What is your wing chun lineage?

[R0NiN]

What is your Wing Chun lineage, as in who is your instructor, and who is their instructor. For instance, My instructor is Gorden Lu, and his instructors was his father Lo Man Kam, and Duncan Leung.

[Eric_H]

Why are you asking?

[R0NiN]

just wondering, i would like to see the variety of lineages we have in this forum.

[Vajramusti]

just wondering, i would like to see the variety of lineages we have in this forum.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An unreasonable expectation. Responses if any will likely be skewed and not a reliable sample.
Also there are varying definitions of what a lineage means.

[stonecrusher69]

I'm from the Henry Leung lineage (Fut Sao Wing Chun). He was my sifu,but I also trained with 3 other of his top students as well. Ive also trained in the Ip Man system under Moy Yat and Lee Moy Shan for a bit. I have many WC friend and have exchanged information with them over the years. Ive been to exposed and seen just about every kind of WC out there.

[anerlich]

My Wing Chun instructor is Rick Spain. His was William Cheung.

[Jubei1]

I train under sifu Dunn Wah, disciple of Grandmaster Moy Yat

[Vajramusti]

I began wing chun in 1976-did other arts/sports before that and did some other things after that.
Wing chun is my core art.

My wing chun sifu is Augustine Fong and my sigung is Ho Kam Ming- along time close student of Ip Man.
Sifu Fong was an exceptional fighter in his time and his conceptual understanding of wing chun and Sigung Ho's as well is exceptional.

[EternalSpring]

I'm a disciple of Sifu Yee Yeung, who is a disciple of Sigong Moy Yee, who is a disciple of Si Tai Gong Moy Yat.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

My lineage would be as follows listed in order or learning first to most recent:

Yip Man\Ho Kam Ming\Augustine Fong\Roy Undem\Me

Yip Man\(Leung Sheung)\Leung Ting\Keith Kernsprecht & Alan Fong\Me

Yip Man\Leung Sheung\Ng Wah Sum\Chung Kwok Chow\Me

[mun hung]

Me < Allan Che Kong Lee

Allan Che Kong Lee < Lok Yiu, Yip Man, Duncan Leung

My Sifu studied under Lok Yiu first, then privately with Yip Man, and furthered his studies with Duncan Leung (another private disciple) on Yip Man's recommendation, who he learned the long bridge from.

[ntc]

I started studying back at the Macau Wing Chun Athletic Association a while back under Sifu Ho Kam Ming.

Yip Man --> Ho Kam Ming --> me

[russellsherry]

hi all my first sify barry pang came from wsl my cujrrent sifu and best wing chun i have seen randy williams oh on semminars wsl was cool stephan chan the best kicks in wing chun al.so along the way train with williiam cheungand dana wong and the best australian guy i have seen just a opinion david foggie Stephans chan rep in melbourne russ

[Ali. R]

'Woo Fai Ching’ was a student of ‘Yip man’ for two years, then ‘Leung Sheung’ for over ten years.

I’ve trained with Woo Ching personally for over 25 years.

lineage: Yip Man, Leung Sheung and Woo Ching, then myself.

[k gledhill]

Yip Man > Victor Kan > me '84 - '02

Yip Man > WSL > P Bayer > me '04 .....present

[Happy Tiger]

Leung Ting, Wood Nan,me
Wong Shun Leung, Li Man Kit, me
Tsui Sheung Tin, Simon Ng/Leo Lit, me

[PalmStriker]

Modified Crane Style/ Wing Chun supplement, Yiu Choi lineage, Hong Kong.

[groovenugget]

1)ip man-mak po,(plus others)-david grago-tony spires-fred hansard, john russel-me
2)ip man-bruce lee-various students-lamar davis, john middaugh-me
3)ip man-ip chun, ip ching, simon lau, wong shun leung-steve lee swift-jack roberts-me

i know jkd/wing chun connection is a bit contentious-but i count it. perhaps not as trad wc, but wc, nonetheless.

[cobra]

Ip Man- Leung Ting-Emin Boztepe-Jeff Webb-Me - 1999-2007
Ip Man - Wong Shun Leung- Gary Lam- Me- 2007-present :D

[LoneTiger108]

Yip Man - Lee Shing - Joseph Man - Me

[Lee Chiang Po]

My father was my sifu, my older brothers also took part in my training. He told me his system came from the area around Canton and was fathered by a man named Hung. He called it Hung Fa Wing Chun. My father taught many, many Chinese men this system, but not all to the same level. Most required only a certain amount of training to be able to do their jobs.

[leeshing]

Fong Yee Ming - Fung Sang - Lee Shing - Joseph Lee - Me : Michael Watson

Ip Man - Lee Shing - Joseph Lee - Me

[Phil Redmond]

Various Sifus since 1970's including Chung Kwok Chow, Duncan Leung, Allan Che Kong Lee, Moy Yat, Lee Moy Shan, Alan Lamb, Henry Leung, William Cheung, and some Pan Nam WC

[R0NiN]

Various Sifus since 1970's including Chung Kwok Chow, Duncan Leung, Allan Che Kong Lee, Moy Yat, Lee Moy Shan, Alan Lamb, Henry Leung, William Cheung, and some Pan Nam WC

who would you say was the best?

[Alan Orr]

Yip Man - Hawkins Cheung - Robert Chu - me (Alan Orr)

[hulkout]

Yip Man - Moy Yat - Sunny Tang (Dunn Wah) - Me

[wclearner]

Faht San Wing Chun
--------------------------
IP Man -> Wong Sheung Leung -> Victor Leow -> me
IP Man -> Fung Bing Bo -> Victor Leow -> me
IP Man -> Chu Siong Tin -> Victor Leow -> me

Gulo Wing Chun
--------------------
Chiu Fu Kai -> Leung Wan Qi -> Victor Leow -> me.

Thanks
Chi Man

[Josexx]

Faht San Wing Chun
--------------------------
IP Man -> Wong Sheung Leung -> Victor Leow -> me
IP Man -> Fung Bing Bo -> Victor Leow -> me
IP Man -> Chu Siong Tin -> Victor Leow -> me

Gulo Wing Chun
--------------------
Chiu Fu Kai -> Leung Wan Qi -> Victor Leow -> me.

Thanks
Chi Man

hi Chi Man,

Is Victor Leow, the same Victor Leow of Vikoga Wing Chun? I was wondering if you know of a Vikoga student by the name of Kenneth Lim Xiang Fuk who came from Surabaya indonesia to the USA for fame and fortune? Do you know Kenneth Lim Xiang Fuk? in the USA he goes by Lin versus Lim, in Indonsia he used Salim for his last name. If you are from Indonsia you will understand why he also called himself Salim. On the internet he is known to come from Victor Leow's Vikoga lineage. I am curious if you hear of Kenneth since he could be from your lineage.
Kenneth also had another sifu by name of master Tio of HKB from Indonesia. On this video link is more information, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGe1Ypn3n8I
how could a 6th generation ip man wing chun student suddenly become a secret black flag wing chun no one ever heard of?
Can you tell me more about your lineage?

[wclearner]

Hello Josexx,



Is Victor Leow, the same Victor Leow of Vikoga Wing Chun?

Yes.



I was wondering if you know of a Vikoga student by the name of Kenneth Lim Xiang Fuk who came from Surabaya indonesia to the USA for fame and fortune? Do you know Kenneth Lim Xiang Fuk?

I met a person from Surabaya called Kenneth. I can't recall his full name because in Indonesian usually go by the first name only, not by the surname or second name.



On the internet he is known to come from Victor Leow's Vikoga lineage. I am curious if you hear of Kenneth since he could be from your lineage.
Kenneth also had another sifu by name of master Tio of HKB from Indonesia. On this video link is more information, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGe1Ypn3n8I
how could a 6th generation ip man wing chun student suddenly become a secret black flag wing chun no one ever heard of?

I have not seen Kenneth from Surabaya for over 10years. I don't know where he is nor what he does.




Can you tell me more about your lineage?

The IPMAN lineage can be seen on the VIKOGA.com website.
The broken lines acknowledge the people who have contributed some theories/knowledge to the VIKOGA System, no matter how big or small.
The solid lines acknowledge the people who have contributed significantly to the VIKOGA System.

As for the Gulo/Kulo Wing Chun.
My teacher's teacher is Leung Wan Qi.

I am extremely grateful for my teacher's teacher such as Wong Sheung Leong, Fung Bing Bo and Leung Wan Qi for their generosity. If it was/is not for their generosity, I believe I won't be researching Wing Chun today.

Thanks
Chi Man.

[Grumblegeezer]

First brief encounter with WC:
Ip Man-Ho Kam Ming-(Augustine) Fong Chi Wing-Keith Sonnenberg-me, 1979

Later: Ip Man-Leung Ting-me 1980-1992

Currently: Training under my old si-dai Jeff Webb (Ip Man-Leung Ting and Keith Kermspecht, now independent) 2007 to present.

One outside influence: DTE (Direct Torres Eskrima)-these guys include a few WC people from different lineages who cross train with boxers and eskrimadores -- what they do looks a bit like the videos I've seen Alan Orr post. Perhaps because they share his interest in testing their stuff in MMA competition. No, I don't compete-I'm an old guy. But I keep my eyes (and mind) open.

[HmorenoM]

Jiu Wan - Francis Fong - Steven Broughman - Alejandro Arocha - Me

[Bacon]

Currently: Training under my old si-dai Jeff Webb (Ip Man-Leung Ting and Keith Kermspecht, now independent) 2007 to present.


Does he still call you sihing?

[kung fu fighter]

My father was my sifu, my older brothers also took part in my training. He told me his system came from the area around Canton and was fathered by a man named Hung. He called it Hung Fa Wing Chun. My father taught many, many Chinese men this system, but not all to the same level. Most required only a certain amount of training to be able to do their jobs.

is this the same system that william cheung does as traditional wing chun, and Garrett Gee does as Hung Fa Yi wing chun?

[JPinAZ]

is this the same system that william cheung does as traditional wing chun, and Garrett Gee does as Hung Fa Yi wing chun?

Not this again.:rolleyes:
This subject has been gone over time and again on here already and I'm pretty sure both sides agree: Hung Fa Yi and TWC are not the same system and both stand on their own. Even a quick look at their SNT clips will show this to be the case.
And yes, while it appears that they are closer cousins and share more similarities than if compared to most of the other YM and non-YM lineages (I mean, they are ALL WC and will have similarities to varying degrees), they are still 2 separate systems.

Regardless, IMO, to really answer this, one would have to have some direct experience in at least 2 of the three (which I'm assuming LCP does not, but I could be wrong). But I'm interested in seeing what he has to say! :)

[Paul T England]

Very interesting thread to see who is out there and how the wing chun family maps together.

Yip Man-Yip Chun-Sam Kwok-Trevor Jefferson -Me since 1985

Apart from countless hours with mt sifu, sigung and dai sigung, I have also been fortunate to share many experiences with my friends and seniors in the WSL Family, David Peterson, Cliff Au Yeung, Alan Gibson, Ged Kenerk et al. I have also been fortunate to spend many days learning from Lun Kai Sifu in Foshan and seminars and privates with many different lineages and sifu.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Grumblegeezer]

Does he still call you sihing?

Actually he does sometimes, privately at least. In front of his students I refer to him as Master Jeff (because he has earned that rank) and similarly, in front of his students he refers to me as "your si-pak" or just "Sifu Steve" if several sifus are present (using the term "sifu" in it's meaning as an instructor or "one with proficiency", not as your personal "teacher-father").

Seriously, you can use whatever terms you like, but your attitude and actions will either show respect ...or not. And I respect this guy.

[Wayfaring]

Regardless, IMO, to really answer this, one would have to have some direct experience in at least 2 of the three (which I'm assuming LCP does not, but I could be wrong). But I'm interested in seeing what he has to say! :)

I thought we asked him about this in the past and his answer was it was a family kung fu art and from his perspective not connected at all to HFY or TWC.

[JPinAZ]

I thought we asked him about this in the past and his answer was it was a family kung fu art and from his perspective not connected at all to HFY or TWC.

Yes, that was my understanding too! I just didn't want to speak for him :)

[kung fu fighter]

Not this again.:rolleyes:
This subject has been gone over time and again on here already and I'm pretty sure both sides agree: Hung Fa Yi and TWC are not the same system and both stand on their own. Even a quick look at their SNT clips will show this to be the case.
And yes, while it appears that they are closer cousins and share more similarities than if compared to most of the other YM and non-YM lineages (I mean, they are ALL WC and will have similarities to varying degrees), they are still 2 separate systems.

Regardless, IMO, to really answer this, one would have to have some direct experience in at least 2 of the three (which I'm assuming LCP does not, but I could be wrong). But I'm interested in seeing what he has to say! :)




I thought we asked him about this in the past and his answer was it was a family kung fu art and from his perspective not connected at all to HFY or TWC.



Correct me if i am wrong fellas, but isn't hung Fa yi decended from Hung Gun Biu?
Lee Chiang Po says his sytem decends from Hung Gun, what are the chances this is the same person?


The lineage of which my own wing chun comes from is called Hung Fa, and is said to be descended from Hung Gun. My dad always just called it Hung Fa Wing Chun. I had no idea that there were so many different lineages of Wing Chun in the world until I found this forum while looking at the Kung Fu magazine site some time back. I thought that mine was of the only lineage.



If I remember correctly, My dad was born in 1880. He was old when I came along. In 1965 he died from diabetes at 85 years old. He was a Boxer in 1900 and barely missed the headsman. Later he fled the Canton area and went to Hong Kong in 49 to escape the Communists. From there he came to the states. He told me that he learned Hung Fa from ex-soldiers. They were working members of a tong gang. The stuff I related might or might not have been true, but it does make sense to me at least. These things he told me. Now I am old. Or getting old.

Doesn't Hung Fa Yi also claim it was a military art? hmmm



I am sorry I have not been back. Sometimes this forum sees me coming and won't let me in.

Now, what I have been trying to do is keep from making statements of fact. I don't have the facts. Too much myth to really know. What I have said is that what it was called by my dad was Hung Fa. He also called it Hung fa wing chun. He never really called it Hung Fa Yi. I have heard it called by other names as well. I know that he was born in 1880. Some time after 1890 he started learning what he called Hung Fa wing chun. He learned it from ex military men. Soldiers of the Imperial Army. Later in his life he learned from other men when he joined with a secret society. A tong gang is you will. He did not come to the states until 1950. He was an old man. He never did tell me anything concerning lineage or so forth. So I have no idea. Now, I know that what he was teaching me was at least that old. I am guessing that it goes way back more than that. When we see family trees with the last person being enhereter I have to wonder. I was not told this in so many words, but it was indicated that there were hundreds if not thousands of people running around China that were Wing chun boxers.
When I said that it looks the same to me it is because it looks the same to me. Wing chun is built on concepts and basic principals. You can watch 5 people that are trained by different sifu and you will see differences in their style. However, in most all cases you are going to see that they do adhere to these principals even if it looks a bit different. When you abandon these principals you are not doing wing chun in my opinion. Also, if you are the last living person of a single lineage then you can enheret. But you can not enheret the entire system as such.
I have watched Bill Cheung do wing chun and must say that I do my wing chun pretty much like he does. I am sure by Victors written article that I felt familiar with every concept of what he wrote. If my wing chun was different I would have immediately noticed differences. As for the HFY of Garret Gee, I have no idea as I have never seen him do much except on a few short video clips. It looked exactly like what Bill Cheung does.
I do not believe the story of Ng Mui or Yimm Wing Chun. It would make the lineage far too narrow to have had hundreds if not thousands of followers in China. Look at the number of lineages today. It could not account for only a half dozen generations.
I don't think I have ever made a posting on the 101 forum spoken of earlier. I am not a member and would not be able to. I have only been there a couple of times and gave up trying to navigate that forum. That was something posted on this forum.

Chiang


Perhaps you guys were not reading the same posts that i did lol

[JPinAZ]

Correct me if i am wrong fellas, but isn't hung Fa yi decended from Hung Gun Biu?
Lee Chiang Po says his sytem decends from Hung Gun, what are the chances this is the same person?

I was excited when LCP originally came here and told this story. And, if the stories his father was told were correct, then yes, it very well could be the same Hung Gun (Biu) and be from the same system he taught (or a version of it). But to really know for sure, one would need first hand experience of both systems (and not second hand stories).

Until then, hopefully Lee Chiang can take a look at one of the HFY SNT forms on youtube and let us know if it's the same or similar to what he was taught? (lee, if you are interested and need help finding a clip, let me know and I can post up a link)


Perhaps you guys were not reading the same posts that i did lol

No need to make assumptions. I have read what you quoted when LCP posted them.

If you re-read in that last quote, he also said "Now, what I have been trying to do is keep from making statements of fact. I don't have the facts. Too much myth to really know." I would agree.

Being a HFY practitioner for over 10 years, I think LCP's stories are very interesting and I would like to know more about what he's learned and maybe meet up with him some day if I have a chance. But I don't think it's fair for anyone to start drawing any conclusions about what is what simply based on myths - and he seems to feel the same apparently.

But, my main reason for originally posting is to draw the the distinction between HFY & TWC and how they are not the same system. HFY and TWC members have said several time they are not the same and that's more than good enough for me. Hopefully this is good enough for you. :)

Just curious what your interest is in this or why you assume they are all the same, if none of the actual parties of the systems even feel this way with any large degree of certainty?

[kung fu fighter]

Just curious what your interest is in this or why you assume they are all the same, if none of the actual parties of the systems even feel this way with any large degree of certainty?

My suspician is that GM William Cheung Learnt Hung Fa wing chun in secreacy and was not allowed to divulge from whom he learnt it from for whatever reason. He then had no choice but to claim he learnt it from ip man, after Ip's death. But it's quite possible that he reveild the true source to only one or two of his most trusted deciples, which would explain why Rich Spain renamed TWC as Hung Suen wing chun. I Believe GM Garrett Gee also learnt this same system and added to it's curriculam over the years. just my opinion

In regards to why none of the actual parties of these systems would admit to it, it's probably because they are afraid of political issues with one another lol

[Paddington]

Hell, why not. I include just those that are alive in this list.

Ip Chun>*not telling*>me

[Graham H]

*not telling*

Classic! :D:D:D:D

[Paddington]

Classic! :D:D:D:D

I thought I would get a smile. :D

Not many certified by Ip Chun, it is easy to work out!

EDIT: NO, it is not Sam Kwok. He is not certified! :D

[Graham H]

I'm not certified by Ip Chun either :D

[Paddington]

I'm not certified by Ip Chun either :D

But yet so many are certifiable instead. :)


jk ofc

[JPinAZ]

My "suspician" is.. blah blah blah....just my opinion


Ahh, so now we have it.

While you obviously have nothing better to do then guess and theorize about people you've never met, regarding systems you oviously have no experience in, with no proof to any of it - I'm not going to waste any more time on this type of garbage BS nonsense. :rolleyes:

Later

[kung fu fighter]

Ahh, so now we have it.

While you obviously have nothing better to do then guess and theorize about people you've never met, regarding systems you oviously have no experience in, with no proof to any of it - I'm not going to waste any more time on this type of garbage BS nonsense. :rolleyes:

Later

What's the matter, you have absolutely nothing to debate the valid points i brought up , instead of re-arranging my words and throwing a temper tantrum lol. that just proves my point! And who is theorizing now by saying i have no experience in any of these systems, how would you know? I have trained and have a rank in TWC and Have compared what i've learnt to what's written in Garrett Gee's book "mastering kung fu. It's almost identically the same system! except for a few concepts which Garrett added later from Hoffman's weng chun through Benny Meng, claiming it to be part of Hung Fa Yi all along. which is why Hoffman stopped teaching Benny.

[Eric_H]

What's the matter, you have absolutely nothing to debate the valid points i brought up , instead of re-arranging my words and throwing a temper tantrum lol. that just proves my point! And who is theorizing now by saying i have no experience in any of these systems, how would you know? I have trained and have a rank in TWC and Have compared what i've learnt to what's written in Garrett Gee's book "mastering kung fu. It's almost identically the same system! except for a few concepts which Garrett added later from Hoffman's weng chun through Benny Meng, claiming it to be part of Hung Fa Yi all along. which is why Hoffman stopped teaching Benny.

I'll tell you clearly, as I don't have much a dog in this fight outside of being GM Gee's student and having been through the "Benny Era."

Benny was learning Hung Fa Yi, he then went and learned some Chi Sim, he started mixing the stuff together in a 9-level curriculum he was teaching. He kept trying to push that TKD/Krav Maga and all that other junk he learned was "Fau Kiu" (level 1-3) the chi sim stuff was "San Kiu" (level 4-6) and Hung Fa Yi was Weng Ku (level 7-9). This was a *******ization of Hung Fa Yi's Saam Mo Kiu philosophy along with Benny's business sense (selling belts).

Hoffman found out about it, and rightly so got ****ed. Told Benny he needed to pay up if he was gonna teach his stuff, and they had a falling out. Benny continued to teach the same material, but took off all the chi sim names and made them names like single hand reaction drill 1,2,3 etc.

I can see where Hoffman would think that Benny was feeding info cause both Hoffman and GM Gee were both teaching "Kiu Sao" and "Heaven Human Earth" even if they were vastly different in understanding of the same terms. To tell you truthfully, GM Gee knows about 40 styles of Kung Fu from his dad, GM Peter Kim Ho Chu. He doesn't need anyone else's info at this point in his life.

Chi Sim Kiu sao isn't like Hung Fa Yi Kiu Sao which isn't like Hung Gar Kiu Sao. They just use some of the same terms.

As for TWC and Hung Fa Yi, it takes first hand experience with both to see the difference. It's very easy to sort out in a live setting. As JPinAZ noted, the guys that do TWC and have met up with HFY guys see the difference, there are even a few on this forum for you to ask. Personally, I've seen GM Cheung's tapes, etc. For my money, it's not the same system, though we do look a lot more alike in some ways than other WC.

I don't know any TWC guys in the SF bay area, but am game to meet up and compare notes if you're around here.

Best,

[JPinAZ]

Hey Eric,

Master Redmond has moved to the SoCal area, maybe we can plan a WC meet-up at some point since he's not that far away? That is, if he's willing of course :)
(Hey Phil, shoot me a PM)

[kung fu fighter]

I'll tell you clearly, as I don't have much a dog in this fight outside of being GM Gee's student and having been through the "Benny Era."

Benny was learning Hung Fa Yi, he then went and learned some Chi Sim, he started mixing the stuff together in a 9-level curriculum he was teaching. He kept trying to push that TKD/Krav Maga and all that other junk he learned was "Fau Kiu" (level 1-3) the chi sim stuff was "San Kiu" (level 4-6) and Hung Fa Yi was Weng Ku (level 7-9). This was a *******ization of Hung Fa Yi's Saam Mo Kiu philosophy along with Benny's business sense (selling belts).

Hoffman found out about it, and rightly so got ****ed. Told Benny he needed to pay up if he was gonna teach his stuff, and they had a falling out. Benny continued to teach the same material, but took off all the chi sim names and made them names like single hand reaction drill 1,2,3 etc.

I can see where Hoffman would think that Benny was feeding info cause both Hoffman and GM Gee were both teaching "Kiu Sao" and "Heaven Human Earth" even if they were vastly different in understanding of the same terms. To tell you truthfully, GM Gee knows about 40 styles of Kung Fu from his dad, GM Peter Kim Ho Chu. He doesn't need anyone else's info at this point in his life.

Chi Sim Kiu sao isn't like Hung Fa Yi Kiu Sao which isn't like Hung Gar Kiu Sao. They just use some of the same terms.

As for TWC and Hung Fa Yi, it takes first hand experience with both to see the difference. It's very easy to sort out in a live setting. As JPinAZ noted, the guys that do TWC and have met up with HFY guys see the difference, there are even a few on this forum for you to ask. Personally, I've seen GM Cheung's tapes, etc. For my money, it's not the same system, though we do look a lot more alike in some ways than other WC.

I don't know any TWC guys in the SF bay area, but am game to meet up and compare notes if you're around here.

Best,


Hey Eric,

Thank you for your post and clarification, everything you said seems very sincere and genuine, which i find productive to my origional post, instead of being attacked.

Can you elaborate on some of the details, similarities and differences when comparing Hung Fa Yi and TWC?

If I am ever in the SF bay area i will definately like to meet up and compare notes.

[Eric_H]

Hey Eric,

Thank you for your post and clarification, everything you said seems very sincere and genuine, which i find productive to my origional post, instead of being attacked.

Can you elaborate on some of the details, similarities and differences when comparing Hung Fa Yi and TWC?

If I am ever in the SF bay area i will definately like to meet up and compare notes.

No worries man, tempers flare on the internet... it's kind of what it's made for.

As i said earlier, I've not done TWC, so my observations are from a brief intro by Dale Vits, who was working on learning HFY at the time and from videos, etc, so take it with a grain of salt.

I'm just going to pick a few things that popped out at me right away:

Body mechanics - Our stances are pretty different even though they look close. The footwork for getting there (Leung Yi Ma vs Side Neutral stance switching for example) is not even close. We tend to use a lot more knee language than i see in TWC.
Strategy - We don't go for blindside, which seems to be a really big deal in TWC.
Centerline - Since it's the driving theory of WC, this one is a biggie. In TWC, you have center and central line (which seems to be a shared center between 2 points). In Hung Fa Yi we have Self Center (which is both line and gravity), Kiu Sao Centerline (which is connecting A point to B point) and Gee Ng Kiu center line (how to balance energy on the bridge). For us, if you don't connect all 3, you don't have a true center yet.


That last one is the most important... if your way of setting up and using the driving theory of WC (centerline) isn't the same, you're going to be operating pretty different. That goes for comparing any 2 WC styles, really.

[JPinAZ]

What's the matter, you have absolutely nothing to debate the valid points i brought up , instead of re-arranging my words and throwing a temper tantrum lol. that just proves my point! And who is theorizing now by saying i have no experience in any of these systems, how would you know? I have trained and have a rank in TWC and Have compared what i've learnt to what's written in Garrett Gee's book "mastering kung fu. It's almost identically the same system! except for a few concepts which Garrett added later from Hoffman's weng chun through Benny Meng, claiming it to be part of Hung Fa Yi all along. which is why Hoffman stopped teaching Benny.

This is exactly why I didn't want to discuss with you. IMO, none of what you said is valid because it's not based on experience - just guesses - which is fine if the intent is to genuinely learn and not accuse as you are doing above. And I have no emotion in this except maybe annoyance, nor did anyone 'attack' you (nice one BTW). Again, all nonsense, as well as showing a lack of maturity and somewhat thin skin - again, my opinion of course ;)

If I came off as short with you, let me be clear on why I didn't want to have this discussion again:

First, this has all been hashed out numerous times on this forum and others. If your real intent was to learn, a little time spent searching would have shown you this. But I guess some people just find it easier to sling mud around and see what sticks sticks...

Next, all your assumptions & accusations are based on what? Some unknown amount of training in one art (could be a lot or a little FAIK) , reading an introduction book on another, and also somehow know enough of Chi Sim to draw conclusions about people you have most likely never met before.
It's clear you didn't know what you were talking about in any of it - as Eric was able to show rather easily. And I can say this with certainty because I was there next to him through all of it. Yet you felt you knew enough about 3 arts (HFY, TWC & Chi Sim) to speculate that one or both of these highly-respected men with close-to 100 years WC experience between them are essentially theifs and/or liars. Couldn't this be viewed as 'attacks' as you like to put it? Hopefully you are see my point.

Now, if you simply had a question about HFY, it's lineage or it's members without the gossip and accusations, I would have had no problem discussing with you. But your approach and accusations are what put me off. Eric has more patience than me in this regard :)

Just for conversations sake and since you brought it up, how long did you train TWC and under who? What 'rank' do you have? (And it could be a high rank for all I know, but a first level white belt/sash can also be considered a 'rank')
Do you have any experience in Chi Sim Kiu Sau methods?
And just for fun, what is your name?
I ask because it's easy to claim experience in something you might not really have and sling mud on the interent behind an alias - plus, I just like to know who it is I'm talking to and so I don't just assmue you to be a troll ;)

Jonathan (JP)