Wing chun vids share please take 2 [Archive] - Page 2

Frost

01-28-2013, 08:49 AM

Manchester United? Would they kill me or buy me a round?

Looks like a riot. A little rougher than rival college American football games, but the basic chaos of a small riot. there.

Its not actually like the chaos of a small riot its much worse, It was a lot of times a carefully planned assault on rival firms using tactics such as bottlenecking rival fans, cornering them and so forth. And if you were caught up in it you would be at risk because the focal point shifted from area to area, different gangs would attack different pockets of away fans to ensure people couldn’t escape in any direction

These days its not as bad, but back in the 80’s/early 90’s guys would go round in groups (anywhere from 50-200 hardcore guys) tooled up looking for trouble with other rival football gangs: chealsea millwall, United, wimboldon, portsouth, Sunderland, Leicester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Celtic (now that rivalry ended up in a few deaths) and so on,

Most clubs had such a gang, they went armed with Stanley knifes, bats, screwdrivers, machetes etc looking to hurt and maim each other, the football wasn’t the reason for the fighting (some weren’t even fans of the teams), it was a venue to meet at to start trouble.

Rival gangs would arrange to meet on game days at certain venues, they would study the police and emergency response patterns to see where best to meet to ensure they could have a good battle before the law could respond, deaths between the gangs both domestically and in Europe (the Dutch and Germans were as bad, and these days its just as bad in eastern Europe) even to this day certain welsh teams aren’t allowed to travel or buy tickets to rival games, others have to be escorted by police riot vans to their segregated seats and escorted back to the trains.

People outside the Uk and Europe don’t really understand how bad this stuff got, its like nothing seen elsewhere outside of a war zone lol, and I don’t say that lightly if you ever watch how a football match is policed it is the same as looking after a riot zone

and as a united fan you would have been stabbed and left to bleed lol

k gledhill

01-28-2013, 09:00 AM

Manchester United? Would they kill me or buy me a round?

Looks like a riot. A little rougher than rival college American football games, but the basic chaos of a small riot. Ironically about 95% of the people you see in this clip are in very little danger. Those acting like they want to fight probably will get what they want and get a couple false cracks too. Keep your head down and keep walking until out of the area IMO. Pepper spray and/or mace would be a better option than squaring off in the VT stance IMO. Most fighting in these scenarios is unskilled.

Yeah, better than 50% of the MMA guys I train with work the doors. You hear crazy stories about once every couple months. They usually tell stories on each other because the first rule of the door is what you brag about can be subpoena'd. Maybe not in the UK though?

No but mechanics don't change. If I have mount and they are defending with a 3 pint beer jug obviously you'd punch around it. Or take it away, have a swig, then hit them with it. Under mount being gnp with a mug? Don't get there. If you do you better wrap the beer jug arm and bridge and roll quick before you're out cold. A foette to the gut won't quite cut it there.

I like that you would take the jug and drink before responding, now thats classy ;)

A guy I knew who was just 'big' doing security on an x mass ****up brawl, he got dropped and isolated as 3 security one being me had to fight a large crew..long story the big guy had a 3 pint glass jug smashed in his face ALONGwith other guys kicking him at the same time...I had to do stand up, ground fighting and multiple attackers all in one fight ...I hit a guy with a bar stool...kicked another guy, stopped him.. finger jabbed a guy in the eye stopping him and knocked out another with a facing vt punch to the jaw...they ran for it several got arrested..I had to go to court...crazy times

Wayfaring

01-28-2013, 09:46 AM

I like that you would take the jug and drink before responding, now thats classy ;)

A guy I knew who was just 'big' doing security on an x mass ****up brawl, he got dropped and isolated as 3 security one being me had to fight a large crew..long story the big guy had a 3 pint glass jug smashed in his face ALONGwith other guys kicking him at the same time...I had to do stand up, ground fighting and multiple attackers all in one fight ...I hit a guy with a bar stool...kicked another guy, stopped him.. finger jabbed a guy in the eye stopping him and knocked out another with a facing vt punch to the jaw...they ran for it several got arrested..I had to go to court...crazy times

A friend of mine - a girl who is a little bitty thing about 90 lbs soaking wet has a similar story about a drink glass like that. She literally looks like Barbie - and naturally gets hit on all day long in any kind of a pub scenario. Don't know if it was PMS or what but one night she had enough of one persistent drunk. He kept putting his hands on her, and her boyfriend who is large enough to prevent that activity with a sideways glance wasn't there (6'8", 275, specimen, NFL combine). Neither were her friends like me and crew. So she gets angry enough her aggro streak comes out and smashes a rocks glass entirely into the side of the drunk's face. She had a pretty good windup on the swing and the glass breaks upon impact with the face. Shards pretty much cut the guys face to shreds - she ends up doing 7 days in county and a huge fine. The guy is pretty much marred for life barring a plastic surgeon.

Real life situations are many times a lot different than fighting...

Ali. R

01-28-2013, 04:57 PM

See, a lot of times you’ll find some guys with a whole lot of hard hitting talent, because they're just born with it, or their father’s threw them to the lions at a very young age, I’d said that because you can see a lot of guys that trained for years, but when it really comes down to hitting anyone with great form and power (truly recognizing what they’re doing) they’ll always come up short of a good follow through with real knock out power.

And that’s because they grew up without a lot of real physical hand contact at a very young age, so they’re not comfortable standing in front of someone with their hands up, but will spend more time kicking or falling to the ground while trying their best to survive with whatever, because they just didn’t have that competitive frame of mind dealing with an one on one situation in the stand up as a very young kid or in their teens.

It was ‘Roman Greco Wrestling’ and ‘Boxing’ at the age of 8 until now, which made me mentally strong to deal with people 5 to 10 years older than myself. H3ll at the age of 15/16, I was beating up fathers of guys I knew growing up with. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve took a lot of a$$ whoopings, but not outside of my family (father/5 brothers) and Saturday afternoon boxing events in my father’s backyard as a kid. And there was no crying either, my dad use to say; “I didn’t bring up no punks”. Just couldn’t show any weakness in front of him.

You can have all the best learning/training in the world, but that wouldn’t give you the experience to stand up very long against anyone and you can have all the experience in the world far as drills and sparring (must compete), but that wouldn’t give you the heart to continue trading punches with someone while having good balance and structure, especially when you feel like you can barely stand up yourself, you get heart from competing. But lots of people can’t tell the differences between heart and stupidity.

Bottom-line is, it’s not the art but the true fighting heart one has behind it. I’d remember growing up as a kid watching my mom cringe through the kitchen window while washing dishes looking into the backyard, as my father and his friends sat in lawn chairs with a pint of gin and smoking unfiltered ‘Pal Mals’ cigarettes cheering every bout like they were at the ‘Joe Louis Area’ or something (mid 70’s). What I’m saying is, if you’re trying to gain a fighting sprit while in your late thirties or even twenties, you’re going to take a lot of awkward a$$ whoopings in the process when dealing with an art such as ‘Kung Fu’ in general.

Wayfaring

01-28-2013, 07:36 PM

People outside the Uk and Europe don’t really understand how bad this stuff got, its like nothing seen elsewhere outside of a war zone lol, and I don’t say that lightly if you ever watch how a football match is policed it is the same as looking after a riot zone

and as a united fan you would have been stabbed and left to bleed lol

gotcha Frost. Sounds like rival gang activity more than a sports riot now that you've explained more. We have gangs in the US. But we're all gun crazy over here. Gang activity usually consists of drive-by shootings with automatic weapons like the Uzi, or a 12 yr old popping someone with a 9mm as an initiation rite. That's in the worst areas. Random fire and random deaths. They don't use sporting events as an excuse to fight. If we had more gun control that would probably be more like what you're describing. And depending on the area I'm sure they've got more or less weapons.

To me that stuff of the video and what you're describing isn't so much like fighting as it is gathering your crew and escaping. That would be what I'd be doing. Running like hell like most fools in the video. I guess if you get cornered you would have to make something happen. But fighting? No way. Square up like Bruce Lee and you'd have a dozen rusty screwdriver holes in you. Not for me man. They can stab the soles of my shoes as they kick up dust while I'm sprinting in the other direction.

Wayfaring

01-28-2013, 08:03 PM

Bottom-line is, it’s not the art but the true fighting heart one has behind it. I’d remember growing up as a kid watching my mom cringe through the kitchen window while washing dishes looking into the backyard, as my father and his friends sat in lawn chairs with a pint of gin and smoking unfiltered ‘Pal Mals’ cigarettes cheering every bout like they were at the ‘Joe Louis Area’ or something (mid 70’s). What I’m saying is, if you’re trying to gain a fighting sprit while in your late thirties or even twenties, you’re going to take a lot of awkward a$$ whoopings in the process when dealing with an art such as ‘Kung Fu’ in general.

I know what you're saying about building resolve and a fighting heart. It's hard to throw back when you're getting beat, to get up when you're down and someone doesn't want to let you up and is trying to finish you, to gather yourself when you feel you can't. It's hard on the body, the emotions, the self image. But you do build an indomitable spirit from it, and a resolve to finish so you aren't finished.

I guess lately I'm more about trying to gain a peaceful spirit than a fighting spirit. I do like to throw leather with the young guns to stay in shape and age gracefully though.

Ali. R

01-28-2013, 08:22 PM

I know what you're saying about building resolve and a fighting heart. It's hard to throw back when you're getting beat, to get up when you're down and someone doesn't want to let you up and is trying to finish you, to gather yourself when you feel you can't. It's hard on the body, the emotions, the self image. But you do build an indomitable spirit from it, and a resolve to finish so you aren't finished.

I guess lately I'm more about trying to gain a peaceful spirit than a fighting spirit. I do like to throw leather with the young guns to stay in shape and age gracefully though.

You’re 100% right on the money, when you hit a certain age and your resolve doesn’t feel complete, take it in small steps but as often as you can, but as long if you fight with heart (bring your best but without deviation) no matter how much it hurts or seem not to work can only make you a better technician. And that’s what I was taught fighting with heart is all about.

Ali. R

01-28-2013, 08:42 PM

My ‘Wing Chun Master’ use to say, “When someone breaks all the rules and principles from what they were taught in the heat of combat; it is the way of a coward or novice".

Ali. R

01-29-2013, 09:19 AM

This is the main problem dealing with wing chun full contact. The reason why most wing chun practitioners start off moving like ‘Sugar Ray Robinson’ (http://youtu.be/jjhdk0aUgf0)and just before the point of contact turn into ‘Jerry Lewis’ (http://youtu.be/LSAXPzcFupM)with no reference of power, is because it’s their teachers fault. They’d never taught them the first thing about sparring but would only tell them to “get in there and do your best”. While gloating and being proud of what they see (shame).

Most sifus will say (http://youtu.be/2YXwHBzKGQM); “you’ll never make it look like the way it does in form or in drills”, that’s BS. Those fighting applications should be highly recognizable, tell that to a Boxer, Swordsman or a Muay Thai practitioner. It’s because they’d never sparred with their sifus and was never taught to put the many platforms of wing chun together within in a sparring situation. In most cases, many sifus just don’t know the first thing about it. This is why most (sifus) just don’t spar with their students because it WILL show how sloppy and weak they really are.

I’ve trained in Boxing, Wing Chun and Wrestling almost half my life; and in some cases, more years than that. Not just blowing my horn but only to say that they’d all had something in common and that was good teaching, because they all taught me how to spar outside of the many platforms in which I’d developed.

First thing first, develop a natural sense of moving dealing with the feet following the hands and train the heck out of ‘Mon Sao’ asking hand offensively and defensively, and that’s a good start because it will keep you in the pocket with power, while keeping you from deviating from good wing chun principles/form and will turn this statement into a lie at the same time, “you’ll never make it look like the way it does in from or in drills”. Don’t take my word on it, asks your sifu to spar with you and all will be shown.

Wayfaring

01-29-2013, 12:47 PM

My ‘Wing Chun Master’ use to say, “When someone breaks all the rules and principles from what they were taught in the heat of combat; it is the way of a coward or novice".

I think the problem with this is training methods. If all people do is light touch contact, light contact chi sau, and never get their heart rate above 100BPM in an entire training session, that is a breeding ground for this problem. And there are many, many WCK schools this describes. And that attracts businessmen who want to buy into the hype and magic stories but don't want to work out hard to stay in shape and advance fighting skills.

Then when faced with an escalated situation, they simply don't have any experience to draw upon, so they revert back to primitive fight/flight instinct and tense up, move like a robot, and burn themselves out in :30 with an adrenaline dump.

Many people simply haven't experienced the reality of your backyard BBQ's with the boys needing to scrap and put on a good show before getting their food. Many have never done anything like that ever. Some have in other settings.

It's difficult to get people to spar hard. Most revert to light and slap fighting. This is why the MMA scene is good. You have guys that HAVE to get rounds in to prepare for their upcoming fights. And they HAVE to make those rounds hard and live - they know it, the coaches know it, partners know it. The impending conflict and the fear of not being prepared for it steps up the preparation.

Ali. R

01-29-2013, 01:28 PM

Again you’re right, and that's why most who train in a traditional kung fu art so late in their lives should cherish the knowledge that they get from their system and take it on a education/metaphysical concept or frame or mind, rather than trying to fight with it on a regular bases .

Been on a wrestling team for 12 years, a boxing team for almost 20 years, did many kung fu tournaments as well , so you’re right. It would take a considerable amount of time to be a proficient fighter in kung fu while being a sifu as well; in the later days of ones life.

But what I’m getting at; is that if you really need to learn how to fight being in your late 20’s, learn from a fighter and not a wing chun choreographer. Because; nine times out of ten, you could hand him his own a$$ back to him. And that’s why many won’t show their fighting skills in real time (sifu/masters).

anerlich

01-30-2013, 02:10 PM

I killed 73 men in a bar brawl once, using the tan sao that PB and his students erroneously claim is useless.

Fools.

I then brought them back to life using the Yik Kam transform.

GlennR

01-30-2013, 02:28 PM

I killed 73 men in a bar brawl once, using the tan sao that PB and his students erroneously claim is useless.

Fools.

I then brought them back to life using the Yik Kam transform.

And if the Yik Kam transform hadnt worked ,you could have buried the bodies under the 5 layers

Ali. R

01-30-2013, 02:43 PM

Man, you guys are killing me for real, that’s funny!!! The best I’ve seen yet and without props.:)

LMAO,

anerlich

01-30-2013, 05:22 PM

And if the Yik Kam transform hadnt worked ,you could have buried the bodies under the 5 layers

Or removed myself from the scene of the crime into a parallel universe where it never happened, using the six dimensional force vectors.

wingchunIan

01-31-2013, 01:13 AM

I killed 73 men in a bar brawl once, using the tan sao that PB and his students erroneously claim is useless.

Fools.

I then brought them back to life using the Yik Kam transform.

made me chuckle :D

Graham H

01-31-2013, 03:06 AM

I killed 73 men in a bar brawl once, using the tan sao that PB and his students erroneously claim is useless.

Fools.

I then brought them back to life using the Yik Kam transform.

Strange! There was me thinking you were just an old washed up idiot who acts like some sort of premadonna that never does anything else apart from hang off the end of other peoples posts with negative comments. You actually are some sort of super hero in actual fact. Well I'll be dammed. :eek:

Instead of making such silly comments Anerlich why don't you give your opinion on why droves of people with years and years of Wing Chun experience in many different lineages go to PB and all of a sudden have their whole idea of Wing Chun turned on its head? They never return to their old lineages either.

I can't wait for your response although it will probably be something idiotic like we are all looking for a father figure or desire to be in some sort of cult. :rolleyes:

Vajramusti

01-31-2013, 05:40 AM

[QUOTE=Graham H;1208786]
Instead of making such silly comments Anerlich why don't you give your opinion on why droves of people with years and years of Wing Chun experience in many different lineages go to PB and all of a sudden have their whole idea of Wing Chun turned on its head? They never return to their old lineages either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Could be they love to lop and lop a bit and then push a bit.

Graham H

01-31-2013, 06:47 AM

Could be they love to lop and lop a bit and then push a bit.

Yes Joy! That's it! All these people from all over go there just because of that. People from all walks of life with different skills sets and intelligence wake up one morning and think to themselves....."I know what...I really like all that pushing stuff that fills up the space on YouTube. I'll just put the last 15 years of Wing Chun training behind me and learn to push and pull all day long. Then I'll go on the internet with the intent of rubbishing all other lineages."

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sean66

01-31-2013, 07:14 AM

Graham H

01-31-2013, 07:36 AM

There is a lot more to it than just lop and push, Vajramusti.

Philipp Bayer is an amazing martial artist, period. He's paid his dues, he's trained like mad for the past thirty years (and continues to do so) and he has attained a level of precision and clarity in his craft that is rare.

The videos of him and his students training show, in my opinion, the most dynamic and powerful wing chun out there.

I've also never heard of someone who wasn't won over by PB's way of doing wing chun after having visited him in Menden.

For all of you in the U.S. it's definitely worth a trip to N.Y. next time he gives a seminar there at Kevin's school.

It's not only the Americans that could do with the visit. The other lot from down under also should go. It will only take one. Until then we can keep on bickering about things that most on here do not understand.

It's not all pointless though Sean. Two people from this forum have already gone because of what I have wrote on the internet.

Some people can see through all the nonsense and even if they went out of curiosity (like I did) it's enough. ;)

The Glenn's, Anerlichs and Vajramustis of this world are just blowing hot air up each others back doors :D

Paddington

01-31-2013, 07:48 AM

Philipp Bayer is an amazing martial artist, period. He's paid his dues, he's trained like mad for the past thirty years (and continues to do so) and he has attained a level of precision and clarity in his craft that is rare.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you on this point. However, whilst all of us can acknowledge that PB has a lot of skill and knowledge in wing chun, he is after all human, flawed and not the font of all wing chun knowledge.

I think the reason why, Sean, that people on these boards are starting to take the Micheal is because many of those advocating PB on these boards, do so in a very immature, rude and overly masculine way. One only needs browse these forums to see that.

It would be interesting to compile all these rude post and to send them to PB to see if he really wants himself to be portrayed as producing arrogant, immature and overly masculine, bully like students.

Vajramusti

01-31-2013, 09:01 AM

[QUOTE=Paddington;1208811]I don't think anyone disagrees with you on this point. However, whilst all of us can acknowledge that PB has a lot of skill and knowledge in wing chun, he is after all human, flawed and not the font of all wing chun knowledge.

-------------------------------------------------------
Looks ok-but the marketing fan club is boring.

Graham H

01-31-2013, 10:30 AM

I think the reason why, Sean, that people on these boards are starting to take the Micheal is because many of those advocating PB on these boards, do so in a very immature, rude and overly masculine way. One only needs browse these forums to see that.

Until you meet one of us in person don't judge! ;)

you muppet! :D

(immature and rude)

Graham H

01-31-2013, 10:31 AM

Vajramusti

01-31-2013, 11:00 AM

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1208815]

Boring on a forum possibly. In the flesh??? Definately not. You too old to change now anyway Joy :D:p
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ha ha-
Cheers true believer on the road to Tarsus!

Wayfaring

01-31-2013, 11:47 AM

Or removed myself from the scene of the crime into a parallel universe where it never happened, using the six dimensional force vectors.

you closed your browser window? works for me...

Wayfaring

01-31-2013, 11:52 AM

Instead of making such silly comments Anerlich why don't you give your opinion on why droves of people with years and years of Wing Chun experience in many different lineages go to PB and all of a sudden have their whole idea of Wing Chun turned on its head? They never return to their old lineages either.

Do you think it could have anything to do with the douchenozzle fanboi personalities of the people in that lineage? I would think that would produce droves of people leaving...

I can't wait for your response although it will probably be something idiotic like we are all looking for a father figure or desire to be in some sort of cult. :rolleyes:

Is this an appropriate place to insert the signature quote "your opponent will show you how to hit them" ????

JPinAZ

01-31-2013, 12:28 PM

Yes Joy! That's it! All these people from all over go there just because of that. People from all walks of life with different skills sets and intelligence wake up one morning and think to themselves....."I know what...I really like all that pushing stuff that fills up the space on YouTube. I'll just put the last 15 years of Wing Chun training behind me and learn to push and pull all day long. Then I'll go on the internet with the intent of rubbishing all other lineages."

Haha, besides the lap, lap, push stuff, I think it's probably all of the profound "tan is a punch" "fook is a punch" talk that turns them into followers - oops, I mean't believers... ;)

anerlich

01-31-2013, 02:18 PM

Strange! There was me thinking you were just an old washed up idiot who acts like some sort of premadonna that never does anything else apart from hang off the end of other peoples posts with negative comments. You actually are some sort of super hero in actual fact. Well I'll be dammed.

* Prima Donna
* d a m n e d (unless you have constipation, which might explain the pugnacity)

I'm a premadonna [sic], huh?

Am I the one making claims that my instructor is better than anyone else, and if someone doesn't DO WHAT I SAY and go train with him immediately then they're an idiot?

Am I the one claiming access to special knowledge, skills, or understanding, or being born again into Wing Chun heaven?

You're the one frothing at the mouth demanding that people visit Bayer and then insulting or threatening them when they don't jump to your demands immediately, and remain unmoved and underwhelmed by your harangues, let alone dare to suggest that maybe you bang on about him a bit too much. Sounds pretty premadonnaish [sic] to me.

Instead of making such silly comments Anerlich why don't you give your opinion on why droves of people with years and years of Wing Chun experience in many different lineages go to PB and all of a sudden have their whole idea of Wing Chun turned on its head? They never return to their old lineages either.

How TF would I know what motivates them? Are you asking for my unqualified
psychological opinion?

An oversupply of gullibility? One possible answer.

Some people go to PB. Others have sex changes, get body mods that make them look like lizards, or go on killing sprees. They never return to their old ways of life either. What can I say? People are weird.

I can't wait for your response although it will probably be something idiotic like we are all looking for a father figure or desire to be in some sort of cult.

Your wait is over! Feel better now? Idiotic enough for you, or should I try harder?

If you don't want anyone to accuse you of being a cult member, maybe stop acting like one?

Until you meet one of us in person don't judge!

Good advice. You should take it!

The other lot from down under also should go. It will only take one.

The "other lot"? Darth GlennR and me, evil imperialists marching in lockstep against the Bayer rebel alliance?

Look, you ain't going spend thousands of pounds to come to AUS to see my guy, and I'm not not going to risk any of my hard-earned going to Europe to see yours based on a plethora of youtube chi sao vids and an even greater number of absurd, one-eyed, fanboyistic rants on the forum.

I have a long list of gyms I'd like to train at, Bayer's might get on there but his position would probably be in the low 400's. IOW, it's never going to happen.

You'll have to work on Glenn - I've crossed over to the Dark Side and there's no coming back.

Two people from this forum have already gone because of what I have wrote on the internet.

* written

Do you get a spotter's fee?

"I know what...I really like all that pushing stuff that fills up the space on YouTube. I'll just put the last 15 years of Wing Chun training behind me and learn to push and pull all day long. Then I'll go on the internet with the intent of rubbishing all other lineages."

You've succeeded in implementing that last sentence, at least. Bravo.

The Glenn's, Anerlichs and Vajramustis of this world are just blowing hot air up each others back doors

More pouring gasoline on overheated ranters and watching them self-immolate.

Man, it's a slow day at work today.

Graham H

02-01-2013, 12:47 AM

Haha, besides the lap, lap, push stuff, I think it's probably all of the profound "tan is a punch" "fook is a punch" talk that turns them into followers - oops, I mean't believers... ;)

Yep and for the ones that have made the change "that" way of thinking makes everything clear and answers so many unanswered questions that "other" lineages were able to provide.

All you have to do JP is go back to my internet posts from say 5 years ago and before and you will see my posts were exactly the same as all the doubters on this forum.

In fact there was a well known poster on the boards, who has since unfortunately passed away, that I used to argue with from time to time because his ideas on Ving Tsun were totally different to mine and yet I was an ex instructor for the wong shun leung ving tsun association UK and also became friends with many of the top WSL instructors in the world. He was a student of PB and I used to think "what the f**k is this guy talking about". What I did next was to go and see for myself rather than argue on the internet. Within 5 mins of just talking to PB I basically chucked everything I had learnt about Ving Tsun in the bin and started again. I haven't looked back since albeit to realize that the world of Ving Tsun is very coulourful :D

Graham H

02-01-2013, 12:47 AM

Whoops! forgot to read Aner's post. Oh well :D:D:D:D

k gledhill

02-01-2013, 08:52 AM

k gledhill

02-01-2013, 08:53 AM

* Prima Donna
* d a m n e d (unless you have constipation, which might explain the pugnacity)

I'm a premadonna [sic], huh?

Am I the one making claims that my instructor is better than anyone else, and if someone doesn't DO WHAT I SAY and go train with him immediately then they're an idiot?

Am I the one claiming access to special knowledge, skills, or understanding, or being born again into Wing Chun heaven?

You're the one frothing at the mouth demanding that people visit Bayer and then insulting or threatening them when they don't jump to your demands immediately, and remain unmoved and underwhelmed by your harangues, let alone dare to suggest that maybe you bang on about him a bit too much. Sounds pretty premadonnaish [sic] to me.

How TF would I know what motivates them? Are you asking for my unqualified
psychological opinion?

An oversupply of gullibility? One possible answer.

Some people go to PB. Others have sex changes, get body mods that make them look like lizards, or go on killing sprees. They never return to their old ways of life either. What can I say? People are weird.

Your wait is over! Feel better now? Idiotic enough for you, or should I try harder?

If you don't want anyone to accuse you of being a cult member, maybe stop acting like one?

Good advice. You should take it!

The "other lot"? Darth GlennR and me, evil imperialists marching in lockstep against the Bayer rebel alliance?

Look, you ain't going spend thousands of pounds to come to AUS to see my guy, and I'm not not going to risk any of my hard-earned going to Europe to see yours based on a plethora of youtube chi sao vids and an even greater number of absurd, one-eyed, fanboyistic rants on the forum.

I have a long list of gyms I'd like to train at, Bayer's might get on there but his position would probably be in the low 400's. IOW, it's never going to happen.

You'll have to work on Glenn - I've crossed over to the Dark Side and there's no coming back.

* written

Do you get a spotter's fee?

You've succeeded in implementing that last sentence, at least. Bravo.

More pouring gasoline on overheated ranters and watching them self-immolate.

Man, it's a slow day at work today.

Whoa, who's frothing at the mouth now :D

anerlich

02-01-2013, 10:05 PM

Whoa, who's frothing at the mouth now

Guess I got off Kev's ignore list.

jimhalliwell

02-02-2013, 06:41 AM

True praise indeed love the comment at 41 secs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhwJPUgM--M

Vajramusti

02-02-2013, 06:56 AM

Guess I got off Kev's ignore list.
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Ha HA-folks can still read the regular posts...

k gledhill

02-02-2013, 07:14 AM

A good clip http://youtu.be/s6T_8eJEnxc

k gledhill

02-02-2013, 07:15 AM

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Ha HA-folks can still read the regular posts...

Its hard not to when everyone uses quotes in replies...;)

JPinAZ

02-02-2013, 09:33 AM

Yep and for the ones that have made the change "that" way of thinking makes everything clear and answers so many unanswered questions that "other" lineages were able to provide.

Ok, so what you're saying is, WSL was the only person to get the 'real' goods & answers from Ip Man? Because I am sure that a majority of the people you are talking about that made the change from "other" lineages were still mostly Ip Man lineage WC practitioners. Isn't that still the same lineage?

And I'm not bashing WSL WC either. I believe there are WSL teachers can and do produce good WC fighters & practitioners, as there are in any 'lineage'. But it just amazes me how, if I were to listen to you and some of the other WSL crusaders on this forum, apparently only WSL received the goods and answers to so many unanswered questions where the other IM students didn't.
So was Ip Man just playing a big joke on the rest of his students, including his sons? :confused:

LFJ

02-02-2013, 09:41 AM

So was Ip Man just playing a big joke on the rest of his students, including his sons? :confused:

No. It depends on the individual's practical experience and what they do with their Wing Chun. Some use it and some play it, and that reflects in their training.

anerlich

02-02-2013, 06:45 PM

But it just amazes me how, if I were to listen to you and some of the other WSL crusaders on this forum, apparently only WSL received the goods and answers to so many unanswered questions where the other IM students didn't.

I you believe some here, only WSL was paying attention to YM and only Phillip Bayer was paying attention to WSL. From this track record, it sounds like Phil will end up with only one decent student.

Must be some serious flaws in the pedagogy somewhere ... if you believe all that to be the case, that is.

GlennR

02-03-2013, 08:54 PM

It's not only the Americans that could do with the visit. The other lot from down under also should go. It will only take one. Until then we can keep on bickering about things that most on here do not understand.

So Barry Lee doesnt have a clue then?
Youd be happy to tell him that?

It's not all pointless though Sean. Two people from this forum have already gone because of what I have wrote on the internet.

Well that proves it!!

Some people can see through all the nonsense and even if they went out of curiosity (like I did) it's enough. ;)

Yes, some people can see threw nonsense.

The Glenn's, Anerlichs and Vajramustis of this world are just blowing hot air up each others back doors :D

Well we'd blow air up yours but your head is blocking the way

Graham H

02-04-2013, 01:42 AM

So Barry Lee doesnt have a clue then?
Youd be happy to tell him that?

Trying to put words in my mouth eh Glenn? Nice.

I teach a former student of the Barry Lee way. There are slight differences but as near to my thinking as I have yet seen. WSL taught people to their strengths and weaknesses. Barry and Philipp are two different people. I would have like to meet Barry Lee personally or attend one of his seminars but circumstances haven't allowed it.

Well that proves it!!

There is enough proof out there. Keep poking fun!

Well we'd blow air up yours but your head is blocking the way

You don't know me! Keep that nonsense to yourself!

You are a little bit like Joy. The legs on your table are slowly crumbling and you are losing balance fast. Nothing in your posts but mild insults at best. Keep it up big guy! :D

GlennR

02-04-2013, 03:25 AM

Trying to put words in my mouth eh Glenn? Nice.

Mate, youre telling everyone here that we dont have a clue downunder.... you forget Barry was from here??

I teach a former student of the Barry Lee way. There are slight differences but as near to my thinking as I have yet seen. WSL taught people to their strengths and weaknesses. Barry and Philipp are two different people. I would have like to meet Barry Lee personally or attend one of his seminars but circumstances haven't allowed it.

Not long ago you were rubbishing what he was taught, change of mind G?

There is enough proof out there. Keep poking fun!

I will, now where was that proof again???

You don't know me! Keep that nonsense to yourself!

He who casts stones Graham....

You are a little bit like Joy. The legs on your table are slowly crumbling and you are losing balance fast. Nothing in your posts but mild insults at best. Keep it up big guy! :D

My table is fine Graham, actually i have several and they are all in good condition.
In fact Joy and i have started a table business.
Would you like to buy one?

And ill drop my mild insults when you drop your sycophantic approach to some chap in Germany....... hugs and kisses!

Graham H

02-04-2013, 04:36 AM

Mate, youre telling everyone here that we dont have a clue downunder.... you forget Barry was from here??

I was referring to people on this forum my dear. As for you??? Yep.....I think you don't have a clue about much at all WC wise. Basically your posts rubbish. :)

Not long ago you were rubbishing what he was taught, change of mind G?

I wasn't rubbishing what HE taught! I was rubbishing what I was shown by somebody that was in his lineage. I'm entitled to disagree no matter who it is! Get it right please?

I will, now where was that proof again???

Go fetch Shep!

He who casts stones Graham....

....boring

My table is fine Graham, actually i have several and they are all in good condition.
In fact Joy and i have started a table business.
Would you like to buy one?

No your shop is not very good.

And ill drop my mild insults when you drop your sycophantic approach to some chap in Germany....... hugs and kisses!

Well I'm not going to so keep them coming wifey! xx

JPinAZ

02-04-2013, 10:13 AM

No. It depends on the individual's practical experience and what they do with their Wing Chun. Some use it and some play it, and that reflects in their training.

I wasn't talking about a anyone's skill or personal style - I was referring to the passing on of the WC system itself (which is different IMO) & who learned what in direct reply to Graham's comments on WSL seeming to have all the answers where others don't - which I'm still waiting on his reply..

And I don't mind you answering either, but since you only quoted my final question and not what followed up to it, I think your answer might be a bit out of context :)

GlennR

02-04-2013, 02:19 PM

I was referring to people on this forum my dear. As for you??? Yep.....I think you don't have a clue about much at all WC wise. Basically your posts rubbish. :)

No problem, ill put up some clips from youtube (that arent even mine) and play them infinitum... that better??

I wasn't rubbishing what HE taught! I was rubbishing what I was shown by somebody that was in his lineage. I'm entitled to disagree no matter who it is! Get it right please?

Rubbish, you were

Go fetch Shep!

Woof

....boring

You said it!

No your shop is not very good.

Well I'm not going to so keep them coming wifey! xx

We agree on something!

LFJ

02-04-2013, 10:33 PM

I wasn't talking about a anyone's skill or personal style - I was referring to the passing on of the WC system itself (which is different IMO) & who learned what in direct reply to Graham's comments on WSL seeming to have all the answers where others don't - which I'm still waiting on his reply..

And I don't mind you answering either, but since you only quoted my final question and not what followed up to it, I think your answer might be a bit out of context :)

Well, he and Glen are having another lover's spat. So I guess I'll continue.

My point was that no matter what you learn, if you don't have practical experience testing it in real fights you're bound to have an incomplete understanding of it. If you don't teach it 100% as you learned it, that can later lead to a lot of uninformed assumptions and theories that sound good as theories and may work in cooperative chi-sau, but will lead to failure in actuality.

This is where I think WSL's approach differs drastically from the likes of the Yip brothers, Leung Ting, etc.. WSL knew what wouldn't work in a fight because he had been there. His method was based on his fighting experience, not on his ideas of what fighting was like.

So, WSL maybe didn't get special information from Yip Man that others missed out on, but he did get special information from his fighting experience, which others didn't really have.

That's what I mean by using Wing Chun versus playing Wing Chun. It can be seen even in their approach to chi-sau training. Chi-sau in WSLVT is never a game of stick and follow, "you can't hit me, oh gotcha", which is all to common in some other lineages.

BPWT

02-05-2013, 02:36 AM

This is where I think WSL's approach differs drastically from the likes of the Yip brothers, Leung Ting, etc.. WSL knew what wouldn't work in a fight because he had been there. His method was based on his fighting experience, not on his ideas of what fighting was like.

So, WSL maybe didn't get special information from Yip Man that others missed out on, but he did get special information from his fighting experience, which others didn't really have.

I agree, kinda, with this - fighting experience is necessary to really know. But I think it means you know what works for you. So while I have no problem with the WSL method, it was his method based on what worked for him. Can it be applied by others? Of course. But those others need to test it for real too, if they want to claim that it really does work (for them).

We know that Yip Chun has no real fighting experience (his own admission, I believe), but there are plenty of others who clearly do have - and from most other Yip Man lineage lines. So in this respect I don't see WSL being that different from others.

And besides, experience is subjective. Perhaps I fight and get my ass kicked - lose the fight but learn something important from it.

Here is quote from Duncan Leung (private student of Yip Man, friend to Bruce Lee, and someone who himself has a great deal of real fighting experience). From what I can tell, he had great respect for WSL. But he also once expressed this opinion of the fights he saw involving WSL, and the fights he saw from William Cheung (the two not fighting each other).

From what I had observed, William was my idol. In his fights, William was much more calm and self confident. WSL was wild as always and it didn't matter what his opponent did he just threw a kick and followed by chain punches non-stop.

anerlich

02-05-2013, 03:18 AM

So, WSL maybe didn't get special information from Yip Man that others missed out on, but he did get special information from his fighting experience, which others didn't really have.

Only SOME others. Not all by any means.

Wayfaring

02-05-2013, 11:18 AM

Only SOME others. Not all by any means.

Yeah I don't get the WSL heritage combined with the slap fighting. To me seems to be a lack of congruence. Especially when you see examples out there like Ernie and Gary Lam's fighters.

LFJ

02-05-2013, 06:10 PM

Slap fighting?

Bacon

02-05-2013, 09:32 PM

This is a video I found on how to make cheap padding for a mook jong. It's embedded in the guy's blog and I can't pull out the URL from my phone. If anyone can feel free to repost the video only.

http://apexwingchun.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/video-mook-yan-jong-wooden-dummy-padding-under-20/

k gledhill

02-05-2013, 09:52 PM

Yeah I don't get the WSL heritage combined with the slap fighting. To me seems to be a lack of congruence. Especially when you see examples out there like Ernie and Gary Lam's fighters.

Congruence, have you got a license for such big words ? You sure your parents know you're online ?

anerlich

02-05-2013, 10:14 PM

"Congruence" is smaller than "assumptive egomaniac".

People who live in glass houses, and all that ...

k gledhill

02-05-2013, 10:23 PM

"Congruence" is smaller than "assumptive egomaniac".

People who live in glass houses, and all that ...

You're still uninformed and making assumptions based on .....? clips :D

Wayfaring

02-05-2013, 10:54 PM

You're still uninformed and making assumptions based on .....? clips :D

You know I'm probably uninformed and making assumptions based on clips too. This is why I'm using the word "congruence" - (sorry kev didn't mean to walk outside your vocab there), and pointing out that virtually all of the Phillip Bayer footage I see online looks a lot like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcozWSvpjs

What do I see here? Well, I hear very dramatic music kind of like I'm supposed to be watching two gladiators fight to the death. Then, I see the guy supposedly sparring with Bayer over a 1:34 period never get hit once with a punch, but pushed in the face a dozen times, and pushed back a dozen times. I also see this neat little chop to the neck happen a dozen times, and it's held there to the neck after the slappy impact like the student is supposed to realize he is very close to death's door.

Then I look at other clips, and basically the same pattern repeats itself. A lot of slap and push, and no punching. And I compare this to what I read of WSL's fighting prowess that was tested often by actually punching people, and being in fighting situations where you actually get hit. And I see a problem with that really big vocabulary word there - "congruence".

So kev, once you get done wondering whether or not my 73 year old mother knows I'm on the internet or not, maybe you could explain to me this "congruence" issue.

Or, in other words,

"Why so slappy chappy?"

LFJ

02-05-2013, 11:16 PM

A lot of slap and push, and no punching. And I compare this to what I read of WSL's fighting prowess that was tested often by actually punching people, and being in fighting situations where you actually get hit.

There's your problem. Comparing chi-sau practice to fighting. :rolleyes:

I saw a lot of punching in that clip. Maybe your internet connection is slow? But if you actually punch your partner (which you want to see?) you won't have anyone to train with, or they just won't learn anything.

Mind you... each time you make contact with your palm to your opponent's face and push, that is well understood as easily being a punch to knock your head off in reality. But it's partner practice, not fighting......

Did you ever see WSL practicing chi-sau? Do you see him actually punching David here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvfCJHyui0

What are you going to do now, compare that to his actual fights and say WSL is not in congruence with WSL?

EternalSpring

02-05-2013, 11:29 PM

Tbh, I think PB and WSL kick a$$, and no I'm not of that lineage. That said, youtube/videos are a diff deal imo. PB videos are great, but not anything that another practitioner couldn't do even if their kung fu was average and they were up against someone who was less skilled. It confuses the f*ck out of me when I see random posters criticize other Ving Tsun videos for not being "real fighting" while only posting clips of their Sifus doing chi sao against a student or someone who they know if of a lower skill level.

GlennR

02-05-2013, 11:48 PM

There's your problem. Comparing chi-sau practice to fighting. :rolleyes:

And heres your problem (or more so Graham and Kevin) that the only clips put up, to prove PB's fighting prowess, are indeed chi sao clips.

LFJ

02-05-2013, 11:58 PM

And heres your problem (or more so Graham and Kevin) that the only clips put up, to prove PB's fighting prowess, are indeed chi sao clips.

Chi-sau does show a certain skill, or lack thereof, to a good eye. ;)

GlennR

02-06-2013, 01:37 AM

Chi-sau does show a certain skill, or lack thereof, to a good eye. ;)

All down to eye of the beholder then.

So the question is, who's eye carries more weight

LFJ

02-06-2013, 02:03 AM

No. Not everyone has a good eye to recognize a fighter's attributes in other exercises, especially if one doesn't undertand the exercise they're watching or what fighting is actually like.

Plenty of hand chasers do a great job playing the stick and follow, "you can't hit me, ah ha, gotcha" game convincing themselves and others that they must be amazing fighters or can even defend themselves.

A good eye is a skilled and experienced eye. One that understands what it sees and knows the reality of fighting.

GlennR

02-06-2013, 06:29 AM

LFJ

02-06-2013, 06:48 AM

To a certain extent, sure. You'd at least have experience to know what happens in a fight and could speak on it more than myself if I had no such experience. But then there's still skill and learning to account for. You might not have the same type of training experience to judge what you're seeing in a chi-sau clip and afterall your fight experience may have just been getting your ass whooped a bunch and never learning anything from it. :D

Wayfaring

02-06-2013, 09:01 AM

There's your problem. Comparing chi-sau practice to fighting. :rolleyes:

Many clips I saw like this were labeled "gor sau" or "go sau". I believe this is supposed to indicate more of a live striking environment more like a fight than chi sau. Amiwrong?

I saw a lot of punching in that clip. Maybe your internet connection is slow? But if you actually punch your partner (which you want to see?) you won't have anyone to train with, or they just won't learn anything.

Mind you... each time you make contact with your palm to your opponent's face and push, that is well understood as easily being a punch to knock your head off in reality. But it's partner practice, not fighting......

And here again is this "congruence" issue. Placing a palm on someone's face, a chop next to someone's neck, or pushing someone all have a HUGE difference in dynamic from really hitting someone. Real sparring can be scaled lighter and heavier as well. However what you see in real sparring is body positioning such that you know when a punch is pulled. I suppose I need to define that term. "Pulling" a punch means that all the dynamics of the punch are identical to one that knocks your block off all the way up to the last few inches. Then rapid deceleration takes place to remove the force. This is opposite to "pushing" a punch. "Pushing" a punch means that the dynamics to throw a punch are never there, but the limb is extended out with little to no power until it reaches the resting place. What I see in this clip is "pushing" punches, not "pulling" punches.

The next telling point is that all the little kids in their pumped up kicks on PB's jock here don't see this. They think that these push punches are "well understood as easily being a punch to knock your head off in reality". There is NO amount of "push" punch training that is going to do ANYTHING for your ability to knock anyone's head off. Or even hit them if its an escalated situation. "Pulled" punches WILL train you for live escalated situations.

Did you ever see WSL practicing chi-sau? Do you see him actually punching David here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvfCJHyui0

To me what I see there is WSL doing a sensitivity drill. What's the difference? It doesn't seem to be a semi-escalated chi sau drill moving into sparring / fight / gor sau arena while training the wrong things to be in that arena like slappy strikes and pushed punches.

What are you going to do now, compare that to his actual fights and say WSL is not in congruence with WSL?

Sure I would venture to say that clip with Peterson is quite different from how WSL actually fought. And it sounds like you are on the same page.

JPinAZ

02-06-2013, 01:52 PM

And here again is this "congruence" issue. Placing a palm on someone's face, a chop next to someone's neck, or pushing someone all have a HUGE difference in dynamic from really hitting someone. Real sparring can be scaled lighter and heavier as well. However what you see in real sparring is body positioning such that you know when a punch is pulled. I suppose I need to define that term. "Pulling" a punch means that all the dynamics of the punch are identical to one that knocks your block off all the way up to the last few inches. Then rapid deceleration takes place to remove the force. This is opposite to "pushing" a punch. "Pushing" a punch means that the dynamics to throw a punch are never there, but the limb is extended out with little to no power until it reaches the resting place. What I see in this clip is "pushing" punches, not "pulling" punches.

This is spot on! And point to one of bigger problems I see with people that spend so much time "doing chi sao" to the point where they no longer know or can see the differences you're talking about.

On a semi-related note (and I'm sure I'll catch heat on this from some people here :)):
Imo, all of the squared-up 2-hand connected tan/bong/fook "Chi Saoing" we see is a very specific range and facing and would be a very short timeframe in an actual fight (I'm talking a split second or two at most) - that is, IF it even occurs at all.

Most of the clips showing 2 guys going at it chi saoing for sometimes a minute or two straight is really 180 degrees from what WC should be. I never could wrap my head around it. If one of the guys were to throw just one real punch during any of it, most of the chi sao looping shown would halt almost immediately. And not saying the people in the clips don't have the skills to defend agaisnt a punch (they very well may), but there's no real proof if you jsut watch the clips. And I'm talking more specifically about all the T/B/F and Bong/Laap/Push chis sao looping mega-battles to gladiator music that carry on for sometimes minutes at a time. Fights just don't happen like that.

Sean66

02-06-2013, 02:13 PM

I disagree (respectfully) with your analysis of the PB video, Wayfaring.
I've experienced Philipp live and he is not pushing his punches. He is stopping or "pulling" them before making contact. His pushing the face with the palm is just a way of assuring himself that he is in the right distance to really knock someone's block off. The push is really a punch, but he uses the palm in the interests of his training partner.

The dynamics of his punching are always the same, whether it be in chi sao practice, using the wall bag or heavy bag, or in sparring. PB has ended his share of fights with just one punch.

The fak sau (what you refer to as the chop next to someone's neck) is also "pulled". I've seen a training partner of mine sent to his knees vomiting after having been hit by this technique while training with Michael Kurth. It's not just a slappy happy thing.

I am no fan boy. I'm not even in Philipp's organization. Whatever your take on the personalities involved, PB himself is a fighter all the way. If you doubt it, just go see for yourself. Then you'll see the clips in a new light.

wingchunIan

02-06-2013, 03:27 PM

This is spot on! And point to one of bigger problems I see with people that spend so much time "doing chi sao" to the point where they no longer know or can see the differences you're talking about.

On a semi-related note (and I'm sure I'll catch heat on this from some people here :)):
Imo, all of the squared-up 2-hand connected tan/bong/fook "Chi Saoing" we see is a very specific range and facing and would be a very short timeframe in an actual fight (I'm talking a split second or two at most) - that is, IF it even occurs at all.

Most of the clips showing 2 guys going at it chi saoing for sometimes a minute or two straight is really 180 degrees from what WC should be. I never could wrap my head around it. If one of the guys were to throw just one real punch during any of it, most of the chi sao looping shown would halt almost immediately. And not saying the people in the clips don't have the skills to defend agaisnt a punch (they very well may), but there's no real proof if you jsut watch the clips. And I'm talking more specifically about all the T/B/F and Bong/Laap/Push chis sao looping mega-battles to gladiator music that carry on for sometimes minutes at a time. Fights just don't happen like that.
Not sure i agree with you there. By that logic classes would be very short, you'd never do more than one bong sao, a couple of punches, maybe a garn sao etc after all there's no point drilling or sparring because real fights dont last very long and sequential repetitions of the same shape rarely happen (as they do in drilling). Chi sao and lap sao drill are development exercises, not fighting. They are designed to develop certain attributes which can be applied in fighting.

BPWT

02-06-2013, 05:52 PM

On a semi-related note (and I'm sure I'll catch heat on this from some people here :)): Imo, all of the squared-up 2-hand connected tan/bong/fook "Chi Saoing" we see is a very specific range and facing and would be a very short timeframe in an actual fight

I was raising a similar question on the Po Pai thread - questioning the staying in a single range only for the lap sau drills and the chi sau itself. But that said, if I understand what Kevin said in reply, they train this way for a specific purpose (tactical to the drill), and I think they train other methods too to give more flexibility of range (range in relation to the relative body positioning).

In LT WT, we play with the ranges more in gor sao and also in lat sau (Hong Kong version, I am not too familiar with the German take on it). In both gor sau and lat sau (actually the two cross over), you are constantly moving in and out of various striking ranges (which for us is itself a part of the exercise).

But all such training is attribute training and each YM lineage has reasons for doing things the way they do them. To be honest, it is kind of interesting to see different approaches.

(but secretly I know my way is right and everyone else is totally wrong :cool::D:rolleyes: - just kidding!)

LFJ

02-06-2013, 10:58 PM

I've experienced Philipp live and he is not pushing his punches. He is stopping or "pulling" them before making contact. His pushing the face with the palm is just a way of assuring himself that he is in the right distance to really knock someone's block off. The push is really a punch, but he uses the palm in the interests of his training partner.

That's what I'm saying. Wayfaring's eyes are perhaps not fast enough, but there are plenty of actual pulled punches stopped at the guy's chin in that clip, not just the palm check and push.

And Wayfaring, "more like a fight" is still very different from an actual fight.

k gledhill

02-07-2013, 05:09 AM

Back to clips : one from Sean I found today , nice!

http://youtu.be/J0U9Kfp8XRY

LFJ

02-07-2013, 05:19 AM

Very good VT, Sean. Your guys are doing great! :)

Graham H

02-07-2013, 06:17 AM

Good work Sean

k gledhill

02-07-2013, 07:40 AM

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 09:44 AM

That's what I'm saying. Wayfaring's eyes are perhaps not fast enough, but there are plenty of actual pulled punches stopped at the guy's chin in that clip, not just the palm check and push.

Spoken like a true believer on a quest. Anyone making real observations of real clips - oh, their eyes must just not be quick enough to pick up the blinding speed of PB.

Sorry LFJ, I see the ONE thing PB doing is speeding up a normal chi sau exchange to more like a fight pace. BUT, I see a lot of slappy/pushy in that. Maybe if I go back and do frame by frame or isolate the clip segments where that is happening you'll be able to see it's not slow eyespeed or whatever.

And Wayfaring, "more like a fight" is still very different from an actual fight.

It shouldn't be. Otherwise as I'm pointing out you are conditioning the wrong things as responses.

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 09:59 AM

At wayfaring, in our repertoire of strikes a palm/push to face and thumb in eye is a regular attack . There is a method for this that makes it hard for the recipient to avoid it. Iow I don't need to take my hand off your face to make a punch, I can make you evade a thumb gouge and you turn yourself for me as your head turns offering other attacks if the thumb isn't enough , if the body turns too, into a rnc, body lock>suplex. A " c clamp" to throat is less seen but equally available , neck crank , etc...philipp is constantly thumbing eye when hand on face.

This doesn't make sense to me. If I have the delivery method to place a hand over your jaw, then that delivery method should suffice for me to hit you on the button and put you down.

The only way it wouldn't is if somehow the delivery method adjusts an opening to the face but at such low velocities there is no alternative other than to grab the face and start working low percentage and rip techniques because there is no other alternative. In other words, if it is a push entry not a striking entry.

Can you make something work from there? Well, I'm sure with enough practice you can do anything. But it's not ideal by any means. It's half way between grappling hand fighting and striking. And that puts you in no mans land.

If someone is resting their hand on my face, for example, even if they are trying to eye gouge with the thumb, that is natural movement into a Russian 2 on 1 chained to a single-leg takedown same side as the hand on my face. Or 2 or 3 other attacks all starting with a resting hand. In other words, a grappler can work with any hand at rest on a part of your body. IF you are going to work techniques like this you'd better train it against someone with skilled wrestling movement and hand fighting.

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 10:24 AM

Back to the clip and examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcozWSvpjs

:02 -05 - three push techniques - RH push punch on shoulder, collapsed RH push with elbow, RH push on face.

Now maybe this is a chi sau drill and PB being a smaller guy has this as a natural reaction to an opponent bulling into him. But no way you would do that in a real fight - you would either dissipate the bull rush as it is developing or if it forces you back angle step off back 45 degrees and punch the bull in the side of his jaw. In any skilled art - WCK, boxing, MT, probably half a dozen TCMA. Not push him away.

I could do this throughout the clip, but it illustrates my point. No, my eyes aren't too slow to pick up what PB is doing there. He is pushing a guy away to maintain distance. And IMO that is exactly what you don't want to train for real fighting. Why? As I said it puts you in a no-mans-land between striking and grappling. Now if you're a good grappler I guess you could make an excuse. But I wouldn't do that. The resting hand and the static nature of the push would give an opponent of mine leverage to open me up to take me down.

Now maybe you think I'm picking on PB. I'm really not for a few reasons. First, I don't think it's PB putting that video up on YouTube. And it's not him explaining what's going on. Maybe to him he would read this thread, 100% agree with me, and say of course he was pushing the guy off and he wouldn't do that in a fight or in fight sparring. Most people who have logged thousands of hours sparring time wouldn't draw drastically different conclusions.

So my only caution here would be against somehow speeding up chi sau but not transitioning the elements of chi sau into fight-simulation striking.

And my question for the fan club is whether or not this clip of PB represents the pace and training methods you go for in all of your classes, or what differences do you have?

Paddington

02-07-2013, 10:29 AM

That's what I'm saying. Wayfaring's eyes are perhaps not fast enough, but there are plenty of actual pulled punches stopped at the guy's chin in that clip, not just the palm check and push.

Just a quick point of note that some of you might find useful to view training/fighting/martial clips.

I use the freely available VLC media player to view all such clips. It has, as standard, a slow motion feature. Further editing tools (plugins) that allow you to use a slider to move the image backwards or forwards around the time stamp of interest, at a number of slow motion levels, is also freely available.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html

Of course, using VLC media player assumes that you have, for example, downloaded streaming media such as that available via youtube. I use a third party and freely available add on to Firefox to downland such clips. It is called 'DownloadHelper'.

http://www.downloadhelper.net/

Anyway, I've found these software tools to be of great help when analyzing peoples movements in clips. When discussing clips with others, it enables us to move forwards quickly in analysis rather than be stuck in the routine of 'to fast to see' etc.

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 10:40 AM

Back to clips : one from Sean I found today , nice!

http://youtu.be/J0U9Kfp8XRY

I would say same observations as with the PB clip. At :06-:07, look at that LH punch. If you can call it a punch. To me it's pushing a hand out there and leaning on the bridge as the student knows without leaning on the bridge he will get pushed back. There's a lot of that going on, intermixed with what looks to be crisper pulled punches more along the lines that sparring should show.

Why do I see things like this you guys don't see? My MMA team has quite a few very talented wrestlers on it trying to learn striking. Every single one of those guys has a very hard time learning to throw punches, not push them. They look ridiculous when starting. I mean like a new deer trying to walk. When I spar with them, I want to punch them in the face, not chi sau with them. A chi sau stance will get me taken down in :01. Punching them in the face or center of mass sternum backs them off like a flaming stick would to wolves. They back out and circle with a similar look in their eyes.

k gledhill

02-07-2013, 10:42 AM

k gledhill

02-07-2013, 10:44 AM

I would say same observations as with the PB clip. At :06-:07, look at that LH punch. If you can call it a punch. To me it's pushing a hand out there and leaning on the bridge as the student knows without leaning on the bridge he will get pushed back. There's a lot of that going on, intermixed with what looks to be crisper pulled punches more along the lines that sparring should show.

Why do I see things like this you guys don't see? My MMA team has quite a few very talented wrestlers on it trying to learn striking. Every single one of those guys has a very hard time learning to throw punches, not push them. They look ridiculous when starting. I mean like a new deer trying to walk. When I spar with them, I want to punch them in the face, not chi sau with them. A chi sau stance will get me taken down in :01. Punching them in the face or center of mass sternum backs them off like a flaming stick would to wolves. They back out and circle with a similar look in their eyes.

You are trying to assign chi-sao as our fighting ...it isnt , period. Yeah I agree If a guy stands in front of me in a basic stance and fights...:rolleyes:

A lot of times an arm is left out to bait incorrect reponses to it...; ) all testing arm chasing , or striking in balance. Arm chasing usually incorporates arm pressure seeking leading to losing balance...

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 10:49 AM

:02-:05 is just stance testing seung ma toi ma...again chi-sao is a series of modular events strung together ...to look at a drill and assign application to it can be a pitfall. I make sure students of mine know that I am testing them by making pushes and not to mimic me as an 'application in chi-sao or fighting.
The test is to improve the recipients balance and recovery...also PB is developing force to test with no leaning forwards..notice where his force comes from ?

Okay so you're categorizing that clip as chi sau or a sensitivity drill.

Can you discuss how you train the difference between a sensitivity drill and a real fight?

All force in any art comes from your stance. The connection to the ground, gravity, and your balance within yourself all contribute to power. In striking, power comes from mobilizing your core with everything else in balance.

k gledhill

02-07-2013, 10:51 AM

Okay so you're categorizing that clip as chi sau or a sensitivity drill.

Can you discuss how you train the difference between a sensitivity drill and a real fight?

All force in any art comes from your stance. The connection to the ground, gravity, and your balance within yourself all contribute to power. In striking, power comes from mobilizing your core with everything else in balance.

Its not a 'sensitivity drill' period...WSL .."sensitivity to negative force is a BY PRODUCT of chi-sao drilling, NOT THE GOAL "

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 11:00 AM

You are trying to assign chi-sao as our fighting ...it isnt , period. Yeah I agree If a guy stands in front of me in a basic stance and fights...:rolleyes:

I'm just looking at training clips and trying to sort them out and allowing some leeway. Maybe the story is there are ONLY chi sau clips up there and none of you guys sparring or fighting. What do you call it "go sau / gor sau"??? If so it is what it is. I'd just say make sure the public clips available don't reflect your % of training. Once you get to a certain point static looping square stance chi sau doesn't do a lot for you. And speeding it up and making it pushy and slappy will probably train the wrong responses into students from a realistic fight perspective.

A lot of times an arm is left out to bait incorrect reponses to it...; ) all testing arm chasing , or striking in balance. Arm chasing usually incorporates arm pressure seeking leading to losing balance...

I don't think that's what it was in that clip. It was a bad habit. Feinting and baiting are both valid approaches and necessary at more advanced levels. But if you make excuses for bad habits then it just hurts the reality of what the students are learning. I say slow them down and correct them.

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 11:08 AM

Its not a 'sensitivity drill' period...WSL .."sensitivity to negative force is a BY PRODUCT of chi-sao drilling, NOT THE GOAL "

Well I don't think he intended slappy and pushy with speed to be the goal. What did he say was the goal?

I mean people's training methods are no skin off my back. I'm just trying to avoid things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX1P0bEg

where someone gets taken down with one of the world's ugliest and worst double-legs ever followed by the inevitable. and pushy on the bridge and laying your hands out there in some kind of misguided feint will absolutely get you there. nice crisp strikes not leaving your hands out there for a handle will keep you from there.

k gledhill

02-07-2013, 11:09 AM

I'm just looking at training clips and trying to sort them out and allowing some leeway. Maybe the story is there are ONLY chi sau clips up there and none of you guys sparring or fighting. What do you call it "go sau / gor sau"??? If so it is what it is. I'd just say make sure the public clips available don't reflect your % of training. Once you get to a certain point static looping square stance chi sau doesn't do a lot for you. And speeding it up and making it pushy and slappy will probably train the wrong responses into students from a realistic fight perspective.

I don't think that's what it was in that clip. It was a bad habit. Feinting and baiting are both valid approaches and necessary at more advanced levels. But if you make excuses for bad habits then it just hurts the reality of what the students are learning. I say slow them down and correct them.

If you dont know whats going on how can anyone give an informed opinion about bad habit or jut sao on arm ? You're a guy who hasnt been introduced to the methods we use to develop. You see action and like most, try to assign applicable correlation to real fighting. VT DRILLING is abstract to the onlooker who has no common understanding.
Sure to the onlooker chi-sao seems like a weird fight, a lot of guys go for the "i would kick you in the nuts" response, or "who fights with arms rolling?", so they assign dirty boxing/clinching, because they DONT KNOW whats going on. This has been going on for years, leading to pushing hands /pressure seeking arms, wars of rolling arms....a mess.

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 11:31 AM

If you dont know whats going on how can anyone give an informed opinion about bad habit or jut sao on arm ? You're a guy who hasnt been introduced to the methods we use to develop. You see action and like most, try to assign applicable correlation to real fighting. VT DRILLING is abstract to the onlooker who has no common understanding.

I wouldn't say I don't know what is going on. I've been through chi sau platform training - both in ip man systems (moy yat) and how hfy views it, which are different. I don't know how you guys view it is all and the specific methods you use and the %. So this is me asking questions about your methods. Do you use standard ip man progression? daan chi sau (one and two hand), poon sau, luk sau, jip sau, jau sau, teui ma, seung ma, gor sau?

I know you aren't knowledgeable of the hfy chi sau progression - kiu sau, chi kiu, chi sau.

So "no common understanding" is quite inaccurate.

Sure to the onlooker chi-sao seems like a weird fight, a lot of guys go for the "i would kick you in the nuts" response, or "who fights with arms rolling?", so they assign dirty boxing/clinching, because they DONT KNOW whats going on. This has been going on for years, leading to pushing hands /pressure seeking arms, wars of rolling arms....a mess.

If you think chi sau automatically leads to "knowing what's going on" in a fighting sense, you're delusional.

As it is practiced I see far more of a case for chi sau being a cute little mysticized drill to string a student along for years while collecting dues and ingraining bad habits to make the student even more dependent upon advanced training to break out of it. And producing pockets of parlor trick specialists.

k gledhill

02-07-2013, 01:44 PM

wingchunIan

02-07-2013, 03:56 PM

Why do folks have such a hard time understanding chi sao? In a fight situation if you strike your opponent unimpeded great, if not and something gets in the way or you need to intercept an incoming strike you need to be able to react in order to land your next strike, that reaction is all that is being trained in chi sao. The fact that chi sao is a continuous exercise of multiple situations is no different to the fact that the movements in the forms are not intended to be taken as a series of do this then do that and yet folks grasp that but struggle to understand chi sao.

wingchunIan

02-07-2013, 04:00 PM

Well I don't think he intended slappy and pushy with speed to be the goal. What did he say was the goal?

I mean people's training methods are no skin off my back. I'm just trying to avoid things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLRX1P0bEg

where someone gets taken down with one of the world's ugliest and worst double-legs ever followed by the inevitable. and pushy on the bridge and laying your hands out there in some kind of misguided feint will absolutely get you there. nice crisp strikes not leaving your hands out there for a handle will keep you from there.

Clearly chi sao would have no relevance in defending the take down, that is purely a matter of not spotting the change in level and having poor footwork, probably due to lack of exposure to that type of attack.

LFJ

02-07-2013, 05:43 PM

Spoken like a true believer on a quest. Anyone making real observations of real clips - oh, their eyes must just not be quick enough to pick up the blinding speed of PB.

A true believer of what and on what quest? I've never met PB and am not even of his lineage. You honestly didn't see the punches in that clip?

Anyway, I've found these software tools to be of great help when analyzing peoples movements in clips. When discussing clips with others, it enables us to move forwards quickly in analysis rather than be stuck in the routine of 'to fast to see' etc.

That shouldn't really be necessary. There were too many clearly pulled punches in that clip. Wayfaring was just sleeping and obviously knows nothing about chi-sau, as evidenced by his 'if you did that you'd be open to this' type arguments.

Vajramusti

02-07-2013, 05:43 PM

Paddington

02-07-2013, 07:38 PM

[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1210009]Clearly chi sao would have no relevance in defending the take down,
----------------------------------------------------------
Possibly a premature assumption-but not worth discussing at a mad hatter's party.

I think I share your view here, Joy. If only these forums were moderated properly so that useful discussion could occur more often. I am noticing that most just take their conversations elsewhere, which is a shame cause it kills these boards.

Vajramusti

02-07-2013, 08:43 PM

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 08:50 PM

Clearly chi sao would have no relevance in defending the take down, that is purely a matter of not spotting the change in level and having poor footwork, probably due to lack of exposure to that type of attack.

And yet a grappler's handfighting has everything to do with defending the takedown. If chi sau plays in the same arena, how can it not address the same deficiencies?

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 08:52 PM

The easiest way to differentiate chi sao ideas is to make one Idea based on arms feeling other arms in a combat mode and arms developing a multifaceted striking concept in a mutual drilling platform without competition to defeat another in a delusional ritualized form of combat.

Pick your way.

Trying to decipher.

2 ideas:

1) arms feeling other arms in a combat mode
2) arms developing a multifaceted striking concept in a mutual drilling platform

and developing the ideas is more important than ritualized competition?

amiclose?

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 08:54 PM

A true believer of what and on what quest? I've never met PB and am not even of his lineage. You honestly didn't see the punches in that clip?

Some, but far more of the other. Problematic in developing fighting skills IMO.

That shouldn't really be necessary. There were too many clearly pulled punches in that clip. Wayfaring was just sleeping and obviously knows nothing about chi-sau, as evidenced by his 'if you did that you'd be open to this' type arguments.

Or I know something about chi sau including its deficiencies in training live fighting scenarios.

LFJ

02-07-2013, 09:47 PM

Or I know something about chi sau including its deficiencies in training live fighting scenarios.

Further proving my point. That is not even the purpose of chi-sau. If chi-sau is the only type of pressure testing in training, I'd have a problem with it. Do you look at daan-chi and say it's deficient because you'd just hit them with the other hand?

Wayfaring

02-07-2013, 09:51 PM

Further proving my point. That is not even the purpose of chi-sau. If chi-sau is the only type of pressure testing in training, I'd have a problem with it. Do you look at daan-chi and say it's deficient because you'd just hit them with the other hand?

whatever point you have exists only in your own head.

LaRoux

02-07-2013, 10:40 PM

Clearly chi sao would have no relevance in defending the take down, that is purely a matter of not spotting the change in level and having poor footwork, probably due to lack of exposure to that type of attack.

Are you trying to say that defending a takedown is just a matter of spotting a level change and having decent footwork and that the arms/hands play no role in this?

wingchunIan

02-08-2013, 01:22 AM

And yet a grappler's handfighting has everything to do with defending the takedown. If chi sau plays in the same arena, how can it not address the same deficiencies?

A grappler's hand fighting would have nothing to do with defending that takedown. It was a shoot to the legs aiming to achieve a double or single. Fighting for hand position is only relevant from a clinch / contact start point. To defend a shoot you don't try to control the arms whatever art you study. The shoot uses the legs to cover distance and propel the body beyond the opponent's centre of gravity, in return it has to be defended by moving the legs and the centre of gravity, aka moving off the line or sprawling.

wingchunIan

02-08-2013, 01:31 AM

Are you trying to say that defending a takedown is just a matter of spotting a level change and having decent footwork and that the arms/hands play no role in this?

The arms play an important role in preventing an opponent from pursuing the attack either through maintaining distance, punishing the attempt or both, but without footwork the hands mean nothing. Go to any mma gym or wrestling gym and ask how to defend a take down, almost without fail your answer will be either footwork to maintain the gap and /or move off the line, or sprawl (which in and of itself is a form of footwork designed to prevent the centre of mass being taken behind the base by throwing the base rapidly backwards and lowering the centre of gravity). Of course you can have the best footwork in the world but if you don't spot the change in level you'll never get to use it.

Frost

02-08-2013, 03:41 AM

The arms play an important role in preventing an opponent from pursuing the attack either through maintaining distance, punishing the attempt or both, but without footwork the hands mean nothing. Go to any mma gym or wrestling gym and ask how to defend a take down, almost without fail your answer will be either footwork to maintain the gap and /or move off the line, or sprawl (which in and of itself is a form of footwork designed to prevent the centre of mass being taken behind the base by throwing the base rapidly backwards and lowering the centre of gravity). Of course you can have the best footwork in the world but if you don't spot the change in level you'll never get to use it.

Actually they will tell you not to shoot unless you are in arm touching range, ie in clinch range or striking range by which time the arms play a big part, long range shots only work against people in upright stances who get in to close and have aggressive direct footwork…what are does that sound like….
And without arms footwork and sprawling means nothing, sprawl on me without using your arms and im reshooting, sitting out and taking the back etc

wingchunIan

02-08-2013, 07:52 AM

Actually they will tell you not to shoot unless you are in arm touching range, ie in clinch range or striking range by which time the arms play a big part, long range shots only work against people in upright stances who get in to close and have aggressive direct footwork…what are does that sound like….
defending a take down once contact is made is IME far easier than one where it has not and whilst the arms play a huge part at such range it is again the feet that are the key. Whether the shoot comes from range or from close I seek to punish the takedown attempt by strikes and seek to control the head / centre of gravity with my non striking arm but without footwork I still end up on my backside (something that I have huge personal experience of)

And without arms footwork and sprawling means nothing, sprawl on me without using your arms and im reshooting, sitting out and taking the back etc
I never said the arms wouldn't be used at all only that by far the most important element is the footwork, fwiw an aquaintance who was a very good wrestler used to teach that the key to a good sprawl and for that matter pins was the ability to use bodyweight against the opponent. He would frequently sprawl using his chest as the only significant contact point when showing off.

On a seperate note Jose Aldo has one of the best takedown defences in UFC and the key according to far more knowledgable sources than I, is alledgedly his footwork and the fact that he never retreats or advances in straight lines. Ultimately if the guy in the clip had spotted the change in level and used footwork to angle off the line of the attack he wouldn't have ended up on the canvas at that point in the fight. Easier said than done (from experience) but effective none the less

Frost

02-08-2013, 08:11 AM

defending a take down once contact is made is IME far easier than one where it has not and whilst the arms play a huge part at such range it is again the feet that are the key. Whether the shoot comes from range or from close I seek to punish the takedown attempt by strikes and seek to control the head / centre of gravity with my non striking arm but without footwork I still end up on my backside (something that I have huge personal experience of)

I never said the arms wouldn't be used at all only that by far the most important element is the footwork, fwiw an aquaintance who was a very good wrestler used to teach that the key to a good sprawl and for that matter pins was the ability to use bodyweight against the opponent. He would frequently sprawl using his chest as the only significant contact point when showing off.

On a seperate note Jose Aldo has one of the best takedown defences in UFC and the key according to far more knowledgable sources than I, is alledgedly his footwork and the fact that he never retreats or advances in straight lines. Ultimately if the guy in the clip had spotted the change in level and used footwork to angle off the line of the attack he wouldn't have ended up on the canvas at that point in the fight. Easier said than done (from experience) but effective none the less

Actually it’s the hips not the footwork that’s the key to defending a takedown (and to winning in the clinch), and whilst anyone when grappling against a lesser opponent can defend just using their hips and bodyweight and show off its still not the way things are done

Defending a takedown is easier once contact is made? You mean once they are in correct range and they have a handle on you to set up the takedown? are you really saying this??? Seriously ?? because I have grappled for over a decade, trained with some of the best wrestlers out there and they all say to make contact (or be in range to make contact if its mma, and even they they are making contact with you, its just fleeting contact with punches) before shooting or attempting a takedown, seriously who have you trained with who says this??

jose aldos excellent takedown defense comes from peoples fear of getting destroyed by his strikes on the way in and in the clinch rather than his excellent footwork, people like Faber, Brown etc didn’t try to take him down until they were hurt because of the following
a) His excellent wrestling training under kenny johsnon a master of teaching strikers how to avoid being taken down in the clinch and off shots (he has worked with BJ Penn, Anderson Sila, Paul Daley as well as aldo…..if you are lucky enough to train with him you will see how good he is) which when combined with his thai clinch skills mean people got punished badly for trying to clinch with him (ala brown)
b) His superb leg kicks which takes away his opponents ability to explode (see his fight with Faber)
c) His long punching style: powerful long hooks and uppercuts, and also knees (see every fight he has ever had)
d) His explosive ability to hurt with ever strike (see his 5 first round knockouts in the WEC which included a double flying knee, a knee counter to a shot etc)
e) His natural strength and athletic ability (see his shucking off of mike brown in the clinch when he won the title)
f) His BJJ skills which are among the best in the world in his weight class

His footwork was a part of the equation as it always is, circling out and moving back and to the side is always a good idea, as is not over committing to attacks but not the only (or even major) part

In wrestling your 3 lines of defence are head, hands and arms, and hips

sanjuro_ronin

02-08-2013, 08:31 AM

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1210025]

I think I share your view here, Joy. If only these forums were moderated properly so that useful discussion could occur more often. I am noticing that most just take their conversations elsewhere, which is a shame cause it kills these boards.

As a moderator ( though not of the WC area by choice) I would like to comment on this.
We try our best to allow a certain freedom for posters since every poster has their own posting style and, for the most part, it works well.
The other forums, like the Southern forum, the Health and fitness one, the Taiji one, the Mantis one, heck in the OT one, are typically, fine.
It is the WC forum that has the most issues and the reason, quite frankly, is YOU GUYS ( the people that post in the WC forum).
You guys have some serious issues and turn every thread into a lineage-***** measuring war and quite frankly, its pretty sad.
You WC guys have some deep rooted issues and it comes out in your posting style, you guys attack each other like you found out that one of you were adopted or worse, you guys treat WC almost like a religion and you are all a bunch of fundamentalists and only YOUR WAY is the RIGHT way ( to WC salvation as it were).
In short, the issue in the WC forum is NOT the moderation, its the posters.
Grow up you guys, seriously.

Please note that I am not addressing this to ANY poster in particular but to ALL WC posters in general.

wingchunIan

02-08-2013, 10:36 AM

[QUOTE]Actually it’s the hips not the footwork that’s the key to defending a takedown (and to winning in the clinch), and whilst anyone when grappling against a lesser opponent can defend just using their hips and bodyweight and show off its still not the way things are done are you sure you haven't been watching too much of this :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTQXYeTV7a8

this is a circular argument as if you don't move the feet there is nothing that you can do with your hips that will prevent you being dumped on the floor.

Defending a takedown is easier once contact is made? You mean once they are in correct range and they have a handle on you to set up the takedown? are you really saying this??? Seriously ?? because I have grappled for over a decade, trained with some of the best wrestlers out there and they all say to make contact (or be in range to make contact if its mma, and even they they are making contact with you, its just fleeting contact with punches) before shooting or attempting a takedown, seriously who have you trained with who says this?? sound advice and the closer the range the less time there is to react to the takedown (as in the single and double legs evidenced in the clip) attempt however with contact the change of level can be felt whereas from out of contact (even if within range) the level change has to be observed. Of course in contact range there are a whole other array of throws, trips etc available to a grappler that are not available at range which do indeed increase the liklihood of ending up on the floor. FWIW my comments are based on my own experiences not on what someone has told me so maybe my opinions will change over time.

With regards to Jose Aldo all of the factors that you mention of course come into play however watch his recent fights and listen to the commentary. The comment I made was taken from a commentator who has fought and coached at the top of MMA, of course he is probably wrong and you are right. Maybe you should think about calling the UFC and asking for a slot on the payroll. ;)

Its friday afternoon and I can't take this discusion too seriously

Wayfaring

02-08-2013, 11:06 AM

A grappler's hand fighting would have nothing to do with defending that takedown. It was a shoot to the legs aiming to achieve a double or single. Fighting for hand position is only relevant from a clinch / contact start point. To defend a shoot you don't try to control the arms whatever art you study. The shoot uses the legs to cover distance and propel the body beyond the opponent's centre of gravity, in return it has to be defended by moving the legs and the centre of gravity, aka moving off the line or sprawling.

Most clueless post on grappling I've read in a long while.

JPinAZ

02-08-2013, 11:15 AM

Not sure i agree with you there. By that logic classes would be very short, you'd never do more than one bong sao, a couple of punches, maybe a garn sao etc after all there's no point drilling or sparring because real fights dont last very long and sequential repetitions of the same shape rarely happen (as they do in drilling).

Drilling realistic fighting applications vs. T/B/F rolling chi sau or bong-laap looping drills are 2 very different things.

While everything has it's place, if one focuses a large portion of their training on the latter, they will then assume this is realistic fighting and post up clips of it, title them 'gor sau' and then post them on forums as proof of fighting skills, when in reality it's just development execises.

Chi sao and lap sao drill are development exercises, not fighting. They are designed to develop certain attributes which can be applied in fighting.

Exactly. Yet this is mostly what is shown in the clips that are being talked about that are titled 'gor sau', as Wayfaring has has pointed out.

Most people assume 'Gor sau' means more than just drilling. 'Specially when the clips are of a lineage's top guy trashing his students to cool fight music and are being pumped up as example of his fighting prowess. Not saying the people in the clip can/can't fight or don't have skill, but let's call it what it really is: High speed drilling of looping tan/bong/fook push/pull chi sau & bong laap drills to really cool fight music by people of unequal skills and low resistance levels ;)

Which brought me to my original point: this is the downside of spending so much of one's traing time on these types of drills (like T/B/F chi sau) in. They only represent a very small timeframe in a fight, and will lead one to lose sight of what it is to fight against a resisting opponent that doesn't play these same game or even present the opportunity for this very specific timeframe.

Wayfaring

02-08-2013, 11:17 AM

[QUOTE=Paddington;1210032]
It is the WC forum that has the most issues and the reason, quite frankly, is YOU GUYS ( the people that post in the WC forum).
You guys have some serious issues and turn every thread into a lineage-***** measuring war and quite frankly, its pretty sad.
You WC guys have some deep rooted issues....

You know I would have a lot more problem with this post if guys with issues didn't date girls like this:

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx195/skez520mia/MY%20OBSESSION%20FOR%20SEXY%20WOMEN/blondebombZer0.jpg

Great job WCK forum team!!!!

sanjuro_ronin

02-08-2013, 11:34 AM

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1210074]

You know I would have a lot more problem with this post if guys with issues didn't date girls like this:

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx195/skez520mia/MY%20OBSESSION%20FOR%20SEXY%20WOMEN/blondebombZer0.jpg

Great job WCK forum team!!!!

I see you gratuitous example of the female form and reply in kind !!
http://guanabee.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/yoga-babe-81-450x545.jpg

k gledhill

02-08-2013, 12:02 PM

I see your pair and raise with tits, er this, hehe

sanjuro_ronin

02-08-2013, 12:10 PM

I see your fine display of ink art and counter with a double dragons lunge !
http://img8.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/8126/8126279ef1595939fd90ab208c6f3caf79b355e.jpg

BPWT

02-08-2013, 12:27 PM

Finally! This thread eventually took a turn in the right direction... :)

See all the ink, move things back to combat-related and raise you something "fully loaded".

k gledhill

02-08-2013, 12:32 PM

Hmmm I raise you a red head...

sanjuro_ronin

02-08-2013, 12:34 PM

I see your fully loaded and raise you a concealed weapon !
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XBpoaYq6UI0/UO_Ep2q_5dI/AAAAAAAAFF8/WDD75h61fmE/s1600/car_show_babes_02.jpg

Frost

02-08-2013, 01:29 PM

[QUOTE=Frost;1210072] are you sure you haven't been watching too much of this :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTQXYeTV7a8

this is a circular argument as if you don't move the feet there is nothing that you can do with your hips that will prevent you being dumped on the floor.

sound advice and the closer the range the less time there is to react to the takedown (as in the single and double legs evidenced in the clip) attempt however with contact the change of level can be felt whereas from out of contact (even if within range) the level change has to be observed. Of course in contact range there are a whole other array of throws, trips etc available to a grappler that are not available at range which do indeed increase the liklihood of ending up on the floor. FWIW my comments are based on my own experiences not on what someone has told me so maybe my opinions will change over time.

With regards to Jose Aldo all of the factors that you mention of course come into play however watch his recent fights and listen to the commentary. The comment I made was taken from a commentator who has fought and coached at the top of MMA, of course he is probably wrong and you are right. Maybe you should think about calling the UFC and asking for a slot on the payroll. ;)

Its friday afternoon and I can't take this discusion too seriously
i can tell your opinions are based on your own experiences because no one with sound grappling experience would say that :)

My opinion is also based on my own experiences, 10 years of grappling and wrestling training including entering comps :)

my opinion on aldo comes from my own observations, those of my coach who has trained one title fighter in the UFC and 6 guys who have competed at the top level in both the UFC and pride and from talking to the guy who trains aldo in wrestling whilst training with him.....who was a standout at iowa and on the usa national team for over a decade and is my schools wrestling coach.....and not from the TV in a 5 second spot :)