Use of Phoenix Eye in Wing Chun

[Warrior_Man]

Does Wing Chun ever use the phoenix eye fist, and if so, which points in particular do you aim for?

[Vajramusti]

Does Wing Chun ever use the phoenix eye fist, and if so, which points in particular do you aim for?
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The question has been asked before.In the wing chun that I do..fung ngan kuen and
gurng gee kuen are developed in the jong and biu jee and through chi sao and gor sao.
They should not be toyed with. First the structure and the dynamics have to be developed well before they can be used effectively. They can be used in places when the opportunity is there.

You seem to be asking a more memorized technique kind of question.

[Warrior_Man]

Where do you strike with the phoenix eye? I use it in my style and have trained to be able to punch without breaking either my fingers or my thumb.

[JPinAZ]

Here's the other thread that was started on this (although this one might be better for you as that one is a little bit of a train wreck, but there was some good input there):
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62146

My understanding of phoenix eye usage is against softer targets (neck, ribs, etc), and sometimes the face/eyes. We have double phoenix eye applictaions to the eyes demonstrated in our second section of Hung Fa Yi SNT. In any case, the tool needs to be 'developed' to be reliably used to limit risk of injury.

[Vajramusti]

Where do you strike with the phoenix eye? I use it in my style and have trained to be able to punch without breaking either my fingers or my thumb.
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What style do you refer to as "my style"? Several styles including some southern mantis use phoenix eye- but there are differences in the formation, the structure and the deliveries. I have never broken my thumbs or fingers.

[Warrior_Man]

I train in a family style from my master. I have learned two phoenix eye fists - one with the thumb tucked in under the index finger, the other with the thumb resting on top of the index finger.

[Sihing73]

I train in a family style from my master. I have learned two phoenix eye fists - one with the thumb tucked in under the index finger, the other with the thumb resting on top of the index finger.

Hello,

And what specifically is the "Style" you practice?
An unwillingness to disclose such basic information can lead to doubt about both your ability and true intentions.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Does Wing Chun ever use the phoenix eye fist, and if so, which points in particular do you aim for?


What is phoenix eye or ginger fist? There are neither one in Wing Chun. If I am correct, it is a gouging technique and pretty much worthless.
For what it is worth, I have not broken any fingers using them in fighting, and never broken my fist. Wing Chun hand weapons are few, but extremely effective in their applications. Good Wing Chun is like a good chicken soup. You keep tossing stuff in it that does not belong and it ceases to be good chicken soup.

[PalmStriker]

Agree. :) + 3 characters. https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+Chinese+chicken+soup&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Dr1&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hpm5UKeIKIew0QGmmoHgDw&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807

[EternalSpring]

I've been using my phoenix eye more often while tool sparring (mainly because it's at a safe enough intensity to use the phoenix eye with caution). I know that I'm still in the earlier stages of training and am far from an expert, but I find a good success rate when it comes to moving in and striking all different parts of the ribs and arms. I've mainly been using the type of phoenix eye that's been described as having the thumb on top of a folded index finger and I've also found that most of our techniques when used in defense still cause damage while holding this fist. Originally, the twisting of my kiu would be a basic way to wrap offense and defense in one motion, the phoenix eye takes this a step further because the twisting of the kiu while executing technique will twist the fist, giving a "limb destruction" type mentality where the thumb knuckle often hits something while the kiu is blocking.

This is just how I use my phoenix eye in light sparring when it comes to Ving Tsun and for all I know I may discover new and better ways to do things as i continue and increase intensity. But for now, I have to admit that it has proved to my partners that a little thing like changing the "hand formation" can significantly change the game up.

[EternalSpring]

What is phoenix eye or ginger fist? There are neither one in Wing Chun. If I am correct, it is a gouging technique and pretty much worthless.

It depends I guess. Some would say that the phoenix eye is being trained from day one when we train the "sao kuen/closing of the fist (commonly seen after huen sao in forms)." Some schools even train using phoenix eye as the starting fist.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It depends I guess. Some would say that the phoenix eye is being trained from day one when we train the "sao kuen/closing of the fist (commonly seen after huen sao in forms)." Some schools even train using phoenix eye as the starting fist.


I have never seen it used as Wing Chun. Now, I have seen people, when making their fist, leave the first finger out of the fist and it appeared to be used as Phoenix eye, but was not. The thumb and fore finger are not actually supported and are subject to dislocation or breakage during a hard strike. I will admit that this phoenix eye can hurt, but it is only a gouge. A strong punch with a flat fist will broadcast a great deal more energy into the impact and cause greater stunning power. And you can recoil and strike repeatedly with the flat fist where you might not be able to do so with good effect with the phoenix eye. I think rather than trying to improve on something that has gone through it's improvement stage hundreds of years ago, it would be far better to use the end results to your best advantage. That is what I do.

[EternalSpring]

I have never seen it used as Wing Chun. Now, I have seen people, when making their fist, leave the first finger out of the fist and it appeared to be used as Phoenix eye, but was not. The thumb and fore finger are not actually supported and are subject to dislocation or breakage during a hard strike. I will admit that this phoenix eye can hurt, but it is only a gouge. A strong punch with a flat fist will broadcast a great deal more energy into the impact and cause greater stunning power. And you can recoil and strike repeatedly with the flat fist where you might not be able to do so with good effect with the phoenix eye. I think rather than trying to improve on something that has gone through it's improvement stage hundreds of years ago, it would be far better to use the end results to your best advantage. That is what I do.

I guess we see the phoenix eye in different lights. IME, the phoenix eye can strike just like the vertical fist without any intense focus on using the index finger or thumb joint. Also, it's not really a gouge imo. It could be, but it can also be used like a whip, and it can be added into many other strikes (some posters on this forum have already shown vids of them incorporating it into their hooks to the body, there are similar ways for Ving Tsunners to use it as well imo).

Also, as for the last thing you mentioned, I dont think anyone is trying to "improve" anything in regards to the phoenix eye. As far as I'm concerned, this is a natural part of my Ving Tsun training, not an extracurricular type of thing. That said, "improvement stages" dont necessarily only happen once. Those who train diligently and continuously challenge themselves are always in the improvement stage, but maybe that's just my view as a student still learning the system.

oh, fingers and joints are subject to breaking or getting injuries mainly when they're not conditioned correctly. This is true for nearly any part of the body though. You dont just decide to use a different fist and start fighting with it, as far as I know that is.

[Yoshiyahu]

Exactly good post...i like the part where you suggested one should deal with conditioning...



I've been using my phoenix eye more often while tool sparring (mainly because it's at a safe enough intensity to use the phoenix eye with caution). I know that I'm still in the earlier stages of training and am far from an expert, but I find a good success rate when it comes to moving in and striking all different parts of the ribs and arms. I've mainly been using the type of phoenix eye that's been described as having the thumb on top of a folded index finger and I've also found that most of our techniques when used in defense still cause damage while holding this fist. Originally, the twisting of my kiu would be a basic way to wrap offense and defense in one motion, the phoenix eye takes this a step further because the twisting of the kiu while executing technique will twist the fist, giving a "limb destruction" type mentality where the thumb knuckle often hits something while the kiu is blocking.

This is just how I use my phoenix eye in light sparring when it comes to Ving Tsun and for all I know I may discover new and better ways to do things as i continue and increase intensity. But for now, I have to admit that it has proved to my partners that a little thing like changing the "hand formation" can significantly change the game up.

[Sillumkuen]

What is phoenix eye or ginger fist? There are neither one in Wing Chun. If I am correct, it is a gouging technique and pretty much worthless.
For what it is worth, I have not broken any fingers using them in fighting, and never broken my fist. Wing Chun hand weapons are few, but extremely effective in their applications. Good Wing Chun is like a good chicken soup. You keep tossing stuff in it that does not belong and it ceases to be good chicken soup.

There are 2 families of Wing Chun off the top of my head that have Phoenix eye. Those Being Pan Nam amd Jiu Wan. Both incorporating Phoenix into the end of Biu Jee.

Phoenix eye is far from worthless. The ability to attack vital points/pressure points using this fist is a phenomenal attack. Also if you're referring an eye gouge, Phoenix is amazing. Any eye gouge is actually. Last time I checked losing vision is a fight stopper.

Many styles teach Phoenix gouge as a strike to the eye followed by a twisting digging motion with your thumb.

"Take his eye out" - Eddie Chong.

[imperialtaichi]

the phoenix eye takes this a step further because the twisting of the kiu while executing technique will twist the fist.

In KL22, the 2nd of the 22 Sansau/Sansik is the "Phoenix Eye Hammer." I would call it one of the three most important Sau of the system.

Using the "eye" of the fist, when the Kiu is twisted as ES described, develops a very important spatial coverage and power generation method, even if one does no actually use it to hit the target.

There's more to it than meet the eyes (pun intended ;) ).

[Paul T England]

According to Lu Kai Sifu in Foshan, when Ip Man left Foshan he told his students that the Pheonix eye punch was the best strike.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[wingchunIan]

What is phoenix eye or ginger fist? There are neither one in Wing Chun. If I am correct, it is a gouging technique and pretty much worthless.
For what it is worth, I have not broken any fingers using them in fighting, and never broken my fist. Wing Chun hand weapons are few, but extremely effective in their applications. Good Wing Chun is like a good chicken soup. You keep tossing stuff in it that does not belong and it ceases to be good chicken soup.

Although the phoenix eye and ginger fist are not things that are trained in my lineage I would say that your assertion that neither are in Wing Chun is a little off. The Wing Chun kuit kuen passed on by Ip Man specifically mentions them in a line often translated as "the phoenix eye and ginger fist show no mercy" so it is quite reasonable that some branches of Wing Chun would retain them.
I personally am of the view that given the limited opportunities to apply each specialist form of fist and therefore their infrequent applicability I would much rather dedicate the time that I would have to spend on specific conditioning to developing tools that I use more often (I believe that this is also the reason that they were not generally taught by Ip Man and are hence absent from many lineages that descend from him) however others have different points of view that are equally valid.

[Vajramusti]

Lee Chiang Po's wing chun comes from a different source than Ip man. He makes the common mistake of generalizing for all wing chun rather than limit statements to one's own perspective and/or experience.

Both the phoenix eye and the ginger fist are in the biu jee and mook jong that I do. Without the details of the formations, motions, coordination and delivery they may not make sense.Just adding them without guidance and proper training can result in them being ineffectively used.

Agree with Ian-- if one does not know them better to perfect what you do know.

[Ali. R]

Lee Chiang Po's wing chun comes from a different source than Ip man. He makes the common mistake of generalizing for all wing chun rather than limit statements to one's own perspective and/or experience.

Both the phoenix eye and the ginger fist are in the biu jee and mook jong that I do. Without the details of the formations, motions, coordination and delivery they may not make sense.Just adding them without guidance and proper training can result in them being ineffectively used.

Agree with Ian-- if one does not know them better to perfect what you do know.


Joy,

You make so much sense with very little effort, and I enjoy your posting; it’s very, very educational. If you can, try not to reply to this, just thinking out loud.

Ali