Let's be Realistic About Grappling

[MightyB]

I think it's time to be realistic about grappling.

IMO

What does Grappling training do? Well, I think that it does an excellent job in conditioning someone to fight and it gives you some very good non-lethal options to use in "self defense" situations.

What Grappling training doesn't do? It does not replace all other forms of self defense. It doesn't make you invincible. It isn't the ultimate solution to a complex problem which is self defense.

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Thoughts, Comments?

[mawali]

People will always grab you so that't it. Continued grabbing is an opportunity since I know of no one who won an encounter without putting hands on the Other.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grappling training allows you to deal with situations in which striking is NOT the best option.

[Orion Paximus]

Grappling does not allow for multiple opponents nor escape.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grappling does not allow for multiple opponents nor escape.

Yes it does.
We trained that in Judo and BJJ.

[Robinhood]

I think it's time to be realistic about grappling.

IMO

What does Grappling training do? Well, I think that it does an excellent job in conditioning someone to fight and it gives you some very good non-lethal options to use in "self defense" situations.

What Grappling training doesn't do? It does not replace all other forms of self defense. It doesn't make you invincible. It isn't the ultimate solution to a complex problem which is self defense.

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Thoughts, Comments?

It is a way of trainjng , that allows you to train without hurting each other. If you always hurt someone every time they made a mistake, everyone would be hurt and you wouldn't have anyone left to play with and have fun .

That is why in push hands you push instead of hit, it is called trainjng.

[maxattck]

Just a comment on the conditioning in grappling. I train bjj (just got my purple belt, yah me)and one thing I notice is everyone is in excelent shape. When I was training a forms only school (wing chun), and even the CFL school I trained in there was a lot of students who where out of shape or even fat. With high ranking. I have never seen this in any grappling school

[Jimbo]

There are instances where a properly-applied choke can stop someone who, due to drugs or whatever, are impervious to pain. IF you can get in to apply it.

Injuries, sometimes serious, can and do happen in training, and not just due to lack of control. You must be constantly aware of every part of your body, or your opponent and you can roll over a joint at a bad angle.

Grappling, or at least a good awareness of it, is an important tool for a MAist.

[YouKnowWho]

My SC teacher got into a fight in Taipei theatre office. He had to deal with many guys in a small space. He didn't use any of his grappling skill. He only used his elbow striking.

He also got into a fight in Shanghai bus station. He got a chair and used it to knock down his opponents one by one when they came downstair to get him.

When you have to deal with many opponents, grappling will not be the best choice. Even kick and punch may not be the best choice. If you want to drop your opponents ASAP, nothing will be better than a sharp elbow striking at your opponent's heart area, or anything that you can find to use it to smash on top of your opponent's head.

"Quick finish" is the key when you have to deal with multiple opponents. If my grappling teacher didn't use his grappling skill in both fights, it will be hard to argue that grappling can be any effective in group fight.

Even the most powerful head lock on earth, it will still take more than 1 second to give your opponent some headache. Sometime you just don't have that 1 second.

[GeneChing]

With the orgs that I volunteer for, we aren't permitted to hit or even to use pain-inducing locks. It's all soft grappling. I use what little I remember from my first martial art (judo (http://www.martialartsmart.com/judo-jujitsu-styles.html)) and some modified Shaolin qinna (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=937). It's worked well for me for a quarter century now.


it gives you some very good non-lethal options to use in "self defense" situations. Exactly how many lethal fights do you get into, MightyB? Wait, wait, don't tell me. I don't really want to know. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

It is important to know and use the right skill for the right circumstance.

Sometimes it is running away, sometimes it is talking, sometimes it is singing a song and dancing a jig!:D

[taai gihk yahn]

Sometimes it is running away, sometimes it is talking, sometimes it is singing a song and dancing a jig!:D
and sometimes it's about defeating someone just like that! <snap>

http://www.basilrathbone.net/films/courtjester/cj26a.jpg

[Scott R. Brown]

and sometimes it's about defeating someone just like that! <snap>

http://www.basilrathbone.net/films/courtjester/cj26a.jpg

I've got my daughter singing that song! She loves it! :)

[Drake]

It would be stupid to omit grappling from your arsenal for no other reason than stubbornness.

[Scott R. Brown]

It would be stupid to omit grappling from your arsenal for no other reason than stubbornness.

The same could be said of fencing, knife fighting, gun training, learning argumentation (after all, apparently the pen is mightier than the sword!), baseball bat-jutsu, etc.

And don't forget light sabers!

[YouKnowWho]

The word grappling can mean the following:

- stand up throw (raise your opponent's gravity center and low it),
- stand up take down (low your opponent's gravity center),
- stand up lock,
- ground game.

It's not as simple as just to use "pull guard" to "drag" your opponent down and then play the ground game.

[Frost]

The word grappling can mean the following:

- stand up throw (raise your opponent's gravity center and low it),
- stand up take down (low your opponent's gravity center),
- stand up lock,
- ground game.

It's not as simple as just to use "pull guard" to "drag" your opponent down and then play the ground game.

umm when has anyone here ever said it was just about ground game or pulling guard?
Likewise when has anyone here who actually grapples made any of the claims the thread starter talks about?

[Robinhood]

umm when has anyone here ever said it was just about ground game or pulling guard?
Likewise when has anyone here who actually grapples made any of the claims the thread starter talks about?

I think YKW is referring to MMA sport fighting.

[pazman]

umm when has anyone here ever said it was just about ground game or pulling guard?
Likewise when has anyone here who actually grapples made any of the claims the thread starter talks about?

He's talking about some kung fu people who watched a few UFC matches from 1990s and now they know what bjj is all about.

[MightyB]

Here's another truism for ya...

Not all "grapplers" are good at grappling. And this seems to be regardless of time in training at BJJ or MMA gyms. The level seems to be all over the place - but on majority, most practitioners aren't all that good. Some are very good - but odds are, if you run into a grappler - they aren't going to be super men.

Here's a little tidbit from Judo - Always Be Attacking. As soon as you begin - initiate a simple practiced attack. Most people (talking about us amateurs and want-to-be's including myself in this category) in the uniformed grappling arts are hesitant to attack - don't know why, but it's just the way it is. My preference is to, on first contact, is a foot sweep, something like Harai Tsurikomi Ashi if you're into Judo. Anyway - even if it misses, it F**ks their game plan and makes them really hesitant to do anything because now they're always worried about what you're going to do and forget to think about what they should be doing to you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am not a grappler, regardless of my judo BB and my training in MMA and BJJ, it is not what I prefer to do.
I grapple to counter grappling and grapple after I have softened someone up with strikes BUT I do not use grappling as the "first choice".

[MightyB]

I am not a grappler, regardless of my judo BB and my training in MMA and BJJ, it is not what I prefer to do.
I grapple to counter grappling and grapple after I have softened someone up with strikes BUT I do not use grappling as the "first choice".

I'm with ya on this. I don't like to grapple too much, I'll go for a quick sub if it's there, but for the most part, I prefer Judo over BJJ because I do enjoy throwing people.

I'm just not into the excessive dry humping of dudes that's inherent in BJJ. From what I've seen, Sambo would be something that I'd probably enjoy because it's basically Judo with cool leg locks.

I see BJJ practice as a necessary evil that I endure so I can always get up and throw, quick sub if it's there, escape if I have to - But my mentality is to always get back up to my feet and to keep from being held down. The counter sub work is great in BJJ and more advanced than Judo.

[No_Know]

It is a way of trainjng , that allows you to train without hurting each other. If you always hurt someone every time they made a mistake, everyone would be hurt and you wouldn't have anyone left to play with and have fun .

That is why in push hands you push instead of hit, it is called trainjng.

I've seen from video clips people exceeding pushing and hitting touch to shove...But I quoted this to respond to the people getting hurt and wouldn't have anyone left...I'd like to pose the paraphrase that if you always hurt someone everytime they made a mistake~people might make less mistakes (more often).

No_Know.

Further, to the first of this quote What it is...People theoretically might have gotten sore muscles from the rough contact (at least). Articulations fail. The Greeks wrestled nude. Fail your technique-lose your virginity[speculation]. It's good for not killing pugs you friggin' dislike but keeping them off until you can get away or messing someone-over who you want to put the fear of Sod in them...Cardiovascular, Conditioning, Endurance, Awareness, Strength, Speed, Deftness..But Hurt happens in a ground game 'ceptin when they're wanting you to come back to class or at least pay for the passed month. Or they're a relative of your significant other and you don't get any but an earfull if so-and-so gets hurt. Stuff like that and the such.

No_Know

[YouKnowWho]

are hesitant to attack ...

Because you may expect your attack should always work. If it doesn't work, you may feel bad. If you don't always expect your attack to work. Just allow your attack to force your opponent to respond. You then take advantage on his respond.

A XingYi master will say, "Even if you don't know what to do, you just move around. During your moving around, you then find opportunity to attack".

A SC master will say, "Even if you don't think your attack will work. During your attacking, you then find opportunity for other attacking".

When you attack, most of the time your opponent will resist (only experienced opponent may yield), you then borrow his resistence (or yielding) and attack him in the opposite direction (or the same direction again). This is why all the throwing and locking skill should always be learned in pairs with opposite directions (or both in the same direction).

[YouKnowWho]

foot sweep, ...

Foot sweep is great tool. If you can sweep your opponent's leg to force his legs to be cross each other, he can't kick you at that particular moment. Unfortunately a good foot sweep is hard to develop because the timing is so critical. The best way to develop your foot sweep is to start from

1. shin bite,
2. scoop kick,
3. sticky kick, and then
4. foot sweep.

This way, your foot sweep can be executed in both soft and hard way. It will be difficult for your opponent to get away.

[Bacon]

What kind of training do you do where your partners allow you to bite their shins :confused:. Doesn't sound like grappling to me.

[YouKnowWho]

What kind of training do you do where your partners allow you to bite their shins :confused:. Doesn't sound like grappling to me.

The "shin bite" is to use your shin bone to bite into your opponent's leg to force his leg to bend.

[Bacon]

The "shin bite" is to use your shin bone to bite into your opponent's leg to force his leg to bend.

Your shin has teeth :confused:

[YouKnowWho]

Your shin has teeth :confused:

TCMA calls this technique "咬(Yao) - bite".

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8964/biteq.jpg

[Bacon]

So it's a sweep/trip using the instep on the Achilles' of the calf.