having problems sticking to the opponent

[YouKnowWho]

We all know that Taiji guys, WC guys, SC guys, Judo guys, wrestlers all like to play the "sticking" game. When your right forearm touch your opponent's right forearm arm (sticking), you can spin your right arm "counter-clockwise" (from your view) and haymaker (or hook) punch to your opponent's head. Do you think the best "sticking" master on this planet (such as CXW) can still remain "sticking" in this situation?

A discusion in another forum:

A: When doing pushing hands, if you become easily dsconnected from your opponent’s arm, ...
B: If you're having problems sticking to the opponent then you need more push hands or better quality instruction if that's what you're trying to achieve.

I don't believe more "sticking" training or "better quality instruction" can solve the problem as I have just described but that's just my personal opinion.

When you try to

- prove a theory, you have to prove it works for n = 1, and if if work for n, it should also work for n + 1.
- disprove a theory, all you need is to find a counter example.

Do you think this is a valid "counter example" to disprove that "sticking is always possible if you have quality instruction"? What's your thought on this?

[JamesC]

What happens when the opponent simply disengages? Or rushes?

It's great in theory, but "sticking" is just ONE aspect of taiji. It has it's purpose, but it should only be momentary to accomplish an unbalance for a throw or attack.

[Robinhood]

We all know that Taiji guys, WC guys, SC guys, Judo guys, wrestlers all like to play the "sticking" game. When your right forearm touch your opponent's right forearm arm (sticking), you can spin your right arm "counter-clockwise" (from your view) and haymaker (or hook) punch to your opponent's head. Do you think the best "sticking" master on this planet (such as CXW) can still remain "sticking" in this situation?

A discusion in another forum:

A: When doing pushing hands, if you become easily dsconnected from your opponent’s arm, ...
B: If you're having problems sticking to the opponent then you need more push hands or better quality instruction if that's what you're trying to achieve.

I don't believe more "sticking" training or "better quality instruction" can solve the problem as I have just described but that's just my personal opinion.

When you try to

- prove a theory, you have to prove it works for n = 1, and if if work for n, it should also work for n + 1.
- disprove a theory, all you need is to find a counter example.

Do you think this is a valid "counter example" to disprove that "sticking is always possible if you have quality instruction"? What's your thought on this?

Don't try to take everything so literally or as black and white, and you will have a easier time trying to figure things out., nothing is absolute, it is constant changing variables that make everything up.

[Subitai]

Stick is not the goal...it is only to KNOW your opponent. Once this is achieved, you have more options and you can know your opponents weakness.

(*) But it should not be for the sake of just to REMAIN sticky on him. That is a training method not fighting...kinda like chasing hands when you should just attack.

Props to JamesC he was already "ON IT". :)

In your example John when the guy trys to Counter Rotate and leaves his center you just fire straight in.

What's flawed about the example is you only use ONE hand or arm... i.e. Right touching Right.

It's when the left hand comes into play that things get interesting.


Sticking from a Taiji training point of view is like the saying "Bu diu bu ding" Roughly translated as do not go head on and do not become lost with your partner.

[YouKnowWho]

Stick is not the goal...it is only to KNOW your opponent.
Agree with you there. We should train sticking, break, attack instead of sticking from the beginning all the way to the end. In other words, we should always assume that sticking can only last for very short period of time (such as 1/10 second) and never expect it can last longer than that.

If you try to use your hand to push your opponent's guard down so you can punch his face, you can

1. grab on his arm and pull it down. The problem is he can sense your intention. The contact is too long.
2. press his arm down. The problem is he can borrow your force and haymaker punch at your head.

If you use the 2nd approach, you will need to handle your opponent's haymaker punch right after your arm pressing, you arm pressing should be changed into either comb hair or arm wrapping.

If your combat skill depending on short sticking (such as 1/10 second), you will need to develop your skill in much fast speed.

[Yum Cha]

Pak Mei is sticky too. Brings to mind the SPM(?) saying, "If there is no bridge, build one, if there is, destroy it. Sticky does't have to mean holding on either, it can just be jamming or binding. i.e. stick to the blocking arm when you hit, you don't have to hold it, just stop it coming up to block your strike.

[-N-]

If your combat skill depending on short sticking (such as 1/10 second), you will need to develop your skill in much fast speed.

Nothing wrong with that, said the Mantis guy :)

Not everything is sticking. Use it where needed as part of your transition/control to deliver the attack.

[EarthDragon]

lets not forget part of sticking is linked to reading the "Y I" or intent of our opponent to give us that split second and extra edge. This I feel is something not trained enough when leanring to stick i see it overlooked all the time. But to answer, quality of instruction has little importance compared to practice and experience.

[Syn7]

lets not forget part of sticking is linked to reading the "Y I" or intent of our opponent to give us that split second and extra edge. This I feel is something not trained enough when leanring to stick i see it overlooked all the time. But to answer, quality of instruction has little importance compared to practice and experience.

Yeah, there is that old saying that he who moves first loses. Many take that as a statement of a reaction to the actual offensive movement rather than the cues leading up to that movement. Bottom line is, if two people engage at the same time, the faster one will connect first. While being fast is important, being intuitive and having the ability to assess these cues are more valuable. A lot of the time simple speed advantages aren't enough unless you are WAY faster. How many times do you see a boxer take one to give one. Doesn't really matter who landed first, both will land. Afer that it comes down to the power and placement of the hit. If you wanna take the power out of his strike, you have to connect that much sooner. But in that certain range, speed isn't really the deciding factor.

[bawang]

in Wombat Combat we add super glue to our jow. over time our hands attain atural stickiness.

[Syn7]

Gorilla glue!!!

[EarthDragon]

Syn7
We agree 100% if u meant reacting to their reaction. Speed is not as valuable as you are always moving slightly behind their move. And as you said we must be way faster.

However if one trains yi properly and gets good at it you can read thier thought before the thought is translated into movement and stay one step ahead. This is how as masters age they are still able to move and counter though slower physically is slightly ahead.

This is something that is not well known and defiantly not trained enough. When I do tuisao with other people I allow them to be offensive and lead but it's I am moving in the same direction they planned on moving but ahead of them. And I always get wow you I can't find your link or compromise areas. I say it's because I close them before you can find or create one..... Allot seem to not understand.

[Yum Cha]

in Wombat Combat we add super glue to our jow. over time our hands attain atural stickiness.

...hmmm, we do the same in Roo Fu.

[Yum Cha]

Yeah, there is that old saying that he who moves first loses. Many take that as a statement of a reaction to the actual offensive movement rather than the cues leading up to that movement. Bottom line is, if two people engage at the same time, the faster one will connect first. While being fast is important, being intuitive and having the ability to assess these cues are more valuable. A lot of the time simple speed advantages aren't enough unless you are WAY faster. How many times do you see a boxer take one to give one. Doesn't really matter who landed first, both will land. Afer that it comes down to the power and placement of the hit. If you wanna take the power out of his strike, you have to connect that much sooner. But in that certain range, speed isn't really the deciding factor.

Oh boy, heaps I disagree with there Syn...and I'll be honest, its more perspective and strategy than a right or wrong thing. Bear with me...
Speed is a combination of 'reaction time' as well as positioning. You may be slower with reaction time, but pre-emptive positioning makes you appear faster because your strikes are travelling a shorter distance.
Moves first loses? When is the first move? Your opponent blindsiding you and knocking you off balance, or you getting up off the floor as the blows and kicks come raining down? Ok, say you're lucky enough to get a chance to square off, what is the first move, first punch, or that step you take laterally to get the guy to switch feet? Or the way you hold up your guard, emphasising aggression of hiding it? IF you have the option, my own personal method, you should already be leading the opponent's movement, perception and targeting before you ever get close enough to engage, and that gets you your good bridge. And if you're up against a proper high level bridge fighter, once he has the bridge, you're in a world of hurt.
So, to my mind at least, engagement is a process, sensitivity starts before you touch hands, and continually feeds back.

[pazman]

Sticking skills can be taught through instruction but unless the student has progressed in training enough to see the usefulness, the point might be lost. Through sparring, students find the techniques that they take well to, and develop their "style". If they never encounter a situation where "sticking" is useful, any sort of quality instruction is kind of moot.

When I was younger, all of my sparring partners were all bigger, stronger, and more experienced. I had to develop ways to make up for it just to make it through the sparring sessions. "Sticking" can be a good way to frustrate your opponent. Only after I developed a sense of why that kind of skill might be useful did any "sticking" exercise have any sort of usefulness.

[bawang]

When I was younger, all of my sparring partners were all bigger, stronger, and more experienced. I had to develop ways to make up for it just to make it through the sparring sessions. "Sticking" can be a good way to frustrate your opponent. Only after I developed a sense of why that kind of skill might be useful did any "sticking" exercise have any sort of usefulness.

or you could have put in bitter training and became bigger and stronger.


in chinese martial arts, when talking about weak vs strong, it is talking about preborn abilities: its when both people have trained to the fullest of their ability and effort, and there is still a big gap in strength. then you use "smart techniques". do not fear or avoid strength. that is the path of the wing chun dogs, and it leads to ruin.

[pazman]

or you could have put in bitter training and became bigger and stronger.


in chinese martial arts, when talking about weak vs strong, it is talking about preborn abilities: its when both people have trained to the fullest of their ability and effort, and there is still a big gap in strength. then you use "smart techniques". do not fear or avoid strength. that is the path of the wing chun dogs, and it leads to ruin.

You are completely correct. I was a skinny teenager then and I had to put in a lot of time in the weight room. But even when the physical attributes came, the lessons learned during the times of weakness weren't lost.

Many CMA schools might present some exercises which develop "sticking skill" or other useful skills, but how can they be useful to students if they don't understand the context?

[Syn7]

Oh boy, heaps I disagree with there Syn...and I'll be honest, its more perspective and strategy than a right or wrong thing. Bear with me...
Speed is a combination of 'reaction time' as well as positioning. You may be slower with reaction time, but pre-emptive positioning makes you appear faster because your strikes are travelling a shorter distance.
Moves first loses? When is the first move? Your opponent blindsiding you and knocking you off balance, or you getting up off the floor as the blows and kicks come raining down? Ok, say you're lucky enough to get a chance to square off, what is the first move, first punch, or that step you take laterally to get the guy to switch feet? Or the way you hold up your guard, emphasising aggression of hiding it? IF you have the option, my own personal method, you should already be leading the opponent's movement, perception and targeting before you ever get close enough to engage, and that gets you your good bridge. And if you're up against a proper high level bridge fighter, once he has the bridge, you're in a world of hurt.
So, to my mind at least, engagement is a process, sensitivity starts before you touch hands, and continually feeds back.


I have no issue with any of that. I guess I just didn't explain myself very well before. It's late and I got stuff to do, but I'll think on it and mos def come back and we can hit this up.

And honest is always good. I'm not really into all that pc crap. I don't mind being wrong. Learning is a good thing.




EarthDragon, I wouldn't know about being a master. Maybe some day. :) I just try stuff and when I find stuff that works for me I use it, when it doesn't I either rework it, with my teacher or another student, to work for me or I just move on. So much to learn, so little time. So I try to go the route that feels most natural as opposed to drilling something that continues to feel awkward. If I was a fulltime fighter or teacher, I'm sure my approach would be different. But as it stands, I just do it for me. SO I dunno if I will ever be able to say I'm a "master". Would be nice tho. :)

[Yum Cha]

I have no issue with any of that. I guess I just didn't explain myself very well before. It's late and I got stuff to do, but I'll think on it and mos def come back and we can hit this up.

And honest is always good. I'm not really into all that pc crap. I don't mind being wrong. Learning is a good thing.

Yep, I know that much about you, being easy going, and I'll say again, not wrong or right, just perspective, strategy. Something to think about.

[EarthDragon]

Syn7

EarthDragon, I just try stuff and when I find stuff that works for me I use it, when it doesn't I either rework it, So I try to go the route that feels most natural as opposed to drilling something that continues to feel awkward. But as it stands, I just do it for me. SO I dunno if I will ever be able to say I'm a "master". Would be nice tho.

This is also a good way to train for some people. I know many that train what they need and don't spend a lot of time on the stuff that they may not use or needs "reworked" if looking for protecting oneself from a fight/self defense or to be a fighter.

PS the whole "Master" thing has been exaggerated to now a days mean almost nothing. I personally don't feel anyone can claim to hold this title but that just me.... maybe in ancient times when they trained for 4-6 hours a day, but with the distraction of modern society, you cannot learn enough or perfect enough to master a system. My students find it hard to get to the school 3 days a week for our 90 minute class. LOL
Now that doesn't mean you cannot master any techniques. I feel I have mastered a few, but to be considered a master??????very very few get to this level.

[Robinhood]

Sticking is just a tool to learn sensitivity !, if used properly !, but like using most tools, if used wrong results will vary.

[EarthDragon]

robinhood, I feel is has more than just a sensitivity tool. It carries over to many skills. while I totaly agree with , there are some only use it as sensitivity but thats just the tip of the iceburg

[YouKnowWho]

Here is a simple test. When you

- groin kick at your opponent and your opponent drops his arm or raises his knee to block your kick, do you need to wait for your leg to contact your opponent's arm or leg,
- punch at your opponent's face and your opponent uses his arm to block your punch, do you need to wait for your arm to contact your opponent's arm,

in order to know his intention?

It seems to me that you should have that information before the contact. To "read" your opponent's intention can be much faster than to "feel" your opponent's intention.

Old Chinese saying said, "to see can be misleading, only to feel is real." I used to believe in this. But in reality, it's very difficult to fake your intention if you are under a lot of pressure such as a full power kick at your groin, or a full power punch coming to your face.

[bawang]

Sticking is just a tool to learn sensitivity !, if used properly !, but like using most tools, if used wrong results will vary.

you sticky like my feces to my buttcrack.

[EarthDragon]

- groin kick at your opponent and your opponent drops his arm or raises his knee to block your kick, do you need to wait for your leg to contact your opponent's arm or leg,
- punch at your opponent's face and your opponent uses his arm to block your punch, do you need to wait for your arm to contact your opponent's arm,

in order to know his intention?

I would say opponents intention is more so when hes attacking, if hes on the defense his intention is based upon his reaction this is different.


It seems to me that you should have that information before the contact. To "read" your opponent's intention can be much faster than to "feel" your opponent's intention.

yes this can be done with faking that way you know which way his mind is working and which way his body was going to move.


Old Chinese saying said, "to see can be misleading, only to feel is real." I used to believe in this. But in reality, it's very difficult to fake your intention if you are under a lot of pressure such as a full power kick at your groin, or a full power punch coming to your face.

agreed. this is like old time full contact fighting tricks. when you first start in the circut you cant help but telegraph through your eyes,however so does your opponent. Then when you get better and more exp. you use these eyes fakes to distract your opponents intention in 1 direction while you attack from another