Wing chun videos, share please :) [Archive]

Lee Chiang Po

11-26-2012, 07:40 PM

Looks terrible to me (imo) no structure just hand chasing at its best

JIm

That is what Chi Sao is, isn't it. Just hand chasing? In order to bridge and control ones hands you pretty much have to stay close to them, and that probably requires you to chase them now and then. It is a form of hand grappling really, and it is easier to do on someone that has no clue as to what the heck you are doing.

As terrible as it might look, the big question here is, can you whip either one of them?

Samwise85

11-26-2012, 10:59 PM

Chi Sao is intended to develop sensitivity to an opponent's movement in order to dial in reactions. One of the major aspects of Wing Chun is sensing your opponent's energy so that you can deflect or redirect it in order to create the opportunity for a strike. It looks like hand chasing because one participant makes a move and the other moves to counter it. The intent is not to actually strike your opponent but learn how to create and destroy opportunities.

As to whipping either of them, well they wouldn't be using Chi Sao in a real altercation...

jimhalliwell

11-27-2012, 03:28 AM

That is what Chi Sao is, isn't it. Just hand chasing? In order to bridge and control ones hands you pretty much have to stay close to them, and that probably requires you to chase them now and then. It is a form of hand grappling really, and it is easier to do on someone that has no clue as to what the heck you are doing.

As terrible as it might look, the big question here is, can you whip either one of them?

Hi

No imo chi sau is not chasing hands at all! I'm attacking the person not his hands (in training) there's no point looking for someones hands when I can actually exploit his center which in this example of chi sau both their centers are totally open!

With regard to your comment about "can I whip either one of them" with regard to yip ching hes an old man what a crazy question. Regard to sam kwok yes in about 2 seconds if I had to!

jim

ps here is a link to a video showing chi sau and general Ving Tsun in action and as its supposed to be Simple Direct and Efficient! unlike the sam kwok video. Im not a student of Bayer at all just using it as an example of how its supposed to be done keeping it real!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6YVmNnuSIA

chris bougeard

11-27-2012, 05:09 AM

Hi, gotta agree with Jim on this clip.

"Top level", ummmm....

What happened to attack the body not the hands?

Whats with all the "golden palming", using palm as bridge rather than forearm, not a good strategy imo.

No wonder people from different arts look at these kind of clips and shake their heads...

hobbs

11-27-2012, 06:38 AM

Here is one of GM Wan Kam Leung

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM_KgCSMtMM

chris bougeard

11-27-2012, 09:11 AM

jimhalliwell

11-27-2012, 11:03 AM

Wow, the difference between these two clips is like night and day!

Wan Kam Leung is showing nice robust chi sao with good root/structure. I love the fact that it doesnt look "pretty", normally a sign that the guys rolling are just co-operating with no resistance either side. Always enjoy watching his clips.

And he wears braces!

Yes wan kam leung looks as good as ever only one comment really its a pity the guys hes working with have no stance! They are sunk so low that's its impossible to project any forward energy and also its easy for wan kam to pull them around.

jim

hobbs

11-27-2012, 11:50 AM

Mark Hobbs & Joe Koch chi sau, nice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BshKf1-adXw

2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M-u_98Yw4w&feature=relmfu

JPinAZ

11-27-2012, 12:46 PM

Here's an 'interesting' one I stumbled upon today. Going to withhold my comments ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUT3j_LAn3s&feature=related

GlennR

11-27-2012, 02:12 PM

Yes wan kam leung looks as good as ever only one comment really its a pity the guys hes working with have no stance! They are sunk so low that's its impossible to project any forward energy and also its easy for wan kam to pull them around.

jim

Yep, id agree with the stance comment

anerlich

11-27-2012, 07:46 PM

Kgledhill hass posted a ton of vids of Phil Bayer and his students doing competitive chi sao ;)

hobbs

11-27-2012, 10:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Elng5OGubs

jimhalliwell

11-28-2012, 03:20 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Elng5OGubs

Hi

Do you really have to torture me with this soup mixing Chi sau nonsense? What you learn about Ving Tsun from doing chi sau like this I don't know! No wonder mma fighters look at this kind of crap and shake their heads I love Ving Tsun but im shaking my head just the same! People imo need to learn what is actual practical training and what is just a waste of your time and money! don't chase instructors because of their particular lineage go by what you see! and here I see nothing but rubbish!

Jim.

ps this is my opinion and could be mine only?

hobbs

11-28-2012, 03:29 AM

Hi

Do you really have to torture me with this soup mixing Chi sau nonsense? What you learn about Ving Tsun from doing chi sau like this I don't know! No wonder mma fighters look at this kind of crap and shake their heads I love Ving Tsun but im shaking my head just the same! People imo need to learn what is actual practical training and what is just a waste of your time and money! don't chase instructors because of their particular lineage go by what you see! and here I see nothing but rubbish!

Jim.

ps this is my opinion and could be mine only?

It is one thing to look, yet another to feel.

jimhalliwell

11-28-2012, 03:39 AM

It is one thing to look, yet another to feel.

I have felt and have the same opinion.

Jim

chris bougeard

11-28-2012, 06:29 AM

Nice chi sao Mark, nice flow and bringing in clinch/takedown aspects into it.

hobbs

11-28-2012, 08:24 AM

I have felt and have the same opinion.

Jim

So you have felt that type of chi sau.

jimhalliwell

11-28-2012, 08:44 AM

hobbs

11-28-2012, 10:02 AM

Yes I have very early in my Ving tsun research looking into what actually worked best so unlike most people i trained in a lot of lineages including this one before i found out what was best for me. This lineage I found imo to be the most impractical!

Jim

Its good to have a taste of whats out there. I study in this linage and IMO there are benefits to this type of chi sau. Like a tree grows from a seed this leads to a good balanced chi sau where one benefits on both sides. That is not just right side bong sau tan sau but both, where the left side does bong tan sau and u can change sides.

All that said i enjoy it

jimhalliwell

11-28-2012, 10:08 AM

Its good to have a taste of whats out there. I study in this linage and IMO there are benefits to this type of chi sau. Like a tree grows from a seed this leads to a good balanced chi sau where one benefits on both sides. That is not just right side bong sau tan sau but both, where the left side does bong tan sau and u can change sides.

All that said i enjoy it

Thats great like I said its only my opinion.

Cheers Jim

Jox

11-28-2012, 10:52 AM

hobbs

11-28-2012, 11:59 AM

Here is one from Jim Fungs school Sydney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfApla1RiA

Wayfaring

11-28-2012, 02:57 PM

As terrible as it might look, the big question here is, can you whip either one of them?

An even better question is are you putting yourself in a position to be a fight promoter between Internet posters and elderly men?

jimhalliwell

11-29-2012, 02:04 AM

Here is one from Jim Fungs school Sydney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfApla1RiA

Hi

Looks to me better than the Yip Ching/ Sam Kwok stuff!

Jim.

jimhalliwell

11-29-2012, 10:56 AM

Hi

Here is one for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoCn1ZI5t-w

jim

JPinAZ

11-30-2012, 01:26 PM

Hi

Here is one for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoCn1ZI5t-w

jim

No offense, but I hope this isn't you or something you approve of (?) because this is gawd aweful! :eek:

stonecrusher69

11-30-2012, 10:05 PM

Looks terrible to me (imo) no structure just hand chasing at its best

JIm

how can you tell see if someone has structure or not since structure can look like anything or nothing and in some cases can be.

hobbs

12-01-2012, 12:48 AM

Jim Fung school of Sydney demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtHwRrKbHk

jimhalliwell

12-01-2012, 02:40 AM

how can you tell see if someone has structure or not since structure can look like anything or nothing and in some cases can be.

Because imo if the arms ie fixed elbow position is actually non existent this will equal bad structure.

jimhalliwell

12-01-2012, 02:43 AM

No offense, but I hope this isn't you or something you approve of (?) because this is gawd aweful! :eek:

No i dont approve just an example of the threads original video lineage!

Jim

stonecrusher69

12-01-2012, 08:18 AM

Hi hobbs.. Ive see vids from your school. Good stuff . You guys have structure, but my point about structure is it cant be seen but can be felt. Some people think stucture is the way you hold a tan sao a certain way, but its not. Structure can look like anything. Because its noy in the way iy looks.

hobbs

12-01-2012, 11:50 AM

jimhalliwell

12-01-2012, 12:15 PM

Jim Fung school of Sydney demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtHwRrKbHk

Didn't like the knife defense or much of the gate changing going from outside gate to inside gate for no apparent reason than trying to look fast not for me imo. If i had the knife he would be cut to shreds to be honest. Still light years ahead of Sam kwok.

Jim.

k gledhill

12-01-2012, 03:42 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ppo2U0yLco

:confused:

hobbs

12-01-2012, 10:58 PM

Sum Nung wing chun chi sau

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-gKGR08MgM

jimhalliwell

12-02-2012, 05:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ppo2U0yLco

:confused:

kev for gods sake!

here you go some proper ving tsun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr59XqhFgr4

jim

hobbs

12-02-2012, 06:29 AM

kev for gods sake!

here you go some proper ving tsun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr59XqhFgr4

jim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTyDb-FTBVg

hobbs

12-02-2012, 11:09 AM

kev for gods sake!

here you go some proper ving tsun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr59XqhFgr4

jim

Bruce lee playing table tennis, got to check this out. This was filmed before special effects & is the real deal so they say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SncapPrTusA

LoneTiger108

12-03-2012, 02:21 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ppo2U0yLco

:confused:

[kev for gods sake!

here you go some proper ving tsun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr59XqhFgr4

jim

You guys do make me laugh :D

You do know and understand that Wing Chun as a system in itself actually existed BEFORE IP Man don't you??

I know he had a great impact on how us westerners train, but I have an appreciation for most things pre-1970's too and the Vietnam/Malayasian/Singapore schools all have this flavour... different but never wrong IMHO

jimhalliwell

12-03-2012, 03:19 AM

You guys do make me laugh :D

You do know and understand that Wing Chun as a system in itself actually existed BEFORE IP Man don't you??

I know he had a great impact on how us westerners train, but I have an appreciation for most things pre-1970's too and the Vietnam/Malayasian/Singapore schools all have this flavour... different but never wrong IMHO

I tend to base training on use and being of practical use! or i dont do it.

Jim

GlennR

12-03-2012, 03:30 AM

I tend to base training on use and being of practical use! or i dont do it.

Jim

Practical in what context??

jimhalliwell

12-03-2012, 04:05 AM

Practical in what context??

Well for example if im doing some kind of hand drill lets say chi sau my hands are always trying to control my partners centre and look for openings to attack all the time. Some of the examples above are just rolling round and mixing soup! Now before you jump on me I know chi sau is not fighting but it is the bridge between forms and fighting and to gain sensitivity in a practical way rather than creating rounded movements when linear ones are far more efficient.

Jim.

LoneTiger108

12-03-2012, 09:49 AM

I tend to base training on use and being of practical use! or i dont do it.

Jim

So is this comment suggesting that you haven't had any experience of Vietnam-type Wing Chun, and so you have not been taught why the 'exercises' they are practising ARE of practical use??

Or are you simply dismissing it for the 'look' rather than the 'feel'??

Now I appreciate the evolutions Ip Man made to a pretty 'old fashioned' system but to be so dismissive with no practical experience of what you are looking at makes no sense to me... but no biggie, you sound like you train hard and train well for what you want so respects to ya

JPinAZ

12-03-2012, 01:42 PM

Here is one from Jim Fungs school Sydney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfApla1RiA

To be frank, this is pretty much a demo of everthing you shouldn't do in WC. And the knife defenses were aweful. I hope he's not charging $$ for this stuff.

hobbs

12-04-2012, 12:09 AM

Pan Nam chi sau very interesting

1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDQ90e1XBLM

2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7InujHDTNA

3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp65CK7RnFY

wingchunIan

12-04-2012, 01:53 AM

Jim Fung school of Sydney demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtHwRrKbHk

hilarious, one of the best laughs I've had in ages

LoneTiger108

12-04-2012, 02:28 AM

hilarious, one of the best laughs I've had in ages

I didn't find it funny I found it a little concerning :( I also think you have to consider that we (UK peeps) have had access to decent Wing Chun for over 40 years, and the earlier guys like Sifu Lau and even Sifu Tang were of a mainland flavour. Mix that in with some serious Ip Man knowledge and you have some pretty effective, practical no-nonsense interactive drills that other countries simply haven't even seen before. Well, not from the evidence I have seen anyway! Very basic stuff that is in need of an upgrade IMHHHHHO

As for the Pan Nam stuff, if you know your Wing Chun you will know what the guys were doing, just as in the Vietnamese clip. Problem is, not enough people know their Chun!!! Okay stuff with it's own purpose fme

jimhalliwell

12-04-2012, 04:14 AM

I didn't find it funny I found it a little concerning :( I also think you have to consider that we (UK peeps) have had access to decent Wing Chun for over 40 years, and the earlier guys like Sifu Lau and even Sifu Tang were of a mainland flavour. Mix that in with some serious Ip Man knowledge and you have some pretty effective, practical no-nonsense interactive drills that other countries simply haven't even seen before. Well, not from the evidence I have seen anyway! Very basic stuff that is in need of an upgrade IMHHHHHO

As for the Pan Nam stuff, if you know your Wing Chun you will know what the guys were doing, just as in the Vietnamese clip. Problem is, not enough people know their Chun!!! Okay stuff with it's own purpose fme

Hi what i find funny is that you have had access to good wing chun in the uk bar a very few exceptions your wrong! or the standard has got worse!

Jim

LoneTiger108

12-04-2012, 04:29 AM

Hi what i find funny is that you have had access to good wing chun in the uk bar a very few exceptions your wrong! or the standard has got worse!

Jim

I have no doubt that the 'public' standard has got worse or dwindled due to the average martial artist these days mixing things up like a chop suey meal, re-branding and selling the mashed up meal to anyone who will pay! But if you take Youtube to be the be-all-and-end-all of Wing Chun you are missing my point... many very very decent guys are here who do not promote themselves in that way at all.

I was only highlighting that we have a few lineages that have been here for years that have direct first hand influence from some of the mainland training because that is where they were from.

But wrong? What am I wrong about exactly Jim?

jimhalliwell

12-04-2012, 07:13 AM

I have no doubt that the 'public' standard has got worse or dwindled due to the average martial artist these days mixing things up like a chop suey meal, re-branding and selling the mashed up meal to anyone who will pay! But if you take Youtube to be the be-all-and-end-all of Wing Chun you are missing my point... many very very decent guys are here who do not promote themselves in that way at all.

I was only highlighting that we have a few lineages that have been here for years that have direct first hand influence from some of the mainland training because that is where they were from.

But wrong? What am I wrong about exactly Jim?

No your are correct there are some good guys its a shame i can only count the numbers of good Ving Tsun/Wing Chun guys on one hand.

Jim.

LoneTiger108

12-04-2012, 08:19 AM

No your are correct there are some good guys its a shame i can only count the numbers of good Ving Tsun/Wing Chun guys on one hand.

Jim.

Ah! I see your point and agree :)

I consider myself very lucky to have met some of the eldest guys in the UK and they all keep themselves to themselves. Trained with a few diamonds too but I still consider myself to be very young in comparison

nasmedicine

12-04-2012, 05:52 PM

anerlich

12-04-2012, 08:33 PM

To be frank, this is pretty much a demo of everthing you shouldn't do in WC. And the knife defenses were aweful. I hope he's not charging $$ for this stuff.

?

Didn't see no knife defense in that vid.

I know one of Jim Fung's seniors. He's pretty good, and is also a pretty capable BJJ brown belt.

GlennR

12-04-2012, 09:09 PM

Well for example if im doing some kind of hand drill lets say chi sau my hands are always trying to control my partners centre and look for openings to attack all the time. Some of the examples above are just rolling round and mixing soup! Now before you jump on me I know chi sau is not fighting but it is the bridge between forms and fighting and to gain sensitivity in a practical way rather than creating rounded movements when linear ones are far more efficient.

Jim.

But what defines efficiency in fight?

If someone has a different take on you to what chi-saio is, and uses that point of difference to be an effective fighter, then why is your style "more efficient"?

hobbs

12-04-2012, 10:11 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DytFtMqYV2U

mun hung

12-04-2012, 10:30 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DytFtMqYV2U

Tom Hanks raises hand in "Big."

LoneTiger108

12-05-2012, 03:56 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DytFtMqYV2U

Just from looking at the first seconds of this clip I understand what they are doing, and am also aware that there are many many Wing Chun schools that probably never do anything like this. But I would ask everyone to look at what is being practised and tell me if they think that is chisau??

Because for me, and it's no disrespect to anyone elses ideas, this is not chisau training. I refer to this 'pressure testing' type platform as an interactive Looksau (some call Luksau and other mainland families may use the term 'kiusau' practise) which basically translates as Rotating Arm. A very particular Ip Man pracise fme and something only his older students seemed to have grasped, albeit all have slight differences.

This is also a practise that is less familiar in the mainland, but I see that Sifu Mark Hobbs uses this method and he is a student of GM Lun Gai (an earlier Ip Man Foshan student) which implies that it was taught in the earlier days too and not a HK modification (as some may think)

Nice clip :)

jimhalliwell

12-05-2012, 09:53 AM

Just from looking at the first seconds of this clip I understand what they are doing, and am also aware that there are many many Wing Chun schools that probably never do anything like this. But I would ask everyone to look at what is being practised and tell me if they think that is chisau??

Because for me, and it's no disrespect to anyone elses ideas, this is not chisau training. I refer to this 'pressure testing' type platform as an interactive Looksau (some call Luksau and other mainland families may use the term 'kiusau' practise) which basically translates as Rotating Arm. A very particular Ip Man pracise fme and something only his older students seemed to have grasped, albeit all have slight differences.

This is also a practise that is less familiar in the mainland, but I see that Sifu Mark Hobbs uses this method and he is a student of GM Lun Gai (an earlier Ip Man Foshan student) which implies that it was taught in the earlier days too and not a HK modification (as some may think)

Nice clip :)

Nice Clip

but means actual nothing no use to man or beast! some guy pulling and pushing a guy with no stance at all! great skill lmoa.

Jim

LoneTiger108

12-05-2012, 10:08 AM

Nice Clip

but means actual nothing no use to man or beast! some guy pulling and pushing a guy with no stance at all! great skill lmoa.

Jim

Did I say anyone there had 'great skill'?? No. This is basic stuff but it's from a very advanced idea specifically for Wing Chun students to use as a 'training tool'. Actually if you really want to get into it, it's specifically designed for the Sifu to use to pass on the knowledge of entry and sansau techniques! Not for student-to-student practise at all.

I don't think I have ever said that it will help anyone fight either, but can see where you're coming from. But FWIW it will help and does help those who make the fight theirs and use what tools and methods they have drilled against people that may be unfamiliar with such an approach...

Just an idea but have you got a clip of yourself training some Wing Chun?

jimhalliwell

12-05-2012, 10:43 AM

Actually if you really want to get into it, it's specifically designed for the Sifu to use to pass on the knowledge of entry and sansau techniques! Not for student-to-student practise at all.

Ah secret techniques eh you've bought into that one have you? This guy looks like his centre is wide open infact totally open and would be easy to hit!! and with that structure would have a job entering a doorway never mind someone with a defence.

Jim

JPinAZ

12-05-2012, 11:45 AM

?

Didn't see no knife defense in that vid.

I know one of Jim Fung's seniors. He's pretty good, and is also a pretty capable BJJ brown belt.

My bad, somehow I quoted the wrong clip :o.
But now looking back at the one I did quote, I'd say it is pretty bad too. All of that walking around, chasing hands steering wheel chi sau stuff with no fwd energy has little to do with WC (IMO anyway, for what that's worth).

The first clip I misquoted for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfApla1RiA
------------------

Here is the one I should have quoted and was replying to, and my original thoughts of "To be frank, this is pretty much a demo of everthing you shouldn't do in WC. And the knife defenses were aweful. I hope he's not charging $$ for this stuff." still stand:

Jim Fung school of Sydney demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtHwRrKbHk

Do you think these are good knife defenses? :)

I'm sure every school has a guy or two that's 'good', even if what they are teaching isn't. And I believe you when you say one of Fung's seniors is good. But that has nothing to do with the 'quality'/fantasy stuff that is being shown/taught in these 2 clips, regardless if one of their sihing/sibak are good or practices BJJ.

GlennR

12-05-2012, 01:40 PM

Nice Clip

but means actual nothing no use to man or beast! some guy pulling and pushing a guy with no stance at all! great skill lmoa.

Jim

Jim
Whilst i havent trained with the guys in that clip, i train with (when i stray back to WC) a senior to those chaps.
As i mentioned in my previous post to you (did you not see it?) my take on the differences between the lineages/styles is HOW they want to achieve victory in a fight, ergo, the different take on chi-sao

Its a bit like comparing different styles of boxing, all the same techniques are there, just applied a bit differently.

FWIW, those guys are from TST line and when it comes to stucture and stance, ive found the good ones to be the best ive experienced.
And , yes, ive trained plenty with the other lineages as well (and that includes your lot as well )

Actually, if you look at what they are doing it looks a bit like Alan Orrs stuff as well.

GlennR

12-05-2012, 01:44 PM

Did I say anyone there had 'great skill'?? No. This is basic stuff but it's from a very advanced idea specifically for Wing Chun students to use as a 'training tool'. Actually if you really want to get into it, it's specifically designed for the Sifu to use to pass on the knowledge of entry and sansau techniques! Not for student-to-student practise at all.

Its control of the centre of gravity he's after, thats he's after

I don't think I have ever said that it will help anyone fight either, but can see where you're coming from. But FWIW it will help and does help those who make the fight theirs and use what tools and methods they have drilled against people that may be unfamiliar with such an approach...

Bingo Spencer!! It's THEIR take on WC

Just an idea but have you got a clip of yourself training some Wing Chun?

Youre quite the voyeur arent you ;)

hobbs

12-05-2012, 08:48 PM

My bad, somehow I quoted the wrong clip :o.
But now looking back at the one I did quote, I'd say it is pretty bad too. All of that walking around, chasing hands steering wheel chi sau stuff with no fwd energy has little to do with WC (IMO anyway, for what that's worth).

The first clip I misquoted for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgfApla1RiA
------------------

Here is the one I should have quoted and was replying to, and my original thoughts of "To be frank, this is pretty much a demo of everthing you shouldn't do in WC. And the knife defenses were aweful. I hope he's not charging $$ for this stuff." still stand:

Do you think these are good knife defenses? :)

I'm sure every school has a guy or two that's 'good', even if what they are teaching isn't. And I believe you when you say one of Fung's seniors is good. But that has nothing to do with the 'quality'/fantasy stuff that is being shown/taught in these 2 clips, regardless if one of their sihing/sibak are good or practices BJJ.

I am not a part of GM Jim Fungs school. That was one video they have heaps. I have trained under one of their boys. There are good and bad practitioners in every school and lineage. Depends on the person. I want this thread to be a video thread. Do you have a video?

k gledhill

12-05-2012, 10:19 PM

http://youtu.be/DKxmLdUk4lE laap sao drill

jimhalliwell

12-06-2012, 05:40 AM

Jim
Whilst i havent trained with the guys in that clip, i train with (when i stray back to WC) a senior to those chaps.
As i mentioned in my previous post to you (did you not see it?) my take on the differences between the lineages/styles is HOW they want to achieve victory in a fight, ergo, the different take on chi-sao

Its a bit like comparing different styles of boxing, all the same techniques are there, just applied a bit differently.

FWIW, those guys are from TST line and when it comes to stucture and stance, ive found the good ones to be the best ive experienced.
And , yes, ive trained plenty with the other lineages as well (and that includes your lot as well )

Actually, if you look at what they are doing it looks a bit like Alan Orrs stuff as well.

Hi Glenn

Im not taking a pop at them but for me most of the vids posted these days on youtube are a very poor rendition of Wing Chun training and for me just don't seem to follow the first principle of being Simple direct and Efficient at all! and I have noticed that over my last 30 years of training that the standard has of wc has dropped its turned into a game of had chasing on the premise that this will build sensitivity etc so that's why we do it. Now it was a while ago but i think the first vid that was posted on this thread was of Yip ching and Sam kwok two fine examples imo of how not to do Wing Chun (chi sau) at all. Wing Chun is a fighting system and it needs drills to help with this for example bayer vids on chi sau etc.All his actions seem to me Direct Simple and efficient! now if i can see good in his approach i can see bad in others.

Jim.

jimhalliwell

12-06-2012, 05:45 AM

http://youtu.be/DKxmLdUk4lE laap sao drill

Now i like this one we have actually found one lol
one comment hes wearing tape on his fingers because pb does?
if he is that's sad.One question as the guys attacks (guy with tape) why the sideways movements from time to time before he attacks? this when facing an opponent makes you very narrow and vulnerable to attack.

Jim.

k gledhill

12-06-2012, 06:51 AM

Now i like this one we have actually found one lol
one comment hes wearing tape on his fingers because pb does?
if he is that's sad.One question as the guys attacks (guy with tape) why the sideways movements from time to time before he attacks? this when facing an opponent makes you very narrow and vulnerable to attack.

Jim.

A lot of guys wear tape to avoid finger dislocation from intercepting directly with another doing same. I coach beginners heavily in curling thumbs and holding fingers together like a dagger. OR he already injured his fingers and is avoiding, etc...

The movement is for drilling the student to cut him off, not run after him. The tape guy ( Akis ) counters errors as the student refaces with open gates ( inside/outside ).

jimhalliwell

12-06-2012, 07:26 AM

A lot of guys wear tape to avoid finger dislocation from intercepting directly with another doing same. I coach beginners heavily in curling thumbs and holding fingers together like a dagger. OR he already injured his fingers and is avoiding, etc...

The movement is for drilling the student to cut him off, not run after him. The tape guy ( Akis ) counters errors as the student refaces with open gates ( inside/outside ).

Hi

yes got it after looking again for me when facing an opponent lets say square on i never narrow my structure but yes its for training.

ta

Jim

k gledhill

12-06-2012, 07:38 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrX_FXlOym8 WSL lineage.

k gledhill

12-06-2012, 07:42 AM

Hi

yes got it after looking again for me when facing an opponent lets say square on i never narrow my structure but yes its for training.

ta

Jim

We have a lot of angling and movement in our fighting ideas.

JPinAZ

12-06-2012, 09:03 AM

I am not a part of GM Jim Fungs school. That was one video they have heaps. I have trained under one of their boys. There are good and bad practitioners in every school and lineage. Depends on the person.

Ok.

I want this thread to be a video thread. Do you have a video?

Um, there are videos on this thread and I was commenting on them. Was I not supposed to? And, I did share a link (not mine), so I don't see the problem.
Maybe you could just list out your entire ruleset for 'your thread' before-hand if you feel some of us are not playing fair :rolleyes:

jimhalliwell

12-06-2012, 10:00 AM

We have a lot of angling and movement in our fighting ideas.

I think everybody does however in lap sau even though we are turned we are lets say close to square with each other (i know we are turned) if you're opponent suddenly moved sideways (just sideways! not forward or back) by a few inches they would not be able to present as stronger structure, they loose their width so to speak and would be hit.Thats why i don't like sideways movement for the sake of it.

Cheers Jim.

ps I'll do a video then you can pull it apart.

k gledhill

12-06-2012, 11:37 AM

I think everybody does however in lap sau even though we are turned we are lets say close to square with each other (i know we are turned) if you're opponent suddenly moved sideways (just sideways! not forward or back) by a few inches they would not be able to present as stronger structure, they loose their width so to speak and would be hit.Thats why i don't like sideways movement for the sake of it.

Cheers Jim.

ps I'll do a video then you can pull it apart.

They could escape, slip as a boxer, fall, so we treat it as cutting them off regardless.

GlennR

12-06-2012, 01:47 PM

Hi Glenn

Im not taking a pop at them but for me most of the vids posted these days on youtube are a very poor rendition of Wing Chun training and for me just don't seem to follow the first principle of being Simple direct and Efficient at all! and I have noticed that over my last 30 years of training that the standard has of wc has dropped its turned into a game of had chasing on the premise that this will build sensitivity etc so that's why we do it. Now it was a while ago but i think the first vid that was posted on this thread was of Yip ching and Sam kwok two fine examples imo of how not to do Wing Chun (chi sau) at all. Wing Chun is a fighting system and it needs drills to help with this for example bayer vids on chi sau etc.All his actions seem to me Direct Simple and efficient! now if i can see good in his approach i can see bad in others.

Jim.

Fair enough Jim, and FWIW im not a fan of that sam kwok clip either.

My one concern with some of the WC i see is that its almost too simple or perhaps one dimensional. All the eggs in one basket so to say

I look at the PB clips and sure, he is obviously very skilled, but that is against his own chaps who are trying to replicate what he is teaching.

My own experience with the WSL guys i did some training with was that they were easy to flank as they seemed , IMO, slightly over focused on the centre line.

So, yes, i think the system is very good, but there is different takes on it (WC)that might not seem so "efficient" so to speak but are still just as effective.

That make sense?

Vajramusti

12-06-2012, 06:07 PM

[QUOTE=GlennR;1200367]Fair enough Jim, and FWIW im not a fan of that sam kwok clip either.

My one concern with some of the WC i see is that its almost too simple or perhaps one dimensional. All the eggs in one basket so to say

I look at the PB clips and sure, he is obviously very skilled, but that is against his own chaps who are trying to replicate what he is teaching.

My own experience with the WSL guys i did some training with was that they were easy to flank as they seemed , IMO, slightly over focused on the centre line.

So, yes, i think the system is very good, but there is different takes on it (WC)that might not seem so "efficient" so to speak but are still just as effective.

That make sense?[/QUOTE--------------------------

--------------------------------------------------
Hi Glenn- your comments apply to lots of wc but there are often problems of over generalization
when talking about what wc-ers do. Some good wc-ers I know are not easily flanked. Some wc=ers may have a limited understanding of the center line. Some wc-ers just try to replicate what they saw their teacher do without having a good handle on concepts involved.

anerlich

12-06-2012, 07:57 PM

I'm not taking a pop at them

Well, actually you were.

Video IMO is pretty worthless for trying to promote TCMA. Everyone wants to find some flaw with which to pull them apart.

Alan Orr's vids IMO are among the best and they still get a pasting.

It seems that reall good WC is impossible to capture on video. Hopefully not because it doesn't exist anywhere.

Ali. R

12-08-2012, 04:51 PM

On the opening of this clip, the younger guy; new student (36) thought he could touch Peter’s chest (55) using a one two without being countered. Pete is my favorite student and best friend; we’re together about 5 times a week. This clip features another favorite student also, ‘Marcus’.

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

k gledhill

12-08-2012, 05:10 PM

Ali. R

12-08-2012, 05:20 PM

@2:00 the two guys arent even doing bong sao ? no energy exchange ? whats the idea being developed ?

The energy is there (you would have to feel it), I had to modify my bong because his fook was so high. In some instants over my head and he was told to hit me; and I was not about to let that happen, unless I wanted him too. I’m sorry, had to do what I had to do. But next time I’ll keep it the way you like.

Take care,

k gledhill

12-08-2012, 05:23 PM

The energy is there (you would have to feel it), I had to modify my bong because his fook was so high. In some instants over my head and he was told to hit me; and I was not about to let that happen, unless I wanted him too. I’m sorry, had to do what I had to do. But next time I’ll keep it the way you like.

Take care,

No @ 2:00 your not doing bong either and the guys smaller than you....?

Ali. R

12-08-2012, 05:32 PM

Ali. R

12-08-2012, 05:58 PM

His ‘fook’ was so high, and I just refuse to raise my shoulders to make that bong; cutting my center of gravity in half; my stance is more Important (to me).

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

Again, I am sorry.

k gledhill

12-08-2012, 06:07 PM

LFJ

12-09-2012, 09:25 PM

His ‘fook’ was so high, and I just refuse to raise my shoulders to make that bong; cutting my center of gravity in half; my stance is more Important (to me).

Do you mean high over your arm? That would be more reason to make a complete bong-sau. If he had any energy in his fuk-sau it would easily collapse whatever half-structure you made there and turned into a strike. But why would you ever need to raise your shoulder to make bong-sau?

Ali. R

12-09-2012, 09:41 PM

I’m not really good at all, I’m afraid of my own shadow and don’t go outside much, but I thank you for the help.:)

And I don't have a clue on what I'm doing at all.

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

LFJ

12-09-2012, 10:22 PM

O...k... :)

wingchunIan

12-10-2012, 01:29 AM

Again,

The energy is there (you would have to feel it), I had to modify my bong because his ‘fook’ was so high. In some instants over my head and he was told to hit me; and I was not about to let that happen, unless I wanted him too. I’m sorry, had to do what I had to do. But next time I’ll keep it the way you like.

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

That’s all I can give you is the truth. I messed up real bad and have very limited skills, but I won’t stop trying.

Take care,

Watching the clip at 2 mins which is the spot KG originally critiqued, the small guy's fook sao is nowhere near head height of either player and if he was genuinely trying to hit you then his school report should read "must try harder"

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 07:42 AM

Watching the clip at 2 mins which is the spot KG originally critiqued, the small guy's fook sao is nowhere near head height of either player and if he was genuinely trying to hit you then his school report should read "must try harder"

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

Thank you for your wisdom, but I’d edit that out when his fook was going over my head, and it seems that when I play chi sao with student/opponents that are intent to hit me and nothing more, they just don’t want to hold structure because they can’t get pass my defense; so they try to keep their hands in front of my face (some/not all).. But when just rolling, they keep structure.

But if that bong didn’t have any energy, I don’t know how I defended/redirect his attacks on that side of my body? And I see other system that uses that kind of bong as well. I only use it when someone is deviating to adjust my structure to keep and maintain my sensitive. It’s very hard to see my energy because I was trained not to tighten up, but to set my structure to reroute the energy within my stance.

Just like that tournament clip, I had to do the same with my bong as well and the outcome was a KO without him even feeling my attacks coming, because I never got tight/stiff by trying to hold a perfect bong structure against his bad structure, I didn’t have time for that; because I knew he wanted to hit me back just as hard as I was hitting him. He was literally carried out with his toes dragging the floor and all.

If they deviate from structure I’ll always find another way to keep from being tight, because if I hold that structure (bong) vs. bad structure, it would be too much pressure on my good structure then tension would set in. I thank you all for your help and I learned a lot and will not forget to try harder.

Take care,

k gledhill

12-10-2012, 08:13 AM

Ed Shavga and Kamyl some WSL PB VT poon sao, seung ma toi ma, chi-sao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FxBXCdtlrg&feature=share&list=UUqvSnFiHYJY3AdOT2CFZrFQ

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 09:28 AM

Ed Shavga and Kamyl some WSL PB VT poon sao, seung ma toi ma, chi-sao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FxBXCdtlrg&feature=share&list=UUqvSnFiHYJY3AdOT2CFZrFQ

Oh I see now, it’s just two deferent wing chun family ideas. I was taught never to push forward like that (tension) but to reroute energy to the floor, then counter. My teacher taught/talked about and stressed defense/counterattacking through softness; in phoon sao/chi sao. He use to say; “anyone can throw a good punch, but can one stop a strike when it really counts".

The harder one pushes me the stronger my stance become, because I’m rerouting their energy through my stance and into the floor through sensitive of my upper extremities, which makes my opponent fall or walk right into my counterattack/punches, because I always catch them fully over committing to something they can't run away from.

You can see this @ mark 1:00, but I don’t believe that I’m better than anyone here or that they are doing it wrong, because they don’t play chi sao/phoon sao my way.

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

Just two deferent wing chun families with two deferent ideas, that all. (Leung Shenug/Wong Sheung Leung)

Take care,

k gledhill

12-10-2012, 11:06 AM

Oh I see now, it’s just two deferent wing chun family ideas. I was taught never to push forward like that (tension) but to reroute energy to the floor, then counter. My teacher taught/talked about and stressed defense/counterattacking through softness; in phoon sao/chi sao. He use to say; “anyone can throw a good punch, but can one stop a strike when it really counts".

The harder one pushes me the stronger my stance become, because I’m rerouting their energy through my stance and into the floor through sensitive of my upper extremities, which makes my opponent fall or walk right into my counterattack/punches, because I always catch them fully over committing to something they can't run away from.

You can see this @ mark 1:00, but I don’t believe that I’m better than anyone here or that they are doing it wrong, because they don’t play chi sao/phoon sao my way.

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

Just two deferent wing chun families with two deferent ideas, that all. (Leung Shenug/Wong Sheung Leung)

Take care,

There are varying ideas at work with no stance movement. And then stance movement, seung ma toi ma etc....
You are a little confused and try to stay rooted while turning yourself , a common error from confusion of varying stages / modules of " chi- Sao". Imagine fighting by rooting and turning in one spot ... You lose a primary tool in any fight , moving.

One family , varying levels of comprehension ; )

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 11:25 AM

It’s really not a big deal, I have my ways http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c and you have yours.

Ed Shavga and Kamyl some WSL PB VT poon sao, seung ma toi ma, chi-sao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FxBXCdtlrg&feature=share&list=UUqvSnFiHYJY3AdOT2CFZrFQ

To me all wing chun is good; some can make it work and some can’t, but they will get better as time goes on. I have no problem putting you and your system on a pedestal just to stay civil and respectful.

I truly mean no harm. Please me forgive if you think I’m causing trouble that is not my intension.

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 11:40 AM

I can move my feet very well; look @ mark 1:17 using ‘Sek Mah’ female triangle, which made him fall/walk even more into my punches.

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

k gledhill

12-10-2012, 12:13 PM

I can move my feet very well; look @ mark 1:17 using ‘Sek Mah’ female triangle, which made him fall/walk even more into my punches.

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

Thats boxing footwork and folds under pressure because the hips are open, good for boxing evasion though, I show boxers in my gym the differences. Not the same "line of force" VT fighters develop in the system and ....seung ma ~ toi ma.
ANYWAY ! good luck with your way.

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 12:37 PM

You know, I tried not to have this conversation with you, because I know how you feel about your wing chun compared to others (all beneath you), and you would become hostel and treat me with disrespect over nothing, when it’s not a big deal at all.

When I tried to play it down the moderator deleted my post doing so, forcing me into explaining my position (smart move).

No amount of reasoning would satisfy you, and no; it’s called ‘Sek Mah’ female triangle; any person that trained for a considerable amount of time know this. There’s no one here that would say that I’m wrong but you, and if they do, they will be showing their skill level (poor).

Any person that trained for a considerable amount of time would know this.
Like I said, it’s really not a big deal, I have my ways http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

And you have yours.
Ed Shavga and Kamyl some WSL PB VT poon sao, seung ma toi ma, chi-sao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FxBXCdtlrg&feature=share&list=UUqvSnFiHYJY3AdOT2CFZrFQ

I don’t need luck, just ask the poor guy in that clip.

k gledhill

12-10-2012, 01:37 PM

You know, I tried not to have this conversation with you, because I know how you feel about your wing chun compared to others (all beneath you), and you would become hostel and treat me with disrespect over nothing, when it’s not a big deal at all.

When I tried to play it down the moderator deleted my post doing so, forcing me into explaining my position (smart move).

No amount of reasoning would satisfy you, and no; it’s called ‘Sek Mah’ female triangle; any person that trained for a considerable amount of time know this. There’s no one here that would say that I’m wrong but you, and if they do, they will be showing their skill level (poor).

Any person that trained for a considerable amount of time would know this.
Like I said, it’s really not a big deal, I have my ways http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

And you have yours.

I don’t need luck, just ask the poor guy in that clip.

:) okay, lets move on shall we ...

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 01:57 PM

Correction on that footwork it’s called ‘som got mah’; I’m glad ‘Joy ‘didn’t catch that one. I was just a little thrown off.

http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

Take care,

Jansingsang

12-10-2012, 04:04 PM

You know, I tried not to have this conversation with you, because I know how you feel about your wing chun compared to others (all beneath you), and you would become hostel and treat me with disrespect over nothing, when it’s not a big deal at all.

When I tried to play it down the moderator deleted my post doing so, forcing me into explaining my position (smart move).

No amount of reasoning would satisfy you, and no; it’s called ‘Sek Mah’ female triangle; any person that trained for a considerable amount of time know this. There’s no one here that would say that I’m wrong but you, and if they do, they will be showing their skill level (poor).

Any person that trained for a considerable amount of time would know this.
Like I said, it’s really not a big deal, I have my ways http://youtu.be/cOOxr_SIr6c

And you have yours.

I don’t need luck, just ask the poor guy in that clip.

IT SURE IS A SICK MAH FOR SURE ..... Guess the Truths out Boys :D:rolleyes:

k gledhill

12-10-2012, 04:50 PM

IT SURE IS A SICK MAH FOR SURE ..... Guess the Truths out Boys :D:rolleyes:

I thought that the female triangle was called 'camel toe' ;)

Jansingsang

12-10-2012, 04:58 PM

I thought that was 'camel toe' ;)

"What ever" Toe Keep that well out of harms way mister :eek:

LFJ

12-10-2012, 07:53 PM

I was taught never to push forward like that (tension) but to reroute energy to the floor, then counter.

It's forward energy, which with proper structure sends incoming forces into the ground to load up and strengthen the automatic forward response.

What you describe and demonstrate seems broken and manual vs reflexive. Were you not taught lat sau jik chung?

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 10:45 PM

It's forward energy, which with proper structure sends incoming forces into the ground to load up and strengthen the automatic forward response.

That's what I do, I can reroute energy just from a block, every movement has its cling, sticky and deflecting concepts, and all of my students are members here and they will see this post. When I say, ‘it time for me to shut you down by just use using defense only”, most just walk away soon afterwards.

Just as ‘tai chi’ students can reroute energy from having soft upper extremities to their stances our system holds the same characteristic; I never played/spared with you before, have I?

Could you just make your statement a little interesting and simple like the other guy did; just show us what I don’t know, or do we just have to take your word for it. :rolleyes:

I don’t stay with the same energies after it’s been used, because I could be continually under attack and it would be hard to see the flow of energies, but it clearly can be felt.

Take care,

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 11:19 PM

I'll take that back (sarcastic tone) you may know something I don’t and I would really love to see it demonstrated, please forgive me. Where's my manners?

Forgive me for my rudeness; I’m really working on myself these days.

take care,

Ali. R

12-10-2012, 11:45 PM

I’ll make a clip, of me using ‘jing lik sao’ stopping attacks within their infancies, from a chi sao set and show how I can stop my opponent's intents/attacks before it get started less then an inch of movement ALL WITH GOOD structure .

And thanks for the help.

take care,

LFJ

12-11-2012, 12:00 AM

Just as ‘tai chi’ students can reroute energy from having soft upper extremities to their stances our system holds the same characteristic; I never played/spared with you before, have I?

Nope. Never met. Anyway, the energy in TJQ tuishou is quite different from WCK chi-sau because of lat sau jik chung, which I didn't really see in your clip.

Could you just make your statement a little interesting and simple like the other guy did; just show us what I don’t know, or do we just have to take your word for it. :rolleyes:

Not sure what you mean...

My point is, what you called "tension" in the WSLVT chi-sau is just forward energy but with relaxed muscles. The "tension" you see is the opponent "loading up" the other's arms. As soon as a mistake is made and a hole in the opposing force appears, the loaded arm springs forward into an attack (lat sau jik chung). If it was tensing the muscles, rather than relaxing with forward energy, the effect wouldn't be achieved.

Conversely, what I see in your clip is softness without forward energy, resulting in attacking when and how you want as opposed to based on what you feel, which kind of defeats the purpose of chi-sau training.

"It is your opponent who will teach you how to hit him."

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 12:17 AM

The energy is there why you are saying that if you haven’t felt my hands? I guess I don’t need to make that clip. I like to back my talk up, and don’t just run my mouth when downing other; I thought you had something for us other than an opinion, my sarcasms stands.

take care,

LFJ

12-11-2012, 12:33 AM

The energy is there why you are saying that if you haven’t felt my hands?

Energy itself may not be a visible force, but it manifests in reality, and the effects of it can therefore be seen in how and in which direction the hands move when contact is broken in rolling. I don't need to feel one's hands to see their energy manifest.

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 12:45 AM

LFJ

12-11-2012, 01:10 AM

That's real BS talk. You can't run that crap on me, I'm old school...
...you can’t get away with BS here, not with me away.

What?

They taught physics at the old school I went to.

nobody here believes what your saying, prove me wrong!

No one else but you has commented on what I'm saying so far. Your video is enough. If you don't understand the concepts under discussion and are not interested, that's fine. I'll leave you be.

jimhalliwell

12-11-2012, 06:22 AM

That's real BS talk. You can't run that crap on me, I'm old school.

Man, just put something up showing me what I’m doing wrong, because I don’t think the people here are that shallow to believe your statements on what you’re saying about me, those who really know can see it (energy/jing lik sao) because I can see it in the clip, and I know better than to lie to myself here on this form like you are doing right now; you can’t get away with BS here, not with me away.

Please don’t speak to me anymore, I have no tolerance for foolishness and nobody here believes what your saying, prove me wrong!

Ali

Chill your beans everyone has an opinion you know?

http://www.youtube.com/user/alirahim1?feature=mhee

Attack the breath! listen pal if you think you can get away with this nonsense for real forget it! the guys hangs and waits for you to fly in garb his hands and hit him breath or no breath that's not going to work (fantasy island stuff)

Jim.

jimhalliwell

12-11-2012, 06:32 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XitHgnXz5fs&list=PL74AD0BAD4D62A11A&index=5

what are you doing at 3.03 pushing the guy this way ie downward energy! wing chun punches are upwards therefore he would be uprooted. The stance strength comes from its flexibility to move when required another bs drill containing nothingness! if that's a word lol.

Jim

k gledhill

12-11-2012, 07:07 AM

More chi-sao... The hard working Ed Shavga

http://youtu.be/WrrRv6vg1Js

JPinAZ

12-11-2012, 09:03 AM

Jim/LFJ - this guy isn't here to talk, he's only hear to either be right, or talk down to people. Adding Ali to your ignore list will make the forum so much more peaceful. :)

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 09:20 AM

Jim/LFJ - this guy isn't here to talk, he's only hear to either be right, or talk down to people. Adding Ali to your ignore list will make the forum so much more peaceful. :)

Don’t you have a handy cap person that you need to go beat up?

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 09:24 AM

Ali

Chill your beans everyone has an opinion you know?

http://www.youtube.com/user/alirahim1?feature=mhee

Attack the breath! listen pal if you think you can get away with this nonsense for real forget it! the guys hangs and waits for you to fly in garb his hands and hit him breath or no breath that's not going to work (fantasy island stuff)

Jim.

You’re right everyone do have their own opinion especially those who like to stay hidden.

It works just fine; it’s real nice that you posted that clip. Now show us all @ whatever mark where you think he could have gotten out of the way from that attack, or are you saying he just stood there for the clip, to try and make me look good?

If I catch someone mouth hanging open or nose flaring, I’ll time that right to their grill, and it was a surprise party for him.

Could you point that out for us please, which mark could he have gotten out of the way, anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH2RgRoiQ50

You forgot this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIZNGLVyFk0&list=PL74AD0BAD4D62A11A&index=15

k gledhill

12-11-2012, 09:32 AM

Chi-sao competition, http://youtu.be/bXshDTnTI3A

I met the winner personally and we exchanged ideas.

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 10:11 AM

What?

They taught physics at the old school I went to.

I use physics all the time with geometry. How do you use your physics with wing chun?

http://detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm

wingchunIan

12-11-2012, 10:17 AM

Could you point that out for us please, which mark could he have gotten out of the way, anyone?

take your pick, but my favourites would be either A) hit you on the way in as soon as you begin to move or B) as soon as you contacted the hands with the downwards motion shown in the clip - by simply yeilding and recycling the hands back into your oncoming visage.

Fair play to you for posting clips but I have to agree with Jim on the breathing thing. If the opponent is moving never mind trying to hit you your ability to see when he is breathing is gone. I'm also fully confident that my legs and arms still work whether i'm breathing in or out.

I have used and taught something similar myself over the years for self defence situations when the fight is at verbal stages and you've decided to be pre emptive wait until the opponent goes to speak and as they open their mouth hit them as hard as you can in the jaw but it has nothing to do with breathing and everything to do with mental distraction and the biomechanical vulnerability of the jaw when open.

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 10:38 AM

It’s obvious that you know nothing of the three stages of consequences, which take years to master; it comes from having a lot of fights.

Could you please show the mark where he could have gotten out of the way, and It should have been easier for him to move out the way or hit me, because he knew it was coming, right?

Just show the mark or should we all just believe your lying eyes. (just talk).:rolleyes:

wingchunIan

12-11-2012, 10:57 AM

It’s obvious that you know nothing of the three stages of consequences, which take years to master; it comes from having a lot of fights.
PMSL - literally crying, you are so full of BS, if you actually believe what you are saying its quite sad.

Could you please show the mark where he could have gotten out of the way, and It should have been easier for him to move out the way or hit me, because he knew it was coming, right?
If I can bring myself to suffer your video again I will share the marks but anyone with more than five minutes wing chun training and one good eye can see what I've said for themselves.

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 10:58 AM

This is a very pragmatic concept, I’m not the only one; any good fighter can do this against those who don’t have a clue; like you.:rolleyes:

Just show the mark.

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 11:11 AM

The ‘Samurai’ is thought to have brought this concept out into the open, I did not invent this.

Sihing73

12-11-2012, 04:40 PM

Guys,

Let's all take a breather and relax.

Ali's skill is evident by the video he put up and the fact that he continues to argue over some fairly obvious things.

In the clip at the mark which Kevin points out, Ali is not doing a Bong Sau and the movement looks pretty lazy to me and with no real structure. To argue that one could not do a Bong due to the Fook of the opponent being too high is imo a cop out. The opponent in that clip at that point is shorter than Ali and, as an alternative, perhaps a Lan Sau would have been more appropriate but the movement done, not quite sure what to call it, looked pretty sloppy to me. I would presume that had the opponent been projecting any forward energy Ali would have been hit.

Of course, Ali will argue differently and point out his awesome skill while talking down to everyone who does not agree with him.

I am actually surprised he has not tried to pull the race card yet as that seems to be something often resorted to. As a matter of fact, he made the accusation a few years ago that I was against him due to his race. A few other forum members indicated they did not think that was true. Of course he could have had a point, especially if my ex wife was not Black, and if I did not have four wonderful children who were of mixed ethnicity. Then again, I consider Phil a friend even though he is a Marine and my Pekiti Instructor was both Black and a Muslim.

I deleted the posts wherein he stated he had no skills but upon rethinking perhaps I should just put them back up as that seems to be the only thing he said which seems to make sense..............at least based on the video he presented. ;)

If we were in the playground then I suppose some here would take their toys and go home.

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 07:46 PM

I don’t think I would talk down to anyone if their opinion doesn’t start off with; “you don’t know anything”, rather than just discussing the issues.

But it’s all good Dave, and I thank you for deleting my five or six posts, as I tried to play down the clip. In which I think that got all of this started.

I kinda like it, because all of the negative responses here on this forum only made my profile better, just being here for the past year or so, made my sub count on “youtube’ shoot up like crazy from 150 to 1050 with very good input, and a lot of ads (about $400. A month)…

This is why I love this place; more drama is more cash in hand.

Thanks and take care,

LFJ

12-11-2012, 08:16 PM

I use physics all the time with geometry. How do you use your physics with wing chun?

See if you can recognize any physics in the following:

My point is, what you called "tension" in the WSLVT chi-sau is just forward energy but with relaxed muscles. The "tension" you see is the opponent "loading up" the other's arms. As soon as a mistake is made and a hole in the opposing force appears, the loaded arm springs forward into an attack (lat sau jik chung). If it was tensing the muscles, rather than relaxing with forward energy, the effect wouldn't be achieved.

Conversely, what I see in your clip is softness without forward energy, resulting in attacking when and how you want as opposed to based on what you feel, which kind of defeats the purpose of chi-sau training.

"It is your opponent who will teach you how to hit him."

To this you responded that I can't say there's no forward energy there because I can't feel your hands. So:

Energy itself may not be a visible force, but it manifests in reality, and the effects of it can therefore be seen in how and in which direction the hands move when contact is broken in rolling. I don't need to feel one's hands to see their energy manifest.

And then your feelings got hurt and you blew up trying to run me out for talking "BS".

I don’t think I would talk down to anyone if their opinion doesn’t start off with; “you don’t know anything”, rather than just discussing the issues.

The above exchange tells a different story.

I kind like it, because all of the negative responses here on this forum only made my profile better, just being here for the past year or so, made my sub count on “youtube’ shoot up like crazy from 150 to 1050 with very good input, and a lot of ads (about $400. A month)…

This is why I love this place; more drama is more cash in hand.

Ah, that's why you post your video link in every comment. You're not actually interested in discussing anything. Why don't you get the hell outta here with your BS then!

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 08:33 PM

Just because some here don’t like what they see outside of my wing chun, they always seem to walk themselves clean off a plank. It’s probably why it always starts off with “you don’t know anything; just like you did.

My feeling don’t get hurt, I’m a grown man. I Iove it when you and others go off on me, like at the end of you latest post, when mines towards you was polite.

And I thought we could have nice a conversations on physic and wing chun; but you told me to go to he!!, and if I jump on that, I would be talking down to you. I’m sorry ‘Sir,’ Iyes just forget mah place sometimes.:D

LFJ

12-11-2012, 08:50 PM

My feeling don’t get hurt, I’m a grown man. I Iove it when you and others go off on me, like at the end of you latest post, when mines towards you was polite.

And I thought we could have nice conversations on physic and wing chun; but you told me to go to he!!, and if I jump on that, I would be talking down to you.

Get real. You're the one that went off on me trying to tell me off. I was mimicking you. :rolleyes:

"A nice conversation on physics and wing chun". I've posted quite a bit of my understanding on it. You haven't offered anything in response but attitude.

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 08:57 PM

Why didn’t you just start off talking about the issues rather than bringing me down, and we don’t even know each other, but you talk as if you know my skills first hand?

It’s clear that I’m not the best, but I truly know my system and many has said it shows; so why belittle me other than just talking about the issues, when you first started talking to me?

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 09:02 PM

I'm sorry,

I was just trying to get under your skins. But I see that it's upsetting you.

Let's stop.

LFJ

12-11-2012, 09:39 PM

I'm not sure where I ever talked down to you rather than discuss the issues. :confused:

I made an observation on your video and explained my understanding in detail (posts #108 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1201286&postcount=108) & #110 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1201289&postcount=110), to which you have yet to respond with anything but attitude.

You pretend to want to have a nice conversation about physics and wing chun, but ignore those posts.

Do you just take disagreement as a personal attack or something?

Ali. R

12-11-2012, 09:54 PM

Noooo, I love to debate, I just don't like it when people say “I don’t know anything” or I’m not doing something right without a reasonable narrative and discussion.

You were just caught in the cross fire, and in some case slid out as collateral damage (a good guy). I lost interest when I was told to “go to he11, I’d ask for and it’s all good. I have to go to work in the morning. Maybe we’ll talk tomorrow.

Take care,

LFJ

12-11-2012, 10:31 PM

I never said you don't know anything, and didn't simply say you're doing something wrong and leave it at that. I gave a quite detailed explanation of my understanding and observation here.

I also didn't tell you to go to hell. I said "why don't you get the hell outta here with your BS then" if you're just posting here to get Youtube views and money, and not to actually discuss things.

That was mimicking the tone you took with me when explaining my understanding of physics and wing chun. You don't seem to remember this post now:

That's real BS talk. You can't run that crap on me, I'm old school...

...you can’t get away with BS here, not with me...

Don't try to play victim now, being afraid of the same tone you used on me.

Since you don't respond to my posts #108 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1201286&postcount=108) & #110 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1201289&postcount=110) with anything but attitude, I'll take it you have nothing and the comments stand.

wingchunIan

12-12-2012, 01:32 AM

This is a very pragmatic concept, I’m not the only one; any good fighter can do this against those who don’t have a clue; like you.:rolleyes:

Just show the mark.

Now that I know you desperately want people to watch your sadly dismal video clip for your youtube ratings I will decline to watch it again and provide a mark. Everyone who has bothered to watch the clip and who knows anything about wing chun or fighting in general will be able to see exactly what I described without needing a mark on the clip.
One thing that this whole thread reinforces is that any idiot can post clips on youtube and claim expertise in any area they choose.
As far as me not having a clue, I've had plenty of real fights, I've trained in plenty of martial arts with some excellent instructors and I'm above average intelligence. Based on your clips you have very limited skills and some seriously deluded views, given your attitude I have no sympathy for you and take great amusement in your self delusion. I do however feel very sorry for anyone taken in by your BS and would advise all of those in your clips to get in the car and travel, once they've experienced real Wing Chun or other decent martial arts instruction their eyes will be well and truly opened.

GlennR

12-12-2012, 03:03 AM

I'm sorry,

I was just trying to get under your skins. But I see that it's upsetting you.

Let's stop.

I havent been involved in this thread, but seriously, you need to go back over your posts and have a re think about how you try to engage other people.

Your apparent ego driven posts, contrasted with your posts overflowing with false humility, are annoying at best and almost disturbing at worst

Ali. R

12-12-2012, 07:23 AM

No ego just want to discussing the issues rather than binging attacked, just as you guys are doing right now; but if I jump on yours and others statements in defense, like the Mod said; “I’ll be talking down to you guys”. I wonder why? HUmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Just as I through I would come here this morning and talk about physic and wing chun for the second time, but he just went off on me once again. But if I say anything back like in the tone you all are speaking to me, right now, I’ll be a baaaaad man.

Because I could snatch everyone of you guys clean out the frame with facts, if you only focus on me and not the issue/facts.

Love you guys keep it coming, but more on the issue rather then me.

Take care,