more on the state of kung fu in china [Archive]

wiz cool c

11-25-2012, 08:09 PM

so before i mentioned i am doing shaolin now in shenzhen. my teacher lived in the shaolin temple for 7 years. the school also teaches ,qi gong, tai chi,and sanda all different teachers. now although i really like the class and think it is great,there is no contact training what so ever. if you want to do any type of partner drills or sparing you have to go to sanda.

now my gf started to to tae kwon do a month ago. it is pretty popular here. and the other day she went to a competition with the school to watch. they have 4 year old white belts competing in comp,fighting. and kung fu does so much as let you work an application on a partner.

i remember last time i started this discussion,some of mentioned i am not fortune cookie enough for my chinese teacher to teach me. i am just a rude ignorant foreign for asking to learn an application from a form. sorry for my french but that is pure bull ****. the chinese government has all but destroyed kung fu in china.

and as for those who have gone to china on a two week trip,and learn applications. yeah some teachers have adapted to teaching foreigners that pay them a **** load of money and get whatever they want. my teacher doesn't teach that way cause he teaches to all chinese,except me. and the chinese people have been "taught" to think in this non violent way. i guess the korean said **** that we will teach fighting and it worked.

YouKnowWho

11-25-2012, 08:31 PM

If you don't learn partner drills on day one, leave that school.

wiz cool c

11-25-2012, 08:48 PM

there are several things i like about this school though. they have a systematic approach to teaching shaolin. i have had some haphazard teachers here. the teacher is a cool guy and a good teacher. and they do explain the applications to some extent,but we basically do them shadow boxing. and i am somewhat still recovering from serious knee surgery so i can't do much contact now,in the form of shuai jiao anyway. so it is ok for me. but in the future i want to be able to do these techniques with training partner. and plan to run a school in the future and don't want to teach in this way.

i guess the teacher is somewhat adapting to teaching waiguo ren cause he did agree to teach me the applications in private lessons, which i have to pay extra for haha

RenDaHai

11-26-2012, 04:57 AM

if you want to do any type of partner drills or sparing you have to go to sanda.
.

Several things buddy;

Don't generalise to 'the whole of china'. Everyone is willing to believe your class sucks, but not every class in china. Though I do agree to some extent, the 'great leap foreward' and the 'culteral revolution' destroyed a lot of Kung Fu. Gong Fu you Tuo jie le.

Anyway you train anywhere you will mostly be limited to Sanda like rules for sparring. Once you put on gloves and use a sensible set of rules then Sanda becomes about the best way to spar. The alternative is to wear face masks and go ungloved but few people do that. I prefer it sometimes because you can use elbows and headbutts.

Go to the sanda class and you'll get the pad hitting and wrestling and sparring your looking for. Go to your girlfriends Taekwondo class and try it. It won't do anything the Sanda class doesn't.

What your missing is partner drills of more complex technique right? Parrying, Qin Na, push hands, striking with palms etc. Well, look for somewhere lese that does it. If you can't find anywhere that does this, then it is easy to isolate the technique you have been taught and practice it with an agreeable friend. It is far better to train as you are than despair and do nothing. If you want to weaponise a technique you have to come up with extreme ways to train it anyway.

Most importantly: Don't train something then complain about it secretly. If you don't like it, don't train it. IF you enjoy it then accept it. If you enjoy it but think it could be better then make that better bit for yourself.

wiz cool c

11-26-2012, 05:23 AM

Several things buddy;

Don't generalise to 'the whole of china'. Everyone is willing to believe your class sucks, but not every class in china. Though I do agree to some extent, the 'great leap foreward' and the 'culteral revolution' destroyed a lot of Kung Fu. Gong Fu you Tuo jie le.

Anyway you train anywhere you will mostly be limited to Sanda like rules for sparring. Once you put on gloves and use a sensible set of rules then Sanda becomes about the best way to spar. The alternative is to wear face masks and go ungloved but few people do that. I prefer it sometimes because you can use elbows and headbutts.

Go to the sanda class and you'll get the pad hitting and wrestling and sparring your looking for. Go to your girlfriends Taekwondo class and try it. It won't do anything the Sanda class doesn't.

What your missing is partner drills of more complex technique right? Parrying, Qin Na, push hands, striking with palms etc. Well, look for somewhere lese that does it. If you can't find anywhere that does this, then it is easy to isolate the technique you have been taught and practice it with an agreeable friend. It is far better to train as you are than despair and do nothing. If you want to weaponise a technique you have to come up with extreme ways to train it anyway.

Most importantly: Don't train something then complain about it secretly. If you don't like it, don't train it. IF you enjoy it then accept it. If you enjoy it but think it could be better then make that better bit for yourself.

i came to china to do kung fu ,and if i want to fight i have to do tae kwon do,sanda and get my own partners to practice with, good advice. by the way i have been in china for 6 years,3 in bejing and 3 in shenzhen, i have done baguazhang ,shuai jiao,hung chuan,and now shaolin. the only school that spared was shuai jiao

RenDaHai

11-26-2012, 06:05 AM

i came to china to do kung fu ,and if i want to fight i have to do tae kwon do,sanda and get my own partners to practice with, good advice. by the way i have been in china for 6 years,3 in bejing and 3 in shenzhen, i have done baguazhang ,shuai jiao,hung chuan,and now shaolin. the only school that spared was shuai jiao

What about the Sanda?
You are welcome to take your KungFu techniques to the Sanda class. But once you put on those gloves and play by those rules, it is generally best to use Sanda. The thing is anywhere you spar will tend to use similar rules to this. If you want to do very traditional sparring then you need to get inventive with gear. But few places outside China do that either. Most people just use Sanda like rules. So do the sanda class as well.

What is it exactly that would make it perfect? That you can't get from your Shaolin class and Sanda class combined? Are you looking for one step sparring kind of drills? or like Chi sao? or blocking and parrying drills? Qin Na?

pazman

11-26-2012, 06:26 PM

Forget the Shaolin forms guy.

Go to real sanda gym and make friends there. A fair amount of sanda guys that I've trained with or met had a traditional background, usually through their families. When I trained sanda in Wuhan, I learned more Shaolin through my friendships than I had when I trained with famous masters. Usually, when you have a skill to teach that is valuable to them, people will gladly teach you real gongfu.

YouKnowWho

11-26-2012, 06:37 PM

Syn7

11-26-2012, 06:48 PM

May be all you need is to find a training partner outside of your school. With a training partner, you can get feed back of your combat skill and modify it accordingly. I don't believe you can develop "any" skill without training partner.

That's what I was thinking. Get as much application theory as you can then go and try it out with a buddy who is near your level.

EarthDragon

11-26-2012, 07:00 PM

solid advice form john wang and syn7

Neeros

11-27-2012, 01:05 AM

Syn7

11-27-2012, 01:20 AM

Just use your kung fu techniques in Sanda class.

Put together a small list of combat sequences that cover attack and defense of top, middle, bottom, and side striking. Then kicking attack and defense. Then felling and throwing. Drill them over and over, adjust the sequences as necessary during sparring, and have fun training. :)

I think he said he was going to do sanda later maybe, but for now he is healing from an injury. Last thing you wanna do is get thrown around when you need to heal.

GeneChing

11-27-2012, 10:33 AM

I trained extensively at Shaolin, but also some in Jinan (Shandong) and Beijing. Every teacher I trained under showed apps and had drills. I'm sorry you're not finding what you seek, wiz cool c.

You know, if you have a good grasp of forms, you can tell those that practice combat skills from those who don't by just looking at their forms. That's part of the point of forms, a fine point that's often overlooked because it requires a trained eye. Here in the SF Bay Area, there are so many kung fu and wushu teachers. As I've said countless times here, I can't even keep track. And many aren't combat trained. They are forms competitors. But you can totally tell just by watching their form, even when that form has 'hidden' techniques as so many TCMA forms claim. You don't have to cross hands. On rare occasions, I've met a master that could actually hide their skills enough that I couldn't tell, but never the other way. The forms shows the skills. You just got to know how to look at them.

Now, I know I sit in a unique seat in the wulin; I'm painfully aware of that fact. But I did the bulk of my hardcore training in China prior to taking this job and I still found skilled teachers (skilled at combat apps, I mean, because as we've long established here, skill at forms does not necessarily translate to fighting). Today, I'm not at leisure to spend a month training in China, but I'm sure it's still there. You may need a little guanxi to get to them, but then, you need a little guanxi to get anything good in China. Again, given my position today, I have a lot of guanxi. But even back then, when I was just a struggling freelance writer, I could manage to scrounge up enough guanxi to get by.

David Jamieson

11-27-2012, 11:05 AM

You know, if you have a good grasp of forms, you can tell those that practice combat skills from those who don't by just looking at their forms. That's part of the point of forms, a fine point that's often overlooked because it requires a trained eye.

I've discovered this to be mostly true, because even the guys I've trained with that have no forms and are mma, kickboxer type guys, they can take what's in the form and understand it and criticize it or use it almost immediately from a combat perspective.

However, I've seen guys that appear to have terrible form and yet they get out there and win in a really unorthodox way. I think guys like that are more rare, but they are out there.

GeneChing

11-27-2012, 11:15 AM

A lot MMA guys can't do a form to save their lives. Forms require a different kind of grace, one that isn't necessarily combat applicable. Remember Lidell on DWTS (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55016)? :rolleyes: But that's sort of the inverse of my point. Observing a good form, you can see the apps. Observing someone with good apps, doesn't mean they can execute a good form.

TAO YIN

11-27-2012, 11:27 AM

Wiz Cool C,

Go to Foshan, Guangzhou, Huizhou, Hong Kong, etc. Seek people out. Contact Roger Hagood from SPM or go visit him. Contact Pak Mei, Chow Gar, Hung Fut, Dragon, Choy Lay Fat, Wing Chun, or whatever style works for you... I don't really know about Shenzhen, but there are lots of schools all over Guangdong that are open to whatever. What are you looking for?

Just my own opinion, but why train Shaolin where you are at? Near you are some really good Southern Style teachers. There are lots of people in Guangdong who love to play.

There are also some Shuai Jiao, Sanda, Muay Thai, Judo, Karate, Taekwondo, and BJJ schools, all around you.

Go to Tian He stadium in Guangzhou on the weekends. There are open cage fights there.

You are surrounded by all of it. You realize that don't you?:confused:

TAO YIN

11-27-2012, 12:16 PM

http://www.boonmuaythai.com/en/main.php

http://www.satirio.com/ma/about.html

http://www.fschinwoo.com/en/a1.htm

http://www.facebook.com/pages/HUNG-SING-Foshan-China/444614045559558

http://www.hkjj.com.hk/instructor_e.html

http://www.pakmei.org/index.html

http://www.hungfutpai.com/links.htm

http://chinamantis.com/index.htm

香港東江周家螳螂李天來拳術會
Various performances of master's on youtube? Check them out. People with ties to schools in China? Ask them!

Um, I am 10 thousand miles away just messing around. On a computer that won't let me put anything but pinyin in. Open your eyes man...

wiz cool c

11-27-2012, 09:26 PM

Go to Tian He stadium in Guangzhou on the weekends. There are open cage fights there.

You are surrounded by all of it. You realize that don't you?:confused:[/QUOTE]

yeah i'm not doing any open cage fighting at 42 and recovering from knee surgery,but thanks. i mentioned before that foreigners coming to china will get whatever they want cause the teachers have adapted to training them,and they pay a **** load of money. but it is alright, my teacher said they don't teach fighting at this school. but he can teach me the application in private lessons. which i have to pay extra for,but i don't mind. so that is what i will do.

the point of this topic ,is that kung fu is being taught this way. not to foreigners taking short trips here paying a **** load of cash ,but to people who are chinese and live in china.

bawang

11-28-2012, 07:57 AM

gwai lo goes learning xingyitaichibagua

4 years later

"WHERE IS REAL KUNG FU??!"

TAO YIN

11-28-2012, 11:05 AM

Wiz,

I see your point. That is not the same for every school and all Chinese people in China. But yes for sure, that is the case many times. Just not always by any means.

I recommended those ideas because that is what I thought you were looking for from having read your posts. I was mistaken.

However, there are many schools, and lots near where you are, that teach apps, two man drills, and everything partner...from day one.

For example, if you go to basically any Southern Praying Mantis school in Guangdong or Hongkong, they will teach you two man drills right after warm ups. For many styles, it just doesn't make any sense to get into a form first, and some, not all, teachers know this.

You know Baguazhang, Hong Quan, and Shaolin, all are not really known well for their partner training?

GeneChing

11-28-2012, 12:03 PM

the point of this topic ,is that kung fu is being taught this way. not to foreigners taking short trips here paying a **** load of cash ,but to people who are chinese and live in china. Who really expects to learn a lot of kung fu on a week vacation? When I was at Shaolin, we'd have tourists roll up all the time. Heck, I was there when Sin The's group (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) visited. Tourists always take their token lesson, or maybe even a few lessons, and pay exorbitant prices for it. Any local knows how to take a tourist anywhere in the world. That's not at all limited to the martial arts. But kung fu takes time. A short study trip, even a few months, only scratches the surface.

As for being Chinese, well, there's a certain advantage to having the cultural heritage. Personally, my upbringing definitely gave me a jump on those who didn't know squat about Chinese culture and made all sorts of faux pas. For example, I didn't wince at the delicacies served at special banquets. At the same time, I know plenty of non-Chinese that got much ****her than I ever did. There's is an advantage there too, as an earnest non-Chinese that gives plenty of face stands out amongst Western tourists.

daiyoshida

11-28-2012, 12:48 PM

I think Gene had been around long enough to know this but the way they teach even to the locals have changed over the years. There are enough wealthy Chinese in China today to justify "Western style" schools where American students and Chinese students are taught exactly the same way.

People teaching in the village courtyard with local "social workers" interpreting is a thing of the past. Not sure that's a good thing. I thinks things got left behind with the "Progress". Training is more accessible but it's not the same training. Am I making sense?

B.Tunks

11-28-2012, 08:48 PM

why are you still looking? go home.

wiz cool c

11-29-2012, 03:34 AM

update, i paid for the private lesson to learn the applications[150rmb per hour,very reasonable price],and had my first today. it was a great class and i feel satisfied. my only regret is the next generation won't get this. cause i asked my teacher out right about learning this stuff and pay extra for it. as i mentioned before they don't teach this stuff as part of the regular curriculum.

as for why don't i got home. cause i like living in china. it is interesting to have a class all in chinese,helps to learn about the culture which kung fu comes from. there are many other reasons as well.

xiao yao

11-29-2012, 03:53 AM

Tao Yin made some good points. there is a lot of good kung fu out there, just a case of looking for it.

LFJ

11-29-2012, 03:59 AM

my only regret is the next generation won't get this.

Not from his class, but... so what? There are many other Shaolin teachers in the world who do teach more than just a dance.

wiz cool c

11-29-2012, 04:32 AM

i am just saying in china they tend to do things one way and one way only ,and this is the state of kung fu. if there are other schools out there teaching traditional fighting still it is most likely cause they are teaching foreigners coming from abroad to learn and paying a lot for it. as i said before i have been living here for 6 years ,i have seen a lot of teachers. some do a little application occasionally.most do none. and very few if any do any sparring.[not including sanda or shuai jiao]

LFJ

11-29-2012, 04:46 AM

Are you only looking at commercial schools?

xinyidizi

11-29-2012, 05:08 AM

Good Kungfu is in 民间. There are some good instructors even in schools but people who want to learn traditional Kungfu seriously don't usually go to schools.

wiz cool c

11-29-2012, 06:27 AM

please guys save the bull****,i have trained in all kind of places. actually this is the first school i have trained in.well the shuai jiao school in beijing was a school but for live in full time students that trained 6 days a week 4 hours a day.and out in the village in an army buncker. by the way they sparred and competed and all that.

bawang

11-29-2012, 06:39 AM

[150rmb per hour,

mooooooooooo

moooooooooooooo

TAO YIN

11-29-2012, 07:53 AM

Wiz,

In your 3 years in Guangdong, have you checked out any of the schools (commercial or not) in Foshan, Nanhai district? There are at least 6 or 7 different styles and 15 to 20 different schools there. Hong Kong, Guangzhou? There are so many! I lived in China for 5 years and Guangdong for 2 (I'm guessing this year thing matters?), learned what I wanted until I had too much, and never paid that much.

Foreigners are going to be charged more for applications, or whatever they want to study, or for basically anything, whether they are tourists or living there. They make and have more money for the most part. No different in China than going to Thailand to train, fight, or watch. They even have a line for foreigners wanting to watch fights at Lumpinee stadium...

You pay more rent than most Chinese people do as well...

This idea that Chinese people are not being shown applications, I can see it, that is for those students who want to learn techniques and their teachers saying, "just do Sanda or Shuai Jiao." But that just isn't the case for all. I wouldn't even say that it is for most.

It is usually like that for the arts you have mentioned studying though. Funny that I guess.

Of course, if you have been studying anything for 6 years, and you cannot find the applications yourself, or can but just don't want to, and want to pay someone 150 rmb just to see their applications...you might want to reconsider what it is that you are doing. That is unless you just want to see things how they see them? There are only so many ways that the body can move though, right?

pazman

11-29-2012, 10:57 AM

I don't see the big deal of paying more than Chinese in China. I give private lessons and routinely charge my Chinese students double the typical amount. It all evens out.:p

GeneChing

11-29-2012, 11:50 AM

150rmb per hour,very reasonable price That's only $23.84 USD for an hour private. You couldn't touch that here in the states. Most private lessons starts at 3x that here.

B.Tunks

11-29-2012, 03:28 PM

It sounds like you have received exactly what you have asked for.

bawang

11-29-2012, 03:29 PM

That's only $23.84 USD for an hour private. You couldn't touch that here in the states. Most private lessons starts at 3x that here.

thats a weeks wage for a farmer. even after economy boom still like 3 days wage

It sounds like you have received exactly what you have asked for.

getting charged wads of cash to learn special stuff no other student learns

roffles

B.Tunks

11-29-2012, 04:01 PM

thats a weeks wage for a farmer. even after economy boom still like 3 days wage

getting charged wads of cash to learn special stuff no other student learns

roffles

everyone wins.

omarthefish

11-29-2012, 04:36 PM

mooooooooooo

http://www.jgi.doe.gov/News/cow-rumen-jonas.jpg

moooooooooooooo

moooooooooooooo?

xinyidizi

11-29-2012, 05:54 PM

thats a weeks wage for a farmer. even after economy boom still like 3 days wage

getting charged wads of cash to learn special stuff no other student learns

roffles

He lives in Shenzhen not a village! I don't know when you left China but now even an average Ayi can make 3000~5000 RMB a month just to make ends meet.

As for other kinds of private classes in the expensive Chinese cities it costs 200~300 for a Chinese student to learn math from a good teacher or learn English from an average native speaker(professional teacher). It costs 100~200RMB to learn Mandarin from a good teacher. 100 for low level piano teachers, ...

A good MA teacher needs to work on his skills way harder than these people so 100~150 is not really too much for this kind of market in expensive Chinese cities.

Kellen Bassette

11-29-2012, 07:36 PM

Wiz,

No different in China than going to Thailand to train, fight, or watch. They even have a line for foreigners wanting to watch fights at Lumpinee stadium...

First thing I learned in China was never pay more than a third of whatever they quote you and your still getting ripped off...(merchandise not Kung Fu)....

My favorite part about Thailand is the two prices posted on their National Parks, the low price written in Thai...and the farang rate in English....

bawang

11-29-2012, 08:25 PM

A good MA teacher needs to work on his skills way harder than these people so 100~150 is not really too much for this kind of market in expensive Chinese cities.

looking for real kung fu in expensive chinese cities

lolz

wiz cool c

11-29-2012, 11:30 PM

i make 10,000 a month working part time. 150 is nothing for a private lesson with a shaolin monk. you guys are jealous and ignorant nothing more, keep hating i like the attention.

JamesC

11-29-2012, 11:39 PM

Jealous of your non-application Kung fu? You bet.

wiz cool c

11-29-2012, 11:56 PM

no i got the application, now you guys were hating about the price remember

xiao yao

11-30-2012, 12:54 AM

we noticed you "like the attention"

you come on here asking for advice or complaining or whatever, but when people give you suggestions, you say they are hating.

bawang

11-30-2012, 08:08 AM

i make 10,000 a month working part time. 150 is nothing for a private lesson with a shaolin monk. you guys are jealous and ignorant nothing more, keep hating i like the attention.

this is why you will never receive real kung fu.

wiz cool c

12-04-2012, 01:22 AM

i am not asking for advice, i am trying to inform you about something you know nothing about. and even though you are clueless about it you still want to put your two cents in. that is the dictionary definition of foolishness. you guys have no idea about the economy or the state of kung fu here,in china,yet you want to give advice.

and as for real kung fu. it is statements like these that make 90% of the martial art community think kung fu is a complete joke. i like to see anyone go into a boxing gym,wrestling school,judo club or bbj school,and say you are not learning real boxing,or judo ect haha. I trained three years with the best shuai jiao coaches in the world with professional guys that live at the school and train 6 days a week and 4 hours a day. how is that for real kung fu haha.

I have a funny story about"real kung fu". back when i was in beijing training at the shuai jiao school there was a european guy that came to train a month there.i was the only foreign guy training at that school by the way and they knew by my chinese name only hu ke. so the first day i see him doing some laps,and i feel a little nervous cause i know they will match us up for a match at the end of class for their viewing amusement. so i ask him when i get a chance. have you done any shuai jiao or judo before. he answer no but[in a proud voice] i have do northern kung fu[don't remember the style] and we have throws in our style."real kung fu" . after i hear this i relax and aren't nervous about sparring him at the end of class anymore.

so the time comes and sure enough they match us up and sit around to watch and cheer. so he was about 4 inches taller then me and 5 or 6 years younger at least. well i threw him 4 times to o. by the way he didn't last 1 week at that school. guess it wasn't "real "enough for him.

YouKnowWho

12-04-2012, 01:34 AM

I can quite understand your experience. When a praying mantis teacher in China asked me how long I could keep my students with only 3 praying mantis forms, I lose respect to that person right at that moment.

That's an interest story. When you throw someone to the east, he won't dare to fall to the west (only SC guys may understand this joke), you will smile in your dream for many nights.

LFJ

12-04-2012, 01:54 AM

@wiz cool c

What made me think you're only looking at commercial schools is that you said if there are "still traditional schools teaching applications in China then it's likely because they take foreign students coming from abroad to learn it and pay a lot for it".

This sort of comment sounds like its coming from someone who's experience is only with large commercial schools, or someone who just doesn't know how to look or connect with people in China. I've had plenty of experience with teachers here who have opened up about applications for little or even no fee to me.

YouKnowWho

12-04-2012, 02:10 AM

Here is a question for wiz cool c, Have you seen or heard anybody train SC form like this in China?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtrprsJdsQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEocDhZ9x8I

wiz cool c

12-04-2012, 02:42 AM

haha i don't know about all that but here is my tacher and the school i trained at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYZ0TWSmDEg&list=UUGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA&index=17&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcQcj40KkNI&feature=BFa&list=UUGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA

ginosifu

12-04-2012, 05:14 AM

Here is a question for wiz cool c, Have you seen or heard anybody train SC form like this in China?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtrprsJdsQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEocDhZ9x8I

Yes, I know these forms. They come from David Chang from Taiwan. They are called Jau Chuan (sorry for spelling) I don't have the characters.

ginosifu

EarthDragon

12-04-2012, 09:57 AM

YKW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtrprsJdsQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEocDhZ9x8I

wowsy those are really bad LOL. are people actually training this way? pehaps I ned to get out more. My gosh thats horrible.

TAO YIN

12-04-2012, 12:10 PM

Wiz,

Have you checked out any of the schools in Foshan or Guangzhou? Do you go to Hong Kong and train often?

I am not understanding all of this logic. You trained Shuai Jiao with the best of the best kill or be killers in Beijing, but there is no kung fu in China? First few questions first please...

wiz cool c

12-04-2012, 07:09 PM

LFJ

12-04-2012, 07:23 PM

i said this already

11-29-2012, 11:32 AM
wiz cool c
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 785

i am just saying in china they tend to do things one way and one way only ,and this is the state of kung fu. if there are other schools out there teaching traditional fighting still it is most likely cause they are teaching foreigners coming from abroad to learn and paying a lot for it. as i said before i have been living here for 6 years ,i have seen a lot of teachers. some do a little application occasionally.most do none. and very few if any do any sparring.[not including sanda or shuai jiao]

And my response to that was:

"This sort of comment sounds like its coming from someone who's experience is only with large commercial schools, or someone who just doesn't know how to look or connect with people in China. I've had plenty of experience with teachers here who have opened up about applications for little or even no fee to me."

It sounds to me like you don't know how to get around and find things in China or have a problem connecting with people. It's easy to at least avoid the type of thing you seem to keep running into. But you then overgeneralize "the state of kung fu" based on your own mistakes.

wiz cool c

12-04-2012, 08:05 PM

i was answering ta yin not you

LFJ

12-04-2012, 09:05 PM

You actually haven't answered his question at all, and you're ignoring others' observations. I think you just feel bad about your experience and want to troll on "the state of kung fu in China" and ignore any observation that might counter your experience and any suggestion that might lead you somewhere to learn what you're saying is not here.

But you're happy paying extra to learn what you should be learning in class anyway from someone who probably made up his own hypothetical apps just like you could. I don't know what you're on about with these threads, but it's the fruit of your own mistakes and voluntary ignorance, not "the state of kung fu in China".

B.Tunks

12-04-2012, 10:30 PM

wiz cool c

12-04-2012, 11:30 PM

ok you guys just keep living in you kung movie fantasy world, just telling you how it is in the real world here in china, from a guy who has been living here almost 7 years.

xiao yao

12-05-2012, 01:38 AM

you say this like youre the only guy on this forum whos lived in china

LFJ

12-05-2012, 03:10 AM

ok you guys just keep living in you kung movie fantasy world, just telling you how it is in the real world here in china, from a guy who has been living here almost 7 years.

You're not the only one living in China, and your 7 years here means nothing and is not impressing anyone, since it is obvious that although you've lived here for that time you haven't accomplished a whole lot insofar as finding kung fu, which isn't for a lack of it but a mistake or inability in your search apparently.

Oddly though, you seem uninterested in having your opinion changed and just want to tell people "how it is in the real world". But if the real world in China is poppin' n lockin' in your apartment, then yeah I imagine there's probably not a lot of kung fu happening around there...

B.Tunks

12-05-2012, 03:38 AM

7 years and look how far you've come. Awesome.

wiz cool c

12-05-2012, 07:43 AM

Oddly though, you seem uninterested in having your opinion changed and just want to tell people "how it is in the real world". But if the real world in China is poppin' n lockin' in your apartment, then yeah I imagine there's probably not a lot of kung fu happening around there...[/QUOTE]

ut don't forget my recent tv commercial. i posted that here too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za_NGWT3Etc&list=UUGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA&index=2&feature=plcp

TAO YIN

12-05-2012, 07:54 AM

Wiz,:D

It seems that you are just wanting attention. Here is some more for you.

For the 5th time I guess, have you visited Foshan, King Mui Village, Pingshan, anywhere in Guangdong besides Shenzhen... Huizhou, Guangzhou...HONG KONG? Do I need to list places in other provinces? Do you have any idea how many Kung Fu schools, and TCM clinics connected to Kung Fu schools, operate in Hong Kong? You can actually go to any Business Bureau in Hong Kong and ask for a list of regulated schools. It is public information. Do you ever go to Kung Fu corner on the weekends? You are like an hour and a half away from there...
If your Chinese is bad, have you visited any of the foreigners who are actually teaching near you...Roger Hagood, Mark Houghton, Keith King...Need more? This is only near where you are mind you. Have you researched any of the styles well known in Guangdong?

Again, you have studied, as you have stated, Hong Quan, Bagua, and Xingyi...And these have historically been known (especially in the first year of study) as having lots of partner work??? Then we flip that to Shuai Jiao and Sanda, which are both mainly partner work??? What gives? Have you researched any other styles, specifically styles well known in the places that you have been living? In Beijing, why didn't you look for any Yiquan or Ziranmen schools? Both schools do very well in Beijing Sanda competitions, even Shuai Jiao competitions. Did you ever train at the BJJ school in Beijing? hehe!

No Kung Fu Movie fantasy worlds here, and all personal attacks (as you seem to like) aside... You are not going to convince me of anything about real world China. I am not trying to impress anyone as you clearly are here with your 7 year itch statements and commerical trailers. I know the language, trained all over China, was there most of last year, worked there way too many, have been to Potola Palace and Base Camp before backpacking drunk and half broke throughout the rest of the country just to see if Wu Tai Shan was better... Have visited frequently, am married to a Dengfenger... And I have way too many friends living there and training, family members living there and training, and the like.

You are basically saying that this is your 6th year there, that you don't know where to find real Kung Fu, and that you are making 10,500 RMB while living in one of the most expensive cities in China... AND nonetheless training Henan Shaolin in Guangdong, for 150 RMB privates on top of whatever you are paying for regular tuition? Henan Shaolin in Guangdong? I mean, HENAN SHAOLIN IN GUANGDONG???

How are you going to convince anyone of anything? :D

Cheers,

TAO

omarthefish

12-05-2012, 08:18 AM

Other than the fact that studying Henan Shaolin is kind of wierd, Wiz is right on point for the most part.

Are you actually reading or just scimming the thead, Tao Yin?

For example:

Do you have any idea how many Kung Fu schools, and TCM clinics connected to Kung Fu schools, operate in Hong Kong?

He's not in Hong Kong. While HK is legally part of China, for all practical intents and purposes, it is another country. Even since the reunification, Chinese nationals still need special entry/exit permits which are applied for in a process pretty similar to asking for a Visa and as an American, while I don't need a Visa to enter HK, the mainland considers a trip to HK "leaving the country". Unless you have a multiple entry Visa, a weekend trip from Guangdong to HK means you will need to re-apply for a Visa to "China".

Again, you have studied, as you have stated, Hong Quan, Bagua, and Xingyi...And these have historically been known (especially in the first year of study) as having lots of partner work???

Well that would be great then if he was training back somewhere in Chinese ancient history but in the actual present day, yeah, it's pretty much like he said for all of those. I live in Shaanxi which is pretty much the birthplace of Hong Quan. Hong Quan (小红拳) is far and away the most popular style in Xi'an. Xingyi is common, bagua...not quite as much. Almost nobody in the entire city teaches any differently than what Wiz described, certainly not in the first year.

Then we flip that to Shuai Jiao and Sanda, which are both mainly partner work???
Apparently, since you were just scimming the thread, you missed the parts where he talked about all the intense sparring and competition that was there right from the start in the Shuai Jiao training he did. You also seem to have not read the parts where he talked about how if you want to spar at a kung fu school in China, you pretty much just have to do the Sanda program but there's no real overlap between the traditional training and the Sanda. This has been my experience as well.

FWIW, I'm going on about 13 years in Xi'an so far. If you take out the couple trips home maybe only about 9 or 10 years of time spend on the ground. Fully fluent in Chinese and formal lineage holder in a traditional style. So I found what I was looking for. A couple of anecdotes about people keeping it real do not change the fact that Wiz is describing, really very accurately, what really is the general state of kung fu in China. ;)

wiz cool c

12-05-2012, 08:24 AM

o i'm not reading all that ****,i got a life

TAO YIN

12-05-2012, 09:10 AM

Omar,

I realize that this is apparent in some schools. Most who don't want to lose face, wan't to keep student enrollments high with easiness, and etc... It is going on more so with Xingyi, Taichi, and Bagua schools than it is with Chow Gar Tong Long schools in Guangdong...

- If he has been living in China for the last six years and doesn't have enough sense to get a multiple-entry visa. Do I need to go on with this statement? He is not Chinese. When I lived in Guangzhou, I went to Honkers any weekend I wanted to.

- Maybe I didn't make myself clear there. Hong Quan is not well known for two man anything, Bagua is not well known for two man anything, and Xingyi is not well known for two many anything. None of them ever have been. Yet he studied those arts, while looking for two man anything...

- Different areas of China and different styles have different ways. But not all are as described. Look at styles curriculums before jumping in to them. Realize that Sanda is practical sparring anyways. Etc! You know?

Wiz,

If you can't read, and can't take criticism on your own topic no less, why expect us to?

bawang

12-05-2012, 09:52 AM

most hardcore kung fu clubs that have even some remote emphasis on fighting not only dont teach foreigners, they dont even teach city chinese. if you talk chinese in a lisp, they dont teach you. if you dye your hair, keep long hair, they dont teach you. if you wear fancy clothes, they dont teach you. if you try to pull that city attitude, they will KILL you.

the sports and cultural association in my hometown is directly descended from the boxing rebellion. you really think they would teach you?

are they amazing fighters? NO. they are average. but they just dont teach outsiders. kung fu is not universal. other than mainstream taijixingyibaguashaolin, people arent out there pimping their lineage.

so some of the reasons are

-ultranationalism
-racism
-revolutionary theology (where racism and nationalism is part of folk religion)

- all the shifus know the typical foreigner is gonna learn for 3 months, go back and start teaching.

- . lots of western students that go to china are MENTALLY DISTURBED. have that weird empty, dazed look. even the most hardcore shifu is creeped out. ALWAYS try to be the special student and start looking down on the chinese students that been training there since childhood. asking to "light spar", then go all out and sucker punch people.

-western students masterbate all the time and the dormitories smell like semen.

xinyidizi

12-05-2012, 10:07 AM

the sports and cultural association in my hometown is directly descended from the boxing rebellion. you really think they would teach you?

challenge accepted, where are you from? :D

bawang

12-05-2012, 10:08 AM

challenge accepted, where are you from? :D

funing, the birthplace of gu ruzhang, founder of bak sil lum.

xinyidizi

12-05-2012, 10:36 AM

sanjuro_ronin

12-05-2012, 11:01 AM

Faruq

12-05-2012, 11:45 AM

bawang

12-05-2012, 11:50 AM

Scheisse, Bawang! You could've made this the 2nd post on this thread and saved us 5 pages of nonsense. What's wrong wit you, bro? You slippin', baby.

because its common sense, i thought you guys can figure out easily.

awkward westerner with figure of virgin girl goes to china looking to train kung fu under people who vow every morning to destroy white people. what can go wrong?

YouKnowWho

12-05-2012, 11:56 AM

Someone made the following statement about his Taiji training. If you try to train TCMA in China, those solo form training will take all your time. I may have spent more "solo form" training time than most people have in this forum. If I'll live my live all over again, I'll take a different route.

A guy who may spend more "solo form" training time than me went to his 1st tournament. He was knocked down within 8 seconds. That was his 1st tournament. It was also his last tournament.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A friend of mine told me that it takes at least 3 years of yilu before the student is ready for learning erlu and that it takes at least 2 more years before the student is ready for push hands.

bawang

12-05-2012, 12:03 PM

Someone made the following statement about his Taiji training. If you try to train TCMA in China, those solo form training will take all your time. I may have spent more "solo form" training time than most people have in this forum. If I'll live my live all over again, I'll take different path.

1. you did not have enough spirit.

when i was 13 and 2 months into training, i asked my teacher. "if i train forms for years, how can i kill enemies of china"? after that i never took forms seriously.

2. you did not have enough intelligence

when i was 15, i would spar with my friends who did boxing and indian wrestling and try to use kung fu techniques. i was immediately beat up, and i instantly realized what is realistic and what is not.

3. you did not have love.

when i was 15 with my teacher, he said "if i teach you to fight, i smash my rice bowl. im not your sifu, im your brother. dont do too much forms". i was never milked.

sanjuro_ronin

12-05-2012, 12:06 PM

when i was 15, i would spar with my friends who did boxing and indian wrestling and try to use kung fu techniques. i was immediately beat up, and i instantly realized what is realistic and what is not.

You make a very valid point here.
If you take a sampling of guys that have been doing TCMA for 1 year and those that have done boxing or MT or MMA or wrestling and they fought and IF the TCMA guys get beat up, what is wrong?

bawang

12-05-2012, 12:08 PM

You make a very valid point here.
If you take a sampling of guys that have been doing TCMA for 1 year and those that have done boxing or MT or MMA or wrestling and they fought and IF the TCMA guys get beat up, what is wrong?

the difference is i immediately stopped trying to apply the technique, while there are many out there that keep trying and trying , keep "modifying" and "researching"

also, i didnt train kung fu to feel good. i wanted to beat up my school bully. i was driven by hate and rage. it made me see things clearer. the idea of doing forms for years was rediculous to me.

Lebaufist

12-05-2012, 12:17 PM

bawang

12-05-2012, 12:21 PM

This either/or situation is relatively modern. As late as the late 80' the schools I knew of fought with regularity WHILE learning everything else. There wasn't this artificial separation between activities.

but you said you "play" with your guan dao. and when i said i just stab and beat a car tire with a stick 100 times, you made fun of me.

Lebaufist

12-05-2012, 12:24 PM

I made fun of you because you don't understand the word "play". And you basically revealed you have absolutely NO experiences with the weapon. And I think you're full of it. This subject has nothing to do with the other. My Unicorn also belches cotton candy.

Sparring barehanded, however, isn't something I need to go back in time for to practice.

YouKnowWho

12-05-2012, 12:26 PM

the difference is i immediately stopped trying to apply the technique, while there are many out there that keep trying and trying , keep "modifying" and "researching".
There are some truth there. Even today, I still try to "modify" this "3 rings catch the moon", and try to use it in sparring without much luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G6jLx0tIzI

When my brother in law asked me to go into the woods, swing my sword, and chop down 1000 tree branches, I knew right away that he tried to teach me the true "combat".

Lebaufist

12-05-2012, 12:30 PM

Maybe being literal to every move verbatim is a mistake. Maybe it wasn't meant to be done in succession, but placed as such in the routine to practice it in repetition on each side. Parry and strike when needed, not by prescription.

Lebaufist

12-05-2012, 12:38 PM

I don't think about my form in the abstract of a fight. It "happens", In response to my opponents choices and the choices I make in initiation. It "fits" where it "fits". Forms, of any kind, serve as a basis for the construct. The building blocks if you will. I can never use a hammer if I don't know what a hammer looks like or what its used for. I don't have to think about how to use a hammer after the instruction. Its then become an abstract of skill.

Faruq

12-05-2012, 12:38 PM

because its common sense, i thought you guys can figure out easily.

awkward westerner with figure of virgin girl goes to china looking to train kung fu under people who vow every morning to destroy hak gwai. what can go wrong?

Darn! I was planning to quit my job at the end of next year and move to Hong Kong to study Bak Mei! No, just having a little fun. Hey, but you were referring to Westerners in general, not just White People right? It's not like you see an abundance of Black Americans training in China...

Lebaufist

12-05-2012, 12:41 PM

When my brother in law asked me to go into the woods, swing my sword, and chop down 1000 tree branches, I knew right away that he tried to teach me the true "combat".He was giving you the closest thing you are going to get as far as cleaving something with a blade. I'm sure you did way better when you actually learned how to swing it properly. I know I did. Hacking clumsily at a tree is the hard way to learn. Or did you learn some basics first?

YouKnowWho

12-05-2012, 12:42 PM

If you go to the woods and use your

- upper arm to break 1000 tree branches, when you garb on your opponent's wrist, you can break his elbow.
- palm heel to push and break 1000 tree branches, when you use your palm heel to push on your opponent's thumb, you can break his thumb.
- sword to shop down 1000 tree branches, when you swing your sword, you can cut your enemy's body in half.
- ...

Can you find any TCMA teacher in China who will tell you to go to the woods and ...?

bawang

12-05-2012, 12:42 PM

Darn! I was planning to quit my job at the end of next year and move to Hong Kong to study Bak Mei! No, just having a little fun. Hey, but you were referring to Westerners in general, not just White People right? It's not like you see an abundance of Black Americans training in China...

southern china is usually pro westerner, they had a lot of missionaries there.

why you going to hong kong though? why dont you learn in the countryside?

I made fun of you because you don't understand the word "play". And you basically revealed you have absolutely NO experiences with the weapon. And I think you're full of it. This subject has nothing to do with the other. My Unicorn also belches cotton candy.

i do traditional fundamental training and i have no experience. you flail around spinning that guan dao like a rave stick and you have experience. ok.

YouKnowWho

12-05-2012, 12:59 PM

He was giving you the closest thing you are going to get as far as cleaving something with a blade. I'm sure you did way better when you actually learned how to swing it properly. I know I did. Hacking clumsily at a tree is the hard way to learn. Or did you learn some basics first?
To swing sword properly (train form) and to chop down tree branches (sparring) should be done at the same time. Unfortunately most TCMA teachers only teach you one but not the other.

YouKnowWho

12-05-2012, 01:07 PM

i am trying to inform you ...

After you get used to the SC training method (develop one technique after another with "partner"), you will never be pleased with the solo form training. Most TCMA teachers will teach you form after form. It's very difficult for you to go back. Others may not understand your situation but I can quite understand that.

bawang

12-05-2012, 01:15 PM

There are some truth there. Even today, I still try to "modify" this "3 rings catch the moon", and try to use it in sparring without much luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G6jLx0tIzI

thats just a triple haymaker. use it when your opponent turtles up. two to the left, he shifts left, third one to the right. when he counters, you turtle up.

Hey, but you were referring to Westerners in general, not just White People right? It's not like you see an abundance of Black Americans training in China...

the choclate peoples are our friends. we are big fannies of doctor khalid muhammad.

Faruq

12-05-2012, 01:49 PM

southern china is usually pro westerner, they had a lot of missionaries there.

why you going to hong kong though? why dont you learn in the countryside?

Hong Kong Bak Mei is prettier. So if I can kick butt and look good at the same time, Baw, you know I'm gonna take that option.

Faruq

12-05-2012, 01:53 PM

the choclate peoples are our friends. we are big fannies of doctor khalid muhammad.

I'm sorry, I'm not acquainted with the good doctor I am ashamed to admit. I am pleasantly surprised to learn that we are welcomed in China. I'll shoot a quick e-mail out to everyone on the Operation Push, NAACP and NOI mailing lists immediately so we can take your kind people up on their hospitality and repatriate! Thanks, Baweezy!

omarthefish

12-05-2012, 03:05 PM

Omar,
... It is going on more so with Xingyi, Taichi, and Bagua schools than it is with Chow Gar Tong Long schools in Guangdong...
[quote]

Sorry. I didn't catch that "???" was for sarcasm.

[QUOTE]...He is not Chinese. When I lived in Guangzhou, I went to Honkers any weekend I wanted to.
I don't think even 10,000/month is enough money to live like that. It's pretty darn good for the mainlang but still pretty **** poor for HK. Only about $1600/month US. Hardly enough to be making regular trips out of town just for kung fu classes.

Wiz,

If you can't read, and can't take criticism on your own topic no less, why expect us to?

Meh. I think it's just funny how much denial there is on the thread of how things really are out here. Sure, there's exceptions but not many. Even, for example with the training I did find, it would fall into the same category really. Shifu teaches fighting and applications and all that but you really need to show him your in for the long haul before he shows you much of that. There's no way someone like Wiz would lean much more than forms from him. By "someone like Wiz" I mean, somebody who is sort of "shopping" for kung fu. He's not selling his goods for tuition. He wants to see someone who's going to possibly continue his lineage and treat this stuff like a national treasure. Kung Fu tourists need not apply.

B.Tunks

12-05-2012, 03:23 PM

Meh. I think it's just funny how much denial there is on the thread of how things really are out here. Sure, there's exceptions but not many. Even, for example with the training I did find, it would fall into the same category really. Shifu teaches fighting and applications and all that but you really need to show him your in for the long haul before he shows you much of that. There's no way someone like Wiz would lean much more than forms from him. By "someone like Wiz" I mean, somebody who is sort of "shopping" for kung fu. He's not selling his goods for tuition. He wants to see someone who's going to possibly continue his lineage and treat this stuff like a national treasure. Kung Fu tourists need not apply.

Of course - 'everything in China sux, apart from my experience'

omarthefish

12-05-2012, 03:36 PM

No...actually...an awful lot of my experience sucks too.

I am living out my fantasy but that doesn't mean there's no downside. There's no need to be a Pollyanna about life in China. It's a statistical fact that the vast majority of westerns who come to China are not able to adjust to it on any kind of a long term basis. I spent my first year in China at a foreign language university and I'd say roughly 80% of all the westerners there had had there dreams/fantasies about life in China thoroughly smashed by the end of the first semester. Most were dissapointed and tired and really homesick.

They weren't there for kung fu. They were there for the language and for some idea they had about the culture. I really do tend to think the main reason it worked out so well for me was just that I didn't really any positive expectations at all. I didn't even plan or expect to learn kung fu here. I felt that I could probably find much better training back home (lived in San Francisco). I just wanted to polish up my language skills and then move on to HK. I stayed on the mainland mainly just because it was cheap and because I was a Chinese major and HK'ers don't (didn't at the time anyways) really speak much actual Chinese. They all speak(spoke? It seems to have changed a bit) Cantonese and English. Also, couldn't figure out what I'd do for work in HK.

I feel I got very very lucky finding the training I did and, honestly, it took about a year to find it and another 6 months of being tested before I was taught really seriously.

China is just not for everyone. Better that people travel here with their eyes wide open.

Faruq

12-05-2012, 04:40 PM

bawang

12-05-2012, 05:12 PM

How does an American go about finding work on the mainland (the warm South, not the cold North, lol)?

teach english

needs 0 qualifications

taai gihk yahn

12-05-2012, 05:34 PM

-western students masterbate all the time and the dormitories smell like semen.
it is our way of ensuring that your haggard and lank yellow seed will be made even more impotent by the scent of our genetic superiority...

omarthefish

12-05-2012, 06:00 PM

teach english

needs 0 qualifications
Not anymore.

That was the case when I came here back in '99 but somewhere around '06 or so (I forget which year exactly) the government started cracking down on unqualified Engrish teachers. You can still just show up with a tourist visa and work illegally for a training center or as a tutor but if you plan to possibly stay long term, especially in a single city, I wouldn't reccommend it. You can get caught, deported and banned from ever entering China again. It's not common and that's why I think if you are happy to just hop around from city to city it's probably no big deal. Get caught and just hop a plane to Thailand for the weekend and then come back but in some other city where immigration doesn't know you.

My personal experience has been that immigration has come to my home twice over the years and just recently they even showed up unnannounced at my job to check my papers and interview me to see if they could catch me talking about teaching anywhere else in my free time (which would also be illegal and grounds for deportation)

So teaching illegally is a roll of the dice. Current law requires a BA at the very minumum...from an English speaking country.... and it's very hard to get a proper Z Visa nowadays without some sort of TESOL cert on top of that...even if it's just some dumb online course. Oh yeah, and they also now require a police check from your home country stating you have no criminal record. Kind of a dumb rule though since local police stations in America only have local records. . . at the least that's how it was when I got mine.

wiz cool c

12-05-2012, 06:00 PM

yawn,o sorry did you say something

omarthefish

12-05-2012, 06:04 PM

Nothing to see here....move along....

pazman

12-05-2012, 06:39 PM

I'm sorry, I'm not acquainted with the good doctor I am ashamed to admit. I am pleasantly surprised to learn that we are welcomed in China. I'll shoot a quick e-mail out to everyone on the Operation Push, NAACP and NOI mailing lists immediately so we can take your kind people up on their hospitality and repatriate! Thanks, Baweezy!

Sweet Jesus, that's like throwing ice into a deep fat fryer.

Faruq, if you are interested in living and working in China, you have a couple of different options.

Teaching English is certainly a popular choice, and only requires a 4-year university degree from an English-speaking country. Getting an online TESOL certificate may increase your chances and pay. If you want a lot of time for training and traveling, I recommend working at a university, as your teaching load is much, much lighter than a training school. You also get summer and winter breaks. Finding some people to train gongfu with is easier at university, though the training might be very underwhelming at first.

If money is a concern, teaching business English on the side is very lucrative, even if it's a little illegal.

I will warn, though, "chocolate people" are not really welcomed in China. Training schools and many universities, in accordance with Chinese culture, will not hire black people. That said, you will most likely find enough good experiences and nice people to make it worthwhile. And good gongfu teachers, the ones worth training with, really don't give a ****, as most people who aim to study kungfu in China are weirdos anyways.

TAO YIN

12-05-2012, 07:01 PM

Wiz,

Don't be a poor sport. :D

Faruq

12-05-2012, 07:30 PM

Not anymore.

That was the case when I came here back in '99 but somewhere around '06 or so (I forget which year exactly) the government started cracking down on unqualified Engrish teachers. You can still just show up with a tourist visa and work illegally for a training center or as a tutor but if you plan to possibly stay long term, especially in a single city, I wouldn't reccommend it. You can get caught, deported and banned from ever entering China again. It's not common and that's why I think if you are happy to just hop around from city to city it's probably no big deal. Get caught and just hop a plane to Thailand for the weekend and then come back but in some other city where immigration doesn't know you.

My personal experience has been that immigration has come to my home twice over the years and just recently they even showed up unnannounced at my job to check my papers and interview me to see if they could catch me talking about teaching anywhere else in my free time (which would also be illegal and grounds for deportation)

So teaching illegally is a roll of the dice. Current law requires a BA at the very minumum...from an English speaking country.... and it's very hard to get a proper Z Visa nowadays without some sort of TESOL cert on top of that...even if it's just some dumb online course. Oh yeah, and they also now require a police check from your home country stating you have no criminal record. Kind of a dumb rule though since local police stations in America only have local records. . . at the least that's how it was when I got mine.

Plus, I researched that 4 or 5 years back and they were saying on the forums that unless you had speciial connections it was near impossible to get posts in Southern China with the intense competition among English teachers because of the beautiful weather; and forget Hong Kong. That was why I asked what can an American do for work in the South, because it won't be English without special connections. Plus, I gotta moslem name so I gotta hope I'm not branded a terrorist because of stupid al qaeda and the taliban. Not to mention people who don't like Hui or Uighur people seeing my name and just writing me off saying "well he's not gonna drink, and he's gonna be all picky about not eating food with pork in it and if he misses one of his 5 prayers he's gonna act like the world's coming to an end; so he's gonna just be a big party-pooper so I don't think I even want this guy training in my school!", lol. I've just got it bad all around so someone start playing their violin for me. Oh, and I just saw pazman's post. So I don't have connections, I'm a moslem, and I'm Black. Might as well just save myself the the misery and just stay where I am, lol. Very informative if teaching English in the South weren't so competitive. No, still very interesting pazman, though I don't understand why Chinese culture dictates not to hire Blacks, unless it's based on American culture as passed on from Americans who were doing business there before the 1980s. And why do you and Bawang say Westerners seeking gong fu in China are weirdos? Bawang says they even have a crazy look in their eyes. I'm not understanding. Plus, I consider it for mastering Cantonese and Mandarin because I think I'd have much better chances to learn Bak Mei in the U.S., though not in Illinois. When I hang around Cantonese here, they always speak English, lol.

Faruq

12-05-2012, 07:45 PM

And I should add that the "Chocolate People" thing is a surprise, because a family that owns a shop in Chinatown here practically adopted me! The wife told me she used to teach Cantonese back in Hong Kong, which I told her I wanted to learn. She tried to push me toward Mandarin, but I insisted on Cantonese so she started giving me lessons each week at a nearby bakery. She introduced me to a nice Cantonese-American girl (but the girl I would come with coke-blocked me and ruined that), and after a few months the lessons moved to the family's home. Oh, but because of my language abilities I don't think she believed I was American because she kept asking me what country my parents came from each week though every week I answered her "from Chicago, I'm Black-American". Maybe she thought I was Desi or something because of my name, because Indians often ask me if I'm Indian. That must be it if Chinese culture kind of prevents the hiring of members of the Chocolate Clan. Or perhaps drive-by's occurred after some of the rap concerts my predecessors in China obviously threw at the Universities they taught at since they were Chocolate people after all, once they got in good and felt secure, spoiling it for all the rest of us! #^%# Chocolate People!

omarthefish

12-05-2012, 08:13 PM

... Plus, I gotta moslem name so I gotta hope I'm not branded a terrorist because of stupid al qaeda and the taliban. ..
Hi there. My names Omar. Never had a problem with a Visa but I have been singled out to have my bags searched at customs....twice. :eek:

... Very informative if teaching English in the South weren't so competitive. . .

Meh. I don't think it's that competitive. Just not as easy in the past. Now you actually need a degree.

... I don't understand why Chinese culture dictates not to hire Blacks, unless it's based on American culture as passed on from Americans who were doing business there before the 1980s.
Most Chinese experience with black people is the East African's. They're the one's you go to to get ****ty hash or decent X from in Beijing. . . at least before they cleared them out of town for the 2008 Olympics.

... Plus, I consider it for mastering Cantonese and Mandarin because I think I'd have much better chances to learn Bak Mei in the U.S., though not in Illinois. When I hang around Cantonese here, they always speak English, lol.
FWIW, everyone in HK speaks Mandarin now. Sure, it's their second language but ever since the reunification their new primary tourists are rich mainlanders. .. Mandarin...it's the new "English". When I was there last year pretty much everyone with at least a high school education spoke fluent (although heavily accented) Mandarin.

I'd say, get a TESOL cert and then go through English First or some other online placement org and then do a little research about where they want to place you before you sign because "Guangdong" might be some ****tly little suburb 3 hours outside of town. Or show up with enough cash that you can afford a quick trip across to the island and back to switch your Visa from L to Z and do not F around with that part. Schools like to tell you to just start teaching rigt away and they'll get the Visa done over the next few days. A few weeks go by and "bam!" you are now an illegal immigrant and they haven't don't your Visa but now you can't complain or they'll report you for working there without a proper Visa. Hefty fee's for both you and the school but the school get's to avoid paying you your last months pay while you only pay the fine and only one of you gets deported. ;)

Gru Bianca

12-06-2012, 03:22 AM

FWIW, everyone in HK speaks Mandarin now. Sure, it's their second language but ever since the reunification their new primary tourists are rich mainlanders. .. Mandarin...it's the new "English". When I was there last year pretty much everyone with at least a high school education spoke fluent (although heavily accented) Mandarin.

Hi Omar,

sorry but, humm nope, in HK mandarin is still domain of those people doing business with China and the Main lander that have moved over.
Common HK people still do not speak Mandarin well despite they study it at school and I am talking about young generations.
Their root as HK people are still strong.

wiz cool c

12-06-2012, 03:25 AM

After you get used to the SC training method (develop one technique after another with "partner"), you will never be pleased with the solo form training. Most TCMA teachers will teach you form after form. It's very difficult for you to go back. Others may not understand your situation but I can quite understand that.

thanks,you the man. i must agree i am liking the privates now. cause my knee is not fully healed yet and the moderate contact is a nice transition. maybe 6 months or a year and i can get back into shuai jiao. hoping to compete in hong kong at age 43 haha.for real.win or lose

omarthefish

12-06-2012, 04:05 AM

Hi Omar,

sorry but, humm nope, in HK mandarin is still domain of those people doing business with China and the Main lander that have moved over.
Common HK people still do not speak Mandarin well despite they study it at school and I am talking about young generations.
Their root as HK people are still strong.

I'm speaking from my direct experience in HK just last year. I did say it's obviously their second language. I was there for about 4 or 5 days only but I got by entirely with Mandarin. Bought stuff at the local 7-11 in Mandarin. Took various taxi rides around town in Mandarin. Went out for dim-sum and dealt with the waitress in Mandarin and so on. The only person I bumped into during my stay who could not chat in Mandarin was the valet at the hotel. I was in HK with my Shifu and a couple of shixiongdi and I ended up having to talk to him in extremely broken English to ask where the nearest convenience store was. I'll admit that some of the waiters at the dim-sum shop had to struggle with Mandarin but at the "coffe shop" I ate lunch at it wasn't a problem.

Also, I never said they spoke it "well" but I'd say about 90% of the people I met there spoke it and, for the most part, spoke it better than English.

I don't have to take someone's word for it. I was there just last year.

omarthefish

12-06-2012, 04:09 AM

Faruq

12-06-2012, 10:57 AM

Hi there. My names Omar. Never had a problem with a Visa but I have been singled out to have my bags searched at customs....twice. :eek:

Meh. I don't think it's that competitive. Just not as easy in the past. Now you actually need a degree.

Most Chinese experience with black people is the East African's. They're the one's you go to to get ****ty hash or decent X from in Beijing. . . at least before they cleared them out of town for the 2008 Olympics.

FWIW, everyone in HK speaks Mandarin now. Sure, it's their second language but ever since the reunification their new primary tourists are rich mainlanders. .. Mandarin...it's the new "English". When I was there last year pretty much everyone with at least a high school education spoke fluent (although heavily accented) Mandarin.

I'd say, get a TESOL cert and then go through English First or some other online placement org and then do a little research about where they want to place you before you sign because "Guangdong" might be some ****tly little suburb 3 hours outside of town. Or show up with enough cash that you can afford a quick trip across to the island and back to switch your Visa from L to Z and do not F around with that part. Schools like to tell you to just start teaching rigt away and they'll get the Visa done over the next few days. A few weeks go by and "bam!" you are now an illegal immigrant and they haven't don't your Visa but now you can't complain or they'll report you for working there without a proper Visa. Hefty fee's for both you and the school but the school get's to avoid paying you your last months pay while you only pay the fine and only one of you gets deported. ;)

Yeah, that's the reason the lady teaching me Cantonese pushed me toward Mandarin saying it was now the official language and Cantonese was no longer taught in the schools. I just love the challenge with the 7 to 9 tones (depending on who you're talking to). To an Anglophone, learning Cantonese is basically linguistic Calculus. Plus, its only recently that we have a lot of Mandarin speakers here in the U.S., because historically Cantonese has always been the majority. But if you say Westerners looking to teach English in China are now overwhelmingly requesting posts in the North over Southern posts, then wow! The tide really has changed and it shouldn't be a problem for me to get a teaching job in Hong Kong, Fushan or Guangzhou! Yaaay. And I wonder how the not-hiring Schokoladen Gladze for jobs works when you arrange everything via a U.S. based TEOSL teacher placement service. Would the University or school in China set you up to fail and plot to fire you for incompetence or something if when the English teacher got there they found out they were Black? I wonder how Obama's brother harangued it? He's obviously not an English teacher though, lol.

bawang

12-06-2012, 11:00 AM

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 11:16 AM

To swing sword properly (train form) and to chop down tree branches (sparring) should be done at the same time. Unfortunately most TCMA teachers only teach you one but not the other.This is true. I'm a country boy and just called all that "chores". But in either case I still had to be taught first, to do it right later.

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 11:18 AM

i do traditional fundamental training and i have no experience. you flail around spinning that guan dao like a rave stick and you have experience. ok.By hitting tire with stick.....have I told you about my unicorn? :rolleyes:

I'm still not buying this broken english routine of yours. I bet you're a white guy.

GeneChing

12-06-2012, 11:41 AM

By hitting tire with stick.....have I told you about my unicorn? :rolleyes: Unicorns are real! (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1199180#post1199180)

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 11:49 AM

Unicorns are real! (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1199180#post1199180)Well, I'll be gobsmacked. LOL!

Faruq

12-06-2012, 11:54 AM

would you teach ebonics as an ESL teacher?

i really dont know if you will meet racism, i havent been back in years and the culture has changed. people only know america from seterotypes.

however guangdong has a large african population so they might get used to you.

Training schools and many universities, in accordance with Chinese culture, will not hire black people.

Never heard that before. I'll have to look for some youtube videos showing that. Do they learn kung fu? And no ebonics unless there was a compelling reason to do so. That whole Black people and Chinese culture is still an enigma; no one's really explained what we have to do with Chinese culture. Anyhoo, Guandong weather is very much like that of Hawaii from what I hear, so I'd love to be able to live there a few years. But I've got a distant German uncle-in-law who's been living there like the last 30 years running his factories there and from the second hand stories to do business there you have to be a cowboy and be ready to draw your weapon when you get cheated on deals or else you'll never be successful. I wish I could talk to him, or could've when he was young.

bawang

12-06-2012, 11:58 AM

By hitting tire with stick.....have I told you about my unicorn? :rolleyes:

I'm still not buying this broken english routine of yours. I bet you're a white guy.

you sound weak like woman.

Never heard that before. I'll have to look for some youtube videos showing that. Do they learn kung fu? And no ebonics unless there was a compelling reason to do so. That whole Black people and Chinese culture is still an enigma; no one's really explained what we have to do with Chinese culture. Anyhoo, Guandong weather is very much like that of Hawaii from what I hear, so I'd love to be able to live there a few years. But I've got a distant German uncle-in-law who's been living there like the last 30 years running his factories there and from the second hand stories to do business there you have to be a cowboy and be ready to draw your weapon when you get cheated on deals or else you'll never be successful. I wish I could talk to him, or could've when he was young.
i was saying learning cantonese is like learning ebonics. ebonics is an ancient dialect with roots to africa, but you cant use it to communicate with most americans.

guangdong has an african district called chocolate city, about 100 thousand west africans live there.

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 12:01 PM

I'm stronger than your mom.

bawang

12-06-2012, 12:04 PM

I'm stronger than your mom.

i also punch in horse stance every morning. you mad?

Faruq

12-06-2012, 12:26 PM

you sound weak like woman.

i was saying learning cantonese is like learning ebonics. ebonics is an ancient dialect with roots to africa, but you cant use it to communicate with most americans.

guangdong has an african district called chocolate city, about 100 thousand west africans live there.

Good looking, Weezy. I'mma look it up.

Hey, wait! Isn't that the place that had that huge scandal with all the drunk business executives and government officials going there to get their Chocolate fixes when their wives found out???

pazman

12-06-2012, 01:14 PM

Never heard that before. I'll have to look for some youtube videos showing that. Do they learn kung fu? And no ebonics unless there was a compelling reason to do so. That whole Black people and Chinese culture is still an enigma; no one's really explained what we have to do with Chinese culture.

What we call racism in the USA is actually a very deeply embedded concept found throughout Chinese logic and folk religion, and forms a core of Chinese national identity. A cursory glance at how China used to conduct foreign relations before the Opium Wars will provide keen insight into this.

Many of my black friends who haven't traveled find it amazing that the world outside the US isn't some bastion of racial harmony.

By "training schools" I mean private English schools that teach professionals, students going to uni abroad, and bored housewives(:D). To most Chinese, it is inconceivable that a black person can speak English, and will be quick to correct you if you say you are meiguoren. You will be feizhouren. This is even in big cities. The country side is a bit more forgiving in my opinion, as anyone foreign will be met by looks of surprise and amazement.

Dealing with other foreigners, though, is really a funny thing. Gongfu attracts some crazy characters (just look at this forum). And the crazy get crazier in China. Many are looking for some kung fu fantasy were a wise master takes him in and trains them for years in the mountains. These guys have "sucker" written all over them, and suckers in China get eaten alive. The next problem is that if they ever do find their special kung fu master, they realize that real gongfu training is actually tedious, hard, and lacking booze and women. So they end up becoming slack offs and achieving nothing.

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 02:20 PM

i also punch in horse stance every morning. you mad?My unicorn has a better accent.

Faruq

12-06-2012, 03:11 PM

What we call racism in the USA is actually a very deeply embedded concept found throughout Chinese logic and folk religion, and forms a core of Chinese national identity. A cursory glance at how China used to conduct foreign relations before the Opium Wars will provide keen insight into this.

Many of my black friends who haven't traveled find it amazing that the world outside the US isn't some bastion of racial harmony.

By "training schools" I mean private English schools that teach professionals, students going to uni abroad, and bored housewives(:D). To most Chinese, it is inconceivable that a black person can speak English, and will be quick to correct you if you say you are meiguoren. You will be feiren. This is even in big cities. The country side is a bit more forgiving in my opinion, as anyone foreign will be met by looks of surprise and amazement.

Dealing with other foreigners, though, is really a funny thing. Gongfu attracts some crazy characters (just look at this forum). And the crazy get crazier in China. Many are looking for some kung fu fantasy were a wise master takes him in and trains them for years in the mountains. These guys have "sucker" written all over them, and suckers in China get eaten alive. The next problem is that if they ever do find their special kung fu master, they realize that real gongfu training is actually tedious, hard, and lacking booze and women. So they end up becoming slack offs and achieving nothing.

That's deep, bro! That really explains a lot, and I appreciate it. Wow, I wish I had had money at some point (really any point) to travel abroad. I think it's important to see how the world outside the U.S. works (and that there is a world outside the U.S. that functions fine without having our enlightened culture and laws to guide them, lol), but with the resposibilities of the mortgage, work, etc. and no extra money to do so...well it's never gonna happen. Wow, this is the best explanation and breakdown I've seen of this. Thanks Pazman!

Faruq

12-06-2012, 03:23 PM

guangdong has an african district called chocolate city, about 100 thousand west africans live there.

I googled it but can't find any info on it anywhere. Any links to read more about it?

GeneChing

12-06-2012, 03:27 PM

My unicorn has a better accent. Unicorns are real! (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1199180#post1199180)

In our next issue (Mar+Apr 2013), I am running an article on Chinese unicorns. Then you'll see. All of you. You'll see.

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 03:35 PM

Total synchronicity.

GeneChing

12-06-2012, 03:40 PM

I think it's a sign (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1200327#post1200327).

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 03:43 PM

Whoa! CMA winning in the cage? That's bigger than unicorns.

omarthefish

12-06-2012, 05:47 PM

... The next problem is that if they ever do find their special kung fu master, they realize that real gongfu training is actually tedious, hard, and lacking booze and women. ....
Which China did you visit?

The one I live in is filled with 110 proof Chinese moonshine at lunchtime and Chinese college girls following me around like I was a movie star. :D

pazman

12-06-2012, 05:53 PM

Which China did you visit?

The one I live in is filled with 110 proof Chinese moonshine at lunchtime and Chinese college girls following me around like I was a movie star. :D

You have found the correct gongfu. :)

Gru Bianca

12-06-2012, 06:10 PM

p.s.

I think you misunderstood.

When I say they all speak Mandarin, I did not mean to imply that they had switched. I meant just that most folks have learned it by now just like most folks in Germany or the Netherlands speak English. Of course it's not the language they prefer. I just mean that you can get by fine in Hong Kong nowadays with only Mandarin.

No worries,

I did get you well in the first place, it's just that I do not share your same experience as to the quality or abilities in Mandarin of the HK people.
Spoken out of personal experience with an average of 15 visits per year since 1997.

But again, it's wonderful how each person do perceive things and situations differently

It's all good

bawang

12-06-2012, 06:22 PM

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 07:13 PM

Wow, you're English is much improved.

bawang

12-06-2012, 07:21 PM

my english is always good.

away from me now, hairy one.

Lebaufist

12-06-2012, 09:26 PM

sometime you no speak right.

Faruq

12-07-2012, 09:07 AM

pazman

12-07-2012, 12:03 PM

the difference, you see, is we never made "strange fruits", never had sex farms, never bred blacks like cattle and forced the most well endowed slave to rape the slavewomen, while castrating the other males.

most prejudiced chinese see blacks as ugly people. most prejudiced americans see blacks as subhuman animals. there is a difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKLyZvyCbV4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YkYVduQFuc

Cool videos.

Your history is off, though.

China engaged in all sorts of slavery, castration, comfort women, etc.. The difference is that Americans claim that the USA is "land of the free"...the standard is set higher when they say that ****.

Prejudice, racism, and slavery are all completely separate subjects, though.

In the USA, a black man dating a white women might elicit some stares in certain parts of the country. In China, people will form a lynch mob, lock black students in a dorm, and attempt to burn it down because of Chinese "don't touch our women" syndrome. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_anti-African_protests) BTW, that was 1988, not 1888.

Faruq

12-07-2012, 02:31 PM

Cool videos.

Your history is off, though.

China engaged in all sorts of slavery, castration, comfort women, etc.. The difference is that Americans claim that the USA is "land of the free"...the standard is set higher when they say that ****.

Prejudice, racism, and slavery are all completely separate subjects, though.

In the USA, a black man dating a white women might elicit some stares in certain parts of the country. In China, people will form a lynch mob, lock black students in a dorm, and attempt to burn it down because of Chinese "don't touch our women" syndrome. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_anti-African_protests) BTW, that was 1988, not 1888.

Wow, a brother can't date Cantonese women in China nowadays? Wooooow. It's like that for a brotha still? Wow. Pazman, real talk-you've really enlightened me this week. But its okay for a White guy to date them? I'm speechless. Even in the countryside?....

YouKnowWho

12-07-2012, 03:05 PM

Wow, a brother can't date Cantonese women in China nowadays? Wooooow. It's like that for a brotha still? Wow. Pazman, real talk-you've really enlightened me this week. But its okay for a White guy to date them? I'm speechless. Even in the countryside?....

Chinese is always racism. When I was in my 3rd grade, I got into a fight with a Taiwanese kid (I came from China). The teacher hit that boy 1 times and hit me 6 times. The teacher then asked me if I knew why. I told him that I didn't. The teacher said, "Because you are a pig (non-Taiwanese)".

When I was in NYC Chinatwon, the waiter in restaurant won't serve me because I didn't speak Cantonese. He said in Cantonese, "Tang Ren doesn't speak Tang Hua - Chinese doesn't speak Chinese". In his mind, Cantonese is the only Chinese language.

I'm not proud of it but it did happen to me and I hate it big time.

pazman

12-07-2012, 03:17 PM

Wow, a brother can't date Cantonese women in China nowadays? Wooooow. It's like that for a brotha still? Wow. Pazman, real talk-you've really enlightened me this week. But its okay for a White guy to date them? I'm speechless. Even in the countryside?....

No, my point to Bawang was that China is not at all exempt from racist bull****. That event happened twenty years ago

The issue of foreign men dating Chinese women is a touchy one for many Chinese men. That's okay....women instinctively know the power of Chocolate Love. You will be fine.:)

Please don't take my advice too seriously, it's just I've had friends go to China and they received a bit of culture shock with the racism.

Faruq

12-07-2012, 03:23 PM

Now I'm confused, Pazman. Will racism keep me from getting a job or not? Will it keep me from having a good time or not?

YouKnowWho

12-07-2012, 03:24 PM

You just don't go to China and find yourself a wife there. You are looking for problem for yourself. Here was what a Chinese girl told me.

A: I want to make a million dollars in 5 years.
B: But your American husband only make 100,000 a year.
A: He is only my "stepping stone".
B: ...

The day that your Chinese wife get her green card, the day that she will disappear from your life.

pazman

12-07-2012, 03:34 PM

Now I'm confused, Pazman. Will racism keep me from getting a job or not? Will it keep me from having a good time or not?

No, you can find an English teaching job. But you may be turned down from many before you get one. I would recommend applying to universities.

You will have a good time, but you may be taken aback by some the ridiculous things people say or do.

Faruq

12-07-2012, 03:59 PM

Thanks, John and Pazman. Universities only! And that Chinese wife plays true as well as stories that have got to us from my distant European uncle-in-law who has the factories in Canton. But of course this involves professional model level looks on the part of the wife, so things might've turned out different if the wife in question were more average looking, lol.

mooyingmantis

12-07-2012, 04:13 PM

OK, we have two conversations going on here.

Answer to first conversation:

I train with two Chinese shifu. One is from Taiwan. He only teaches forms and applications. No two person drills and no sparring. The second is from the Mainland. The Mainland school only teaches forms and applications, no sparring.

Answer to second conversation:

My teacher from the Mainland of China told me that there are too few Chinese woman for the Chinese men. Some Chinese men seek out Vietnamese woman due to the lack of Chinese women. An NBC report stated that there are about 120 Chinese boys for every 100 Chinese girls. Is it any wonder they don't want foreigners dating their woman?

YouKnowWho

12-07-2012, 04:47 PM

on the part of the wife,

It depends on your attitude. Many of my students went to China or Taiwan and find themselves some Chinese wives. I had told them exactly the same story. Some said, "What can I lose? If I can use her for 4 years and she leaves me, I can find a new one for another 4 years." I don't quite like this approach because I believe marriage is not just sex but love. It definitely is one way to protect yourself if you decide to do so - don't expect love but sex.

pazman

12-07-2012, 05:07 PM

My teacher from the Mainland of China told me that there are too few Chinese woman for the Chinese men. Some Chinese men seek out Vietnamese woman due to the lack of Chinese women. An NBC report stated that there are about 120 Chinese boys for every 100 Chinese girls. Is it any wonder they don't want foreigners dating their woman?

Surely you know why there are fewer women than men, right?

bawang

12-07-2012, 06:19 PM

Cool videos.

Your history is off, though.

China engaged in all sorts of slavery, castration, comfort women, etc.. The difference is that Americans claim that the USA is "land of the free"...the standard is set higher when they say that ****.

we didnt sail across the ocean to catch other people to be slaves. systematically, methodically, destroying their culture, history, language, and knowledge of self. not only seeing them as animals, but also teaching them so they themselves believe it.

Wow, a brother can't date Cantonese women in China nowadays? Wooooow. It's like that for a brotha still? Wow. Pazman, real talk-you've really enlightened me this week. But its okay for a White guy to date them? I'm speechless. Even in the countryside?....

he doesnt know what hes talking about. guangdong people are the most open and accepting of black people, because they meet real black people.

of course if you go to a remote village and try to deflower virgins it will be different. i am assuming you dont have mental retardation.

china is not a paradise, but it doesnt have centuries of racial hierarchy. people are ignorant, but theres no hidden subconscious master-slave dynamics going on.

The difference is that Americans claim that the USA is "land of the free"...the standard is set higher when they say that ****.

jordan davis got shot just 2 weeks ago. before that trayvon martin. aiyana jones.

mooyingmantis

12-07-2012, 06:47 PM

Surely you know why there are fewer women than men, right?

Yes, but that is irrelevant to the conversation. What is, simply is regardless of why it is.

Faruq

12-07-2012, 06:50 PM

we never rounded up little boys on a farm and raped them...

Hey man, where did that happen?? That wasn't in Roots, bro!

bawang

12-07-2012, 06:54 PM

Hey man, where did that happen?? That wasn't in Roots, bro!

in some historical documents about catching slaves.

my point is you are black man in america, and pazman is trying to warn you about the dangers of racism. thats pretty sad.

pazman

12-07-2012, 07:04 PM

we didnt sail across the ocean to catch other people to be slaves.

You are right. China was never a maritime power. They either captured or bought slaves from neighboring countries or demanded them from countries as tribute.

its different when desperate chinese parents sell their daughter out of poverty. its another thing to gather entire villages of people, chain them up, and pack them like sardines, row upon row.

systematically, methodically, destroying their culture, history, language, and knowledge of self. not only seeing them as animals, but also teaching them so they themselves believe it.

and NO, chinese never rounded up little boys in a farm and rape them. then when they hit puberty castrate the ones with smaller penuse, and force the larger ones to rape their own women, because larger genitals indicate higher fertility and healthier offpsring in cattle raising. this has never been done before in the history of humankind.

Actually, the Chinese military did castrate the boys of defeated minorities and dispersed the people of defeated nations. Don't get your jimmies in a rustle, though, it was pretty common in the ancient times in the West, too. Slave breeding happened back in ancient times as well.

Bawang, this seems like a sensitive topic for you. What does this have to do with racism in China these days?

Faruq

12-07-2012, 07:05 PM

in some historical documents about catching slaves.

my point is you are black man in america, and pazman is trying to warn you about the dangers of racism. thats pretty sad.

Yeah, pretty ironic. Hunh, Weezy? lol But Pazman did put it all back into proper perspective in his last message though...

bawang

12-07-2012, 07:16 PM

Bawang, this seems like a sensitive topic for you. What does this have to do with racism in China these days?

im not sensitive to it. im just giving you graphic reminders of your own past when you call other countries racist when its over the top and totally uncalled for. im educating you.

Yeah, pretty ironic. Hunh, Weezy? lol But Pazman did put it all back into proper perspective in his last message though...

no man. hes making things up and distorting things to downplay the topic of racism. the "they did it too" argument.

ming dynasty castrated 300 sons of mongol officers and sent them to the palace to be eunuchs. hes comparing that to americans enslaving millions of africans for 400 years.

tang emperor asked korea for some concubines and corrupt officials in korea kidnapped some village women and caused controversy in the palace. hes comparing that to systematic raping of black women during slavery.

pazman

12-07-2012, 07:40 PM

im not sensitive to it. im just giving you graphic reminders of your own past when you call other countries racist.

Well, not my past, but feel free to keep generalizing.

You are deflecting, btw.

no man. hes making things up and distorting things to downplay the topic of racism. ming dynasty castrated 300 sons of mongol officers and sent them to the palace to be eunuchs. hes comparing that to americans enslaving millions of africans for 400 years.

He asked if Chocolate People were welcomed in China. I told him there was racism, and that there might be problems with getting hired. That's just being honest. That's not a grudge against China. It used to be that way, too, when I lived in Japan, but the situation is much different now. I am also completely willing to admit that my perception is clouded by living in Wuhan.

I in no way compared an incident of 1600 child sons of Miao rebels being castrated to American slavery. YOU said it didn't exist in China. Racism in China has exactly nothing to do with slavery anywhere.

bawang

12-07-2012, 07:43 PM

I in no way compared an incident of 1600 child sons of Miao rebels being castrated to American slavery. YOU said it didn't exist in China. Racism in China has exactly nothing to do with slavery anywhere.

i said cattle style breeding of slaves where castration is an important part of regulation was not practiced anywhere else in the entire world.

He asked if Chocolate People were welcomed in China. I told him there was racism, and that there might be problems with getting hired. That's just being honest. That's not a grudge against China. It used to be that way, too, when I lived in Japan, but the situation is much different now. I am also completely willing to admit that my perception is clouded by living in Wuhan.

being prejudiced is different from systematic oppression. this is hard for you to understand.

when i was a boy, kids would try to drown me for fun. thats worlds apart from ignorant chinese not hiring black english teachers because they thought america only has white people.

pazman

12-07-2012, 07:45 PM

i said cattle style breeding of slaves where castration is an important part of regulation was not practiced anywhere else in the entire world.

Not at the time, you are correct. I don't see how this relates to racism in China, though.

bawang

12-07-2012, 07:47 PM

Not at the time, you are correct. I don't see how this relates to racism in China, though.

because racism is institutionalized systematic oppression of an entire people.

YouKnowWho

12-07-2012, 07:54 PM

Sometime people treat you bad because you are different. Sometime people treat you good also because you are different. It depends on whether you can use it toward your advantage or not.

Kellen Bassette

12-07-2012, 07:57 PM

because racism is institutionalized systematic oppression of an entire people.

How can you claim people of color cannot be racist? There are countless examples of systematic oppression by people of color. Also, color has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of examples of people of the same color oppressing, enslaving or committing genocide on peoples of another tribe, culture, village, race or whatever...even though they look the same.

The Africans rounded up other African tribes to sell them to the Americas. There's been a whole lot of messed up crap all over the world...it's not just white and black. Does it really matter which race did the most despicable thing out of all the horrible things that have been done?

Kellen Bassette

12-07-2012, 07:58 PM

I see you retracted that..fair enough...

bawang

12-07-2012, 08:04 PM

yeah man, i want to keep it semi serious.

im saying prejudice a black man faces in china is basically nothing, because it doesnt bring up memories of hurt and humiliation and domination to your entire people. you need to understand a racist act is symbolic.

whereas any kind of prejudice is very serious to white ex pats, because most of them never experienced it in america or europe. even the smallest act can be shocking. and most of them take it way out of proportion.

pazman was saying on page 9 american racism is the same as chinese prejudice. thats just rediculous. we are nowhere on the same level as america. also its disrespectful to warn a black man about racism when he lives in racism.

Lebaufist

12-07-2012, 08:29 PM

im not sensitive to it.Oh come on, Jewish people are victims of racism too.

Kellen Bassette

12-07-2012, 08:35 PM

bawang

12-07-2012, 08:36 PM

Oh come on, Jewish people are victims of racism too.

what the yehudi people experienced is racism. thats nowhere the same level as chinese people refusing to kiss your ass.

Lebaufist

12-07-2012, 09:17 PM

Thats nowhere the same level as chinese people refusing to kiss your ass.Its only the girls for some reason. Oh wait that would be me doing the kiss........never mind.

bawang

12-07-2012, 11:15 PM

Its only the girls for some reason. Oh wait that would be me doing the kiss........never mind.

you make my heart boil with rage as i smash my testicles agaisnt the keyboard.

wenshu

12-07-2012, 11:43 PM

because racism is institutionalized systematic oppression of an entire people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai

You realize there is a difference between racism and slavery right?

Just because the West has a history of atrocities against African peoples doesn't justify Chinese racism nor render it any less pernicious.

wiz cool c

12-08-2012, 03:44 AM

chinese chicks love white guys here

Lebaufist

12-08-2012, 05:51 AM

you make my heart boil with rage as i smash my testicles agaisnt the keyboard.
Its OK, you can replace the "b" and the "n" pretty easily. :p

Shadow_Trickery

12-08-2012, 06:07 AM

chinese chicks love white guys here

+1. All about the English-Chinese girls.

David Jamieson

12-08-2012, 06:24 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai

You realize there is a difference between racism and slavery right?

Just because the West has a history of atrocities against African peoples doesn't justify Chinese racism nor render it any less pernicious.

The west? Slavery was abolished by the west. remember? It is still happening in Africa, the Middle east, Asia.

Indentured slavery is practiced many places in the world but no longer in the west. the US was the last Bastion of white slave owners and that was abolished in 1865.

Racisim however is practiced in all societies.

Oppression and repression of other peoples, while not racism is practiced in all societies bar none to some degree or another.

To make institutionalized racism a white thing is a critical error in thinking. Take a trip to Saudi Arabia or UAE if you want to see real ugly racism. You want to see ugly violence based on ethnicity? Go to Africa or India or the middle east.

If you think racism in North America is bad or out of control, you're in a state of ignorance of the whole world. If any countries are working on purging that from themselves it is western liberal countries.

And that's not racist to say. What countries are multicultural? yeah, those are the ones that are attempting to generationally eliminate racism and prejudice. How many countries are multicultural by rule of law?

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 07:00 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai

You realize there is a difference between racism and slavery right?

Just because the West has a history of atrocities against African peoples doesn't justify Chinese racism nor render it any less pernicious.

Africans have a history of atrocities against African peoples!

In fact, just about every nation of old enslaved others, including the Chinese!

It wasn't considered wrong until comparatively lately, historically speaking!

bawang

12-08-2012, 07:30 AM

chinese chicks love white guys here

white chicks love black guys here. pure, innocent white maiden ravashed by ten ronnie colemans on a bed of roses. every friday at the ymca.

+1. All about the English-Chinese girls.

you are free to enjoy our waman. you are a man of honor.

bawang

12-08-2012, 07:50 AM

And that's not racist to say. What countries are multicultural? yeah, those are the ones that are attempting to generationally eliminate racism and prejudice. How many countries are multicultural by rule of law?

my childhood in atlantic canada was filled with sadness. not only for me, but all around me. most of my friends have taken to drugs and crime.

i am dead inside. after i make some money, i will leave canada forever. when i go back to my village, to the remnants of the boxer rebellion, i will add my story and teach my descendants about your people, and renew our vows.

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 07:59 AM

my childhood in atlantic canada was filled with sadness. not only for me, but all around me. most of my friends have taken to drugs and crime.

i am dead inside. after i make some money, i will leave canada forever. when i go back to my village, to the remnants of the boxer rebellion, i will add my story and teach my descendants about your people, and renew our vows.

Where will you go?

Valhalla, or Xanadu?

bawang

12-08-2012, 08:01 AM

Where will you go?

Valhalla, or Xanadu?

to the town of an ancient prince, called bel-air

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 08:10 AM

to the town of an ancient prince, called bel-air

Stop by in your heliochopper when you are on your way, I'll give you the hug you never had as a little boy!

Bring your mother, he probably needs a hug too!:)

bawang

12-08-2012, 08:17 AM

Stop by in your heliochopper when you are on your way, I'll give you the hug you never had as a little boy!

Bring your mother, he probably needs a hug too!:)

the helicopter symbolizes the penus of the white man entering the vaginer of the chinese woman. i burned it.

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 08:22 AM

the helicopter symbolizes the penus of the white man entering the vaginer of the chinese woman. i burned it.

That explains why Chinese wimins love White men, they have a whirlwind of a time!:D

wenshu

12-08-2012, 08:26 AM

Africans have a history of atrocities against African peoples!

In fact, just about every nation of old enslaved others, including the Chinese!

It wasn't considered wrong until comparatively lately, historically speaking!

The west? Slavery was abolished by the west. remember? It is still happening in Africa, the Middle east, Asia.

Indentured slavery is practiced many places in the world but no longer in the west. the US was the last Bastion of white slave owners and that was abolished in 1865.

Racisim however is practiced in all societies.

Oppression and repression of other peoples, while not racism is practiced in all societies bar none to some degree or another.

To make institutionalized racism a white thing is a critical error in thinking. Take a trip to Saudi Arabia or UAE if you want to see real ugly racism. You want to see ugly violence based on ethnicity? Go to Africa or India or the middle east.

If you think racism in North America is bad or out of control, you're in a state of ignorance of the whole world. If any countries are working on purging that from themselves it is western liberal countries.

And that's not racist to say. What countries are multicultural? yeah, those are the ones that are attempting to generationally eliminate racism and prejudice. How many countries are multicultural by rule of law?

I was just making a point about bawang's moral equivalency argument that racism in China is not as bad because the Chinese didn't participate in the transatlantic slave trade.

Beyond that I don't really understand what exactly you guys are addressing with your own moral equivalency, maybe b-wizzy can oblige you in that discussion.

bawang

12-08-2012, 08:31 AM

I was just making a point about bawang's moral equivalency argument that racism in China is not as bad because the Chinese didn't participate in the transatlantic slave trade.

racism in china is not as bad because the chinese did not participate in the transatlantic slave trade.

in high school my black friend get fukin flash backs like a war vet with ptsd. i experienced it too, even a simple word leaves a powerful echo in your mind, you suddenly see the face of everyone that called you that name, and all their voices. im trying to make you understand that.

when a minority calls another minority a name, we feel nothing. when a white person calls you a name, it carries power. it resonates like a gunshot. some people get so enraged they dont eat and sleep. its that powerful. and to compare that to ignorancce in china is rediculous.

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 08:36 AM

I was just making a point about bawang's moral equivalency argument that racism in China is not as bad because the Chinese didn't participate in the transatlantic slave trade.

Beyond that I don't really understand what exactly you guys are addressing with your own moral equivalency, maybe b-wizzy can oblige you in that discussion.

No, just using your post as a jumping off point. My comment was not addressed directly to you or anything you have said, but to the conversation in general.

There is no moral equivalency, but there is a socio-cultural narcissism involved in judging past cultures for their perceived moral failings against today moral standards.

Today's narcissist, holier-than-thou judges will also be judged by the holier-than-thou narcissists of the future!

Human beings do bad things, no one is better or worse than anyone else in the long run. Today's judges happily kill the unborn and are now trying to kill off the those who are too expensive to keep alive, and they think they won't be judged by future generations for this?

What goes around comes around!

wenshu

12-08-2012, 08:39 AM

No, just using your post as a jumping off point. My comment was not addressed directly to you or anything you have said, but to the conversation in general.

Fair enough.

bawang

12-08-2012, 08:43 AM

Human beings do bad things, no one is better or worse than anyone else in the long run.
no one wants to be the worst. no one wants to be the bad guy. no one wants to be the devil. but you have no control over the actions of your forefathers, and you are enjoying the fruits of their labor, and that shapes what describes and labels you today.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 08:46 AM

in high school my black friend get fukin flash backs like a war vet with ptsd. i experienced it too, even a simple word leaves a powerful echo in your mind, you suddenly see the face of everyone that called you that name, and all their voices. im trying to make you understand that.

when a minority calls another minority a name, we feel nothing. when a white person calls you a name, it carries power. it resonates like a gunshot. some people get so enraged they dont eat and sleep. its that powerful. and to compare that to ignorancce in china is rediculous.

You're too sensitive.

bawang

12-08-2012, 08:49 AM

You're too sensitive.

i dull the pain with beer and ukranian prostitutes. it keeps me sane.

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 08:51 AM

no one wants to be the worst. no one wants to be the bad guy. no one wants to be the devil. but you have no control over the actions of your forefathers, and you are enjoying the fruits of their labor, and that shapes what describes and labels you today.

The same goes for all peoples friend, the Chinese were, historically, just as, or more cruel than early white settlers of America. I am unaffected by what my forefathers did or didn't do.

The past is the past!

Qin was a bad, bad man. He unified China, but he did it against the will of the people. He killed millions of people and enslaved the entire populace to his view of the way things SHOULD be! They remain under a semblance of servitude to this day.

Be sure to share that history with your family village as well, when you have the time to visit them.

Faruq

12-08-2012, 08:51 AM

you make my heart boil with rage as i smash my testicles agaisnt the keyboard.

Wow! Mandarin people are so passionate!!!! I wish I had that! Hey, but how do you see the words through that thick crust of dried semen on your computer screen, bro?

bawang

12-08-2012, 08:53 AM

The same goes for all peoples friend, the Chinese were, historically, just as, or more cruel than early white settlers of America. I am unaffected by what my forefathers did or didn't do.

The past is the past!

Qin was a bad, bad man. He unified China, but he did it against the wil of the people. He killed millions of people and enslaved the entire populace to his view of the way things SHOULD be! They remain under a semblance of servitude to this day.

Be sure to share that history with your family village as well, when you have the time to visit them.

if you let me keep tibet, i will let this go.

Wow! Mandarin people are so passionate!!!! I wish I had that! Hey, but how do you see the words through that thick crust on your computer screen, bro?

i see through the crust on the screen like how the honorable elijah muhammad was able to see past the crust of american society.

Faruq

12-08-2012, 08:54 AM

no one wants to be the worst. no one wants to be the bad guy. no one wants to be the devil. but you have no control over the actions of your forefathers, and you are enjoying the fruits of their labor, and that shapes what describes and labels you today.

That's deep, Weezy. Deep. But also, like everyone points out it's happened in every country in the world at some time in history. We just some violent mother%&#@$%s, I guess?....

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 08:57 AM

if you let me keep tibet, i will let this go.

i see through the crust on the screen like how the honorable elijah muhammad was able to see past the crust of american society.

Tibet is for Yeti's! Why do you want Yeti-landia?

That's deep, Weezy. Deep. But also, like everyone points out it's happened in every country in the world at some time in history. We just some violent mother%&#@$%s, I guess?....

Yup!

bawang

12-08-2012, 08:57 AM

That's deep, Weezy. Deep. But also, like everyone points out it's happened in every country in the world at some time in history. We just some violent mother%&#@$%s, I guess?....

the point is no, it did not happen in every country in the world in history. the scope of bloodshed and sorrow in america was a scale of apocalyptic proportions. thats why its rediculous for pazman to warn you about racism in china.

Faruq

12-08-2012, 08:58 AM

racism in china towards Blacks is not as bad because the chinese did not participate in the transatlantic slave trade.

in high school my black friend get fukin flash backs like a war vet with ptsd. i experienced it too, even a simple word leaves a powerful echo in your mind, you suddenly see the face of everyone that called you that name, and all their voices. im trying to make you understand that.

when a minority calls another minority a name, we feel nothing. when a white person calls you a name, it carries power. it resonates like a gunshot. some people get so enraged they dont eat and sleep. its that powerful. and to compare that to ignorancce in china is rediculous.

Deep again, Beezy. But no one here's gonna feel you. You wastin' yo' breath, bruh. Only another minority would even have ever perceived that. No one else'll be able to entertain the possibiliity.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 09:00 AM

i dull the pain with beer and ukranian prostitutes. it keeps me sane.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg48ZZ2wYfM

If you really want to make an argument about pernicious institutionalized racism in the U.S., the transatlantic slave trade is a little dated. I mean, the idea of a subconscious collective racial memory is philosophically interesting but it lacks real world impact.

13th Amendment to the US Constitution, Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
http://allotherpersons.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/incarceration-rates-by-race.gif?w=344&h=275

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:01 AM

Deep again, Beezy. But no one here's gonna feel you. You wastin' yo' breath, bruh. Only another minority would even have ever perceived that. No one else'll be able to entertain the possibiliity.

you right, bro. friendship knuckle touch. can i have ur facebook?

Tibet is for Yeti's! Why do you want Yeti-landia?

the eyeball of tibetan children are said to have aphrodesiac properties. we chinese enjoy oppressing and feasting on the sorrows of barbarians. their souls nourish us and extends our unnatural long life, sustaining us for eons.

*strokes fu manchu beard

that sounds about equal with what europeans did, right? like when a french mistress sicced her dog to tear apart haitian slaves in a fighting pit, and the dog licked her lips with its bloody tungue?

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 09:02 AM

the point is no, it did not happen in every country in the world in history. the scope of bloodshed and sorrow in america was a scale of apocalyptic proportions. thats why its rediculous for pazman to warn you about racism in china.

What? The wealthiest and most philanthropic country the world has every seen? Are you nuts?

Hitler? Stalin? Qin? Ghengis Khan? The Romans? Mohammed? Mao Tse Tung? Fidel Castro? etc. etc. etc.

Are you nuts?:eek:

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 09:06 AM

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:06 AM

What? The wealthiest and most philanthropic country the world has every seen? Are you nuts?

Hitler? Stalin? Qin? Ghengis Khan? The Romans? Mohammed? Mao Tse Tung? Fidel Castro? etc. etc. etc.

Are you nuts?:eek:

its not about violence, its about ideology and intent.

If you really want to make an argument about pernicious institutionalized racism in the U.S., the transatlantic slave trade is a little dated. I mean, the idea of a subconscious collective racial memory is philosophically interesting but it lacks real world impact.

its highly relevant. thats why black on white rape is such an important aspect of prison culture. thats the collective racial memory at work.

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 09:12 AM

its not about violence, its about ideology and intent.

Right! Its okay to kill and enslave millions of people for the aggrandizement of the few! After all they are the superior ones and God/Tao chose them for greatness so the pain and suffering of the little people is meaningless when weighed against the benefits of wealth and privilege for the few at the top!

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 09:14 AM

its highly relevant. thats why black on white rape is such an important aspect of prison culture. thats the collective racial memory at work.

Since it was blacks that sold other blacks to the white slavers, why don't they rape each other too?

Or better yet, they can rape themselves! That way they can get out their racial rage and not have to go to prison!

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:14 AM

Since it was blacks that sold other blacks to the white slavers, why don't they rape each other too?

Or better yet, they can rape themselves! That way they can get out their racial rage and not have to go to prison!

because the pheromones of white men resemble black women.

Right! Its okay to kill and enslave millions of people for the aggrandizement of the few! After all they are the superior ones and God/Tao chose them for greatness so the pain and suffering of the little people is meaningless when weighed against the benefits of wealth and privilege for the few at the top!

yes. thats the purpose of chinese martial arts. dont you understand? to accept death.

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 09:18 AM

yes. thats the purpose of chinese martial arts. dont you understand? to accept death.

Then you should be proud of your white, western brothers for adopting a purely Chinese invention and using it to dominate the world.

That demonstrates your racial superiority and inferiority at the same time. Because your people do not rule the world, yet, but their methods did allow it to happen for others!

Its win win!

wenshu

12-08-2012, 09:21 AM

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 09:23 AM

Racism towards people of color in China is not perceived as negative within Chinese culture whereas the negative perception is very strong in western culture because of its association with slavery, jim crow and the current state of affairs within the criminal justice system.

It's still racism, historical moral equivalency isn't going to alter that concise fact.

Yup! Racism is racism no matter what you call it or how it is explained or justified!

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:24 AM

Then you should be proud of your white, western brothers for adopting a purely Chinese invention and using it to dominate the world.

That demonstrates your racial superiority and inferiority at the same time. Because your people do not rule the world, yet, but their methods did allow it to happen for others!

Its win win!

we will, one day, with our cyborg tibetan battle-thralls.

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:26 AM

Racism towards people of color in China is not perceived as negative within Chinese culture whereas the negative perception is very strong in western culture because of its association with slavery, jim crow and the current state of affairs within the criminal justice system.

.

chinese can be understood for ignorance. you have black people for 400 years. you know your slaves very well.

Yup! Racism is racism no matter what you call it or how it is explained or justified!

racism is never justified, but dont be a hypocrite and point out other countries as racist. thats my point.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 09:33 AM

its highly relevant. thats why black on white rape is such an important aspect of prison culture. thats the collective racial memory at work.

Stop fantasizing.

Prison culture is too segregated for that to be a valid point. In fact animosity between Blacks and Hispanics within prison is far worse than between whites. That has more to do with the power politics of prison gang culture.

In any case, what's more likely, resentment born of the historical wounds in a theoretical subconscious collective racial memory? Or resentment from the current state of affairs of institutionalized racism within the criminal justice system and American society itself?

Scott R. Brown

12-08-2012, 09:37 AM

racism is never justified, but dont be a hypocrite and point out other countries as racist. thats my point.

I am not being hypocritical, I am point out your hypocrisy!

Start with yourself, before you try to change the world!

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:38 AM

I am not being hypocritical, I am point out your hypocrisy!

you are not, i was talking about pazman. ill repeat this. a white man warning a black man about the dangers of racism travelling abroad. what kind of divide and conquer bullsh1t is this? lol

african china relationships both on personal and international level is at an all time high. theres 100 thousands africans in one city alone. china is giving billions of dollars and building infrastructure in africa.

the thought of non whites cooperating and being friendly to each other is unsettling to americans, because in america immigrants fight among each other to climb the race hiearchy. each group will attack another group in front of white people to appease them. to show they are higher them others and closer to whites.

so when talking about china, you have to tell a black man, watch out for those chinese, they will be racist to you. they wont understand you. we have an understanding, my slave, my beloved beast.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 09:44 AM

chinese can be understood for ignorance. you have black people for 400 years. you know your slaves very well.
racism is never justified, but dont be a hypocrite and point out other countries as racist. thats my point.

In China racism may not have the weight of centuries of deplorable history behind it. It doesn't change the fact that its still racism. That's my point. Don't try and justify it with false equivalencies.

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:48 AM

In China racism may not have the weight of centuries of deplorable history behind it. It doesn't change the fact that its still racism. That's my point. Don't try and justify it with false equivalencies.

it does, because the psychological effects are not the same. if faruq encounters prejudice, hes not gonna have trouble sleeping at night. in the end, he doesnt see himself as chinese, doesnt need to live there, doesnt desperately want to be chinese and look for chinese acceptance and approval.

its difference for turks and tibetans, not for black people.

you on the other hand, have always been in a position of power. if you go to china and meet prejudice, you are gonna have a much harder time because it challenges your world view.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 09:52 AM

its difference for turks

The Ottomans have it ****ing coming.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 09:54 AM

it does, because the psychological effects are not the same. if faruq encounters prejudice, hes not gonna have trouble sleeping at night. in the end, he doesnt see himself as chinese, doesnt need to live there, doesnt desperately want to be chinese and look for chinese acceptance and approval.

Seriously though, I think people are stronger than you give them credit for. I don't know any black people that lose sleep over slavery.

Law enforcement? That's another story.

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:54 AM

The Ottomans have it ****ing coming.

the ottomans are a people of honor and courage. why u say that?

Seriously though, I think people are stronger than you give them credit for. I don't know any black people that lose sleep over slavery.

Law enforcement? That's another story.

its not about slavery. its about the slave mentality. the mindset is still there.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 10:06 AM

if you go to china and meet prejudice, you are gonna have a much harder time because it challenges your world view.

I'm not bothered in the slightest by Chinese prejudice. I know what it is and how central it is to the Chinese worldview. Especially you indoctrinated mother****ers.

its not about slavery. its about the slave mentality. the mindset is still there.

That's kind of your own racism at work though, isn't it? To assume that there is a 'slave mentality' that persists to this day.

You make references to the master-slave dialectic but do you really understand its conclusion? That the slave is the one who actually ends up with all the power?

the ottomans are a people of honor and courage. why u say that?
They are my peoples mortal enemy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Repin_Cossacks.jpg/800px-Repin_Cossacks.jpg

Zaporozhian Cossacks to the Turkish Sultan!

Thou art a turkish imp, the ****ed devil's brother and friend, and a secretary to Lucifer himself. What the devil kind of knight art thou that cannot slay a hedgehog with your naked ass? The devil ****s, and your army eats. Thou son of a ***** wilt not ever make subjects of Christian sons; we have no fear of your army, by land and by sea we will battle with thee, **** thy mother.

Thou art the Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-****er of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, Armenian pig, Podolian villain, catamite of Tartary, hangman of Kamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, a fool before our God, a grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our arse. Pig's snout, mare's arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw thine own mother!

So the Zaporozhians declare, thou nasty glob of spit.Thou wilt not even be herding Christian pigs. Now we shall conclude, for we don't know the date and don't have a calendar; the moon/month's in the sky, the year in the book, the day's the same over here as it is over there; for this kiss our ass!

Koshovyi Otaman Ivan Sirko, with the whole Zaporozhian Host.

Jimbo

12-08-2012, 10:16 AM

whereas any kind of prejudice is very serious to white ex pats, because most of them never experienced it in america or europe. even the smallest act can be shocking. and most of them take it way out of proportion.

I've actually seen that happen a few times when I lived in Taiwan. Such as when some white Europeans were mistaken for 'Americans', or vice versa. And they'd get REALLY p.o.'d, way beyond what it called for. When I'd hear them complain to me about it, I would smile and say, 'welcome to my world.' I've been mistaken for being: Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Native Taiwanese, Native American, hapa(mixed)...even Mexican (and by a Mexican, no less!), and I never got all bent out of shape about it.

bawang

12-08-2012, 10:17 AM

I'm not bothered in the slightest by Chinese prejudice. I know what it is and how central it is to the Chinese worldview. Especially you indoctrinated mother****ers.
i am indotrinated. to the teachings of malcolm x and khalid muhammad. (srs)

That's kind of your own racism at work though, isn't it? To assume that there is a 'slave mentality' that persists to this day.

no, its my experience from living among black people and hearing the thoughts and experience of my black friends. and seeing first hand what they endure every day.

You make references to the master-slave dialectic but do you really understand its conclusion? That the slave is the one who actually ends up with all the power?
yes, i know that it is happening right now.

They are my peoples mortal enemy.

then do you understand that if a turk insults me, it doesnt ilicit the same emotions when a turk insults you? so when faruq goes to china, the prejudice he meets will not be the same as he experiences in america, and its disrepectful for pazman to warn him of racism.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 10:40 AM

i am indotrinated. to the teachings of malcolm x and khalid muhammad. (srs)

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

then do you understand that if a turk insults me, it doesnt ilicit the same emotions when a turk insults you? so when faruq goes to china, the prejudice he meets will not be the same as he experiences in america, and its disrepectful for pazman to warn him of racism.

I'm not that sensitive about it.

Here's the thing, I doubt that there is much of a difference between Chinese prejudice towards whites vs. towards blacks in the first place.

Perhaps in Hong Kong because of the lasting English influence?

I've actually seen that happen a few times when I lived in Taiwan. Such as when some white Europeans were mistaken for 'Americans', or vice versa.

Try calling a Central/South american 'Mexican'.

bawang

12-08-2012, 10:43 AM

I'm not that sensitive about it.
just like im not sensitive to japanese. because we are not physically different.

Here's the thing, I doubt that there is much of a difference between Chinese prejudice towards whites vs. towards blacks in the first place.

Perhaps in Hong Kong because of the lasting English influence?

well, i was talking about mainland. if you go to hongkong its obviously gonna be different. its two different cultures.

I've actually seen that happen a few times when I lived in Taiwan. Such as when some white Europeans were mistaken for 'Americans', or vice versa. And they'd get REALLY p.o.'d, way beyond what it called for. When I'd hear them complain to me about it, I would smile and say, 'welcome to my world.' I've been mistaken for being: Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Native Taiwanese, Native American, hapa(mixed)...even Mexican (and by a Mexican, no less!), and I never got all bent out of shape about it.

thank you for standing up for me, my chilese brother. the blood runs deep in your veins.

wenshu

12-08-2012, 10:47 AM

Why'd they go on Hajj?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx1_bampCBQ

bawang

12-08-2012, 10:48 AM

Why'd they go on Hajj?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx1_bampCBQ

is that a rhetorical question

wenshu

12-08-2012, 10:51 AM

is that a rhetorical question
sneaky ****er
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg4UIc4KpZo

bawang

12-08-2012, 10:54 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXbDJGVVcJ4

wenshu

12-08-2012, 10:55 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALNF_DCg6VU

Jimbo

12-08-2012, 11:09 AM

thank you for standing up for me, my chilese brother. the blood runs deep in your veins.

You're welcome...

Though I'm actually Japalese.

:D

bawang

12-08-2012, 11:11 AM

You're welcome...

Though I'm actually Japalese.

:D

its ok. you are still my brother.

friendship knuckle touch

Jimbo

12-08-2012, 11:17 AM

Try calling a Central/South american 'Mexican'.

Very true.
Though it won't happen with me, because what people are racially/nationality-wise isn't as important to me as WHO they are, so I'd never assume so much to do that. And it has nothing to do with political correctness, but my own experiences.

Jimbo

12-08-2012, 11:23 AM

its ok. you are still my brother.

friendship knuckle touch

Knuckle touch, bro.

pazman

12-08-2012, 12:05 PM

Wow. Seems I caused a stir with Bawang. Very informative.

Faruq made a comment earlier about only minorities being able to understand these things. Very true. White privilege is a very real thing in the US (and many other countries), and its not noticed until its taken away when they move to a foreign country. Even then, its not comparable to what black people experience in the US.

I'm having a hard time understanding why its more disrespectful to tell a fellow American about the reality of living in China, than it is for a Chinese to tell an American that racism doesn't exist in China, when in fact it does?

BTW, saying that there isn't racism because blacks are welcomed in one city in China is as ridiculous a whites claiming there's no racism in the USA because there are black neighborhoods and plenty of rap superstars.

Since we're in the realm of anecdotal evidence already, I'll relate an experience. When I lived in Wuhan, an acquaintance of mine from years ago emailed me about teaching in China. He had a Masters degree in Linguistics, a TEFL certificate, and year's teaching experience. Clearly qualified, much more than 95% of the English teachers in China. He sent his resume to me and I sent it to a few training schools and university. He got almost instant replies from all of them. In China, when you apply for a job, you must also submit a portrait photo. Once the photo was sent, all but one rejected him. I inquired about this, and the reply from the schools was either "No blacks" or "no longer suitable." Would it have been disrespectful to him to tell him the truth?

YouKnowWho

12-08-2012, 01:45 PM

a Chinese to tell an American that racism doesn't exist in China,

I'm a Chinese and I tell you that racism does exist in China.

When my teacher was young, he went to Mongolia to test his wrestling skill. He told me that the way those mongolian looked at him could kill him.

Around 1985, there was a Chinese guy messed around with a Mongolian girl. Those Mongolian guys tied him on a tree and took his eye balls out.

I took my wife to China and walked on the street. Two guys behind us had the following conversation. Such conversation could never happen in any other part of the world.

A: What's the situation here?
B: He must be her tour guy.
A: Why is he holding that white girl's hand?
B: He must be her male prostitute.

Faruq

12-08-2012, 02:03 PM

no one wants to be the worst. no one wants to be the bad guy. no one wants to be the devil. but you have no control over the actions of your forefathers, and you are enjoying the fruits of their labor, and that shapes what describes and labels you today.

%^#@, Weezy! Finally, someone who says it like it is! You ever thought about joining the 5 Percent Nation? I could put in a good word for you, brotha.

Faruq

12-08-2012, 02:27 PM

i see through the crust on the screen like how the honorable elijah muhammad was able to see past the crust of american society.

But it took an Asian, Master Fard Mohammad, to teach him this. Preach on, Deacon Bawang! Preach on, Deacon!

Faruq

12-08-2012, 02:45 PM

you right, bro. friendship knuckle touch. can i have ur facebook?

the eyeball of tibetan children are said to have aphrodesiac properties. we chinese enjoy oppressing and feasting on the sorrows of barbarians. their souls nourish us and extends our unnatural long life, sustaining us for eons.

*strokes fu manchu beard

that sounds about equal with what europeans did, right? like when a french mistress sicced her dog to tear apart haitian slaves in a fighting pit, and the dog licked her lips with its bloody tungue?

Fuh show, brotha! It's BruceLeroyMohammad31@hotmail.com. I mean my e-mail is the easiest way to find me on Face book, homey. And as far as your second comment, Julie Delphy really laid into a Frenchman and freaked Ethan Hawke the hell out in a movie over similar sexual indiscretions with underage children in a similar third world country. What was it, "24 hours in Paris" or something. That kind of thing happens all over the third world now by Europeans on vacation and Western foreign aid workers. Sex for aid/food with third world people, minors and those of age, that is.

Faruq

12-08-2012, 02:53 PM

Stop fantasizing.

Prison culture is too segregated for that to be a valid point. In fact animosity between Blacks and Hispanics within prison is far worse than between whites. That has more to do with the power politics of prison gang culture.

In any case, what's more likely, resentment born of the historical wounds in a theoretical subconscious collective racial memory? Or resentment from the current state of affairs of institutionalized racism within the criminal justice system and American society itself?

Wow, now it's getting too deep for me. I'm bowing out! Deuces, y'all....

wiz cool c

12-08-2012, 03:13 PM

can we change the subject to something lighter. like how many asian chicks have you banged?

wiz cool c

12-08-2012, 03:43 PM

suddenly it get quiet in here. come on you guys are always commenting on something you have no experience in. why should this be any different?

wenshu

12-08-2012, 04:20 PM

shut up extrachars

Syn7

12-08-2012, 06:32 PM

i am indotrinated. to the teachings of malcolm x and khalid muhammad. (srs)

no, its my experience from living among black people and hearing the thoughts and experience of my black friends. and seeing first hand what they endure every day.

yes, i know that it is happening right now.

then do you understand that if a turk insults me, it doesnt ilicit the same emotions when a turk insults you? so when faruq goes to china, the prejudice he meets will not be the same as he experiences in america, and its disrepectful for pazman to warn him of racism.

Come on man, you can just say it outright. You wish you were black coz it would get you more ***** and then you can even be more qualified to belong to hiphops ******* children, the thug rappers. :p

bawang

12-08-2012, 07:19 PM

Come on man, you can just say it outright. You wish you were black coz it would get you more ***** and then you can even be more qualified to belong to hiphops ******* children, the thug rappers. :p

i wish i were black because it would get me more poosy and then i can even be qualified to belong to hiphops bastrad children, the thug rappers.

can we change the subject to something lighter. like how many asian chicks have you banged?

tell your teacher that.

Kellen Bassette

12-08-2012, 08:38 PM

racism in china is not as bad because the chinese did not participate in the transatlantic slave trade.

when a minority calls another minority a name, we feel nothing. when a white person calls you a name, it carries power. it resonates like a gunshot. some people get so enraged they dont eat and sleep. its that powerful.

We are truly the most powerful of the Mouth Boxers.

Syn7

12-08-2012, 09:01 PM

i wish i were black because it would get me more poosy and then i can even be qualified to belong to hiphops bastrad children, the thug rappers.

We can start a crew! Get poosy and slap people with our peenuses while bumpin AMG!

Kellen Bassette

12-08-2012, 09:04 PM

african china relationships both on personal and international level is at an all time high. theres 100 thousands africans in one city alone. china is giving billions of dollars and building infrastructure in africa.

Not to change the direction of the conversation, but I can't let this go unaddressed...

Seriously??? The Chinese are helping with African infrastructure because they are buying out the rights to Africa's farmland and securing leases for the development of mineral extraction. Oh, and they want in on the oil.

The Chinese are raping and pillaging the resources of Africa in the same manner as the USA and the rest of the West. That's what it's all about. China needs the mineral resources. China knows it's not going to be able to sustain it's population in the face of advancing desertification from decades of irresponsible farming practices.

What do you think the Green Wall of China is about? They aren't stupid. They see the writing on the wall and they're getting their fingers in the African pie and dividing it up with the West.

Africa's inability to govern itself efficiently and unwillingness to end the rampant corruption has insured that it will be plundered by the rich countries. So they can blame themselves as well.

Yes I know the USA is the worst offender for modern imperialism and stealing resources, but China is using the same play book.

Let's not forget they will be the world's largest economy within the next decade. Let's not pretend they aren't positioning themselves as the next super power and securing the supply of oil, food and minerals for themselves, before there's not enough to go around. Let's not act like Chinese currency isn't going to be a major player, when they feel it's time.

China isn't some third world backwater, it's the new superpower...equipped with all the evil that comes with the position.

bawang

12-08-2012, 09:10 PM

Not to change the direction of the conversation, but I can't let this go unaddressed...

Seriously??? The Chinese are helping with African infrastructure because they are buying out the rights to Africa's farmland and securing leases for the development of mineral extraction. Oh, and they want in on the oil.

The Chinese are raping and pillaging the resources of Africa in the same manner as the USA and the rest of the West. That's what it's all about. China needs the mineral resources. China knows it's not going to be able to sustain it's population in the face of advancing desertification from decades of irresponsible farming practices.

What do you think the Green Wall of China is about? They aren't stupid. They see the writing on the wall and they're getting their fingers in the African pie and dividing it up with the West.

Africa's inability to govern itself efficiently and unwillingness to end the rampant corruption has insured that it will be plundered by the rich countries. So they can blame themselves as well.

Yes I know the USA is the worst offender for modern imperialism and stealing resources, but China is using the same play book.

Let's not forget they will be the world's largest economy within the next decade. Let's not pretend they aren't positioning themselves as the next super power and securing the supply of oil, food and minerals for themselves, before there's not enough to go around. Let's not act like Chinese currency isn't going to be a major player, when they feel it's time.

China isn't some third world backwater, it's the new superpower...equipped with all the evil that comes with the position.

no you are mistaken. china is making magical friendship.

we have something western country dont in africa: mutually beneficial trade. this is very magical.

We are truly the most powerful of the Mouth Boxers.

your voice has power like paul muaddib from dune.