What IS racism??

[RenDaHai]

Hey Team,

Inspired by BaWang's comments in another thread;

There is a lot of confusion in the world about racism. Frequently people are accused of it when they were not at all and other times blatant racism goes unchallenged. I think this is from base misconceptions of what racism is.

So...what is it?

Is it only racism when white people use it?

Is Racism more about culture than actual race?



Lets have it out, and please don't call each other racist within the thread or compare anyone to hitler for their comments.

[MightyB]

Hey Team,

Inspired by BaWang's comments in another thread;

There is a lot of confusion in the world about racism.
So...what is it?

Is it only racism when white people use it?

Is Racism more about culture than actual race?



Lets have it out, and please don't call each other racist within the thread or compare anyone to hitler for their comments.

Where's the confusion? Just read BaWang's comments... he's definitely a racist. :)

[Syn7]

You only have to have ill will towards one race to be racist. Like saying all Arabs live in the stone age. You can have a dozen tokens and it doesn't change the fact that you're racist. You can have friends of all colors and cultures, but as soon as you generalize one race, you are a racist.

We are all racists in one way or another. Very few have never said or thought something that was unfair and overgeneralized. When I hear otherwise, I hear a liar 98% of the time.

[bawang]

Where's the confusion? Just read BaWang's comments... he's definitely a racist. :)

how am i a racist bro? i love all humans around the world.

[Faruq]

Yeah, I'd have to think that all humans are racist to a point. We don't all have the power to influence people's lives based on it, but that doesn't mean we aren't racist. And I think since the 50s or maybe the 60s until just recently here in the U.S. that's been a big misconception. Many underprivileged or disadvantaged people believed because they weren't in a position to decide the course of other people's lives or determine if they got loans, keep them out of country clubs or prestigious neighborhoods; they weren't racist. They may not have been able to enact discriminatory practices in those days, but that didn't mean they couldn't be racist. That caused a lot of hidden resentment in interracial dialogues.

But to address the name of the thread, isn't racism preference of one racial over another by a certain racial group? And then therefore wouldn't discrimination enacting policies whether overt or hidden determining what advantages or disadvantages groups were entitled to based on their race, (and thus to a point determining the trajectory of their lives) be racial discrimination?

[Kellen Bassette]

I think the notion that only white people are racist is ignorant and racist in itself.

I don't consider stereotyping racist at all. Stereotyping is making a generalization that may or may not be true most of the time. I think it's pretty well understood that there are exceptions to the rules; I think most people engage in some sort of stereo typing and in some cases, it is, indeed, accurate more often then not...if I say most Mexicans speak Spanish and have brown skin, didn't I just stereotype? Does that mean I hate Mexicans?

If I say most rural Africans are poor isn't that a stereotype? There are certainly exceptions, but if you base standards of living against the West, more often then not it will be true. None of that implies I hate Africans at all or am somehow ignorant. After all I made a statement that is, generally, true.

I kind of agree with some of what Bawang was saying about there being a difference between racism and prejudice.

A white man and a black man may work together and get along fine. They may have no problem hanging out, but the white man may have an issue with the black man dating his daughter. He doesn't hate the black man, they may even be friends...but he certainly harbors some sort of prejudice. He doesn't hate the black race and isn't going to lynch anyone, he has black friends, but he retains some prejudice feelings on certain matters.

Of course prejudice is bad too, but I wouldn't put it in the same category as true racism.

[wenshu]

Yeah, I'd have to think that all humans are racist to a point.

I agree. It's just a fact of life.

I think what is pivotal is the self awareness of an individual and whether or not that awareness is brought to bear to either diminish their own ignorance or to enable it.

[Syn7]

Well, although the word racism has negative connotations attached to it, in reality the word is very misunderstood. Racism is simply classifying by race, or believing that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are or can be determined by race.

[wenshu]

Well, although the word racism has negative connotations attached to it, in reality the word is very misunderstood. Racism is simply classifying by race, or believing that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are or can be determined by race.

The definition also includes a value judgement of inherent superiority or inferiority.

[Syn7]

The definition also includes a value judgement of inherent superiority or inferiority.

I think


believing that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are or can be determined by race.

covers that.

[Scott R. Brown]

Racing is when two or more people fix a specific task to be accomplished and compete to see who can finish in the shortest amount of time!

More come types of racing include, running, car driving, swimming, rowing, skiing, etc.

It is a perfectly harmless activity performed for fun, entertainment the for the acquisition of fame and fortune!

[RenDaHai]

The thing is I think these days the racism card is played altogether too often.

The definition also includes a value judgement of inherent superiority or inferiority. Believing that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are or can be determined by race.

i don't think this is quite enough. I think the definition for 'Racist' needs to contain malicious intent.

Thinking about things genetically the above is almost certainly true. Certain characteristics will vary predictably with race. That is the truth, and the truth is impartial not prejudice.

We have evolved to value our 'in' group more than other groups. There is a huge amount of psychological literature on the topic. So Racism is natural and even logical to some extent.

The problem is when someone plays the racism card the 'racist' gets lumped in with the whole range of racists from someone making a slightly racist joke to a full on member of the KKK.

I think it is important to redefine racism in such a way that separates those who use it with malicious intent.

How can we define racism that separates malicious racism from simple 'in' group 'out' group prejudice or someone making a joke?

[wenshu]

I think

'believing that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are or can be determined by race.'

covers that.

I'll concede that.



I think it is important to redefine racism in such a way that separates those who use it with malicious intent.

It's silly to call for the redefinition of a word just to make up for lack of common sense.

[RenDaHai]

It's silly to call for the redefinition of a word just to make up for lack of common sense.

But a lack of common sense is one of the largest problem that faces western society today.

I think we need to keep redefining everything we know in order to advance.

[hskwarrior]

some of you may not believe this but i'll throw it out there.

i read something that was saying racism was something engineered by the Illuminati, as well as "white mans guilt" over the slavery issue.

still, if you take a black, white, latin and asian child to the park they will play with each other regardless of ethnicity. its always someone else i.e. the parents who teach someone to be racist.

[Kellen Bassette]

But a lack of common sense is one of the largest problem that faces western society today.

I think we need to keep redefining everything we know in order to advance.

Political Correctness in western society is a huge problem for addressing race issues. People are so over sensitive that even mentioning another's race can be socially unacceptable. Then you have people approaching matters from a "common sense" point of view afraid to contribute to the conversation for fear of being ridiculed and labeled.

A reasonable person can see that participating in a "racist" joke is not an indicator that the parties hate or have malicious intent towards another race. We tell dead baby jokes and black-eyed women in the kitchen jokes and no-one accuses us of hating babies or women. Race jokes are funny. Look how much time stand-up comics of all races spend in pointing out our cultural differences. This isn't malicious, but when it's portrayed as such, it hinders discussion of real issues.

I'll give an example of how ridiculous PC has become in the West. My wife and I frequent a Chinese restaurant run by an immigrant family. I'm American, she's Thai. One of the young men that works there is in good shape. I comment to my wife, "I wonder if he trains Kung Fu." She say, "so ask him."

Now I have to try to explain to her why that is perceived by the other Americans as stereotyping and why it's ok for me to ask a random white guy if he studies Kung Fu, but it may be considered racist, or in bad taste, to ask a Chinese man the same question.

To her this is all absurd. Kung Fu comes from China, he's Chinese and works out. It's a legitimate question and there's certainly a higher probability that a Chinese immigrant may have studied the art then a Sudanese immigrant. I am in no way under the assumption that everyone who is Chinese studies Kung Fu.
And so this how the rest of the non PC world reacts, but in the West we can't say such things in mixed company or with strangers.

I've mentioned in conversation before the fact that blacks compromise the largest population of prison inmates in the USA. The mere quoting of statistics brings out accusations of racism.

Whether I am using the data to support a claim that blacks are more likely to be criminals, or more likely to be the victim of an inherently racist prison industry or that there may be larger socioeconomic factors at play matters not. I become labeled a racist simply by quoting a fact that may be perceived as stereotyping.

So, if we as a society can't say "they eat tacos in Mexico," without being attacked by the PC crowd, how can we ever hope to address serious racial issues like the prison industry or our manufactured welfare state?

[Syn7]

But a lack of common sense is one of the largest problem that faces western society today.

I think we need to keep redefining everything we know in order to advance.

So you go with it? nah.

You fight it with knowledge and that is progress. Giving into *******izations weaken us all.

[RenDaHai]

So you go with it? nah.

You fight it with knowledge and that is progress. Giving into *******izations weaken us all.

Well I agree.

But the thing is I believe it may be an unchangeable aspect of the world that a vast number of us are stupid or immoral or both. It may be beyond our power to change.

If we were all in possession of a reasonable degree of common sense then we wouldn't need any laws or rules to govern ourselves. Rules are there for the people who don't, or perhaps do not have the capacity to, understand them.

Thus these rules need to be constantly redefined to make sure there is less possibility for people who are ignorant or immoral to abuse them.

Racism is one of those things. Political Correctness is exploited by the immoral and used inappropriately by the stupid. Clearer definitions make this happen less.

I want to understand the core features of what really makes something racist so I can argue about it with more precision. I feel like I understand what it is but find it difficult to put into concise words.

[David Jamieson]

racism = fearful ignorance. Period.

[RenDaHai]

racism = fearful ignorance. Period.

Thats fine. But that definition doesn't stop the accusation of racism being misused because its not clear enough.

[David Jamieson]

Thats fine. But that definition doesn't stop the accusation of racism being misused because its not clear enough.

The only mind you can change is your own.

[GeneChing]

...but we'll indulge this thread for now...hasn't crossed any lines...yet.

[David Jamieson]

...but we'll indulge this thread for now...hasn't crossed any lines...yet.

It's not political correctness, it's a lack of will to see humans as humans and to constantly reject anyone and anything that is not like the majority.

the problem is people projecting their crappy attitudes onto other people and then shutting them out of actively participating in the whole, this in turn generates spite and the whole things spirals downwards because no one wants to man up and say it clearly that no one is inherently better than anyone else. No one has a life that is worth more or less than anyone else's, lest they forfeit that through their own behaviours (murder etc).

People will deflect the result of their own actions and after creating intolerable circumstances for an identified segment of the community and then blaming the community it vilifies for not fitting in.

It is ridiculous. You cannot chain a dog up in your yard and beat it and then expect it to do tricks for cookies. That is the reality of it.

[RenDaHai]

...but we'll indulge this thread for now...hasn't crossed any lines...yet.

Cheers Gene, I fully appreciate what goes on inside this forum reflects on KFM and so sensitive issues have to be treated delicately. But I just wish it wasn't such a sensitive issue. It should be absolutely fine to talk about racism. But the topic instantly sends up red flags and we all have to choose our words super carefully.

[Jimbo]

Racist people are of any color/nationality. As are good people. But I'm willing to bet that everyone has, at one time or other, had a racist thought now and then. And it's not always because the thinker is a full-on racist, but because it's the lowest denominator they can grasp at, such as if someone of a certain race cuts someone else off in traffic. It's not proper, but it does happen.

Also, some of the most racist people are highly educated, wear suits and ties, speak in proper grammar, and rarely if ever utter curse words or racial slurs. Quite unlike the typical stereotype of the 'rabidly racist redneck'.

Race jokes can be funny if they aren't insulting. What is beyond tiring, however, is when someone is constantly being judged because of their race. Such as, "Oh, you're Asian, you should know so-and-so because he's Asian, too," or worse. That's only a very kind example. If you're in the U.S., and you're white, it's difficult to get it, unless you've experienced it. And you can go most places in the country and not be judged as different, race-wise, excluding certain areas in town. And there aren't the racial slurs for whites that are equivalent to those for other races.

Anyway, my .02.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't confuse racism with:
Culturalisim
Elitisim

[RenDaHai]

No one is inherently better than anyone else. No one has a life that is worth more or less than anyone else's, lest they forfeit that through their own behaviours (murder etc).
.

No we get down to it.

Fantastic.

This is an enlightened observation but it counters itself. You have made provisions for the Murderer. He ignores the human rights of another person and in turn should forfeit his own rights. On this we are in agreement. But where do we draw this line? Only at murder? Are we interested in the result of the action or the intent behind it? What about attempted murder, where is this person on the scale?

Surely then the truth is that peoples lives are NOT equal. Its just that the universe is so complex that we can never weigh one mans life against another, so we have to consider lives to be of equal worth unless overwhelming evidence (such as murder) makes the judgement obvious.

Now this may seem like an inconsequential difference since it does not change the fact that we still respect all lives equally. However it does invalidate extensions of the principle that everyone is equal.

So what is it? Are all people intrinsically equal OR are people only assumed equal until proven otherwise?

[David Jamieson]

No we get down to it.

Fantastic.

This is an enlightened observation but it counters itself. You have made provisions for the Murderer. He ignores the human rights of another person and in turn should forfeit his own rights. On this we are in agreement. But where do we draw this line? Only at murder? Are we interested in the result of the action or the intent behind it? What about attempted murder, where is this person on the scale?

Surely then the truth is that peoples lives are NOT equal. Its just that the universe is so complex that we can never weigh one mans life against another, so we have to consider lives to be of equal worth unless overwhelming evidence (such as murder) makes the judgement obvious.

Now this may seem like an inconsequential difference since it does not change the fact that we still respect all lives equally. However it does invalidate extensions of the principle that everyone is equal.

So what is it? Are all people intrinsically equal OR are people only assumed equal until proven otherwise?

Rule of law is where we draw the line. No one of us is so fabulous as to be the one who decides. Universal morality and rule of law help us determine who has breached and who abides.

This is always in flux (rule of law) and adapts to the spirit of the times to ensure that people are dealt with fairly. Of course, this isn't true of a great many places and it is one groups idea of morality over another and may the strongest win.

Eventually, we should be able to cross the divide and put away our petty views of what constitutes a human being and what doesn't.

For what it's worth, where there is yin, there is yang. All yang contains Yin and vice versa. There is no black and white solution and it is folly to seek that. It must be an ever changing thing that moves towards egalitarian,free and filial relations between us each and all.

[Syn7]

I think people should just call it what it is, insecurity and hate. Why confuse the issue with multiple definitions that don't always match the intended definitions of the words they choose to use?


Whats wrong Gene? You afraid some ************ is gonna ****** and ***** to a bunch of ****** for ********** and ***** like the ********* they are?






(jokes, they're just random stars)

[Syn7]

Rule of law is where we draw the line. No one of us is so fabulous as to be the one who decides. Universal morality and rule of law help us determine who has breached and who abides.

This is always in flux (rule of law) and adapts to the spirit of the times to ensure that people are dealt with fairly. Of course, this isn't true of a great many places and it is one groups idea of morality over another and may the strongest win.

Eventually, we should be able to cross the divide and put away our petty views of what constitutes a human being and what doesn't.

For what it's worth, where there is yin, there is yang. All yang contains Yin and vice versa. There is no black and white solution and it is folly to seek that. It must be an ever changing thing that moves towards egalitarian,free and filial relations between us each and all.


Adapt or die, it's the law. The only real law we have. The rest are just social constructs struggling to keep up with our nature.

[bawang]

Adapt or die, it's the law. The only real law we have. The rest are just social constructs struggling to keep up with our nature.

but you couldnt adapt to the hordes of chinese being all rude and spitting everywhere in toronto. thats the future, babby.

[Syn7]

but you couldnt adapt to the hordes of chinese being all rude and spitting everywhere in toronto. thats the future, babby.

Why would I have to adapt to anything in TO? It's like the a boring version of NY without all the great stuff! The only think useful about TO, from my perspective, is the airport. I did a few shows out there in the club district. Not a place I really wanna go back to. I pretty much did my thing, got my money and hung out in the hotel till it was time to go.

As for Vancouver, I feel at home in Chinatown. In fact I feel at home everywhere in this city. We grew up VERY multicultural, it's just normal to me.

Besides, Chinese immigration will start to reverse by 2020. Won't be long till whiteboys are going there for work.

[Faruq]

Racing is when two or more people fix a specific task to be accomplished and compete to see who can finish in the shortest amount of time!

More come types of racing include, running, car driving, swimming, rowing, skiing, etc.

It is a perfectly harmless activity performed for fun, entertainment the for the acquisition of fame and fortune!


And as anyone who's seen the documentary "The Ballad of Ricky Bobby" knows; racing can also be very dangerous!!!

[Kellen Bassette]

If we were all in possession of a reasonable degree of common sense then we wouldn't need any laws or rules to govern ourselves. Rules are there for the people who don't, or perhaps do not have the capacity to, understand them.



Well, your always going to have the "evil" people who will take advantage of the weaker...But as for common sense laws, society is run by the wealthy and privileged, with the educated and intelligent, (these are not the same things), occasionally getting positions of power.

Culture doesn't evolve at the same pace as structured society. You always end up with the elite ruling the peasants...and a simple trip to Wal Mart will confirm that most people aren't yet ready to live in an "enlightened" culture.

At any rate, 500 years from now we will all be looked back upon as savages.

[bawang]

At any rate, 500 years from now we will all be looked back upon as savages.

500 years?



Culture doesn't evolve at the same pace as structured society. You always end up with the elite ruling the peasants

american culture promotes elitism. the ultimate dream is to not work. failing that, work as little with the least exertion and intensity as possible.

[Drake]

500 years?


american culture promotes elitism. the ultimate dream is to not work. failing that, work as little with the least exertion and intensity as possible.

EXACTLY 500 years.


Racism is acknowledging that a 6'4", 250lb black man will likely beat you to death, with his bare hands, regardless of how many years you study kung foo.

[RenDaHai]

american culture promotes elitism. the ultimate dream is to not work. failing that, work as little with the least exertion and intensity as possible.

But isn't some degree of elitism good? I mean if you let the peasants rule you get stuff like the cultural revolution happening.

It depends how you use the term, but elitism can be used to imply a kind of meritocracy. (Meritocracy is a system of governance in which power is vested in individuals according to merit. Advancement in such a system is based on intellectual talent measured through examination and/or demonstrated achievement in the field where it is implemented.)

I mean, this seems like a generally good idea.

There is not a problem in principle with having an elite class, especially if they are wiser than most. The problem is is that this is not the case in our society. People who become this class are the ones who are adept at exploiting others, not helping them.

This is only our own fault. It is the things we respect and admire. We don't place enough value on great achievements but on superficial ones.

[David Jamieson]

If people invested more time and effort into cultivating their own humanity. Of regulating themselves and their attitudes and less time into trying to control the behaviours of others through social constructs, then, the world would probably be a better place just from the conscientiousness of everyone.

Fwiw, I believe the ultimate elitist model that would be viable for a society is that which is found in Republic by Plato. The actual cultivation of people to lead who are brought up to do that from birth and do not have to do anything else but take care of the society and the people within.

Could be an unrealistic Utopia. Probably is when you consider the common person and their desires. But still, on paper, I think PLato had some good ideas about how to create a society.

[RenDaHai]

I think one of the roots of Racism is Culturalism (that is emphasising the importance of culture in determining behaviour).

Culture is implanted on us from birth. And cultural values take hundreds of years to evolve. As every generation teaches the next, so the flaws of that generation are implanted to some extent on the next.

It is undeniable that some cultures are certainly more primitive than others. What is illogical is to assume this is ethnicity based. The culture you have grown up with will have far more effect on your behaviour than your race will. But does that mean that someone from a more primitive culture will therefore be a more primitive person? This is where one root of racism is. It is a bad conclusion to draw because it ignores the potential of the person. It ignores what they are capable of but condemns them for their lack of opportunity, which is of course unfair.

However here we get into a problem. Relativism. When we try to be fair we make another false assumption. That all cultures and ideologies should be equally respected. NO! Simply. It is fine and good to be against some ideologies and some cultures. Being a Nazi IS wrong. Sharia Law IS primitive. Socialism does NOT work. Surely we need to be confident enough to disrespect these ideologies but at the same time NOT disrespect another Human being for holding them. And this is a difficult thing to do.

[David Jamieson]

I think one of the roots of Racism is Culturalism (that is emphasising the importance of culture in determining behaviour).

Culture is implanted on us from birth. And cultural values take hundreds of years to evolve. As every generation teaches the next, so the flaws of that generation are implanted to some extent on the next.

It is undeniable that some cultures are certainly more primitive than others. What is illogical is to assume this is ethnicity based. The culture you have grown up with will have far more effect on your behaviour than your race will. But does that mean that someone from a more primitive culture will therefore be a more primitive person? This is where one root of racism is. It is a bad conclusion to draw because it ignores the potential of the person. It ignores what they are capable of but condemns them for their lack of opportunity, which is of course unfair.

However here we get into a problem. Relativism. When we try to be fair we make another false assumption. That all cultures and ideologies should be equally respected. NO! Simply. It is fine and good to be against some ideologies and some cultures. Being a Nazi IS wrong. Sharia Law IS primitive. Socialism does NOT work. Surely we need to be confident enough to disrespect these ideologies but at the same time NOT disrespect another Human being for holding them. And this is a difficult thing to do.


I believe cultural identity is important as it gives people meaning and purpose in some respects. It is to be shared, not held over someone. that is an error that gets made because people feel they are superior based on what they have.

For instance, for some reason in North America, people think that intelligence is associated with wealth for a great part. This of course isn't true at all and wealth is not an actual measure of overall intelligence. So, that's an issue, IE: Hubris.

Being a nazi is illegal where I am, so yes, it is wrong to institutionalize hatred.
Sharia law is an attempt at mixing religion with matters of state. this is a recipe for disaster no matter what religion or what state. Not everyone thinks and feels the same an not everyone believes the same thing, so state religions are by that aspect, a throwback, old thinking and un-progressive.
Socialism has aspect of it that work.

Your public roads, your police service, your fire service, your public schools, your libraries etc etc. Everyone puts into the pot and everyone can benefit from these services. That is socialism when it works. That is to say, the services provided must be agreed upon as to what everyone is willing to chip in for.

A bad form of it is when it becomes overarching and inhibits freedom and innovation because of state control. So, economically, a total socialist state is not viable as was demonstrated with the collapse of the USSR and is also evident by the Chinese adoption of capitalism in order to lift hundreds of millions of people out of crushing poverty that was brought on during the hardline communist years.

Cultural relativism hasn't been acceptable for a while. I think that was made abundantly clear in the last decade alone. Pluralism is another thing though. We must recognize that despite our own ignorance there has to be reason for implementations of laws an practices in a society that we may or may not be aware of. But, if people are being harmed because of what other people "believe" then that is plain old "wrong". There really isn't a grey area when harm is done to innocents.

[RenDaHai]

Cultural relativism hasn't been acceptable for a while. I think that was made abundantly clear in the last decade alone. Pluralism is another thing though. We must recognize that despite our own ignorance there has to be reason for implementations of laws an practices in a society that we may or may not be aware of. But, if people are being harmed because of what other people "believe" then that is plain old "wrong". There really isn't a grey area when harm is done to innocents.

Well said.

The thing is there are a lot of people who consider themselves enlightened and will label you a bigot if you adopt anything other than the stance of cultural relativism. I think it is because for stupid people something like relativism is easy to understand and seems fair and it absolves you from having to form opinions.

It is probably less of a problem in Canada and the U.S but in Europe it is a big thing. Everyone is so fearful of stating an opinion on anything close to this topic as apparently to be strong in your convictions equates to political suicide. People seem to find it impossible to separate emotion from argument. Offense is taken at every turn.

[David Jamieson]

Well said.

The thing is there are a lot of people who consider themselves enlightened and will label you a bigot if you adopt anything other than the stance of cultural relativism. I think it is because for stupid people something like relativism is easy to understand and seems fair and it absolves you from having to form opinions.

It is probably less of a problem in Canada and the U.S but in Europe it is a big thing. Everyone is so fearful of stating an opinion on anything close to this topic as apparently to be strong in your convictions equates to political suicide. People seem to find it impossible to separate emotion from argument. Offense is taken at every turn.

Then it behooves people to educate themselves.
People have for the most always participated in the sheep mentality.
Those who speak out are generally rejected at first, ridiculed and persecuted as the truth comes out, then, they finally gain acceptance.

people simply are not good with dealing with change despite the fact that this is the constant in their lives.

we are odd creatures, that is for certain.