Ring Fu

[MightyB]

Should we just adapt Kung Fu to the ring?

For example, just work off of a San Da base and then gradually introduce traditional techniques over time.

I don't think it'd make Kung Fu any less effective and it's not like we're out defending our honor in bloody street fights. IDK, does it make sense to adapt to modern competition?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Modern competition can have as limited rules as you want, even no rules.
The techniques used in Sanda ARE traditional, though they MAY not ALL be from TCMA in how they are applied.
I don't see any reason why ANY kung fu systems will not work in the ring as long as the person trained for it.
You won't find a much better "testing ground" for your TCMA than in the ring VS a fighter that has trained as much as you, wants to beat you as much as you want to be him.
So why not?

[RenDaHai]

There is no need to adapt the art. You simply need to adapt the game to test the art. Change the rules. But when I say change the rules, I don't mean to allow 'more deadly' technique. I mean to Change the prerequisites for winning.

I.e If you did it as a scenario, alternating attackers and defenders. Like a game of tennis has alternating servers. This is in no way less realistic and would dramatically change the tactics used during each play.

In the defenders round he doesn't have to score any points (but can counter attack if he wants, it just won't score him any points), only stop the attacker from scoring. I think you would see a lot more Kung fu 'esque footwork and guarding being employed. You can only score during an attacking round, however if you KO the opponent during a defending round then you win by default.



All MA are based on Violence. However at its base there are 2 elementary forms of violence. Predatory and Territorial. Kung fu deals with the former (both initiating and defending against) and Ring MA deal with the latter. They are not always compatible. The only way to resolve this that I can see is not to use less rules but to have a scenario.

[Frost]

what exactly needs adapting? There are formats that allow both open and closed fist strikes, that allow gloves and no gloves, that allow trapping locks etc

The question shouldnt be how do we adapt our kung fu, the question should be why do we need to

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's all fine and dandy BUT if you can't deal with an opponent in a controlled environment, that chances of doing so in an "uncontrolled' one is far, far less.
Just like if you can't beat one guy, the chances of being able to beat 2 is far less.

[MightyB]

what exactly needs adapting? There are formats that allow both open and closed fist strikes, that allow gloves and no gloves, that allow trapping locks etc

The question shouldnt be how do we adapt our kung fu, the question should be why do we need to

the kickboxing comment comes up from time to time and in another thread it got me to thinking to just go with it instead of "fighting" against it. So my thought is to just develop good san da skills so it's definitely got that Chinese flavor as a base and then introduce the more "traditional" style specific techniques gradually over time. That way when a person or student hard spars, they'll fall back on solid san da technique instead of trying to improvise kickboxing because they haven't been trained to kick box properly.

[MightyB]

It seems counter intuitive, but I really do think that if you develop a good san da base, you'd actually end up freer to grow into being a solid traditional kung fu person over time. Does that make sense?


I just see it in Judo - the competitive guys usually grow more into traditional Ju Jitsu (not to be confused with BJJ) as they age. And they get really good at applying the traditional self defense stuff. Seems to me like that would work with Kung Fu too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the kickboxing comment comes up from time to time and in another thread it got me to thinking to just go with it instead of "fighting" against it. So my thought is to just develop good san da skills so it's definitely got that Chinese flavor as a base and then introduce the more "traditional" style specific techniques gradually over time. That way when a person or student hard spars, they'll fall back on solid san da technique instead of trying to improvise kickboxing because they haven't been trained to kick box properly.

The issue of "how a style looks in fighting" is not a very complex one but it is a 2 part one:
Kung fu tends to only "look" like kung fu when the skill level difference is quite considerable.
two:
Because "specialty systems" (systems that have unique attributes to them) tend ot be drill and trained against themselves ( class environment), what makes those systems have their distinct "look" only shows up when they, basically, "fight themselves".
When they have to apply their specializes skillset VS someone that is not presenting them with the "puzzle" they are used to, the bodies most natural way of doing things tends to "take over" and you get "poor mans kickboxing".

[RenDaHai]

Seems to me like that would work with Kung Fu too.

That would work, but its kind of like learning to do a 100m sprint backwards really well. Why not just train it forewards? Kung Fu cannot compete with a ring dedicated MA inside a ring. Because it is not designed of that format.

I'm saying if you changed the format just a little, as in taking turns to attack or defend, you would see a lot of traditional techniques come into their zone and become a lot more useful.

100% attack vs 100% defense would also be more fun to watch.

[MightyB]

100% attack vs 100% defense would also be more fun to watch.

This is an interesting thought. Maybe someone here with a lot of students can try this one night and report back on the results.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is an interesting thought. Maybe someone here with a lot of students can try this one night and report back on the results.

That is basic 101 drills in most MA.
Why repeat that in a competitive environment where the ideal is to test ALL facets of combat?

[RenDaHai]

That is basic 101 drills in most MA.
Why repeat that in a competitive environment where the ideal is to test ALL facets of combat?

Because that is what it is designed for.... Why test your tennis game while playing football? Why test BJJ in a boxing match?

The problem with most Kung Fu is that they do those drills , but they
DONT test them in a competitive environment, they are not really trying ot hit each other


Besides, I say take it in turns, so it DOES test all facets

[MightyB]

That is basic 101 drills in most MA.
Why repeat that in a competitive environment where the ideal is to test ALL facets of combat?

my personal opinion is to go the San Da route to grow into traditional only because I always see (myself included) that people tend to kick box more as pressure and contact increases.

But, starting this year I've decided to try not to make snap judgments and hopefully we can find ways to test theories and see if they provide results. Ren Da's idea and rationale is valid in the sense that it makes sense. So now we got to find a way to test it. It's just my opinion that we'll see even in the most traditional environment, the students will poor man kick box when pressured for real.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because that is what it is designed for.... Why test your tennis game while playing football? Why test BJJ in a boxing match?

The problem with most Kung Fu is that they do those drills , but they
DONT test them in a competitive environment, they are not really trying ot hit each other


Besides, I say take it in turns, so it DOES test all facets

To use your analogy, why test your tennis game by testing only how you can receive a serve?
That is what drills are for, to develop specifics and specialties BUT competition is used to test the WHOLE.
IN boxing we cn do a few rounds where one guys just defends and the other guy attacks, helps the defender work on blocks, footwork, evasion, etc and helps the attacker work on combos and finding opening and angles.
BUT it also has glaring weaknesses:
The defender is forces to be overly defensive and the attacker is is not exposed to aggressive counter punching.

Why bring those flaws into competition?

The point of testing is to TEST in a live and uncooperative environment.
Why make it just another "class" ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

my personal opinion is to go the San Da route to grow into traditional only because I always see (myself included) that people tend to kick box more as pressure and contact increases.

But, starting this year I've decided to try not to make snap judgments and hopefully we can find ways to test theories and see if they provide results. Ren Da's idea and rationale is valid in the sense that it makes sense. So now we got to find a way to test it. It's just my opinion that we'll see even in the most traditional environment, the students will poor man kick box when pressured for real.

Your opinion will be correct because they are NOT training as they will be fighting.
If you wanna do classical WC in a full contact environment then you must train it that way and NOT Vs another WC guy ( using WC as an example since classically it is NOT suppose to look like "kickboxing") but VS a MMA guy for example.

[RenDaHai]

@Ronin

But you CAN do counter punching. It just doesn't score.

If you do it your way we end up with most of the fight bouncing off each others guard and circling and then clinching or hugging on the floor. Where as the reality of what Kung Fu is designed for is someone going hell for leather at you or vice a versa. My way the whole fight is 'heat'.

Because KF alsways states to avoid territorial violence (basically a d*ck measuring contest). ANd it is usually avoidable.

But Predatorial is not avoidable. If you apologise to a lion it won't care and will STILL eat you.

People who do Kung FU don't want to be good fighters, they want to be good defenders.

That is what it is designed for and so that is how it should be tested.

[sanjuro_ronin]

@Ronin

But you CAN do counter punching. It just doesn't score.

If you do it your way we end up with most of the fight bouncing off each others guard and circling and then clinching or hugging on the floor. Where as the reality of what Kung Fu is designed for is someone going hell for leather at you or vice a versa. My way the whole fight is 'heat'.

Because KF alsways states to avoid territorial violence (basically a d*ck measuring contest). ANd it is usually avoidable.

But Predatorial is not avoidable. If you apologise to a lion it won't care and will STILL eat you.

People who do Kung FU don't want to be good fighters, they want to be good defenders.

That is what it is designed for and so that is how it should be tested.

Honestly, I don't think you are correct in this, at all.
But to each their own.

[GeneChing]

Should we just adapt Kung Fu to the ring?

For example, just work off of a San Da base and then gradually introduce traditional techniques over time. Sanda is Kung Fu adapted to the ring. While the roots of leitai have some history, Sanda as it is played now is fairly new. It emerged from the Chinese military and has evolved into an international sport.

[RenDaHai]

Honestly, I don't think you are correct in this, at all.
But to each their own.

Fair enough


Just to clarify for others my thoughts are that it comes down to Territorial Vs Predatorial Violence;

In the ring you both want to fight. That is like two animals fighting over territory. But in the real world this can be avoided generally by backing down. And when you do fight, it is easier because you are not afraid, you are angry. SO Kung fu doesn't deal so much with this type of fight. Ring Combat is all this type of fight.

However the unavoidable predatorial combat, the one where you have the disadvantage of fear and he has the initiative. This is the one that Kung Fu is designed for (also to play the part of the predator in this). The strategy has to be different. Attack is not always the best form of defense and counter punching is only worthwhile if it makes a good impact, NOT just to score a point.

A fight is as much psychological as physical. A scenario does something to address this and deals with more strategies.

I still say pracitce both types, but in this scenario you will see traditional Kung FU become mroe useful.

[David Jamieson]

adapted for the ring?

Why. there's a variety of choices of training methodologies to put on top of Kung Fu practice that can take any interested person into a sport fighting scenario.

For empty hand stuff anyway.
I doubt we'll ever see spear and sword fighting, or double axes being weilded against each other in a sport venue all too soon.

Besides, I do believe that is exactly the purpose of San Da.

[David Jamieson]

That's all fine and dandy BUT if you can't deal with an opponent in a controlled environment, that chances of doing so in an "uncontrolled' one is far, far less.
Just like if you can't beat one guy, the chances of being able to beat 2 is far less.

More variables in a less controlled environment. Upper hand goes to the superior weapon in that scenario. The small defeat the strong with superior weapons.

In a ring, you're matched by weight and such so it's an equal match up quite often. So, it can be anybodies win in that sense.

there is a huge difference between sport fighting and getting sucker punch with a pint glass over the head followed by a few fellas holding you down whilst another stomps you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

More variables in a less controlled environment. Upper hand goes to the superior weapon in that scenario. The small defeat the strong with superior weapons.

In a ring, you're matched by weight and such so it's an equal match up quite often. So, it can be anybodies win in that sense.

there is a huge difference between sport fighting and getting sucker punch with a pint glass over the head followed by a few fellas holding you down whilst another stomps you.

Like I said, if you can't be effective in a controlled environment...

[MightyB]

there is a huge difference between sport fighting and getting sucker punch with a pint glass over the head followed by a few fellas holding you down whilst another stomps you.

You really need to find better places to hang out :D

[David Jamieson]

Like I said, if you can't be effective in a controlled environment...

Yes, but that says nothing about what you are good at.
The controlled environment you are talking about is a kick,punch. throw and lock environment.

If a Kung Fu adept is best at weapons, why does he have to be regarded as less because he's not a great boxer?

Why don't people bag on judo for no striking? Why don't people bag on boxing for no wrestling? Why don't people bag on anything else in this forum except for Kung Fu and in particular there is this weird want to diminish the fullness of what's in kung fu to prove what?

That kung fu is a ring art? Use San Da. there, done.

I like all the limbs of Kung Fu. I don't have an issue with competitive fighting.
I do take umbrage at people who want to change an art form into a sport when it already has that component represented through san da as mentioned or in China with crossing hands etc.

Kung Fu has been adapted already in that sense. It doesn't change that people still want to learn to use spears or swords etc.

[David Jamieson]

You really need to find better places to hang out :D

I don't work in environments like that anymore. Got educated, I fly a desk and make way more money with way less risk than I did working a door or a bar. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, but that says nothing about what you are good at.


Of Course, unless what you are good at is fighting.
Then it has everything to do with that.
The point is that for all those that taut that kung fu is about real fighting with no rules in an uncontrolled environment, my point is that is you can't fight in a controlled one, the chances of you fighting in an uncontrolled one are gonna be worse.
Its one case or the other:
If you kick butt in the street and get your butt kicked in the ring, it means that ring fighting requires more skill and fighting ability.
( and no I am not talking about one fight).
If you kick butt in the ring and get your butt kicked in the street, it means the street requires more fighting ability and skill than the ring.
It's just that simple.

[MightyB]

That kung fu is a ring art? Use San Da. there, done.


Kung Fu has been adapted already in that sense. It doesn't change that people still want to learn to use spears or swords etc.

I misswrote what I was getting at - what I'm trying to say is for TCMA to adopt San Da training as a basic component of the art. So when you start training a TCMA - the first couple of months (or years) just focus on San Da with light sparring if you're not into sport stuff, and for those who are into sport, go more in depth with San Da and devote more time to it. After gaining some proficiency in san da type sparring, then go into more traditional training. I just think that would make for better martial artists all around.

[David Jamieson]

Of Course, unless what you are good at is fighting.
Then it has everything to do with that.
The point is that for all those that taut that kung fu is about real fighting with no rules in an uncontrolled environment, my point is that is you can't fight in a controlled one, the chances of you fighting in an uncontrolled one are gonna be worse.
Its one case or the other:
If you kick butt in the street and get your butt kicked in the ring, it means that ring fighting requires more skill and fighting ability.
( and no I am not talking about one fight).
If you kick butt in the ring and get your butt kicked in the street, it means the street requires more fighting ability and skill than the ring.
It's just that simple.

I am still not completely agreeing with this assessment. It's apples and oranges.

A controlled environment isn't full spectrum fighting. It is limited and rules are applied. So, the controlled environment is skill specific and doesn't say anything about the persons full ability to do harm and rather it makes a statement about how well trained they are to fight in that controlled environment.

IE: Muhammad Ali is a crappy wrestler and would get choked out in his prime in a controlled environment.

It doesn't matter who you are or what you train, if you are going to fight, you need the guts to fight. If you lose does that mean you suck? Even the best fighters in the world come and go. Do they suck because they can't win in a controlled environment that is limited in scope?

Kung Fu contains a sport element, or if someone wants that, they can go to any number of other places. Even my own sifu would train us differently from the regular curriculum if we were going to fight competitively. In which case, the training was geared to the venue and it's demands.

Kung Fu is more. To me an to a great deal many other people.

It also has plenty of ways of competing in form and so on.

But it doesn't have controlled environments for weapon fighting,,,because it just doesn't. :) Maybe we'll see some rubber-chuk fighting the future, but I for one would not pay to watch that. lol

[David Jamieson]

I misswrote what I was getting at - what I'm trying to say is for TCMA to adopt San Da training as a basic component of the art. So when you start training a TCMA - the first couple of months (or years) just focus on San Da with light sparring if you're not into sport stuff, and for those who are into sport, go more in depth with San Da and devote more time to it. After gaining some proficiency in san da type sparring, then go into more traditional training. I just think that would make for better martial artists all around.

A school that has a teacher that is well rounded already does this.
I understand there is a lot of crappy schools out there, but if you are going to a Kung Fu school that doesn't have a san da or si yao da component, then I would say you've made a bad choice of schools.

All good Kung Fu schools have that guts first / condition second / technique last ladder.

[RenDaHai]

Its one case or the other:
If you kick butt in the street and get your butt kicked in the ring, it means that ring fighting requires more skill and fighting ability.
( and no I am not talking about one fight).
If you kick butt in the ring and get your butt kicked in the street, it means the street requires more fighting ability and skill than the ring.
It's just that simple.

Na, its always gonna be a paper rock scissors kind of thing. Besides physical skill is one thing, the psychological aspect is another entirely. The Psych aspect is more important in the 'street'. I'd say that is largely independent of physical skill. So the two will not be as linked as you say above.

BTW I don't think there is a single good MA or reliable method, Chinese or otherwise for training this Psychological aspect.

[MightyB]

A school that has a teacher that is well rounded already does this.
I understand there is a lot of crappy schools out there, but if you are going to a Kung Fu school that doesn't have a san da or si yao da component, then I would say you've made a bad choice of schools.

All good Kung Fu schools have that guts first / condition second / technique last ladder.

I think that's an unfairly based value judgment because there are good hard core traditional schools that go in depth into their style's training methodology, but it's the same methodology from two-hundred or three-hundred years ago and that doesn't take into account how people train and fight today. Yes we're getting into a rules component and a sport environment, but that's today's environment and where you'll most likely end up displaying your skills. So why go it alone when there is a perfectly valid distinctly Chinese training methodology which works in a sporting environment?

[MightyB]

But it doesn't have controlled environments for weapon fighting,,,because it just doesn't. :) Maybe we'll see some rubber-chuk fighting the future, but I for one would not pay to watch that. lol

You've never seen competitive weapons sparring? It exists. My Sifu's tournament used to have it when he held his annual tourney and it was quite a lot of fun. Two categories existed, short weapons and long weapons. There was no mix of short vs long or dual weapon wielding. The weapons were heavy pvc wrapped in foam. competitors wore full kendo type padding. And it was a blast. I got popped with a straight spear thrust to the face plate by a different school's sifu's brother and I saw stars for a second. It was payback because I popped him first. Points were called for kill shots and all matches consisted of 3 points to win. I have some footage on VHS somewhere that I'll have to look up.

[David Jamieson]

I've seen Baji spear/pole fighting. But not here. I've seen vid from China only in that regard. Looks interesting.

I don't think I'd go for foam bat fighting. It's...not the same.

Fencing? Yeah, that is an awesome skill to get into you, although, if you take olympic training it's about setting off the vest sensor more than really getting into the art of the sword.

For other stick fighting there is Arnis. I used to get some of this action back when I lived in the Peg. We were lucky to have a huge population influx of people from the Filippines and Escrima, Arnis schools were popping up everywhere. Cool stuff.

[MightyB]

I don't think I'd go for foam bat fighting. It's...not the same.


we built our own - took a heavy gauge PVC and wrapped it with a combination of foam and duct tape. Much better and more realistic than the premade foam stuff you can buy. The long weapons were a little more flexible than their white wax wood counter parts yet they were still stiff enough to use any spear or staff technique.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some of us have actually done full contact stick fighting and wooden weapons fighting.
and while there are no competitive venues for them per say ( kendo and fencing are different things), one is free to compete full contact in ANYTHING that one can get a partner for.

[David Jamieson]

we built our own - took a heavy gauge PVC and wrapped it with a combination of foam and duct tape. Much better and more realistic than the premade foam stuff you can buy. The long weapons were a little more flexible than their white wax wood counter parts yet they were still stiff enough to use any spear or staff technique.

sounds like baji pole fighting.

how long were the batons?

[MightyB]

Some of us have actually done full contact stick fighting and wooden weapons fighting.
and while there are no competitive venues for them per say ( kendo and fencing are different things), one is free to compete full contact in ANYTHING that one can get a partner for.

I'm going to have to go and find the footage. Even though we wore helmets and the weapons were "safe", you could hear the kill shot hits in the stands. Like I said, I saw stars when I got hit with a spear thrust to the face plate. I think that it would've been possible to knock someone out with a good spear thrust. Short weapons - sword length was more challenging for me, I just wasn't that good at it, but I did pretty good spear vs spear.

[MasterKiller]

San Da is not the end-all be-all. You can kick ass with it, but it has limitations.

The idea is to adopt the training METHODS of modern combat sports. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Unless, of course...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m06mgaxk9Y1qcawqao1_400.gif

[MightyB]

sounds like baji pole fighting.

how long were the batons?

six foot in length on the "spears". Not sure on the short weapons "swords".

[MightyB]

San Da is not the end-all be-all. You can kick ass with it, but it has limitations.

The idea is to adopt the training METHODS of modern combat sports. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Unless, of course...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m06mgaxk9Y1qcawqao1_400.gif

True - but I can't think of a better way to eliminate the bad kick boxing that happens in hard sparring. Maybe other people don't have the problem.
----

My personal feeling is that if people are going to kick box anyway, they should at least look like they know what they're doing.

[MasterKiller]

True - but I can't think of a better way to eliminate the bad kick boxing that happens in hard sparring. Maybe other people don't have the problem.

Sparring is sport. Sport fighting looks like kickboxing. If your goal is to get better at sparring, then I agree.

Self-defense is not sport. If your goal is to survive brutal attacks, then I disagree.

[Orion Paximus]

Also the problem is during sparring sessions where you are supposed to be refining all these techniques you've been learning, most everyone resorts to the kickboxing style for various reasons:

1. Don't trust their skills

2. wearing gloves too big to allow for complex hand techniques

3. Wearing slippery foot gear or no shoes which force you to be more careful than if you were just wearing shoes

And typically the teacher has more than one match going on at a time so he can't stop someone in the middle of their match if he/she sees that a student attempted something and failed to try and show the student why they failed. So the student just thinks the technique didn't work and drops it.

I dunno, i recently did a no gear sparring match and every time I do that I just fight better because I feel more comfortable and at ease and I'm not afraid to try techniques in that situation and I can usually get even unrefined tools to work around 60% of the time.

[Raipizo]

I believe there should be a sparring element in classes, or you're missing out on a major part of training. But getting everyone to adapt their Kung fu is like converting the U.S to metric, near impossible.

[David Jamieson]

I believe there should be a sparring element in classes, or you're missing out on a major part of training. But getting everyone to adapt their Kung fu is like converting the U.S to metric, near impossible.

No offense...but:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/5911183_700b.jpg

America, we need to talk ~world

[RenDaHai]

I think the reason everyone resorts to bad kick boxing is because they are forced into attacking positions that they never practice defending from.

I mean, because of the scenario of ring combat you are forced to throw jabs and crosses and kicks in a way that is not like your kung fu, and so when the opponent counters, you have no where to go because you are unfamiliar with those techs. You do most of your practice as defense or using entries which are not possible with gloves.

So because of the scenario you are forced into bad kick boxing because you don't know how to attack otherwise and in gloves.

If you do the scenario thing, i.e set attacker/defender then you can concentrate on your technique.

[Raipizo]

No offense...but:

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/5911183_700b.jpg

America, we need to talk ~world

Hey I didn't say our measurements make any sense lol.

[Syn7]

There is no reason why Americans can't convert. Your scientific community already has. They had no choice. They simply needed a non retarded system. It's just lazy, hard headed, set in their ways type people that hold everyone back. It's so bad in the building industry. In Canada trades still used the old system. Used to drive me nuts. So glad to be done with all that.

[bawang]

wombat combat can be adapted to the ring.

when that baby crawled out of the tv. in a stroke of genius, i immediately performed yellow dragon stirrs the water. the demons was immediately electrocuted.

[B.Tunks]

i think we are talking about bad coaches/teachers and bad training methodology rather than 'bad kickboxing'.

[Kellen Bassette]

There is no reason why Americans can't convert. Your scientific community already has. They had no choice. They simply needed a non retarded system. It's just lazy, hard headed, set in their ways type people that hold everyone back. It's so bad in the building industry. In Canada trades still used the old system. Used to drive me nuts. So glad to be done with all that.

I think about that a lot...everything in our building industry is done the American, (old English) way. Do other countries refer to a 2x4 differently, are they actually different measurements???

I work in the trades and going metric would literally change everything...definitely a better system, but I think it would be a tough adjustment for builders.

[Kellen Bassette]

I dunno, i recently did a no gear sparring match and every time I do that I just fight better because I feel more comfortable and at ease and I'm not afraid to try techniques in that situation and I can usually get even unrefined tools to work around 60% of the time.

I agree. I always feel like I fight better bare handed or with mma gloves than with boxing gloves. I feel like I do have that Kung Fu, look/flavor when I spar in that manner, but when I put boxing gloves on, it seems like parry or seize turns into cover up.

I like Mighty B's comments about teaching a San da base first then incorporating the traditional elements as you go. First, it's easy to learn to fight with boxing or Muay Thai. Kung fu takes a bit longer...not saying you got to spend a lifetime or anything like that, but the more complex nature and shear volume of material...even amongst those who just teach fundamentally, makes it take a bit longer to learn.

I think too many people make the mistake of waiting until their students get somewhat proficient, then have them spar. Your giving them all these wonderful tools, then taking them away from them when they learn they still aren't able to apply them under pressure. Then comes the tendency to discard everything but the most basic punch/kick methods.

Put them under pressure as soon as they can move a little and keep a guard up. Then everything they learn will be tested in fire and they will have more confidence with their techniques.

If you start with next to nothing and have to go through a trial and error process of making it work, I think you'll be more confident with your techniques and more open to refining new things. If you start with a bunch of techniques and a false sense of confidence, then get burned, it can make you gun shy. You may only want to use what's "safe" after that.

You can train for 30 years and if you've never had your head rocked in a fight you have no idea how your going to respond. I've seen so many people who thought they could fight get rocked and instantly forget everything, regress straight to wild swinging.

Why spend 6 months building a foundation under someone only to destroy it the first time they spar hard? Let them learn to deal with resistance and pressure with bare bone basics then teach them to fight.

[Syn7]

I think about that a lot...everything in our building industry is done the American, (old English) way. Do other countries refer to a 2x4 differently, are they actually different measurements???

I work in the trades and going metric would literally change everything...definitely a better system, but I think it would be a tough adjustment for builders.

In Europe, yes they do. In Canada, we use the same standards. And it suuuuucks!

It is not a tough adjustment. Going metric to imperial would be hard, but imperial to metric is easy. Assuming you already know the math for imperial you're good, and metric is just common sense. Moving decimals as opposed to needing paper and a calculator. Within 5 years the only issue would be with renovations. If you aren't smart enough to convert to metric, you shouldn't be building anything that could hurt somebody. I shudder at the thought of how many idiots out there cut so many corners and lazy inspectors dont notice. Our standards are droppin fast in many ways. Like products at walmart, buildings aren't made to last anymore. Your average tower has a 7 year no repair life span, not counting the odd defective part. And that is assuming everyone followed the rules. So weak!

[Kellen Bassette]

In Europe, yes they do. In Canada, we use the same standards. And it suuuuucks!

It is not a tough adjustment. Going metric to imperial would be hard, but imperial to metric is easy. Assuming you already know the math for imperial you're good, and metric is just common sense. Moving decimals as opposed to needing paper and a calculator. Within 5 years the only issue would be with renovations. If you aren't smart enough to convert to metric, you shouldn't be building anything that could hurt somebody. I shudder at the thought of how many idiots out there cut so many corners and lazy inspectors dont notice. Our standards are droppin fast in many ways. Like products at walmart, buildings aren't made to last anymore. Your average tower has a 7 year no repair life span, not counting the odd defective part. And that is assuming everyone followed the rules. So weak!

Are all the materials the same size though? For Instance a common masonry unit, (block) is 8", actually 7 5/8" and allowing 3/8" for a mortar joint...your 2X4, 1.5" x 3.5"....plywood 4 foot x 8 foot...everything is designed for these standard measurements, your doorways, windows ect...are the the European materials all the same size and they just call them by whatever metric measurement they come out to, or are they a little bigger/smaller, to come out to simple measurements?

[Frost]

the kickboxing comment comes up from time to time and in another thread it got me to thinking to just go with it instead of "fighting" against it. So my thought is to just develop good san da skills so it's definitely got that Chinese flavor as a base and then introduce the more "traditional" style specific techniques gradually over time. That way when a person or student hard spars, they'll fall back on solid san da technique instead of trying to improvise kickboxing because they haven't been trained to kick box properly.

I don’t think you got my point, if you have to change what you do because it doesn’t work how you want it to against a trained opponent, and you cant make it look like it does in your normal training….maybe the fault is with what you train and how you train it, not the venue you are trying to make it work in
And since when isn’t sanda traditional? Chinese masters have been fighting each other for centuries do you think they never sparred or did hard contact work before sanda was invented? what is traditional,…forms, complicated trapping? How is a palm strike, jab cross over hand uppercut etc not traditional?

[B.Tunks]

What is bad kickboxing? Kickboxing is a very specific thing. It is not Muay Thai, not Sanda, not boxing, not MMA. Sure they all share common elements but they are distinct entities. How can someone do bad kickboxing unless they are attempting to do kickboxing but doing it poorly? I don’t believe this thing that people commonly describe as ‘bad kickboxing’ is actually that. I also don’t believe something can ‘degenerate’ into kickboxing. It’s like saying that poor baseball degenerates into golf (I think someone has already said something similar here). Kickboxing has its own attack and defence principles, strategies, training methodology and a specific rule-set which clearly defines it. Sounds like I’m splitting hairs but I think it’s a very important point because it comes up endlessly in the ‘why can’t I make my kungfu work’ debate. Why is the question not: ‘when I spar/fight why does my technique degenerate into poor mantis/shaolin/taiji/baji etc?’ What if what you are doing is in fact not bad kickboxing but just bad fighting? Perhaps what you are doing is in fact decent, effective fighting but just doesn’t fit your idea of what kungfu fighting is supposed to look like? (what the hell is kungfu supposed to look like anyway?)

Are you landing strikes, evading, defending well, inflicting damage, dominating/controlling your opponent’s movement, controlling distance, using effective footwork, not gassing, not getting smashed? If so, what’s the problem? If you’re not, work on basics, spar regularly and introduce additional techniques as appropriate/if necessary. If you are already doing these things well and are able to do so against a variety of opponents, again, what more is necessary?

The fact is when two opponents put boxing gloves on and face each other the majority of techniques will be punches, kicks and various combinations thereof. The gloves limit specific hand formations to a certain extent, contributing to the generic nature of strikes, however – the jab, cross, hook, uppercut and overhand all exist in Chinese Boxing and are fundamental. If you are handicapped in boxing gloves the truth may be that you have poor fundamentals and need to do more work. If you are a Tanglang or Shaolin or Choujiao guy who trains in those styles and who’s fundamentals come from that style, is your fighting not Tanglang, Shaolin, Chuojiao, regardless of how it ‘looks’? Do you need to use signature techniques such as gou, lou, cai, diao shou etc to prove what you are? Those techniques are used in very specific circumstances and generally not applied in the back and forth exchange of strikes that occurs in sparring. Read classic quan pu and their usage is specified clearly.

Don’t look down on the meat and potatoes skills of punching and kicking because they are the key elements of fighting. Maybe the question should be what should fighting look like/be like? It should like exactly like that and absolutely nothing at all like taolu or drills. This kind of stuff is mentioned all through the classics as well. If it superficially resembles kickboxing, that’s because it shares common elements and that’s a good thing not a bad thing. Anyway, I’m rambling…

[RenDaHai]

Don’t look down on the meat and potatoes skills of punching and kicking because they are the key elements of fighting. Maybe the question should be what should fighting look like/be like? It should like exactly like that and absolutely nothing at all like taolu or drills. This kind of stuff is mentioned all through the classics as well. If it superficially resembles kickboxing, that’s because it shares common elements and that’s a good thing not a bad thing. Anyway, I’m rambling…

Yes, you should be good at these techniques, and most are. But its to do with the strategy of their employment.

We all have principles in our styles that dictate the strategy of our use.

One in Shaolin is 'Xian Fang Hou Gong'. First defend then enter. The point is the defending movement is there whether there is something to defend or not. If not it acts as a distraction or as opening the opponents guard.

So lets say Lan Shou---cheng quan. If we just do the punch without the 'Lan shou' first, then when the punch misses we find ourselves in an indefensable position. We should only have done the punch having already pushed aside the opponents guard. But because of the set up of the ring where we are constantly forced to attack, and because of the gloves, then most people forgo the Lan shou and just do the punch.

The punch may be excellent but they are not used to defending themselves from here because their strategy is based on progressively taking down the opponents guard then punching as opposed to throwing punches against his guard.

So they end up doing a poor version of kickboxing because they have the punches but not the guard. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well.... do you kinda see what I mean?

[jimbob]

RenDaHai

I did actually compete in an open tournament many years ago with a rule set similar to what you first described. It wasn't so much attack and defense rounds as it was each round, one fighter was expected to 'initiate' the attack. After that, it was all in.

On the whole, it was a cluster**** of monumental proportions, simply because not one person, not even the judges, could determine was 'initiate' meant. In that sense your proposal is a lot clearer. I remember being simultaneously awarded a KO and getting myself disqualified. I was fighting a Kyokushin guy, he feinted a move which to my way of thinking was initiating, so I flattened him with sow choy/bin. His teacher in one corner was up in arms, the muay thai guy in the other corner said I'd won fairly - centre ref at first wanted me out, then decided it was ok...and this kept happening throughout the day.

You know, I can't help wondering what any kickboxer or MMA fighter would be thinking reading this thread. Why do we need to overcomplicate things so much. I've fought under so many different rules - it doesn't matter. Just get in there and mix it up. If I hit the other guy well enough and defend well enough, I win. If I don't, I don't.

I don't know why it should be more complicated than that.

What B Tunks has written is perfect, IMO. If you train to punch, kick, grapple and throw, then this is what you'll do. The more experience you have in pressure tested situations, the less you'll display 'crappy kickboxing'.

I once fought in Manila with the instructions - "No eye , no throat - everting else ...OK!" - and you know something? The Choy Li Fut guys looked like they were doing CLF, the taekwondo guys looked like they were doing tkd (and didn't last very long :D), the Japanese jujutsu fighters were punching, closing and throwing, the Thais were elbowing and kneeing, the karate-ka's were doing karate........

Just get in there and get used to timing, hitting, being hit and not being hit.

It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

[ginosifu]

If basic techniques like jab, cross, round kick etc are what we rely on, why do we have countless systems (Chinese, Japanese, Indian, SE Asian etc) developing specialized strikes like Mantis Hook, Cranes Beak and Pheonis Eye?

If basic meat and potatoe techniques are what we resort to when in sparring / combat sports / San Shou / San Da / Muay Thai etc, then why don't all systems look the same. Why is there a Wing Chun style and Eagle Claw style? Shouldn't they all look the same if when you fight it all looks like kickboxing?

The only answer I have come up with is that we (as modern people) do not practice enough to actually use any specialized techniques. What if the only people that ever used specialized techniques were military personal and those with Monastic life. These individuals may have had jobs as Martial Artists where they practiced fighting 10 hours a day everyday for years and years.


what exactly needs adapting? There are formats that allow both open and closed fist strikes, that allow gloves and no gloves, that allow trapping locks etc

The question shouldnt be how do we adapt our kung fu, the question should be why do we need to

I have an issue with adapting my style to combat sport arenas. In my Monkey style we strictly use eye gauges, groin strikes, nerve strikes etc. If I remove these for any sport match, it is no longer Monkey style. I know I can do other techniques in sport matches but that is San Shou..... Not Monkey Style.

San Shou and San Da are Chinese sport combat. I think the question should be: How can we successfully use specialized techniqes in modern sport combat matches?

ginosifu

[MightyB]

A lot of good comments so far -

Yes we all know metric is easier, but I know 160lbs, I have no idea what that is when you start talking kilos - so it's a real PIA doing some tourneys with international rules.

Gino Sifu brought up a good point about time - it's something that I thought about when I first started this thread. You only get some people for 2hrs a night twice a week, kind've hard to turn someone into a Shaolin warrior on that schedule.

RenDaHai's comment about forced into attacking is something to consider too. It is different with gloves on and in the san da ring. Don't believe me, try it - it's about testing a hypothesis. I can tell you from first hand experience that I spent too much time in traditional training working on the "If, then" defensive training that's found in a lot of traditional across the board martial arts. My experience was in both TCMA and Okinawan styles prior to full contact fighting. There's no problem with solid defensive traditional training, unless you find yourself fighting a runner. The first thing you think is "darn, I should've spent more time learning how to attack".

Sparring should show a degree of skill in distance, timing, attack, defense, countering, dodging, ring manship. I see a lot of sparring footage and the one's that display this the most skill seem to come from the more competitive martial arts styles. Again deferring to and acknowledging the very true statements from David J, Ren, and Master K - that's because sparring is different than fighting.

But to me, the ones that are engaged in sport, even if they come from a traditional base, use a universal style of kickboxing. We already have that with San Da. Maybe that translates better to northern systems - IDK. I just think it's a good way to introduce students to realistic combat and a way to build good habits for use when they do certain styles... because:

Some styles of TCMA are really like Master Degree or Doctorate styles, meaning they weren't intended for beginners. They expected that a student had a certain base knowledge and skill level before they were accepted into the curriculum. I think it's silly to ignore that fact. So why not get a student through a Bachelors degree program before they start training for their Masters degree?

[Orion Paximus]

A lot of good comments so far -
Some styles of TCMA are really like Master Degree or Doctorate styles, meaning they weren't intended for beginners. They expected that a student had a certain base knowledge and skill level before they were accepted into the curriculum. I think it's silly to ignore that fact. So why not get a student through a Bachelors degree program before they start training for their Masters degree?

I agree with this so much. So many TCMA schools (sorry that's my pool of experience I can't speak much to other systems) start off teaching forms and advanced techniques right away instead of going, "Okay this is a front kick, this is a side kick" etc.

Instead they teach them a tiger form or something and chin na. Ultimately without a proper base, all those higher thoughts of combat will just look like crap, and when someone is face to face with an opponent without a proper base, the crazy esoteric stuff they learned will collapse under the onslaught of a fighter who has a grasp of basics.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The more specialized a systems is, the less ideal it is for a beginner.
To continue with the school analogy:
Advance calculus is only practical when you know base calculus and base calculus is only practical when you know basic math.
Start off a beginner with basic and natural fighting: kick boxing with grappling and ground work.
For the VAST majority that will be more than enough.
For those that continue and want to learn more, that is when you go into specializations.

[ginosifu]

The more specialized a systems is, the less ideal it is for a beginner.
To continue with the school analogy:
Advance calculus is only practical when you know base calculus and base calculus is only practical when you know basic math.
Start off a beginner with basic and natural fighting: kick boxing with grappling and ground work.
For the VAST majority that will be more than enough.
For those that continue and want to learn more, that is when you go into specializations.

http://crazysexycool.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/like-button1.jpg

ginosifu

[Orion Paximus]

OMG we all agree on something! Lock this thread now before it brings about the Mayan Apocalypse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Frost]

The more specialized a systems is, the less ideal it is for a beginner.
To continue with the school analogy:
Advance calculus is only practical when you know base calculus and base calculus is only practical when you know basic math.
Start off a beginner with basic and natural fighting: kick boxing with grappling and ground work.
For the VAST majority that will be more than enough.
For those that continue and want to learn more, that is when you go into specializations.

of course the problem then is everyone thinks they are studying calculus and being very clever when in most cases its just plain maths under a bad teacher :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

of course the problem then is everyone thinks they are studying calculus and being very clever when in most cases its just plain maths under a bad teacher :)

Yes, this is a possibility BUT only when people fail to grasp reality.
Lets be honest, you learn a system and this systems is different and exotic and not like typical "kick boxing" and when you use it, you get your ass handed to you by a "typical kick boxer", what do you do if you are smart?

[RenDaHai]

In my experience the overwhelming majority of people being attacked don't even try to hit back. Even amongst MAists.

There are a lot of reasons for this. Kickboxing is useless to these people.

Given this the first thing to do is to teach someone how to take a beating as well as possible. Then I'd teach the rest of the basics.

[Frost]

Yes, this is a possibility BUT only when people fail to grasp reality.
Lets be honest, you learn a system and this systems is different and exotic and not like typical "kick boxing" and when you use it, you get your ass handed to you by a "typical kick boxer", what do you do if you are smart?

well i quit for 10 years and studied thai boxing, wrestling and MMA but hey thats just me :), then i went back and sort out a teacher who can teacher BOTH the exotic stuff and the meat and potatoes and train it alongside the other stuff to try to keep myself level headed

But lets be honest if we asked for a show of hands here from people that think they are training basuc and boring stuff, only Bwang would probably raise his hand the vast majority would say im learning something advanced special etc which is fine but as you say lets not kid ourselves

[Orion Paximus]

As long as you are testing yourself regularly with sparring/fighting matches, there is no way to kid yourself. I haven't done any of the new "standard" fighting MAs, i've only continued to train my my system with a few seminars of other styles for fun. But I regularly fight outside of my system and do as often as I'm given a chance to.

[Jimbo]

The more specialized a systems is, the less ideal it is for a beginner.
To continue with the school analogy:
Advance calculus is only practical when you know base calculus and base calculus is only practical when you know basic math.
Start off a beginner with basic and natural fighting: kick boxing with grappling and ground work.
For the VAST majority that will be more than enough.
For those that continue and want to learn more, that is when you go into specializations.

Excellent post.

I find that most (though not all) of the people I've seen or known who can use CMA the most effectively tend to have had a background in more commonly-known/"orthodox" methods of fighting, such as karate, kickboxing, judo, boxing, etc., before CMA. Some might disagree, but IMO, previous, non-kung fu experience is certainly an advantage going in. I know it certainly gave me a stronger base of experience than if I'd only trained CMA from the start. Not only the methods themselves, but also the sheer numbers of partners/opponents you have to work with/against in the more popular methods.

One of the great things about CLF, for example, is that, although it has its unique characteristics, it is NOT an art with a narrow specialization, so it's very flexible and adaptable; if it's trained correctly, one can learn to spar with it relatively quickly and naturally compared to many kung fu systems.

[GeneChing]

...but for a brief moment, I considered titling my latest ezine review 'ring fu'.

I went with THE HOBBIT: AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY the Most Expected Film (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1076).

[MightyB]

...but for a brief moment, I considered titling my latest ezine review 'ring fu'.

I went with THE HOBBIT: AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY the Most Expected Film (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1076).

That would've been awesome!

Already read your review.

- I'm seeing it tomorrow.

[GeneChing]

And we'll look forward to your review here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59837).

Now what were we talking about? The Mayan Apocalypse (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64922), was it?


OMG we all agree on something! Lock this thread now before it brings about the Mayan Apocalypse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Raipizo]

of course the problem then is everyone thinks they are studying calculus and being very clever when in most cases its just plain maths under a bad teacher :)

I don't even like math!

[Raipizo]

As long as you are testing yourself regularly with sparring/fighting matches, there is no way to kid yourself. I haven't done any of the new "standard" fighting MAs, i've only continued to train my my system with a few seminars of other styles for fun. But I regularly fight outside of my system and do as often as I'm given a chance to.

As long as the system doesn't have you fighting like you're doing a sparring form you should be okay lol. If you're still doing the basic sparring stuff where it would actually be applicable in real life then you're doing yourself a favor by sparring.

[Lebaufist]

There in lies the rub. Today there are a lot of people in an either/or split in the CMA psyche. You are either doing lots of forms OR you're doing a lot of sparring going along a ruleset. You seldomly get those who do BOTH anymore.

There is no real need to "adapt" kung fu. Just use more of it. Lets see it your foot work. Not just waddle in when standing. Lets see that body structure change to power your strikes. Lets see it in your defense and well as offense. Lets see it in your strategies. You can't use "mantis hand" if you don't KNOW it. Even if you only draw and lock ONCE, at least you used it.

[bawang]

In my experience the overwhelming majority of people being attacked don't even try to hit back. Even amongst MAists.


they have hardened their fists, but havent hardened their hearts.

you dont fight with your fists. you fight with your heart.

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight? this is the fallacy of the MA hobby culture.

[YouKnowWho]

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight?
When someone tries to rob you and you know that you may be poorer than that person, not only you may fight back, you may rob him afterward. You will have a lot of courage when you are young, single, poor, and with nothing to lose.

This is why old Chinese saying said, "If you wear shoes, you should not mess with those who is barefoot."

[Kellen Bassette]

they have hardened their fists, but havent hardened their hearts.

you dont fight with your fists. you fight with your heart.

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight? this is the fallacy of the MA hobby culture.

That was beautiful....

[Syn7]

they have hardened their fists, but havent hardened their hearts.

you dont fight with your fists. you fight with your heart.

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight? this is the fallacy of the MA hobby culture.


When someone tries to rob you and you know that you may be poorer than that person, not only you may fight back, you may rob him afterward. You will have a lot of courage when you are young, single, poor, and with nothing to lose.

This is why old Chinese saying said, "If you wear shoes, you should not mess with those who is barefoot."

Two very good points! Intent is far more valuable than execution! If you want somebody dead and they simply want to hold you, you will most likely win. In a fair match, that is. Of course if like 40 cops come at you hard tactical, what's in your heart really can't help you much.

[Kellen Bassette]

Two very good points! Intent is far more valuable than execution! If you want somebody dead and they simply want to hold you, you will most likely win. In a fair match, that is. Of course if like 40 cops come at you hard tactical, what's in your heart really can't help you much.

So what your saying is "we should be asking ourselves how we can adapt out Kung fu to combat the oppressing paramilitaries?" :cool:

[RenDaHai]

they have hardened their fists, but havent hardened their hearts.

you dont fight with your fists. you fight with your heart.

if you dont know rage and hate, how can you fight? this is the fallacy of the MA hobby culture.

I like it.

I kind of agree with you there. But 'ShaXin' rage and hate, should we try to teach those things? Isn't that making their life worse?

Thats why I think for MA 'Hobbyists' learning a solid defence is the most important thing, because realistically thats the only bit their mind will let them use.

[Syn7]

So what your saying is "we should be asking ourselves how we can adapt out Kung fu to combat the oppressing paramilitaries?" :cool:


Lol. get some friends and suit up, otherwise you are ****ed! There is no hand style that will prepare you for a surprise flashbang followed by 40 guys capping you with rubber bullets and smashing your face in with tac shields!

[Syn7]

I like it.

I kind of agree with you there. But 'ShaXin' rage and hate, should we try to teach those things? Isn't that making their life worse?

Thats why I think for MA 'Hobbyists' learning a solid defence is the most important thing, because realistically thats the only bit their mind will let them use.

Nada wrong with hobby MA's. Just don't be delusional about it and you're golden!

[B.Tunks]

Gino Sifu-

GS: If basic techniques like jab, cross, round kick etc are what we rely on, why do we have countless systems (Chinese, Japanese, Indian, SE Asian etc) developing specialized strikes like Mantis Hook, Cranes Beak and Pheonis Eye?

BT: We were talking about competition and sparring though. Regarding ‘specialized’ strikes, in honestly a lot of them are useless except in very specific (generally unrealistic) circumstances. There are many reasons why we have countless systems. Many of these systems are also useless for combat.

GS: If basic meat and potatoe techniques are what we resort to when in sparring / combat sports / San Shou / San Da / Muay Thai etc, then why don't all systems look the same. Why is there a Wing Chun style and Eagle Claw style? Shouldn't they all look the same if when you fight it all looks like kickboxing?

BT: Again, talking about sparring and combat sports - my argument is that when you play to a certain rule set and use equipment such as boxing gloves, most systems will look very similar/function the same way. Of course each system/school will have its technical specialties, strategies (just any individual fighter will) but ultimately it will not vary too widely. If you are talking about MMA rule-set then you would expect that we might see a little more of these ‘unique’ technical specialities. Funnily enough we don’t really see it happen too often. Mainly because generic punching, kicking, clinching, throwing techniques are the most effective under the circumstances.

GS: The only answer I have come up with is that we (as modern people) do not practice enough to actually use any specialized techniques. What if the only people that ever used specialized techniques were military personal and those with Monastic life. These individuals may have had jobs as Martial Artists where they practiced fighting 10 hours a day everyday for years and years.

BT: There is a place for the kind of technique you are talking about but its definitely not combat sports. I don’t believe for one minute though that there are deadly techniques that cannot be mastered in a short period of time by modern people. Pretty much everything under the sun in regards to unarmed combat has already been worked out and the handful of deadly techniques that actually work are already well known and can be readily applied by the average physically capable modern adult with minimal training.

GS: I have an issue with adapting my style to combat sport arenas. In my Monkey style we strictly use eye gauges, groin strikes, nerve strikes etc. If I remove these for any sport match, it is no longer Monkey style. I know I can do other techniques in sport matches but that is San Shou..... Not Monkey Style.

BT: You don't need to adapt your style (though it might be a good idea, especially if you're going to fight other styles). Your style is either useful in a range of venues or its not. If your style only consists of eye gouges, groin strikes and nerve strikes then where do you go beyond those things? They have their place, but you will be lucky if you pull those kind of attacks off more then once or twice in any real fight and if you haven’t taken out someone’s eye or dropped them with a vagus nerve strike then you’re going to do nothing but annoy the sh.it out of your opponent – unless you have a solid punch, kick, grapple game to fall back on. If your style doesn't have basic punch, kick, knee, elbow attacks and combinations then it is deficient, or at least at a disadvantage VS any other that does.

GS: San Shou and San Da are Chinese sport combat. I think the question should be: How can we successfully use specialized techniqes in modern sport combat matches?

BT: If Sanda (or Muay Thai) is not a good enough rule-set then the answer is MMA. Train your specialized techniques the same way you would train any other technique and attempt to apply them there. If MMA is not a suitable ruleset then forget about it. If you’re talking about the ‘too deadly’ techs (eyes, nerves, groin etc), save it for assault and battery or self-defence situations and pray to god they work because they're generally untested under duress. Those things can be applied in a very narrow window during combat and the proportion of attention devoted to them should be adjusted accordingly.

BT

[YouKnowWho]

Fighting can be categoried as:

1. Fight for live and death - you want to kill.
2. Tournament competation - you want to win by rules when referee is on site.
3. Unfriendly challenge - you want to hurt your opponent so no one wants to challenge you again.
4. Friendly sparring - you want to protect your training partner so he will spar with you next day.

[bawang]

I like it.

I kind of agree with you there. But 'ShaXin' rage and hate, should we try to teach those things? Isn't that making their life worse?

Thats why I think for MA 'Hobbyists' learning a solid defence is the most important thing, because realistically thats the only bit their mind will let them use.

for ma hobbyists the most important thing is to open their mind to see the world in a different way, to transform their soul.

failing that, they would only be good for milking.

[YouKnowWho]

If you want somebody dead and they simply want to hold you, you will most likely win.

This is why it's very stupid for a young guy to challenge an old guy. For that young guy, he just wants to test his skill. For the old guy, it's his life reputation that he needs to protect. The young guy may follow the friendly sparring rules while the old guy may want to hurt the young guy badly. It won't be a fair fight after all.

[MightyB]

I'm not so much advocating changing the style as I am in changing the practitioner. Here's my hypothesis: "Making a person a good San Da player will make them a better traditional martial artist".

In order to do that you must first learn how to teach solid San Da / San Shou using the San Da methods that have already been developed and tested in one on one combat. That way, the student has that skill and will always have that skill. Teach the sh*t out of specialized TCMA tech to the student for the rest of his or her life -

[Frost]

I'm not so much advocating changing the style as I am in changing the practitioner. Here's my hypothesis: "Making a person a good San Da player will make them a better traditional martial artist".

In order to do that you must first learn how to teach solid San Da / San Shou using the San Da methods that have already been developed and tested in one on one combat. That way, the student has that skill and will always have that skill. Teach the sh*t out of specialized TCMA tech to the student for the rest of his or her life -

But this hypothesis is wrong, sanda is simply fighting under an agreed rule set, if you cant do this after training your TCMA, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your TCMA
Any decent TCMA should teach solid fundermental fighting skills first, if its not then whats you point of it?

[MightyB]

But this hypothesis is wrong, sanda is simply fighting under an agreed rule set, if you cant do this after training your TCMA, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your TCMA
Any decent TCMA should teach solid fundermental fighting skills first, if its not then whats you point of it?

This is fundamentally wrong based on my point of view.

That's the whole point of a forum.

My point of view is 10yrs traditional, job change, then the only people that I had to play with were Judo, MMA (boxing & wrestling heavy), and BJJ. So my goal has been to use and adapt what I knew to those environments which I feel I've been pretty successful with but I do realize the journey of making that shift could've been easier if I would've just done regular San Da full time at some point in my earlier MA life. Doesn't mean that would've been the end-all be-all of that martial experience, but it could've been a good starting point or base to build on which some people may or may not agree with.

That doesn't mean that is everybody's path, just mine. But I also, IMO, see a lot of bad fundamental sparring when I see TCMA clips. It's my opinion based on my point of view based on my personal experience. Using my worldview, a stubborn traditionalist would've had their arse handed to them time and time again in any of the non-traditional environments that I've been to.

[Frost]

This is fundamentally wrong based on my point of view.

That's the whole point of a forum.

My point of view is 10yrs traditional, job change, then the only people that I had to play with were Judo, MMA (boxing & wrestling heavy), and BJJ. So my goal has been to use and adapt what I knew to those environments which I feel I've been pretty successful with but I do realize the journey of making that shift could've been easier if I would've just done regular San Da full time at some point in my earlier MA life. Doesn't mean that would've been the end-all be-all of that martial experience, but it could've been a good starting point or base to build on which some people may or may not agree with.

That doesn't mean that is everybody's path, just mine. But I also, IMO, see a lot of bad fundamental sparring when I see TCMA clips. It's my opinion based on my point of view based on my personal experience. Using my worldview, a stubborn traditionalist would've had their arse handed to them time and time again in any of the non-traditional environments that I've been to.

But there’s the rub of it, stubborn traditionalists are a modern phenomenon, in the past when people actually depended on their arts to survive do you think they were bothered if something new came along and was better…..did they think twice about changing what they did if it wasn’t as good, WFH and hung gar for example

And what is bad fundamental sparring? and what do you consider good fundamental sparring can you most clips of good sparring? Because I honestly don’t think I have seen a good sparring clip from TCMA that doesn’t look like kickboxing good or bad…. is that a bad thing? and if so what has happened to make this divergence between what an actual fight looks like and how we train in TCMA?

I guess my point is TCMA should be about fighting, where did things go that wrong that people aren’t getting the sound fundamentals from their style that they should be getting?

And as an aside how many people here have actually made the supposedly more advanced stuff work against a good opponent is sparring or a fight? Just wondering

[MightyB]

And what is bad fundamental sparring?

Extending the lead arm too far, reaching for kicks, not using the non-dominant hand offensively, turned too far in (in their defensive stance) to prevent a single leg or double leg with a sprawl, no head movement, not keeping hands up to protect the head, "limp" jabs rather than "stinging" jabs, lack of offensive combination attacks, standing on one leg and reaching, too much forward and backward straight line running, waiting on the opponent to do something rather than creating openings, flailing about rather than controlled aggressive movement, heavy flat feet...

[MightyB]

Because I honestly don’t think I have seen a good sparring clip from TCMA that doesn’t look like kickboxing good or bad…. is that a bad thing?

This is my point all along. Why fight against that concept when you can just go ahead and develop good kick boxing habits when a student is just beginning? Do whatever training you want after that base is developed. That way they always have that base to draw from when the cr@p hits the fan and they'll be better for it IMO.

[YouKnowWho]

"Making a person a good San Da player will make them a better traditional martial artist".
Agree with you 100% there.

In San Da, after you have caught your opponent's kicking leg, You either pull/sweep/hook his standing leg, he will be down. After you are good at both leg catch and pull/sweep/hook take down, you then go back to your style and look for moves that match these application. You may be surprise that you may not be able to find both the leg catch and pull/sweep/hook counters against kicking in your style/form.

In San Da, you will find that the best striking combo is jab, cross, hook, hook, or jab, cross, upper cut, upper cut. After you have detected that and use it well to against your opponent, you then go back to your style/form to find this combo. You may also not be able to find it.

Why? Did the original style/form creator had never

- caught his opponent's kicking leg and used pull/sweep/hook to take his opponent down?
- used 2 straight punches followed by 2 curve punches?

If you put 2 kids to spar each other for 2 years, they may be able to figure out how to use these 2 skills without any TCMA teacher. If that's possible then why these 2 basic combat skills are not in "ALL" TCMA systems?