TCMA for combat only

[YouKnowWho]

If you train TCMA for "combat" only without any concern about:

- health,
- performance,
- self-cultivation,
- inner peace,
- spiritual development,
- ...

will you train your TCMA differently?

[GeneChing]

How can you fight well if you aren't healthy? Health is fundamental.

[YouKnowWho]

I run and go to gym for health.

[GeneChing]

And my gym is my mo kwoon. ;)

[ginosifu]

If you train TCMA for "combat" only without any concern about:

- health,
- performance,
- self-cultivation,
- inner peace,
- spiritual development,
- ...

will you train your TCMA differently?

Combat training is the same as any training???? I don't get it John? If you train for tournaments or you train for combat in the streets, what's the difference?

While I am training for combat and street tactics I am getting into shape and staying healthy. If my combat techniques are in good shape I can perform anywhere. While practicing self preservation I am also practicng self cultivation..the same for inner peace and spiritual .... it's all the same John... I get all of these while training my combat stuff.

Your question answers itself. You get all of that stuff when doing anything in your life as long as you enjoy what you are doing

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

If you don't care about

- health, you don't have to punch slow and pull back fast.
- performance, you don't have to post at the end of your punch.
- self-cultivation, you don't have to stand in 混元庄 (Huan Yuan Zhuan).
- inner peace, you don't have to sit in meditation.
- spiritual development, you don't have to ... (not sure what this may be).

This is 混元庄 (Huan Yuan Zhuan). Please don't tell me this training will have any combat value.

http://imageshack.us/a/img829/6677/yiquan.jpg

[ginosifu]

If you don't care about

This is 混元庄 (Huan Yuan Zhuan). Please don't tell me this training will have any combat value.

http://imageshack.us/a/img829/6677/yiquan.jpg

This posture has the same value as "Leaning forward searching for the Sea" or "Kai Sing Points to the Winner" or "Swallow Skims the Water" or any other static posture you do during your combat Shuai Chiao training. It's just a training posture??? However, that's all that Daoists or meditation people do with it.

ginosifu

[Lucas]

To a certain degree you will always be concerned with health, and maintaining a good quality of life. But the focus and intention of your training may not be for health or performance, so yes, you will train differently. We are all going to work towards being strong, and having good cardio, and maintaining relative good quality of body so that we can train and fight without issue.

a combat guy will train with combat as his intention and will cater his training routine around developing a strong ability to fight. but he will still want to be able to be a strong healthy individual in general.

a health guy will train with developing and increasing his quality of his health, and primarily to prolong the state of good and young health as long as possible. he will still learn the general aspects of punching and kicking that come a long with martial arts though.

imo it depends on what your focus and long term goals are.

also i think combat guys will have a varying degree of:

- health,
- performance,
- self-cultivation,
- inner peace,
- spiritual development,

some combat guys will also develop one or two or all of these along side their combat focus. some combat guys will not be concerned with any of these.

but for guys that do not focus on any degree of healthy living, they will either burn out or eventually start to be concerned with health at a later stage and change the way they train. for instance, a healthy diet is an important part of a strong fighters life. you cannot be the best in the world if you are not paying attention to your health.

[Syn7]

I think there is a lot of crossover here. Doing one will help another whether you focus on it or not. But I mos def believe that what you focus on most will decide how effective you will be in a real combat situation, sport or otherwise.

Like, for example, assuming your training isn't irresponsible and doing damage, it will help your over all health. Dedicating yourself to ANYTHING touches on the personal cultivation level. If you are satisfied with your progress, you will find some peace in that.

And I couldn't give a flying **** about performance. But if you wanna make it into a dance, that's cool. As long as you know the difference. Wushu is fun to watch, but I wouldn't want to use it in the field the way they demonstrate it.

[Lebaufist]

I don't think human beings are so compartmentalized that they cannot attain one for the sake of the other. I think they would regardless of the initial intention. The only difference is in the amount of battery you are willing to take. For health, simply means you aren't going to batter your body. As opposed to the fighter needing to be able to exert great force while receiving same.

[bawang]

This is 混元庄 (Huan Yuan Zhuan). Please don't tell me this training will have any combat value.

http://imageshack.us/a/img829/6677/yiquan.jpg

this training has combat value.

[yutyeesam]

If the training is purely for combat, it must mean there is immediate danger present, and the training is urgent. We must be in a police state or warfare or the zombie apocalypse.

So then the focus would be on firearms and explosives training, tactical gun, knife, stick stuff. H2H training would most likely be somewhat minimal, but definitely an emphasis on disarms, maximum power generation for strikes, Kam-La, and "Quick Kills" as some folks call it (lol).

In a sense, sort of what the Krav Maga guys do. Good form and structure are not really emphasized as much as aggression and developing a killer's mindset, because danger is right outside your doorstep.

That would be living in total paranoia.

I would imagine qigong would be quite necessary? Isn't the history of some of them that the generals would have the soliders practice qigong to improve their wounds or somesuch? And right before jumping into the crossfire of a warzone, would it not be beneficial to have a mind calming device to improve performance, if even to stand in Zhan Zhuang for 30 seconds?

Fortunately, some of us don't live in that type of environment, so we have the luxury to train in accordance to our personal preferences, rather than being driven by urgent necessity.

That being said, there is a lot of talk lately about the US government putting tighter restrictions on the sales of firearms, so I see by some facebook posts, some folks are preparing for the scenario I just described above!

Good thought provoking topic, Shifu Wang!

-123

[YouKnowWho]

When your wife tells you that "marriage is more than just sex", there may be something wrong in your marriage. When someone said that "TCMA is more than just combat", that person may just giving up combat.

The following training at 1.01 in this clip is for 100% combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsEGj-OIC6s&feature=relmfu


This posture has the same value as ...

IMO, it has no balance, flexibility, endurance challenge. Even a horse stance will be more challenged.


this training has combat value.

Please share your opinion.

[Kellen Bassette]

That would be living in total paranoia.




Just because your paranoid, don't mean THEY ain't out to get ya....

[yutyeesam]

Just because your paranoid, don't mean THEY ain't out to get ya....

Um......

K.

[xiao yao]

I think the phrase "TCMA is about more than just combat" is not harmful to kung fu at all. The beauty of it is that for different people it can be different things. Some people prefer the combat side, some people prefer the hippie new age stuff, some people just like a more exotic way to get in shape, some people like the culture/history, the list goes on....

If something can be of benefit to so many different people in so many different ways, and open up new paths to aspects they never imagined liking, I think it is a great thing.

[xinyidizi]

If I only trained for combat I would buy a gun and would learn how to shoot and if I was worried that someone might take it from me I would also buy another gun and would hide it

Most of the Kungfu styles were not created for sport fighting and whatever can be practiced without killing your opponent is not kungfu. So in that case any rational person would know that the era of kungfu has been finished a long time ago. Now there are four types of realistic people who practice kungfu.

1: Those who focus on qigong self cultivation: Kungfu can be a very good yang type of training for these people and things like fajin might actually help them in moving qi and therefore improving faster than other qigong practitioners.

2: Those who are interested in both self cultivation and sport combat. These people will find that some aspects of kungfu can actually be adopted in sport combat. However the main focus of training should be on sport fighting if that's what they want because those sports have more techniques to offer for that kind of fighting.

3: Those who have a good business mind and want to make good money by teaching forms to rich people or performing forms.

4: Those who enjoy learning and passing down tradition as it is.

I think anyone who does not belong to these categories is not a realistic person because if you don't practice snapping necks, breaking bones, gouging eyes and killing people in general there is no way you can be good at real combat kungfu and in the age of nuclear bombs and weapons of mass destruction we have much better options for that purpose.

[Syn7]

Just because your paranoid, don't mean THEY ain't out to get ya....

Another nugget from a really smart but intensely dysfunctional rock star.

[YouKnowWho]

Why do we train TCMA weapons? Do we just "dance" with weapon? Let's be honest to ourselves. When we train

- spear, we try to stab our spear head into our opponent's chest.
- Guan Dao, we try to cut our opponent's head off.

To have a hole in the chest or lose a head is not good for our opponent's health. There is nothing spiritual about it to send someone to heaven. Trying to cover the ugly combat by beautiful performance, health, and inner peace are nothing more than just "misleading".

The day that we stop to swing our sword and use our fans, the day that I can agree with that TCMA is for performance and health.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJhVZtNFDw&feature=player_embedded

[ginosifu]

If you train TCMA for "combat" only without any concern about:

- health,
- performance,
- self-cultivation,
- inner peace,
- spiritual development,
- ...

will you train your TCMA differently?

Health

Shuai Chiao fighting has gotten me in the best shape / health of my life.

Performance

I do a demo or performance of knife self defense it is still combat.

self cultivation / inner peace / spiritual develoment

I gain all of the above 3 while practicing / training my combat kung fu. I am happiest (Self Cultivation) when I am fighting in SC. I am content (Inner Peace) while practing knife fighting drills. My spirit soars while drilling my techniques with my partners and dreaming of the times I may need to use them...

I get everything from my kung fu training. Health fitness, self defense and spiritual development.. all in 1 package. If you need to run to get into shape... then quit kung fu and go run.

ginosifu

[xinyidizi]

Why do we train TCMA weapons? Do we just "dance" with weapon? Let's be honest to ourselves. When we train

- spear, we try to stab our spear head into our opponent's chest.
- Guan Dao, we try to cut our opponent's head off.

To have a hole in the chest or lose a head is not good for our opponent's health. There is nothing spiritual about it to send someone to heaven. Trying to cover the ugly combat by beautiful performance, health, and inner peace are nothing more than just "misleading".

The day that we stop to swing our sword and use our fans, the day that I can agree with that TCMA is for performance and health.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJhVZtNFDw&feature=player_embedded

How many trained opponents have you killed in a fair combat with your bare hands or with your guandao?

Kungfu is not about enjoying hurting people and fake combat competitions. It is about killing the enemies of your country or your family when you have no other choice. Although I enjoy dabbling in sanda I have no doubt that it is fake combat. PH, SC, Karate, TKD, boxing, MMA,... competitions are also fake combat games to various degrees.

There is a time for everything and the time of real Kungfu finished ages ago because there is no need for it anymore and people who are still in the business of killing use other far more efficient tools. The reason that we don't have anymore real kungfu masters now is not because kungfu is weak. It is because there is no need for it anymore and there is no way people can train it. The history shows it clearly that the people who we know as kungfu masters mostly died 100 years ago and there were some leftovers who also died a bit later but today they have all been completely wiped off the earth because you can't become a real kungfu master if you haven't killed dozens of trained opponents with your bare hands, sword, spear, ... and exactly how can we do this today? Why would we need to do this today?

Perhaps I will never learn nor need to use the full potential of my kungfu but I enjoy it for what it is and I don't pretend it to be more than that. Is there any law against enjoying to perform forms, dancing with my spear, playing with watered down combat?

[jimbob]

In 1991-1992 I fought in full contact competitions in Malaysia and the Philippines from a base in Singapore.

My Sihing and Sifu made me drill these techniques over and over again.

jab
straight
overhand (sow choy)
spinning backfist
elbow - horizontal and vertical
spinning elbow
knee
round kick
side kick
front kick/stepping kick

We did this and nothing but as preparation, in as many combinations as we thought possible, focussing on 5 basic combo's that we could pull off without thinking.

That was it. I asked my Sihing if this was the 'essence' of CLF. He snorted at me and said this was essence of fighting.

[Kellen Bassette]

In 1991-1992 I asked my Sihing if this was the 'essence' of CLF. He snorted at me and said this was essence of fighting.

I like it.

[rett]

If you train TCMA for "combat" only without any concern about:

- health,
- performance,
- self-cultivation,
- inner peace,
- spiritual development,
- ...

will you train your TCMA differently?

Good question, interesting and thought-provoking.

I'll interpret it like this: Suppose I knew that sometime in the next year or two or three I'd have to fight for my life using barehanded techniques. No idea of the specifics but something was definitely going to befall me. That would bring a sense of focus.

To be honest, with that kind of ominous motivation, I'd probably switch schools/approaches altogether. Maybe retain the most foundational training from Shaolin and Taiji, but as I'm not getting much applications and partner drills there, it would have to be set aside for the time being.

I'd see if I could rejoin a hybrid wing-chun+ some thai boxing group I know of that did a lot of partner drills, bag and pad work, sparring, and some scenario training. The senior coaches (in their 40s) worked as bouncers and things like that and the head teacher trains soldiers and bodyguards in hand to hand. If they're not still active or won't have me back I'd try to find a group with similar orientation.

On top of that I'd urgently seek out training partners who live nearby. The goal is to train often and less intensively (have to manage total energy at my age). Make it a part of everyday life.

One thing I wouldn't do is spar with head-shots more than very infrequently. That is just too unhealthy IMO.

I'd focus a lot on footwork, with a partner. Even playful soft drills with a lot of movement and coordination could improve reaction time, perception response. Games where you're just lightly slapping each other are really useful I believe. You can't always go 100%.

My main weapons would be a couple of low kicks, a couple of palms and chops, a couple of hammarfists and elbows. Motivated by what I would actually have to face I would drill these constantly. I'd also drill a few clinching-distance followups along the lines of Fairbairn's (oddly named) "chin jab". A take-down. a footsweep. I'd want a simple, high-percentage entry, for example a dive that becomes an elbow to the opp’s solar plexus.

What I would keep from the traditional training is ideas of balance and rooting and trying to disrupt an opponent’s balance, as practiced in some drills for that purpose.

Just the absolute basics of groundwork. I'm assuming I may be attacked by multiple opponents and going to ground=death.

I'd run a couple of times a week, but focus on 400 and 800 meters. I'm not expecting a drawn out ring-duel with multiple rounds and a referee.

Luckily I don't have any reason to think this will happen, and I'm happy to train mostly for health, coordination, inner peace etc.

[mooyingmantis]

John,
Good discussion!

Mine is a self-defense (combat) oriented school. I have changed how I teach over the years to reflect that fact more and more.

From day one of training, a student practices what I feel are the most effective fighting combinations gleaned from the mantis forms. This will continue till the end of the student's training.

A typical class consists of:

1. 15 minutes of form training (only one or two empty hand forms are taught per year) and applications.

2a. 1 hour and 15 minutes of combination training as two man drills, on focus mitts, and on BOB. Combinations are practiced on both sides of the body and students are expected to fight ambidextrously.

2b. Some nights sparring is substituted for the entire combinations time slot.

Sparring is continuous and students are expected to fight one opponent after another till exhausted. We pride ourselves in that sparring is more brutal in our school than in any other martial arts school that I have seen locally. It's how we do. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Every time that I have heard what our previous generation could do, I always believed that they didn't train TCMA for health, ... IMO, the reason that our generation is not as good as our previous generation because we are just not serious enough.

Legend said that

- XingYi master 唐维禄 could run faster than train.
- When XingYi master 尚云祥 slept, people could walk passed him, it won't brother him. When people looked at him, he would waked up.
- 尚云祥's student 丁志涛 could nail people on the ground.
- An old man spitted out water from his mouth to knock down challenger.
- ......

If people are interest in the following article, you can use online translation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
李仲轩（1915-2004），出身于天津书香门第，却性喜练武。年轻时曾先后拜北方三位拳术名家唐维禄、尚云祥、薛颠为师， 探骊得珠，博采各家之长， 深得形意拳之精义。三十四岁自武林退隐，身怀绝技，隐居市井数十年，和光同尘，不事张扬。晚年曾为京城西单 某家商场看门谋生。只是到了辞世前的最后几年， 因机缘凑合，遂向外界一位有心人全盘倾吐半个世纪前的武林旧事。其中既展示了众多武术大家的言行风貌、逸闻 佚事，也透露了不少曾经秘而不宣的练功秘诀。李 仲轩口述的系列文章以连载的形式，于2000年12月由《武魂》杂志公开发表以来，惊动了海内外武术界一池 春水，好评如潮，被誉为“中华武学最后一个高峰 期的最后一位见证者”。
　　
　　习武者冬练三九夏练三伏，长年累月地埋首苦练，究竟能达到一种什么样的境界呢？据李仲轩口述：“形意拳 能 练到什么程度呢？唐师跟我打比方，说从悬崖峭壁跳下，快撞到地面时，用手在石壁上一拍，人横着飞出去了，平 安无事。”（第48页）纵身跳下，横着飞出，能 致人于死命的千斤重力于一刹那间烟消云散，得到化解――这个姿态本身即可谓“力学”中的精巧构思，妙不可言 ！

　　那个时代，比武不像如今“武林风”中的选手，动辄以抱对方大腿而取胜――你想武松打架会抱腿吗？都是一 发力即可把对手远远摔开去。李仲轩第三个 师傅是薛颠。“薛颠和师兄傅昌荣在一座两层的酒楼比武，薛颠说：‘这不是一个比武的地方。’傅昌荣说：‘打 你不用多大的地方。’――这是激将法，薛颠仓促 出手，傅昌荣一记‘回身掌’把薛颠打下了酒楼。他是从二楼栏杆上下去的，摔得很结实，看热闹的人都以为他摔 坏了，不料他马上就站了起来，对酒楼上的傅昌荣 说了句：‘以后我找你。’便一步步走了。”（第163页）这件事的另一个版本：“唐（维禄）师说，薛颠与傅 昌荣原本交好，俩人借宿在关东营口的一家粮店， 临睡前试了试手，傅昌荣突然发力，把薛颠摔了出去，窗框都撞裂了，薛颠深以为耻，便走了。”（ 第43-44页）一巴掌即可把对手摔出去撞破窗框，这就是与 当今花拳绣腿迥然不同的原汁原味的中华武功。

　　薛颠此次比武失败，深以为耻，即隐居五台山独自练功，经一位百余岁名叫“虚无上人灵空长老”的老和尚指 点，武艺突飞猛进。几年后，薛颠重回天津 找傅昌荣交手，“薛颠的武功达到了‘神变’的程度，傅昌荣也一直在长功夫，绕着脸盆走一圈，脸盆里的水就旋 起来，简直匪夷所思。其实他迈步看似极轻却极 重，脚一落地便将脸盆里的水震荡起来。这份腿功已是‘举重若轻’的境界，一迈步便能伤人，薛、傅的比武，真 会必有一伤的”（第44 页）。后由大师兄尚云祥出面调解，说同门师兄弟不能“斗命”，并让薛颠接师傅李存义的班，出任天津国术馆馆 长，方才了此一段公案。

　李仲轩所拜的第二个师傅就是这位尚云祥，功夫亦十分了得，号称“铁脚佛”，平日里随意练一回拳，脚下的砖 石皆会裂开。这仅仅是略显身手的小玩意。 尚云祥无时不备的敏捷感应才是一种出神入化的绝技。“一个夏天，一个徒弟从窗户外见到尚云祥睡觉，有寺庙里 卧佛的宁静气派，生起恭敬之心，心里感慨：‘跟 着尚师傅，就能学出真东西。’这时尚云祥一下就醒了，说：‘我这个人睡觉时不能让人看，人一看，就醒。’” （第86页）“尚师睡觉的时候，在他身边说话、 走动都没事，可只要一把注意力放在他身上，尚师傅便挺身醒了。听着神奇，但练形意拳日子久了，一定会出现这 一效果。”（第39页）这种不可思议的敏捷感应 就是拳谱上所说 “随感而发，有触必应”，有了这种感应，哪怕睡觉时也不可能被人偷袭而遇害。

　　李仲轩第一个师傅唐维禄的脚力非常神奇，据说一个晚上能行三四百里。“唐师绰号‘唐小猴’，孙禄堂绰号 ‘孙猴子’，是说两人皆有翻墙越脊之能， 两人并称为‘二禄’，谐音为‘二鹿’，是说两人皆有夜行三四百里的脚力。唐师来京，为了避免施展腿功惊扰了 路人，都是在宁河睡到一更天再动身，天亮时便到 了北京，途中还要偷越过几道关卡。”（第37页）有时唐维禄的速度还能追上火车：“形意门的怪事不敢讲。年 轻时，我一度住在丁志涛家。在那时，唐师给我们 表演过追火车。就是让我们坐一站的火车，唐师说了：‘我抄近道追你们啊。’等我们到了，见唐师在火车站等我 们呢，摇着扇子，身上没汗。能抄的近道，我们都 想了，抄上也不会那么快。我和丁志涛都不敢说话了。”（第49页）李仲轩还举了唐维禄快步如飞的另一个例子 ：“日军侵占京津时期，唐维禄在京津两地往返， 夜里手拎灯笼，避开关卡走野地，有时快成一条线，由于走得多了，沿途设卡的伪军远远见了，就知道是唐师傅来 了，他们不开枪。笔者当时问：‘要是开枪呢？’ 李老说：‘开枪了也打不着。以前开过枪，枪一响，唐师傅就有了办法。’”（第64页）能追火车与躲闪远距离 开枪，乍闻之下，连笔者都无法信以为真，但像李 仲轩这样一位终身信守诺言不敢稍稍有违师训的武林前辈，为人处事朴实敦厚，犹存古风，决非是时下惯见的打诳 语的角儿。信乎不信乎？或许八卦拳名家孙禄堂的 腿功及速度可以提供一些参照：“孙禄堂的腿功，是新闻事件。他和段祺瑞坐敞篷汽车，逆风而行，车速很快。段 祺瑞头上戴着巴拿马草帽，被风吹走。孙禄堂跳下 车追到草帽后再追汽车，司机还没意识到有人跳车，他就已经回到车上。”

　　武林奇事多，李仲轩说：“旧时代练武人时兴访人，练成了就四处走，谁出名就找谁……有个壮武师，访到一 个老头，老头说：‘我多大岁数了，比不 了。’壮武师非要比，这时有个人挑了两桶水过来，老头说：‘那就比吧，可你得容我喝口水。’拦住了挑水人， 没想到老头一喝就喝了一桶水，壮武师看呆了，老 头猛一张口，一口水把壮武师喷倒在地。我没见过练形意的人练这东西，原本以为是传说，但一次看戏，发现评剧 名角高月楼在舞台上表演这个。他在台下也表演， 一口水能喷出去很远，离他一步距离，挨他一口水，等于挨一个小拳头。”（第226-227页）

　　最奇的还有这样一件事：“唐师有个徒弟叫丁志涛，被称为‘津东大侠’。天津东边两个村子争水，即将演变 成武打，丁志涛去了。动手的人过来，他一 发劲打得那人直愣愣站住，几秒钟都抬不了脚，这是形意的劈拳劲，一掌兜下去，能把人‘钉’在地上。他‘钉’ 了十几个人，就制止了这场武斗，也因此成名。” （第6页）当代世界贫富扩大，社会转型期间种种矛盾如暗潮涌动，海内外各地主政者正为如何应对“群体性事件 ”而烦恼不已，催泪弹与水龙头充其量只能发挥驱 散之功效，受众似乎并不畏惧，过后又可卷土重来；唯有一巴掌把人“钉”在地上动弹不得的中华武功，既有威慑 力而免杀伤力，双美俱全，圆融和谐，倒不失为化 解“群体性事件”的一种妙法，值得美国联邦警察署及英国皇家马队学习学习。

　 　中国的武功高手，虽是绝技惊人，但平日里并不显山露水，往往隐身于市井贩夫走卒之中，懒慵慵度日，如同传 说中的文殊菩萨，常在五台山以乞丐、老翁、村 姑、孩童相示人。例如：尚云祥经营帽子小买卖，“尚师早年是做帽子的，晚年生活来源的一部分是徒弟单广钦的 资助，单广钦做水果、糕点生意”（第10页）。 唐维禄有个师兄叫张景富，绰号“果子张”，“以炸油条为生，是曾任清宫武术教习申万林的弟子”（第17页） 。八卦拳名家程廷华以制眼镜为生，在北京崇文门 外开个眼镜铺，江湖上称之为“眼镜程”（第58页）。李仲轩的师弟丁志涛是杀猪的屠夫，“一天唐师带我去找 他，他正干活，将猪脊骨在案板上一磕就软了，骨 节散开。唐师拍拍我说：‘咱们的擒拿就是这个。’”（第31页）另外，八卦门中还有个点穴高手，据说“武功 与程廷华相当，绰号‘煤子马’，卖煤球的”（第 80页）。

　　这些炸油条、卖煤球、制眼镜、杀肥猪的武功高手，佐证了一句“英雄不问出身”的老话，这当然仅仅是一方 面。另一方面武林中也有人物以轩昂面目现 身的：如形意拳大师李存义曾在两江总督刘坤一麾下任武官，训练士兵，屡建功绩。后往保定开设万通镖局，保护 南北商贾往来。庚子之变，率领弟子抗击八国联 军。晚年创办中华武士会，赴京参加“万国赛武大会”，击败俄国大力士康泰尔。再如将形意、八卦、太极三家武 艺合冶一炉，创立孙氏太极拳的孙禄堂，曾被民国 徐世昌聘入总统府，出任武宣官，有“虎头少保、天下第一手”的美誉。

　　笔者曾浏览过民国金铁庵编辑的《金钟罩、铁布衫真传》、《一指禅、红砂手真传》等书，名称虽然惊心夺目 ，内容肯一吐秘技练法的不多。眼前这本口 述史虽然讲述了不少武林逸事，但最有价值的部分却是披露了不少数十年练武的经验之谈和往日秘而不宣的武功诀 窍。这些东西精湛非凡，小叩则小鸣，大叩则大 鸣，唯有缘者得之可获益匪浅。

　　在当前《魔兽世界》与迪士尼乐园共舞、比萨饼与汉堡包齐飞的新时代中，以都市青年白领为代表的群体，终 日窝在转椅或沙发中工作、休闲，一个个养 得像肥嘟嘟不思动弹的肉鸡，缺乏一种清新刚健的姿态。这或许是拜过度工业化、城市化所赐的一种后果。夕阳西 下，往往会留给这个世界一抹彩霞，李仲轩老人辞 世前留下的这部口述史展示了另一种世界的别样风光，骠悍勇武，同样可以令人观赏感叹不已。

[Graculus]

Training for combat involves having a good idea of what form this combat would take, and thus what kind of training would be suitable. In merely a physical sense, I would train a few (a very few) moves/combinations that would be useful in the kind of situations that I (imagine I) would find myself in, and their variations.

I would not restrict this to my 'training time' - but would be continually training in one way or another throughout the day. A lot depends on mental factors, and these would also be a feature of training... image training rather than meditation, incorporated with physical work.

In any case, intensity, in all aspects, would be key. Given the degree to which the human body can take hard training with the danger of injury, injury management would also be important.

Outcomes in combat also depend on tactical and strategic factors, and focussing on these aspects could pay dividends.

graculus

[YouKnowWho]

Only people who are serious in combat (not just 1/2 serious) will spend time to develop "door guarding" skill. When you develop your "shin bite" against a tree trunk.

- It's not good for your health.
- Nothing to perform.
- Nothing spiritual, self-cultivation, and inner peace.

When nobody ever train their "door guarding" skill, how can we still claim that TCMA has any combat value?

When you care about combat, you will spend more time to train your "finish moves", moves that can end fight ASAP. When you have that priority in mind, your daily training program will be different.

[RenDaHai]

When you care about combat, you will spend more time to train your "finish moves", moves that can end fight ASAP. When you have that priority in mind, your daily training program will be different.

I dunno. You see if you are in a life or death situation you are going to use any weapon available, or tooth and nail.

If it is a less than life threatening situation, just a regular fight then you want to be as nice as possible because there will be legal ramifications to everything you do and you don't want the legal/moral/social problems attached to causing harm.

So if you ARE into combat but BARE handed then I think you will want to focus on your 'defanging the wolf' techniques. If it is serious enough to ground and pound someone then it is serious enough to use any hard object you find lying around or to bite open the jugular.

But then the very fact you have included the moral and social implications into your art it is no longer just for combat.....

[RenDaHai]

- An old man spitted out water from his mouth to knock down challenger.


When I practiced XinYiLiuHe they advocated spitting in the opponents face as a precursor to punching them. They also use to suggested sniffing the air before making the decision to enter combat. I think it is to engage ones instinct.

[YouKnowWho]

So if you ARE into combat but BARE handed then I think you will want to focus on your 'defanging the wolf' techniques. ...

Why would you (general YOU) get into fight? Because you may think that you are not man enough if you don't fight? Why would you think that you may not be man enough? Because you don't know whether you can truly handle your opponent or not.

When you don't know that your punch is strong enough to knock your opponent down, or your throw is skillful enough to take your opponent down, you will be more likely to accept the fight just to verify your self-confidence. If you have confidence in your "finish moves", it won't hurt your self-confidence to back up and avoid the fight.

You have to have fighting ability before you can talk about "inner peace". Without the combat ability, the "inner peace" is only a lie to yourself. There is a big difference between:

- Can do but don't want to do, and
- want to do but can't do.

After you have WMD, you can then talk about world peace. There is no country on earth that talk about "world peace" and not owns WMD and that's for sure.

[YouKnowWho]

One XingYi master used to say, "If you are scared, I may be more scared than you". When his opponent was scare to be killed, the XingYi master was scared to kill his opponent and spend the rest of his life in jail.

To have combat ability can mean great "inner peace" but not the other way around.

[Drake]

Sorry, but this sounds like fantasy world garbage concocted by people that live in their parents' basement watching Bruce Lee marathons all day.

If you get into combat, real combat, and not some fantasy world from 1800s China, you will be shot. Probably more than once. No roundhouse, sow choy, pek choy, or sweep is going to save you, regardless of whether or not you practiced it 1000 times with burning fire all around you.

If you are doing martial arts for anything other than health, fitness, or fun competition, you are delusional.

[ginosifu]

Sorry, but this sounds like fantasy world garbage concocted by people that live in their parents' basement watching Bruce Lee marathons all day.

If you get into combat, real combat, and not some fantasy world from 1800s China, you will be shot. Probably more than once. No roundhouse, sow choy, pek choy, or sweep is going to save you, regardless of whether or not you practiced it 1000 times with burning fire all around you.

If you are doing martial arts for anything other than health, fitness, or fun competition, you are delusional.

What if I just want to keep a traditional fighting art to pass on to my kids. It has nothing to do with trying to fight with todays gun happy society, but of preserving an ancient fighting form for future generations.

Maybe just maybe either my self or someone I teach it to might be able to subdue an intruder or stop a rape in progress or stop that parent from beaten down their kid etc. I said this before here on the threads... I stopped a guy from beatin his wife... You are right that weapons do prevail nowadays but hand to hand is still something to keep in your back pockets for those "Just in Cases"

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

No roundhouse, sow choy, pek choy, or sweep is going to save you, ...
My SC brother Victor Ke used his combat skill to save his job.

Two guys in Victor's company always looked for trouble on his. During department meeting, those 2 guys accused him to have Chinese accent and couldn't understand his presentation. Onetime Victor brought his prototype to his manager's office, those 2 guys broke his model as if it was an accident. Victor called his wife and asked her how much money that they still had in the bank. He told his wife that he might have to get into a fight and that could cost him to be fired that day. He and those 2 guys meet in one place, Victor used his "foot sweep" to take both guys down on the ground. After they got back up, they left and never bother my friend any more. Victor could keep his job for another 20 years and retire from his job after that.

When Victor was young, a local gang group wanted him to join in their gang. He didn't want to and had to fight all the gang members one after another (tradition in Taiwan). After he had defeated all the gang members one after another, they left him along and never bother him any more.

My SC brother Cheng Hsing-Ping used his TCMA skill to take a knife away from a guy who tried to rob a girl in NYC China town. It was a big news in newspaper and TV news.

There is no way that I'll say that combat ability is useless in 21th centry.

[Syn7]

There is a time for everything and the time of real Kungfu finished ages ago because there is no need for it anymore and people who are still in the business of killing use other far more efficient tools.

No reason why you can't use guns, flash bangs, shields etc in your training. I mean, if you have the need to be a proficient killer, shouldn't you approach it the same way as you would with a sword? Practice practice practice. Acquire whatever skillsets meet your goals. That is kung fu. Modern tools doesn't change any of that. Just know your limits and work within them. You can't use a chi blast to stop a bomb from killing you, but you can sure as hell get your run and jump on, or use tools to minimize or prevent the damage. Or just know you're in a bad spot and back off. I'm sorry, I just don't see the difference between that and old style bladed weapons training.

You either learn to defend yourself in less harsh situations, or you go all out and become a brutal killer. The rest is just a dance. I'm not pointing any fingers, so nobody get their panties in a knot over this, please.

[YouKnowWho]

If combat skill is nothing more than just to be able to cover my head and not been knocked out by my opponent's punches, that's good enough reason for me to spend several hours daily to develop that skill.

I may be able to obtain my health from different sports. I can only develop my combat skill through MA training.

[Drake]

If combat skill is nothing more than just to be able to cover my head and not been knocked out by my opponent's punches, that's good enough reason for me to spend several hours daily to develop that skill.

I may be able to obtain my health from different sports. I can only develop my combat skill through MA training.

You need several hours a day for that?

[Drake]

What if I just want to keep a traditional fighting art to pass on to my kids. It has nothing to do with trying to fight with todays gun happy society, but of preserving an ancient fighting form for future generations.

Maybe just maybe either my self or someone I teach it to might be able to subdue an intruder or stop a rape in progress or stop that parent from beaten down their kid etc. I said this before here on the threads... I stopped a guy from beatin his wife... You are right that weapons do prevail nowadays but hand to hand is still something to keep in your back pockets for those "Just in Cases"

ginosifu

You are right. I left out preserving heritage and tradition. Good catch.

[xinyidizi]

My SC brother Victor Ke used his combat skill to save his job.

Two guys in Victor's company always looked for trouble on his. During department meeting, those 2 guys accused him to have Chinese accent and couldn't understand his presentation. Onetime Victor brought his prototype to his manager's office, those 2 guys broke his model as if it was an accident. Victor called his wife and asked her how much money that they still had in the bank. He told his wife that he might have to get into a fight and that could cost him to be fired that day. He and those 2 guys meet in one place, Victor used his "foot sweep" to take both guys down on the ground. After they got back up, they left and never bother my friend any more. Victor could keep his job for another 20 years and retire from his job after that.

When Victor was young, a local gang group wanted him to join in their gang. He didn't want to and had to fight all the gang members one after another (tradition in Taiwan). After he had defeated all the gang members one after another, they left him along and never bother him any more.

My SC brother Cheng Hsing-Ping used his TCMA skill to take a knife away from a guy who tried to rob a girl in NYC China town. It was a big news in newspaper and TV news.

There is no way that I'll say that combat ability is useless in 21th centry.

Considering that one is very lucky and there are no guns involved the only skills that are useful for real combat situations are those that don't hurt your opponent like qinna, wrestling, ... but TCMA is mostly not about them. Most TCMA or probably any other striking arts are dangerous and hurting your opponent means a big lawsuit. My friend used his TCMA in a bar fight and broke one guy's bones. His dad gave that guy a lot of money to drop the charges. In another bar fight he broke someone's jaw and sent that guy to coma for many days. He was lucky the guy didn't die. This time he went to prison however his dad paid that guy lots of money again and they released him.

[Kellen Bassette]

Every time that I have heard what our previous generation could do, I always believed that they didn't train TCMA for health, ... IMO, the reason that our generation is not as good as our previous generation because we are just not serious enough.



I feel your generation screwed it up, lol...your older than me...

It's actually a cyclical problem. I got a book from mainland China, written in the '30's lamenting the same problem. The current generation is too focused on forms and performance...our teachers were fighters who partner trained always...we won't be able to beat Japanese Judo or Western Boxing without partner/combat training, ect...I also came across something similar from sometime in the 1800's I believe.

You see cultural shifts between favoring performance or combat training during certain generations, probably may have been regional reasons as well...I think the extended periods of war always helped keep the arts real/world combat focused...maybe not because they could use bare hands against weapons, but maybe because it kept them in a warrior mind set??? Who knows...

[Kellen Bassette]

If combat skill is nothing more than just to be able to cover my head and not been knocked out by my opponent's punches, that's good enough reason for me to spend several hours daily to develop that skill.


I just spent almost a month with this is the primary focus...training everything else, but my guard number one on my mind. I tend to keep it to wide and eat more punches than necessary.

Sometimes even after years, you just got to go back, rework the basics and fix bad habits that inevitably develop.

[Syn7]

If combat skill is nothing more than just to be able to cover my head and not been knocked out by my opponent's punches, that's good enough reason for me to spend several hours daily to develop that skill.

I may be able to obtain my health from different sports. I can only develop my combat skill through MA training.

Uuuhmm, sort of. Advanced skills anyways. You can learn a lot about tumbling and agility through other activities that would transfer over well. But yes, if you want a strong punch, you have to hit something a lot.

[Kellen Bassette]

Why would you (general YOU) get into fight? Because you may think that you are not man enough if you don't fight? Why would you think that you may not be man enough? Because you don't know whether you can truly handle your opponent or not.

Fighters fight bro. Doesn't need to be any deeper than that. Little boys wrestle and spar naturally. You can tell who has fighting spirit and who doesn't when they're just kids.

I don't believe you can make a fighter. You can teach them everything they need to know and some people will still freeze up. Fighters want to fight and test themselves; others want something else from the art...there's a lot to attract various people.
Those who aren't fighters make excuses why it can't or shouldn't be used. Fighters ignore them and fight.



After you have WMD, you can then talk about world peace. There is no country on earth that talk about "world peace" and not owns WMD and that's for sure.

Nice insight. ;)

[Kellen Bassette]

When I practiced XinYiLiuHe they advocated spitting in the opponents face as a precursor to punching them. They also use to suggested sniffing the air before making the decision to enter combat. I think it is to engage ones instinct.

That's interesting...one of my teachers would have us take a real quick deep breath through the nose before doing a form/sparring. He said it was like an oxygen high, if you do it fast and hard.

Don't know if there's anything to that at all, but it seemed to make you focus a lot better. May just be a mental thing...but people get cured by placebos sometimes, so who knows.

[YouKnowWho]

I feel your generation screwed it up,.....

You are right about this. I had sparred with my senior longfist brothers (such as Nelson Zhou, ...) but I could never make my junior longfist brothers to spar with me. For some unknown reason, combat was just not in their priority list.

David C. K. Lin always said that by including our teacher's experience, we had experienced TCMA for the past 100 years. The trend is not good.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't believe you can make a fighter.

That's why it's important to be able to select your students if money is not issue. Some of my guys go to MMA gym. Because their Chinese wrestling background, those MMA gym loved to let them to test their skill there for free. It could benefit both parties.

One of my guys had 15 years wrestling background. Onetime he defeat another guy by 15-0. A year later he met the same guy again, He found out that every moves he liked to use, that guy could almost do as good as he did. During their rematch, my guy could only beat him 5 points ahead.

If you can beat me, I want to spar with you, so I can learn from you and beat you someday. That's a great attitude to have.

[Kellen Bassette]

You are right about this. I had sparred with my senior longfist brothers (such as Nelson Zhou, ...) but I could never make my junior longfist brothers to spar with me. For some unknown reason, combat was just not in their priority list.

David C. K. Lin always said that by including our teacher's experience, we had experienced TCMA for the past 100 years. The trend is not good.

I may be off base, but I think what happened, in the States anyway, was we had this influx of MAs in the '60's and 70's...it didn't take long to figure out the real money is in teaching kids. When you gear towards kids, in the USA, you cant' be sending them home with black eyes and bloody noses or making them do real conditioning...their parents would freak.

So point sparring becomes popular to keep it "somewhat martial." Fast forward to 2012 and you have a full 3 or 4 generations of students who never engaged in true combat oriented training or real conditioning. They think/claim they are teaching traditionally, because their instructor taught them this way. The arts begin to die.

Here in Thailand you got 8 year old kids fighting full contact with elbows to the face, no head gear ect..fighting pro rules...many have 100 fights by the time they are 18. This simply wouldn't be socially acceptable in the west, putting a 10 year old kid in a situation where getting knocked out is a very real possibility.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's why it's important to be able to select your students if money is not issue. Some of my guys go to MMA gym. Because their Chinese wrestling background, those MMA gym loved to let them to test their skill there for free. It could benefit both parties.


An advantage real MMA schools have over TMA is your only going to have people who are interested in combat. If you don't have fighting spirit, you simply won't last training for an MMA match and will drop out.

If a TCMA sifu taught in this truly combat oriented manner, he would probably lose 3/4 of his class and his livelihood. I used to be opposed to separating TCMA and Sanda into different classes. I felt it was bad for the art and confusing to the true purpose of TCMA.

I'm starting to think it may be the answer though. At least with the separate classes, the health crowd, the artsy guys, the people who just want a fun workout and the LARPERS can train TCMA and be happy, sifu keeps the lights on. The fighters can train both classes.




If you can beat me, please join me, so I can learn from you. This is a great attitude.

Absolutely.

[YouKnowWho]

In today's class, my guys were talking about more TCMA are used in UFC. They have seen some vertical fist, reverse side kick (cross leg), ...

When my guy used his leading leg to "bait" his opponent's "single leg" so he could use his over hook and elbow cracking, those MMA guys all love that move and want to collect that tool into their toolbox. A valid single leg counter can be very valuable. I'm sure TCMA skill will be used in UFC more and more. Just hate to see that MMA guys help us to preserve TCMA and not our TCMA guys.

[Kellen Bassette]

In today's class, my guys were talking about more TCMA are used in UFC. They have seen some vertical fist, reverse side kick (cross leg), ...

When my guy used his leading leg to "bait" his opponent's "single leg" so he could use his over hook and elbow cracking, those MMA guys all love that move and want to collect that tool into their toolbox. A valid single leg counter can be very valuable. I'm sure TCMA skill will be used in UFC more and more. Just hate to see that MMA guys help us to preserve TCMA and not our TCMA guys.

I would add cross kick (shin check with the back leg to opponents lead leg) and low side kick as well. I even saw Alex Carceres land a double punch, couldn't believe it.

I think the MMA guys are open to new techs when you can demonstrate their value in a fighting scenario. Cung Le's going to nearly single handedly bring the spinning heel kick into the cage. There's a couple others that use it....but Cung throws it in almost every fight.

[Jimbo]

I may be off base, but I think what happened, in the States anyway, was we had this influx of MAs in the '60's and 70's...it didn't take long to figure out the real money is in teaching kids. When you gear towards kids, in the USA, you cant' be sending them home with black eyes and bloody noses or making them do real conditioning...their parents would freak.

So point sparring becomes popular to keep it "somewhat martial." Fast forward to 2012 and you have a full 3 or 4 generations of students who never engaged in true combat oriented training or real conditioning. They think/claim they are teaching traditionally, because their instructor taught them this way. The arts begin to die.

Here in Thailand you got 8 year old kids fighting full contact with elbows to the face, no head gear ect..fighting pro rules...many have 100 fights by the time they are 18. This simply wouldn't be socially acceptable in the west, putting a 10 year old kid in a situation where getting knocked out is a very real possibility.

I can agree with some of your points. A lot of the MA schools now cater to children out of financial necessity. I'm not really certain when the 'kiddie karate' (or whatever art) emphasis took off in full force, but my personal experiences when I began training in the '70s were not like that. I always trained with adults, and if you couldn't take it, you were free to leave. I saw a few other kids who came and went, and was the only kid who stuck with it consistently over those early years. My karate instructor even flunked me twice on my black belt test. I finally passed the third time, but had to take the full test all three times. And it was a tough test...no point tag, but lots of kickboxing. I doubt many teachers nowadays would flunk many students during testing, especially kids or teens. And I don't think my experiences were unique at the time.

But as far as kids in Thailand who compete in Muay Thai, that really isn't a fair comparison to your typical American kid. Aren't most of those kids from poor families who need the income of a fighting career? That's their ticket to a livelihood. I doubt your typical, educated city kid even in Thailand wants to train like that. If someone is going to be a doctor, a teacher, a pilot, musician, etc., why would they? Unless they are planning to be a pro fighter, or make MA the only occupation in their life.

I believe in a martially-oriented mindset in MA, but there has got to be other considerations as well. Generally speaking, most people take it up to in some way enhance their lives, not let it take over their lives completely. I used to have an all-or-nothing attitude about MA, but now there's other things I love in life too, and I wouldn't continue training anymore if I didn't enjoy it.

[Jimbo]

Why would you (general YOU) get into fight? Because you may think that you are not man enough if you don't fight? Why would you think that you may not be man enough? Because you don't know whether you can truly handle your opponent or not.

When you don't know that your punch is strong enough to knock your opponent down, or your throw is skillful enough to take your opponent down, you will be more likely to accept the fight just to verify your self-confidence. If you have confidence in your "finish moves", it won't hurt your self-confidence to back up and avoid the fight.

You have to have fighting ability before you can talk about "inner peace". Without the combat ability, the "inner peace" is only a lie to yourself. There is a big difference between:

- Can do but don't want to do, and
- want to do but can't do.

This is very true.

[Kellen Bassette]

I can agree with some of your points. A lot of the MA schools now cater to children out of financial necessity. I'm not really certain when the 'kiddie karate' (or whatever art) emphasis took off in full force, but my personal experiences when I began training in the '70s were not like that. I always trained with adults, and if you couldn't take it, you were free to leave. I saw a few other kids who came and went, and was the only kid who stuck with it consistently over those early years. My karate instructor even flunked me twice on my black belt test. I finally passed the third time, but had to take the full test all three times. And it was a tough test...no point tag, but lots of kickboxing. I doubt many teachers nowadays would flunk many students during testing, especially kids or teens. And I don't think my experiences were unique at the time.

But as far as kids in Thailand who compete in Muay Thai, that really isn't a fair comparison to your typical American kid. Aren't most of those kids from poor families who need the income of a fighting career? That's their ticket to a livelihood. I doubt your typical, educated city kid even in Thailand wants to train like that. If someone is going to be a doctor, a teacher, a pilot, musician, etc., why would they? Unless they are planning to be a pro fighter, or make MA the only occupation in their life.

I believe in a martially-oriented mindset in MA, but there has got to be other considerations as well. Generally speaking, most people take it up to in some way enhance their lives, not let it take over their lives completely. I used to have an all-or-nothing attitude about MA, but now there's other things I love in life too, and I wouldn't continue training anymore if I didn't enjoy it.

I'm generalizing quit a bit here, I know it doesn't pertain to every school, just general trends. I came up in the later '90's in Karate, and I think I had some great teachers that put a real good combat foundation under me. I also saw a lot of bad Karate in my travels as well.

As to the Thai kids, I don't think it's so much a financial thing as a cultural thing. Really very few of them will ever get to fight on tv in Bangkok, there's just so many kids that do it...In the country there's really no money except what they make in gambling. For every one that makes money gambling someone else loses money.

I think they grow up around it, see their family and friends train and they want to do it too. I'm sure a lot of them got dreams of being the next Buakaw, but the majority will never see enough money to justify training over working.

All or nothing mentality is for pro fighters and those who want to be serious teachers. There are a lot of other great things in life.

[jimbob]

I Just hate to see that MMA guys help us to preserve TCMA and not our TCMA guys.

If anyone is going to preserve something that works, it will be the people who understand how, why, when and where it works. Whether or not they acknowledge it as TCMA I don't know - it may well all end up as MMA, but if you're looking at 'just' fighting, is this such a bad thing anyway?

[YouKnowWho]

If anyone is going to preserve something that works, it will be the people who understand how, why, when and where it works. Whether or not they acknowledge it as TCMA I don't know - it may well all end up as MMA, but if you're looking at 'just' fighting, is this such a bad thing anyway?

What I don't like is when you introduce something new, people would say, "My style has that. We do it differently". People may take your idea but won't give you credit. I was as guilt as everybody else on this issue. When my

- MT friend show me his "flying knee", I told him that my longfist system also has that. I did a double jumping kick without kicking out my 2nd leg.
- TKD friend show me his "spin hook kick", I also said that my longfist system has that. I did a 360 degree backward floor sweep.

Many years ago I tried to integrate legs move such as cut, spring, hook, scoop, lift, twist, break, ... into Taiji. My teacher said not only Taiji people won't appreciate my effort, they may even hate me by doing that. I didn't quite understood back then. Now I can understand it better. Sometime "helping" and "smart ass" are hard to be distinguished.

[Robinhood]

What I don't like is when you introduce something new, people would say, "My style has that. We do it differently". People may take your idea but won't give you credit. I was as guilt as everybody else on this issue. When my

- MT friend show me his "flying knee", I told him that my longfist system also has that. I did a double jumping kick without kicking out my 2nd leg.
- TKD friend show me his "spin hook kick", I also said that my longfist system has that. I did a 360 degree backward floor sweep.

Many years ago I tried to integrate legs move such as cut, spring, hook, scoop, lift, twist, break, ... into Taiji. My teacher said not only Taiji people won't appreciate my effort, they may even hate me by doing that. I didn't quite understood back then. Now I can understand it better. Sometime "helping" and "smart ass" are hard to be distinguished.

No-one with any experience is going to give you credit forbody level moves, it is at the higher level you perform at, not the moves per say , that you will get you your credit, doing them at body level can be copied by most people with athletic ability, so most body level moves are meanjng less in the big picture of things.

[YouKnowWho]

What's your definition of "high level" stuff? Are you talking about

- snake engine, or
- 6DFV?

My definition is anything that you can

- use in combat is high level (such as to punch on your opponent's face).
- only talk about and cannot use in combat is low level (such as Wuji, Dazhoutian and meridian flow, ...).

[Syn7]

I'm sure a lot of them got dreams of being the next Buakaw

Speaking of good MT. Love the finish.

http://youtu.be/HFjjpYYAI9U

[YouKnowWho]

Speaking of good MT. Love the finish.

http://youtu.be/HFjjpYYAI9U

I like this clip. If combat is your highest priority, you will develop your front toe kick, roundhouse kick effectively. You don't even need to develop other kicks. Sometime we look back and realize that we have spent so much time to develop many techniques that we don't use in combat. What's a big waste.

[Syn7]

I like this clip. If combat is your highest priority, you will develop your front toe kick, roundhouse kick effectively. You don't even need to develop other kicks. Sometime we look back and realize that we have spent so much time to develop many techniques that we don't use in combat. What's a big waste.

When you get to the higher levels, I find most people study a small set of high percentage maneuvers as opposed to a ton of variety in some effort to come with something new or unexpected. Not that that can't work for you, just not the least path of resistance in meeting your goal of being combat effective. Especially in the ring sports where rule sets make many techniques illigal.

[YouKnowWho]

study a small set of high percentage maneuvers ...

This is the center of the discussion for this thread. If you train for combat, you will spend more training time in front cut (Osoto Gari)

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

than in hip throw (O Goshi).

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

Why? Because even if hip throw is a great tool for "sport". In "combat", you still have more chance to face your opportunity. The front cut can also give you better mobility and end fight faster advantage (if you smash the back of your opponent's head to the hard ground).

[mooyingmantis]

When you get to the higher levels, I find most people study a small set of high percentage maneuvers as opposed to a ton of variety...

The mastery of three to five techniques should be sufficient. It should not take years of training for one to be able to defend them-self. Six months training should be enough for most students to develop self-defense skills.

[YouKnowWho]

Six months training should be enough for most students to develop self-defense skills.

To be able to deal with average Joe may be enough. If your students wrestle/spar 15 rounds and expect 8-7 record (just a bit better than their opponent) is not that hard. If they want to have 15-0 record, It will take much more training time than that. When they only wrestle/spar 3 rounds, it's hard to tell where they are. When they have reached to 15 rounds, their skill level can be easily judged. If your students won't make any mistake in all 15 rounds, they are very good.

[Syn7]

This is the center of the discussion for this thread. If you train for combat, you will spend more training time in front cut (Osoto Gari)

I use that alot. It feels very 'natural' to me. And it still works well even when they know it's coming.


The mastery of three to five techniques should be sufficient. It should not take years of training for one to be able to defend them-self. Six months training should be enough for most students to develop self-defense skills.

I don't believe in mastery. But I hear what you're saying. And I agree with YKW as far as the "average Joe" statement goes.

[Kellen Bassette]

The mastery of three to five techniques should be sufficient. It should not take years of training for one to be able to defend them-self. Six months training should be enough for most students to develop self-defense skills.

I think you should be able to make the competent in this amount of time, capable to fight with their techniques.

[Kellen Bassette]

Speaking of good MT. Love the finish.

http://youtu.be/HFjjpYYAI9U

The dude is a beast. He's a hero over here. I seriously get asked on an almost daily basis if I know/like Buakaw.

[bawang]

The dude is a beast. He's a hero over here. I seriously get asked on an almost daily basis if I know/like Buakaw.

i agree with you. bwakaw is my favorte muay thai fighter to watch. he is living art.

[JamesC]

i agree with you. bwakaw is my favorte muay thai fighter to watch. he is living art.

He is amazing

[Syn7]

The man is a freak android....!!!

[David Jamieson]

You know, it's up to you people who complain that Kung Fu is not combat oriented enough to go out there and get into that aspect of it.

If you guys practice Kung Fu and want that in your Kung Fu, go put it in there.

Instead of every time a post like this pops up it turns into a hand-job for some ufc or non kung fu guy who is going out there and doing what you aren't.

I personally don't have a problem with the fullness of Kung Fu as an art form. But if you do, go out and bust some heads. If you want to fight in a ring, get in one and fight. If you want to use Kung Fu, do that.

It's like a great big wheel that has stopped.

[jimbob]

It's like a great big wheel that has stopped.

My quote of the year thus far! :)

[jimbob]

What I don't like is when you introduce something new, people would say, "My style has that. We do it differently". People may take your idea but won't give you credit.

I think this is fair enough, but at the end of the day, are we really talking about anything more than using 2 arms, 2 legs and a body to get a result?

I know John you've said in the past that you tend not to believe in 'styles' anymore - so how would you ideally see a new concept (or a TCMA) concept being acknowledged by a MMA fighter?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

[Robinhood]

What's your definition of "high level" stuff? Are you talking about

- snake engine, or
- 6DFV?

My definition is anything that you can

- use in combat is high level (such as to punch on your opponent's face).
- only talk about and cannot use in combat is low level (such as Wuji, Dazhoutian and meridian flow, ...).

High level is more along the lines of full integration behind whatever you want to do.

[wenshu]

i agree with you. bwakaw is my favorte muay thai fighter to watch. he is living art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iijaInvi1tU

His boxing is looking good too! He's got some killer technical defense which is counter to the full blast Thai war of attrition style.

[YouKnowWho]

how would you ideally see a new concept (or a TCMA) concept being acknowledged by a MMA fighter?

Interested to hear your thoughts.
Most information are just some small detail. If you know it, there is no big deal about it. If you don't, you may have to search it for a long time.

[18elders]

if you train anything, it is inner peace or you would not do it. if you move, you are helping your health, if you are training to fight, you are making your mind and body strong giving you inner peace in your ability. you have to remember a form, you are strengthening your mind and body, what your inner peace is may not be the same as someone else's.

[Kellen Bassette]

You know, it's up to you people who complain that Kung Fu is not combat oriented enough to go out there and get into that aspect of it.

If you guys practice Kung Fu and want that in your Kung Fu, go put it in there.



Right on man!

[Syn7]

You know, it's up to you people who complain that Kung Fu is not combat oriented enough to go out there and get into that aspect of it.


Many do. It's the delusional flower dancers that keep getting beat up, not the people who do real resistance training and hard sparring.

I don't see any flower dancers here complaining about combat effectiveness. Just those who know better chastising the flower dancers as delusional.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't see anything wrong to talk about "combat" in a Kung Fu forum. What else should we talk about?

- Yin muscles and Yang muscles?
- Wuji or Taiji?
- Dazhoutian and meridian flow?
- Curve or curves?
- Alchemy in your meditation?
- How can you tell that your Zhoutian has been opened?
- Yin and Yang, Water and Fire?
- ...

I just don't see how those discussions can accomplish anything. It's much more fun to talk about:

How to handle your opponent's jab, cross when

- your opponent comes toward you.
- you come toward your opponent.

[Kellen Bassette]

We do seem to go around in circles with this, but there's constantly a new crop of flowers springing up that need to hear it. Most won't listen, but some may and consider training for combat, whether or not they decide to sport fight, or just want to learn real self defense.

It's offensive to those who train for combat to hear things like, TCMA can't work in modern times, or it will only work in a life or death street situation if you don't have a mouth guard or a cup on.

It's absurd. If you don't want to train the real martial aspects that's fine. Admit it to yourself and tell your students, you only like folk dancing and cultivating inner peace. Tell them to go elsewhere to learn the martial side. Don't be a part of propagating the stigma that TCMA is some archaic relic that can never be used in modern times. Some people do train it for combat and don't doubt its' effectiveness on the street or in the ring.

(Not aiming this at anyone in particular, but it's how I feel.)

[bawang]

I don't see anything wrong to talk about "combat" in a Kung Fu forum. What else should we talk about?


talk about what kind of combat has your students participated in and how many medals they won.

[YouKnowWho]

talk about what kind of combat has your students participated in and how many medals they won.

If you can answer the following question, your TCMA skill is high level:

Is there difference between Taiji and Wuji?

[YouKnowWho]

We do seem to go around in circles with this,

When you go to a Taiji forum and ask question such as, "Why do you want to push your opponent away?" They may have never thought about this issue before. The more that you have repeated the same question, the more chance that they may think, "Why this guy keeps asking this question?" One day when someone said, "One should keep his friends close but enemy closer." Everything will suddenly kick in and make sense to them.

To bring "combat" back into TCMA is not an easy task. If we TCMA lovers don't take this task, who else will?

[Golden Arms]

In Pak Mei/White Brow, Short Fist Boxing, and Hung Gar we fight. Those are the arts I know, have learned from a teacher, and practice with some skill. At this point I don't put much thought into any other arts out there, they wrought their own demise as far as I am concerned.

[Robinhood]

I don't see anything wrong to talk about "combat" in a Kung Fu forum. What else should we talk about?

- Yin muscles and Yang muscles?
- Wuji or Taiji?
- Dazhoutian and meridian flow?
- Curve or curves?
- Alchemy in your meditation?
- How can you tell that your Zhoutian has been opened?
- Yin and Yang, Water and Fire?
- ...

I just don't see how those discussions can accomplish anything. It's much more fun to talk about:

How to handle your opponent's jab, cross when

- your opponent comes toward you.
- you come toward your opponent.

In order to have a conversations about something , you need other people with similar experiences, you can not have a conversation if others don't know have similar experences.

If he comes toward you or you to him are only training drills, not real combat , real will depend on the skill of your opponent. To talk about how you can dominate an inexperienced person is meaningless.