Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

ShaolinArg

01-23-2004, 06:25 AM

Hi:
In this forum, posted some months ago, someone said that there is no foreign warrior monk named in Shaolin Temple.
However, in 1997, 3 Argentinians were initiated as warrior monks in Shaolin Temple, all of them disciples from Shi Yong Kan (Lu Hai Long), trained at Shaolin Shuiku Wushu Xuexiao (Shaolin Dam School or something like that):

Shi Yan Bao (Carlos Aleman), Shi Yan Long (Jorge Bussi), (the third I don't remember the name).

I think they were the first foreign warrior monks in Shaolin Temple.

You can get some info in:

www.slkf.net (chinese)
www.shaolinsi.com.ar (spanish).

Best regards.

norther practitioner

01-23-2004, 09:22 AM

I thought they were just deciples?

:confused:

GeneChing

01-23-2004, 11:29 AM

A lot of this arose from my interview with Venerable Abbot Shi Yongxin in our Nov/Dec 2003 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397) issue. The statement was as follows:

GC: Many non-Chinese claim to be "official" representatives of Shaolin Temple. Some have gone so far to claim that they are Shaolin Monks. Have you ever accepted a non-Chinese monk?
Abbot: So far, we have not received any foreign people to be a monk, but perhaps in the future, when our facilities improve, perhaps we will. According to Buddhism, every being has the wisdom of Buddha and this has no nationality.

This caused somewhat of a stir, since many people claim to be monks. This needs to be qualified - When I discussed this with the Abbot, we were talking more about fully indoctrinated monks, not warrior monks. His answer was a bit ambiguous (and there is at least one person I know who claims to be a fully indoctrinate Shaolin monk who is not Chinese).

In terms of warrior monks, I'm still not exactly sure who certifies people with this title. In that same issue, Grandmaster Liang Yiquan claimed to be the only private school authorized to teach layman disciples (see page 55). In an article I published in our Jan Feb 2004 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=436) called Shaolin's Second Wave, Xingzhen and Yanfei talked about how they got their titles for the demonstration tours. The former only claimed being a disciple under Deling and Deren, monks who were with the Shaolin Temple Wushuguan. The latter is a disciple of Yongxin.

I know of several people who claim that they have been certified as Warrior monks, but haven't been able to validate that. Nor am I even confident that their is some sort of way to validate it - I'm not confident that a record is kept, at least not one that is universal for all of Shaolin. So the warrior monk title is somewhat dubious, and perhaps even getting more muddled now than before. Now I don't doubt or question their claims, either. It is entirely possible, even credible. The tricky thing is that the Shaolin community is so huge - I mean really, when one school can claim 13,000 students in a year, and that's just one of 80 registered schools nearby, not counting all the unregisitered schools and the ones that are ****her away, it's very hard to get a straight answer out of Shaolin, not to mention the whole zen koan aspect. I suppose that's one reason I study it - it never ceases to fascinate me.

Ironwind

01-23-2004, 11:12 PM

When I get up the money and time and freedom. I want to attend a Shoalin Institute for 4 to 8 years. Even though I know it might kill me I kinda like the fact of seeing how close I can be to a point of breaking in nerve. It has been my life goal to die in beautiful China when I'm like super-old.
I doubt if in 8 years I can become a warrior monk, but if so knowing myself I'll stress myself out taking it to another level.

blooming lotus

01-24-2004, 02:04 AM

I've heard of one myself. I guess until if ever it's verified you cant really dispute it. I've also heard that for the first time in shaolins history that the abbot has been diosmissing or stripping monks of titles etc, because of behaviour unfit. Better 10 troups you know have your back, than 500 so-so's ha.

johngreenhow

01-25-2004, 06:09 PM

Does all this mean that having my picture taken while looking mean and wearing my orange pants *doesn't* make me a monk?
****. Maybe if I shave my head or something...

Brad

01-25-2004, 08:51 PM

What sort of vows do "warrior monks" take?

GeneChing

01-26-2004, 12:31 PM

I don't know the exact warrrior monk vows, but I do know that they are akin to disciple vows and some Buddhist vows. My understanding is that includes chastity. I've been trying to find out more about this. Let me get back to you.

As for kicking monks out, the present Abbot is doing that, but I understand that it has been down before. Keep in mind that this is only the 3rd Abbot Shaolin has had in several centuries...

blooming lotus

01-26-2004, 05:26 PM

it's right about here that I'm going to have to pull you up Gene on an earlier comment....

So the aim of the martial monk is to preserve ma ha? And here's me thinking that it was to protect / save the people and assist them to nirvana, "remaining unitl can take all sentient beings with"....m/a being only a facilitating aspect of that......I guess your not wrong....just not entirely correct.....

Don't look now but I think your lay side's showing :eek:

;)

GeneChing

01-29-2004, 01:02 PM

The aim of a bodhisattva is akin to
"remaining unitl can take all sentient beings with".... but all monks are not bodhisattvas. Many of the monks are more like Arhats - deep in a world of personal asceticism. They don't remain. They go on. Their aim is the martial arts, not necessarily assisting others to nirvana. This is still a practice of Buddhism, in a way. Many warrior monks leave the brotherhood and take their martial arts study elsewhere. They go on too. Case and point, ex-monk Zhang Lipeng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=145)

blooming lotus

01-29-2004, 01:28 PM

but Lipeng, in his duty of honour to his beliefs, while declaring that he believes buddhism in his heart, freely gave up his "title" of warrior monk and now declares ex-monk.....I really dont have at the moment for further comment, but I'll consider the rest of your arguement / post for later :cool:

GeneChing

01-29-2004, 03:29 PM

With Lipeng, it was always his intention, or rather his father's intention, that he lead a normal life following his Shaolin experience.

HmorenoM

01-09-2013, 02:23 PM

Hey people, i'm new here. I've read a lot of threads here and well, this is just excellent. Talking about Shalolin monks all-around America i'd like to ask what's your opinion about these non-chinese monks:

Jorge Buzzi (Shi Yan Long) (Argentina):

Shi Yon Kan's disciple
http://www.temploshaolinenargentina.com/images/fotos/shifu_shi_yan_long.jpg

This videos is about a ceremony at Mt. Song temple (his monk ceremony i supose)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up4lLyEAFjk

Walter Zuazo (Shi Heng Yi) (Venezuela)

Shi Guolin's disciple

http://www.guatire.com/portal/images/2011/monjewalterzuazo2011.jpg

This was his ceremony at STOH in NY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk5NPW4QUpM

Carlos Álvarez (Shi Miao Zhang) (Spain)

Shi Xing Lin's disciple

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/250003_145600338854179_99842_n.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsnLWmGlO6g

This last is not buddhist.

Weel, this is for for reading your opinions or something. I hope not being breaking any rule :)

Bye!

Syn7

01-09-2013, 03:12 PM

Culture may play a role, race does not. Even asking the question comes off as somewhat racist. There is no question. If they believe it, and put in the work, they are monks. Simple.

RenDaHai

01-09-2013, 03:22 PM

To become a monk is to throw away your old life in exchange for a new one.

In the past people did this because they had nothing to begin with, or they were in trouble or because they had done something terrible or in the rarest cases because the were looking for spiritual realisation.

Any way, it is about sacrifice. To discard everything you know and start again.

Are these people monks? I don't know, you would have to look at the way they live their lives.

pazman

01-09-2013, 03:26 PM

Would it be more proper to call Chinese monks, non-Indian monks?

If the last guy isn't Buddhist, why did he dress as a Buddhist for Halloween? He even has a Buddhist name.

pazman

01-09-2013, 03:29 PM

One time for Halloween, I dressed in a monk costume I got from China. My two friends dressed as Monkey and Pig. We got really drunk and had a good time.

GeneChing

01-09-2013, 03:53 PM

Interesting thread topic, HmorenoM. In regards to this subject, technically speaking, to be considered as a fully-ordained Shaolin Monk, you must have the Abbot's blessing, as by definition, that officially signifies acceptance by the monastic brotherhood of Shaolin today. There are many of us Shaolin Disciples that have called themselves 'monks' (I have called myself the real 'fake' monk, but only in jest). I have asked the Abbot directly about how many laowai have been officially ordained, and he is always very diplomatic about the answer. I haven't asked him about it in a while as it's a waste of a question.

Note that there is a difference between 'Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks' and 'Non-Chinese Buddhist Monks'. There are plenty of the latter.

Here are two previous relevant threads:
Yanfan (Franco Testini) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48656)
(note also The First American Branded at Shaolin Temple By Melissa Leon-Guerrero in our Shaolin Special 2007 (http://www.forum.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729))

Matthew Ahmet (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52634)

LFJ

01-09-2013, 05:52 PM

They are not monks (at least by these ceremonies).

The difficulty is that Shaolin is one of the few Chinese traditions that give secular disciples monastic names, whereas usually the Shi family name (short for the Chinese transliteration of Śākyamuni) is reserved for the fully ordained. Secular disciples often have a separate generational naming scheme, but in Shaolin it is the same as the fully ordained.

But looking at the ceremonies;

First of all, one monk alone cannot perform the ordination ceremony for another like this. It takes 10 fully ordained monks, i.e. "3 teachers and 7 witnesses" (三师七证).

The three teachers include the "preceptor" who confers the precepts, the "chairman" who recites description of the ceremony, and the "instructor" who teaches the ceremonial manner.

The seven witnesses attest to the ordination, that it was valid and conducted properly. At least seven monks are required, unless in distant locations where it is not possible, in which case at least two witnesses are required.

In the first video the initiate did not even learn to perform a proper prostration. If this were a full ordination ceremony with all required attendees, it was still not conducted properly and thus null and void.

To confirm anyone's ordination you may simply ask for names of their 3 teachers and 7 witnesses. They should have a copy of this on their official certificate of ordination. Otherwise, as secular disciples what they will have is a refuge certificate like the first guy was given that will just name their refuge master.

HmorenoM

01-09-2013, 07:02 PM

Syn7

01-09-2013, 07:08 PM

Wow... thanks for the answers, and well, i didn't ask for being racist :/ it was just for curiosity, i'm just asking to people that i know that knows more than i do. And thanks again, LFJ, Gene, Ren... :)

I don't think you asked because you are racist. I'm just sayin', it kinda is. I don't believe that was your intent and you get a pass. No worries, lol.

Race has nothing to do with being a monk. If it did, they wouldn't be true to their philosophy. Hence, not real monks. Regardless of what they say and wear. You live it or you don't. Everything else is irrelevant.

Bacon

01-09-2013, 11:51 PM

I don't think it's racist at all. For example you can't be a Hindu convert. It's by birth only. I understand why the question came to light as it did in his mind.

Syn7

01-10-2013, 02:15 AM

I don't think it's racist at all. For example you can't be a Hindu convert. It's by birth only. I understand why the question came to light as it did in his mind.

Irrelevant. These are Buddhist monks we're talking about. If you believe your vows and actually follow them, race shouldn't be an issue. Apples and oranges, man.

And if your vows happen to be exclusionary, you're a dick pushing along a dick tradition.

LFJ

01-10-2013, 02:27 AM

Kellen Bassette

01-10-2013, 06:03 AM

That's it! Unlock the racism thread! :mad:

HmorenoM

01-10-2013, 08:34 AM

Did the OP actually question that these folks were monks due to being non-Chinese? It appears he assumed they were in fact monks and simply asked what others' opinions on them were, perhaps because they are not so common in Shaolin? It wasn't really a clear question, but I didn't detect anything racist about it.

Exactly.
I just was around the internet, i found that and attracted my attention, then i said "hey, why not asking about this" as i said before, i'm just asking to people that i know that knows more than i do... I didn't want to offend or being racist... i'm training in Walter Zuazo's school since yesterday... Forgive me for being curious.

Thank you

RenDaHai

01-10-2013, 09:24 AM

... I didn't want to offend or being racist...

Don't worry buddy. There is absolutely ZERO racism in what you said. The fact it was mentioned is part of what is wrong with the world today. People call racism far too quickly. The person who perceives racism when its not there, he is the racist.

David Jamieson

01-10-2013, 10:11 AM

I don't think it's racist at all. For example you can't be a Hindu convert. It's by birth only. I understand why the question came to light as it did in his mind.

This isn't exactly true. Some Hindus believe this and others do not.
There are in the meantime many converts to Hinduism. :)

GeneChing

01-10-2013, 10:26 AM

These are Buddhist monks we're talking about. If you believe your vows and actually follow them, race shouldn't be an issue. Apples and oranges, man. The number of non-Chinese Buddhist monks is innumerable. The number of non-Chinese Shaolin monks is very low, if any, but this is just because Shaolin has only been open for laowai for a few decades. I've spoken to the Abbot about this, and like I said, he's very diplomatic publicly. He is totally open to non-Chinese Shaolin monks. In fact, he encourages it (at least when talking to me) but he stipulates that such person must meet the criteria just like any other Shaolin Monk candidate. In due time, the Abbot feels non-Chinese Shaolin monks are inevitable.

LFJ is spot on with his comment below:

The difficulty is that Shaolin is one of the few Chinese traditions that give secular disciples monastic names, whereas usually the Shi family name (short for the Chinese transliteration of Śākyamuni) is reserved for the fully ordained. Secular disciples often have a separate generational naming scheme, but in Shaolin it is the same as the fully ordained. The issue of wuseng and biaoyanseng, which we've discussed here and in our Shaolin Specials ad nauseum, complicates what officially defines a Shaolin Monk. It's worthy of note that Shaolin is now holding large indoctrination ceremonies. See the article I posted above:

The First American Branded at Shaolin Temple By Melissa Leon-Guerrero (Shaolin Special 2007 (http://www.forum.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729))

Matthew

01-13-2013, 09:09 AM

To become a monk is to throw away your old life in exchange for a new one.

It shouldn't be done by those with something to throw away - but for those who are already at the entrance of the temple, or those who are already capable of leaving home without baggage to 'throw away.'

What you are saying is more common in southeastern asian countries (e.g. Laos, Thailand), where layfolk are encouraged to spend part of their young life as a monk to see if it is right for them (and to appreciate the sangha among other reasons) and if it is, they will throw away anything they have collected. Even if they only end up trying it for a week, month, etc.

RenDaHai

01-13-2013, 12:39 PM

It shouldn't be done by those with something to throw away - but for those who are already at the entrance of the temple, or those who are already capable of leaving home without baggage to 'throw away.'

I think if you have already dealt with your 'baggage' then there is no need to become a monk. You are already past that stage. You can move straight on to the personal contemplation of a hermit. Becoming a monk is to give you that opportunity to shed this baggage.

Amongst my older teachers they say there is nothing to revere about monks. In times past monks were most often criminals, disgraced officials/officers/soldiers, orphans, *******s etc. and more rarely those seeking spirituality. Temples offered some form of legal sanctuary. The renown of Shaolin perhaps made it special though.

Matthew

01-13-2013, 02:24 PM

Amongst my older teachers they say there is nothing to revere about monks. In times past monks were most often criminals, disgraced officials/officers/soldiers, orphans, *******s etc. and more rarely those seeking spirituality. Temples offered some form of legal sanctuary.

To generalize about monks this way is a poor contemplation. Because someone took vows, it does not mean they must be worthy of teaching, worthy of having disciples, or are necessarily free of desires, etc.

Driving cars used to be very dangerous - and still is to this day. We don't teach potential drivers that cars have no use, and there is nothing to appreciate about them. Not only would it be a waste of our breath, it would say little to their usefulness to ourselves or others.

Likewise, those who have wholly dedicated themselves to understanding their selfish desires and cultivating the way are certainly worthy of revere.

I think if you have already dealt with your 'baggage' then there is no need to become a monk. You are already past that stage. You can move straight on to the personal contemplation of a hermit. Becoming a monk is to give you that opportunity to shed this baggage.

What I mean by having baggage- is that they are not ready/able/wholly willing to sincerely cultivate toward ending their selfish desires and live selflessly. I don't mean that all of their desires are already resolved before "Leaving Home" and/or taking certain vows to become a monk.

If you don't have utmost sincerity in this, you are not ready to become a monk, and will surely not progress no matter how many vows you take, how far away from home you are, etc.

RenDaHai

01-13-2013, 03:41 PM

To generalize about monks this way is a poor contemplation. Because someone took vows, it does not mean they must be worthy of teaching, worthy of having disciples, or are necessarily free of desires, etc.

Indeed.

Likewise, those who have wholly dedicated themselves to understanding their selfish desires and cultivating the way are certainly worthy of revere.

They are. But I am talking historically. Buddhist Monks have a very bad reputation in Ancient China and Japan. More often than not they were murderers and exiles seeking sanctuary in the temples. Then the temples would act like mercenary armies.

Some on who has genuinely dedicated is indeed worthy of revere, but becoming a monk doesn't guarantee that and historically and today I am certain there is more ulterior motive than genuine dedication. All those times the Shaolin temple marched to War, I am certain there was an old monk left in the temple shaking his head saying 'A mi tuo fo'

What I mean by having baggage- is that they are not ready/able/wholly willing to sincerely cultivate toward ending their selfish desires and live selflessly. I don't mean that all of their desires are already resolved before "Leaving Home" and/or taking certain vows to become a monk.

If you don't have utmost sincerity in this, you are not ready to become a monk, and will surely not progress no matter how many vows you take, how far away from home you are, etc.

Becoming a monk is a tool to help you along this path. You will surely have sincerity to become a genuine monk in the first place. They are resolved but still have a great deal of attachments. Becoming a monk gives you the opportunity to shed these attachments, to throw them away and see for once if they were ever necessary.

Syn7

01-13-2013, 08:04 PM

The number of non-Chinese Buddhist monks is innumerable. The number of non-Chinese Shaolin monks is very low, if any, but this is just because Shaolin has only been open for laowai for a few decades. I've spoken to the Abbot about this, and like I said, he's very diplomatic publicly. He is totally open to non-Chinese Shaolin monks. In fact, he encourages it (at least when talking to me) but he stipulates that such person must meet the criteria just like any other Shaolin Monk candidate. In due time, the Abbot feels non-Chinese Shaolin monks are inevitable.

No No, I dont think the fact the Shaolin has few foreign monks is racist. I think questioning the merrit of said monks based on the fact that they are not chinese is racist.

bawang

01-13-2013, 09:02 PM

No No, I dont think the fact the Shaolin has few foreign monks is racist. I think questioning the merrit of said monks based on the fact that they are not chinese is racist.

race is not an issue, money is an issue. shaolin temple is a business.

the "real" monks at the region are also weary of weirdo tourists that play dressup for 3 months then lose the "mood". the turnover for kung fu tourism is huge, its like a converyor belt of people constantly coming and going.

Syn7

01-13-2013, 09:12 PM

race is not an issue, money is an issue. shaolin temple is a business.

the "real" monks at the region are also weary of weirdo tourists that play dressup for 3 months then lose the "mood". the turnover for kung fu tourism is huge, its like a converyor belt of people constantly coming and going.

It takes a long time to be an actual monk there. I imagine that's why they have lay disciples playing dress up. To adress the LARPers and make some duckets.

Anyways, the comment was in relation to the original question. A question that specifically asked if these non chinese monks were for real. I don't think it was intended that way. But it is what it is, none the less.

PalmStriker

01-13-2013, 09:13 PM

I don't think it's racist at all. For example you can't be a Hindu convert. It's by birth only. I understand why the question came to light as it did in his mind.
There are numerous Gayatri Brahmins ("Hindu") priests of non-Indian descent. Even in India. :)

LFJ

01-13-2013, 10:57 PM

No No, I dont think the fact the Shaolin has few foreign monks is racist. I think questioning the merrit of said monks based on the fact that they are not chinese is racist.

Anyways, the comment was in relation to the original question. A question that specifically asked if these non chinese monks were for real.

Specifically? Where? Questioning their merit based on race? Where?

The only racism I see in this thread is what you've read into it.

Syn7

01-14-2013, 01:57 AM

racism

(ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m)

[f. race n.2 + -ism; cf. F. racisme (Robert 1935).]

a.a The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race.

Why single out non Chinese monks? Why not a discussion on the diff between real monks and LARPers?

I'm not reading into anything. I use words the way they are meant to be used. I don't care what people THINK they mean.

I was wrong about him asking if they were for real though. He simply asked for opinions. I don't think his intent was racist. But why should the color of their skin even be an issue? At best it was a culture question. But then why write:

Weel, this is for for reading your opinions or something. I hope not being breaking any rule

Who does that with a normal solicitation of opinion on a website where the sole purpose is to share opinions? And visit http://www.martialartsmart.com of course!!!

This isn't anything new either. Idiots are still duped by Asians because they assume that because they are Asian they are legit. It's kinda sad.

Syn7

01-14-2013, 02:03 AM

As for what makes you a monk, IMO taking personal vows and following the rules makes you a monk. Sanctions from a bigger body don't mean a thing to me. Having the Abbot himself swear you in doesn't make you any more or less of a buddhist monk than anyone else taking the vows and staying true. Many ordained monks are liars and not true to their vows. So yeah, sanctioning by any body doesn't mean a **** thing to me. Who's a real christian? A molesting bishop who dines with the pope 4 times a year or a guy who attends service, and walks the walk in his daily life? To me, it's not even a question that needs to be asked.

LFJ

01-14-2013, 04:40 AM

Thanks for the definition. It further illustrates that you were the only one coming into this topic with such a mind, reading racism into the thread, as no one ever suggested these men can't acquire certain characteristics or abilities because they aren't Chinese.

Why single out non Chinese monks?

He didn't. It was about non Chinese Shaolin monks. Why single them out? Because it is quite rare in Shaolin today to have non Chinese monks.

The question was only on our opinion of them, which may open cross-cultural discussion on many related topics, not about whether we think it is right or wrong because they are non Chinese.

The original poster himself seems to be from Venezuela and has begun training at one of these guys' schools. What is he, the Clayton Bigsby of Latin America, being racist against his own race?

As for what makes you a monk, IMO taking personal vows and following the rules makes you a monk. Sanctions from a bigger body don't mean a thing to me.

And your opinion doesn't mean a thing in the context of the Buddhist monastic structure as laid out by the Buddha.

Who's a real christian?

Who is a real Buddhist is a separate question. Who is a monk vs layman is straightforward. There are clear provisions for becoming a monk, but obviously that doesn't guarantee spiritual attainment, just as being a layman doesn't bar you from spiritual attainment. Buddhist laymen remember the example of Vimalakirti, a lay Bodhisattva. So these are really two unrelated questions.

RenDaHai

01-14-2013, 06:23 AM

racism

(ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m)

[f. race n.2 + -ism; cf. F. racisme (Robert 1935).]

a.a The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race.

Shiiiiiiittt, if thats the definition of Racist then I'm one, as is anyone with any degree of logic or knowledge of the concept of DNA.

To make this a better definition it should be split into Physical and Mental characteristics and abilities. On the physical side it is demonstrably and undeniably true that race determines some physical characteristics and abilities. On the Mental side it is much less so.

Nature and Nurture BOTH play a huge part in the formation of a human being. If you have complete knowledge of both then you can act with absolute discrimination and would be correct to do so. But to use knowledge of one to predict the other is unwise and offensive.

And to generalise is foolish. To say all things that are grey are metal is stupid. However to say all things that are grey are GREY is absolutely true. If greyness was the characteristic I was looking for then using that as my discrimination is fine. If metal was the characteristic I was looking for then grey is a stupid distinction to make.

In short it is never racist to point out that black people have dark skin or that Asian people have slitty eyes or that white people have long noses. It is racist to deny them an opportunity because of this fact, or to suggest that these superficial characteristics have any determination over their capacity or potential.

The problem is today people don't get that and even pointing out race is considered racist....wtf?

As to questioning white people being SHaolin monks? Thats a good question. China s a foreign country and doesn't give out life long visas. Your lucky if you get 3 months at a time. Any commitment to being a monk for 3 months is not really a genuine commitment and if they are a monk in any temple outside Shaolin then are they really a shaolin monk?

Kellen Bassette

01-14-2013, 07:19 AM

In short it is never racist to point out that black people have dark skin or that Asian people have slitty eyes or that white people have long noses. It is racist to deny them an opportunity because of this fact, or to suggest that these superficial characteristics have any determination over their capacity or potential.

The problem is today people don't get that and even pointing out race is considered racist....wtf?

Yup, that's it. We've become so over sensitized with the PC garbage we can't even have a real discussion on the subject anymore. Too many yahoos jumped on the bandwagon and condescend with "well that's racist" every time there's a mere mention of race. Everyone's walking on egg shells afraid to say anything that could imply another person is of a different ethnic background.
You certainly can't mention any facts or statistics regarding a group of people. That's akin to genocide.

It's weakening us as a society and making us unable to deal with real issues.

GeneChing

01-14-2013, 10:40 AM

No No, I dont think the fact the Shaolin has few foreign monks is racist. I think questioning the merrit of said monks based on the fact that they are not chinese is racist. Our merit questioning is color-blind. Just read the archives here. :rolleyes: That being said, I see your point now. I imagine that a lot of the questioning arises from the fact that there are so few non-Chinese 'official' Shaolin monks, if any, so the poseurs really stick out. There are plenty of fake Chinese Shaolin monks, but they don't stick out nearly as much. That's sort of contrapositive racism. ;)

Syn7

01-14-2013, 06:20 PM

Yup, that's it. We've become so over sensitized with the PC garbage we can't even have a real discussion on the subject anymore. Too many yahoos jumped on the bandwagon and condescend with "well that's racist" every time there's a mere mention of race. Everyone's walking on egg shells afraid to say anything that could imply another person is of a different ethnic background.
You certainly can't mention any facts or statistics regarding a group of people. That's akin to genocide.

It's weakening us as a society and making us unable to deal with real issues.

Racism is classifying by race. It's not positive or negative until somebody makes it so. And yes, we are all racist. Some more than others. Some negative, some not.

This isn't an anthropology forum. I just don't see why race is even a topic? Non Chinese monks are rare, no ****! the temple is new, the country was relatively shut until relatively recently. In time, if it survives, I have no doubt there will be all sorts of diff people there. As far as I'm concerned, this is all a given. SO again, why even bring up race at all?

Oh, and you can hardly put what I said next to people using reverse racism for political agendas. Come on. Your beef is with the *******ization of the term, not me using it correctly. I specifically made a point to spell out how I did NOT feel that this was intended to be offensive. But I do feel that there is a great chance he knew it could be seen that way. My point s to the greater context in how we talk about race at all. It's a non issue IMO. Race means nothing. You wanna talk culture, ok. In that context it's not racist, it's culturalist. another term that is not postive or negative until it is made so. One could argue that I made it so. But if I wasn't clear before, I'll say it now. It was not my intent to call people racist in the way many percieve the word to mean.

Nobody here would ever call me PC:D You should know this by now. I speaks my mind and I use whatever language I feel will suit my goals. Whether it's relaxed, straight talk, baiting, or just plain aggressive.

Kellen, that's not all directed toward you. I just used your post as a jump off. You should know which parts are for you. ;)

Syn7

01-14-2013, 06:28 PM

Our merit questioning is color-blind. Just read the archives here. :rolleyes: That being said, I see your point now. I imagine that a lot of the questioning arises from the fact that there are so few non-Chinese 'official' Shaolin monks, if any, so the poseurs really stick out. There are plenty of fake Chinese Shaolin monks, but they don't stick out nearly as much. That's sort of contrapositive racism. ;)

No, I hear you. And people like Ren. I could have been more clear in the first place and that was my bad, for sure. I just don't like the way we(most of us) think when it comes to differences. You raise a black kid in a white family completely segregated from other black people, his only difference from his peers will only be physical. To an extent anyways. There are genetic factors, but for the sake of this convo, let's not open that can right now. After, sure. But it will just muddy the waters right now. Our differences are cultural, not racial. IMO even looking at race in this global community we have now is just ridiculous and is a remnant of horrible systemic racism in our respective cultures. Learned behaviour has very very little to do with your race. Aside from like a reaction to being judged based on race. Then of course it does affect you. Again, separate issue tho.

pazman

01-14-2013, 09:24 PM

For some reason I thought the thread was titled something else when I posted earlier. Oh well.

In any case, this thread bring up couple of interesting points:

1) Buddhism is not bound to culture and the Buddhism we have today was influenced by not only Indian thought, but also by the Persians, Greeks, etc. Buddhism is more similar to Christianity than Judaism or Hinduism in this regard. There are real converts to Judaism and Hinduism, but they are exceptions, not the norm.

2) I'm not sure if it is even possible for foreigners to become monks in China. You can study Buddhism, for sure, but you can't get a visa to stay in a monastery. China is not really a place for foreigners to live out the rest of their lives.

DamoY2K

01-14-2013, 11:19 PM

Hi, I'm new here but I've been interested in Shaolin for a long while!

I live in Europe and there are several legit non chinese Shaolin disciples / monks here:

Shi Xing Mi (Walter Gjergja) disciple of Shi De Yang - www.shaolinwuseng.com (Italy and Switzerland)

Shi Xing Cang (Valter Carboni) disciple of Shi De Yang - www.culturashaolin.it (Italy)

Shi Yan Wu (Matthew Ahmet) disciple of Shi Yong Xin - www.shaolin-warriors.co.uk (England)

Shi Yan Mai (Dominique Saanetang) disciple of Shi Yong Xin - www.saatenang.com (France and Belgium)

Shi Miao Dian (Chris Kouris) disciple of Shi Heng Jun - www.chanwushaolin.org.gr (Greece)

These non chinese disciples / monks are the ones recognized also by the Shaolin Europe Association, the european authority of the temple, as official representatives of Shaolin within their respective schools / cities.

There are a few more non chinese disciples / monks with apparently legit backgrounds but I don't remember the names, I think one in Russia another one or two in Greece and perhaps one more in the UK ..… it's difficult to keep track. Then there are lots (30 - 40) non chinese and also some chinese "Shaolin monks" with various "pseudo credentials", "purchased titles", "distorted curriculums" or simply "self proclaimed" ..… ;)

Kellen Bassette

01-14-2013, 11:53 PM

Oh, and you can hardly put what I said next to people using reverse racism for political agendas.

There is no such thing as "reverse racism." The assumption is beyond absurd. It is just racism.

Nobody here would ever call me PC:D You should know this by now.

Kellen, that's not all directed toward you. I just used your post as a jump off. You should know which parts are for you. ;)

I don't think you are the least bit PC. Your comments left an opening for my jumping off point as well, so I jumped. :p It's an argument I make whenever there is an opportunity, that's all.

I'm not a racist, but I am an opportunist. :rolleyes:

LFJ

01-15-2013, 12:12 AM

Syn7

01-15-2013, 12:25 AM

There is no such thing as "reverse racism." The assumption is beyond absurd. It is just racism.

I don't think you are the least bit PC. Your comments left an opening for my jumping off point as well, so I jumped. :p It's an argument I make whenever there is an opportunity, that's all.

I'm not a racist, but I am an opportunist. :rolleyes:

Word.

Exploit that ****!

I find the whole reverse thing kinda funny. Race arguments manifest in strange ways sometimes. The best is the white guys, that had every opportunity in the world, that get super ****ed off when a working class person of color gets a job they wanted. People just suck in general. :p

I can tell you one thing I never am is truly bored.

Kellen Bassette

01-15-2013, 04:44 AM

I can tell you one thing I never am is truly bored.

Never being bored is a great way to live life...there's just to much to do/see/say...

DamoY2K

01-15-2013, 05:08 AM

LFJ

01-15-2013, 05:41 AM

Hi LFJ, I think things are a little more "gray" than that, for exemple all the people above are secular disciples but also had formal "wuseng" ceremonies inside Shaolin temple with the right number of "monk witnesses" and they are recognized as wuseng by the temple authorities .... so what are they? :)

Wuseng and Sujiadizi are practically the same, taking the same secular level of precepts. Yet the Wuseng differ in that they are also "Chujia" dizi, meaning they have "left home" and are considered monastic members of the sangha ("seng"jia).

The folks you listed are Sujiadizi, meaning they have not left home (chujia) to live in the monastery. You could call them Wushu dizi, but they are not actually Wu"seng" because they don't live monastic lives.

I think the line between disciples / warrior monks / teacher monks is become far more blurred than you think. Certainly they are not Wenseng if that's what you mean, but who is today in Shaolin ..... ;)

It's really not that complicated, as there are clear provision for becoming each, and actually 2/3 of the monastic community in Shaolin are fully ordained Hesheng.

LFJ

01-15-2013, 05:55 AM

all the people above are secular disciples but also had formal "wuseng" ceremonies inside Shaolin temple with the right number of "monk witnesses" and they are recognized as wuseng by the temple authorities .... so what are they? :)

The "3 teachers & 7 witnesses" are required for full ordinations. Secular level precept ceremonies (sujiadizi or wuseng) can be conducted by just the one master. Whoever was there were spectators.

I think some of these folks have not fully understood the implications of the ceremonies they underwent. In many cases it's due to a language barrier and/or poor interpretors who themselves aren't totally clear.

DamoY2K

01-15-2013, 08:41 AM

Hi LFJ, thanks for your very informative clarification although to me in a way it further confirms the "grayness" today ..... the "Wudizi" name you jokingly use says it all ..... I think the wuseng vs official Shaolin temple sanctioned sujiadizi vs all the other presumed sujiadizi (non chinese and also chinese) situation is not so black and white IMO.

For example I've seen photos and videos of a few ceremonies (see links posted before) held in the Shaolin temple itself with the appropriate number of teachers and witnesses, where the disciples are subsequently also recognized by the temple as official representatives (directors of authorized Shaolin cultural centers etc). So a wuseng-type ceremony followed by wuseng-type recognition but with secular lives ..... a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps ..... :)

Then you get former chinese wuseng who are still classified as wuseng by the temple and by themselves, but have been living secular lives for a long time. Where do they truly fit, in tradition but also in perception ..... perception is reality to whom perceives it. ;)

IMO today if you are officially recognized as a teacher / master representing the temple + have undergone a wuseng-type discipleship ceremony in the temple + have studied in Shaolin becoming disciple of a legitimate Shaolin temple master = then you are for all intents and purposes a Shaolin wuseng ..... although technically perhaps not fully ..... but as far as I know Shaolin has always been a rather "gray" place when it comes to who is "in" or "out" or somewhere in between.

Anyway ultimately competences and conduct should speak louder than names and titles! :)

LFJ

01-15-2013, 09:22 AM

the "Wudizi" name you jokingly use says it all

I wasn't joking. They can be called Wushu dizi. Part of their ceremony is martial discipleship.

For example I've seen photos and videos of a few ceremonies (see links posted before) held in the Shaolin temple itself with the appropriate number of teachers and witnesses, where the disciples are subsequently also recognized by the temple as official representatives (directors of authorized Shaolin cultural centers etc). So a wuseng-type ceremony followed by wuseng-type recognition but with secular lives ..... a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps ..... :)

A "wuseng-type ceremony" is just a secular Buddhist/martial discipleship ceremony for someone who lives a monastic life and takes slightly more precepts than regular sujiadizi. No appropriate number of teachers and witnesses are required as it is secular. You can be secular and run a center. You only need full ordination to run a monastery as an abbot.

Then you get former chinese wuseng who are still classified as wuseng by the temple and by themselves, but have been living secular lives for a long time.

They are usually and technically considered "former" wuseng, but may just keep the title. Not living monastic lives and holding only the 5 lay precepts though, they are just sujiadizi like any other.

Anyway ultimately competences and conduct should speak louder than names and titles! :)

Right on! :)

bawang

01-15-2013, 10:42 AM

i wish one day shaolin temple will have monk soldiers again.

GeneChing

01-15-2013, 10:44 AM

The real rub is the term 'monk'. What LFJ is defining is a bhikṣu, which is a very specific title for a Buddhist monk. Now here's the rub. While a Shaolin monk is, technically speaking, a Buddhist monk, there's this huge grey zone with the wuseng and biaoyanseng. Technically speaking, as LFJ points out, these classes of adherents are actually just secular disciples, not fully ordained bhikṣu. However, the definition of 'monk' is merely a male member of a monastic order. It is not bound by the tenets of Buddhism. It is a multicultural term. Out in the world at large, the wuseng and biaoyanseng are called Shaolin monks, even though they are not bhikṣu. So where does that leave the Shaolin order? And more specific to this discussion, where does that leave the non-Chinese Shaolin disicples? Heck, I'm a sujiadizi and I've performed kung fu at Shaolin for tourists. Can I start calling myself a Shaolin monk?*

This situation only really exists at Shaolin. Shaolin is very unique obviously.

*Actually I call myself the 'real fake monk' sometimes, mostly in honor of this situation. ;)

DamoY2K

01-15-2013, 10:54 AM

The real rub is the term 'monk' ... as LFJ points out, these classes of adherents are actually just secular disciples, not fully ordained bhikṣu ... however, the definition of 'monk' is merely a male member of a monastic order ... out in the world at large, the wuseng and biaoyanseng are called Shaolin monks, even though they are not bhikṣu ... Shaolin is very unique ...

Totally agree! :)

wenshu

01-15-2013, 12:11 PM

For example I've seen photos and videos of a few ceremonies (see links posted before) held in the Shaolin temple itself with the appropriate number of teachers and witnesses, where the disciples are subsequently also recognized by the temple as official representatives (directors of authorized Shaolin cultural centers etc). So a wuseng-type ceremony followed by wuseng-type recognition but with secular lives ..... a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps ..... :)

Where I'm from that is just a license to be an obese fame***** with a reputation for trying to take advantage of female students.

GeneChing

01-15-2013, 12:21 PM

...because my discipleship ceremony was within Shaolin Temple. Granted, there were only two Shaolin monks present (and one, my master, was a wuseng) and only two other witnesses (one was my shidi, who was indoctrinated right after me), but those female students don't need to know that, right? :rolleyes:

a new type of "hybrid" wuseng for the modern world perhaps The wuseng class is fairly unique to Shaolin and is already 'hybrid'.

wenshu

01-15-2013, 02:08 PM

Where are you from again, wenshu?...because my discipleship ceremony was within Shaolin Temple.

non fa niente

Kellen Bassette

01-15-2013, 07:43 PM

i wish one day shaolin temple will have monk soldiers again.

Wait for the USA to finish negotiating the final details of their new Henan Military base. :D

LFJ

01-15-2013, 08:23 PM

However, the definition of 'monk' is merely a male member of a monastic order.

And Sujiadizi are not members of the monastic order because by definition (Sujia) they haven't left home (Chujia) to live monastic lives. Wuseng are considered Chujiadizi. They are monastic members, yet their level of precept is still secular.

It is not bound by the tenets of Buddhism. It is a multicultural term.

I don't know. In Buddhist context, a monk is a very specific position. You can talk about whatever the term means in whatever language and culture, but in Buddhist context, even in Shaolin, a monk is specific although there are uniquely different classes. If you haven't taken full precepts in a proper ordination as a Heshang, or don't at least live a monastic life as a Wuseng, you aren't a monk by any stretch.

A Sujiadizi or former Wuseng living at home with wife and child... not a monk.

rett

01-16-2013, 12:32 AM

I think if you have already dealt with your 'baggage' then there is no need to become a monk. You are already past that stage. You can move straight on to the personal contemplation of a hermit. Becoming a monk is to give you that opportunity to shed this baggage.

Amongst my older teachers they say there is nothing to revere about monks. In times past monks were most often criminals, disgraced officials/officers/soldiers, orphans, *******s etc. and more rarely those seeking spirituality. Temples offered some form of legal sanctuary. The renown of Shaolin perhaps made it special though.

Sheng Yen writes about these attitudes. One of the reasons he made an effort to earn advanced degrees and encouraged his students to do the same was to try to improve the image of monks, at least in Taiwan. I believe he succeeded with that to a great extent.

Even among people from other Buddhist countries (such as Sri Lanka) you can hear people say that maybe only about 10% of monks are truly serious about devoting their life to the Dharma.

However I think it's worth considering that even historically there has been a great deal of reverence for true monks in Japan and China.

The problem has been just as much one of ignorant laypeople, who aren't interested in the Dharma and just want to employ a guy in a robe to chant at a funeral and things like that.

rett

01-16-2013, 12:58 AM

This might be interesting in the context of this thread's sub-topic of what it means to be a monk.

Sheng Yen and Jet Li interviewed on Chinese TV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y1VyJbsuss

GeneChing

01-16-2013, 03:09 PM

...but this is Shaolin we're talking about, and given Shaolin's history over the last few decades, what defines the monastic order has been loose. The abbot is trying to change that, trying to revert to these original precepts, but the problem is that many of the wuseng were defined as 'monk' during Shaolin's less 'official' years. Many of them still are defined as such by pop culture. While the abbot is trying to make change, trying to re-establish the Buddhism at Shaolin, those wuseng have made tremendous contributions to the propagation of Shaolin today and can't be just written off on this technicality, at least not quite yet. Give it a few more years perhaps.

That being said, what defines a Shaolin monk is more dubious than what is defined by Buddhism, and muddled even more so by the biaoyanseng and all the performance tours. This brings us back to the original question of non-Chinese Shaolin monks as many disciples are opening schools and doing performances. And their English/French/Italian or whatever language is better, so the media tends to pick up more about what they claim over what someone who was actually raised at Shaolin might say. It's all very bothersome, but I feel that it's getting cleared up, bit by bit.

LFJ

01-16-2013, 11:13 PM

Who is saying Wuseng are not monks? Current Wuseng are monastic members, so they are a class of monk in Shaolin, unlike Sujiadizi and don't exist in other Buddhist traditions, but their secular level of precepts doesn't mean they don't live monastic lives as part of the monastic order.

However, former Wuseng who lived monastic lives at Shaolin but now live secular lives no longer have anything that seals their position as monks. Their level of precept is secular, and they live secular lives. They are former monks. It's not about writing them off, but just calling it what it is. What made them monks was their monastic lives. Unlike a Heshang who might leave the monastery and travel, their full precepts mean they are monks wherever they go. A Wuseng who returns to secular life is just a Sujiadizi/Wushu dizi, as most of these non Chinese disciples are in the first place, having never been monks of any stretch.

The abbot has no reason to "revert to the original precepts" or "re-establish Buddhism at Shaolin" as if nothing but Wuseng were there before his ascension. The majority of the monks there are fully ordained Heshang and so were they in the past. Modern Wuseng were never as numerous as the Sengbing of centuries past.

Are you saying he's trying to abolish the Wuseng class altogether?

As for Biaoyanseng, the title makes their identity obvious. They are actors. It's a marketing tool and sort of dishonest if they don't make that clear in their performances where people think they are going to see the "Shaolin monks" from the monastery. They are monks like Jet Li was a monk, even if they take basic discipleship vows and receive the abbot's blessing. All that serves to do is sort of trademark the tours and make them official so they receive the profit.

GeneChing

01-17-2013, 10:32 AM

When the abbot took office, the number of biaoyanseng increased. He had to fortify his position, and there were rival factions (still are - temples aren't immune to internal politics - quite the opposite) so he got some outside help for the publicity tours. It was a dubious move, and perhaps not one that can be blamed directly upon the Abbot because during the transition, a lot was in play and many other forces took advantage of the chaos.

The abbot is not trying to dissolve the wuseng at all, but surely you've noticed that it's been all about the Yan generation lately.

My point about this is just that while you are correct about your definitions, LFJ, the popular opinion is quite different. It's just like how the dictionary definition of some words don't match the popular definition. And Shaolin is a part of the world, so it falls victim to popular opinion.

LFJ

01-17-2013, 10:41 PM

My point about this is just that while you are correct about your definitions, LFJ, the popular opinion is quite different. It's just like how the dictionary definition of some words don't match the popular definition. And Shaolin is a part of the world, so it falls victim to popular opinion.

I don't think it "falls victim" at all...

There are several classes of ordination at Shaolin, unique to them, and to my knowledge it has never been outlined on their official website, and I have to wonder why. Education and transparency would go a long way in repairing Shaolin's bad reputation from other Buddhist groups and folks worldwide who aren't familiar with its monastic order.

Instead, on their website they are always posting notices about fraudulent groups domestically and abroad putting on performances, selling medicines, fortune telling, etc. under the "Shaolin" banner. They attack these groups because they say it gives Shaolin a bad reputation, but it seems to me it's because they are cutting into the official Shaolin profit.

The latest notice put on their website even attacks these groups for donning the monastic robes as casual dress or using them as school uniforms, which mixes up monk and layman. I agree, but isn't Shaolin guilty of this itself?

It seems they don't care about defending their reputation unless it has direct correlation to cashflow in any direction, whether increasing their own or impeding others... to ultimately increase their own through "official" activities.

So, no... I don't think they are victims of anything except greed. Tightening the reins, re-discipleship under the abbot, all of it only serves to funnel the profits back home.

GeneChing

01-18-2013, 10:32 AM

By 'falls victim' I didn't mean Shaolin Temple. I meant the Shaolin diaspora on the whole.

Fraudulent Shaolin causes problems for the Temple's profits for sure, but it also damages Shaolin's name as a whole. That's a double edged sword. Shaolin Temple should do what it can to protect it's name. All Shaolin enthusiasts should do likewise. In part, that's what this thread is about as we're not questioning the skills of said non-Chinese Shaolin monks, we're questioning their legitimacy. Certainly someone can be a legitimate Shaolin master without being a monk. But to be a legitimate Shaolin monk, well, what does that mean? Do we apply the Buddhist precepts, the Shaolin official nod (and if so, from what year as that definition has changed?) or what is stated in popular press (not my criteria at all as you'll see by many posts on Shaolin tours I've made in the past here).

As for the robe issue, well, we sell robes (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-001.html) (:o) so I totally agree that's a bit possessive of the teachings (or at least, the fashion :rolleyes:)

HmorenoM

01-23-2013, 07:52 PM

Ok let me see if i get it

Shaolin Temple is a temple indeed (duh)... not a kung fu academy

The kung fu in the Shaolin Temple is just the "vehicle" the monks use to cultivalte their qi

So, a Shaolin monk, is not a kung fu master, a Shaolin Monk is... a monk who knows kung fu (and is very good in it)

There are some "types" of discipleship (i think i don't get this part):

a) Wuseng
b)Sujiadizi
c)Wenseng
d)Wushu dizi
e)Hesheng

The difference between these is the religious ceremony and taking some vows

Talking about the "non-chinese shaolin monks" (no racism), if we already know that not all of them are buddhists, why do they have a buddhist name like "Shi X X" if that's a religious name? So if i'm a disciple of a shaolin monk, am i a religious disciple or a "martial" disciple?

Am i right? if someone could explain me the "discipleship" stuff please

LFJ

01-24-2013, 03:50 AM

Not all Shaolin Monks practice martial arts!

Heshang and Wenseng are names for the same thing, a fully ordained/scholarly monk. In Shaolin they may or may not practice martial arts to various degrees.

Wushu Dizi has nothing to do with Buddhist discipleship. It's from Confucianism. Many CMA systems have this sort of martial discipleship. One can be a Wushu Dizi under some master and be at any or no level of Buddhist ordination. It's a separate thing.

The levels of ordination/precepts/discipleship in Shaolin are explained here: Shaolin Monasticism & Discipleship (http://shaolinchancity.blogspot.com/2008/12/shaolin-monasticism-discipleship_944.html)

As for people not being Buddhist but undergoing Buddhist discipleship ceremonies and receiving Dharma-names... well, you tell me why they do it... :p

HmorenoM

01-24-2013, 07:19 AM

Not all Shaolin Monks practice martial arts!

Ok, i knew that, and thanks :)

Heshang and Wenseng are names for the same thing, a fully ordained/scholarly monk. In Shaolin they may or may not practice martial arts to various degrees.

Perfect, so i got it right... they are monks basically, in the religious context, the kung fu is just the "vehicle" for cultivating their energy

Wushu Dizi has nothing to do with Buddhist discipleship. It's from Confucianism. Many CMA systems have this sort of martial discipleship. One can be a Wushu Dizi under some master and be at any or no level of Buddhist ordination. It's a separate thing.

About this... Confucianism? i think i missed something... Shaolin Temple is a Buddhist temple... but Confucianism is a philosophical/ethical "system", like Daoism... are confucianism and daoism something to do in the temple? (i'm a little ignorant in this, so forgive me if i mix some things i shouldn't)

The levels of ordination/precepts/discipleship in Shaolin are explained here: Shaolin Monasticism & Discipleship (http://shaolinchancity.blogspot.com/2008/12/shaolin-monasticism-discipleship_944.html)

Thanks, just thanks... i have a new bookmark :)

As for people not being Buddhist but undergoing Buddhist discipleship ceremonies and receiving Dharma-names... well, you tell me why they do it... :p

LOL idk... i hope we can know more about this someday

Thank you LFJ, that was very helpful

GeneChing

01-24-2013, 03:25 PM

... is that there is some fluidity between the disciple categories. A martial disciple may one day opt to take monk vows. A monk might 'disrobe' meaning to forsake their vows (see Should Warrior Monks Disrobe? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=900), which is the complete transcript of my article of the same title in the 2010 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=892)). While many have voiced criticism against the biaoyanseng, many of the present heshang did some time as a biaoyanseng. You have to stay in the moment with an individual when it comes to this. That's Shaolin impermanence for you.

As for people not being Buddhist but undergoing Buddhist discipleship ceremonies and receiving Dharma-names... well, you tell me why they do it... :p As you mentioned, there is a martial discipleship which is very common and does not necessarily have a connection to Buddhism. However Shaolin descends from a Buddhist tradition, so a martial discipleship into the Shaolin lineage might include some Buddhist trappings. Such is the nature of China and Chinese religions; things often get mixed. I could see even a BSL discipleship retaining some Buddhist rituals. As for the Dharma-name, well, it's not unheard of for martial disciples to take an en familia name. Again, within Shaolin lineage Kung Fu clans, those Shaolin trappings might remain. Buddhist rules only apply to those that follow them. Just look at some of the vows in the Tiandianhui and Tong initiation rituals. If a master stands outside of that, he can make up any sort of disciple name he pleases, something like Shi Hengdarth perhaps.

Mind you, I'm not saying that this is proper or improper. It just is.

The latest notice put on their website even attacks these groups for donning the monastic robes as casual dress or using them as school uniforms, which mixes up monk and layman. Do you have a link to this? I'm afraid I haven't been keeping up with the website.

HmorenoM

01-24-2013, 04:29 PM

... is that there is some fluidity between the disciple categories. A martial disciple may one day opt to take monk vows.

A monk might 'disrobe' meaning to forsake their vows

Like Shi Yan Ming? or Li Peng? (I think Li Peng never was a monk but... whatever)

While many have voiced criticism against the biaoyanseng, many of the present heshang did some time as a biaoyanseng.

Ok, then "biaoyangseng" is a type of discipleship too? or is just a "title"... as you said

the biaoyanseng. These are the monks that go on the 'official' Shaolin tours. Technically, they are a subset of wuseng, although they tend to be contracted strictly for the Shaolin stage shows. (...)

Ok, if i got it right, wuseng are warrior monks (so they are not fully ordained, they take just 5 vows: no killing, no stealing, no sexual misconduct, no wrong speech, no intoxicants)

(...)The biaoyenseng are much less committed. They're really just wushu performers at heart. The 'official' ones do take vows, usually under Abbot Yongxin so they're usually Yan generation, but the vows are only of a honorary nature and the title should be discarded after the tour is done. Of course, they don't necessarily do that. (...)

(...)they usually have all the traditional forms. They might not know the applications, but they have the forms.

So, is biaoyangseng a "type" of discipleship... like a... "softer" "relaxed" discipleship?... About those "official" ones... if they take vows, does that makes them wenseng? or being a biaoyangseng, even when is a subset of wuseng, doesn't mean that you have to take vows

You have to stay in the moment with an individual when it comes to this. That's Shaolin impermanence for you.

As you mentioned, there is a martial discipleship which is very common and does not necessarily have a connection to Buddhism. However Shaolin descends from a Buddhist tradition, so a martial discipleship into the Shaolin lineage might include some Buddhist trappings. Such is the nature of China and Chinese religions; things often get mixed.

That was very helpful

Just look at some of the vows in the Tiandianhui and Tong initiation rituals. If a master stands outside of that, he can make up any sort of disciple name he pleases, something like Shi Hengdarth perhaps.

I still don't get the different ceremonies and initiation rituals part :confused:

Mind you, I'm not saying that this is proper or improper. It just is.

That's important i think...

I'll read the article right now

Thanks Gene, and LFJ ;)

GeneChing

01-24-2013, 04:45 PM

Like Shi Yan Ming? or Li Peng? (I think Li Peng never was a monk but... whatever) I think Shi Yanming (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=99) still claims to be a Shaolin monk. Zhang Lipeng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144) formally disrobed. He was part of the wuseng before the Abbot, when Shaolin was more chaotic. Both Yanming and Zhang Lipeng were part that first generation of wuseng/biaoyanseng following the Cultural Revolution. They represented Shaolin during a very lean period and had to do everything: performing modern wushu, teaching traditional kung fu and answering challenges. Other monks may have disrobed but might still take up the cloth for demonstrations.

Ok, then "biaoyangseng" is a type of discipleship too? or is just a "title"... as you said It's more like a slang than a title. A biaoyanseng usually takes some vows and, of course, shaves, but those vows are often very temporary, just held for the duration of the performance tour. Essentially, they took cursory vows but then disrobe once their job is done. This practice is declining now at Shaolin, but a few years ago, right around when the Abbot was inaugurated, it was quite rampant. That wasn't that long ago, so it created a huge grey zone, which will hopefully fade with time. Nowadays the official biaoyanseng are more monastic. Note that biaoyanseng pretty unique to Shaolin as other Chinese Buddhist monks don't really do shows like Kung Fu demos. I have heard the term used in regards to some chanting monks, but I'm not sure that was a proper usage of the word and it was used by someone that was Shaolin-influenced.

LFJ

01-24-2013, 10:53 PM

The latest notice put on their website even attacks these groups for donning the monastic robes as casual dress or using them as school uniforms, which mixes up monk and layman.Do you have a link to this? I'm afraid I haven't been keeping up with the website.

I read this notice in the Chinese version of the website and just looked up the English version of the notice. The English doesn't have this line.

English: Statement of China Songshan Shaolin Temple (http://shaolin.org.cn/templates/EN_T_newS_list/index.aspx?nodeid=295&page=ContentPage&contentid=6651)
Chinese: 中国嵩山少林寺声明 (http://shaolin.org.cn/templates/T_newS_list/index.aspx?nodeid=24&page=ContentPage&contentid=6308)

The line from the Chinese notice states: "有的将僧服当成校服或便装穿着，混淆僧俗仪表"

"Some use monastic garments as school uniforms or casual dress attire, blurring the appearance of monks and laymen."

LFJ

01-24-2013, 10:59 PM

It's more like a slang than a title. A biaoyanseng usually takes some vows and, of course, shaves, but those vows are often very temporary, just held for the duration of the performance tour.

This was merely to make them an official performance troupe, so that other unofficial groups couldn't perform under the Shaolin banner.

If someone is serious about taking Buddhist vows, they won't just take temporary vows to join an official martial arts performance troupe.

HmorenoM

01-25-2013, 07:33 AM

I read this notice in the Chinese version of the website and just looked up the English version of the notice. The English doesn't have this line.

English: Statement of China Songshan Shaolin Temple (http://shaolin.org.cn/templates/EN_T_newS_list/index.aspx?nodeid=295&page=ContentPage&contentid=6651)
Chinese: 中国嵩山少林寺声明 (http://shaolin.org.cn/templates/T_newS_list/index.aspx?nodeid=24&page=ContentPage&contentid=6308)

The line from the Chinese notice states: "有的将僧服当成校服或便装穿着，混淆僧俗仪表"

"Some use monastic garments as school uniforms or casual dress attire, blurring the appearance of monks and laymen."

Excuse me LFJ... it's me again asking stuff :o

Are those "monastic garments" the orange/yellow/gray uniforms that we see in some Shaolin schools?

LFJ

01-25-2013, 07:40 AM

Yes. The various monastic robes have a double collar. There is the outer robe that folds left over right, then the button up style which is work clothing. Both with the double collar.

Strictly speaking, they should be reserved for monastics, either monks or nuns. There is another Chinese robe for laymen Buddhist practitioners, but ironically I've never seen them worn by the laity in Shaolin. Other Buddhists sects tend to adhere more closely to this kind of thing, and based on that notice, it seems Shaolin is trying to correct it as well.

GeneChing

01-25-2013, 12:21 PM

...would it bother you if Shaolin Temple was to propose a grading system where Shaolin students wore monastic garments that were color-coded designated by their level of achievement like ranking belts (http://www.martialartsmart.com/ranking-belts.html) and that this system, while allegedly including some Buddhist practice alongside the martial arts, would be open to non-Buddhists?

Just asking...for now... ;)

The English doesn't have this line. That's funny. So typical!

This was merely to make them an official performance troupe, so that other unofficial groups couldn't perform under the Shaolin banner.

If someone is serious about taking Buddhist vows, they won't just take temporary vows to join an official martial arts performance troupe. Sure, right, if someone is serious about their vows. How does one quantify seriousness? Nevertheless, temp vows have been taken by biaoyanseng to make those official troupes. Technically speaking, they can call themselves Shaolin monks. Some of them went on to become fully ordained. Others disrobed as soon as they got off tour. It's tricky business when you start making broad distinctions and stop looking at the individuals.

HmorenoM

01-25-2013, 12:30 PM

pazman

01-25-2013, 12:56 PM

GeneChing

01-25-2013, 01:05 PM

How do you determine "achievement" in Shaolin gongfu?
Through examinations. Sounds sort of like belt exams. There were examinations at the 2012 European Shaolin Culture Festival. (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64462)

DamoY2K

01-25-2013, 01:07 PM

pazman

01-25-2013, 01:20 PM

Through examinations. Sounds sort of like belt exams. There were examinations at the 2012 European Shaolin Culture Festival. (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64462)

I guess this leads naturally to the question: what's on the exam?:p

Lower duan rankings (in China) in "traditional" arts now include knowing, at least superficially, a few applications.

Lower duan rankings for Sanda, sadly, now include a sanda taolu.:o

HmorenoM

01-25-2013, 02:56 PM

Ultimately the "moral of the story" is that you cannot define a - Shaolin - "monk" just by its name or robe, Chinese or Western.

Shaolin itself always had - and always will IMO - a great mix of "characters" with varied backgrounds and changing roles ..... Chan teaches impermanence, so ..... ;)

In the end what always makes the difference are conduct and competence, regardless of titles and robes, at the Shaolin Temple as well as in any Shaolin school around the world.

I couldn't agree more with this

(...)
Lower duan rankings (in China) in "traditional" arts now include knowing, at least superficially, a few applications.

Lower duan rankings for Sanda, sadly, now include a sanda taolu.:o

Sanda taolu? :confused:

pazman

01-25-2013, 05:28 PM

Sanda taolu? :confused:

I should qualify that by saying that was 2 years ago and it didn't seem like a popular decision at the time.

At the sports university where I worked they started teaching it in the Intro to Sanda class for non-majors. They had to learn it before they even got to hitting mitts or hitting the heavy bag, and it took up the first third of the semester. Absolute disaster.:(

It was kind of like pre-arranged shadowboxing with a couple of break falls thrown in, and ending in a "snazzy" pose.

Gene, if you were King of Shaolin, what would you include in the examinations?