantis Ou Lou Choi timing with right and left hands to intercept and control, followed by the right low strike.

Both partners get to work on distance adjustments that enable effective attacks/escapes.

Another way to do a partner drill with this is to chase your partner down with the combination attack 10x, then switch immediately and make him chase you back with his 10 attacks.

Drilling this way, you try to cover as much distance as possible on the attacks to develop the ability to overrun your opponent.

The other person needs to escape just enough to make you miss, but still be in position to counter attack. He escapes far enough to make you really have to work to get him.

Good cardio drill, and more fun than running or biking.

Not my first choice for a practical combo, but I use it because you mentioned that low attack in another thread.

Good training exercise with the low/high transitions and the footwork.

YouKnowWho

12-06-2012, 02:44 AM

I'm not a Long Fist guy,...

Both of those 2 forms are not longfist forms. The Lien Bu Chuan came from Sichuan dragon system. The Gong Li Chuan came from the Gong Li system. That's why if people just skip those 2 forms in their training path, they won't miss anything. The Tantui is good enough to build up the longfist foundation.

The reason those 2 forms were used as the longfist system beginner level training because when a longfist teacher taugh Tantui to his students, the drop out rate was too high. Most longfist teachers just stopped teaching Tantui.

I did use the following move (without the body turning) to win one of my challenge fights. When I was young, I could jump 15 feet by using that footwork.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/temp-200-22802322.gif

bawang

12-06-2012, 06:51 AM

The reason those 2 forms were used as the longfist system beginner level training because when a longfist teacher taugh Tantui to his students, the drop out rate was too high. Most longfist teachers just stopped teaching Tantui.

how come man

YouKnowWho

12-06-2012, 01:28 PM

how come man

The Tantui form has a lot of kicks. For a beginner to hold his leg in the air for a period of time until the teacher has corrected all students postures may be just too hard for beginners. Both Lien Bu Chuan and Gong Li Chuan doesn't have many kicks. To hold a punching posture for 2 minutes is much easier than to hold a kicking posture for 2 minutes.

-N-

12-06-2012, 06:08 PM

Can anybody extract any good combo drills from these 2 forms?

So what drills would you extract if you had to?

YouKnowWho

12-06-2012, 07:16 PM

So what drills would you extract if you had to?
Almost all TCMA forms has such move that your opponent punches/kicks you, you block it, and then do something after that. Some people even call that self defense with higher priority than free sparring.

I don't like any drills that I have to wait for my opponent to attack me. I like offense drills that I initial my attack whenever I want to. If my opponent attacks me first, I may just move back and play defense until I'm ready to attack back.

If I don't attack, I can dance around and play defense. If I do attack, I want to finish my fight right at that moment. If I fail, I'll move back and wait for my oppornity for my next attack. I also don't like single move drills. I like combo drills that one move can be used to set up another move.

I always like to start from a groin kick, knee joint kick, or foot sweep (kicks that's hard to be caught). Since my goal is to use kick, punch to set up my throw, any kick, punch combo that won''t be able to help me to link to my throw will serve me no purpose. After examing all the forms that I have learned in my life time, I finally decide that I just have to create my own drills for the kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strike integration. The day when I found out what I need, I lost interest in all my TCMA forms. It's much easier for me to create my own drills than trying to extract drills out of the TCMA forms that I have learned.

-N-

12-06-2012, 08:42 PM

Almost all TCMA forms has such move that your opponent punches/kicks you, you block it, and then do something after that. Some people even call that self defense with higher priority than free sparring.

I don't like any drills that I have to wait for my opponent to attack me. I like offense drills that I initial my attack whenever I want to.

If you can do it against his attack, you can do it against his guard.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/temp-200-60371276.gif

You use right hand to deflect the high attack upwards. Raise the left knee to dive forward and down into the opening with left low palm attack.

Other person shifts back and clears the low attack and returns a right high attack.

You run into his attack, clear with left hand, and shoot a right punch in his face.

Just change "deflect the high attack upwards" to "deflect his guard hand upwards to create your opening".

If you start further away, then precede with "kick opponent's shin" before immediately attacking with the upward deflect, middle palm strike, follow up grab punch to face.

Don't have to wait for him to punch. Just grab his arm/sleeve/shirt and punch his face after the palm attack.

That's your combination attack started with a kick. Doesn't have to be defensive at all.

One of my students studied Aiki Jitsu in Japan for over 20 years. Some of his techniques he didn't like because they only worked when you let the other person attack first.

I said, "What you talking about? Just grab him and punch him first, now continue with your technique."

It was similar to a Praying Mantis one, and he hadn't seen it set up with an attack opening.

So he started to relook at a bunch of his Aiki Jitsu. He wasn't hippy dippy airy fairy either. He used to go into different schools and ask to be taught a lesson. They took that as an invitation to show the white guy how things are done. Sometimes he kicked ass. Other times he got his ass handed to him, which he accepted gratefully.

He ended up with some old school teacher with gang affiliations. And they both went about getting into all kinds of trouble.

YouKnowWho

12-07-2012, 12:30 AM

If you can do it against his attack, you can do it against his guard.

If my opponent attacks me, he has closed in the distance for me so I don't have to do that myself. To me, it's a bonus, but I don't want to be lazy and always expect my opponent to do that for me. I like to train my "mobility". I like to train combo with fast footwork. If I can still move as fast as the following clip when I'm 80 years old, I'll be quite happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

-N-

12-07-2012, 07:45 AM

If my opponent attacks me, he has closed in the distance for me so I don't have to do that myself. To me, it's a bonus, but I don't want to be lazy and always expect my opponent to do that for me. I like to train my "mobility". I like to train combo with fast footwork. If I can still move as fast as the following clip when I'm 80 years old, I'll be quite happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY
I like that clip.

Combining the two is good also.

As soon as you read the other guy's intent to attack, you use your mobility and combo to steal his attack and overwhelm him.

Your attack is over before you are done thinking "attack", and even before the other guy realizes that he himself is attacking. That's where Praying Mantis speed lives.

YouKnowWho

12-07-2012, 02:45 PM

As soon as you read the other guy's intent to attack, you use your mobility and combo to steal his attack and overwhelm him.

Your attack is over before you are done thinking "attack", and even before the other guy realizes that he himself is attacking. That's where Praying Mantis speed lives.
Agree! To be able to read your opponent's intention is important. When you detect your opponent's intention, you detect "leak" and move in. You can also use your fast punches to force your opponent to block your punches, you can then detect his "leak". This is why I love the "jab, cross, hook, hook" combo (from longfist扑按对打Pu An Dui Da), as long as I can keep my opponent busy, I can always be able to find "leak".

If we look at all TCMA systems, we can see a lot of styles that emphasize on "power generation", styles such as Baji, XYLH, Chen Taiji. If you move slow and relax, you can always get a good "power generation" as showing in this clip:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk3NDAwNA==.html?f=1718730

We just don't see that many styles emphasize on "speed generation", styles such as praying mantis and Zimen.

EarthDragon

12-07-2012, 03:12 PM

We just don't see that many styles emphasize on "speed generation", styles such as praying mantis and Zimen.

Shifu always said strength can be matched by strength, technique can be matched by tech, but nothing can matche speed.......... even if u got bigger gun I draw first you die, speed =power =win

Syn7

12-10-2012, 12:23 AM

Syn7

12-10-2012, 12:25 AM

Shifu always said strength can be matched by strength, technique can be matched by tech, but nothing can matche speed.......... even if u got bigger gun I draw first you die, speed =power =win

To a point yeah. But if you can't hurt the guy, eventually he'll get his licks in if you don't bounce out.

ginosifu

12-10-2012, 08:08 AM

Strength / Speed / Skill / Courage

All 4 are needed tobe an effective fighter. Stronger fighter can hit harder. Faster fighters can hit you first. Skillful fighter can out technique you. Couageous fighters are not afraid and apply the other 3 better.

Examples:

Both fighters are equal in speed, skill and courage. However one fighter is stronger. The stronger fighter will win out everytime.

If you switch speed, skill or courage the same result will happen.

ginosifu

MightyB

12-10-2012, 09:58 AM

I always like to start from a groin kick, knee joint kick, or foot sweep (kicks that's hard to be caught). Since my goal is to use kick, punch to set up my throw, any kick, punch combo that won''t be able to help me to link to my throw will serve me no purpose. After examing all the forms that I have learned in my life time, I finally decide that I just have to create my own drills for the kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strike integration. The day when I found out what I need, I lost interest in all my TCMA forms. It's much easier for me to create my own drills than trying to extract drills out of the TCMA forms that I have learned.

I'll paraphrase something my Sifu said, but basically principle transcends technique and even style. Once you understand the principle, it really doesn't matter where the technique comes from.

For example, in mantis - there's a lot of osoto gari type of throws. But they don't do it the way Judo does it, they set up by first tying up the person's arms. They do this because if you went in and tried to set it up judo style on the street by grabbing, you'll most likely walk away with a fat lip. Then I noticed all throws / trips in mantis are set up by tying up the person's arms. This means the principle is tie up the guys arms to throw him. It doesn't really matter how I tie up the person's arms, but I should tie them up to set up a throw. The forms just give me a couple of examples to work from.

YouKnowWho

12-10-2012, 11:57 AM

how I tie up the person's arms, ...

If you just wrap your opponent's arms, that's not too hard to tie up your opponent's arms. The problem is you have just given your opponent an early warning that striking game is over and the grappling game just start.

When do you want to tie up your opponent's arms is very interesting. If you can wait until your last second to do so, you can merge control and throw as one single move instead of separate moves as grab and throw. In order to do so, you really have to do a good job on your striking and throwing integration. This will lead to "no trapping - no bridging" approach, the moment that you touch your opponent's arm , the moment that you take your opponent down. This is much harder to do than to get into clinching first and worry about throw later approach.

David Jamieson

12-10-2012, 12:36 PM

The Tantui form has a lot of kicks. For a beginner to hold his leg in the air for a period of time until the teacher has corrected all students postures may be just too hard for beginners. Both Lien Bu Chuan and Gong Li Chuan doesn't have many kicks. To hold a punching posture for 2 minutes is much easier than to hold a kicking posture for 2 minutes.

Actually, you will still learn Lien Bo and Tan Tui if you study North Shaolin that is referred to as "Bak Sil Lum". Anyone connected to Kwong Wing Lam for instance or any of his higher or lower classmates in Bak Sil Lum still teach the system in this manner. I learned these sets from my teacher who in turn learned the style from Ma Ching Fung.

I've seen YJM lien Bo and it is a pretty different set from that which is in BSL. Same with the Tan Tui. It's as if there is a departure in the 3rd or 4th road and the whole set becomes something different.

Fwiw, tan tui is a great development set no matter where on the timeline of your training. Lien Bo is a great beginners set.

-N-

12-10-2012, 01:32 PM

When do you want to tie up your opponent's arms is very interesting. If you can wait until your last second to do so, you can merge control and throw as one single move instead of separate moves as grab and throw. In order to do so, you really have to do a good job on your striking and throwing integration. This will lead to "no trapping - no bridging" approach, the moment that you touch your opponent's arm , the moment that you take your opponent down. This is much harder to do than to get into clinching first and worry about throw later approach.

That's what classical Mantis is all about, which is documented in the forms.

YouKnowWho

12-10-2012, 01:50 PM

That's what classical Mantis is all about, which is documented in the forms.
The moment you touch, the moment you throw is very high level skill. Speed and angle to cut in play a very important role here.

MightyB

12-10-2012, 02:02 PM

I'll paraphrase something my Sifu said, but basically principle transcends technique and even style. Once you understand the principle, it really doesn't matter where the technique comes from.

For example, in mantis - there's a lot of osoto gari type of throws. But they don't do it the way Judo does it, they set up by first tying up the person's arms. They do this because if you went in and tried to set it up judo style on the street by grabbing, you'll most likely walk away with a fat lip. Then I noticed all throws / trips in mantis are set up by tying up the person's arms. This means the principle is tie up the guys arms to throw him. It doesn't really matter how I tie up the person's arms, but I should tie them up to set up a throw. The forms just give me a couple of examples to work from.

I think once you get to that point that YouKnowWho is describing where he lost interest in forms and started working his own combinations is that point where you start to dabble in the mastery of TCMA. Adding that to my Sifu's explanation that principle transcends technique / style etc - I think that's the point where No Style is the rule because you can and will borrow from all styles and use what's natural for you.

YouKnowWho

12-10-2012, 02:48 PM

In combat when you stand face to face with your opponent, the "front cut (osoto gari)" may be the most nature way to take your opponent down. You use your hands to do your hand's job and use your leg to do your leg job, which is different from the wrestling single leg or double legs that you use your hand to do your leg job.

YouKnowWho

12-22-2012, 03:53 PM

xinyidizi

12-22-2012, 07:55 PM

Most TCMA teachers teach students forms. The teacher then explains the application. This approach has a problem.

In the following longfist San Lu Pao Quan 三路炮拳 at 1.18 - 1.19. There is a groin kick, face punch combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLnVHNGsSno

It follows the kick low, and punch high principle. The form creator may assumed that his opponent dropped down leading arm to block the kick. He then punches at the exposed face. What if his opponent raises his leg to block the kick. Since his opponent's arms may still be on guard. He should add a left hand move to open his opponent's guard before he can punch at the face.

Will most teachers explain both cases during form application? What if the teacher only cover the 1st case? When will his student learn the 2nd case situation? Wait for another form that cover that situation?

If you teach how to use a groin kick to set up a face punch, you will cover all cases. You don't have to be restricted by a form that someone created long time ago.

I think you have too much expectations from forms. Don't you think trying to fit everything in forms is unnecessary? Forms have never been the ultimate goal in TCMA as far as I know. They are just for teaching the students how to move their bodies and I think they are very efficient instruments for that purpose. Probably single moves are like learning the alphabet, forms/combinations are like making words and partner drills are like learning to make example sentences. When you learn a language you also follow that order but it's unnecessary and impossible to learn all the possible sentences that can be made with the whole vocabulary of the language because after doing the basic training you can go out and start communicating with people. There you will face a lot of new situations that were not in your books but if you have a good foundation you will learn to make your own sentences as you communicate with people.
My experience is very limited and I don't know how it works in other styles but in Xinyi the combat training starts in sparring or doing drills with the teacher and in them the teacher can teach lots of variations in the moves as well as changing between them but in order to learn anything out of it that way the student needs to have internalized body movements in doing empty hand moves. A student who has a good jibengong will learn everything quickly but a student who hasn't done the jibengong and wants to jump into combat training will stand there like a zombie unless he has a natural talent but leaving everything to talent is inefficient for most people.

MightyB

12-22-2012, 08:18 PM

I think you have too much expectations from forms. Don't you think trying to fit everything in forms is unnecessary? Forms have never been the ultimate goal in TCMA as far as I know. They are just for teaching the students how to move their bodies and I think they are very efficient instruments for that purpose.

Or so we "say" but don't "do". YKW posted on another thread with a link to a style I had never heard of, so I googled it to see some video. Lo and behold you can find a sh*t ton of forms, but no real applications. Sadly I see this too often. You do a search for kung fu stuff, you find forms, a lot of forms, and cooperative "applications", and when you do find sparring type of stuff, a lot of it isn't good. YKW is voicing his position and it comes from a legitimate TCMA background. If he's saying there's a problem, people need to stop arguing so much and ask why he's seeing one. Actually he's been doing a good job talking in detail from a perspective based on a lifetime of experience.

xinyidizi

12-22-2012, 08:30 PM

Or so we "say" but don't "do". YKW posted on another thread with a link to a style I had never heard of, so I googled it to see some video. Lo and behold you can find a sh*t ton of forms, but no real applications. Sadly I see this too often. You do a search for kung fu stuff, you find forms, a lot of forms, and cooperative "applications", and when you do find sparring type of stuff, a lot of it isn't good. YKW is voicing his position and it comes from a legitimate TCMA background. If he's saying there's a problem, people need to stop arguing so much and ask why he's seeing one. Actually he's been doing a good job talking in detail from a perspective based on a lifetime of experience.

Everyone who wants to learn good TCMA that can turn you into a fighter knows that there is something very very wrong with the current situation but I believe the order of doing things in TCMA is not wrong. The problem is that due to unnecessary secrecy and/or laziness most of the people who call themselves teachers haven't done the combat training properly.

MightyB

12-22-2012, 08:41 PM

Everyone who wants to learn good TCMA that can turn you into a fighter knows that there is something very very wrong with the current situation but I believe the order of doing things in TCMA is not wrong. The problem is that due to unnecessary secrecy and/or laziness most of the people who call themselves teachers haven't done the combat training properly.

and this is part of the point and philosophy that YKW and others have been pushing. I agree with them on some points and disagree on others.

Personally I have a love/hate relationship with forms. I view them in different lights depending on my mood or if I've had what I consider a personal breakthrough regarding them.

I think ultimately forms were a way for a teacher to try and preserve some aspect of themselves and incorporate it into the art. It was probably a favorite combination or theory which they and others built on. As a whole, we probably take them too literally. I do believe that you should learn all the forms of a given style in order to claim to be a master of that style because you should show respect to those who came before you in that style. So for that reason alone I'll personally never be a TCMA master. I'd rather spend time on a few forms that appeal to me, do "internal" conditioning with gungs, cross train, and then spar with everybody I meet to see if I can make any of the principles work. It's no longer fun for me to practice without some type of randori, rolling or sparring. When I get old, it'll still be randori, but I'll probably replace striking with push hands or chi sao. (note to self, learn enough wing chun to get to the chi sao drilling stage so I can do it when I'm old).

xinyidizi

12-23-2012, 01:19 AM

I think ultimately forms were a way for a teacher to try and preserve some aspect of themselves and incorporate it into the art. It was probably a favorite combination or theory which they and others built on. As a whole, we probably take them too literally. I do believe that you should learn all the forms of a given style in order to claim to be a master of that style because you should show respect to those who came before you in that style. So for that reason alone I'll personally never be a TCMA master. [/I]

In Xinyi we don't have forms except for a short combination called siba but there are many moves and countless combinations that anyone can make for himself (as long as they are not too unrealistic) but no one will master all the moves equally as they are meant for different types of bodies. A legitimate teacher would need to learn them all to be able to teach them to different types of students but for becoming a fighter there is a limited number that one needs to master in sparring. It's a pity that this art is also gradually moving towards becoming a performance art like the others.

YouKnowWho

12-23-2012, 08:48 AM

In Xinyi we don't have forms except for a short combination called siba but there are many moves and countless combinations that anyone can make for himself.

XingYi master 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) created one short form for his own practicing. Since the form was too short, he repeated the sequence twice to make it longer. He taught to my teacher as personal training tool but my teacher passed it down anyway. It's called 形精 Xing Jin Quan.

http://shappy.sourceforge.net/yangqg/apfs16.html

Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), people of hejian, Hebei Province House. At the age of 8 from Liu Xiaolan learned bajiquan, 14 years old from the famous Boxing Boxing Guo Yun deep acquisition, and later teacher Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two pointing. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor Good Fight, good practice the martial arts, people are "Liu Erbiao". Representatives of modern boxing art experiment one. Horse Hall of martial arts teacher

xinyidizi

12-23-2012, 10:43 PM

XingYi master 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) created one short form for his own practicing. Since the form was too short, he repeated the sequence twice to make it longer. He taught to my teacher as personal training tool but my teacher passed it down anyway. It's called 形精 Xing Jin Quan.

http://shappy.sourceforge.net/yangqg/apfs16.html

Liu Weixiang (1864-1936), people of hejian, Hebei Province House. At the age of 8 from Liu Xiaolan learned bajiquan, 14 years old from the famous Boxing Boxing Guo Yun deep acquisition, and later teacher Song Shirong, Bai Xiyuan two pointing. After many years of hard study, the Panel was superb. Valor Good Fight, good practice the martial arts, people are "Liu Erbiao". Representatives of modern boxing art experiment one. Horse Hall of martial arts teacher

I don't know much about xingyi but I think having any fixed forms in xinyi is unnecessary because the moves were designed to flexibly change into other moves and people can design their own forms easily. Of course there are some general rules for designing a form but it's not rocket science.

LaRoux

12-27-2012, 02:06 PM

Why can we train like this - no style? Your thought?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsLkqwQrCS8

That looks like a style being demonstrated against an compliant partner to me. What makes you think it isn't a style?

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 02:37 PM

That looks like a style being demonstrated against an compliant partner to me. What makes you think it isn't a style?

You need

- compliant partner for "training".
- non-compliant partner for "testing".

bawang

12-27-2012, 03:43 PM

You need

- compliant partner for "training".
- non-compliant partner for "testing".

combat training must always be non compliant

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 03:48 PM

combat training must always be non compliant

If your opponent just sits on the ground and refuses to stand on his feet, there is no way that you can use him to develop your hip throw. What good is your training partner if he can't help you to develop your technique?

The word compliant and non-compliant are misleading. When you attack, your opponent's non-compliant could mean:

- escape out of,
- resist against it,
- yield into it,
- never give you an opportunity.

If you can run faster than your opponent, even the best striker in the world won't be able to hit you. Is that non-compliant?

bawang

12-27-2012, 06:27 PM

If your opponent just sits on the ground and refuses to stand on his feet, there is no way that you can use him to develop your hip throw.

then i crush him under my heel. like jesus christ crush satan.

Kellen Bassette

12-27-2012, 07:10 PM

combat training must always be non compliant

I think you need a compliant partner to learn the technique. Then you need a non compliant partner to test it on. Some things you just can't develop in the heat of sparring...at least not well, you need to get the technique down and refine it. Then you can work it with non-compliance.

bawang

12-27-2012, 09:43 PM

I think you need a compliant partner to learn the technique. Then you need a non compliant partner to test it on. Some things you just can't develop in the heat of sparring...at least not well, you need to get the technique down and refine it. Then you can work it with non-compliance.

non compliance creates magical thinking and will turn your ass into a soccer ball

pazman

12-27-2012, 10:04 PM

Bawang, what are some martial arts that have only non-compliant training?

bawang

12-27-2012, 10:05 PM

Bawang, what are some martial arts that have only non-compliant training?

boxing wrestling and mma

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 10:12 PM

boxing wrestling and mma

What's your definition of non-compliance? Can you make love to your girl if she is non-compliant?

pazman

12-27-2012, 10:12 PM

boxing wrestling and mma

Nope. If you've ever trained in those you'd know that all of them depend on both compliant and non-compliant drills. If you say that combat training requires non-compliance, then you are correct, but both kinds of drills are utilized.

bawang

12-27-2012, 10:14 PM

What's your definition of non-compliance? Resistance?

the receiving partner acting in a realistic manner

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 10:18 PM

the receiving partner acting in a realistic manner

In training, what should your opponent react in a realistic manner when you apply a hip throw on him?

bawang

12-27-2012, 10:20 PM

In training, what should your opponent react in a realistic manner when you apply a hip throw on him?

try not to get thrown

Nope. If you've ever trained in those you'd know that all of them depend on both compliant and non-compliant drills. If you say that combat training requires non-compliance, then you are correct, but both kinds of drills are utilized.

if you try using unrealistic kung fu techniques and get ur ass brutally kicked, you would understand where i am coming from. you sound like your ass is still tender virgin.

pazman

12-27-2012, 10:31 PM

Okay Bawang, I think you might have a different idea of what "non-compliance" means, then.

Here are some "uchikomi" drills that a judo player will do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbs_aGNZVnI

I consider these compliant in that the receiving partner doesn't try to resist or try to make the the other player "lose". These are also required drills in learning the technique.

Non-compliant training would be either "mini-games" meant to isolate the technique or skill in question, or sparring. In this case, partners offer up resistance and try to "win" the situation.

pazman

12-27-2012, 10:36 PM

try not to get thrown

if you try using unrealistic kung fu techniques and get ur ass brutally kicked, you would understand where i am coming from. you sound like your ass is still tender virgin.

Sounds like you are bitter about receiving bad instruction. Go learn some boxing. Wear pajamas and call it taiji. Sounds like your problems would be solved.

bawang

12-27-2012, 10:37 PM

Sounds like you are bitter about receiving bad instruction. Go learn some boxing. Wear pajamas and call it taiji. Sounds like your problems would be solved.

this is exactly what im doing bro

pazman

12-27-2012, 10:47 PM

this is exactly what im doing bro

http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2011/12/Barry-Bonds-Thumbs-Up.jpg

You will learn the secret to the taiji push hands: sucker punch them before they sucker punch you.

bawang

12-27-2012, 10:51 PM

when discussing we must know what is the context and the appropriateness.

it would be appropriate for mma forum to discuss compliance training because it might benefit them. this is a kung fu forum. almost all modern kung fu training is compliance training.so our attitude toward compiance training should not be positive.

the spirit of this discussion has not been about the merits of compliance training for combat. it has been used as an excuse to not train realistically and to justify the compliance training in kung fu.

in modern martial arts compliance partner drills is an accessory exercise. in kung fu it is usually the sole partner exercise. compliant drills is good for judo, its not good for kung fu.

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 10:59 PM

try not to get thrown...

How? Are you talking about resistance? What kind of resistance?

- Sinking down?
- Moving back?
- Moving forward?
- Spinning?
- Jumping up?
- Apply hip throw counters?
- ...

The thing is if you do something, I suppose to borrow your force and execute different throw. You are helping me to develop other throws but not hip throw.

If you apply this, even the best throwing master on this planet won't be able to throw you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o7-XVuYXW8

If you resist, you are helping your opponent to train "use hip throw to set up inner hook". You are not helping him to train hip throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPPY3A89dFo

I must miss something here. Please help me.

bawang

12-27-2012, 11:06 PM

How? Are you talking about resistance? What kind of resistance?

- Sinking down?
- Moving back?
- Moving forward?
- Spinning?
- Jumping up?
- Apply hip throw counters?
- ...

The thing is if you do something, I suppose to borrow your force and execute different throw. You are helping me to develop other throws but not hip throw.

the whole point of a two partner drill is that your partner is a human being. if you need to practice the motion of your throw, use a log.

in old times the two man forms in long fist was done in full force. if you miss you are knocked out. this is non compliance.

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 11:19 PM

I won't call that compliance because your opponent still move in a predefined pattern.

In the throwing art, the harder that your opponent may resist, the easier that you can throw him. In the striking art, your opponent's resistance may force him to run into your punch or kick.

Kellen Bassette

12-27-2012, 11:19 PM

almost all modern kung fu training is compliance training.so our attitude toward compiance training should not be positive.

the spirit of this discussion has not been about the merits of compliance training for combat. it has been used as an excuse to not train realistically and to justify the compliance training in kung fu.

I completely agree that without training against a non-compliant partner your never going to be able to use your art effectively. But how are you going to develop a good sweep from a clinch without working it for a while with a willing partner? If you just go straight into sparring/grappling with him your not going to have a good feel for the mechanics.

How about standing with your guard up in a fighting stance and deflecting punches? Drill it for 5 minutes, then test it moving around with more techs in a sparring situation. Much better than trying to parry punches when you've never practiced the technique.

Check a low roundhouse with your knee. It takes a bit to get the timing on that. Try learning it in the ring with a non compliant partner and you won't be walking.

I get you that a lot of people have watered down KF by only doing compliance training, where they get in a rhythm and know exactly what's going to happen; or practice unrealistic, choreographed self defense techniques against a guy leaving his arm fully extended for them...but if your going to develop the basics you got to have some amount of drilling/refining technique in a compliant/learning situation, before you jump directly into applying it.

MMA does this all the time too. You don't think BJJ guys practice their submissions on a partner who is using minimal resistance, until they get the lock down? You don't think mma guys practice slipping a punch and shooting for a take down, when their partner knows this is going to happen, allows it to happen then pulls the other guy into guard, with him also knowing this is going to happen?

Kellen Bassette

12-27-2012, 11:22 PM

in old times the two man forms in long fist was done in full force. if you miss you are knocked out. this is non compliance.

Actually that's pretty much compliant training too. You already know what he's supposed to do and he does it.

Still no reason you can't practice the two man form full force today. Just keep knocking your partners out until you get a guy who will block for real. :D

bawang

12-27-2012, 11:24 PM

If you just go straight into sparring/grappling with him your not going to have a good feel for the mechanics.

kung fu doesnt spar/grapple. thats why its not good for us to speak positively about compliance.

Actually that's pretty much compliant training too. You already know what he's supposed to do and he does it.

Still no reason you can't practice the two man form full force today. Just keep knocking your partners out until you get a guy who will block for real. :D

compliance means i willingly let you perform the technique on me.

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 11:27 PM

I have always believed that if you can beat up all

- kid in grade school,
- young boys in junior high,
- young guys in senior high,

you will develop some solid combat skill. The water have to fill up the hole before it can overflow.

Kellen Bassette

12-27-2012, 11:29 PM

kung fu doesnt spar/grapple. thats why its not good for us to speak positively about compliance.

:confused::confused::confused: What?????

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 11:31 PM

kung fu doesnt spar/grapple. thats why its not good for us to speak positively about compliance.

In another "internal" forum that people over there only like to talk about "Yin muscle and Yang muscle", they may not spar/wrestle much. I though everybody in this forum are all bad assess. :D

bawang

12-27-2012, 11:33 PM

:confused::confused::confused: What?????

kung fu as an entity, an idea. non serious ethnic dance class/fantasy role playing.

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 11:36 PM

kung fu as an entity, an idea. non serious ethnic dance class/fantasy role playing.

You don't have much faith in TCMA do you? When I tried to defend the honor of the TCMA, I felt pressure from the MMA group. I also felt pressure from the TCMA group.

When I talk about "sinking", people in Karate forum can't careless about it. When I talk about "combat strategy", people in "internal" forum also can't careless about it.

The "correct way of the TCMA training" is like banana. The MMA guys think the outside is not white enough. The TCMA guys think the inside is not yellow enough. It's pretty sad indeed.

Kellen Bassette

12-27-2012, 11:44 PM

kung fu as an entity, an idea. non serious ethnic dance class/fantasy role playing.

Kung Fu has an identity crisis, as does Karate, Tae Kwon Do and a lot of the other so called traditional arts. The main problem is that people do not teach traditionally, have never been taught traditionally, don't know the history and don't have the will to do the hard work. That and they like their fantasy land.

Karate is somewhat newer, they may or may not have had these traditions in their past. Tae Kwon Do is essentially modern. They have an excuse. Kung Fu has no excuse. Sparring, fighting, partner training and conditioning are historically huge aspects of Kung Fu. If someone doesn't teach these things they aren't teaching traditional KF.

I think I see a lot of folks on this forum who at least talk like they do/teach these things. It's up to the new generation of teachers and students to go back to the roots of Kung Fu as a martial art, a method of combat...if we want it to be preserved as anything more than a folk dance.

bawang

12-27-2012, 11:46 PM

You don't have much faith in TCMA do you? When I tried to defend the honor of the TCMA, I felt pressure from the MMA group. I also felt pressure from the TCMA group.

When I talk about "sinking", people in Karate forum can't careless about it. When I talk about combat strategy, people in "internal" forum also can't careless about it. It's pretty sad indeed.

there are three lineages of tcma

-original tcma
- bruce lee lineage

- jet li lineage

i follow original lineage tcma.

Kung Fu has an identity crisis, as does Karate, Tae Kwon Do and a lot of the other so called traditional arts. The main problem is that people do not teach traditionally, have never been taught traditionally, don't know the history and don't have the will to do the hard work. That and they like their fantasy land.

no. kung fu does not have an identity crisis. it is merely the rice bowl factory gone out of control.

when UFC showed up in the 90s, kung fu was humiliated and many people claimed to "change their ways and train real combat" to save face. this is not identity crisis, this is just being a two faced hypocrite. kissing mma ass when confronted, insulting mma when they arent in the room.

many kung fu people try to train "realistic" not out of desire to fight and kill, but ego.

Kellen Bassette

12-27-2012, 11:49 PM

there are three lineages of tcma

-original tcma
- bruce lee lineage

- jet li lineage

i follow original lineage tcma.

That sounds about right.

What about your training personally? You seem to know a lot of the history and don't like the pretenders...

So are you sparring, conditioning, partner training??

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 11:52 PM

I don't follow any lineage tcma. I'll take it until I can find something better".

bawang

12-27-2012, 11:53 PM

That sounds about right.

What about your training personally? You seem to know a lot of the history and don't like the pretenders...

So are you sparring, conditioning, partner training??

i do skwaats and bench press. im all alone.

bawang

12-27-2012, 11:55 PM

The "correct way of the TCMA training" is like banana. The MMA guys think the outside is not white enough. The TCMA guys think the inside is not yellow enough. It's pretty sad indeed.

a traditional saying goes, "when you have mud on your pants, people will say you sh1t yourself".

I don't follow any lineage tcma. I'll take it until I can find something better".

you train mongol buku. it is a good martial art.

Kellen Bassette

12-27-2012, 11:56 PM

i do skwaats and bench press.

That's strength training/conditioning....one traditional aspect...

I never understand the folks who say weight training is bad? How can being stronger ever hurt your martial arts? It's good for every other sport in the world accept your particular, special MA....you know the type..:rolleyes:

YouKnowWho

12-27-2012, 11:58 PM

a traditional saying goes, "when you have mud on your pants, people will say you sh1t yourself".

It's like some people think that they can use "soft" to kill their opponents.

Kellen Bassette

12-27-2012, 11:58 PM

it.

The "correct way of the TCMA training" is like banana. The MMA guys think the outside is not white enough. The TCMA guys think the inside is not yellow enough. It's pretty sad indeed.

That's what I say about my wife. :D

bawang

12-27-2012, 11:59 PM

That's strength training/conditioning....one traditional aspect...

I never understand the folks who say weight training is bad? How can being stronger ever hurt your martial arts? It's good for every other sport in the world accept your particular, special MA....you know the type..:rolleyes:

i am in college and tried finding sparring partners but they looked down on me because i was skinny. i started lifting to spar with them, but then i got bigger than them and lost my interest for sparring with them.

older american kung fu hobbyists come from 70's nerd/jock alpha/beta social hierarchy.

Kellen Bassette

12-28-2012, 12:01 AM

It's like some people think that they can use "soft" to kill their opponents.

I was talking to my cousin once before a MT fight; and he says to me, "don't be nervous, think about it...what style haven't you sparred against?"

I said, "I guess I've never sparred with a Tai Chi guy." He laughed and said let's see someone bring Tai Chi to a kick boxing match. :cool:

bawang

12-28-2012, 12:04 AM

I was talking to my cousin once before a MT fight; and he says to me, "don't be nervous, think about it...what style haven't you sparred against?"

I said, "I guess I've never sparred with a Tai Chi guy." He laughed and said let's see someone bring Tai Chi to a kick boxing match. :cool:

when i was a boy, before i spar, i think "i must defend honor of kung fu" and i was very nervous.

now if i spar, i think "you dare fuk with me, i will fuk your mother poosy". and im not nervous.

so i think the spirit of kung fu is to fuk your enemyes mother poosy, to become strong.

YouKnowWho

12-28-2012, 12:06 AM

let's see someone bring Tai Chi to a kick boxing match. :cool:
Do you know that "push" only exists in the Taiji system? The push is not a punch. It's not a throw either. I don't know what it is.

bawang

12-28-2012, 12:08 AM

Do you know that "push" only exists in the Taiji system? The push is not a punch. It's not a throw either. I don't know what it is.

push is hongquan slang for palm strike. in corrupt taiji system it became actual useless push.

when taiji was chen village boxing (hongquan, changquan, pao chui) it was real martial art.

Kellen Bassette

12-28-2012, 12:10 AM

i am in college and tried finding sparring partners but they looked down on me because i was skinny. i started lifting to spar with them, but then i got bigger than them and lost my interest for sparring with them.

older american kung fu hobbyists come from 70's nerd/jock alpha/beta social hierarchy.

Yeah, I know the type you mean. The good news is there are KF schools competing in kick boxing and mma now, more and more traditional guys who want to fight. The sport fighting really forces you to reengage the "lost" hard traditional training. It applies to self defense as well. I really believe that's what's needed.

Kyokushin Karate was founded in the early '60's. It was based on 2 traditional styles. The founder just wanted to make fighters. They kept the katas and traditional drills, just train hard for fighting, conditioning, bags and weights. Now they have a good reputation for producing fighters.

All it takes is doing the hard work. Teachers are afraid they will lose students if they work them too hard. But there's schools out there that don't care and say if you don't like it go elsewhere. The other method is teaching a forms class and a sanda class.

I'm sure there's a line of people on this forum that want to spar you. by know. :cool:

YouKnowWho

12-28-2012, 12:11 AM

push is hongquan slang for palm strike. in corrupt taiji system it became actual useless push.

Longfist has palm strike too but it always applies on the side of the neck. SC has push too but it always include a leg sweep, leg hook, ...

bawang

12-28-2012, 12:13 AM

Yeah, I know the type you mean. The good news is there are KF schools competing in kick boxing and mma now, more and more traditional guys who want to fight. The sport fighting really forces you to reengage the "lost" hard traditional training. It applies to self defense as well. I really believe that's what's needed.

but most kung fu people competing arent winning. they are competing in mma, most train basically mma, but arent winning.

because they train to "restore honor of kung fu" "defend kung fu" "regain lost kung fu". they dont train for the love of violence.

the meaning of tcma is spirituality through brutality. enlightenment through violence.

Kellen Bassette

12-28-2012, 12:13 AM

when i was a boy, before i spar, i think "i must defend honor of kung fu" and i was very nervous.

now if i spar, i think "you dare fuk with me, i will fuk your mother poosy". and im not nervous.

so i think the spirit of kung fu is to fuk your enemyes mother poosy, to become strong.

Whatever puts you in the mindset..that's your KF. Some folks get scared, their adrenaline pumps and they fight well. Other guys get scared and forget how.

Some guys get mad and just charge and flail, other get mad and they focus better...whatever works for you.

Kellen Bassette

12-28-2012, 12:15 AM

but most kung fu people competing arent winning. they are competing in mma, most train basically mma, but arent winning.

because they train to "restore honor of kung fu" "defend kung fu" "regain lost kung fu". they dont train for the love of violence.

the meaning of tcma is spirituality through brutality. enlightenment through violence.

Your 100% right.

You don't fight to honor your system. You fight because your a fighter.

bawang

12-28-2012, 12:17 AM

Whatever puts you in the mindset..that's your KF. Some folks get scared, their adrenaline pumps and they fight well. Other guys get scared and forget how.

Some guys get mad and just charge and flail, other get mad and they focus better...whatever works for you.

i dont feel anything. i feel nothing.

YouKnowWho

12-28-2012, 12:19 AM

they dont train for the love of violence.

You have to be a bit violent to love combat. People said that when you get old, you will like more health, self-cultivation, and inner peace. Now I'm old. I still like combat. My mom must drop my head on the ground when I was a baby. :o

Kellen Bassette

12-28-2012, 12:20 AM

i dont feel anything. i feel nothing.

Can't help you there...

Kellen Bassette

12-28-2012, 12:22 AM

You have to be a bit violent to love combat. People said that when you get old, you will like more health, self-cultivation, and inner peace. Now I'm old. I still like combat. My mom must drop my head on the ground when I was a baby. :o

Nah...the tough old guys become trainers, because they see themselves in some hot headed young punk. :D

bawang

12-28-2012, 12:24 AM

You have to be a bit violent to love combat. People said that when you get old, you will like more health, self-cultivation, and inner peace. Now I'm old. I still like combat. My mom must drop my head on the ground when I was a baby. :o

violence is part of being a man. i wish my dad taught me this, but i had to learn this from dead silent men in books.

YouKnowWho

12-28-2012, 12:25 AM

Nah...the tough old guys become trainers, because they see themselves in some hot headed young punk. :D

The true reason for any old guy to train hard is because he doesn't want any 20 years old to beat him up.

One day a guy and his wife knocked on my door. The guy was a Judo champ in Israel. He challenged me in "push hand" in my living room. I told him that I don't do push hand but I was willing to spar or wrestle with him, He said that he had knee injury and no longer be able to wrestle.

There is nothing worse for someone knocks on your door and beat you up in your own living room.

bawang

12-28-2012, 12:25 AM

Can't help you there...

i only receive erection from watching kfc chicken torture video.

The true reason for any old guy to train hard is because he doesn't want any 20 years old to beat him up.

i dont feel like training when im old, by then women my age will have hanging skin and flappy vaginas. i dont need to impress anyone.

Kellen Bassette

12-28-2012, 12:33 AM

The true reason for any old guy to train hard is because he doesn't want any 20 years old to beat him up.

One day a guy and his wife knocked on my door. The guy was a Judo champ in Israel. He challenged me in "push hand" in my living room. I told him that I don't do push hand but I was willing to spar or wrestle with him, He said that he had knee injury and no longer be able to wrestle.

There is nothing worse for someone knocks on your door and beat you up in your own living room.

It's always funny though, when they can't do anything hard because of an injury or work tonight or w/e excuse, though. :rolleyes:

YouKnowWho

12-28-2012, 12:35 AM

i dont feel like training when im old, by then women my age will have hanging skin and flappy vaginas. i dont need to impress anyone.

After I had impressed my beautiful wife, I no longer need to impress any women. When I taught Taiji in YWCA, girls loved to touch my body and said, "as hard as rock". Even today water still dropped out of my wife's mouth when she saw my naked body.

bawang

12-28-2012, 12:36 AM

After I had impressed my beautiful wife, I no longer need to impress any women. When I taught Taiji in YWCA, girls loved to touch my body and said, "as hard as rock". Even today water still dropped out of my wife's mouth when she saw my naked body.

does she have flappy vagina, or hang loose like sleeve of wizard

YouKnowWho

12-28-2012, 12:37 AM

It's always funny though, when they can't do anything hard because of an injury or work tonight or w/e excuse, though. :rolleyes:
People love to say, "I used to be able to ... But I can't do it any more because ..."

JamesC

12-28-2012, 12:38 AM

YouKnowWho

12-28-2012, 12:40 AM

Wow, John. Wow.

When you have reached to my age, bragging about your past may be the only thing that have left. :o

My wife did say that I should do naked dance on the stage in some "girls only bar".

bawang

12-28-2012, 12:41 AM

When you have reached to my age, bragging about your past may be the only thing that have left. :o

please tell me more, baba. so i can learn to be like you.

Kellen Bassette

12-28-2012, 12:43 AM

When you have reached to my age, bragging about your past may be the only thing that have left. :o

You don't have to brag about your past with that mouth watering physique you have to this day! :eek:

pazman

12-28-2012, 09:44 AM

the whole point of a two partner drill is that your partner is a human being. if you need to practice the motion of your throw, use a log.

in old times the two man forms in long fist was done in full force. if you miss you are knocked out. this is non compliance.

Logs are good when you have no partner, but throwing logs and throwing people are different.

Two man forms are inherently compliant. Two man forms, no matter how "hardcore" they are trained, are not the same as non-compliant "games" or sparring.

-N-

12-28-2012, 12:34 PM

Even today water still dropped out of my wife's mouth when she saw my naked body.

Haha. Tea sprayed out of my nose. Does that count? :)

LaRoux

12-29-2012, 04:52 PM

You need

- compliant partner for "training".
- non-compliant partner for "testing".

Agreed.

That still doesn't make those clips "no-style".

LaRoux

12-29-2012, 04:55 PM

If you apply this, even the best throwing master on this planet won't be able to throw you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o7-XVuYXW8.

Of course he will. He will simply move into a more appropriate throw based on what the opponent in doing. That's basically what realistic throwing is all about.

YouKnowWho

01-02-2013, 02:56 PM

Of course he will. He will simply move into a more appropriate throw based on what the opponent in doing. That's basically what realistic throwing is all about.

That counter is almost like "pull guard" or "jump guard". Besides to let your opponent to drag you down and you try to be on top, what throw can you apply?

When 2 bodies tangled together, unless you can separate both bodies, no throw can be applied at that moment.

LaRoux

01-02-2013, 04:17 PM

That counter is almost like "pull guard" or "jump guard". Besides to let your opponent to drag you down and you try to be on top, what throw can you apply?

When 2 bodies tangled together, unless you can separate both bodies, no throw can be applied at that moment.

Of course you can throw him, you can slam him right back on his back as when he is committed to the wrap and is hanging back. Your hips are going to land right on his chest which will not be very good for him.

The move he is doing would probably get him a broken sternum if he gets dumped hard enough.

The problem with the guy doing the original throw in that video is that he doesn't understand that throwing when someone is resisting is not about doing the original throw, but rather about setting up different throws from the original attempt. The guy doing the throw keeps trying to do the same throw, which is usually the mark of a novice.