A question about bagua

[jimbob]

Please enlighten a curious man :)

What is the purpose of the muds stepping/sole stepping we see in many of the bagua forms?

I ask because from what I can see (as someone with no experience in bagua), it seems to be a very important, highly emphasised aspect of the art, yet when I see people demo bagua applications - either straight line applications or free form stuff, I don't see the mud stepping anymore.

I am genuinely curious about this and would love to know some more. Sadly, I am not anywhere near anyone who knows any bagua at all so I have no first hand people to ask.

Thanks in advance

[Dale Dugas]

Mudstepping is not done by all systems in the same manner

Mudstepping is an attack to the tib fib area in its most common application.

I learned heel to toe stepping or what is called Lion Stepping in other systems as the main method of stepping.

[mawali]

Tang Ni Bu 趟泥步 (mud walking step) seems to be a leftover training method incorporated into 'modern" baquazhang. Perhaps intitial training of baquaquan was on unstable ground and the so named step was called to provides some level of 'balance' and stability to circle walking.

[jimbob]

Thanks Dale, thanks Mawali

It seems to be such a heavily emphasised part of the style but I'd not really heard or read the reasons behind it.

I appreciate the replies.

[Cory Nyenhuis]

In the Cheng style systems I have done it is a method to close the gap to get in for throwing techniques. Similar to the "shot" in wrestling.

[Tame The Tiger]

In Chow Gar Tong Long we also land with the front of the foot rather than the heel.

Our theory is that it helps to prevent slippage on a bad surface. The outer edge of the front of the foot "digs in", almost like a blade. If you land with the heel and it slips, there's nothing to stop you continuing forward.

Having said that, my observation is that the majority of styles (including many branches of Chow Gar) will land with the heel.

[YouKnowWho]

To land on you heel is dangerous to be sweeped or scooped. In the dark night, if your opponent drops spikes nails on the ground, only the mud step is safe.

[jimbob]

In Chow Gar Tong Long we also land with the front of the foot rather than the heel.

Our theory is that it helps to prevent slippage on a bad surface. The outer edge of the front of the foot "digs in", almost like a blade. If you land with the heel and it slips, there's nothing to stop you continuing forward.

Having said that, my observation is that the majority of styles (including many branches of Chow Gar) will land with the heel.

I trained Chow Gar for quite some years but the explanations were always clear. I've never really heard a reason for the stepping in bagua, other than "it's one of the most important aspects of the style" (but not all styles from what others have posted here), or, more mysteriously, it's used "to cultivate qi" (oookay....).

John's steel spikes make more sense to me!

[Empty_Cup]

In our practice the "mud walking" or "mud stepping" is also used. Some folks choose to emphasize a high, mid-shin "step-over" with a heel landing as if they are stepping over an opponent's feet/leg's/etc. during close-distance sparring. I see some value in training like this.

I favor a natural height, full-foot landing because it is a) easier to speed up and go full speed and b) gives more contact area for the landing foot which means more stability. The principle I use when practicing is that at any time during my step I should be very stable and able to reverse direction suddenly.

[YouKnowWho]

One important Bagua circle walking training is trying to bend your front toe back in both directions as much as you can. You try to put your back foot point 45 degree forward and your front foot to bend back more than 90 degree (both inward and outward). It takes some flexibility to achieve that.

Many people do their "circle walking" and think it's for "health only". They may not know that they are training "shin bite" and "reverse shin bite" in their "circle walking".

[No_Know]

Background: Book study, observations.I walked in mud after reading in the Pa Kua traing manual to step as if in mud.

I did see the big toe-in step some might have alluded to, but that was a kick jammer one teacher licked-so it was his style-ish-his way, his flavor, his flourish for the turn in circle walking at least.

Except these and those who are dedicated to bagua or studied and are knowledgeable, in'of Bagua, what you call mud stepping is not a step as in a way of taking a step or walking. I would be saying it's not mud walking so much as it is mud stepping or better yet, a step in mud.

Let me get Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu (attempt), Squirrel here for a moment, my comprehension is it is about entering and exiting mud at the foot. But to do so engages the pecs abs lats...the torso thighs and calves[O.K., More Ernie Moore Jr. than Squirrel]

I stepped flatfooted. Pressing, transferring as I shift, such that all pressing goes down to the solid through the mud-no weight behind. No weight in front. I breathe to aid the move. My foot becomes as a post. All balance is coordinated from this place-which is coordinatedwith all movable portins of me. I use ankle, knee, hip waist, ab to filter as I move while there is a buffer of the support foot which shows no shift. To me walking in mud slipping happens when weight is anywhere but dispersed throughout/along the entirelty of the foot, or some such.

Once I place the other post, to exit, I lift-ish, Without picking straight-up first I cannot step in mud, as the suction that formed by the stepping locks-ish my foot in place any way but up.

I practiced [the few times a year I did] pick the foot straight-up. Place the foot straight-down (toe-in, toe-out, toe forward~?however, whichever way is the foot, the technique for the foot is Flat! and absolute vertical movement (based on a flat surface~) My Say.

No_Know

[baguazhangus]

Mudstepping is not done by all systems in the same manner

Mudstepping is an attack to the tib fib area in its most common application.

I learned heel to toe stepping or what is called Lion Stepping in other systems as the main method of stepping.


Mud walking is not an attack to the tib/fib area in Cheng Style Bagazhang. It is the key element by which the core structure is developed in Baguazhang. It is especially important for beginners.

[pazman]

I've learned circle walking but not baguazhang. Does the circle walking in baguazhang originally come from Daoist practice?

I learned it completely flat footed, sliding feet along the ground, but I've also seen the "mud walk" before. What is the purpose of the circle walking in baguazhang?

[YouKnowWho]

What is the purpose of the circle walking in baguazhang?
You want to turn your opponent into a new born baby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCsHTNP2MaU

[Dale Dugas]

Mud walking is not an attack to the tib/fib area in Cheng Style Bagazhang. It is the key element by which the core structure is developed in Baguazhang. It is especially important for beginners.


Why would one want to walk unnaturally for core structure?

I find it a waste of time to walk in a manner that is not natural. As it inculcates strange versus natural movement.

Why not walk with the Lion Step, Rolling Step which is a natural heel to toe gait?

Never liked that step much except for entering into someones stance and taking them over.

[baguazhangus]

Why would one want to walk unnaturally for core structure?

I find it a waste of time to walk in a manner that is not natural. As it inculcates strange versus natural movement.

Why not walk with the Lion Step, Rolling Step which is a natural heel to toe gait?

Never liked that step much except for entering into someones stance and taking them over.

I guess you are going to have to figure that out on your own.

[YouKnowWho]

Why would one want to walk unnaturally for core structure?

Why would one want to "cross his legs" to take the risk to "be swept off his feet"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcuN1QKwVFg

The day that you feel comfortable with your "circle walking", the day that your "cross legs" bad habit will be hard to be removed.

[baguazhangus]

Why would one want to "cross his legs" to take the risk to "be swept off his feet"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcuN1QKwVFg

The day that you feel comfortable with your "circle walking", the day that your "cross legs" bad habit will be hard to be removed.

I can't tell what it is . I looks like people are walking the circle. Please enlighten

[YouKnowWho]

I can't tell what it is . I looks like people are walking the circle. Please enlighten
"Never cross your legs when you are in your opponent's kicking range" is an important guideline in TCMA. The Bagua system just violate that basic principle big time. When you try to move into your opponent's side door, if you move your back leg first, the moment that you have to move your front leg, you are already in your opponent's blind spot. Unfortunately the Bagua guys always move their front leg first.

When you are at this position, your oppponent's right foot sweep can take you down without even have to use his hand.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2276/crosslegsp.jpg

[baguazhangus]

That is Classical Baguazhang training

[YouKnowWho]

That is Classical Baguazhang training

I know. It was the style founder's problem. :(

Of course if you train for health, self-cultivation, inner peace, or performance, the "cross legs" won't be an issue. If you train for combat, it will be a big issue.

It's hard to talk about the Bagua system without talking about the "cross legs".

[baguazhangus]

Walking the circle is only a training method for turning and changing direction. When applying Baguazhang in combat you do not cross your legs or walk in a circle.

[baguazhangus]

I noticed in your clip of Tree kick that the person is crossing legs when kicking. They are sort of hopping but none the less they are crossing. I am actually a JKD man and practice Tai Chi , Xing Yi and Baguazhang for health and culture however I have worked with the best internal masters in the US and China that are noted for application and understand why they do what they do. Most people only teach for health and really do not have a deep understanding of the training or applications. Most Bagua in US is very low level and many are fakes. I like Shuai Jiao a lot and was impressed with the skill level in Beijing. The founder of Cheng Style Baguazhang was a noted Shuai Jao practioner. SJ people train very hard and compete and do the application all the time and that is why they have a good level of skill.

[YouKnowWho]

When you walk toward your opponent, you will cross your legs. That "leg crossing" and your opponent's body are in a straight line (180 degree). When you walk in circle and your opponent is the center of the circle, your leg crossing is 90 degree to your opponent's body. The 180 degree leg crossing won't be any problem. The 90 degree leg crossing is the problem.

If you have to walk around your opponent, it's better to let your back foot, front foot, and your opponent to be always on a straight line.

http://imageshack.us/a/img864/8041/circlerunningr.jpg

It's not hard to see that "cross legs" can give your opponent a chance for this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Judo_foot_sweep_-_cropped.jpg