Is Karate Kungfu? I dont think so, what is the real answer

[Vettrix]

I have been looking high and low in my area (Monterey) to find Kungfu lessons. I have talked to an instructor, and a couple Karate places. They all told me Kungfu was not in our area and was a rarity. Today, I spoke with a Karate Black belt who actually teaches and she said that all Karate IS Kungfu. I feel that statment was not an educated one and because of it, I should surely NOT take private lessons from her. Besides, she got a little defensive when I told her I wanted to take a look at the style of Tang Sudo classes before I make my final decision between that and Shotokan. Any thoughts also on Tang Sudo? It sounded interesting by the description. Please help, I am so frustrated with this whole search for what is real.

[Mr. Nemo]

Karate is not Kung Fu.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

It's Korean Shotokan (Basically) very real.

What style does your Girlfriend teach?

What are you looking for in a style?

Do you want to learn how to fight or for Self defence?

Are you interested in Spirituality and healing?

Don't loose hope, we can help you :D :rolleyes: :D

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[Johnny Hot Shot]

You can attain kung fu from practicing karate.

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[Gatekeeper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vettrix:Today, I spoke with a Karate Black belt who actually teaches and she said that all Karate IS Kungfu. I feel that statment was not an educated one and because of it, I should surely NOT take private lessons from her.[/quote]
What?!!! I've never heard of that. JohnyHS, are you serious? Could you explain it to me if it is? Thanks.

The Gatekeeper

[wushu chik]

Sounds like a place we have in Oregon...Samurai Karate in Medford, OR. They "claim" they know like 7 different styles, and they are the BEST school in the area. Now...let me think...um, NO-I DON'T THINK SO.. it's pretty funny...

www.samuraikarate.com (http://www.samuraikarate.com)

it's for good laughs!

I am ALWAYS Kung Fu Fighting.....what about you?

[Wongsifu]

johnny is rite you can attain kung fu from practising karate :D

also i guess high level karate is very very similar to some kung fu. such as hung gar

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[David]

I had the pleasure of a long talk with a karate master back along. He was all circles and sensitivity and used ki/chi. He demonstrated some limb paralysis on me. He hardly touched my arm and it hung limp until he touched it again. That was a bit frightening!

So karate can be kungfu. Karate started as kungfu, after all. It just misses the point in many cases.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[bustr]

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Monterey&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=kung+fu&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off

[Sam Wiley]

How can they claim to teach Kugn Fu when they list all the styles they teach right there on their site, and not one of them is a Kung Fu style?

There used to be a warning to people who wanted to learn Kung Fu, telling them that there is no such beast as a school that teaches Kung Fu as well as Karate. Whatever happened to that?

*********

[Wu Wei]

Kung Fu actually has a definition to it, so anything that fits that definition IS Kung Fu.
Simple.
It may not be what one may consider Original Kung Fu, but Karate is Kung Fu.
Kung Fu is how you develope yourself.
From what I've been told it doesn't translate perfectly but that may be wrong. However, I believe Kung Fu means something like "Growth through diligent practice".

That's what I've been told and I always believe what I'm told. ;)

Success is a label made by the insecure.

[BAI HE]

Do your homework!

Read "Okinawan Karate" by Mark Bishop.
All Karate came from Fouchou China to the Ryuku Empire (Okinawa). All, not some. ALL.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Shorin = Shaolin

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[NorthernMantis]

What's wrong with you people!!

Karate is not Chinese Martial Arts!.

Anyone can attaing kung fu in anything.Piano,literature,etc.

He wasn't talking about skill achieved over time or hard work, he was asking if Karate is the same as the Chinese martial arts known as kung fu here in the west.

Quick lesson:Chinese martial arts have had many diferent names over the years and not once it was called Karate

Karate,Judo,Kenjutsu,Ninpo = Japanese

Kung fu,wu shu(traditional and contemporary),Chuen Fa/Kuen Fa,Kuo shu,etc.. = Not Japanese

Karate may have some influences from kung fu but it's not kung fu.Karate does not completely come from kung fu it, also came from the art know as Te[sp?].

Hope you know the diference now.

"Always be ready"

"right, that's it!you've insulted me, and you've insulted the shaolin temple!"-Fish of Furry

[rogue]

Are all CMA "kung fu"?

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

[MonkeySlap Too]

Karate will drill in muscle memory that will make next to impossible to really understand CMA.

But while I tend to think most Karate is for fighting people who are slow, stupid and unsophisticated, I've known some pretty tough Karate guys.

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[Grahf1]

What's this? We are allowed to bash Karate in this forum?

[Kung Lek]

Karate is Karate.

If someone was in taiwan practicing karate in a park and thugs came along and tried to mug him and he put a stop to it with his karate, anyone who was looking would say "his kung fu is good" :D

Funny world we live in, dualism rules the day for most of us.

Personally, I can't wait to get over my own impatience. ;)

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[honorisc]

All Chinese martial arts are not Kung-Fu--that wrestling that's named because of a horn on the head.

Skill in almost anything could be considered Kung-Fu. But Kung-Fu here is a reference to the stuff considered a martial art. Karate is Okinawan. Okinawa was not part of Japan when Karate came into being. Before the early mid nineteen thirties (After the reference point, old) the kara in Karate refered to the nick-name for China. Te did and still does refer to Hand. Okinawan martial arts, empty hand got to be referred to as China Hands because a hundred or so artisans and craftspeople and their families went to Okinawa on an exchange type program and the prevalent martial arts~ of China--Kung-Fu got taught to the Okinawans. Whatever the Okinawans were doing before, there theoretically was a significant amount of Kung-Fu to it to keep a name of China Hands. When it got to Japan some things might not have been broadly taught (Okinawans feeling towards the overtaking Japanese~) but there's enough in the generality of Kung-Fu which does have basic blocks (though perhaps evoled by use) and punches (perhaps evolved by use/need). After early mid nineteen thirties (After the reference point, old) The character used to represent the sound kara in Karate was changed from China (Chinese) to empty.~ Perhaps some such, so to speak (shake a can).

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[NorthernMantis]

Couldn't have said it better No_Know

Hey that stuff made sense.Are you starting to slip N_K?

"Always be ready"

"right, that's it!you've insulted me, and you've insulted the shaolin temple!"-Fish of Furry

[BAI HE]

"Karate will drill in muscle memory that will make next to impossible to really understand CMA."

That's absurd. Most styles drill basics. The basics are what will save you in the street.

"But while I tend to think most Karate is for fighting people who are slow, stupid and unsophisticated, I've known some pretty tough Karate guys."

And Kung Fu is for what? Flowery internal death strikes against overly sophisticated lighning fast warrior Monks hell bent on overthrowing the Ming?
I've seen a few tough Kung-Fu guys as well.

[omegapoint]

Bai He, Kung Lek, Wu Wei, Johnny Hot Shot, and most especially No Know are on point, and they all give good replies to your query.

Kara= originally the character or kanji for this term gave tribute to the Tang dynasty and the fact that half of the equation and the progenitor style was Chuan Fa or Kung Fu. Kempo or Kenpo literally translates into "Chuan Fa". A few Okinawan styles still refer to their art as Kempo or Kenpo. Later after the Japanese took control of the islands and the Chinese influence was frowned upon, the term Kara was changed to the Japanese character which meant "empty".

The "Te" or "hand" portion comes from the Japanized term for Okinawan 'Ti', which was the indigenous fighting traditions of the Ryukyus (Okinawa). The closed fist was used in a way similar to western boxing and many of the openhand techs were changed to fist techs. The Okinawan styles (all of them) used Chinese Anatomical principles as well as their own methodologies to implement the fore/index knuckle strike. The modern anatomical validity of this tech has been verified through current medical knowledge. PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT of "ti", is its use of many tegumi/tuite/gyakute/Okinawan Sumo- more Judo Newaza-ish, than jap. sumo- techniques. These are akin to Chin-na, Aikido, original Japanese JiuJitsu (old Kodokan Judo and before) albeit unique in principle and application, and are lost or were never learned by 99% of Japanese stylists. Also prressure points play a big role in understanding the Okinawan civil fighting traditions, and not so much in the Japanese arts. So they should only claim to practice Kara, w/o the Te or Ti.

Kobudo or Kobujutsu, or weapons science, was also taught and many of these principles were again an amalgamation of Sino-Ryukyan traditions. Some examples of Okinawan arts with a good amount of Gung Fu stuff in their fighting are Uechi-Ryu (Pangai Noon), Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Ryu (some Shorin subsystems are almost completely Japanese sport now)and Matsumura Kempo, Kobayashi (Shorinkan) Shorin Ryu, Seibukan and Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kempo (not Dillman's crap), some Isshin Ryu, and some Ryukyuan Goju Ryu. There are others but these are the ones most identified as being Koryu or "old school".

My style is from the White Crane (Hakutsuru) tradition so I will say that it is very similar to "GungFu". At the same time we learn many Ti principles which only loosely resemble the Chin Na contained in White Crane. Japanese and Korean Karate (incl.Tang Soo Do), don't contain a lot of these original elements. But like Japanese and Korean Karate, Okinawan KaraTe is a hybrid ("old school cross-training"), possibly a bit more vigorous, but nonetheless a mixture of two great fighting traditions.

Tang Soo Do is ahh-ight. It's Shotokan (Japanese Shorin) with aikido mixed in. You can learn some things about fighting, but many of the principles are "iffy" at best. You won't find many good MAs schools or instructors, PERIOD. Watch classes and talk to the Sifu, Guru, Sensei or teacher about their style. Research styles on your own and make the correct judgement for yourself when you're done. Good luck and happy training.

[prana]

Kung Fu = hard work / excellence / perfection strive

so wot was the debate about ?

[JasBourne]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And Kung Fu is for what? Flowery internal death strikes against overly sophisticated lighning fast warrior Monks hell bent on overthrowing the Ming?
[/quote]

Yup. Soon as those pesky Ching-loving warrior Monks show up, we're set. Bam! Two weeks later, they're all dead from internal injuries. I've personally trained my dogs to bark like maniacs as soon as they smell a monk.

Can karate do that? Huh? HUH?? Didn't think so. Karate sux.

:D

[Johnny Hot Shot]

I thought we alrady established that it is the Martial artist that sux not the style. :D

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[rogue]

A little while back I picked up 14 of Joo Bang Lee's Hwarangdo tapes. While it shares some commonality with the hard strikes and footwork of TKD, the majority of techniques and priciples seemed very soft and CMA-like. Oddly I didn't really notice much Aikido in the art, but did see what looked like chin na and aiki-jutsu.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

[dre_doggX]

Karate's roots came from kungfu.

Its like you take someone from their natvie country to the U.S
that person is American but style can me Korean, African, RUssian , JApanese or whatever.

some martial arts in Okinawa style resemble kungfu.
in fact the Pinan in many karate styles almost universal(but it veries,this is something I found on the web)
was made when an Okinawan took a "KUNG FU FORM" he learn from a freind who was Chinese and broke it down to in can be simply learned.
of course it change some and mixed with Native Okinawan methods(which probably came from China way earlier)
I can tell you for a fact the founder of Goju-karate
studied in China and his teacher studied in China
Karate it self really means Chinese hand so does Tang Soo int the word Tang soo Do it's Korean Translation Empty hand was just a philosphy name.
Many Katas in karate are named after Chinese Martial arts or Okinawans who have been to China.
I meet a Shotokan guy.
very good at understanding the internal principals.
is there a gap between karate and Kungfu?
maybe
but really I think its because alot of us cant see the bridge.
Karate is suppose to be fulid in it's higher levels.

One of may freinds showed me a muscle toning kata that build hard qi gong.
its Chinese by history but its still a karate kata taught in Issyhin Ryu Karate
and get this
the stance is similar to the pigeon toed stance in Wing Chun
and the punching is even similar to depending on style.
think on this before you judge

Andre Lashley

[rogue]

Sounds like the Sanchin kata.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban


There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' Patton

[Shaolindynasty]

Yeah the Sam Chein(3 wars) form is in 5 anscestors fist. That form is definately Chinese in origin. I think there is alot that seperates Karate and Kungfu but neither is better and as a fighting art both can develop good skills. The philosophy aspect is alot different though. I am not sure about Okinawa but Japanese Karate's philosophy came from Samuri(soldiers and killers by trade with an ethical code), Kungfu's philosophy came from Buddhism and Taoism monks who advocate build yourself first and the fighting is a by product. CMA go deeper into internal energy and have developed more precise movements to do so but that is really most effective for cultivation and takes along time before it is used for fighting. While on the other side Karate has developed a ride or die attitude making them powerful and brutal. Personally I don't think the two are the same at all but they can bring about similar results.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[dacheng]

Basically the term kung-fu was almost never used in China with meaning 'martial arts'. It was just used to describe high skill in anything. And for martial arts there were many terms, like: quan, quanfa, quanshu, wushu, wuyi, wugong and other. For some time in first half of 20th century the term guoshu, created by nationalists was used (and is still used in Taiwan). The use of the term kung-fu in the West is mainly result of a misunderstanding, and maybe of the fact that for long time most Chinese immigrants to US were coming from poor (at that time) southern province Guangdong, where it seems they used this term regarding MA more often then elswhere (anyway some people maintain such opinion). Presently in China the term wushu is used, and it doesn't mean only the modern sport, flashy wushu. This term includes all chinese MA. The term wushu appeared first time in 4th century if I remember correctly. It's meaning is 'martial arts'. It was quite often used at beginning of 20 century, before the nationalists started promoting the term guoshu: 'national arts'. After 1949 in China they returned to the term wushu. Even though the modern sport wushu was promoted, this term was and is used also regarding all traditional chinese m.a. (what in the West is called kung-fu). Generally wushu is being divided into 2 groups: this sport wushu, known as jingsai wushu (competition wushu) or xiandai wushu (modern wushu) and all other styles that people practice, which is called chuantong wushu (traditional wushu) or minjian wushu (people's wushu)

Andrzej Kalisz
yiquan@yiquan.com.pl
http://www.yiquan.com.pl