Engagement with Wing Chun

[JPinAZ]

To spark some serious wing chun discussion, I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are on how we 'engage' with our opponent within the Wing Chun system. To keep it simple, for now I'll only define 'Engage' as going from no contact to contact with an attacking opponent.

Listing techniques alone won't cut it IMO. As WC practitioners, I would think we all should also be able to provide supporting concepts/principles/theories that back the techniques as it is commonly accepted that wing chun is a principle based system.

Also, if you don't like my simple definition of 'engage', feel free to include how you would define it along with your answer.

[anerlich]

I guess I'm looking to "bridge the gap" / enter, occupy the centre and control/restrict the opponent's limbs while striking at his center.

e.g. TWC entry technique, moving to the outside, my palm on his forward elbow, leading to a larp sao and my foot on his while punching him in the face.

[GlennR]

I guess I'm looking to "bridge the gap" / enter, occupy the centre and control/restrict the opponent's limbs while striking at his center.


Im much the same.... strike, deal with limbs if i have to, try to get his COG, stay in that "WC range"

[imperialtaichi]

Create opportunity and utilize the environment.

[wingchunIan]

depend on what the other guy is doing and what range we start from. Assuming that the opponent isn't closing range for me, then as others have said I too would look to close the range as quickly as possible. If the opponent's arms are central I angle if they are wide I'd go straight. If the ability to strike unimpeded is presented I will take it everytime but if not I will always look to distract / draw a response either using kicks, feints / mun sao or short blasts of force (pak, jum etc).
Tough question to answer without narrowing down the variables.

[EternalSpring]

I'm still not as far in the system as most of you, so dont be alarmed if my efficiency in movement isn't at it's most economical.

For me, and this is purely based on sparring rather than street fights or anything like that, i usually use side stepping and cutting in using diagonal lines of movement, if that makes sense. I'll add a kick or so into this as I enter kicking range/distance, but I dont like to hang out in that distance for too long. Once I'm close to the being within arms distance, I tend to throw a lower faster kick mainly for the purpose of quickly cutting the distance and either attacking or using mun sao. Before I enter this distance, I may also use a type of shuffle where i twist my hip to switch my lead and rear legs. I mainly do this because, at least at my level and the level of the people I spar with, this sudden shift from either "southpaw" to "orthodox" or vice versa changes the situation enough that moving in shortly after leaves the opponent with less time to really think of what he's going to do. At this point, I feel that I'm completely engaged.

sounds like a long process but it really only takes a matter of seconds when applied.

[Yoshiyahu]

Attack, if attacks me back defend and attack simultaneously. control his center line...My entry technique to closed the gap is to attack. Once i have bridge if possible i will kick his supporting leg while i strike him simultaneously.

Example I approach my opponent he throws an quick jab...i pak da and press his attacking arm on his body while striking his nose and turning his body as i kick is back knee inward an stomp or push so he collaspes while i continue to stike his melon! But thats all theory based not reality...

[Happy Tiger]

Combatively , I am like a snow plow.If I have no security protocol to follow ,I attack the center and all combed opponent tools dealt with and center dominated

[Graham H]

Silly question! How can you know until you are attacked or engaged in a fight? Best I can do is apply an idea to it. We must intercept an attack with are own or pre empt an attack and attack first. Failing that or if too dangerous...run like f**k.

[Graham H]

Combatively , I am like a snow plow.If I have no security protocol to follow ,I attack the center and all combed opponent tools dealt with and center dominated


In an ideal world perhaps but in real life maybe you have been hit already. Maybe you are out numbered. Maybe you have lost already because the guy in front of you is foaming at the mouthg with a blade in his hand.

Refer to my previous comment. Getting involved in a "from no contact to contact (engagement)" coversation is pointless. There are too many factors to warrant it.

In Wing Chun people like to talk about going in with a pak sau, chain punch or angling in etc etc etc. It's stupid and for Kung Fu movie freaks!

Go out and have a fight first and then tell everybody how you fared if that floats your boat but do not speculate!

[jimhalliwell]

To spark some serious wing chun discussion, I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are on how we 'engage' with our opponent within the Wing Chun system. To keep it simple, for now I'll only define 'Engage' as going from no contact to contact with an attacking opponent.

Listing techniques alone won't cut it IMO. As WC practitioners, I would think we all should also be able to provide supporting concepts/principles/theories that back the techniques as it is commonly accepted that wing chun is a principle based system.

Also, if you don't like my simple definition of 'engage', feel free to include how you would define it along with your answer.

I would "attack his attack" ie punch him in the face!:D

[leeshing]

To spark some serious wing chun discussion, I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are on how we 'engage' with our opponent within the Wing Chun system. To keep it simple, for now I'll only define 'Engage' as going from no contact to contact with an attacking opponent.

Listing techniques alone won't cut it IMO. As WC practitioners, I would think we all should also be able to provide supporting concepts/principles/theories that back the techniques as it is commonly accepted that wing chun is a principle based system.

Also, if you don't like my simple definition of 'engage', feel free to include how you would define it along with your answer.

I think a simple answer cant be applied here there are to many variables awareness I believe is the best defence if your are in a position to sense something is wrong and you kinda know its going to kick off I would say leave why you can why engage at all but if not attack first dont wait to counter thats how you lose and sometimes all the training in the world wont help once the fear of a attack takes over I worked for many years on the doors and I have seen men built like brick Sxxt houses freeze and just not been able to do anything once it kicked off

[jimhalliwell]

. If the opponent's arms are central I angle if they are wide I'd go straight. If the ability to strike unimpeded is presented I will take it everytime but if not I will always look to distract / draw a response either using kicks, feints / mun sao or short blasts of force (pak, jum etc).
Tough question to answer without narrowing down the variables.


I would not do this, ie "if the opponents arms are central I angle if they are wide i go straight"

Just because your opponent looks like he has a good center means nothing! you need to attack it! , test it, it may well be weak.Due to your training you could well have a better center than your opponent so use your training. While attacking center if he swings a hook due to your training your ready! I never go by what i see you should really work off what you feel all the time.imo:D

[EternalSpring]

Refer to my previous comment. Getting involved in a "from no contact to contact (engagement)" coversation is pointless. There are too many factors to warrant it.

In Wing Chun people like to talk about going in with a pak sau, chain punch or angling in etc etc etc. It's stupid and for Kung Fu movie freaks!

Go out and have a fight first and then tell everybody how you fared if that floats your boat but do not speculate!

I agree that talking theory without doing anything is lame. But to be honest, the conversation on how to engage/break the distance only becomes pointless when people address the question from bizarre perspectives.

To illustrate this further, just look at this scenario where a common question is answered in a similar bizarre way as opposed to a normal way.

Question: What are you going to eat for lunch today?

Normal answer: I think I'll go to subway and get a sandwich

Bizarre answer: Lunch? You want me to tell you what I'm going to eat for lunch? How should I know? I cant read the future. I might get hit by a car or stray bullet as soon as I step outside and thus never get to eating lunch. The place I go to eat at may be out of whatever I'm craving now so I may not be able to get what I want even if I get there. How can I possibly tell you what I'm going to eat for lunch!?!


I think it's really just a matter of common sense that when a person asks how you'd engage in a fight, the setting is two people who are at a distance who are in a fight but contact hasn't been made yet. It's just silly to assume that such questions are asking what you would do if you were jumped by a crew of marksmen while eating lunch in a dark alleyway after a tiring training session, or some other worst case scenario.

[Wayfaring]

Hmmm engagement. And "within the WCK system" too.

Principles are very general to match the very general "engagement" term. Keep your own balance and structure, economize stance to minimize distance of limbs to fighting stance, emotional color wheel orange with readiness for action and awareness of distance.

With the actual first motion to physical contact you have to decide whether you are going to attack offensively and bring the fight to them or be a counterpuncher. Most TMA's work counterpunching, hence the ad nausea of video related to the multiple step response to the one step punch attack demoed to death by EVERY TMA on the planet, including WCK. From what I see in this arena the mental fortitude of the decision can mean the difference between winning and losing (case in point JDS vs. Cain 1 vs. last Saturday). Cain closed the gap quickly and left JDS no room to box - he filled the space aggressively and took the fight to JDS. For that night it was the better strategy - the combo threats of strikes and takedowns kept JDS tentative in response - and he said he had the wrong strategy after. Just using a real world example. He owned centerline all fight, but did it from an offensive mindset.

I honestly don't know the mindset of most WCK practitioners, whether they are 100% in the counterpuncher mentality or not. It seems most are. If you are, it's workable and you want to cheat the footwork and facing just a tad to allow your response to own the centerline and space so you can key off the simultaneous O/D we were talking about and get off your response sooner rather than having to play catch up. Chi sau training seems to lead to looking for the half beat on the response to beat your opponent with most I've seen.

If you are going offense, you have to commit 100%. Seems cliché, but I have seen so many things violate that lately. If you're tentative, you're gone. IMO you also need to spend attention to masking your movement of entry. (Boxing example - the 1, pause, 1-2 - the foot slide to cover distance on the pause is masked by the contact of the first jab on the shell or bridge - after the second jab you are closer to your opponent but they don't know it if u do it right). When I was doing point fighting years back there were a couple guys I knew that spent at least an hour a day in the mirror perfecting their jumping back fist. Stupid, but they got a lot of people with stealth masking their initiation of the movement. Training for a ruleset specifically. They also trained common reactions to that to chain their offense to lead to a finish.

As far as technique, well the context is so general not much for me to say there. Do you like the Queen's Gambit or the Reti Opening better when you play chess? What does your opponent give you?

[LFJ]

Are we talking real fights or sport fights? Real fights are not like sparring or cage fighting with strategies per round.

You don't need a way to engage or close the gap in a real fight. The opponent does it for you they the come up on you.

Don't know what happened to Kevin's post, but as he put it: "First come, first served".

[GlennR]

Are we talking real fights or sport fights? Real fights are not like sparring or cage fighting with strategies per round.

You don't need a way to engage or close the gap in a real fight. The opponent does it for you they the come up on you.

Don't know what happened to Kevin's post, but as he put it: "First come, first served".

Sure, but i think he was saying whats your plan at that initial contact, regardless of who creates it

[LFJ]

What to do upon initial contact is a different question with indeed too many variables. Adhering to the basic principles of WCK should always be the answer.

How to go "from no contact to contact with an attacking opponent" as he defined "engage" is a simple question. The simple answer is in a real fight you don't need a concept/principle/theory for closing the gap and engaging with an attacker. That's decided by the opponent when they come up on you.

To always respond with the familiar WCK principles is again the answer. Looking for a more detailed hypothetical response sounds like a Yoshi question.

[anerlich]

You don't need a way to engage or close the gap in a real fight. The opponent does it for you they the come up on you.

If I know it's coming and unavoidable, I'm not going to leave how initial contact occurs up to him if I can avoid it. It's reasonable to set yourself up in an advantageous position if you get the chance. You can do otherwise if you want, I guess.

Geoff Thompson et al have written lots on pre-fight strategies. fail to plan, you plan to fail.


To always respond with the familiar WCK principles is again the answer.

That's hardly an answer. It begs the "like how?" question. Do you shout "Fist comes from the heart!" in their face?

[LFJ]

Don't be retarded. It's hardly an answer if I'm talking to Yoshi...

[Lee Chiang Po]

During a slight disturbance one night I was called upon to try to resolve a fight. The fight turns out to be a fellow about 6 feet tall and 240 or 250 pounds beating the crap out of a little guy. When I intervened, he turned to me and put both hands on my chest and shoved me very hard. Had I not grabbed his wrists I would have flown through a wall no doubt. As I reached the end of his extended arms I jerked him real hard. He then placed a foot between us and pulled back very hard. As I felt myself moving forward I rapidly walked forward and shoved him completely off balance and backwards for a few steps. He backed into a booth and sort or fell backward over it. I brought a knee up between his legs and then shoved his right arm across his body. He attemped to strike me or at least block me from hitting him with his left arm, but it was short of any range and lacked any power at all. I grabbed his left wrist and jerked his arm across his body, then I raised his right arm over his left arm and scissored it, placing all my weight on his right hand. He sort of yelled in pain because this is very painful. In the mean time I slapped him full in the face, using my right palm against his nose, then I went down and slapped very hard, downward into his solar plexus and then just above his pelvic bridge. Those actions will make you feel as though everything inside you is coming out. I immediately backed off a few feet and watched him as he collapsed into the floor. When a man loses his bodily functions in public he is terrible humilited.
None of this is or was practiced, but were simply presented to me by the big guy. This is the entire concept we speak of. Allowing a man to back off and square off at you is asking for trouble. Never stand toe to toe and trade punches with a man. It is just too **** dangerous and he has an equal chance of punching your clock for you. Rush him and make him defend himself, even is if it a fake attack or faint on your part just to get him to give up some of his own advantage. It is diffiult to fight against another chunner because he knows what you are always up to and he attempts to do the same things to you. I have never met another wing chun fighter other than people I was actively training with, and most men, once you make your move are at a disadvantage if you can gain control of his arms. It only takes seconds to dispatch him if you know your stuff. Some call it chasing hands, but it is extremely effective against the un initiated.

[Judokarl]

When someone engages on me it depends on if I am working or if it is a personal level. If its a professional situation such as when I am doing volunteer security for my Colleges sporting events or working traffic at graduation I would handle the situation as follows:
First would be an immediate size up of the situation, How many hostiles? I assume one for the scenario so I should "Stop, Sir please Stop!" and the like. As the man advances I try my best to block any incoming strikes while I move into a clincinc and try to take him down with either Osoto gari or O goshi. If its gets realy bad I might just go for a power double or single and just wrestle him to the ground. Once I have him on the ground I will just choke him out or just keep him pinned until back up arrives or I feel that I am in a bad position and need to get up if I feel like his back up arrived before mine. Afterwards I file a report.

If its a personal situation same thing but I would be throwing punches in addition to the blocks while closing in to the grappling range. Do the throw get them to the ground but I wouldn't follow them down to the ground. Just give them one good kick and then bolt and call the police.

Both of these scenarios are of course assuming my nike fu is not an option as I always prefer to run or avoid a fight than risk getting stabbed,shote, or curb stomped.

[anerlich]

Don't be retarded

Good to see you taking the high road.

[jesper]

hit him hard. if he doesnt go down hit him with a chair.

seriously, you cant answer a generic question about what you want to do. to many variables

[chaotic2k]

I engage my wing chun (ving tsun, wing tsun, wing tchun et...) with a chi sau ring....

[WC1277]

During a slight disturbance one night I was called upon to try to resolve a fight. The fight turns out to be a fellow about 6 feet tall and 240 or 250 pounds beating the crap out of a little guy. When I intervened, he turned to me and put both hands on my chest and shoved me very hard. Had I not grabbed his wrists I would have flown through a wall no doubt. As I reached the end of his extended arms I jerked him real hard. He then placed a foot between us and pulled back very hard. As I felt myself moving forward I rapidly walked forward and shoved him completely off balance and backwards for a few steps. He backed into a booth and sort or fell backward over it. I brought a knee up between his legs and then shoved his right arm across his body. He attemped to strike me or at least block me from hitting him with his left arm, but it was short of any range and lacked any power at all. I grabbed his left wrist and jerked his arm across his body, then I raised his right arm over his left arm and scissored it, placing all my weight on his right hand. He sort of yelled in pain because this is very painful. In the mean time I slapped him full in the face, using my right palm against his nose, then I went down and slapped very hard, downward into his solar plexus and then just above his pelvic bridge. Those actions will make you feel as though everything inside you is coming out. I immediately backed off a few feet and watched him as he collapsed into the floor. When a man loses his bodily functions in public he is terrible humilited.
None of this is or was practiced, but were simply presented to me by the big guy. This is the entire concept we speak of. Allowing a man to back off and square off at you is asking for trouble. Never stand toe to toe and trade punches with a man. It is just too **** dangerous and he has an equal chance of punching your clock for you. Rush him and make him defend himself, even is if it a fake attack or faint on your part just to get him to give up some of his own advantage. It is diffiult to fight against another chunner because he knows what you are always up to and he attempts to do the same things to you. I have never met another wing chun fighter other than people I was actively training with, and most men, once you make your move are at a disadvantage if you can gain control of his arms. It only takes seconds to dispatch him if you know your stuff. Some call it chasing hands, but it is extremely effective against the un initiated.

I like this story as a good general example of the point of engagement. Control your center of gravity while making them loose theirs.

[Yoshiyahu]

Upon Intial contact...My goal is to hit while controlling his center LINE...I want to overflow him while taking his balance and damaging his structure...that is key!