Daoism in your journey

[mig]

Since many of practitioners seem to be knowledgeable in Kung fu including internal arts, I wonder how many are interested in Daoism and how the religion/philosophy impact your practice in all aspects. As a westerner do you rely more on the western version of all the Daoist reference books or traditional canons.



Thanks,



Mig

[mawali]

Personally, I do not but I see parallels within my own cultural sphere that is on par with Daoism.
1. Be one or Be the One
2. What you sow, you will reap.
3. BE
4. on telling reality from BS (taken form Marine Corps boot camp DI, sh*t in one hand and wish in the other and tell me which one fills up first.

:D I boiled all the philosophies into 4 simple points. I am a simpleton at heart and hate drama!

[mig]

Personally, I do not but I see parallels within my own cultural sphere that is on par with Daoism.
1. Be one or Be the One
2. What you sow, you will reap.
3. BE
4. on telling reality from BS (taken form Marine Corps boot camp DI, sh*t in one hand and wish in the other and tell me which one fills up first.

:D I boiled all the philosophies into 4 simple points. I am a simpleton at heart and hate drama!

From what readings your understanding is based at least for the first three points? Just curious. Thanks

[RickMatz]

Philosophy practiced is the goal of learning. - Thoreau

I recommend The Disputers of the Tao by Angus C. Graham to understand the antecedents and how Daoism came to be.

My own understanding in a nutshell is that like western science, philosophical Daoism is the study of how the world around us works, and the Daoist seeks to put his own actions in accord with the movements of the universe to be both more efficient and effective.

I've expanded on some re occurring themes and topics having to do with the practical application of Daoism to our (well mine anyway) lives and put them into an eBook which is available on Amazon right here (http://www.amazon.com/Cook-Dings-Kitchen-Exploration-ebook/dp/B00APMODI8/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_3_AW7V).

[Scott R. Brown]

Since many of practitioners seem to be knowledgeable in Kung fu including internal arts, I wonder how many are interested in Daoism and how the religion/philosophy impact your practice in all aspects. As a westerner do you rely more on the western version of all the Daoist reference books or traditional canons.

Thanks, Mig

I have been observing the principles of Tao for nigh on 40 years now. It is part of my daily life and I hope pretty well integrated into it.

The theory behind Philosophical Taoist thought is to observe the universe in its functions and then accommodate oneself to the principles observed.

The only caution I would give is to keep in mind that Tao is composed of Yin AND Yang. Many who practice the soft arts. because of the principles taught in these arts, tend to believe all life should be lived primarily according to the principles of Yin. This is only living according to half of Tao. There is a time to apply Yin principles and a time to apply Yang principles. An effective student of Tao learns to apply the appropriate principle to the circumstance.

In fact, it is actually impossible not to live by the principles of Tao. We all automatically conform to those principles, because existence is founded upon them. However, there are some principles that provide for generally more beneficent effects than others.

What is important is to know when to apply Yin principles and when to apply Yang principles to their greatest effect for the preferred result.

[mawali]

From what readings your understanding is based at least for the first three points? Just curious. Thanks

It is more of a personal, educational, social, spiritual journey and experience.
10 people will all read the same book and all have different perceptions or reality based on that same book. No different from 10 people seeing the same crime being committed and variances in their story will differ.

What has been your experience and insight on the matter?

[mig]

It is more of a personal, educational, social, spiritual journey and experience.
10 people will all read the same book and all have different perceptions or reality based on that same book. No different from 10 people seeing the same crime being committed and variances in their story will differ.

What has been your experience and insight on the matter?

I am trying to understand the daoism journey from the martial art practitioner point of view as it was in old days in China. Unfortunately, little I know that old sifus or sikungs really knew or understood the essence of Daoism. It is known now that Daoism and Buddhism concepts have been used in many styles but I don't know to which extent. In today's world we have so much information that we can learn from the sources and have better interpretation. Unfortunately, many translations are not always accurate and everybody makes their own Dao and very few follow the principles of Daoism from the original source. I understand we all have different perspectives from our experiences in life although I am referring to the old texts interpreted today with its applications in the martial art world.
In my experience, I have been Daoist without knowing it and now that I am reading the old canons I relate much better although the quality of translations I've checked don't have clear explanations. Again I am interested in reading from those who practice martial arts and not necessarily from a philosophical point of view.

Thanks,

Mig

[Scott R. Brown]

Since you are interested in reading about Tao from the oldest sources I recommend to you The Nei Yeh, it is the oldest known Taoist text to date. It is thought to predate the Lao Tzu.

If you intend to lead your life according to the principles of Tao and think that the way to do this is by reading the oldest original texts and to follow those teachings, you will be in error.

Tao is not something that was defined 2,000 years ago and that is it. It is here and now. The people from the past did nothing different that those of us who follow Tao do today. They wrote about what they observed, according to their world views, historical perspective, scientific understanding, etc. They are neither more nor less accurate than anyone who lives today. They did not define Tao, they described what they saw and experienced. If they wrote about the taste of an orange, it would not taste any different today than it did 2,000 years ago!

[RickMatz]

This article at Kung Fu Tea (http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/01/14/lives-of-the-chinese-martial-artists-4-sun-lutangs-unified-theory-of-the-chinese-martial-arts-daoist-spirituality-health-and-boxing-part-iii/)addresses how Daoism came to be associated with Chinese martial arts.

[David Jamieson]

I subscribe to no one particular religion or philosophy.
But I have been exposed to Taoism for a long time.

Part and parcel to a Father who loved esoterica, philosophy, tai chi etc etc.

To me, Taoism is being in, and maintaining a connection to the greater reality.
Awareness of it and keeping harmony with it to the best of your understanding.

Beyond that, it's anyone's game. :-)

As a Shaolin Kung Fu Practitioner, I have equal interest in Chan or Zen practice and do that as well. It is similar in intention and probably why Taoists and Chan Buddhists could see eye to eye more readily I suppose.

All the rest have good lessons as well. Best to take what one can from the whole of the table.

[SimonM]

I forgot the Tao.

[Scott R. Brown]

I forgot the Tao.

It's in your back pocket.

[David Jamieson]

It's in your back pocket.

It was until that grubby beggar stole it.

[Scott R. Brown]

I forgot the Tao.


It's in your back pocket.


It was until that grubby beggar stole it.

Maybe he thought it belonged to him.

[taai gihk yahn]

Maybe he thought it belonged to him.

that's impossible - it's mine:


TAO©®™TGY2013


see?

[Scott R. Brown]

that's impossible - it's mine:


TAO©®™TGY2013


see?

Well, I'll be hornswaggled! :(

[mig]

Is this part of your Dao?

So does your experience is based on daily life lessons or have you ever read an interpretation of the old Daoist texts? If you have then what are the resources you've used and how do you apply them both in your life and in your martial arts practice.

Thanks,

Mig

[Scott R. Brown]

Is this part of your Dao?

The most important thing to realize, and I mean realize not know, not understand, but to directly see, is that there is nothing that is apart from Tao!

Everything is part of "your daily Dao!

This is something that should not be read from a book and then believed, it is something one should "see directly" for themselves.

Right choices, wrong choices, moving with Tao, moving against Tao, is ALL moving with Tao!

You CANNOT move against Tao under any circumstances at any time under any conditions.

So, the answer to your question is YES, it is part of my daily DAO, but it also a part of your's and everyone else's too!


So does your experience is based on daily life lessons or have you ever read an interpretation of the old Daoist texts? If you have then what are the resources you've used and how do you apply them both in your life and in your martial arts practice.

Thanks,

Mig
I have read and studied most, or all, of the Taoist philosophical texts, and many of the alchemical ones translated into English (don't ask me which ones, of the alchemical ones, I found them of next to no value, so I mostly ignore them and forget them).

I started my interest in Tao at age 15, I will be 54 in a few months. In the old days we mostly had a few translations of The Lao Tzu, The Chuang Tzu and Sun Tzu, that was it. Later we got some Guan Tzu and a few others. The latest I am aware of is the Nei Yeh which is actually buried within the Guan Tzu.

These texts, in my opinion, should be used mostly as a finger pointing one to Tao in order for one to directly experience the principles first hand. When you read a text and attempt to understand it your knowledge is strictly secondhand or worse. It is like reading a book about swimming or swimming yourself. The person who wrote the book knows about swimming, the person who swims knows about swimming, but the person who read the book about swimming only knows what someone else wrote about swimming. He has no direct knowledge of swimming. He cannot be an expert on swimming no matter how many books about swimming he reads. He is only an expert on what others have written about swimming. He will never know as much as someone who swims.

That is not so say there is no value in reading about swimming or Tao. Only that reading a book is not equal to direct experience!

The Yin-Yang, in my opinion symbolizes just about all you need to know about Tao. If you study this symbol and delve deeply into is meaning you will be served well.
_____________________________________

To me me of the most important principles of Tao, just off the top of my head here are:

1) Conservation of energy: Generally, only use the amount of energy necessary to accomplish your goal. This does not mean one should never use excessive energy, ever. There may be occasions when this is appropriate. Knowing how much energy to expend and under what circumstances is something that takes time and practice.

Energy includes physical, emotional, intellectual and material (i.e. gasoline, electricity, etc. ) energy.

2) Balance: I prefer the term equilibrium. Balance is NOT a still point of no movement. It is the rhythmic alternation of Yin and Yang principles. There is a time and place for each. Learn when and where to apply which principle to best affect according to your goal. Excessiveness at times is also a part of maintaining equilibrium. For one should understand that equilibrium is the alternating between two complimentary, yet contrasting, (not conflicting) principles. Equilibrium/balance can also be taken to extreme. So, at times extremes of Yin or Yang will occur and this is still part of maintaining equilibrium and so is acceptable.

So, sometimes complex may be better than simple, even though The Lao Tzu appears to favor the simple. Soft is NOT always better than hard. Tao is about the balancing of Yin and Yang, not favoring one over the other. If you purposely favor one over the other you CANNOT obtain equilibrium. But since Tao always tends towards equilibrium you will develop some compensating behaviors/effects for excessiveness of one principle over the other including the excessiveness of attempting to maintain perfect equilibrium/balance between the two.

Also, however, each person has their own natural tendencies. So, some people naturally tend to Yin principles in some or all of their actions and thoughts, while others naturally tend towards Yang principles. These occur according to the individual’s personal Tao, so to speak. This is quite natural. Both tendencies bring with them benefits and detriments. This too is part of Tao.

Whether one chooses to balance out their personal tendencies is up to them according to their personal goals, but there is no necessary right or wrong in their choice. Just accept the consequences that attend your choice is all, because all actions, behaviors come with consequences.

3) Observe and learn directly from Tao as you move with it through your daily life: Use books and discussions with others as inspiration and guides, but learn to directly experience for yourself and become your own expert.

4) All actions/behaviors have consequences, Cause and Effect: if you are unhappy with the consequences/effect, change the action/behavior, cause, that created the consequence.

I am sure I can come up with more, I just live according to these principles, I don’t preoccupy myself with them. They are part of my personal Tao as I apply what I have observed and learned through experience.

[ShaolinDan]

I like the Wilhelm translation of the IChing.

[David Jamieson]

Sure is a whole lotta talk about nothing going on here.

:p

anyway.... 3 stages in life

1. Confucian - you are the scholar, learning, observing, making the connections

2. You are a Buddhist, you see there is more than constructs, there is something other.

3. You are a Taoist, you have stopped worrying and caring about constructs this brings you contentment. Then you die.

find what you like in those 3. But you'll likely go through them yourself if you aren't well on your way already.

get it? "way"? :p

[SimonM]

It was until that grubby beggar stole it.

Nawh, that was just my worldly goods when I stopped for noodles in Dengfeng.