Thoughts on Pak Sau [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

wingchunIan

12-03-2012, 08:43 AM

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/12/training-perfect-pak-sau.html

What you think?

Leaving aside that its a well rehearsed movie clip, I think its pretty poor as an example of a pak sau entry. BL's footwork is awful, he over commits his bodyweight and is only punching with his arm. If you only concentrate on the hand speed it looks good but if you look a bit closer it falls apart.

Yoshiyahu

12-04-2012, 04:19 PM

mun hung

12-04-2012, 05:12 PM

i rather like the post...I understand what they mean by weight displacement and body structure and footwork...But in the same token its very good way to illustrate that Bruce LEE utilize the ESSENCE of PAK DA in this opening scene.

Although one would argue in actual application you need to apply it different..i think its a good video showing basic pak sau application...Of course you can add any strike you want a sun fist, a hook, a jab, a hammer fist, etc?

Agree!!

I'm still a Bruce Lee fan, and I cannot think of anyone else who did as much for Wing Chun. People like to talk cr@p about him, criticize his techniques, but the truth is - he would have kicked the asses of most of the armchair warriors on this board without breaking a sweat.

My SiFu told me that one of the things Yip Man admired about Bruce was that he had an incredible work ethic in regards to training. If only everyone trained half as hard.

Vajramusti

12-04-2012, 07:21 PM

In that crossing hands with Wall in Enter the Dragon-it was a beautiful move.He adapted wing chun for the requirements of the movie- nothing wrong with that.

anerlich

12-04-2012, 08:28 PM

I'm still a Bruce Lee fan, and I cannot think of anyone else who did as much for Wing Chun. People like to talk cr@p about him, criticize his techniques, but the truth is - he would have kicked the asses of most of the armchair warriors on this board without breaking a sweat.

My SiFu told me that one of the things Yip Man admired about Bruce was that he had an incredible work ethic in regards to training. If only everyone trained half as hard.

100% correct. What Joy said also.

Lee Chiang Po

12-04-2012, 09:04 PM

My response was actually directed towards Jackie.

And why isnt it an example of Wing Chun? I think Bruce Lee did a good job with that one. X pak sau is a great technique. I would love to do that to someone given the opportunity.

Great martial cinema for it's time....

It just isn't. It was strictly for the movie. JKD is just a modified form of his wing chun, but he was also not that fast. Some scenes were sped up and they used bamboo against ripe watermelons for sound effects. Crossed hands could lead to all sorts of mishaps where you could be jerked and trapped just to get a face full of fist.
Strictly for the movie fight scene. He stood in front of a mirror for hours at a time practicing for that speed, and I am guessing that he would not actually be able to pull that off outside the movie set.

Bacon

12-04-2012, 09:39 PM

It's just a movie guys. It's scripted and has nothing as far as real combative value. Now cut out the Bruce Lee circle jerk and discuss something worthwhile.

mun hung

12-04-2012, 09:50 PM

It just isn't. It was strictly for the movie. JKD is just a modified form of his wing chun, but he was also not that fast. Some scenes were sped up and they used bamboo against ripe watermelons for sound effects. Crossed hands could lead to all sorts of mishaps where you could be jerked and trapped just to get a face full of fist.
Strictly for the movie fight scene. He stood in front of a mirror for hours at a time practicing for that speed, and I am guessing that he would not actually be able to pull that off outside the movie set.

Okay, granted - it was a movie with sound affects, but to say that Bruce Lee was'nt fast would be laughable. Bruce Lee was very fast. Speed was one of Bruce's best attributes on and off the screen.

And to say "I would'nt do this because he can do that, and this can happen, and that could happen." is strictly nonsense. In a real fight ANYTHING can happen, you just have to be the person MAKING it happen.

And the nucleus of JKD is Wing Chun, at least when Bruce was doing it! ;)

mun hung

12-04-2012, 09:58 PM

It's just a movie guys. It's scripted and has nothing as far as real combative value. Now cut out the Bruce Lee circle jerk and discuss something worthwhile.

I believe we are discussing a Wing Chun X pak sau that was done by a famous Wing Chun practitioner in a martial arts movie on a Wing Chun forum. I don't believe we're out of bounds here.

mun hung

12-04-2012, 10:07 PM

In that crossing hands with Wall in Enter the Dragon-it was a beautiful move.He adapted wing chun for the requirements of the movie- nothing wrong with that.

Wish I could have said this first. Beat me to it, Joy.

Bacon

12-04-2012, 10:37 PM

I believe we are discussing a Wing Chun X pak sau that was done by a famous Wing Chun practitioner in a martial arts movie on a Wing Chun forum. I don't believe we're out of bounds here.

It's on the exact same level as discussing the application of things Jet Li does in his movies. It's a film. There's nothing of actual combat in it. If you want to look to things for technique and application look at trained fighters against other trained fighters not some guy who did movies, looked cool, and had no fight record beyond unverifiable stories tossed around.

mun hung

12-04-2012, 11:46 PM

It's on the exact same level as discussing the application of things Jet Li does in his movies. It's a film. There's nothing of actual combat in it. If you want to look to things for technique and application look at trained fighters against other trained fighters not some guy who did movies, looked cool, and had no fight record beyond unverifiable stories tossed around.

We are not talking about a Wu Shu champion who made it into movies.

We are talking about a famous martial artist, who studied under a very famous Wing Chun instructor, who taught and created his own art, and inspired millions with his kung fu movies (we have all watched a hundred times) on a Wing Chun forum. I think it's pretty legit conversation.

So what's your fighting record like?

Bacon

12-05-2012, 12:05 AM

We are not talking about a Wu Shu champion who made it into movies.
You're talking about an actor who has no legitimate fight record. The two are equivalent.

We are talking about a famous martial artist,
Martial artists means nothing if you don't fight skilled opponents.

who studied under a very famous Wing Chun instructor
Who cares. That doesn't mean a thing. There are guys who studied from videotapes and went to fight in the UFC with good success while people who trained under very legitimate instructors failed to measure up.

who taught and created his own art
Again who cares. I could create my own art, it doesn't mean a thing.

and inspired millions with his kung fu movies
Just like Sylvester Stallone in Rocky....

I think it's pretty legit conversation.
I think there's no reason to take his fighting abilities seriously since he never fought anyone worthwhile and because of that there's no reason to look to him for any kind of fighting application when there are plenty of other worthwhile idols who actually fought skilled opponents. I can name tons off the top of my head who were from or before his era. Masahiko Kimura, The Great Gama, Karl Gotch, Muhammed Ali, Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston... The list goes on, and those aren't even counting the more modern Vale Tudo matches and MMA. Even the guys who stepped up in the early UFC and got their butts handed to them by Royce Gracie had more balls than Bruce.

So what's your fighting record like?

Don't try to change to an irrelevant subject. If you want we can discuss that on another thread but it has no relevance to the fact that Bruce Lee has nothing really to do with fighting compared to others who could be used as examples.

Jake104

12-05-2012, 01:17 AM

Bacon

12-05-2012, 01:40 AM

Let's put it this way Jake, I'd be far more afraid of Kimura than of Kano and more inclined to listen to anything he had to say because he put his money where his mouth was.

mun hung

12-05-2012, 11:41 AM

"I think there's no reason to take his fighting abilities seriously since he never fought anyone worthwhile"

With this logic, I guess you could say YM,WSL,PB,LT,Emin, William Cheung, and every other Master of ANY MA shouldn't be taken seriously because none of them have "fought anybody worthwhile". Your argument is stupid. Unless you knew BL,or sparred BL, or fought BL, you really don't know. So to argue about something you don't know, is silly and stupid.

Totally agree with you.

Bacon - no sense in debating this with you. You believe what you believe, and it certainly isn't my job to try and change that. Besides, I really don't care. I don't take anything on this forum too seriously anyway. 90% of it is laughable fantasy. I'm just killing a liitle time cause I'm laid up with the flu. Peace...

JPinAZ

12-05-2012, 01:26 PM

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/12/training-perfect-pak-sau.html

What you think?

I'd say it was a fun movie scene, but has little to do with Wing Chun unless we over simplify Wing Chun and strip it down to the barest of technique level, but that isn't really what Wing Chun is.

Looking at it from principle level, I'd say he was giving up most of the WC concept/principles in preference of speed. Look at his narrow fencing stance at the setup. And then when he 'pak das' he is hopping up out of his root and shifting most all his weight to the front leg, his hands have a long/short problem, does not even address the bridge, etc. This tells me he is ignoring WC self centerline & A-to-B centerline theories, duei ying facing & gate theories, opponent's gravity, etc to execute a 'technique' as fast as possible in a lucky strike manner.

But then really, it IS a movie and it does LOOK cool (whcih is most important in a film), so not really sure why it's being discussed :)

GlennR

12-05-2012, 01:48 PM

Bacon

12-05-2012, 01:54 PM

Oh FFS..... its a movie scene!

It may look flash, buts its as relevant to fighting as a good cake recipe.

If you want to see someone that is magic to watch AND can fight.... watch this chap

Bruce wouldnt know last a round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VLWBVpL23k

Yeah some people just don't understand that it's better to take fighting advice from a fighter than from an actor :rolleyes:

mun hung

12-05-2012, 01:55 PM

JPinAZ - this is off topic. Are you a part of HFY in Arizona? If so, who is your SiFu?

mun hung

12-05-2012, 02:03 PM

Oh FFS..... its a movie scene!

It may look flash, buts its as relevant to fighting as a good cake recipe.

If you want to see someone that is magic to watch AND can fight.... watch this chap

Bruce wouldnt know last a round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VLWBVpL23k

Are we comparing martial arts to boxing now? Boxing is a sport. With rules, gloves, mouthpieces, breaks. You're on the wrong forum.

JPinAZ

12-05-2012, 02:13 PM

JPinAZ - this is off topic. Are you a part of HFY in Arizona? If so, who is your SiFu?

Yes, I run a small HFY club here in Tempe/Mesa, as well as help out at the AZ Kwoon on occasion. My first HFY sifu was Richard Loewenhagen and my current HFY sifu is GM Garrett Gee, why do you ask? :)

GlennR

12-05-2012, 02:14 PM

Are we comparing martial arts to boxing now? Boxing is a sport. With rules, gloves, mouthpieces, breaks. You're on the wrong forum.

Oh, sorry for introducing actual fighting...... ill leave you to your movie reviews

mun hung

12-05-2012, 02:24 PM

Yes, I run a small HFY club here in Tempe/Mesa, as well as help out at the AZ Kwoon on occasion. My first HFY sifu was Richard Loewenhagen and my current HFY sifu is GM Garrett Gee, why do you ask? :)

I'll pm you.

mun hung

12-05-2012, 02:40 PM

Oh, sorry for introducing actual fighting...... ill leave you to your movie reviews

C'mon now. They were great boxers. They weren't martial artists. Are we talking martial arts, boxing, wrestling, brawli or what? Sugar Ray didn't study Wing Chun. Why is he even in this discussion?

If you don't think this thread is worth your time - move on. Go start a best alltime boxerthread. Don't discredit a martial artist without any kind of proof. That's like saying Musashi was a poor swordsman because there was no video capture of him fighting with anyone worthy or that he was more of a writer than a swordsman.

This is where you should be:

www.boxingforums.com

Yoshiyahu

12-05-2012, 02:53 PM

This thread is derailed, DEAD, destroyed and disengrating to nothingness with every new post!!!

wow...At the end of the day...Strickly hand techniques...Bruce Lee borrowed or use alot of WC techinques with HIS own art and also on the screen...You check out the movie rapid fire...The scene where Brandon Lee was doing Lop Sau against the balding chinese guy...you see alot WC techs there...Now of course in actual fighting...When you practice more than ONE art...You may or may not use all the principles and Theories of WC...but just because you omit one or two here and there doesn't mean your not doing WC...At the end of the day its about fighting...NOT what lineage or principles you apply....If you win the Fight...then your WC is good. If you loose the fight then your WC needs work!!!

Winners dictate the name of their ART!

GlennR

12-05-2012, 02:55 PM

C'mon now. They were great boxers. They weren't martial artists. Are we talking martial arts, boxing, wrestling, brawli or what? Sugar Ray didn't study Wing Chun. Why is he even in this discussion?

Why werent they martial artists?

Is the guy at the boxing gym training 4 nights a week any different to a WC guy doing the same?
Or is WC more "scientific"??
Or because its of asian origin?

Whats judo then?

If you don't think this thread is worth your time - move on. Go start a best alltime boxerthread. Don't discredit a martial artist without any kind of proof. That's like saying Musashi was a poor swordsman because there was no video capture of him fighting with anyone worthy or that he was more of a writer than a swordsman.

I dont think the topic of this thread is really worth anyones time.
Its a totally useless drill/technique as portrayed in the scene.

But people gravitate towards it (should i say WC people) because it LOOKS good.

My reason for putting up the Sugar Ray clip was to say "heres someone that looks good AND is effective at the same time", i wasnt comparing styles at all. Id happily put up a WC guy doing the same but i cant find a clip of one.

So question for you, if youre a WC trainer, are you going to point your students towards that clip and say that is good WC and/or fighting technique?

This is where you should be:

[url]www.boxingforums.com[/url

And heres one for you .....

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/enter_the_dragon/

mun hung

12-05-2012, 04:26 PM

JPinAZ

12-05-2012, 04:27 PM

This thread is derailed, DEAD, destroyed and disengrating to nothingness with every new post!!!

Pot meet kettle. This is very similar to the way most of your threads are viewed ;)
Besides, it's a thread about a movie scene that has little to do with WC to begin with - how much on the tracks did you expect it to be?

You may or may not use all the principles and Theories of WC...but just because you omit one or two here and there doesn't mean your not doing WC...

You couldn't be more wrong. It's a wonder you studied WC for over 15 years and still say this nonsense. WC IS the principles/theories, not a toolbag of techniques. You take away the core concepts or ignore the foundational principles, you are no longer 'doing' WC - all you have is just some moves backed by attributes.

Just for laughs, please share with us what pinciples/theories of WC you feel could be taken out and still be considered doing WC?

At the end of the day its about fighting...NOT what lineage or principles you apply....If you win the Fight...then your WC is good. If you loose the fight then your WC needs work!!!

This makes no sense. If you ignored the principles of WC, you weren't doing WC PERIOD, regardless if you win or lose (you can do either without WC).

anerlich

12-05-2012, 08:06 PM

Now cut out the Bruce Lee circle jerk and discuss something worthwhile.

Since you seem to like circle jerks....

The "I am Bruce Lee" documentary has quite a few MMA fighters and celebrated boxers doing the same thing as those complementing Bruce Lee are here.

LOL at you nobodies putting him down. Pathetic form.

Bacon

12-05-2012, 08:55 PM

The "I am Bruce Lee" documentary has quite a few MMA fighters and celebrated boxers doing the same thing as those complementing Bruce Lee are here.

You'll notice they compliment him for his conceptual idea of total incorporation of anything that works regardless of style, for inspiring people through his movies, even for his physical fitness but not for being a fighter.

GlennR

12-05-2012, 09:36 PM

D@mn, Yoshi's right! This thread is derailed! Thank you for bringing me to my senses. I apologize for contributing to it.

I just erased my entire response to Glenn, because it's just useless banter. Not worth the time debating. Unfortunately for me, this was probably one of the more interesting threads for me on the forum. Lol

Agree to disagree....

Cheers!

Whats there to apologise about??

The original post was "heres a clip..... what do you think of it?"

Everyone has given their opinion, people have disagreed and debate has ensued.

Personally, i kept my comments to the clip (Not BL) and seems that disagreeing means that the thread has been derailed in the opinion of some.

If you want to repost it as ..... "Heres a clip... only comment if you think it is awesome" then go for your life and i, for one, will keep my opinions to myself

Vajramusti

12-05-2012, 10:02 PM

Yes Kimura was great and the original Sugar Ray was probably the best boxer ever...but that has little to do with the question asked at the beginning of the thread-on the scene from Enter the Dragon.

It's a movie scene and the photography and direction had the viewer in mind-it is not meant to be an instructional video.

Pak da, front kick into the groin from the ground and the side kick were good dramatized and suggestive movie representations of wing chun motions by Bruce Lee.

Different contexts and merits involved in the kimura and in boxing Why confuse the contexts.?

Bacon

12-06-2012, 12:03 AM

Yes Kimura was great and the original Sugar Ray was probably the best boxer ever...but that has little to do with the question asked at the beginning of the thread-on the scene from Enter the Dragon.
My point with Kimura vs Kano was that, though Kano was an expert Judoka, I'd be far more afraid and more willing to listen to the man who fought tons of no holds barred challenge matches against very skilled opponents.

Different contexts and merits involved in the kimura and in boxing Why confuse the contexts.?

No difference. Kano may have been a trained Judoka but Kimura put his money where his mouth was. Bruce is the equivalent of Kano while there are plenty of Kimuras out there to learn from in action against trained, resisting opponents.

It's a movie scene and the photography and direction had the viewer in mind-it is not meant to be an instructional video.

Pak da, front kick into the groin from the ground and the side kick were good dramatized and suggestive movie representations of wing chun motions by Bruce Lee.
Hmmm... Dramatized moves from a man who wasn't a fighter. let's all look at how awesome it is and pat ourselves on the back for doing wing chun!:rolleyes:

Vajramusti

12-06-2012, 05:39 AM

[QUOTE=Bacon;1200199]My point with Kimura vs Kano was that, though Kano was an expert Judoka, I'd be far more afraid and more willing to listen to the man who fought tons of no holds barred challenge matches against very skilled opponents.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good for you.The thread was not about Kano versus Kimura.

Bacon

12-06-2012, 01:51 PM

Good for you.The thread was not about Kano versus Kimura.

You're missing the moon for the finger. My point was that Bruce may have been a martial artist but he was not a fighter. There are plenty of actual fighters out there to take from rather than an actor in a movie :rolleyes:

Vajramusti

12-06-2012, 04:20 PM

You're missing the moon for the finger. My point was that Bruce may have been a martial artist but he was not a fighter. There are plenty of actual fighters out there to take from rather than an actor in a movie :rolleyes:
-----------------------------------------------------------

We are not exactly communicating--or at least not well.

I am not :"taking" anything from the movie-I just enjoyed the movie.

I began wing chun because I met my sifu,became fascinated with the art and began to try out learning the art in a disciplined hands on way ..not from videos or movies or books or chat lists... and not because of Bruce Lee. But I think his movies got many people interested/started in martial arts and he deserves appreciation for that. And, he probably was a very good fighter-though he made his money in movies.

You know zilch about what I am missing or not missing.

So- just forget about it.

anerlich

12-06-2012, 07:51 PM

My point was that Bruce may have been a martial artist but he was not a fighter.

GSP says he is a martial artist, rather than a fighter, too. SFW?

You'll notice they compliment him for his conceptual idea of total incorporation of anything that works regardless of style, for inspiring people through his movies, even for his physical fitness but not for being a fighter.

I think the consensus was closer to something like "whether or not he was a fighter with a record was irrelevant".

Sounds like you got the finger, too. Most armchair critics deserve it.

Bacon

12-06-2012, 08:26 PM

I am not :"taking" anything from the movie-I just enjoyed the movie.
That's fine then. Enjoy the movie.

I began wing chun because I met my sifu,became fascinated with the art and began to try out learning the art in a disciplined hands on way ..not from videos or movies or books or chat lists... and not because of Bruce Lee. But I think his movies got many people interested/started in martial arts and he deserves appreciation for that.
Yes he deserves appreciation for getting people started in martial arts just like Sylvester Stallone deserves appreciation for getting people into boxing. That has nothing to do with one's fighting ability.

And, he probably was a very good fighter-though he made his money in movies.
Probably don't feed the bulldog. Either someone's a fighter and there is credible evidence of that or they're not a fighter. Bruce wasn't a fighter. There are people looking at the movie going "ooh he's such a good fighter and his pak sau is so awesome." Bollocks. He wasn't a fighter, he was an actor. It's a Bruce Lee circle jerk.

LFJ

12-06-2012, 08:35 PM

He wasn't a fighter, he was an actor.

It's a mistake to look at movies to judge anyone's actual fighting ability, but did you know him personally? Those who did said the things he did in his movies didn't reflect the way he actually fought, as one should expect. I don't know why anyone should doubt that he was a fighter before getting into movies or away from the camera. What would you be basing that on?

Bacon

12-06-2012, 09:31 PM

It's a mistake to look at movies to judge anyone's actual fighting ability, but did you know him personally? Those who did said the things he did in his movies didn't reflect the way he actually fought, as one should expect. I don't know why anyone should doubt that he was a fighter before getting into movies or away from the camera. What would you be basing that on?

I'm not basing it off his movies... No one should. I'm basing it off the fact that he doesnt have a fight record period let alone against any legitimate opponents.

LFJ

12-06-2012, 09:51 PM

I'm not basing it off his movies... No one should. I'm basing it off the fact that he doesnt have a fight record period let alone against any legitimate opponents.

What is a fight record? How do you get a fight record? Do you mean an official record in competition? That's sport record, not fighting. How could there be an official record for street fighting? Every time you scrap with some hooligan it's not a sanctioned bout.

Are you saying unless you're an athlete who joins sports competitions and has an official record, you're not a fighter, even if you get in real street fights all the time, because there are no rules and officially declared winners? That's bizarre thinking...

PalmStriker

12-06-2012, 10:01 PM

That's fine then. Enjoy the movie.

Yes he deserves appreciation for getting people started in martial arts just like Sylvester Stallone deserves appreciation for getting people into boxing. That has nothing to do with one's fighting ability.

Probably don't feed the bulldog. Either someone's a fighter and there is credible evidence of that or they're not a fighter. Bruce wasn't a fighter. There are people looking at the movie going "ooh he's such a good fighter and his pak sau is so awesome." Bollocks. He wasn't a fighter, he was an actor. It's a Bruce Lee circle jerk. Yer a circlejerker, a real baconbeater. Call Bruce Lee's backfist whatever you want, the guy was tough, and yer all fluff. :)

Bacon

12-06-2012, 10:09 PM

What is a fight record? How do you get a fight record? Do you mean an official record in competition? That's sport record, not fighting. How could there be an official record for street fighting? Every time you scrap with some hooligan it's not a sanctioned bout.
Well there's Vale Tudo, no holds barred fighting, MMA. And FYI the first two are essentially the same and existed long before Bruce was around. Even sport fighting with minimal rules (like MMA) > "street fighting." Sport fighting such as boxing or full contact karate like Shotokan are good tests of skill against trained resistan opponents and still > "street fighting."

Are you saying unless you're an athlete who joins sports competitions and has an official record, you're not a fighter, even if you get in real street fights all the time, because there are no rules and officially declared winners? That's bizarre thinking...
I'm saying if you fought Chuck Liddell in or out of the ring the results would be the same. Teh d34dly eye gouges and groin strikes won't save you against someone who has been fighting high class trained fighters.

Bacon

12-06-2012, 10:10 PM

Yer a circlejerker, a real baconbeater. Call Bruce Lee's backfist whatever you want, the guy was tough, and yer all fluff. :)

Really. Name me one person of repute he fought and beat. I'll wait. Go on.

PalmStriker

12-06-2012, 10:18 PM

People who were trying to kill him.

Bacon

12-06-2012, 10:21 PM

Still waiting...

LFJ

12-06-2012, 10:42 PM

Well there's Vale Tudo, no holds barred fighting, MMA. And FYI the first two are essentially the same and existed long before Bruce was around. Even sport fighting with minimal rules (like MMA) > "street fighting." Sport fighting such as boxing or full contact karate like Shotokan are good tests of skill against trained resistan opponents and still > "street fighting."

It's bizarre to even place these in the same equation and say one is greater than the other. Sport is something you join. Street fighting is something that happens. You're basically saying agreeing to fight in a protected environment is greater than getting caught in a potentially deadly scrap where concealed weapons may be involved.

But what does this have to do with not being a fighter even if you actually fight, just because you don't get an official record on the street?

I'm saying if you fought Chuck Liddell in or out of the ring the results would be the same. Teh d34dly eye gouges and groin strikes won't save you against someone who has been fighting high class trained fighters.

This doesn't answer my question. I was questioning your statement that you need a official record in order to be considered a fighter, even if you actually fight on the street all the time.

Following your logic, if Chuck Liddell doesn't fight in the ring and get an official record for himself, he's not a fighter, even though his fighting results would be the same in or out of the ring. If he only fights on the street and doesn't do it in the ring, he's not a fighter.

Doesn't this read as stupid as it feels to type?

LFJ

12-06-2012, 10:52 PM

Teh d34dly eye gouges and groin strikes won't save you against someone who has been fighting high class trained fighters.

BTW, I think you may be illusioned by sport fighting. It's not just eye gouges, groin strikes, small joint manipulation, etc. they'd have to worry about. Even without all that, many things these "high class trained fighters" train to do in the cage would simply get them killed on the street because they're thinking in terms of fair competition in a relatively safe environment with time limits and everything.

mun hung

12-06-2012, 11:37 PM

90% of the people who have posted on this thread recognize that Bruce Lee definitely had fighting skills. But of course, there's always some fantasy football guys out there who think it's cool to discredit one of the hardest working, most influential martial artists of our time because he's lacking any documented "official" fights with well known "sport" fighters. But the only real thing lacking here is respect for a fellow martial artist who is dead. One who popularized our style. There is no honor in that. Discrediting a great person to make oneself sound smarter....not in this case.

Yip Man didn't have an official fighting record either. Could you even dare to say that he wasn't a good fighter?

Wayfaring

12-07-2012, 07:46 AM

Still waiting...

It was a different time. There was no popular UFC or Pride then. There was a very small kickboxing pro circuit - Bill Wallace and Benny Urquidez fought on that. And boxing.

Bruce was an actor. With an obsession with fighting. His skills were vouched for by Bill Wallace who did have a fight record and Chuck Norris, who was winning all the point tournaments around. But he was not a pro fighter.

If he lived, maybe we'd have seen more. Dan Inosanto went on to do much more work in the modern MMA type training. Bruce is called the pioneer of MMA by many of the modern MMA fighters. His studies, writing and demos kind of laid the foundation for all that.

As far as tired sport vs. street arguments, yes a pro MMA fighter can lose a street fight. Tito Ortiz got beat up outside a club in a known incident by a person who wasn't a pro fighter, and Urijah Faber barely made it out of Thailand alive last year after some of his antics. But thinking they can't handle some schmo who practices deadly eye gouges on compliant partners is completely delusional.

thedreamer7

12-07-2012, 05:17 PM

GSP says he is a martial artist, rather than a fighter, too. SFW?

I think the consensus was closer to something like "whether or not he was a fighter with a record was irrelevant".

Sounds like you got the finger, too. Most armchair critics deserve it.

Agree. Please don't anyone say GSP is not a real fighter because he only fights in the ring :)

thedreamer7

12-07-2012, 05:19 PM

As far as tired sport vs. street arguments, yes a pro MMA fighter can lose a street fight. Tito Ortiz got beat up outside a club in a known incident by a person who wasn't a pro fighter, and Urijah Faber barely made it out of Thailand alive last year after some of his antics. But thinking they can't handle some schmo who practices deadly eye gouges on compliant partners is completely delusional.

Correct anyone can lose a fight. However the better fighters are normally the guys who fight the most and train the hardest. Bruce Lee definitely trained hard! Correct Wing Chun to the someone's opinion is not what counts here.

EternalSpring

12-08-2012, 12:46 AM

I think Bruce Lee is a great and influential man. I dont really care much about defending his honor, but logically speaking, I gotta say it's mind-boggling seeing people arguing against his fighting ability by simply mentioning that he was an actor. Makes me wonder if all the "fighters" on these forums have day jobs. Wouldn't it seem stupid to go up to any fighter who doesn't fight for a living and say "hey, you're not a fighter because you're an entrepreneur/doctor/lawyer/teacher/etc?" Not to mention that it's common knowledge that Bruce also taught martial arts. Then there's the fact that he made it clear even in interviews that "screen fighting" and "real combat" are not the same at all.

From the looks of it, there's no reason to say that he wasn't a fighter. If you ask me, the real issue is when people say he was the greatest fighter or martial artist of all time. Of course, that's a totally different and probably easily debatable statement. But to say he wasn't a fighter at all? That's almost as out there as saying he was the greatest fighter of all time.

Just my 2c.

EternalSpring

12-08-2012, 12:57 AM

oh wow, forgot that this thread was about Pak Sau. Ha.

In regards to that blog article. It's hard to say what I "think" of it because it's simply just too basic of an article. The author lists 4 points to gaining an awesome Pak sao. They are

1. Do pak sao as done in siu nim tao
2. Use foot work (such as Biu Ma) with Pak sao
3. Train the footwork well so your structure is strong and effective and uses the whole body
4. Train what I learned as the "jong sao drill" where one person (or both) uses footwork to cut into his partners space and both their jong sao's collide and one side does "pak da" to the jong sao and the other side "pak saos" the punch that broke through with the "pak da." I'm sure most people have a similar exercise, I've seen a lot of JKD guys do it as well.

Ultimately, it was an article that could be summed up with "practice the form and do drills and your pak sao will get better (although I'd say it still wouldn't be perfect without some sort of sparring application)" What do i think of that? It's true, but common sense. I dont see how one could even train Ip Man Ving Tsun without doing those 4 tips naturally. But hey, if those tips did help anyone or offer something they never thought of, more power to the author.