Elbow MRI results

[IronFist]

I have grade 3/4 chondromalacia in my left elbow (4 is the worst). Much of the cartilage is gone. Pain comes and goes throughout the day, and sometimes my elbow pops. Sometimes those pops relieve the pain, and sometimes they make it worse.

The doctor doesn't know what caused it because I am in my early 30s and haven't had any traumatic injury to my elbow, nor even a regular injury. What's weird is the pain started during a 9 month break I took from working out :confused:

Most people believe cartilage doesn't regenerate so my goal is to keep it from getting any worse. My doctor said glucosamine, chondroitin, and MSM might help, so I have started taking those.

I think they are testing some stem cell treatments that can regrow cartilage. Hopefully in 5-10 years that will be perfected.

Any advice for dealing with joint issues/supplements/etc. is appreciated. I've also heard type II collagen supplements may help, but it's hard to find info about that kind of thing.

Most of the results I see in Google for chondromalacia are for the knee. I haven't come across any other references of it affecting an elbow.

Pronounced "con-dro-muh-LAY-shee-uh."

[Raipizo]

Sorry to hear about your luck buddy, look here. Really cheap vitamins, been using the place for years now. Also I hear fish oils help lube up the joints.

http://www.puritan.com/joint-support-062?cm_re=AZ-_-J-_-Joint_Support

Personally you might want to try this, get all the pills in one go.

http://www.puritan.com/joint-support-062/triple-strength-glucosamine-chondroitin-msm-joint-soother-017895

I hope the best for you and hopefully in time with vitamins and supplements you can get as close to 100% as possible.

[IronFist]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I'm also taking fish oil.

That site seems to have some good prices. Is that a legit brand?

[Raipizo]

From what I have experienced yeah, I believe they own their own factory, which is why it's so cheap. I've never really had a problem with them, just as with anywhere else though you need to make sure what you're going to use is safe. They even say they purify the fish oil to eliminate mercury. That and I get their vitamin book in the mail, and they have seasonal sales and stuff to help you save more. Like I said I've never really had a problem, but some people have reported bad customer service, others report excellent service. I guess it all depends, see how you like it if you want if not check a local vitamin store. Just trying to help a pal save some $ where ya can. Report back later bud.

[Oso]

boost your vitamin C in addition to the other stuff. the building block for soft tissues.

also, as i understand it, the glucosomine and chondroiten are interdependant (if they have any efficacy at all) so, both + Vit. C and lots and lots of water so there is plenty for those three things to work with

funny, your symptoms sound the same as my left elbow and i've taken damage there multiple times. you sure you never got your elbow popped? could be genetic i guess.

sorry man, best i got. sucks getting old. :o

[Raipizo]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I'm also taking fish oil.

That site seems to have some good prices. Is that a legit brand?

I take their fish oil and I take flax oil, maybe pick up a flax oil. It has different fatty acids than the fish oil

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/flaxseed-oil-000304.htm

[Raipizo]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I'm also taking fish oil.

That site seems to have some good prices. Is that a legit brand?

Oh also I've heard of some stuff called joint juice, not sure how good it works.

[Raipizo]

Also http://www.fitnesshealth101.com/review/nutritional-supplements/puritans-pride

[bawang]

your cartilage is GONE? man that sucks. it just disappear spontanesouly?

[IronWeasel]

Make sure that it is glucosamine sulfate and not the ineffective version: glucosamine hydrochloride.

[IronFist]

Make sure that it is glucosamine sulfate and not the ineffective version: glucosamine hydrochloride.

That's what I got :)

I saw both and did some research to try and find the difference and I saw a few things that said the sulfate version was a bit better, so that's what I got.

IIRC the HCl version is just vegetarian in nature.

[IronFist]

boost your vitamin C in addition to the other stuff. the building block for soft tissues.

Should I take it at the same time?


also, as i understand it, the glucosomine and chondroiten are interdependant (if they have any efficacy at all) so, both + Vit. C and lots and lots of water so there is plenty for those three things to work with

I've been told that Glucosamine and MSM are the two that help the most and Chondroitin is basically optional, but I figured I'd start with all three just in case. I bought them separately in case I had any bad reactions (like my stomach getting upset) so I could isolate them and see which was causing the issue. If I don't have any issues, going forward I will probably buy them together in a single pill because it's a bit cheaper that way.

Chondroitin is the most expensive by itself.


funny, your symptoms sound the same as my left elbow and i've taken damage there multiple times. you sure you never got your elbow popped? could be genetic i guess.

Never.

The only thing I could think of was that I was rehabbing my left shoulder for about 9 months (rotator cuff and biceps tendonitis) and I thought maybe I got something out of alignment and that's why I was having elbow pain, although I doubt doing eccentric exercises with a 5 pound weight and ice massage 3 times a day caused elbow damage :o

I wonder if I had a nutrient lacking from my diet or something.

[kwaichang]

I used to Body build with a man who was 44 at the time he had the same problem as you. He would compete in the Mr Universe over 40 and won it 3-4 times. He would always use 1 Tsp of vinegar with Dolemite a plant source of Calcium and magnesium. along with massive 5000 mg dosage of Vitamin C he lifted heavy and I mean real heavy for example 120 # nose breakers and 70# dumbel curls w/o pain. Tryit cant hurt you. KC:)

[taai gihk yahn]

I have grade 3/4 chondromalacia in my left elbow (4 is the worst). Much of the cartilage is gone. Pain comes and goes throughout the day, and sometimes my elbow pops. Sometimes those pops relieve the pain, and sometimes they make it worse.

The doctor doesn't know what caused it because I am in my early 30s and haven't had any traumatic injury to my elbow, nor even a regular injury. What's weird is the pain started during a 9 month break I took from working out :confused:

Most people believe cartilage doesn't regenerate so my goal is to keep it from getting any worse. My doctor said glucosamine, chondroitin, and MSM might help, so I have started taking those.

I think they are testing some stem cell treatments that can regrow cartilage. Hopefully in 5-10 years that will be perfected.

Any advice for dealing with joint issues/supplements/etc. is appreciated. I've also heard type II collagen supplements may help, but it's hard to find info about that kind of thing.

Most of the results I see in Google for chondromalacia are for the knee. I haven't come across any other references of it affecting an elbow.

Pronounced "con-dro-muh-LAY-shee-uh."
in the absence of trauma, idiopathic degredation at one joint can be due to dysfunction of another joint nearby or even more distant, leading to abnormal tensional / compressional forces at the joint in question; as a general rule, when one or more areas are restricted, other area(s) have to move more to make up for it; it's possible (not saying for certain, as I haven't examined you) that you have some restriction at you shoulder, or rib cage or cervical / thoracic spine proximally or forearm / wrist / hand distally that contributes to the breakdown at the elbow; these are general considerations, it's where I'd start looking if I were to treat you; of course, the issue could be anywhere: lumbars, pelvis, hips, cranium: but usually it's the same region or quarter of the body (by the time an ankle dysfunction gets around to causing u headaches, u have used up pretty much every compensatory mechanism in between, lol);

I'd go find a skiled manual therapist (PT, DO, DC, LMT, Rolfer, Tuina, etc.) who understands how to teat the body as an interrelated structure; they should be treating u both locally at the elbow and more globally as well; this may not grow back ur cartiledge, but u might b surprised how it can help relieve ur symptoms nevertheless...

as far as glucosamine, my question has always been as to how this supplement finds its way through ur digestive system into the offending joint in question with such specificity...my personal experience with patients taking it is that either it doesn't work, or they feel better way to quickly for it not to be placebo effect (which is an excellent method of decreasing systemic inflammation, so it's not that it's not real, it's just a different mechanism...);

good luck

[taai gihk yahn]

I used to Body build with a man who was 44 at the time he had the same problem as you. He would compete in the Mr Universe over 40 and won it 3-4 times. He would always use 1 Tsp of vinegar with Dolemite a plant source of Calcium and magnesium. along with massive 5000 mg dosage of Vitamin C he lifted heavy and I mean real heavy for example 120 # nose breakers and 70# dumbel curls w/o pain. Tryit cant hurt you. KC:)

how do u kno that? for all u kno he may have some sensitivities to the above; regardless, i never have subscribed to the "free lunch" theory; meaning that, in my estimation, if something is strong enough to have a real physiological therapeutic effect, then, if taken inappropriately, it can also be harmful; personally, I wouldn't start taking large doses of any substance without consulting with someone trained (nutritionist, herbalist, whatever works for you) and under their supervision;

[IronFist]

in the absence of trauma, idiopathic degredation at one joint can be due to dysfunction of another joint nearby or even more distant, leading to abnormal tensional / compressional forces at the joint in question;

That sounds kind of along the lines of what I was thinking, ie. it's somehow related to my shoulder issue/rehab.


as far as glucosamine, my question has always been as to how this supplement finds its way through ur digestive system into the offending joint in question with such specificity...my personal experience with patients taking it is that either it doesn't work, or they feel better way to quickly for it not to be placebo effect (which is an excellent method of decreasing systemic inflammation, so it's not that it's not real, it's just a different mechanism...);


I've heard all sorts of stuff like that. I can tell you though that our last dog had arthritis, and my mom started giving her a glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM pill on the recommendation of our vet, and my mom said that there was a big improvement in her mobility. Animals don't get a placebo effect.

One more question for you:

I got a massage a few days ago and ever since I've been having tingling in my left hand throughout the day. It's mostly in my pinky and ring finger (ulnar nerve) but also occasionally in the others/thumb.

About a year ago I had some symptoms of ulnar nerve entrapment that would randomly come and go, but for the most part they went away after a few weeks of doing nerve glide exercises throughout the day and taking vitamin B. I hadn't really thought about it much since then until it started back up the other day.

Did the masseuse do something wrong or is this somehow related to my elbow? I read that arthritis in the elbow can increase your chances of having nerve issues.

[Oso]

what about the vit. C? it's a major building block for collogen (sp?) right?

[bawang]

do u warm up ur joints beforer training bro? u ever take anti inflammatories?

[kwaichang]

Whats your problem man I simply told him whats worked for this other man , Magnesium and Calcium are harmless Minerals found in every day foods, Vit C is water soluble and Vinegar is used in many homeopathic remedies, it changes PH balance. There is more to this world than just PT, broaden your horizons, we all want each other to be healthy , just cause you may not know something dont try to discredit others for what they know. Or make people look stupid, that is unprofessional and not Cool at that.

Iron Fist Look up Cartilage Reconditioning and restoration by Corley and Kelsey in Austin Texas they are PT's who have worked with a # of athletes in Austin and were able to help alot with this type of thing Jeez. KC

[IronFist]

what about the vit. C? it's a major building block for collogen (sp?) right?

Yeah man, in post 12 I replied to you and asked if I should take it at the same time as the other stuff :)


do u warm up ur joints beforer training bro? u ever take anti inflammatories?

Yeah I warm up. I always start with a few lighter sets before I get to the work sets.

As for anti inflammatories, I don't really take NSAIDs that much cuz I have some IBS type issues. Plus, most of what I've read about NSAIDs suggest that while they eliminate pain in the short term, they prevent things from healing as well as they would have otherwise.

As for anti inflammatory food, I take fish oil, I eat spicy food a few times a week (I cut up jalepeno and serrano peppers and eat them on crackers with cheese), and I put lots of fresh garlic on stuff (fresh garlic I just cut up, not store bought garlic powder or diced garlic).

I've tried a few other "anti-inflammatory" things. Bromelain didn't make any noticeable difference and at higher doses gave me heart palpitations. Curcumin upset my stomach even at low doses, and it can have some other side effects that made me not really want to take it.

I take ginger a few times a week but that's mostly when I'm having stomach issues. I haven't noticed any anti-inflammatory effects.

I'm open to other anti-inflammatory suggestions.

[Raipizo]

http://www.hughston.com/hha/a_12_4_2.htm

[Raipizo]

Maybe look into tumeric for anti inflammatory.

[taai gihk yahn]

Whats your problem man I simply told him whats worked for this other man

yes, but then you stated: "Try it can't hurt you." I asked you how u could possibly make that claim with any validity; which, of course, you can't

it's not about me broadening my horizons, it's about you improving your reading comprehension, which SUCKS - EVERY time I respond to you about something, you get it WRONG, because you just DON'T READ WHAT I WRITE; this is why I have basically no respect for you, your discipline in argument is sloppy as hell, you misconstrue what I (and others) say all the time, and you lack any semblance of critical analysis when you respond; I understand that English isn't your primary language (at least, my Lord, I HOPE it isn't), which is fine, but then I would suggest you work a little harder to get what someone writes before you draw incorrect conclusions;

and if you were actually paying attention, you'd notice that I don't critique the supplements themselves: for all we know, they may work; what i took issue with was how you recommended them with your "it's all good" attitude; I suggested he enlist the services of a professional trained in supplementation as opposed to just trying out something because someone online said it was a good idea; let me ask you, which approach seems more REASONABLE?

so "jeez" right back atcha

[taai gihk yahn]

One more question for you:

I got a massage a few days ago and ever since I've been having tingling in my left hand throughout the day. It's mostly in my pinky and ring finger (ulnar nerve) but also occasionally in the others/thumb.

About a year ago I had some symptoms of ulnar nerve entrapment that would randomly come and go, but for the most part they went away after a few weeks of doing nerve glide exercises throughout the day and taking vitamin B. I hadn't really thought about it much since then until it started back up the other day.

Did the masseuse do something wrong or is this somehow related to my elbow? I read that arthritis in the elbow can increase your chances of having nerve issues.

I have no idea; it's entirely possible that the LMT irritated something ( logically if the LMT did something u would have felt it when he did it;), it's just as possible that being face down on the table irritated something in the neck / shoulder / arm (esp if you got up from the table and felt the symptoms immediately); it's equally possible that it has nothing to do with it, that maybe afterwards when u had more extensibility of ur tissues due to the work, and u did something urself that caused the irritation;

who knows? impossible to say without (again) examining u;

[taai gihk yahn]

That sounds kind of along the lines of what I was thinking, ie. it's somehow related to my shoulder issue/rehab.
in my personal experience this is not uncommon - again, wud hav to look at u to be able to say anything definitive;


Animals don't get a placebo effect.
I've wondered about that for some time; don't they? animals are very sensitive to owner's mood - if the owner gives the pet a medicine that makes the owner feel better about having done so, I wouldn't discount the pet picking up on that and having a "placebo" effect occur as a result (owner happier = pet happier)...

[bawang]

if you are desperate for recovery i would suggest getting some hgh.

[IronFist]

http://www.hughston.com/hha/a_12_4_2.htm


Cartilage-producing cells can be cultured in a laboratory and placed into a hole in the cartilage. These cells then stimulate the growth of cartilage, filling the hole in some cases.

o rly?

Wait is that the stem cell thing?

[IronFist]

Maybe look into tumeric for anti inflammatory.

Turmeric upsets my stomach, too.

That's what they get curcumin from. I think curcumin is the active thing in turmeric.

[IronFist]

Iron Fist Look up Cartilage Reconditioning and restoration by Corley and Kelsey in Austin Texas they are PT's who have worked with a # of athletes in Austin and were able to help alot with this type of thing Jeez. KC

Do you have a link? When I Googled that all I got was this thread :D

edit - think I found it.

[kwaichang]

I may be a Nutritionist as well as PT for all you know, I wouldnt suggest something If I thought the guy was a Moron and didnt do his own research which he is. There are few if any allergic reactions to Minerals and none to Vitamin C That I have found research on . Vinegar maybe but very unlikely. I appologize but your critique of my English is rude and uncalled for. We have 2 different views of this problem and that in my opinion is a good thing. But to be overly critical is a fault in my opinion and slows learning. Any way Iron Fist look the number up of Corley and Kelsey and mention the name Doug Feick pronounced FIKE They may just tell you something over the phone that might help. KC

[Oso]

Yeah man, in post 12 I replied to you and asked if I should take it at the same time as the other stuff :)



lol, i know. i was mostly aiming to get TGY's .02 on the Vit. C aspect of soft tissue repair.

as far as when, idk. since it leaves the body fairly quickly i'd try to have a source of it w/ every meal???

[IronFist]

I may be a Nutritionist as well as PT for all you know, I wouldnt suggest something If I thought the guy was a Moron and didnt do his own research which he is. There are few if any allergic reactions to Minerals and none to Vitamin C That I have found research on . Vinegar maybe but very unlikely. I appologize but your critique of my English is rude and uncalled for. We have 2 different views of this problem and that in my opinion is a good thing. But to be overly critical is a fault in my opinion and slows learning.

Hope that wasn't aimed at me (your post was titled "Iron Fist").


Any way Iron Fist look the number up of Corley and Kelsey and mention the name Doug Feick pronounced FIKE They may just tell you something over the phone that might help. KC

Will do, thanks!

[taai gihk yahn]

Iron Fist

I may be a Nutritionist as well as PT for all you know, I wouldnt suggest something If I thought the guy was a Moron and didnt do his own research which he is. There are few if any allergic reactions to Minerals and none to Vitamin C That I have found research on . Vinegar maybe but very unlikely. I appologize but your critique of my English is rude and uncalled for. We have 2 different views of this problem and that in my opinion is a good thing. But to be overly critical is a fault in my opinion and slows learning. Any way Iron Fist look the number up of Corley and Kelsey and mention the name Doug Feick pronounced FIKE They may just tell you something over the phone that might help. KC


Hope that wasn't aimed at me (your post was titled "Iron Fist").

oh no, my critique regarding your capacity for accurate written communication isn't at all salient...:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good luck with the supplements.
Personally I have tried them all in various forms and dosages over the last few years because of my shoulder and knees issues and none have made any noticeable difference.
I hope you can get some benefit from them.

[IronFist]

oh no, my critique regarding your capacity for accurate written communication isn't at all salient...:rolleyes:

Wait, I asked a question about something kwaichang wrote and you replied using "I"?

Either joke is on me or I'm super confused :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wait, I asked a question about something kwaichang wrote and you replied using "I"?

Either joke is on me or I'm super confused :confused:

Taai was being sarcastic VS Lee since Lee attributed to YOU his post that was suppose to be towards Taai.

[taai gihk yahn]

Good luck with the supplements.
Personally I have tried them all in various forms and dosages over the last few years because of my shoulder and knees issues and none have made any noticeable difference.
I hope you can get some benefit from them.
your personal experience would correlate with all extant valid and reliable research regarding the issue; as I said before, patients of mine who have taken glucosamine have noted almost immediate improvement in their joint symptoms, without realizing that there's no way there could have been cartilage replacement in such a short time...


Taai was being sarcastic VS Lee since Lee attributed to YOU his post that was suppose to be towards Taai.

the correct by Ronin, qi blasted it is

[IronWeasel]

your personal experience would correlate with all extant valid and reliable research regarding the issue; as I said before, patients of mine who have taken glucosamine have noted almost immediate improvement in their joint symptoms, without realizing that there's no way there could have been cartilage replacement in such a short time...



the correct by Ronin, qi blasted it is



I've read that glucosamine sulfate triggers an anti-inflammatory mechanism upon initial transport into the bursae.

[kwaichang]

I have read it works but the blood supply to cartilage is poor so the mechanism of pain relief has to be another way in the short run, in the Long run Cartilage regeneration is possible with the use of low load long duration activities. , for knees the use of a Total Gym at low levels with closed chain activities has shown to promote cartilage regeneration and growth. This is a long duration in Rx. Glucosamine more than likely promotes the expulsion of Viscous fluids of the injured / inflamed joint. Replacing thim with nutrient rich fluids. From what I have read so this promotes decreased pain and cartilage rejuvination. KC

[IronFist]

I found a collagen supplement that has supposedly been shown to regenerate cartilage, and supposedly they have before/after MRIs to show that it works :confused:

It's called "Fortigel" and contains collagen hydrolyzate. I'm trying to figure out if that's the same thing as Jello.

http://www.fortigel.com/en/fortigel/scientific-proof.html
http://flexeze.co.uk/flexeze-fortify_supporting-research.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/collagensupplements.html

I saw it in some products on UK websites, but the only thing I found in the US is made by Swanson and is called "Joint Health Drink Mix with Fortigel" and is $20 for 30 servings, 10g each, so that's not a bad price if it actually works.

I had heard that cartilage cannot be regrown (without stem cells).

[IronFist]

I may be a Nutritionist as well as PT for all you know, I wouldnt suggest something If I thought the guy was a Moron and didnt do his own research which he is. There are few if any allergic reactions to Minerals and none to Vitamin C That I have found research on . Vinegar maybe but very unlikely. I appologize but your critique of my English is rude and uncalled for. We have 2 different views of this problem and that in my opinion is a good thing. But to be overly critical is a fault in my opinion and slows learning. Any way Iron Fist look the number up of Corley and Kelsey and mention the name Doug Feick pronounced FIKE They may just tell you something over the phone that might help. KC

I emailed him. He suggested a prolotherapy doctor.

Anyone know anything about that? It seems to be mentioned a lot online but I can't find any info about it other than doctors offering it or people joining forums to say "holy cow it cured me when nothing else did" and never posting again.

I would like to learn more.

[kwaichang]

a very safe modality that uses sterile Glucose laden H2O that causes a localized inflammatory response that promotes the production of cellular healing components in the area. Very effective for ligament , labral tears etc. as well as knee and tendon problems helps with stability of SI joints. There is a good one in Nashville named Johnson and a good one in Austin as well , I cant remember his name. Call them and see what they think PM me ur phone # I can talk better than I can type KC

[IronFist]

I understand the theory, I just want to know if actually works or if it's like, you know, color light therapy or whatever (where they shine different colored light bulbs on you and it cures you).

My tendons and ligaments are fine. Does it work on cartilage? What if there isn't much cartilage left?

The place by me in Chicago can add platelet rich plasma or stem cells to the prolotherapy (increases the cost). Can regular prolotherapy regenerate cartilage or are stem cells required?

[kwaichang]

It may work there are some studies promoting the use of stem cells with it but I am still out on that one. I do know it is not Voodoo , and works. KC

[kwaichang]

There is a possibility that your capsule or tendons or ligaments are what is causing the pain , many people have artritis and have no pain, and often there are young people with arthritis that have no pain. Therefore it may not be the joint itself that is causing the pain. Just a thought. KC