Straight punch vs. circular punch

[YouKnowWho]

In Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. As long as your opponent's spear head is not moving toward your chest, you don't care where it may go. Your spear just lead your opponent's spear "into the emptiness".

When your opponent uses jab or cross to punch at your head, your 45 degree downward "haymaker punch" can not only knock his punch out of his striking path, it may even knock his body off balance too. Even if your opponent may attack you first, your counter can reverse the situation 180 degree.

Is "straight punch" truly that effective? What's your opinion on this?

[Syn7]

In Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. As long as your opponent's spear head is not moving toward your chest, you don't care where it may go. Your spear just lead your opponent's spear "into the emptiness".

When your opponent uses jab or cross to punch at your head, your 45 degree downward "haymaker punch" can not only knock his punch out of his striking path, it may even knock his body off balance too. Even if your opponent may attack you first, your counter can reverse the situation 180 degree.

Is "straight punch" truly that effective? What's your opinion on this?

Typical boxing... Use the lead jab to range out and set up and circle outside the lead hand. If he's right handed, you step around his left to your right. Jab Jab Bang. It's like one of the first things you learn after the very basics Like how to stand and learn diff punches etc. And for the record, YKW, a good jab can do wonders for you. A stiff one can even KO your opponent. You can really pick people apart like that.

[hskwarrior]

Is "straight punch" truly that effective? What's your opinion on this?

since all have a time n place they are all effective. its also about how n when

[mooyingmantis]

Even if your opponent may attack you first, your counter can reverse the situation 180 degree.

It would be a very rare occasion in which a hook as a counter-punch could beat an unanticipated jab.

Any trained fighter should be able to throw two to three consecutive jabs in less than a second, which is much harder to do with hook punches.

And as Syn7 stated, a good jab can be all it takes to KO the enemy.

[Shaolin]

In Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack.

There is no best way, all ways are opinionated and are not without flaws.


Is "straight punch" truly that effective? What's your opinion on this?

The straight is very effective. Here's some of the best.

http://youtu.be/IBnBcGst5CI

[Drake]

I am frequently attacked with spears.

[YouKnowWho]

The nice thing about haymaker punch is if you use stealing step and spin your body with it, you can move your body out of your opponent's striking path, your full body spinning can generate a lot of power to knock your opponent off balance. Not only you can connect it with head lock, if your opponent dodges under your haymaker punch, you can reverse it and get your opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine). This is the "water" strategy. You spin with your opponent's attack. To be able to spin your body along with your opponent's punch is a very important skill in the throwing art.

[Syn7]

Yeah but you can get KO'd that way if they follow along and beat you to it with a stiff jab which takes the **** out of your haymaker. I'm just sayin, it happens. Not that I don't love a nice wide looping punch. I like all the tools in my bag. Some I use more than others, but they are all useful at some point.

[Kellen Bassette]

Yeah but you can get KO'd that way if they follow along and beat you to it with a stiff jab which takes the **** out of your haymaker. I'm just sayin, it happens. Not that I don't love a nice wide looping punch. I like all the tools in my bag. Some I use more than others, but they are all useful at some point.

Yeah it can be pretty easy to just throw a jab when someone throws a haymaker..but if they start it with the back fist swinging with the opposite hand, (like you see in southern styles) it closes the gap and flows a lot better.

I always have the best luck landing jabs and a regular backfist...they just seem to be the easiest for me to connect with...I try to work a haymaker, (with technique), but I never feel like it has any strength when I throw it on the heavy bag, nothing like a clean hook. It may just be the angle doesn't lend itself well to hitting a regular heavy bag, (like with an upper cut), but it always leaves me feeling skeptical.

[mooyingmantis]

The nice thing about haymaker punch is if you use stealing step and spin your body with it, you can move your body out of your opponent's striking path, your full body spinning can generate a lot of power to knock your opponent off balance. Not only you can connect it with head lock, if your opponent dodges under your haymaker punch, you can reverse it and get your opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine). This is the "water" strategy. You spin with your opponent's attack. To be able to spin your body along with your opponent's punch is a very important skill in the throwing art.

This is a good strategy.

It works well against martial artists who have the habit of keeping their arm extended after a punch (a definite "no-no"), or grapplers who are reaching.

However, quick jabs from mature fighters do not lend themselves well to that type of strategy.

[Frost]

both are useful and both should be in your arsenal,

By and large hooks and overhands have more power and more ability to hurt of a single shot so in situations where you dont have the time to set things up in a nice combination: like a street fight or MMA fight where one side is looking to close the gap quickly hooks and overhands can be very useful

But they need setting up correctly and you need a tight guard when using them but dont all attacks lol

look at jim millers last ufc fight for a good example of how powerful hooks and overhands can destroy a straight puncher and really put you on the defensive

[Shaolin]

if your opponent dodges under your haymaker punch, you can reverse it and get your opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine).

I call b.s. This sounds like something out of a movie. If your opponent slips or bob and weave's your over hand you have no guillotine. There's not enough time for you to change the direction of your swing before your opponent either A. moves B. owns your kidney and liver or C. counters with a 3, 2 combination followed by a round kick to your nose

[Robinhood]

In Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. As long as your opponent's spear head is not moving toward your chest, you don't care where it may go. Your spear just lead your opponent's spear "into the emptiness".

When your opponent uses jab or cross to punch at your head, your 45 degree downward "haymaker punch" can not only knock his punch out of his striking path, it may even knock his body off balance too. Even if your opponent may attack you first, your counter can reverse the situation 180 degree.

Is "straight punch" truly that effective? What's your opinion on this?

You always seem to only talk about basic novice mechanics, their are so many variables of what makes something work or not work it is stupid to argue them, anything can work if one person is better at adjustment than the other person.

Have all the tools, and try to use the correct tool for the job.

[Bacon]

You always seem to only talk about basic novice mechanics, their are so many variables of what makes something work or not work it is stupid to argue them, anything can work if one person is better at adjustment than the other person.

Have all the tools, and try to use the correct tool for the job.

That and the ridiculous comparisons between things that have no relation. Spear fighting is not empty handed fighting. Blade fighting is not empty handed fighting. Each has their own special mechanics.

[Syn7]

You always seem to only talk about basic novice mechanics, their are so many variables of what makes something work or not work it is stupid to argue them, anything can work if one person is better at adjustment than the other person.

Have all the tools, and try to use the correct tool for the job.

I understand exactly what he's doing. He's been doing MA's for a long time. He has reached a point in his life where has started reverse engineering and reassessing basic mechanics on a deeper level.

[Syn7]

That and the ridiculous comparisons between things that have no relation. Spear fighting is not empty handed fighting. Blade fighting is not empty handed fighting. Each has their own special mechanics.

Maybe, but the same laws of physics apply to both. A straight thing moving forward is a straight thing moving forward.

[mooyingmantis]

I understand exactly what he's doing. He's been doing MA's for a long time. He has reached a point in his life where has started reverse engineering and reassessing basic mechanics on a deeper level.

Agreed!

I wouldn't underestimate John Wang. :)

[Syn7]

I wouldn't underestimate John Wang. :)

Agreed. And rather than criticizing the way he describes what he is thinking, I suggest people take note. And if his analogies don't make sense to you, like maybe you don't know spear as well as he does, come up with your own and discuss them here in order to find some consensus for a bridge in order to create a solid base to build from in the discussion. Personally, I love how John is taking it back like this. It tells me he doesn't rest on his laurels and is always trying to grow and build. That he is never self satisfied, never feeling like he can't rework his stuff. IMO that should be a continuous state. As soon as you believe you are in a place where you don't need to question your stuff, you are putting yourself in a loosing position. Never stop growing. Static is dangerous.

[mawali]

My questions would be:
1. Is one a puncher or a grappler?
2. Is this offensive or defensive? perhaps both?
3. Are the feet involved? Obviously one is standing but is utility /function in tripping, trapping, hand/foot coordination
4. Is one seizing, punching, blocking/parrying, etc
5. How fas can one run? other than dodging bullets!
6. Is one grappling?

I hate to go" fortune cookie" on you but the straight is crooked and the crooked is straight:D

[EarthDragon]

IMHO John Wang is one of the sites most respected Martial artists and posters on this board. Through his humble questions he has more knowledge and time in MA then most of you have been alive and I have 31 years and hes got me beat by far.

Do not judge peoples skills by their posts, judge them by their knowledge of said posts or cross hands. I find his involvement on here refreshing and his way of drawing opinions and comments from all of you will continue to shed new light and keep the forum posting every day with things that I might not have thought about and skipped over taking many things for granted when you learn for many years.

If members like John wasn't here asking these questions we would be back to posting pics of girl in bikinis and no where near the frequency of posts ... Keep the questions coming John, no matter how much you learn it always goes back to the basics............

[-N-]

If members like John wasn't here asking these questions we would be back to posting pics of girl in bikinis ...

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[-N-]

YKW is just being a polite troll.

Effectiveness is not about any individual technique.

Next, someone will ask if single leg stance is effective.

I think YKW is bored :)

[YouKnowWho]

I think YKW is bored :)

After you have retired, when someone tells you that to "watch the blue sky and white cloud" can still be a full time job, don't believe him. :(

[-N-]

After you have retired, when someone tells you that to "watch the blue sky and white cloud" can still be a full time job, don't believe him. :(

Haha. Planning to retire in 5 years, if not sooner.

I have way too much stuff I want to do for me ever to get bored :)

[Robinhood]

I understand exactly what he's doing. He's been doing MA's for a long time. He has reached a point in his life where has started reverse engineering and reassessing basic mechanics on a deeper level.


I am waiting for the deeper level, I think he is bored and trying to get something going so he has something to do, he needs to look deeper for sure. But staying at body level mechanics is not looking deeper.

[Syn7]

I am waiting for the deeper level, I think he is bored and trying to get something going so he has something to do, he needs to look deeper for sure. But staying at body level mechanics is not looking deeper.

Sometimes, after many years of study, one needs to backtrack and rework the basics to make new branches of knowledge for yourself. This happens with anything. Physics, for example. You learn "A force is a push or a pull" the first day and over time you learn things like thermodynamics, nuclear mechanics, **** gets deep, quantum mechanics, general relativity, they go right back to the basics and rather than get convoluted and stuffed up, they seek the simplest truths. The very basics of the basics. The beginnings. The structure and connection from alpha to omega. By doing this, they contemplate the very nature of everything. To do this in MA's means you have put in a lot of time and are seeking new ways of thinking in order to continue expanding and growing as a martial artist.

This is something everyone should understand. When something is unnecessarily complicated, it's a lie. A coverup of sorts. When something complicated is broken down and simplified, that is true genius. Maybe you just aren't there yet and haven't seen anything through in your life to such an extent. Some never do, and it's sad. But hopefully, eventually, this truth reveals itself to you.

[Bacon]

Maybe so Syn but sometimes YKW as such ridiculously oversimplified questions that it seems he is either trolling, an idiot, or is playing with a short deck.

[Syn7]

Maybe so Syn but sometimes YKW as such ridiculously oversimplified questions that it seems he is either trolling, an idiot, or is playing with a short deck.

Nah, I think he just has a lot of time on his hands and has decided to rework his ****. I mos def don't think he's purposely trying to seem obtuse for some weird agenda. I think he has thoughts and throws them out there just to see where they go. As a B-Boy, I got to a point where flying around the room lost it's luster and I went back and re-worked the basics, came up with whole new styles. Stuff a true B-Boy would see and totally understand, but wouldn't get that crazy crowd reaction like a simple airflare will.

I dunno, I get it. Maybe he's crazy, but then that means I am too. But then neither of my personalities likes that idea!

If you dig through the earth, pass the center and keep digging, are you still getting deeper? Nothing in life is a straight line. Linear thought is just a mechanism. Everything comes full circle, so to speak.

[Robinhood]

Maybe so Syn but sometimes YKW as such ridiculously oversimplified questions that it seems he is either trolling, an idiot, or is playing with a short deck.


I think more along the lines of a little of each.

Like the saying, a punch is like a punch, and a kick is like a kick, but when you are a novice it was different, you need to move ahead and not dwell on the piece : i.e. , punch, kick , step ect.

[YouKnowWho]

Maybe so Syn but sometimes YKW as such ridiculously oversimplified questions that it seems he is either trolling, an idiot, or is playing with a short deck.
I do like to make thing simple. I have always believed that if you

- don't let your opponent to put weight on his leading leg, he can't punch you.
- have a good front kick, you can use it to stop all the incoming punches.
- can get your opponent a head lock, where his head goes, his body will follow.
- ...

When your opponent suddently just jumps out of a dark alley, comes at you with full force, and tries to knock your head off. What will be your first response at that particular moment?

If you move back, your opponent's forward momentum can run you down. If you don't want to back up, you have to fight on your ground. To spin your body with your punch is one of the best solutions for that situation. If your opponent charges in fast enough, your haymaker punch can even hit on the back of your opponent's head. Since you don't know whether your opponent attacks you with a knife or not, to be able to spin your body outside of your opponent's striking path is important.

I has great successful rate on this move in the past. One time I used haymaker punch to knock down a 200 lb challenger from vertical to horizontal before his body even dropped onto the ground horizontally. It can be a great 1st line defense if you are good at it. Besides to use your front kick to stop incoming attacker, the 45 degree downward haymaker punch is the best 1st line defense when you still don't know what has just happened. It's such an important move, IMO everybody should spend training time to develop it.

The 45 degree downward haymaker punch can be seen in these 2 clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvdERnYRtTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxLiZDsssN0

[mawali]

Maybe so Syn but sometimes YKW as such ridiculously oversimplified questions that it seems he is either trolling, an idiot, or is playing with a short deck.

Actually, I think YKW's question speak to a reality no one wants to face up to.
Everyone thinks their special techniques are all that but it often comes down to "basics" in the long run. No special donkey fist kungfu, no special potato hand fist, no special wisdom kongdong foot, etc.
I also realize that "basics" means a whole lotta' stuff to many people so being the gadfly is a good thing. You dont have to pay anyone a red cent to examine one's own skill.:D

[EarthDragon]

everyone thinks their tougher than they are.............. this is based on ego, what you think you know and how well it works, not fighting tougher opponents, lack of real fighting, less than 50 street fights, never being beat up badly enough........

If your in these categories, an most of you are so shut up and listen and learn. I mean this in a respectful way of course.

[Jimbo]

Maybe so Syn but sometimes YKW as such ridiculously oversimplified questions that it seems he is either trolling, an idiot, or is playing with a short deck.

I completely disagree.

And while I don't always agree 100% with everything YKW says, I respect his experiece and knowledge, and that he has different (and some same) perspectives. He's asking some of the more relevant questions. It often takes years to come back full-circle and really examine the basics. The vast majority of the time, the basics are what are going to save you.

[-N-]

The 45 degree downward haymaker punch can be seen in these 2 clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvdERnYRtTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxLiZDsssN0

This is like Praying Mantis general purpose fan che circular clearing/attacking, but with turning footwork.

[Syn7]

you need to move ahead and not dwell on the piece : i.e. , punch, kick , step ect.

I couldn't disagree more. I think I've made myself clear though, so I'll leave it at that.

[Shaolin]

If you move back, your opponent's forward momentum can run you down. If you don't want to back up, you have to fight on your ground. To spin your body with your punch is one of the best solutions for that situation. If your opponent charges in fast enough, your haymaker punch can even hit on the back of your opponent's head. Since you don't know whether your opponent attacks you with a knife or not, to be able to spin your body outside of your opponent's striking path is important.


Possibly, yes. But, if you're beating the foot and circling out as you move back your opponent has nothing.


The 45 degree downward haymaker punch can be seen in these 2 clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvdERnYRtTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxLiZDsssN0

Those are not haymaker punches. Those are squared of guys lazily circling their arm at their partners face.

[GeneChing]

In fencing, there is an aphorism that says (and forgive my paraphrasing as I don't know the original source) 'A straight attack beats a circular one; a circular attack beats a straight one'. If that seems like some sort of zen koan to you, you might spend a little more time sparring. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Also,

..... straight attack beats a straight attack, a circular attack beats a circular attack, and no-attack beats all attacks!

So says The Ancient One!


He was very wise!:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

'A straight attack beats a circular one; a circular attack beats a straight one'.

That's old TCMA saying as well, "直破曲,曲破直 (Zhi Po Qu Qu Po Zhi)".

Old TCMA saying also said,

- "single defeat double, double defeat single".
- "strength defeat technique, technique 巧(Qiao) defeat strength."
- ...

Sometime it can be confusion.

[madhusudan]

Hi, are you basically referring to a kahp choi? The videos seemed to show more of a so choi, but maybe I was missing the downward angle.

[YouKnowWho]

Hi, are you basically referring to a kahp choi? The videos seemed to show more of a so choi, but maybe I was missing the downward angle.

The

- SC term is "环肘neck surrounding".
- praying mantis term is "圈捶Quan Chui".
- CLF term is "???".
- Karate term is "ridge hand".
- boxing term "hook punch" (similiar).
- modern term is "haymaker punch".

It's easy to see the 45 degree downward angle in this cip (at 0.11, 0.13, ...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=t_uYiYGONfM

Here ia another sparring clip.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTI4NTkxMjg0.html

[David Jamieson]

a hook and a haymaker are different.

a hook is a tight butter churn shot and a haymaker is generally a big full arm swing.

from a vs perspective, I don't think it exists.

straight punch is often the bread and butter of a fight and the crosses, hooks etc are finish shots at the end of a combo.

you'd be hard pressed to find an experienced fighter who doesn't start out with jabs as an assessment mode.

[YouKnowWho]

you'd be hard pressed to find an experienced fighter who doesn't start out with jabs as an assessment mode.

That's why I had assumed that the initial attack from someone in the dark alley would always be the straight line attack. Any "initial" haymaker will be just too easy to be countered.

[David Jamieson]

That's why I had assumed that the initial attack from someone in the dark alley would always be the straight line attack. Any "initial" haymaker will be just too easy to be countered.

I agree. Those are usually movie fights or drunken brawls where that happens. lol

Good ol' drunken brawls. I haven't been in one of those since the 80s! :p

[Scott R. Brown]

If you ever get the chance to watch a prison brawl the haymaker is one of the most common strikes thrown. Grab with one hand and haymaker with the other, sort of like a hockey fight. Then, of course the stomp or kick once the opponent is down.

[YouKnowWho]

People use haymaker in street fight a lot. Sometime they even keep their eyes closed and contact with only the inside part of the fist. Chinese call it Wang Ba Quan. A good jab and cross most time are only used by people with serious training.

I do like the solo training in this form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=t_uYiYGONfM

[Syn7]

I agree about the jab as a range assessment. Even as the "bread and butter", but I do not consider upper cuts, hooks, crosses overhands etc to be "finishers". I know it's not your typical western boxing, but I have combos that jab cross hook hook jab jab, for example. If you go down on a bigger punch, cool, but I don't rely on that. I go back to jab to regain control. If I'm connecting hard I may keep going with some upper cuts or whatever, but I use the jab to get out just as much as I use it to get in. Quite often I find I can back out of the pocket after a nice hook, but I don't rely on it. Like anybody else, I call it in the moment. Ofcourse I'm not a straight up boxer, I use my legs too, and that changes EVERYTHING!

[Kellen Bassette]

In fencing, there is an aphorism that says (and forgive my paraphrasing as I don't know the original source) 'A straight attack beats a circular one; a circular attack beats a straight one'. If that seems like some sort of zen koan to you, you might spend a little more time sparring. ;)

I've heard that for as long as I've trained Kung Fu. Straight line beats a circle, a circle beats a straight line.

[Kellen Bassette]

If you ever get the chance to watch a prison brawl the haymaker is one of the most common strikes thrown. Grab with one hand and haymaker with the other, sort of like a hockey fight. Then, of course the stomp or kick once the opponent is down.

I'd say the haymaker is the most common punch thrown in any street fight situation. It's the instinctive punch. That makes me glad that KF systems have found ways to employ it following various other techniques, which minimizes the risk of being wide open. A lot of other styles simply don't practice the haymaker because it leaves you open.

It's always a good idea to refine and perfect instinctive movements than to attempt to never use them. IMO, at least.

[YouKnowWho]

A lot of other styles simply don't practice the haymaker because it leaves you open.

If you can use open to force your opponent to close and put him in defense mode, that will be your advantage. One TCMA joke states:

Those who trains iron

- palm will always hit others.
- body will always be hit by others.

[-N-]

If you can use open to force your opponent to close and put him in defense mode, that will be your advantage. One TCMA joke states:

Those who trains iron

- palm will always hit others.
- body will always be hit by others.

Haha. What about kao da? :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The best punch is the one that lands when you need it to and KO's the MOFU !

[Robinhood]

The hay maker is kind of like the theory behind the hail marry pass in football.

[GeneChing]

In fencing, there are straight attacks and circular attacks. Bruce Lee poached a lot of JKD theory from fencing theory, as being that fencing is a western discipline, it's theory is very logic driven, almost mathematical. In fact, Bruce may have even poached this very aphorism, but it's been a long time since I've engaged his JKD writings, so I can't remember for sure.


I've heard that for as long as I've trained Kung Fu. Straight line beats a circle, a circle beats a straight line. Oh bother. If only I had said it was an ancient Chinese saying, I could have come off like Master Po. :o

[Syn7]

To me, a haymaker is just a wild swinging punch. It's not a real term. An overhand right is an overhand right. A wide hook is a wide hook. A tight hook is a tight hook. I dunno why people feel the need to overcomplicate this ****. It's a slang term for wild swinging punch. I imagine it's origin is rooted in wide hooks and overhands etc, and was adapted into the "i dunno how to fight" john wayne type culture.

[Golden Arms]

In my view a haymaker is the instinctual punch an untrained person throws instinctively when they want to hit someone as hard as they can in the head. It has a lot of overlap with what in some FMA/Kali circles would be a "#1", or caveman swing with a stick.

[GeneChing]

"Haymaker" is a slang of unknown origin and it has certainly degraded in the common vernacular to mean a range of wide powerful punches, the skill of which is not necessarily a factor as some consider haymakers KO punches, particularly in the old boxing usage. Some also consider haymakers wild and imperfect. Some say 'haymaker' derived from the slang 'hit the hay' meaning 'go to sleep' as in KO. Some say haymaker refers to the wide arc of a scythe used to cut hay.

[Syn7]

"Haymaker" is a slang of unknown origin and it has certainly degraded in the common vernacular to mean a range of wide powerful punches, the skill of which is not necessarily a factor as some consider haymakers KO punches, particularly in the old boxing usage. Some also consider haymakers wild and imperfect. Some say 'haymaker' derived from the slang 'hit the hay' meaning 'go to sleep' as in KO. Some say haymaker refers to the wide arc of a scythe used to cut hay.

I think its about hitting the hay. A sleeper. Two guys fight, one swings wild and hard and connects. Opponent goes to sleep, ideally.

[wenshu]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/1273900_o.gif

[EarthDragon]

syn

It's a slang term for wild swinging punch. I imagine it's origin is rooted in wide hooks and overhands etc, and was adapted into the "i dunno how to fight" john wayne type culture.

A the word comes form the tool and the movement of the body and arm combo of cutting hay. much like Gene already mentioned....



Some say haymaker refers to the wide arc of a scythe used to cut hay.

it does not mean wild punch this is a bad interpretation of the orgin. mus like people say coincidence is something random that happens when actuality its 2 perfect line that co-inside and perfectly meet

[YouKnowWho]

When you use haymaker, which part of your arm or fist do you use it to hit? In SC, we use the forearm inside sharp bone (similiar to the roundhouse kick shin bone). People may say that you can hit with any part of your arm. But some place is still better than another.

[Syn7]

Maybe. I like the other one better though. But you could be right. But for the record, proper use of a scythe involves more pulling than swinging. But I imagine many got lazy with it and treated it like some machete.

Using a sythe sucks btw. You drop the tip, push, twist the tip up, pull.

So ****ing slow. Great workout and neat weapon tho. All farm ork in the right amount is great exercise. That's why farmboys kick ass in wrestling so often.

[Syn7]

When you use haymaker, which part of your arm or fist do you use it to hit? In SC, we use the forearm inside sharp bone (similiar to the roundhouse kick shin bone). People may say that you can hit with any part of your arm. But some place is still better than another.

Typically I see most people use the first two knuckles. Obviously a wild swing means a random contact, which may not go so well for your hand.

As for alternatives, I like the top of the hand if conditioned for it, end of forearm, and sometimes I use my last three knuckles when the angle is right for it on a wide hook. That's just me tho. I'm more of a fist blade claw guy than a 67587 hand form guy. I punch, slice, grab, claw etc. I don't use "monkey beaks" that's for sure!!! :p

[Shaolin]

When you use haymaker, which part of your arm or fist do you use it to hit?

Two big knuckles, thumb turned down. Looks like the casting punch in Sambo.

[-N-]

When you use haymaker, which part of your arm or fist do you use it to hit? In SC, we use the forearm inside sharp bone (similiar to the roundhouse kick shin bone).

Same for Praying Mantis huen choi.

Some people prefer fist, but I like the closer range, power, and additional follow ups with forearm.

Also mine is more body torque than wide arm swing.

[Scott R. Brown]

In fencing, there are straight attacks and circular attacks. Bruce Lee poached a lot of JKD theory from fencing theory, as being that fencing is a western discipline, it's theory is very logic driven, almost mathematical. In fact, Bruce may have even poached this very aphorism, but it's been a long time since I've engaged his JKD writings, so I can't remember for sure..

You may recall his younger brother was a fencer.

[GeneChing]

Maybe. I like the other one better though. But you could be right. But for the record, proper use of a scythe involves more pulling than swinging. But I imagine many got lazy with it and treated it like some machete. Excellent point and I'm somewhat inclined to agree, at least in terms of the origin the word 'haymaker'. All blades involve some pulling or pushing of the cut to be maximally effective, even hatchets to some degree, but I hear what your saying. Of course, the western farm usage probably derives from a large two-handed scythe, like what the Grim Reaper might use. For a fast scythe, there's always kama (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-sai-tonfa-kama.html). But then, the motion of a kama doesn't reflect that of a haymaker at all, so there you have it.


You may recall his younger brother was a fencer. So was Bruce. He credits fencing texts in Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I have often argued that many JKD proponents don't really understand Bruce's JKD theory because they haven't engaged fencing theory. They commonly misconstrue or misinterpret terms and meanings because they are ignorant of their origins. Fencing theory is a brilliant way to describe combat, but it really only works for fencing. If you add attacks by anything other than sword vs. sword, it breaks down.

[SPJ]

In Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. As long as your opponent's spear head is not moving toward your chest, you don't care where it may go. Your spear just lead your opponent's spear "into the emptiness".

When your opponent uses jab or cross to punch at your head, your 45 degree downward "haymaker punch" can not only knock his punch out of his striking path, it may even knock his body off balance too. Even if your opponent may attack you first, your counter can reverse the situation 180 degree.

Is "straight punch" truly that effective? What's your opinion on this?

straight is fast and direct.

circular travels longer distance

both has its place in practice and application.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

circular travels longer distance ...
It depends on whether it's a big circle or a small circle.

When you use circular move to interrupt a straingt line, you can interrupt near the starting point of the straight line, you can also interrupt near the ending point of the straight line. Even if the circular move may travel more distance, If your circle is "small", the moment that yor strat your circle, you already interrupt your opponent's straight line even before contact. You pretty much let your opponent's straight line to "run into your circle".

[Syn7]

So was Bruce. He credits fencing texts in Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I have often argued that many JKD proponents don't really understand Bruce's JKD theory because they haven't engaged fencing theory. They commonly misconstrue or misinterpret terms and meanings because they are ignorant of their origins. Fencing theory is a brilliant way to describe combat, but it really only works for fencing. If you add attacks by anything other than sword vs. sword, it breaks down.


It is what it is. But as far as I can see, the principles broken down to their simplest are quite transferable. I'm no fencing expert, but I do have a relatively decent grasp on the art and have a huge admiration for the sheer beauty and simplicity of it all.

[YouKnowWho]

The Chinese weapon is just the extention of the arms. The following Miao Diao techniques are identically to the "crazy monkey" that you comb your left hair and then comb your right hair. In both SC and preying mantis, it's called 挂(Gua).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFddPoWgy0o

挂(Gua) can be seen at 0.03.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOu26fMY5iU

[-N-]

Fencing theory is a brilliant way to describe combat, but it really only works for fencing. If you add attacks by anything other than sword vs. sword, it breaks down.

Brendan Lai had fencing background. A lot of his speed method is same as in fencing.

Praying Mantis kwun lao palm attack is feint disengage and second intention.

[YouKnowWho]

The shortest distance between 2 points is the straight line. But if the distance is too short, you have to use circular motion to generate power. The praying mantis "Mo Pan Shou", "waist chop" are good examples.

[EarthDragon]

spj

straight is fast and direct.


circular travels longer distance

both has its place in practice and application.

agreed however this depends on how you look at it, everything is circular, you cant really doa straight punch, depends on apex range distance etc etc circular gains momentum which can be faster than a straight strike.