Should grappler run?

[YouKnowWho]

Running will make your feet to float. It's much easier to take down a runner than to take down a non-runner. It will reduce your ability to resist any throw.

In the ancient time, the "low stand wide step fast walking - upper leg to be parallel to the ground" was used to replace the running training.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3669/lowwalk.jpg

Today, people may have ignored this issue.

What's your thought?

[MasterKiller]

Running long distances doesn't do much for martial arts except teach you to work through pain. Most "sport" guys do interval training to supplement their cardio. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is a better workout than grappling, anyway. The only way to get in grappling shape is to do it a lot.

[YouKnowWho]

Nothing, and I mean nothing, is a better workout than grappling, anyway. The only way to get in grappling shape is to do it a lot.

It will be fun to be able to spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily. Sometime partners are just hard to find. :(

[MasterKiller]

It will be fun to be able to spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily. Sometime partners are just hard to find. :(

15 rounds is nuts. We do five 5-minute rounds with 1 min breaks, and even then people throw up sometimes.

[mawali]

Running will make your feet to float. It's much easier to take down a runner than to take down a non-runner. It will reduce your ability to resist any throw.

In the ancient time, the "low stand wide step fast walking - upper leg to be parallel to the ground" was used to replace the running training.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3669/lowwalk.jpg

Today, people may have ignored this issue.

What's your thought?

Running is good and I do not mean marathon running!
It help cardiovascular conditioning and the long slow distance (25-30) minites periodic 2-4x/week should complement the other parts of conditioning i.e. workout, flexibility, stretching, etc.

[YouKnowWho]

15 rounds is nuts.

You use force in your first 10 rounds. In your last 5 rounds you truly understand how to use Sung, yield, sticky, borrow force, ...

This is why a wrestler doesn't talk about brute force, borrow force. When you are truly tired, you have no brute force to use but try to borrow your opponent's force.

[YouKnowWho]

Here we can see a 400 lb Sumo wrestler ran Marathon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm07iPOl4ko

This one is funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7XW9CUhkQs

[Frost]

yes they should, and they continue to do so and will do as long as its useful for them and gets results, running helps work the energy systems needed for wrestling in an indirect manner and can also help recovery, it all depends on duration and intensity as to what the effect with be

[bawang]

in northern kung fu jogging and sprinting were important training for battlefield fighting. jogging was important for fast moving army, sprinting is important for developing a good charge. northern martial arts emphasize the charge, the first strike, and speed.

southern kung fu emphasizes running less because they were mainly navy and heavy infantry. southern heavy infantry walks slowly towards the enemy, and emphasizes prolonged melee combat.

[JamesC]

I never found ANY carry over in grappling from all my running. It is just a completely different type of exercise. More full body.

It gets easier once you learn to relax and flow, but once you get those guys that use all muscle you are gassed again just from trying to get over powered

[Syn7]

I think sprints are more applicable to wrestling than LD running. There are better ways to get aerobic exercise. I doubt LD running would hurt you that much if you also practice other things to keep your base strong.

[xinyidizi]

Running will make your feet to float. It's much easier to take down a runner than to take down a non-runner. It will reduce your ability to resist any throw.

In the ancient time, the "low stand wide step fast walking - upper leg to be parallel to the ground" was used to replace the running training.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3669/lowwalk.jpg

Today, people may have ignored this issue.

What's your thought?

We have a limited time and energy to practice MA. Anything that fails to keep the fighting structure is a waste of time and can be replaced by something more beneficial.

Usually I practice my lines until I can't step fast enough and fajin properly. If have more energy I do more lines why would I want to waste my energy on running?

[Kellen Bassette]

We have a limited time and energy to practice MA. Anything that fails to keep the fighting structure is a waste of time and can be replaced by something more beneficial.

Usually I practice my lines until I can't step fast enough and fajin properly. If have more energy I do more lines why would I want to waste my energy on running?

I guess that depends, are you only a grappler, or are you a grappler and a striker? Running is very beneficial to the striking arts.

[xinyidizi]

I guess that depends, are you only a grappler, or are you a grappler and a striker? Running is very beneficial to the striking arts.

Both. My main style is Xinyi which is all about very fast steps that even may look like running but unlike normal running they never lose the proper structure and root.

[Kellen Bassette]

Both. My main style is Xinyi which is all about very fast steps that even may look like running but unlike normal running they never lose the proper structure and root.

The main benefits of running are endurance through training cardio and building leg strength. I suppose it could help a little with agility..but there are much better drills for that.

I would think the important thing is that you are getting a good cardio workout and building a strong foundation, (legs)....running is a popular way to go about it, but there are hundreds of other exercises that are means to the same ends.

[Drake]

EVERYBODY should have running in their training plans.

[wenshu]

Waaaaaaaaaaahhhhh I don't like being vaguely uncomfortable for 2 hours a week so I'll make up excuses as to why my body doesn't need it.

Road work is uncomfortable mainly because it is boring as hell but just because you don't like doing something doesn't change the science behind why you need it. Don't be a *****.

Good explanation using primary sources of the different energy systems of the human body. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/energy.htm

It is amazing to me that people still cling to this inflexible either/or zero sum game bull****. Steady state cardio is supplemental, all the arguments against imply that they are counter to some imaginary view that it is supposed to be the exclusive method of training.

If you're already reasonably conditioned it's really not that hard to supplement with 1 1/2 hour/week with low intensity steady state cardio. Don't be a *****. You'll recover faster between periods of explosiveness and be able to utilize that explosiveness more often and for longer.

[YouKnowWho]

Most of the time, the modern guys will say that the traditional guys are not willing to try the modern method. In my experience, sometime the modern guys are also not will to try the traditional method either.

Why can't we replace running by "low stance walking"? The "low stance walking" exist in many TCMA systems such as the longfist, SC, Bagua, ... all are very similar.

In the following clip, you can see it at 0.35 - 0.39 and 0.50 - 0.54.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2jlWopiO3o

and 0.28 - 0.30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ4d7hnvDpY

You don't have to walk left, right, left right, ... You also don't have to walk in straight line either. You can change you foot patern and zikzak like the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

and 1.06 - 1.14.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1bQ6kvMMAY

I'm all for modern methods such as great cardio, weight training, sparring/wrestling, partner drills, .... There is no argument there. Why can't we turn our boring running into:

- cardio,
- strong leg,
- fast and smooth footwork (that we can use in combat),
- fun,

instead of just cardio? Why can't we try to kill many birds with 1 stone (since our training time is limited)? We may step away from the original "floating legs - rooting" issue but all MA training issues are interest for discussion.

[Drake]

You can't replicate the benefits of running like that.

Most of the folks who hate running hate it because they are too fat, or they're so out of shape that they can't run a single mile.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, the low stance walking is much harder than running. It's not easy to be able to keep your upper legs to be parallel to the ground for 3 miles.

[Drake]

IMO, the low stance walking is much harder than running. It's not easy to be able to keep your upper legs to be parallel to the ground for 3 miles.

And it's not the same thing. It may not be "easy" to hold a say ping ma for 3 mins, but I PROMISE you, a marathon is exponentially more difficult, and between that and interval training, it provides a much larger array of health benefits, VO2 max, and endurance increases. Say ping ma teaches you to hold a say ping ma. Running is pretty much holistic training.

[YouKnowWho]

a marathon is exponentially more difficult,

Agree with you on this. When I trained my 1st marathon, one day I stood in front of mirror, I found that my body shrinked and I became a smaller size. It requires a lot of training time to prepare for a marathon. Marathon is serious stuff. I still remember that I had to put grease between my inner upper legs.

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3830/marathoni.jpg

[Drake]

Agree with you on this. When I trained my 1st marathon, one day I stood in front of mirror, I found that my body shrinked and I became a smaller size. It requires a lot of training time to prepare for a marathon. Marathon is serious stuff. I still remember that I had to put grease between my inner upper legs.

I just remember going on an eating rampage afterwards...

[YouKnowWho]

I just remember going on an eating rampage afterwards...

I slept that whole afternoon. When I waked up about 5 pm, I did my running again. During my running, I met a guy who was in the same marathon, he said, "You should take at least one day off." When I'm into something, I just can't make myself to stop. It was good to be young.

[-N-]

IMO, the low stance walking is much harder than running. It's not easy to be able to keep your upper legs to be parallel to the ground for 3 miles.

One of my students ran marathons and half marathons. His hamstrings were strong, but also tight. His quads were weak, and his stances and stepping were too tall, unstable, and couldn't deliver power or speed.

[MightyB]

jogging or fast walking is a good healthy habit... unless you have bad knees. Then you should swim. I also like biking or cross country skiing.

[YouKnowWho]

his stances and stepping were too tall, unstable, ...

That's my concern too. Of course you will have "floating leg" feeling right after running. Not sure that's short term issue or long term issue?

Here is my stupid question. Is "sinking (rooting)" only concerned by TCMA guys? Do Judo guys or wrestlers care much about "sinking (rooting)" at all? The reason that I ask this question because some Judo instructors and wrestling coaches do suggest running to their students. Not sure if Sumo wrestlers run though.

[MightyB]

That's my concern too. Of course you will have "floating leg" feeling right after running. Not sure that's short term issue or long term issue?

Here is my stupid question. Is "sinking (rooting)" only concerned by TCMA guys? Do Judo guys or wrestlers care much about "sinking (rooting)"?

when we warm up, we usually do around 5 minutes of Judo Jogging. Basically you run with bent knees and try to glide your feet close to the mat without raising them too high or "bouncing" your head and body. It's essentially the same as the walking like an ape that you do in mantis. We also do the outside and inside slide step (you face outside or inside and slide to the right or left) the same way by keeping the feet close to the ground and no bouncing on the steps.

But all serious judo guys will do road work. More LD in the off season, and sprinting more in the weeks leading up to competition season. In season you try to maintain shape with lots of randori and medium distance runs on the off days.

[MightyB]

the defensive stance is a deep rooted stance. You don't hold it like tcma. You develop a good root and sensitivity by doing more randori.

[YouKnowWho]

So serious Judo guys would do both running and low stance walking. I think if you do both, you won't have the "floating feet" issue. Also some people run up and down. Some people just run along the ground. The up and down running method may give you more "floating leg" problem.

[MightyB]

So serious Judo guys would do both running and low stance walking.

Yes, but as in all things, randori is different. You don't overthink your footwork like you do in TCMA. Just keep low, be decisive, and be fast. Play your game. Float like a butterfly sting like a be. Grip and go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ-suyYUY3k

[Drake]

One of my students ran marathons and half marathons. His hamstrings were strong, but also tight. His quads were weak, and his stances and stepping were too tall, unstable, and couldn't deliver power or speed.

Sounds like he was missing quite a few fundamental requirements of running. Stretching, intervals, and lunges...

[-N-]

Sounds like he was missing quite a few fundamental requirements of running. Stretching, intervals, and lunges...

Yep. He needed to stretch more.

He was pretty quick in the marathon. Can't remember his times.

Not much hill work around here.

[Kellen Bassette]

Waaaaaaaaaaahhhhh I don't like being vaguely uncomfortable for 2 hours a week so I'll make up excuses as to why my body doesn't need it.


You just described 90% of martial artists. :D

[Kellen Bassette]

Most of the time, the modern guys will say that the traditional guys are not willing to try the modern method. In my experience, sometime the modern guys are also not will to try the traditional method either.


Since when is running not traditional??? :confused:

[YouKnowWho]

Since when is running not traditional??? :confused:
I don't know TCMA guys ran in the ancient time or not. I only know my teacher didn't treat running as part of his daily training. I'm not talking about running. I'm talking about "low stance walking". It seems to me that most modern guys just don't like the traditional "low stance walking" for some unknown reason. :confused:

[bawang]

I don't know TCMA guys ran in the ancient time or not. I only know my teacher didn't treat running as part of his daily training. I'm not talking about running. I'm talking about "low stance walking". It seems to me that most modern guys just don't like the traditional "low stance walking" for some unknown reason. :confused:

ancient times tcma runs with weight vest and shin weights. low stance walking is good exercise for children.

[MightyB]

It seems to me that most modern guys just don't like the traditional "low stance walking" for some unknown reason. :confused:

I wouldn't necessarily say that because grapplers (Judo and Wrestling) approach low. They just don't over think it because it's something you do. The main difference would be in weight distribution because you don't heel to toe walk in Judo, you're usually low but light on your feet and you tend to stay more on the balls of your feet. In most of your hip throws you need to have your belt lower than their belt.