Some observations on TCMA

[jdhowland]

I'm going somewhere with this--I think.

For now, I'll just post some observations and welcome comments and criticism.




Traditional Chinese fighting arts are propagated through a social network--the men-pai systems.

These societies are based on both Confucian and practical values. They allow for a recognition of authority and for some degree of control over a tradition. The traditions and lineages are cultural constructs that may be as important to the membership as any actual skills gained by participation.

The ultimate test of the methods taught within these systems is personal combat, whether it be a life-or-death struggle or challenging in a public arena.

Success within a traditional system may be based more (or entirely) upon recognition as a lineage-holder than proven skills as a fighter.

A fighter may do very well in his field regardless of any standing within a pai or men.

A fighter with "bad" or sloppy technique can still win over a fighter with superior skill in certain techniques, e.g.: a "brawler" over a picture-perfect "boxer."

The traditional systems have developed high-level skills and pedagogy to support their schools and traditions. Perhaps the greatest asset of these traditonal societies is that they preserve well-structured systems of training and discovery.

[Bernard]

I see most Chinese martial arts school as Physical Culture rather than fighting gyms. Where I'm from, most of the old Chinese martial art clubs don't practice like how they use to. It was a lot rougher back then and you would need to keep a stock of that bruise liniment. Today its more for the kids, lion dance and all.

Today, you would need to gather the students who are serious about fighting and have them train their preferred techniques with harder contact on their own.

[jdhowland]

I see most Chinese martial arts school as Physical Culture rather than fighting gyms. Where I'm from, most of the old Chinese martial art clubs don't practice like how they use to. It was a lot rougher back then and you would need to keep a stock of that bruise liniment. Today its more for the kids, lion dance and all.

Today, you would need to gather the students who are serious about fighting and have them train their preferred techniques with harder contact on their own.

This is one of the points I was hoping someone would make. "How they used to" implies a recognition that these societies once gave higher priority to fighting skills, but there are other elements that preserve some of the structure of the school in a different context.

[Bernard]

A good teacher can pass on great techniques through forms practice I feel. For example, there's a tai chi technique (I can't remember the name of that certain Chen tai chi posture) that pulls an opponent off balance by grabbing the wrist and elbow, but many people who perform that posture in the form have their hands spaced out too far apart as if they're doing the technique on a giant!

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=Bernard;1205743]A good teacher can pass on great techniques through forms practice I feel...QUOTE]

So even if a system is incomplete it still retains value in what is passed on structurally?

I tend to agree. My first sifu said that every teacher will show you what he wants you to learn, but it is up to you to fill in the gaps (what he didn't know or held back from teaching). This can be done with enough experience.

I think this is where training in a traditional system has an advantage over going it alone. Past experience is built into the structure of the training.

Two of my teachers strongly disagreed, believing that only those with considerable fighting experience can truly reveal a system. I see the point in this, but the fighting experience doesn't have to come from the same school, and there are many problems associated with sparring only within the same "style."

Can a system that has lacked real fighting experience for a couple of generations be returned to its combative roots?

[EarthDragon]

I see most Chinese martial arts school as Physical Culture rather than fighting gyms. Where I'm from, most of the old Chinese martial art clubs don't practice like how they use to. It was a lot rougher back then and you would need to keep a stock of that bruise liniment. Today its more for the kids, lion dance and all.

where are you from? this a is not the case with a lot of the schools I have visited but there are a lot that do however I find this is gross assumption. I personally teach fighters. We don't teach kids we don't wear silk uniforms we just train kung fu. 8 step is a viscous fighting system through and through.

I have taught fighter who have won in the UFC and the USMTA ans well as full contact tough man matches.

I do however preserve the culture as I teach traditionally in the language all in Chinese, I have not modified or changed any of the methods other than to update certain techns and I preserved the health side as well learning bone setting tui na acupuncture, qigong and taji

[Bernard]

where are you from? this a is not the case with a lot of the schools I have visited but there are a lot that do however I find this is gross assumption. I personally teach fighters. We don't teach kids we don't wear silk uniforms we just train kung fu. 8 step is a viscous fighting system through and through.

I have taught fighter who have won in the UFC and the USMTA ans well as full contact tough man matches.

I do however preserve the culture as I teach traditionally in the language all in Chinese, I have not modified or changed any of the methods other than to update certain techns and I preserved the health side as well learning bone setting tui na acupuncture, qigong and taji

Well I did say "most" and not "all" Personally I'm glad there are schools like yours.

It seems among the Chinese instructors of the clubs I referred to, their focus changed over the years. While this saddens me, I came to respect their choice. I believe they wanted to teach Chinese children (non-Chinese children are welcome as well) values through Chinese Physical culture and not emphasize so much on fighting.

[mooyingmantis]

Success within a traditional system may be based more (or entirely) upon recognition as a lineage-holder than proven skills as a fighter.

Very sad, but true in some systems.

[-N-]

The traditions and lineages are cultural constructs that may be as important to the membership as any actual skills gained by participation..

Success within a traditional system may be based more (or entirely) upon recognition as a lineage-holder than proven skills as a fighter.

Lineage without skill is an embarrassment. Better to have no lineage than to claim one and not be able uphold the standard of skill. That is the traditional view.

Old school teachers have told their students not to start fights. Not necessarily because of peace and harmony. But because they did not want it known that they were the teacher of such a poor student.

Traditional martial arts that have lost their tradition and their combat skills have nothing left but to rest on past achievements of their ancestors.

In this modern time of instant gratification and delicate self esteem, wannabees use lineage to represent themselves and self promote, rather than themselves representing the standard of their lineage.

There was a reason for teachers granting discipleship or expelling a student, and not necessarily political as it has turned into in modern times.

[-N-]

I believe they wanted to teach Chinese children (non-Chinese children are welcome as well) values through Chinese Physical culture and not emphasize so much on fighting.

I use fighting, and the discipline to suffer through the fight training to teach Chinese children Chinese values. Others and adults have been welcome as well. The Chinese children were the most successful. The head start from their tiger moms made a difference.

Suffer and endure in order to achieve. Discipline through martial dance is one type of discipline. Going up against adult blackbelts at open mat sparring, getting the wind knocked out of you 10 times(I counted) on your first day, and going back to deliver your own brand of pain is another type of discipline. His offense was excellent. His defense was not. He had tears in his eyes, but never lost composure, and went back in for more.

[SPJ]

Traditional martial arts that have lost their tradition and their combat skills have nothing left but to rest on past achievements of their ancestors.



History is a big part as always.

Lineage is a convenient way to group schools.

We may trace our learning from our teachers.

And our teachers' teachers.

etc.

That is history, too.

Students are just students.

There are good fighters and there also many not so good.

That goes to all schools of all lineages.

:cool:

[-N-]

A good teacher can pass on great techniques through forms practice I feel. For example, there's a tai chi technique (I can't remember the name of that certain Chen tai chi posture) that pulls an opponent off balance by grabbing the wrist and elbow, but many people who perform that posture in the form have their hands spaced out too far apart as if they're doing the technique on a giant!

Doesn't that just mean that many people have not been able to learn great techniques through forms practice alone?

That's how hippie Tie Chee got invented.

After teaching us form and it's applications, my teacher lectured us that the form is useless if we didn't train the techniques(against each other) until we owned them.

[Robinhood]

It all depends on level of the teacher, any move will work if you are at a high skill level, the problem comes from people that are at a low skill level and don't know it. Thus their art seems to not work and their students are left at their skill level or usually at a lower level. Thus lies the evolution of most commercial styles.

I.E. Don't follow a style, but find a teacher that can pass on a path that leads to a high level, not a teacher with a high level of wasted time and effort with little to no results.

[-N-]

History is a big part as always.

Lineage is a convenient way to group schools.

We may trace our learning from our teachers.

And our teachers' teachers.

etc.

That is history, too.

Students are just students.

There are good fighters and there also many not so good.

That goes to all schools of all lineages.

:cool:

If there are no fight skills, then isn't it just a martial flavored social club?

I would call that "formerly traditional".

[-N-]

the problem comes from people that are at a low skill level and don't know it. Thus their art seems to not work and their students are left at their skill level or usually at a lower level. Thus lies the evolution of most commercial styles.

So sad. So true.

Or more like they think their art works, but it doesn't. And it continues to devolve with each generation.

[Bernard]

Doesn't that just mean that many people have not been able to learn great techniques through forms practice alone?

That's how hippie Tie Chee got invented.

After teaching us form and it's applications, my teacher lectured us that the form is useless if we didn't train the techniques(against each other) until we owned them.

True. Usage training and forms practice should always go hand in hand. Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

[bawang]

These societies are based on both Confucian and practical values.


tcma societies follow an ancient philosophy called legalism.



Success within a traditional system may be based more (or entirely) upon recognition as a lineage-holder than proven skills as a fighter.


in history sometimes the culture focused on fighting, sometimes it emphasized on aesthetics and performance. tradition is what you make of it.

tcma is more than fighting or performing.

[YouKnowWho]

A fighter with "bad" or sloppy technique can still win over a fighter with superior skill in certain techniques, ...

This sentence make no sense. There are only techniques that work and techniques that don't work. There are no such thing as good techniques or bad techniques.

[bawang]

This sentence make no sense. There are only techniques that work and techniques that don't work. There are no such thing as good techniques or bad techniques.

good technique wont work if you are weak or cowardly. fake kung fu claims a weak cowardly man can defeat a brave strong man with the proper technique, mainly bruce lee era.

[YouKnowWho]

good technique wont work if you are weak or cowardly.
You can't call your technique good if you don't have any of the following:

- good timing,
- recognize opportunity,
- cut in through the right angle,
- strong power, and
- good balance.

If you are weak -> you don't have strong power.
If you are a coward -> your timing may be wrong.

[EarthDragon]

You can't call your technique good if you don't have any of the following:

- good timing,
- recognize opportunity,
- cut in through the right angle,
- strong power, and
- good balance.

When I was learning Goju, we had techniques that had all the above characteristics, however when I began learning mantis, I realized that many of the Goju techniques like that of funakoshis shotokahn, they were not complex or intricate enough to overcome many of the counters locks and traps of the praying mantis.

so higher level systems will make lover level systems, techniques look bad

[bawang]

When I was learning Goju, we had techniques that had all the above characteristics, however when I began learning mantis, I realized that many of the Goju techniques like that of funakoshis shotokahn, they were not complex or intricate enough to overcome many of the counters locks and traps of the praying mantis.

so higher level systems will make lover level systems, techniques look bad

goju is just as "complex" as mantis. youre still training mantis with the mindset of a japan fetishist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJY2pgR9r44

[-N-]

good technique wont work if you are weak or cowardly. fake kung fu claims a weak cowardly man can defeat a brave strong man with the proper technique, mainly bruce lee era.

That's why there are so many "sparring" videos that look like flinchy slap fights.

[bawang]

That's why there are so many "sparring" videos that look like flinchy slap fights.

because they are fake kung fu.

[SteveLau]

Jdhowland,

What you said are very much true. That is why I love the modern CMA schools. They emphasize on developing fighting skill, without neglecting the health promotion aspect and good ethics.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Kellen Bassette]

Can a system that has lacked real fighting experience for a couple of generations be returned to its combative roots?

Absolutely. If two people began training the apps for real and testing them on each other, they will learn how to fight with their system.
Shifu can't give that to you even if he has it. You have to take it; and you can take it whether he gives it to you or not. It's right there if you want it.

[Kellen Bassette]

Lineage without skill is an embarrassment. Better to have no lineage than to claim one and not be able uphold the standard of skill. That is the traditional view.



This bears repeating.

[Kellen Bassette]

When I was learning Goju, we had techniques that had all the above characteristics, however when I began learning mantis, I realized that many of the Goju techniques like that of funakoshis shotokahn, they were not complex or intricate enough to overcome many of the counters locks and traps of the praying mantis.

so higher level systems will make lover level systems, techniques look bad

No. A better fighter will make a lesser fighters techniques look bad. No matter how many complex techniques someone knows, they will look bad if they can't stop a jab from landing.

[jdhowland]

bawang;1205780]tcma societies follow an ancient philosophy called legalism.

Yes. This is the source of what I meant by "practical values." It provides the contract. Confucian values provide some of the social structure.

Legalism is also shown in the prevalence of posted rules of conduct in many schools.





in history sometimes the culture focused on fighting, sometimes it emphasized on aesthetics and performance. tradition is what you make of it.

tcma is more than fighting or performing.

Ah, now you're getting to the heart of it. This is hinting at just the thing I was hoping to bring up.

[jdhowland]

This sentence make no sense. There are only techniques that work and techniques that don't work. There are no such thing as good techniques or bad techniques.

OK. I should have stated that better. What I meant was that a fighter with unorthodox technique can still win over someone who better represents the expected appearance of good form. A technically good fighter can still lose to someone who is bigger and stronger. Correct application of energy gives you an edge--but not always the advantage.

[Robinhood]

OK. I should have stated that better. What I meant was that a fighter with unorthodox technique can still win over someone who better represents the expected appearance of good form. A technically good fighter can still lose to someone who is bigger and stronger. Correct application of energy gives you an edge--but not always the advantage.


Yes, and I would like to add, learning is an individual journey, you will improve yourself and hopefully make yourself more efficient than you were, whether that will give you an advantage over someone else ?, depends on their abilities and level of skill, size , etc.

So in the end, if you learned something worth while , you should be better than you were , if your not, maybe you didn't learn anything.

[jdhowland]

I...have observed no disconnect between the aesthetic and martial content of the arts.

Another piece falls into place: So far we have (at least) cultural identity, history, social groups, rules of order, teaching systems, medicine, martial content and aesthetics.


Please excuse me if this post has seemed arduously long. Please consider it an introduction of sorts and I look forward to talking with all of you in the future.

SKM

You think that's long? Look at some of the forums around here.
Welcome to the discussion. If you are still in the Bay Area you might know some of the names thrown around here.

GP? Osteopath? Other? just curious.

[jdhowland]

OK, SKM. I just saw your public profile.

There is no such place as the midwest.

I've been there and it doesn't exist.

[jdhowland]

LOL. Corrected that in my profile. Thanks for the tip.

Also, yes I recognize some of the names that appear on this forum. All of that was a long time ago. Lots of water under the bridge since then.

Not really a tip. Don't give any personal info you don't really want to share. It's just that (for very good reason) some will not engage you based on a vague introductory story. Stick around. There are some good folks here. On the whole, we're a contentious lot, but pretty good natured about it.

Being far away from my kf roots in SF Chinatown I love to swap stories with anyone who was there in the "old days."

Be well.

[EarthDragon]

jd

Being far away from my kf roots in SF Chinatown I love to swap stories with anyone who was there in the "old days."

when were you there? I lived in the sunset 1405 noriega spent many a day in chinatown. from 1995-1996

[jdhowland]

jd


when were you there? I lived in the sunset 1405 noriega spent many a day in chinatown. from 1995-1996

'74 to'79 and intermittently thereafter. Things have changed but you probably had similar experiences.

[-N-]

My Gung Fu master was highly intellectual as well as powerful. He was a fighting and acupuncture master. His school consisted of a run down building on Geary Avenue in San Francisco which always smelled of dust, sweat, and iron palm medicine. He only taught four Gum Gong, or fighting forms, based upon the fists and footwork of his school, and two weapons- knife and staff. The rest of training was composed of fists and footwork in high repetitions and fighting; always fighting. The students were like chess players trying to figure out how to hit each other without getting hit. At that time, I did not do much sparring. I went away to college and when I came back to the school, it was fighting, always fighting. I was bruised on my entire body all the time. Gum Gong training at that time was brutal, bordering on dangerous.

George Long White Crane?

[jdhowland]

Correct. George Long's White Crane Gung Fu. It was a great start.

Then we have some ancestors in common.

[SteveLau]

Confucian values provide some of the social structure.
Legalism is also shown in the prevalence of posted rules of conduct in many schools.


Similar to TCMA, Chinese opera is also a very traditional art. The culture bought forward is prone to abuse, politics and nonsense. That is why some modern schools still teach the tradition art but without such rules and culture. They emphasize passing on the values and practical skill of our predecessors.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[jdhowland]

SteveLau;1206206]Similar to TCMA, Chinese opera is also a very traditional art. The culture bought forward is prone to abuse, politics and nonsense. That is why some modern schools still teach the tradition art but without such rules and culture. They emphasize passing on the values and practical skill of our predecessors.
I know what you mean. I had a semester of Chinese Opera training in college. It was intense work. We had a week-long seminar with a famous music director from Beijing. He talked about attempts to modernize the tradition to make it more understandable to the public. Every gesture, every motif, even every color has a meaning. Very much like traditional martial arts.

[EarthDragon]

Jd,
that was before my shirfu came to America, he moved here when We Xiao Tung Passed in 1984. Were doc fei wong, adam hsu and Brandan lai there then? I know tat mau wong was in the late 80's what other well known shifus were in SF in the 70's i really miss that city one of th4 prettiest I have ever seen and I have been all over the US

[-N-]

Jd,
that was before my shirfu came to America, he moved here when We Xiao Tung Passed in 1984. Were doc fei wong, adam hsu and Brandan lai there then? I know tat mau wong was in the late 80's what other well known shifus were in SF in the 70's

Brendan Lai came to the US in 1961. He began teaching shortly after.

Gini Lau came to the US in the 70's. Early on, she taught her own classes out of Sifu Lai's studio.

[Punch.HeadButt]

I believe Kwong Wing Lam began teaching in the US in the 60s.

[jdhowland]

Jd,
that was before my shirfu came to America, he moved here when We Xiao Tung Passed in 1984. Were doc fei wong, adam hsu and Brandan lai there then? I know tat mau wong was in the late 80's what other well known shifus were in SF in the 70's i really miss that city one of th4 prettiest I have ever seen and I have been all over the US

Ah, the nostalgia. I had the pleasure of meeting and exchanging stories with a few well-known sifu, some of whom have passed on. They included Brendan Lai, Ming Lum, Jew Leong, Doc Fai Wong (and his son, Jason), and later, Wong Tat Mau. My white crane teacher, Quentin Fong was very well known in Chinatown and my sisuk William Siu used to have the White Crane Supplies Company (my memory of place names is fading but wasn't that on the corner of Market and...what...?). Used to see others training but didn't introduce myself. Kuo Lien Ying (am I remembering the name right?) taught a unique form of taijiquan there. Lots of others whose names I don't know. I would go into a Chinese bookstore or restaurant and ask questions and it would come up that someone there was a well-know sifu. Despite the gang warfare at the time people were very friendly and open about their practice. We just had to be careful about concealing our club uniforms when we went out for noodles.

[-N-]

My cousin was learning White Crane from Ron Dong in the 70's(?)

I think that was the teacher. I was told they wore motorcycle helmets for headgear and got their clocks rocked.

[jdhowland]

Brendan Lai came to the US in 1961. He began teaching shortly after.

Gini Lau came to the US in the 70's. Early on, she taught her own classes out of Sifu Lai's studio.

Lai sifu had a nice big studio. I liked his training methods.

I didn't know that about the connection between Gini Lau and Lai sifu. She was doing form competitions in the U.S. by about '75. My (hop ga) sifu's uncle was Tse Wing Bun of eagle claw fame.

[jdhowland]

My cousin was learning White Crane from Ron Dong in the 70's(?)

I think that was the teacher. I was told they wore motorcycle helmets for headgear and got their clocks rocked.

Not surprised. Ronald Dong was tough as nails. Probably still is, even though he retired from teaching.

[-N-]

Lai sifu had a nice big studio. I liked his training methods.

I didn't know that about the connection between Gini Lau and Lai sifu. She was doing form competitions in the U.S. by about '75. My (hop ga) sifu's uncle was Tse Wing Bun of eagle claw fame.

Praying Mantis and Eagle Claw seems to have had friendly connections over the generations.

Sifu Lai also was friends with Lily Lau.

When Sifu Lai was recovering from a stroke, Lily Lau was one of the few people to spend time with him. A lot of others stayed away, and Lily Lau felt sorry for him and would make a point to be nice and talk to him when she saw him at events.

[EarthDragon]

awesome stories you two.
I remembering when i lived in SF, they said all the famous masters who were the best fighters from china Taiwan all lived here! I was like what about NYC? they always laugh.... seemed like that of a rap east coast/ west coast rivalry

[18elders]

Kuo Lien Ying taught quang ping tai chi

[-N-]

awesome stories you two.

Couple funny stories about Mr. Louie, another big name back then.

I had a schoolmate that was learning Mr. Louie's Sil Lum. He was a pretty big guy, and liked to spar and was the captain of the fencing team at school.

Mr. Louie told him not to get into fights, and to run away if anybody tried to attack him. He further explained that this was so people wouldn't know that he had such a crappy student. This was his way to teach the student to be humble.

and...

One time, my sihing was working in Sifu Lai's store.

Two big loud arrogant american blackbelts came in to the store and started talking crap on kung fu and saying it had no power. They asked my sihing if he knew kung fu and if he thought kung fu had any power.

My sihing said, "I don't know. Why don't you ask that guy over there. He knows kung fu." Pointing towards a small Chinese guy off in the corner.

The two guys went over and one of them said, "Hey old man, does kung fu have any power? I don't think so."

All of a sudden there was a loud crash as Mr. Louie punched the guy in the chest and sent him flying. The guy turned purple as he tried to breathe. And his friend had to pick him up and carry him out of the store.

Mr. Louie had a temper, and he pointed his finger at the two and told them, "Does kung fu have power?!! That is only 10% of my power! If I use any more, you would be dead!"

[mooyingmantis]

I believe Kwong Wing Lam began teaching in the US in the 60s.

He taught in Ohio for years before relocating to California.

[mooyingmantis]

Despite the gang warfare at the time people were very friendly and open about their practice. We just had to be careful about concealing our club uniforms when we went out for noodles.

I was told there was quite a blow up between a famous praying mantis instructor's school and a CLF school back in the day. Apparently bones were broken. :eek: Anyone else hear about this sort of thing going on?

[David Jamieson]

2 other early kung fu and tai chi teachers were Ark Yuey Wong and Lee Ying Arng.

I am less familiar with the former and somewhat familiar with the subject matter offered by the latter who published books and 8mm films on the subjects.

You can still see Lee Ying Arng's videos on Youtube. they're worth a look.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I have taught fighter who have won in the UFC and the USMTA ans well as full contact tough man matches.

What UFC winner did you teach and did he use TCMA techniques to win UFC?

[EarthDragon]

What UFC winner did you teach and did he use TCMA techniques to win UFC?

yes a combination of praying mantis shuai jiao and bjj, his name is Joel Sutton UFC #6 in Buffalo NY and UFC #7 in NC he won both his bouts.

UFC # 6 was nicknamed the blood batlle in Buffalo, the bloodiest UFC match in history at the time. my student headbutted his opponent split his forehead open then after being taken to the ground Joel slide his fingers inside the cut ripped it wide open and blood poured and sprayed all over the mat john McCarthy and the doctors stopped the match.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

yes a combination of praying mantis shuai jiao and bjj, his name is Joel Sutton UFC #6 in Buffalo NY and UFC #7 in NC he won both his bouts.

UFC # 6 was nicknamed the blood batlle in Buffalo, the bloodiest UFC match in history at the time. my student headbutted his opponent split his forehead open then after being taken to the ground Joel slide his fingers inside the cut ripped it wide open and blood poured and sprayed all over the mat john McCarthy and the doctors stopped the match.

Would you say the reason UFC fighters don't use kung fu techniques anymore is because those moves are no longer allowed?

[JamesC]

yes a combination of praying mantis shuai jiao and bjj, his name is Joel Sutton UFC #6 in Buffalo NY and UFC #7 in NC he won both his bouts.

UFC # 6 was nicknamed the blood batlle in Buffalo, the bloodiest UFC match in history at the time. my student headbutted his opponent split his forehead open then after being taken to the ground Joel slide his fingers inside the cut ripped it wide open and blood poured and sprayed all over the mat john McCarthy and the doctors stopped the match.

Lol that's nasty

[Kellen Bassette]

Would you say the reason UFC fighters don't use kung fu techniques anymore is because those moves are no longer allowed?

Are you serious? Jab, cross, hook, overhand, spinning backfist, side kick, front kick, knee, elbow are not TCMA moves?

One of my old shifus has two former students in the UFC. TCMA is not just eye gouge and groin strike you know.

[pazman]

The martial arts they taught were Pan Gai Noon Gung Fu,...

Do you mean Uechi Ryu Karate?

[Bacon]

Are you serious? Jab, cross, hook, overhand, spinning backfist, side kick, front kick, knee, elbow are not TCMA moves?

One of my old shifus has two former students in the UFC. TCMA is not just eye gouge and groin strike you know.

While they can be found in TCMA they've been perfected in application by boxers and the folks who use them in the UFC and other professional full contact fight organizations will train hands from boxing and muay thai. Roundhouse kicks have been perfected by Thai Boxers and the folks who fight in those orgs train Muay Thai for their kicks. It doesn't mean you can't find them in other styles but looking at someone in a professional full contact fight throwing those and going, "wow those are in TCMA too," is a joke. They may exist in TCMA but that's not what e person is training to make them so effective with those moves.

[Kellen Bassette]

While they can be found in TCMA they've been perfected in application by boxers and the folks who use them in the UFC and other professional full contact fight organizations will train hands from boxing and muay thai. Roundhouse kicks have been perfected by Thai Boxers and the folks who fight in those orgs train Muay Thai for their kicks. It doesn't mean you can't find them in other styles but looking at someone in a professional full contact fight throwing those and going, "wow those are in TCMA too," is a joke. They may exist in TCMA but that's not what e person is training to make them so effective with those moves.

I'll agree with you on the roundhouse kick, most fighters have adapted the Thai style there...(though not all, Machida, for one, throws a snapping roundhouse)...but Muay Thai, for the most part, doesn't train side kicks. A few guys throw them, the vast majority don't. You could just as well say a Thai boxer doing a side thrust kick borrowed it from TCMA.
Front kicks, it depends. The teep is from Thai boxing, but the front thrust kick and snap kick are not. There's a lot of those being used as well. Those come from TCMA, Karate and TKD. They weren't perfected by kick boxers, they were borrowed by kick boxers.
Hands, I disagree. There are certain flavors between the styles, but when you apply hand techs in a fight, not a form, there always going to be similar to boxing, MT, kick boxing, whatever. I don't feel any of those disciplines are much different when it comes to punches. They just adapt differently to different rules and ranges. A lot of the "style" is just natural adaptation to what your opponent is likely to be doing under those rules/circumstances. Fundamentally it's the same idea. A cross is pretty much a cross, boxing didn't invent or perfect it, it's been there forever.

[Bacon]

I'll agree with you on the roundhouse kick, most fighters have adapted the Thai style there...(though not all, Machida, for one, throws a snapping roundhouse)...but Muay Thai, for the most part, doesn't train side kicks. A few guys throw them, the vast majority don't. You could just as well say a Thai boxer doing a side thrust kick borrowed it from TCMA. Front kicks, it depends. The teep is from Thai boxing, but the front thrust kick and snap kick are not. There's a lot of those being used as well. Those come from TCMA, Karate and TKD. They weren't perfected by kick boxers, they were borrowed by kick boxers.
Well Machida and GSP both favour the side kick, and who could forget GSP's legendary sinning back kick. Those guys were both karateka. Even of the guys that weren't the only reason they can hijack techniques from styles which aren't their primary are because they're training in styles which emphasize contact and resistant training and have a good reputation for producing good fighters. In striking that's generally (read pretty much always) muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, boxing. In GSP and Machida's cases it's two well respected styles of karate, Shotokan and Kyokushin but even then they have Thai boxing/kickboxing and boxing coaches for their striking.


Hands, I disagree. There are certain flavors between the styles, but when you apply hand techs in a fight, not a form, there always going to be similar to boxing, MT, kick boxing, whatever. I don't feel any of those disciplines are much different when it comes to punches. They just adapt differently to different rules and ranges. A lot of the "style" is just natural adaptation to what your opponent is likely to be doing under those rules/circumstances. Fundamentally it's the same idea. A cross is pretty much a cross, boxing didn't invent or perfect it, it's been there forever.

Well if you want to see who has better hands then it's a pretty simple matter of isolating a fighting contest to hands only. Maybe they could do it in some kind of roped square with gloves. Joking aside, let's face it when it comes to hands, bet on the boxer. That's their specialty. Saying the hand striking in TCMA is equivalent is like saying the takedowns in BJJ are just as good as those in freestyle wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

Well Machida and GSP both favour the side kick, and who could forget GSP's legendary sinning back kick. Those guys were both karateka. Even of the guys that weren't the only reason they can hijack techniques from styles which aren't their primary are because they're training in styles which emphasize contact and resistant training and have a good reputation for producing good fighters. In striking that's generally (read pretty much always) muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, boxing. In GSP and Machida's cases it's two well respected styles of karate, Shotokan and Kyokushin but even then they have Thai boxing/kickboxing and boxing coaches for their striking.


I agree with all of this...I wasn't meaning to imply Machida as a TCMA guy, by any means...I was just pointing out he was an oddity in MMA for not adopting the Thai roundhouse.
You are also correct that MT, kick boxing and boxing are generally perceived as the effective striking styles, but it's simply because so much emphasis is put on the fighting/resiting aspect. This does not mean this aspect doesn't exist, or wasn't traditionally a major part of other systems, it simply means those styles you mentioned have retained this element of their training whereas many TMAs have got lazy and let it go. But not all. An effective Sanda fighter is not doing MT. There are similar elements, as with all striking arts, but they are different.



Well if you want to see who has better hands then it's a pretty simple matter of isolating a fighting contest to hands only. Maybe they could do it in some kind of roped square with gloves. Joking aside, let's face it when it comes to hands, bet on the boxer. That's their specialty. Saying the hand striking in TCMA is equivalent is like saying the takedowns in BJJ are just as good as those in freestyle wrestling.

No doubt. Boxers will always have the best hands because that's the focus of their training. However, put the boxer in a MT match, things change. Put the MT guy in a MMA cage, he has to adapt. Put a wrestler in a boxing match, probably won't go well, put a boxer in a wrestling match, same thing.

We can't spend 100% of our time training every aspect of fighting. We can stick to one aspect and be lacking in the rest or specialize in one aspect and be competent in the rest, or be a jack of all trades, and go for the well rounded route.

That depends on what your interests are, whether or not you want to compete; and in what format; or what you feel you need for your own reasons.

I guess my point is, if a TCMA guy fights in a Kick boxing match, that doesn't mean he's forgot his 10 years of training and learned western kick boxing on the spot. If a nak Muay fights in the cage, it's not going to look like the stuff you see at Lumpinee Stadium. That doesn't mean he's not MT and now uses only MMA techs, (whatever that may mean.)

[Syn7]

I see no reason why TCMA can't work in MMA if you train TCMA for MMA. TCMA has all the principles needed. All you have to do is adapt the systems you use(assuming they are good systems at all) to MMA environment. Learn to use your qinna on the ground and against the case, learn to use your bridging and SJ in clinch scenarios as well as your striking. Practice your throws. Learn to fight out of ****ty scenarios and train with the kind of people you are likely to face. I really don't see why not. I trash MA's that advertise combat but don't actually train it that way, but there are a ton of combat effective styles. Sure China has a cultural bias in their attitude about fighting, everywhere does. Adapt adapt adapt. This is what the true spirit of combat oriented MA's is. Nothing more nothing less. Persevere in any situation. Fight on.

[Syn7]

Jack of all trades master of none, often better than a master of one. ;)



It really depends on what you want. If you wanna be a pro boxer, don't do wing chun. If you want to be well rounded, you must accept that your time management changes drastically.

[jdhowland]

It was an interesting combination of religious observations and martial arts with each discipline informing the other. The monks and students practiced everything as a continuous training platform.


Korean, Chinese, Buddhist, Taoist, classical and modern--now that's eclectic!

As it should be. Only outsiders would see anything wrong with sharing and combining traditions. From the "emic" perspective it is normal.

[Bacon]

I agree with all of this...I wasn't meaning to imply Machida as a TCMA guy, by any means...I was just pointing out he was an oddity in MMA for not adopting the Thai roundhouse.
You are also correct that MT, kick boxing and boxing are generally perceived as the effective striking styles, but it's simply because so much emphasis is put on the fighting/resiting aspect. This does not mean this aspect doesn't exist, or wasn't traditionally a major part of other systems, it simply means those styles you mentioned have retained this element of their training whereas many TMAs have got lazy and let it go.
Well that's what martial arts focus on. It's not a knitting circle.


But not all. An effective Sanda fighter is not doing MT. There are similar elements, as with all striking arts, but they are different.

Sanda isn't a TCMA.


No doubt. Boxers will always have the best hands because that's the focus of their training. However, put the boxer in a MT match, things change. Put the MT guy in a MMA cage, he has to adapt. Put a wrestler in a boxing match, probably won't go well, put a boxer in a wrestling match, same thing.
Yep but that adaptation from boxing, wrestling, muay Thai, kickboxing, bjj, into successful full contact fighting is leaps and bounds less than traditional martial arts.


We can't spend 100% of our time training every aspect of fighting. We can stick to one aspect and be lacking in the rest or specialize in one aspect and be competent in the rest, or be a jack of all trades, and go for the well rounded route.
True but you're leading away from the original issue. You were saying jab, cross, hook, uppercut, were TCMA techniques. The truth however is that boxing is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in terms of hands. You said muay Thai's hand strikes a similar. That's because they saw the effectiveness of boxing and stoles it. Yes there were similar strikes in muay Boran but it's not really jab, cross, uppercut, hook and it was never refined and applied to the same detail. Those are the province of boxing.


That depends on what your interests are, whether or not you want to compete; and in what format; or what you feel you need for your own reasons.
You train to be the best fighter you can. There are some things that will never change whether for competition or self defence. If you're not training for effectiveness then it turns into tae bo and cardio kickboxing.


I guess my point is, if a TCMA guy fights in a Kick boxing match, that doesn't mean he's forgot his 10 years of training and learned western kick boxing on the spot. If a nak Muay fights in the cage, it's not going to look like the stuff you see at Lumpinee Stadium. That doesn't mean he's not MT and now uses only MMA techs, (whatever that may mean.)
Well to the first, if the TCMA guy fights a kickboxing match he will probably get his rear handed to him if he doesn't fight like a kickboxer and use boxing hand techniques. It's not just because of the large gloves because we see the same thing in MMA. The second, muay Thai, there is little change when you take it to MMA except for the addition of ground grappling and the difference between the fence and cage. Other than that it can be exactly the same.

All good fighting looks pretty much the same when taken to a full contact environment. It just so happens that everything that works will pretty much look like boxing, kickboxing/muay thai, wrestling, bjj. It just so happens that they train the way they fight as opposed to a lot of TCMA training.



I see no reason why TCMA can't work in MMA if you train TCMA for MMA. TCMA has all the principles needed. All you have to do is adapt the systems you use(assuming they are good systems at all) to MMA environment. Learn to use your qinna on the ground and against the case, learn to use your bridging and SJ in clinch scenarios as well as your striking. Practice your throws. Learn to fight out of ****ty scenarios and train with the kind of people you are likely to face. I really don't see why not. I trash MA's that advertise combat but don't actually train it that way, but there are a ton of combat effective styles. Sure China has a cultural bias in their attitude about fighting, everywhere does. Adapt adapt adapt. This is what the true spirit of combat oriented MA's is. Nothing more nothing less. Persevere in any situation. Fight on.

Well that's the problem isn't it. The ones that don't adapt and don't change no longer work really. The ones that do just end up looking like kickboxing, muay thai, wrestling, and boxing. Honestly I'd love to see someone make pure, or even modified TCMA that actually looks like TCMA, work innthe ring. When you find a video let me know but I think it'll be a long wait.

[Bacon]

yes a combination of praying mantis shuai jiao and bjj, his name is Joel Sutton UFC #6 in Buffalo NY and UFC #7 in NC he won both his bouts.

UFC # 6 was nicknamed the blood batlle in Buffalo, the bloodiest UFC match in history at the time. my student headbutted his opponent split his forehead open then after being taken to the ground Joel slide his fingers inside the cut ripped it wide open and blood poured and sprayed all over the mat john McCarthy and the doctors stopped the match.

His official record is 2-4-1 and he's not exactly an amazing fighter. Certainly not someone you want to hold up as the shining star of TCMA. Not to mention that back in those days there were fewer worthy opponents and he didn't exactly win against anyone of note, even considering the time period.

[Kellen Bassette]

Well that's what martial arts focus on. It's not a knitting circle.

Well, it should be. Unfortunately a lot of people want to pretend to know how to fight and not really engage in the necessary activities to make them proficient at it. That fact and gearing classes towards western children really took a lot of the tradition out of TMAs.



Sanda isn't a TCMA.


Sure it is. Sanda as a sporting format isn't, but Sanda in the original sense is thousands of years old. It's sparring and it's indigenous to all Kung Fu. It's what kumite is to Karate. If you do Wing Chun, there's WC sanda, if you do CLF there's CLF sanda. In the modern sense, someone may practice only "modern sanda" but someone else may study traditional Shaolin and use his traditional sanda to compete. Modified for the reality and rules of ring fighting, of course.



Yep but that adaptation from boxing, wrestling, muay Thai, kickboxing, bjj, into successful full contact fighting is leaps and bounds less than traditional martial arts.


Not if you train application, it's not such a leap. If your working your traditional techs, on bags and pads and against resisting opponents, there's not that much transitioning. If you only do forms and compliance drills, than sure...it's miles away.



True but you're leading away from the original issue. You were saying jab, cross, hook, uppercut, were TCMA techniques. The truth however is that boxing is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in terms of hands. You said muay Thai's hand strikes a similar. That's because they saw the effectiveness of boxing and stoles it. Yes there were similar strikes in muay Boran but it's not really jab, cross, uppercut, hook and it was never refined and applied to the same detail. Those are the province of boxing.


Well the way I see it, there's not a lot of difference in the application of jab, cross in TCMA, MT or boxing. Sure there's style/flavor, some footwork...but the fundamental essence of applying jab, cross is the same.
Boxers will always be better at it, because boxers dedicate all their training time to exercises that will make them better punchers. I don't think it's because the 1-2 combo in boxing is inherently superior to any other styles 1-2 combo. It is a numbers game. They are the best punchers because they put the most time into it.

It's really silly when someone has the attitude that, "1-2 is ineffective if used by a TCMA guy, but.....should it prove effective....then it's no longer TCMA, it's now either boxing or MT."

As to the Muay Boran techs, you say they were never developed as well...perhaps, or, maybe, given the nature of MTB with kicking and grappling featuring heavily, they didn't see it prudent to devote so much time to those techs.
In recent decades, yes, MT borrowed hook and uppercut; which they owned earlier in MTB...perhaps slightly different versions, but jab and cross have remained unchanged since the ancient times.

You can't deny that boxers have to make adjustments if they enter the kick boxing or MMA world. That doesn't mean they aren't using their boxing, but they aren't using it exactly as they would in a boxing match.




You train to be the best fighter you can. There are some things that will never change whether for competition or self defence. If you're not training for effectiveness then it turns into tae bo and cardio kickboxing.


I agree.



Well to the first, if the TCMA guy fights a kickboxing match he will probably get his rear handed to him if he doesn't fight like a kickboxer and use boxing hand techniques. It's not just because of the large gloves because we see the same thing in MMA. The second, muay Thai, there is little change when you take it to MMA except for the addition of ground grappling and the difference between the fence and cage. Other than that it can be exactly the same.


Yes, but when traditional techs are applied, as they are meant to be used in combat, they tend to resemble kick boxing moves anyway. It's just the nature of fighting. People get too caught up in form and can't distinguish it from application. People who fight, or at least spar hard, know the difference. That doesn't mean those other exercises don't have value, but if you only train them, you will never be able to apply anything.

The techs a MT fighter uses in the cage remain the same, but the flavor changes drastically. Watch a video of MT fights in Thailand; then watch a guy with a MT background in the UFC. The fights look a lot different, reason being, MT against MT is highly stylized. They are constantly trying to defend the leg kick and looking for the clinch. Boxing vs boxing, Judo vs Judo, ect. are stylized as well. Put any of these guys against someone with a different background in the cage, the flavor changes. They may use the same techs, but the fight will look a lot different.




All good fighting looks pretty much the same when taken to a full contact environment. It just so happens that everything that works will pretty much look like boxing, kickboxing/muay thai, wrestling, bjj. It just so happens that they train the way they fight as opposed to a lot of TCMA training.


I agree with you here, but there's an awful lot of TCMA training that is applicable to full contact fighting; that many folks just ignore/avoid.




Well that's the problem isn't it. The ones that don't adapt and don't change no longer work really. The ones that do just end up looking like kickboxing, muay thai, wrestling, and boxing. Honestly I'd love to see someone make pure, or even modified TCMA that actually looks like TCMA, work innthe ring. When you find a video let me know but I think it'll be a long wait.

What do you expect it to look like? A Jet Li movie? TCMA applied in a ring format is going to look like sanda, not performance wushu. They have performance MT as well you know. It looks an awful lot like Thai wushu, but the fighting aspect still looks like Muay Thai. Which looks a little like sanda. Which resembles kick boxing, which seems a bit like MMA...it's the nature of application.

[Kellen Bassette]

Jack of all trades master of none, often better than a master of one. ;)



It really depends on what you want. If you wanna be a pro boxer, don't do wing chun. If you want to be well rounded, you must accept that your time management changes drastically.

That's the truth of it.

Joe MMA wants to be the best in the world, so he gets himself a boxing trainer, a Muay Thai teacher, a wrestling coach and a BJJ instructor. Now he's got his punches, kicks, take downs and submissions on lock down. Trouble is, he still only has X amount of time to train. If he divides it evenly, that's 25% of his time working on each discipline. Now he's well rounded, but he's only 1/4 as good as any of his teachers at their specific art.

Depends what you want/need. You can't be a specialist and rock at everything. It's one or the other.

[Kellen Bassette]

I've seen from your other posts that you train Wing Chun, Muay Thai and MMA. You seem to be pretty sport oriented. I'm curious as to where Wing Chun fits into all this?

What value, if any, does it provide to your sport oriented training; in your opinion?

I don't mean this as a loaded question; I'm just curious.

[wenshu]

What do you expect it to look like?

http://sideshowsito.com/hulk_smash_loki.gif

[ShaolinDan]

No doubt. Boxers will always have the best hands because that's the focus of their training. However, put the boxer in a MT match, things change. Put the MT guy in a MMA cage, he has to adapt. Put a wrestler in a boxing match, probably won't go well, put a boxer in a wrestling match, same thing.

We can't spend 100% of our time training every aspect of fighting. We can stick to one aspect and be lacking in the rest or specialize in one aspect and be competent in the rest, or be a jack of all trades, and go for the well rounded route.

That depends on what your interests are, whether or not you want to compete; and in what format; or what you feel you need for your own reasons.


This. To dominate in a rule set means devoting your training time specifically to that rule set. When Sanda fights MT, if they use Sanda rules Sanda wins, if they use MT rules MT wins... When they mix up the rule set it's less predictable. It's that simple. If a person wants to dominate in a sporting venue, then they train specifically for that sporting venue. TCMA (in general) is a jack of all trades approach--it's never going to dominate in a rule set. But if you want grappling, striking, weapons, and culture all mixed together, it's hard to beat. As Kellen says, "it depends on what your interests are."

[Bacon]

Sure it is. Sanda as a sporting format isn't, but Sanda in the original sense is thousands of years old. It's sparring and it's indigenous to all Kung Fu. It's what kumite is to Karate. If you do Wing Chun, there's WC sanda, if you do CLF there's CLF sanda. In the modern sense, someone may practice only "modern sanda" but someone else may study traditional Shaolin and use his traditional sanda to compete. Modified for the reality and rules of ring fighting, of course.
See but you're highlighting the difference right there between kickboxing and TCMA. A kickboxer practiced his jab, cross, hook, uppercut, rounhouse kicks, blocking, slipping, and footwork the same way he does in a fight. Pretty much all the TCMA folks practice one way and then end up fighting like a bad kickboxer.


Not if you train application, it's not such a leap. If your working your traditional techs, on bags and pads and against resisting opponents, there's not that much transitioning. If you only do forms and compliance drills, than sure...it's miles away.
Considering everyone's TCMA application pretty much falls to pieces against a half decent boxer, kickboxer, wrestler, Thai boxer, etc. that doesn't hold a lot of water.


Well the way I see it, there's not a lot of difference in the application of jab, cross in TCMA, MT or boxing. Sure there's style/flavor, some footwork...but the fundamental essence of applying jab, cross is the same.
To be honest that shows your ignorance of the delicacies of boxing, muay Thai, and kickboxing.


Boxers will always be better at it, because boxers dedicate all their training time to exercises that will make them better punchers. I don't think it's because the 1-2 combo in boxing is inherently superior to any other styles 1-2 combo. It is a numbers game. They are the best punchers because they put the most time into it.
I'd say it's a combination of better technique, trainers who have actually used their techniques in full contact fighting, and actually practicing the way you play.


It's really silly when someone has the attitude that, "1-2 is ineffective if used by a TCMA guy, but.....should it prove effective....then it's no longer TCMA, it's now either boxing or MT."
No just that every time you see a TCMA guy doing a 1-2 it looks like bad boxing. When it's done well it looks like boxing, and generally the TMA folks who do it well cross train in boxing or are trained by someone who has.


As to the Muay Boran techs, you say they were never developed as well...perhaps, or, maybe, given the nature of MTB with kicking and grappling featuring heavily, they didn't see it prudent to devote so much time to those techs.
In recent decades, yes, MT borrowed hook and uppercut; which they owned earlier in MTB...perhaps slightly different versions, but jab and cross have remained unchanged since the ancient times.
No. If you take a look at boxing matches even 60 years ago you can see that isn't the case.


You can't deny that boxers have to make adjustments if they enter the kick boxing or MMA world. That doesn't mean they aren't using their boxing, but they aren't using it exactly as they would in a boxing match.
That's because they have additional components to worry about. Alteration in that way isn't the issue. The TCMA folks come in and just do things badly because they practice one way and fight another and end up doing the second and most important badly. The boxers, wrestlers, kickboxers, and others mentioned practice the same way as they fight.


Yes, but when traditional techs are applied, as they are meant to be used in combat, they tend to resemble kick boxing moves anyway. It's just the nature of fighting. People get too caught up in form and can't distinguish it from application. People who fight, or at least spar hard, know the difference. That doesn't mean those other exercises don't have value, but if you only train them, you will never be able to apply anything.
Again same issue. The TCMA folks practice one way and fight, badly, another.


The techs a MT fighter uses in the cage remain the same, but the flavor changes drastically. Watch a video of MT fights in Thailand; then watch a guy with a MT background in the UFC. The fights look a lot different, reason being, MT against MT is highly stylized. They are constantly trying to defend the leg kick and looking for the clinch. Boxing vs boxing, Judo vs Judo, ect. are stylized as well. Put any of these guys against someone with a different background in the cage, the flavor changes. They may use the same techs, but the fight will look a lot different.
Take a look at Anderson Silva. The only reason anything is altered is because of the opponent because he's good. And even with the others they're training muay Thai in combination rather than isolation. They practice the way they play.


I've seen from your other posts that you train Wing Chun, Muay Thai and MMA. You seem to be pretty sport oriented. I'm curious as to where Wing Chun fits into all this?
Actually my training isn't sport oriented at all. It's oriented toward developing combative skills. Sport fighting is a way to test one's skills, preferably in the most open ruleset but still with some safety considerations, ergo MMA rules. The wing chun helps improve coordination, balance, footwork, dirty boxing, straight kicks, stomps, and a few other things.


I agree with you here, but there's an awful lot of TCMA training that is applicable to full contact fighting; that many folks just ignore/avoid.
Really can you find me one (not sanda and who hasn't cross trained in non TCMA) who's been successful against high level competitors in professional MMA or Vale Tudo?


What do you expect it to look like? A Jet Li movie? TCMA applied in a ring format is going to look like sanda, not performance wushu. They have performance MT as well you know. It looks an awful lot like Thai wushu, but the fighting aspect still looks like Muay Thai. Which looks a little like sanda. Which resembles kick boxing, which seems a bit like MMA...it's the nature of application.

Practice the way you fight and you'll fight a whole lot better. It does you no help to practice something like mantis or hung gar and then box when you don the gloves, 4oz or otherwise.
And when folks train one way and fight another it does not make a good case for the techniques they're training and only makes a better case for boxing, kickboxing, and muay Thai. You'll notice most of the Thai boxers don't practice the old muay Boran forms any more.

[MightyB]

http://cdn.hometheaterforum.com/5/5a/5af8a1d2_523ac920_beating_a_dead_horse.jpg
..........

[-N-]

Practice the way you fight and you'll fight a whole lot better. It does you no help to practice something like mantis or hung gar and then box when you don the gloves, 4oz or otherwise.

You can practice Mantis the way you fight if your teacher teaches you right.

My student did fine when he went up against boxers under boxing rules at Air Force Academy. He won 4 out of 5 of his matches even though his training was Mantis.

[Bacon]

Got vid? Honestly every time I hear someone make that claim there's no proof. And the air force academy? Really? That wouldn't exactly be a challenge for a regular boxer.

[MightyB]

All that really matters is that
Liam Neeson looks like a
total bad arse
when he uses that eclectic mix
of kali, wing chun, and boxing
in the Taken movies!!!

http://media2.firstshowing.net/firstshowing/img5/taken2-neesonfighting-street-full.jpg

[ShaolinDan]

Got vid? Honestly every time I hear someone make that claim there's no proof. And the air force academy? Really? That wouldn't exactly be a challenge for a regular boxer.

Yawn. So what's your pro record? Riding on the victories of MMA fighters who train your style(s) is no different than riding on the coattails of famous TCMA masters.

Anyway, yeah, beating the dead horse is right. I got into too many of these discussions when I first started here--gets old quick.

Real TCMA rocks. 'Nough said.

[MightyB]

Bacon's not wrong in his assessment. TCMA is mostly behind the times when it comes to actually fighting.



---
Kellen and N are correct in saying that you can get it to work with hard work.

---
TCMA IMO was originally for fighting with weapons. Without weapons drilling and sparring, that skill level has dropped significantly in practice. TCMA without weapons was a last resort and had tricks that were passed down that would hopefully allow you to kill a dude quickly and then get another weapon. Not sure what that would've looked like in practice, but I doubt it resembled anything that's done in Kwoons now.

[MightyB]

I'd be willing to wager a taco that the spiritual practice was kept separate from the martial practice and that self cultivation, while deemed important for a holistic lifestyle, wasn't a big part of original MA.

[MightyB]

me imagining old skool MA
----
"Punching people in the throat rocks!"
"Cool, lets practice. What if he tries to hit you?"
"Block it and punch him in the throat"
"Dude, what do you do if a guy grabs you?"
"Punch him in the throat."

No air punching or forms. Just two dudes working out the nuances of punching each other in the throat.

Forms came later... much much later. I think opium may have been involved.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I will believe TCMA is effective at fighting against trained opponents when I see someone win a MMA match using TCMA techniques.

This is not a TCMA fighting stance:

http://www.theonetwopunch.com/images/fittip1199.jpg

This is not a TCMA block:

http://i.imgur.com/k3Puz.jpg

If you use these techniques, you are not doing TCMA (at least not at that moment).

[Bacon]

Yawn. So what's your pro record? Riding on the victories of MMA fighters who train your style(s) is no different than riding on the coattails of famous TCMA masters.
Not exactly considering that (1)MMA is a ruleset and not a fighting style and (2) I can point to videos of exponents of muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing freestyle/Greco roman wrestling, bjj, having won matches against skilled, resisting opponents in the last hundred years.
And it's 11-0. I'm Rickson Gracie biatch!


Real TCMA rocks. 'Nough said.
And yet there's magically no video of this and the only thing you get from TCMA folks is more excuses and snapping at the mouth.

[bawang]

I will believe TCMA is effective at fighting against trained opponents when I see someone win a MMA match using TCMA techniques.

This is not a TCMA fighting stance:

http://www.theonetwopunch.com/images/fittip1199.jpg
).

this is called big seven stars.


This is not a TCMA block:

http://i.imgur.com/k3Puz.jpg

this is called face protecting palm.


If you use these techniques, you are not doing TCMA (at least not at that moment) .

if you dont use these techinques, you are not doing TCMA.

[MightyB]

we're trying to take representational martial arts that were based on this:
http://c.ooi1.com/asian-art/warriors.jpg

and somehow make them work in the context of this:
http://blog.betdsi.com/wp-content/uploads/rousey12.jpg

See the disconnect?

[MightyB]

we should stop trying to do the sport that we're not even remotely close to and we should start trying to use the rules and training from a sport like this
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/54th-All-Japan-Kendo-Champ2006-2_8636.jpg

[Jimbo]

we're trying to take representational martial arts that were based on this:
http://c.ooi1.com/asian-art/warriors.jpg

and somehow make them work in the context of this:
http://blog.betdsi.com/wp-content/uploads/rousey12.jpg

See the disconnect?

What she's using is judo/BJJ, as opposed to ancient CMA. Of course, you could say that JMA originated from CMA at its core, but there can be little dispute that JMA placed a much greater emphasis on ground grappling, and developed its own unique characteristics. And empty-hand fighting in both CMA and JMA always took a back seat (way back) to weapons combat.

[bawang]

we're trying to take representational martial arts that were based on this:
http://c.ooi1.com/asian-art/warriors.jpg





they all spar bro

[RenDaHai]

This is not a TCMA block:

http://i.imgur.com/k3Puz.jpg

If you use these techniques, you are not doing TCMA (at least not at that moment).

In Shaolin its called Yun ding (cloud covers the peak of the mountain). Its one of the most common techniques and appears in just about every form in Shaolin and a great deal in northern longfist styles.

Appears in the southern styles a lot too....

http://www.hunggarkuen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/kk.jpg

In the middle, how do you think this move is applied? The opponent is to one side, not in front. In the large frame the hand is above the head, in the small frame the hand touches the head.

[EarthDragon]

Bacon...

whats your professional record? what UFC were you in? before you put down someone who as you said "doesn't have good record" not an amazing fighter you should post your record and skills.

do you think he could whoop you?

the reason he only had 4 pro fights is he left professional fighting due to a tear in his retina and doctors told him he could go blind if he got hit in the head again, so someone whom has accomplished far more than you perhaps you should hold your tongue. unless of course you want to post your professional or amateur record or how about just a video of you fighting

[EarthDragon]

His official record is 2-4-1 and he's not exactly an amazing fighter. Certainly not someone you want to hold up as the shining star of TCMA. Not to mention that back in those days there were fewer worthy opponents and he didn't exactly win against anyone of note, even considering the time period.

the above quote from bacon.


so again bacon who have you fought? have you ever fought or are you just blabbing your opinion
so your saying the first UFC 1 -10 didnt have worthy opponents? LOL would you consider yourself a worthy opponent?

another armchair mouth boxer dale

[MightyB]

they all spar bro

The difference is in how they sparred and what they trained. We don't have the intestinal fortitude to do the training that was ancient Chinese military kung fu.

Again, I have nothing to base this on other than speculation, but what happens in a modern kwoon probably isn't even remotely close to how a true Chinese warrior trained. My guess is that there was a lot of weapons sparring, very little forms work and they were rudimentary forms consisting of a few moves, and lots of hard contact. That would be the formal instruction, the rest would be conditioning.

I doubt the individual moves would've been much different than what we pantomime in modern forms - the difference would've been in intent and execution.

[MightyB]

What I'm coming to grips with is what people have been saying on these forums for a long time. And that is TCMA is different. TCMA isn't about fighting. This isn't a positive or negative statement. It's just a statement. TCMA has evolved into what it is today. And that evolution is varied among different schools and lineages. Take it for what it is, enjoy it or don't.

[jdhowland]

What I'm coming to grips with is what people have been saying on these forums for a long time. And that is TCMA is different. TCMA isn't about fighting. This isn't a positive or negative statement. It's just a statement. TCMA has evolved into what it is today. And that evolution is varied among different schools and lineages. Take it for what it is, enjoy it or don't.

And that's pretty much why I brought this thread on in the first place. TCMA can have as much fighting skill as you want to get from it. But a Chinese lineage has much more associated with it.

It cannot really be compared with sporting competitions because they serve different publics and different purposes.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

In Shaolin its called Yun ding (cloud covers the peak of the mountain). Its one of the most common techniques and appears in just about every form in Shaolin and a great deal in northern longfist styles.

Appears in the southern styles a lot too....

http://www.hunggarkuen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/kk.jpg

In the middle, how do you think this move is applied? The opponent is to one side, not in front. In the large frame the hand is above the head, in the small frame the hand touches the head.

Not even the same thing. Your guy is elbows out, palms up. The guy I posted is protecting his face. Your guy's face is unprotected.

The guy you posted is doing something that looks like the intro part to gung gee fook fu kuen.

It's not a valid response to take an ambiguous drawing from a TCMA text that looks similar to a MMA technique and say it's the same thing.

[taai gihk yahn]

Not even the same thing. Your guy is elbows out, palms up. The guy I posted is protecting his face. Your guy's face is unprotected.

The guy you posted is doing something that looks like the intro part to gung gee fook fu kuen.

It's not a valid response to take an ambiguous drawing from a TCMA text that looks similar to a MMA technique and say it's the same thing.

here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTA3gkOf29E

I allow it's not exactly the same, and frankly aspects of it are a bit of a contrivance, but it's pretty similar

[Bernard]

[QUOTE=Bernard;1205743]A good teacher can pass on great techniques through forms practice I feel...QUOTE]

So even if a system is incomplete it still retains value in what is passed on structurally?

I tend to agree. My first sifu said that every teacher will show you what he wants you to learn, but it is up to you to fill in the gaps (what he didn't know or held back from teaching). This can be done with enough experience.

I think this is where training in a traditional system has an advantage over going it alone. Past experience is built into the structure of the training.

Two of my teachers strongly disagreed, believing that only those with considerable fighting experience can truly reveal a system. I see the point in this, but the fighting experience doesn't have to come from the same school, and there are many problems associated with sparring only within the same "style."

Can a system that has lacked real fighting experience for a couple of generations be returned to its combative roots?

I've given this question some thought. I believe its possible. One of the most important things my first (and main) teacher taught is to think for myself.

After I left his school, I dabbled in quite a few martial arts. And without exception, I feel kung fu help me pick things up faster. For example, my classmates in a jujitsu school told me they were amazed at how easy I pick up the joint locks and how effortless I made it look. Thing is my kung fu teacher didn't spend a whole lot of time on locks!

I believe the way he taught forms ingrained certain principles of movement that made it almost second nature for me when it came to qin na.

[RenDaHai]

Not even the same thing. Your guy is elbows out, palms up. The guy I posted is protecting his face. Your guy's face is unprotected.

The guy you posted is doing something that looks like the intro part to gung gee fook fu kuen.

It's not a valid response to take an ambiguous drawing from a TCMA text that looks similar to a MMA technique and say it's the same thing.


How is his face unprotected? I told you the opponent is to one side, not infront, the elbow is protecting the face. This technique is used as shielding the face with the elbow, how is that different?

The elbows are in a similar position if you take into account the stance with respect to the opponent. Remember, you don't stand in front of someone in Ma bu, it is used side on the vast majority of the time.

The difference is this guy is raising both elbows as opposed to one.

It is used to block in the same way as the guy in the photo is blocking. In the small frame your hand touches the back of your head, the action is performed like brushing the hair back.


The drawing is not even slightly ambiguous to someone who knows the technique.

[RenDaHai]

here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTA3gkOf29E

I allow it's not exactly the same, and frankly aspects of it are a bit of a contrivance, but it's pretty similar

Pertinent video. It is the same if you were to use one hand. In the video he is using two and doing the perfect version where you step in and hit them with it as well. But when I have tried this technique Often you can't get in fast enough and what happens is you just end up blocking. But the block is just like the guy in the photo is blocking. And it is an effective block.

This appears just as often with just 1 hand, Dan yun ding as opposed to Shuang Yun ding (double cloud peak).

[wenshu]

TCMA isn't about fighting.

I've been saying this forever; gong fu hasn't been about fighting since the Ming dynasty, Ming-Qing transitional at the latest.

Everyone gives the Cultural Revolution all the credit for destroying gong fu but a bunch of teenagers running around the countryside sloganeering, destroying statuary and dumping buckets of red paint on people ain't **** compared to nearly three centuries of Mongorian oppression buttressed by nearly a century of civil war and Japanese occupation. Puny humans and their truncated historical memory.

[wenshu]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.958882.1318387976!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/alg-ortiz-mayweather-jpg.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3e-RV_iiRAU-Gig2V5YPGEzJ-jiLhQYnasE7Hjt6AaeR-_o3qAA

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQcdzQ8RdmKURUpetZdDRPk7ohLsc4gA dyCT7pJyymisNeAAgNb0g

looks suspiciously like gong bu chong quan to me

IF, shut the **** up, you don't know **** about boxing and even less about gong fu.

[RenDaHai]

We have all had this argument too many times;

Please, if you are genuinely interested in fighting then there is one thing you must understand. Fighting is about VIOLENCE (something we don't actually talk about enough).

When it comes to violence there are many kinds, but two fundamental types that we see in all nature: Territorial and Predatory.

Although one may become the other, they are not as similar as many of you seem to think.

The reason Traditional Martial Arts look different to Sport Martial Arts is because they deal with different types of violence.

You will never have an art that is equally equipped for both.

[Bernard]

We have all had this argument too many times;

Please, if you are genuinely interested in fighting then there is one thing you must understand. Fighting is about VIOLENCE (something we don't actually talk about enough).

When it comes to violence there are many kinds, but two fundamental types that we see in all nature: Territorial and Predatory.

Although one may become the other, they are not as similar as many of you seem to think.

The reason Traditional Martial Arts look different to Sport Martial Arts is because they deal with different types of violence.

You will never have an art that is equally equipped for both.


Nicely stated....

[YouKnowWho]

Not even the same thing. Your guy is elbows out, palms up. The guy I posted is protecting his face. Your guy's face is unprotected.
If you "cut" into your opponent's striking arm and use your defense as your offense you don't need to protect your face.

That move in both SC and praying mantis is called "挂(Gua) - comb hair". If you use one hand, it's called single Gua. If you use both hands, it's called double Gua. You use it to handle your opponent's jab and cross. It's the "bread and butter" move in SC. The difference between the SC application and Baji application is a SC guy will use double Gua to sparate opponent's arms and then enter into his front door and finish him with a "head lock".

In TCMA, it's called "comb the hair". In modern term, it's called "carzy monkey".

[YouKnowWho]

Considering everyone's TCMA application pretty much falls to pieces against a half decent boxer, kickboxer, wrestler, Thai boxer, etc. that doesn't hold a lot of water.

One of my guys spent the whole last 2 weeks in a local MMA gym. That MMA coach loves to use my guy's grappling skill to train his next UFC fight. If TCMA has nothing to offer to the MMA community, the MMA coach won't let my guy to go to his gym for free. For MMA guys, they can pick up some new tricks from TCMA. For TCMA guys, they can use MMA environment to test their skill. It's a win-win situation.

[Lucas]

TCMA gives out what you put into it.

If you want to train TCMA to just learn a bit of culture and get in good shape and have a good time. You can do that.

If you want to train TCMA for MMA and get into the cage/ring and fight with CMA for stand up and throwing supplimented with a ground fighting style. You can do that.

If you want to train TCMA for law enforcement or military purposes. You can do that.

If you want to train TCMA for personal protection and self defense. You can do that.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTA3gkOf29E

I allow it's not exactly the same, and frankly aspects of it are a bit of a contrivance, but it's pretty similar

It's similar.

Looks closer to what's in the pic RenDaHai posted, though.

And if that dude is blocking someone next to him, why is he looking forward? And if he's actually taking a blow on his arms somewhere, why are his hands just hanging there? They're going to fly backward as soon as the strike makes contact. At least in the vid TGY posted the guys hands are braced behind his head. And in the pic I posted, his hands are braced on his head.

At least in MMA they practice it the way it will actually look in a fight, rather than facing a different way and doing it differently and blah blah blah.

This is what it looks like when you train it:

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

This is what it looks like when you do it for reals:

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

[Bacon]

I've been saying this forever; gong fu hasn't been about fighting since the Ming dynasty, Ming-Qing transitional at the latest.

In that case it's no longer martial arts. It's just arts. It becomes dance essentially.



What she's using is judo/BJJ, as opposed to ancient CMA. Of course, you could say that JMA originated from CMA at its core, but there can be little dispute that JMA placed a much greater emphasis on ground grappling, and developed its own unique characteristics. And empty-hand fighting in both CMA and JMA always took a back seat (way back) to weapons combat.

Well yes in terms of weapons but as for the ground grappling almost all of the JMAs were exclusively stand up oriented, hence why Kano's students were destroyed by the Kosen Judo guys back in the day.




so again bacon who have you fought? have you ever fought or are you just blabbing your opinion
Yes I have. I won't post my record because at this point it doesn't matter. You've decided I'm wrong and even if I had a 10-0 pro record you'd stick to that opinion because you want to.

so your saying the first UFC 1 -10 didnt have worthy opponents? LOL would you consider yourself a worthy opponent?
I'm saying the number of quality fights was very limited compared to say the early 2000's when pride was at its height and the UFC talent pool was pretty well stacked.


another armchair mouth boxer dale
Well when you find me a TCMA guy who can hold his own against quality opponents then TCMA will have some weight behind it and we'll have something to discuss.




1. When you try to 'proof' your training in TCMA as comparable or worthy to MMA, you immediately put a sport in the same category as centuries old TCMA training. You bear the burden of proof to 'prove' your art is worthy as compared to a mere sport.
No you bear e burden of proof either way. TCMA used to have lei tai to prove how good it was. Some of the old TCMAers boasted supposed records of having defeated a couple hundred guys over a few days. MMA is the same thing. You can either stand up to full contact fighting or you can't.

2. Even if you have a technique that looks similar to a sport technique, the way you develop it and the energy generation of the technique is entirely different and allows you to learn, develop, and eventually master the technique throughout your lifetime so that you do not fall into the trap of "The older you get, the better you was." and "You become a legend in your own mind." By training in the TCMA you love, you become a part of the history of TCMA. That is an honor and a privilege.
Someone's been drinking the look aid. A hook used in "teh d34dly streetz" is the same as a hook used with 4oz gloves. The exact same. All the rest of what you have up there is equally a load of malarkey.

3. Martial training is centuries old. Men have lived and died (mostly died) developing the techniques of TCMA. If the technique did not work, it would have not been remembered. To say that TCMA techniques are not fight-worthy is to dishonor the centuries old martial tradition, martial culture, ancestors of TCMA, and those who died in the perfection of TCMA. One again thank you for sharing such valuable information and I look forward to your future postings.
That's not really a valid argument but here's one that is. If the techniques work you should be able to pull them off against a skilled resisting opponent in a full contact fighting environment. Even the fact that you posted "perfection of TCMA" shows very deluded mental thinking. That you think that an art that hasn't been able to show any quality fighters in the last three decades is the epitome of the fighting arts shows a level of delusion or brain damage that should be checked out by a qualified professional.

[Bacon]

It's similar.

Looks closer to what's in the pic RenDaHai posted, though.

And if that dude is blocking someone next to him, why is he looking forward? And if he's actually taking a blow on his arms somewhere, why are his hands just hanging there? They're going to fly backward as soon as the strike makes contact. At least in the vid TGY posted the guys hands are braced behind his head. And in the pic I posted, his hands are braced on his head.

At least in MMA they practice it the way it will actually look in a fight, rather than facing a different way and doing it differently and blah blah blah.

This is what it looks like when you train it:

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

This is what it looks like when you do it for reals:

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

THIS...

This is the difference between the arts that have shown themselves as effective and those that have not.they practice e way they play.

[RenDaHai]

It's similar.

Looks closer to what's in the pic RenDaHai posted, though.

And if that dude is blocking someone next to him, why is he looking forward? And if he's actually taking a blow on his arms somewhere, why are his hands just hanging there? They're going to fly backward as soon as the strike makes contact. At least in the vid TGY posted the guys hands are braced behind his head. And in the pic I posted, his hands are braced on his head.

At least in MMA they practice it the way it will actually look in a fight, rather than facing a different way and doing it differently and blah blah blah.


Dude, I didn't draw the picture, I posted the first one I found that was the same technique. Its in the large frame. As in, the hands collapse to touch the head, but they can totally be used further away as well. Your not holding the position and letting the guy punch it. You are using power too. But yeah, as I said in the post, you can touch your head, its like brushing your hair.

If I was doing this tech, i would not look forward, I would look to the side. Most of the time we don't even stop in this position in form, it is a dynamic movement as opposed to a stance. But you have to draw the picture somewhere.

Just as often you do the hands one by one as opposed to simultaneously. It is the same move. It has been used for 1000 years and will be used for 1000 more.

[bawang]

It's similar.

Looks closer to what's in the pic RenDaHai posted, though.

And if that dude is blocking someone next to him, why is he looking forward? And if he's actually taking a blow on his arms somewhere, why are his hands just hanging there? They're going to fly backward as soon as the strike makes contact. At least in the vid TGY posted the guys hands are braced behind his head. And in the pic I posted, his hands are braced on his head.

At least in MMA they practice it the way it will actually look in a fight, rather than facing a different way and doing it differently and blah blah blah.

This is what it looks like when you train it:

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

This is what it looks like when you do it for reals:

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

i do this in my form. problem?

[RenDaHai]

TMA vs MMA....

How TCMA people on a TCMA forum feel during this argument;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMvCFlIwMas

[jdhowland]

Pertinent video. It is the same if you were to use one hand. In the video he is using two and doing the perfect version where you step in and hit them with it as well. But when I have tried this technique Often you can't get in fast enough and what happens is you just end up blocking. But the block is just like the guy in the photo is blocking. And it is an effective block.

This appears just as often with just 1 hand, Dan yun ding as opposed to Shuang Yun ding (double cloud peak).

Yes. If you are trying to duck inside a strike while assuming this posture it is already too late to control your opponent's balance with the brush movement. I was taught to make contact with the incoming strike while your arm is still moving into the brush. That way you can draw his body forward into the elbow. I think the demo was showing only half the application, perhaps intentionally.

[RenDaHai]

Yes. If you are trying to duck inside a strike while assuming this posture it is already too late to control your opponent's balance with the brush movement. I was taught to make contact with the incoming strike while your arm is still moving into the brush. That way you can draw his body forward into the elbow. I think the demo was showing only half the application, perhaps intentionally.

Indeed, simultaneously diffusing the force of the strike. Its still a little hard to get into elbow range but you can simply strike out from this already 'cocked' position.

[bawang]

if you protect your face from a punch, you are not training real kung fu. :rolleyes:

[-N-]

I was taught to make contact with the incoming strike while your arm is still moving into the brush..

That part of the motion is what Praying Mantis calls tiou jeong. It is upward flipping palm motion.

Most people think it is just some flowery hand circle motion with no use.

[Bacon]

TMA vs MMA....

How TCMA people on a TCMA forum feel during this argument;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMvCFlIwMas

How many times must I explain? MMA is not a style. It is a ruleset.

It's TMA versus good training and styles which have proven themselves.

[Kellen Bassette]

TCMA gives out what you put into it.

If you want to train TCMA to just learn a bit of culture and get in good shape and have a good time. You can do that.

If you want to train TCMA for MMA and get into the cage/ring and fight with CMA for stand up and throwing supplimented with a ground fighting style. You can do that.

If you want to train TCMA for law enforcement or military purposes. You can do that.

If you want to train TCMA for personal protection and self defense. You can do that.

Exactly right.

[Kellen Bassette]

I Hate Ashida Kim and Bacon obviously can't distinguish between from and application. It's cool. Some people can, some people can't.

However, your statements are wack; because you insist, that since TCMA has esoteric practices and engages in exercises that do not look like the way they fight, that they do not do any training as they fight, or anything fight applicable.

This is just plain wrong.

Your free to debate the validity of esoteric practices and forms, but to say there's no applicable fight training is absurd. Then when you see it; and say no, it's some other art; well that's just ignorant.

So no, no one will ever be able to show you a successful TCMA sport fighter; simply because you will refuse to see it. Someone can show you a fighter with several years of TCMA background. Someone can show you a pro fighter who claims he comes from such and such background and calls himself traditional; and uses techniques inherent to said system...but your always going to say he's doing MT, kick boxing or boxing. Regardless of what his history is.

Apparently, if I train Kung Fu for 15 years; and a boxer holds mitts for me for a couple of sessions; then all my fight training is boxing.

And Bacon, you talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say TCMA isn't applicable to fighting; but speak about what benefits WC gives you as an overall fighter.

And that makes sense to you????

[Kellen Bassette]

me imagining old skool MA
----
"Punching people in the throat rocks!"
"Cool, lets practice. What if he tries to hit you?"
"Block it and punch him in the throat"
"Dude, what do you do if a guy grabs you?"
"Punch him in the throat."

No air punching or forms. Just two dudes working out the nuances of punching each other in the throat.

Forms came later... much much later. I think opium may have been involved.

LOL...nice....

[Kellen Bassette]

I will believe TCMA is effective at fighting against trained opponents when I see someone win a MMA match using TCMA techniques.

This is not a TCMA fighting stance:

http://www.theonetwopunch.com/images/fittip1199.jpg

This is not a TCMA block:

http://i.imgur.com/k3Puz.jpg

If you use these techniques, you are not doing TCMA (at least not at that moment).

That is the TCMA fighting stance.
That is a traditional block.

[bawang]

I Hate Ashida Kim and Bacon obviously can't distinguish between from and application. It's cool. Some people can, some people can't.


he says tcma trains unrealistically, and trains wing chun.

the lulz is strong with this one

[omarthefish]

This is not a TCMA block:

I agree. He's doing it wrong. It's a traditional TCMA attack.

Here, I took a quick screen cap from the vid in my sig of me using it in a leitai match:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-15_uF1yFAto/UPoc6OFMrRI/AAAAAAAAD2s/hN0PkMtOZRI/s312/%E9%A1%B6%E8%82%98cropped.jpeg

And yeah, classic Baji.

[Bacon]

I Hate Ashida Kim and Bacon obviously can't distinguish between from and application. It's cool. Some people can, some people can't.

However, your statements are wack; because you insist, that since TCMA has esoteric practices and engages in exercises that do not look like the way they fight, that they do not do any training as they fight, or anything fight applicable.

This is just plain wrong.

Your free to debate the validity of esoteric practices and forms, but to say there's no applicable fight training is absurd. Then when you see it; and say no, it's some other art; well that's just ignorant.

So no, no one will ever be able to show you a successful TCMA sport fighter; simply because you will refuse to see it. Someone can show you a fighter with several years of TCMA background. Someone can show you a pro fighter who claims he comes from such and such background and calls himself traditional; and uses techniques inherent to said system...but your always going to say he's doing MT, kick boxing or boxing. Regardless of what his history is.

Apparently, if I train Kung Fu for 15 years; and a boxer holds mitts for me for a couple of sessions; then all my fight training is boxing.

And Bacon, you talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say TCMA isn't applicable to fighting; but speak about what benefits WC gives you as an overall fighter.

And that makes sense to you????

Yes it does, just like breakdancing would for BJJ.

The point is when you train one way and fight another, and your application looks suspiciously like a bad imitation of the way certain other arts train AND fight, and they consistently fight better than you then nothing you say holds any weight. The proof is in the pudding and TCMA has no pudding.

[YouKnowWho]

If you can only teach someone a single TCMA technique, which technique will you teach him? IMO, the most important technique is to take care of your opponent's "head hunting". If you can hold both of your hands infront of your face and make it into a "big fist", you then hide your head behind it. When your opponent punches at you, you just turn your big fist along with your head to deflect that punch, you then use your big fist to punch on your opponent's face.

http://www.urbancombatives.com/monkey1.gif

IMO, this approach is too "conservative". If your opponent puts you in 100% defense mode, your own hand and arm even cover your own eyes, it's not good.

The following 2 drills are part of my guy's daily training:

- You move in, your opponent throws jab and cross at you.
- Your opponent moves in and throws jab and cross at you.

In either cases, you use left Gua to deflect the right jab, right Gua to deflect the left cross, you then "cut" both your arms into your opponent's upper arms and give him a left arm wrap followed by a right arm head lock. When you get better and better, you will skip the comb hair part and just "cut" into your opponent's upper arm and ignore his fists. In TCMA, it's called 分手(Fen Shou) that is more aggressive than "comb hair" or "carzy monkey". If you move in, you take your opponent down with "head lock front cut". If your opponent moves in, you take him down with "head lock leg block".

In the following clip, from his double arms protecting head (SC guys use it in break fall) and explaining "face changing" to his student, I can tell that he has experience in Chinese wrestling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTA3gkOf29E

[Kellen Bassette]

If you can only teach someone a single TCMA technique, which technique will you teach him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTA3gkOf29E

I don't know, but it sure can't be jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, spinning backfist, front kick, side kick, round kick, knee or elbow.

All those techniques are copyrighted by styles that came centuries after TCMA. :rolleyes:

[bawang]

I don't know, but it sure can't be jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, spinning backfist, front kick, side kick, round kick, knee or elbow.

All those techniques are copyrighted by styles that came centuries after TCMA. :rolleyes:

tcma is criticized in mma not for its stand up, its criticized for lack of ground game and unwillingness to learn ground game. so those wing chunners whining is really confusing to me.

[Kellen Bassette]

tcma is criticized in mma not for its stand up, its criticized for lack of ground game and unwillingness to learn ground game. so those wing chunners whining is really confusing to me.

Yeah..I can't make heads or tails of it either.

[RenDaHai]

IMO, this approach is too "conservative". If your opponent puts you in 100% defense mode, your own hand and arm even cover your own eyes, it's not good.
[/url]

Agreed.

This is why I advocate the use of perspex face masks in training this technique. It is important to be able to use this technique to both guard and break through. Without the mask this one is a little dangerous to practice as a vertical elbow in the face is no joke. It can be very powerful, but it is difficult to explore vertical elbows in sparring as it is against most rule sets and quite dangerous, hence the masks.

You Fang you gong.

This is also why we have a large frame and small frame. I the large frame the elbows are held more like in the hung gar picture., further from the head. But this technique will be ignored by some people because vertical elbows are illegal in most rule sets.


My Favourite technique of all is Yang Zhuang Chang, Goat head butts a wall.

Front hand holds back of head, rear hand is accross face holding opposite shoulder, chin buried in crook of elbow. Then you head butt, striking with both elbows and head simultaneously. Like you say, a giant fist?

Very powerful, and if it misses, just open the hands into pi zhang. You can turn the waist to emphasize one of the elbows if you want more range.

[Bacon]

I don't know, but it sure can't be jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, spinning backfist, front kick, side kick, round kick, knee or elbow.

All those techniques are copyrighted by styles that came centuries after TCMA. :rolleyes:

Which came after kalaripayattu and a few other styles. If you want to play the origins game go right ahead because there are far older styles which gave birth to CMA.

It's not about who got there first but about who does it better and TCMA simply isn't where it's at. You can't find me a single fighter out of UFC, Pride, Pancrase, Vale Tudo, etc who is a pure TCMAer but I can find you plenty who were pure boxer/wrestlers, or kickboxer/judoka, or even just bjj guys in the old days.


tcma is criticized in mma not for its stand up, its criticized for lack of ground game and unwillingness to learn ground game. so those wing chunners whining is really confusing to me.

TCMA has a stand up game it's just terrible. It actually has okay stand up grappling in terms of shuai jiao it's just not integrated with the striking. The ground game is non existent but what TCMA does have they get beaten at by wrestlers, the occasional judoka, and other striking styles with more modern training.

[MightyB]

why Kano's students were destroyed by the Kosen Judo guys back in the day.


They were all Kano's students. Tokyo University preferred throwing. The Kosen guys were still Kano Ju Jitsu or what we call Judo, they just preferred NeWaza because they were smaller than the Tokyo guys.

[EarthDragon]

BACON
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
so again bacon who have you fought? have you ever fought or are you just blabbing your opinion

Yes I have. I won't post my record because at this point it doesn't matter. You've decided I'm wrong and even if I had a 10-0 pro record you'd stick to that opinion because you want to.

not true at all............. are you 10-0? are you any and 0? I was asking you to post fighting success before you criticize others for theirs. not really fair you havent made it as a professional or amtaure fighter havent fought anyone, but yet you put others down for only wining in the UFC twice
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
so your saying the first UFC 1 -10 didnt have worthy opponents? LOL would you consider yourself a worthy opponent?


I'm saying the number of quality fights was very limited compared to say the early 2000's when pride was at its height and the UFC talent pool was pretty well stacked.

whaty about joyce graci dan severan oleg taktari ken shamrock etcetc what do you consider them not quality fighter tank abbot ie great fighter KO the crap out of most of the people hes ever fought.before he had to go to the ground


Well when you find me a TCMA guy who can hold his own against quality opponents then TCMA will have some weight behind it and we'll have something to discuss.

LOL this post doesn't even deserve a response. get your head out of MMA is the best and everything else is infirior, it make you sound narrow minded.

[RenDaHai]

TCMA has a stand up game it's just terrible. It actually has okay stand up grappling in terms of shuai jiao it's just not integrated with the striking. The ground game is non existent but what TCMA does have they get beaten at by wrestlers, the occasional judoka, and other striking styles with more modern training.

Mr. Bacon,

I have said time and again the main difference is between territorial violence and predatorial violence.

If you haven't experienced it to a dangerous level it may be hard to understand the difference but you can read up on it.

Ever encountered someone who literally wants to murder you? They don't jab tentatively and back off and circle. This doesn't happen. It is a completely different game from the base up and its not about techniques being too dangerous or rules getting in the way. It is about the situation. The psychology. The consequences of your actions and the contemplation of them. The ability to make decisions under pressure.

In a ring fight all the decisions are made for you;

Do I fight or run? Fight, thats the game. How much force do I use, where do I hit? There are strict rules. Is he trying to kill me? No, its a match. Does he have friends? No, it will be one on one. Does he have a weapon? No. Will I get in trouble if I hurt him? No, it is sanctioned. Will a doctor be near if I am hurt? Yes, there is one on standby and I am surrounded by friends. Will he seek vengence? No, its a match. Will he use dirty moves? No, the rules bind him too. Are my friends in danger? No, they are safe. Will I get beaten to a pulp? Possibly, but I can stop the fight whenever I wish.

You see these and many more are the questions that go through your head when things kick off, but the thing is you don't know the answer to ANY of them. That cripples you with indecision.

Being committed to a course of action makes you strong, but indecision makes you weak. In a ring you know all the answers so you can fight in a set way. This is somewhat true during all territorial violence, there is a way out and it is about vanity more than anything.

But predatorial violence? You can't know the answer to ANY of these questions. That makes it really really hard to fight. You simply cannot fight in the same way as you do in the ring or in any very predictable manner as every situation is different. You need something with more options and more strategies and more wisdom.

During predatory violence attack is NOT always the best form of defence. It is a different game.

I agree entirely that the training methods of MMA are excellent. Testing under pressure. But when you see Kung fu and you don't see these methods, you throw the baby out with the bath water. All the Kung fu techniques are excellent too. Off course if you want to weaponise them you need to train them under pressure. But that is up to the individual.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

How many times must I explain? MMA is not a style. It is a ruleset.

It could be argued to the contrary, however.

Ok, I agree with you that it's a ruleset, because in an MMA event like UFC, you technically can use whatever techniques you want. You could use TKD if you wanted. You could use aikiko if you wanted. You could use kung fu if you wanted (as long as you leave out the "too deadly for the ring" stuff ;) ).

That being said, all MMA fighters tend to use pretty much the same techniques.

I suspect that in the future, "MMA" will come to mean "the style made up of boxing, MT, BJJ, and wrestling, along with their associated training techniques."

Even now, when someone says they train MMA, you automatically think boxing, MT, BJJ, and wrestling. You don't think "I bet that guy does karate and tai chi and capoeira" even though that would technically also be MMA.


It's TMA versus good training and styles which have proven themselves.

I think that "MMA techniques" (as described above) are what you are left with when you remove all the stuff that doesn't work through trial and error.

There's a reason the first UFCs had people using different styles that looked different, and why current UFCs have guys that all pretty much do the same thing.

By this same reasoning, you can say that some techniques are better or more effective than others.

The evidence is all around you every time you watch a UFC or Pride. Everyone pretty much stands in a boxing type stance. There is minimal use of side stanes. Why? Side stances are less effective.

Everyone pretty much throws boxing jabs and crosses and hooks (with the occasional spinning backfist for the element of surprise). There is mininal use of wing chun vertical punches. Why? Wing chun vertical punches are less effective.

Everyone pretty much tries to avoid punches or absorbs them with a shell type of defense. There is minimal use of blocks that reach out to intercept the opponents strike. Why? Reaching blocks are less effective.

Everyone pretty much throws Muay Thai roundhouse kicks. There is minimal use of savate style kicking. Why? Savate style kicking is less effective.

etc.

What is hilarious are the people who say that even though what UFC guys do looks nothing like their traditional art, they still try to pass it off as a traditional art. "That boxing punch is using wing chun principles, therefore it is wing chun!" lol.

I mean they might as well say "that guy is in a fighting stance. Snake kung fu has a fighting stance. Therefore he is using snake kung fu!"

There are specific techniques used by different styles.

You can tell what they are when someone is using them, just like you can tell what language someone is speaking by listening (assuming of course you are familiar with that language).

Sometimes there is a little crossover. English uses the phrase "deja vu," but that doesn't mean English is French.

Just because a TCMA technique appears somewhere in a UFC fight doesn't mean UFC fighters are using TCMA.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTA3gkOf29E

Show me someone using that "rush in and put my elbows over my head" technique from that vid against a resisting opponent.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

RenDaHai, can you please define "large frame" and "small frame"? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by them.

[RenDaHai]

RenDaHai, can you please define "large frame" and "small frame"? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by them.

Sure,

If we take an individual technique, a motion, it can be done extended or shortened but it is still the same technique.

For example If my hand is above my head, I can hold it way above my head with my arm straight, or I can have my hand resting on my forehead, it is the same technique done in the large or small frame.

If I rotate my hands for a wrist lock, I can use exactly the same rotation on someones whole arm, or on someones head, or on head and arm together. They are all the same technique done in different sizes, different frames.

Often with guards the hands can reach out in the large frame, but collapse back to form a triangular structure pressing against the body in the small frame.

[RenDaHai]

Everyone pretty much throws boxing jabs and crosses and hooks (with the occasional spinning backfist for the element of surprise). There is mininal use of wing chun vertical punches. Why? Wing chun vertical punches are less effective.

Everyone pretty much tries to avoid punches or absorbs them with a shell type of defense. There is minimal use of blocks that reach out to intercept the opponents strike. Why? Reaching blocks are less effective.

Everyone pretty much throws Muay Thai roundhouse kicks. There is minimal use of savate style kicking. Why? Savate style kicking is less effective.


And once you have gashed your knuckles accross someones teeth w/o a glove on, you will think twice about how you punch again.

And when you are in a situation where you want 100% defence and you are not attacking (happens more often than you think) sometimes you need to reach for a block.

One day you will throw a muay thai kick at someone and they will snap kick you straight in the balls which you left open because you are standing with your legs open or kicking roundhouse style.


The moves used in MMA are there because they are the most effective under the current set of rules. The earlier fights had different rules. Vertical elbows like the one we are talking about are illegal for example.

The current set of rules for MMA are there to make the fight interesting to watch for the spectators. Not too short and over too quickly and not too long hugging on the floor without anything happening. And realistically affordable for insurance. And not too gruesome for state laws. These are the kind of things they think about when making the rules. Not what makes it the best fighting system.

If it was the most effective combat system, don't you think there would be a lot more serious injuries? Do you think they would let kids do it?

The great fighters of MMA are great fighters not because of the techniques they use, but because they are great fighters. They would be great with any set of techniques you give them. It doesn't mean the specific set of techniques used in MMA are the all time best.

[Bernard]

And once you have gashed your knuckles accross someones teeth w/o a glove on, you will think twice about how you punch again.

And when you are in a situation where you want 100% defence and you are not attacking (happens more often than you think) sometimes you need to reach for a block.

One day you will throw a muay thai kick at someone and they will snap kick you straight in the balls which you left open because you are standing with your legs open or kicking roundhouse style.


The moves used in MMA are there because they are the most effective under the current set of rules. The earlier fights had different rules. Vertical elbows like the one we are talking about are illegal for example.

The current set of rules for MMA are there to make the fight interesting to watch for the spectators. Not too short and over too quickly and not too long hugging on the floor without anything happening. And realistically affordable for insurance. And not too gruesome for state laws. These are the kind of things they think about when making the rules. Not what makes it the best fighting system.

If it was the most effective combat system, don't you think there would be a lot more serious injuries? Do you think they would let kids do it?

It would be difficult to deny the logic in this argument. There will be those who try, but then for some there is a fine line between "logic" and "rationalization". :D

[Jimbo]

In that case it's no longer martial arts. It's just arts. It becomes dance essentially.




Well yes in terms of weapons but as for the ground grappling almost all of the JMAs were exclusively stand up oriented, hence why Kano's students were destroyed by the Kosen Judo guys back in the day.

Empty-handed JMA traditionally placed more emphasis on ground grappling than CMA for various reasons, a major reason being the custom of sitting/kneeling on the floor, thus the greater chance of being attacked in such a position. Of course, the amount of emphasis would have varied. But the heavy emphasis on standing throws *at the expense of* adequate ground work was a comparatively recent trend in judo/jujutsu.

[mawali]

I would say that the ground work seen in MMA type competition today is relatively new. Previous karate and judo competitions only relied on the equivalent hit, punch and throw scenarios unitl BJJ started to (incorporate) the ne-waza techniques pf pre WWII since its modus operandi was ground work.

Even many of the karate folk who thought they had an edge (those brave enough to challenge themselves) realized they had no ground game when compared to 'ne-waza technology' of BJJ.

[EarthDragon]

I love how people like bacon and frost feel the need to come on TCMA website and belittle the entire culture and art based on a thier sport with rules and some nice guy to break it up for you when you say uncle and you are about to tap to save your a$$.

[bawang]

I love how people like bacon and frost feel the need to come on TCMA website and belittle the entire culture and art based on a thier sport with rules and some nice guy to break it up for you when you say uncle and you are about to tap to save your a$$.
in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

[YouKnowWho]

TCMA has a stand up game it's just terrible. It actually has okay stand up grappling in terms of shuai jiao it's just not integrated with the striking.

I just have to put up this clip again. The "integration" of kick, punch, lock, throw, following on striking (not ground game) is the strong point of the TCMA. If you can make your combo work twice within 15 seconds against a full resistence opponent, it's not luck but "plan". A working "plan" against a full resistence opponent will require some serious training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aQjFWNyK3g

[Frost]

I love how people like bacon and frost feel the need to come on TCMA website and belittle the entire culture and art based on a thier sport with rules and some nice guy to break it up for you when you say uncle and you are about to tap to save your a$$.

i was staying out of this, but since you mentioned me by name: firstly if i was you id stop the whole i trained a ufc fighter bit, you didnt train him your master did you were a sparring partner, and the first time you brought this up you inferred he wone ufc 6 and came back in 7 as a main eventer, he was an alternete n both and you got called on bother these bits of misinformation

heres a couple of quotes to jog your memory


Joel my kung fu brother who I trained with could fight in it.,


my kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won..

Secondly unlike you i have experience in both MMA and TCMA at a fairly good level and still train both i just like to call bullsh&t on people blowing smoke thats all and those are mostly tcma guys.

And if i had to put money on most of the tcma guys or the MMA guys i know in a real fight, my money is on the sports guys nearly everytime, the few times id back a tcma guy its usally one who also also done a sport MA as well, go figure

[Lucas]

Bacon, you should enter art of war mma circuit....if you can qualify, then beat every tcma guy there. There are plenty of tcma guys that can hold their own around the world.

[YouKnowWho]

Show me someone using that "rush in and put my elbows over my head" technique from that vid against a resisting opponent.
The non-Chinese guy (without shirt) has only 100% TCMA training (no boxing, no MT, no wrestling).

At

- 0.38, he charged in and changed his "comb hair" into "reverse head lock (guillotine)".
- 0.52, his opponent charged in. He changed his "comb hair" into "head lock".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jpty7nwC1Q

[Lucas]

Look guys there are tcma guys who ARE mma sport amd tcma guys. There doesnt have to be a seperation. You can be both.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know, but it sure can't be jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, spinning backfist, front kick, side kick, round kick, knee or elbow.

All those techniques are copyrighted by styles that came centuries after TCMA. :rolleyes:

Those are all good techniques. But it can only be used in offense and cannot be used in defense. The big fist (double Gua - comb hair) technique can be used in both offense and defense. If you can only pick up one technique that can be used in both offense and defense, there are not that many techniques in TCMA can fall into that category.

[MightyB]

I would say that the ground work seen in MMA type competition today is relatively new. Previous karate and judo competitions only relied on the equivalent hit, punch and throw scenarios unitl BJJ started to (incorporate) the ne-waza techniques pf pre WWII since its modus operandi was ground work.

Even many of the karate folk who thought they had an edge (those brave enough to challenge themselves) realized they had no ground game when compared to 'ne-waza technology' of BJJ.

You guys need to find Judoka who earned their black belts in the 60's. BJJ ain't got nothing on them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korAyURbW6c

I do both btw.

[EarthDragon]

Frost,
He was my student first before he trained under my Shrifu then we became brothers. get your facts straight.

May I ask what UFC where you in? oh yeah forgot you said your not good enough, or too old or something, however don't dismiss the fact that TCMA was successful in the ring and won bouts alternate and main events its been proven except it and move on. your waaay to stubborn and bitter you nee to let it go as this is the only thing you talk about when on these boards.
Perhaps you can preach to the MMA guys but your opinion here is not respected when you constantly go out of your way to trash TCMA. If you don't like it than thats fine but to have TCMA and say it sucks and is no good shows your character. :D

[EarthDragon]

lucas
QUOTE]Look guys there are tcma guys who ARE mma sport amd tcma guys. There doesn't have to be a separation. You can be both. [/QUOTE]

I agree but these new MMA think they invented fighting and its MMA or nothing, simple minds think simply. again i fought with no rules and no referees to break up a MMA fight when you are getting beat up.

newbie MMA wannbies=sheeple people I have MMA gym I have coaches teaching bjj aikido wreslting boxing and of course kung fu.

Cobra MMA is are full blown MMA gym. I have people walking into saying I want to train MMA I say OK enroll with all the coaches and take a class, and see what you like to do and haw fr you want to go.......... 90% of the time they respond no I dont want to do boxing or kung fu or wrestling I just wan to just BJJ MMA............. my response is well that not MMA.

Most people don't even know what MMA is. my style has 14 styles integrated into it, technically 8 step is MMA

[Frost]

Frost,
He was my student first before he trained under my Shrifu then we became brothers. get your facts straight.

May I ask what UFC where you in? oh yeah forgot you said your not good enough, or too old or something, however don't dismiss the fact that TCMA was successful in the ring and won bouts alternate and main events its been proven except it and move on. your waaay to stubborn and bitter you nee to let it go as this is the only thing you talk about when on these boards.
Perhaps you can preach to the MMA guys but your opinion here is not respected when you constantly go out of your way to trash TCMA. If you don't like it than thats fine but to have TCMA and say it sucks and is no good shows your character. :D
he was one person successful in 2 out of 6 matches and you havent produced anyone, not then and not in the 18 years since so get off his coatails lol

get your facts straight you lied, your sifu trained him for the UFC not you, you also lied about him winning the ufc 6, he was an alternate, getting character lessons from you LMAO :)

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

And once you have gashed your knuckles accross someones teeth w/o a glove on, you will think twice about how you punch again.

And when you are in a situation where you want 100% defence and you are not attacking (happens more often than you think) sometimes you need to reach for a block.

One day you will throw a muay thai kick at someone and they will snap kick you straight in the balls which you left open because you are standing with your legs open or kicking roundhouse style.


The moves used in MMA are there because they are the most effective under the current set of rules. The earlier fights had different rules. Vertical elbows like the one we are talking about are illegal for example.

The current set of rules for MMA are there to make the fight interesting to watch for the spectators. Not too short and over too quickly and not too long hugging on the floor without anything happening. And realistically affordable for insurance. And not too gruesome for state laws. These are the kind of things they think about when making the rules. Not what makes it the best fighting system.

If it was the most effective combat system, don't you think there would be a lot more serious injuries? Do you think they would let kids do it?

So too deadly for the ring, amirite?

That must be why TCMA guys won all the early UFCs when they allowed groin strikes.

Oh, wait...



The great fighters of MMA are great fighters not because of the techniques they use, but because they are great fighters. They would be great with any set of techniques you give them. It doesn't mean the specific set of techniques used in MMA are the all time best.

Well sure they are good athletes, but if they trained in a different technique skillset I don 't think they would be MMA champions.

It's awfully funny how the great fighters all just happen to train MMA. Strange coincidence.

It comes down to the fact that there are certain techniques (and therefore certain styles) that are better than others for fighting.

And with these certain techniques, there are certain styles of training that are better than others for fighting.


I just have to put up this clip again. The "integration" of kick, punch, lock, throw, following on striking (not ground game) is the strong point of the TCMA. If you can make your combo work twice within 15 seconds against a full resistence opponent, it's not luck but "plan". A working "plan" against a full resistence opponent will require some serious training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aQjFWNyK3g

Looks like boxing stances and I saw a Muay Thai round kick in there (follwed by a side kick, which I admit is very TMA).

@everyone else, you don't have to be a UFC fighter to have a valid opinion. An old man in a wheel chair can tell you that boxing techniques work better than TKD reverse punches against a resisting opponent. Can he put his money where his mouth is? No. But is he right? Yes. And there is so much evidence to support the fact that he is right that only a fool who has no other response would suggest that he enter the UFC. Cuz he's an old man in a wheelchair.

As others have pointed out, why is that always the response of the TCMAist? "Why don't you do better?"

Not everyone has the desire/ability to be a champion fighter. That doesn't mean their opinion is invalid.

For any individual who studies fighting, he has the best chance of success by studying the highest percentage moves and training them against resisting opponents. The moves that don't work well will quickly be dropped. Chances are he won't be throwing reverse punches from a side stance after doing a high block, because that kind of thing doesn't really work against resisting opponents.

[RenDaHai]

So too deadly for the ring, amirite?


Ok, I will try to change tact, but I am being civil so please at least try to understand;

Lets say I concede that MMA is the best fighting style ever.

Does that mean TCMA is outdated? Does that mean people should always choose MMA over TCMA?

No. Have you ever taken a beat down my friend? There are many different violent situations you can be in, and not all of them are solved by destroying the opponent or by being the 'better fighter'. There are times when using an offensive style will do much less for you than using a defensive one.

History is replete of examples of cunning and strategy used to defeat the stronger.

In your mind the only way to win is to destroy the opponent. And while that is true in a ring, that is not the way of the world, and that is not the way of Gong Fu.

Re-read my post on territorial and predatorial violence and maybe, one day, it will make sense to you.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1206627...

Lets say I concede that MMA is the best fighting style ever.

Does that mean TCMA is outdated? Does that mean people should always choose MMA over TCMA?


Re-read my post on territorial and predatorial violence and maybe, one day, it will make sense to you.[/QUOTE]

One of the reasons I emphasize the idea of TCMA as a society it that in some cases the fighting strategy was to have brothers backing you up. The men who fought in the southern rebellions in the early nineteenth century weren't planning on taking on armed soldiers alone. Same applies to tcma as training for the triad "soldiers" and their supporting youth gangs.

Before someone jumps on this to say that tcma isn't adequate for group strategy I will say in advance that I agree, but only because of the way the martial schools opened up to the general public and sought mass appeal. There is some evidence that it was different 160 years ago.

[Kellen Bassette]

Which came after kalaripayattu and a few other styles. If you want to play the origins game go right ahead because there are far older styles which gave birth to CMA.

It's not about who got there first but about who does it better and TCMA simply isn't where it's at. You can't find me a single fighter out of UFC, Pride, Pancrase, Vale Tudo, etc who is a pure TCMAer but I can find you plenty who were pure boxer/wrestlers, or kickboxer/judoka, or even just bjj guys in the old days.



Sure, there may be a few older styles, but I don't think you can prove northern Kung Fu was developed from a south Indian art 3000 years ago. Pretty unlikely.They probably developed independently. You can prove, however, that the Japanese arts, and their derivatives, were descended directly from CMAs; and it's at least likely that Muay Boran and the other Indo/Chinese arts were, at a minimum, influenced by TCMA.

Who is pure anything in the UFC???????????

[Kellen Bassette]

That being said, all MMA fighters tend to use pretty much the same techniques.



That's because, at the base of all striking styles, the fundamentals and applications are essentially the same.

I agree with you guys that you have to hit bags, pads, partner train, practice the techs you want to use in sparring, the way they will be used. But IMO you and Bacon are wrong for attributing what is essentially the essence of all striking to the styles of your liking.

They are all similar at the core. Not the same but similar; and a lot of the flavor and nuances go out the window anyway in an open rule set fight. Your usually left with just the bare fundamentals of the strike.

[Syn7]

Well that's the problem isn't it. The ones that don't adapt and don't change no longer work really. The ones that do just end up looking like kickboxing, muay thai, wrestling, and boxing. Honestly I'd love to see someone make pure, or even modified TCMA that actually looks like TCMA, work innthe ring. When you find a video let me know but I think it'll be a long wait.

What does it matter how it looks? Fighting isn't like movies. If you use the principles you learn in TCMA and adapt it to work in whatever your scenario is, who gives a **** how it looks. The reason why it looks less stylized is because stylized doesn't mean effective. People need to understand the diff between art and application. Any system broken down to it's basics will always look more "bland". But why is that bad? This isn't a performance, it'/s combat. It's about winning, not looking neat!

[Kellen Bassette]

Look guys there are tcma guys who ARE mma sport amd tcma guys. There doesnt have to be a seperation. You can be both.

Wow...what amazing insight! Who ever could possibly not understand this????:cool:

[Kellen Bassette]

Those are all good techniques. But it can only be used in offense and cannot be used in defense. The big fist (double Gua - comb hair) technique can be used in both offense and defense. If you can only pick up one technique that can be used in both offense and defense, there are not that many techniques in TCMA can fall into that category.

Respectfully disagree YKW. My favorite move is the lead leg side kick. I use it, for the most part as, a defense against the jab or cross. I try not to use it as an attack, but a counter while I'm being attacked. But I do like Comb the Hair, as well.

[Kellen Bassette]

May I ask what UFC where you in?

It takes a special kind of person to belittle anyone who has fought in the UFC; unless they are willing to share their similar experience.

[Kellen Bassette]

Not everyone has the desire/ability to be a champion fighter. That doesn't mean their opinion is invalid.


No it doesn't. But there are lots of TCMA guys who fight in lots of different rule sets. If they all don't have a UFC title belt or a 20 and 0 pro record, that doesn't mean they suck. You'll be hard pressed to find an MMA guy in your local gym that meets your lofty standards, either.

Also, if said TCMA dude has a winning record, that doesn't mean he secretly downloaded the Muay Thai disc the night before when they were installing the Martial Arts data base in his matrix.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ok, I will try to change tact, but I am being civil so please at least try to understand;



Better rethink your methods. Being civil is not a high percentage technique in this format. :p

[EarthDragon]

kellen



It takes a special kind of person to belittle anyone who has fought in the UFC; unless they are willing to share their similar experience.

Thank you Kellen. Ya gotta love the internet because it allows anyone to talk the real tough talk smack without having to walk the tough walk. It real easy to criticize others without having accomplished it yourself. People are people. mouth boxers are a dime a dozen but they keeps us laughing



FROST

he was one person successful in 2 out of 6 matches and you haven't produced anyone, not then and not in the 18 years since so get off his coatails lol

Who have you produced? I ask again, I still produced more than you so time to stop talking smack.


get your facts straight you lied, your sifu trained him for the UFC not you, you also lied about him winning the ufc 6, he was an alternate, getting character lessons from you LMAO

LOL get my facts straight? ITS MY LIFE I live it don't you live in the UK and yet you know more about my personal facts than I do, give it rest. go train. PS I never said it was the main event I sadi he won his both his bouts. its on tape you can watch for yourself the main event was Ken shamarock and severan. I would never say that my students fought one of them. So enough wit the story telling.

Sorry everyone is my posts are derailing the thread just cleaning house..:)

[YouKnowWho]

Respectfully disagree YKW. My favorite move is the lead leg side kick. I use it, for the most part as, a defense against the jab or cross. I try not to use it as an attack, but a counter while I'm being attacked. But I do like Comb the Hair, as well.

I did forget to mention that the single technique must be able to learn in a short period of time (such as 1 month). Any effective kick will take average 6 months to develop. To hide your head behind your big fist, run toward your opponent like a mad man, and try to land your big fist on your opponent's face is not that hard to do (compare to a side kick). All you need may be just "courage" and some running ability. :D

[MightyB]

a TCMA guy and a BJJ square off to fight





















I throw them both spears
Who wins?

[EarthDragon]

MightyB


TCMA guy and a BJJ square off to fight



I throw them both spears
Who wins? the TCMA

the TCMA guy........................... he would be standing and the bjj would be on the ground, therefore catch the spear and throw. dead BJJ

[IronFist]

Ok, I will try to change tact, but I am being civil so please at least try to understand;

Lets say I concede that MMA is the best fighting style ever.

Does that mean TCMA is outdated? Does that mean people should always choose MMA over TCMA?

No. Have you ever taken a beat down my friend? There are many different violent situations you can be in, and not all of them are solved by destroying the opponent or by being the 'better fighter'. There are times when using an offensive style will do much less for you than using a defensive one.

I think the point that a few people in this thread are trying to make is that MMA techniques are the best skillset available for a one on one confrontation.

You are right, there are different violent situations one can find himself in.

I'm also on the "MMA is the best technique" side of the argument (as evidenced by the lack of TCMA techniques found in most UFC/NHB type events), but that being said, I don't think boxing/MT/BJJ is the best for 100% of situations.

I've given the example here before of the time I used a pak da (Wing Chun technique) when someone was threatening me with their hand against my chest. It was the right technique for that scenario. A boxing jab was the wrong technique. A cross was the wrong technique. A shell defense wouldn't have made any sense. Pak da was the right response.

Now that being said, a lot of TCMA training involves leaving punches extended so your training partner can do 10 hit combos on you. That will never happen against a resisting opponent. But in the above scenario, the dude had his arm extended, just sitting out there. He wasn't throwing a punch.

I wouldn't use pak da against a punch because I'm not able to make it work against resisting opponents, especially if they are good at faking. I don't think Wing Chun techniques are the best against a resisting opponent, especially if that resisting opponent is a boxer (this is based on my experience of trying to make Wing Chun techniques work against resisting opponents). Now maybe someone here can do it, and good for them, but I cannot.

So if I'm squared off against someone and it's established that we're fighting, I'm not going to use Wing Chun techniques. I'm going to use boxing/MT/BJJ.

But if a person has their arm extended against my chest and is just leaving in there like what happened in the example above, then Wing Chun techniques might be the right solution.

I've also remarked before that I think Wing Chun techniques can be a good initial response if you're just standing there and someone comes out of nowhere and attacks you. But again, once the fight is "on," I don't think they're as good, based not only on my own experience trying to use them against resisting opponents, but also based on the fact that no professional fighters use Wing Chun techniques.

In other words, there is no evidence anywhere of Wing Chun being used to defeat resisting, non-Wing Chun attackers. Wing Chun is great against Wing Chun guys (but so is boxing). If Wing Chun were effective in one on one scenarios against resisting attackers I think it would've been incorporated into the training of high level MMA guys by now.

But as I said above, I do think Wing Chun has value, especially if you can train some of its simultaneous strike/block techniques into your startle response. Not only is it effective when you're caught off guard, but most people aren't going to expect that response from you.

[IronFist]

You guys who think a lack of TCMA winners in UFC doesn't mean it's not effective for fighting, I want to understand where you're coming from.

Do you believe:

(choose all that apply)

1) TCMA doesn't do well in UFC because UFC is a specific rule set that prevents TCMA from being used effectively. But in a no rules confrontation the TCMA guy would beat the UFC guy.

2) UFC fighters utilize TCMA principles and therefore they are still doing TCMA even if it doesn't look like TCMA forms. A punch is just a punch.

3) There are no best styles. There are only best martial artists. A good martial artist will be successful no matter what system he studies.

4) A group of techniques from style x is no better or worse than a group of similar but different techniques from style y (for example, an Isshinryu vertical punch vs. a Wing Chun vertical punch, or a TKD reverse punch vs. a boxing cross).

5) UFC fighters are using TCMA techniques that have been adapted to fit their sport.

[omarthefish]

But as I said above, I do think Wing Chun has value, especially if you can train some of its simultaneous strike/block techniques into your startle response. Not only is it effective when you're caught off guard, but most people aren't going to expect that response from you.

Buddy of mine I used to work with who I had a bit of an "inpector Clouseau/Kato" relationship with had another friend of his ambush me from behind while I was sitting at a bar having a drink after work. Like not viciously attack me or anything but a tap on the shoulder and then try to sucker punch me when I turned around...I mean like light sparring power. I turned around and met his couple punches with instinctive double vertical punches up the center line deflecting them both. We had a laugh and he said, "Oh, you train WC?"

Actually I've never trained it. Was definitely a Hung Gar guy at the time but they're both southern shaolin and a lot more similar than most people realize. Point is, yeah, firing off a couple of quick verticle punches when startled worked great.

[Frost]

kellen


Thank you Kellen. Ya gotta love the internet because it allows anyone to talk the real tough talk smack without having to walk the tough walk. It real easy to criticize others without having accomplished it yourself. People are people. mouth boxers are a dime a dozen but they keeps us laughing




Who have you produced? I ask again, I still produced more than you so time to stop talking smack.


LOL get my facts straight? ITS MY LIFE I live it don't you live in the UK and yet you know more about my personal facts than I do, give it rest. go train. PS I never said it was the main event I sadi he won his both his bouts. its on tape you can watch for yourself the main event was Ken shamarock and severan. I would never say that my students fought one of them. So enough wit the story telling.

Sorry everyone is my posts are derailing the thread just cleaning house..:)

Lol cleaning house i posted 2 examples of quotes from you where you said you were simply his training partner and Sun trained him for the UFC, in your own words, if i could be bothered id search for the thread where knifefighter and myself called you on saying he won the ufc 6 and 7, others probably remember it too and its not the first time you mentioned it, see the quotes below

From you saying Joel won his division in ufc 6


EARTH DRAGON
Guest Posts: n/a

joel sutton is my kung fu brother and good freind he won his division in UFC 6 in

From a poster questioning such a claim



Posted in 2002
01-08-2002, 01:54 PM
Earth Dragon previously mentioned that an 8-step Mantis stylist won UFC 6 and 7 (I can't find the messages where this was mentioned because the forum search engine has been set up incorrectly and won't index 3 letter words... like "UFC" "won" "VII", etc.).

Anyway, I was looking to get videos of this and it is true that Joel Sutton won two fights, but he didn't win the competition in general. UFC 6 was won by Taktarov (see: http://members.aol.com/WSandT/cards/usa/nhb/ufctny.html#vi) and UFC 7 by Ruas.

Also, after UFC 7, Sutton lost his next three fights (at Pancrase - Alive 5, IFC 6 - Battle at Four Bears, and WVC 6 - World Vale Tudo Championship 6) and then apparently stopped fighting. See: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=107

So what does this mean if anything for 8-step Mantis?

Also, does anyone have the videos of UFC 6 and 7 and can they tell me whether Sutton's fights appear on them?

Another poster questioning your use of phrasing back in the day


Originally Posted by EarthDragon
taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won........ it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our websitewww.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.

Sorry... just watched UFC # 7... the winner was NOT Joel Sutton... Sutton was one of the alternates for that fight, but the fight was won by Ruas... and the final match in UFC # 7 was between Varlenz & Ruas... the fight was in 1995...

Don't doubt Sutton might have won a UFC match, but it wasn't # 7....


FG

Any finally the post that got you called on being a liar


E
arthDragon
Shifu Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2,597

hardwork ,
just consider the source and when they post you will first find it amusing .. then pathetic ...

I had a MMA guy tell me he could beat me up because there was no ground fighting in kung fu...... when I told him I teach 8 step and we have 360 ground techniuqes and my kung fu brother joel sutton won UFC 6 & 7 using mantis he shut up...



So you are either very bad in your choice of words or are trying to mislead people by both implying joel won the UFC as an alternate in one post (he simply won his alternate match) or are down right misleading people as above when you stated he won ufc 6 and 7

You are also either trying to mislead or are using really poor phrasing when on the on the one hand claim you were simply a sparring partner , and on the other several years later suddenly claim you trained him for the UFC,.... which is it exactly???? Because if thats define training guys for the UFC as simply being sparring partners for them then then i have trained 5 guys who have been on the main card in the UFC: 1 for a championship match so beat that.:)

My question to you is who have you and only you trained who has competed in the UFC...and who have you trained since 1995 who has done anything in professional MMA? :)

[Frost]

It takes a special kind of person to belittle anyone who has fought in the UFC; unless they are willing to share their similar experience.

who is belittling anyone who actually fought in the UFC? I have several good friends who have fought in the organisation and i know first hand how hard they train to get there, im simply calling bull on earth dragon for saying he trained the guy, when before he has repeatedly said he was his training partner and his master did the training for the ufc

And if you are going to use his fight record as a pointer to how effective your art is, then you should list his full fight record, and admit he has lost more than he has won, that is simply being truthful

[RenDaHai]

You guys who think a lack of TCMA winners in UFC doesn't mean it's not effective for fighting, I want to understand where you're coming from.


Look, TCMA is clearly NOT as effective as MMA in the scenario of a Ring. We could argue a lot of the same techniques are in TCMA too, and of course they are, but not isolated not a package like MMA. But why are you obsessed with this ring scenario? Why does Kung Fu have to be good at this to be valid?

Two types of violence. Territorial and predatory. Territorial is like a ring, but it is avoidable, and kung fu tenants suggest you avoid it. Predatory is unavoidable and unfair. It is nothing like a ring. I have tried to describe why but it seems hard for people to get.

Two men argue. One man attacks another. He beats him bloody. He heals in time. The attacker is taken to prison for 6 months but the shadow of that sentence holds back opportunities for the rest of his life. Who won the fight? The world is more complex than a ring and all actions have consequences.

I can't fault the JiuJitsu side of MMA, thats great. It gives you the ability to subdue an opponent without even hurting him and that is perfect MA. It is not always advisable to do it, but when it is, it is good. But thats a traditional MA.



The perfect MA is to defeat someone without hurting them. Let that be your measuring stick for martial arts.

[RenDaHai]

Can you guys answer me some questions;

In a Ring both people WANT to fight. In my experience overwhelmingly this is not the case outside of the ring. One guy does NOT WANT to fight, what MA should he use? Why?

We all know how you win a ring fight. But how do you 'Win' a fight outside of the ring?
(this question has no right or wrong answer but it sheds light on ones psyche)

[EarthDragon]

Frost


So you are either very bad in your choice of words or are trying to mislead people by both implying joel won the UFC as an alternate in one post (he simply won his alternate match) or are down right misleading people as above when you stated he won ufc 6 and 7

Joel entered into the UFC as a alternate bout I have said this all along he won his bout therefore anyone can say he won UFC 6 and & 7 in his category not the main event mind you as I have already explained HIS bout what part of this after 3 years do you find confusing?


You are also either trying to mislead or are using really poor phrasing when on the on the one hand claim you were simply a sparring partner , and on the other several years later suddenly claim you trained him for the UFC,.... which is it exactly???? Because if thats define training guys for the UFC as simply being sparring partners for them then then i have trained 5 guys who have been on the main card in the UFC: 1 for a championship match so beat that.

Joel was originally my student in the 90's we trained together and were good friends however I was a shifu and he was not he wa just my student. He trained under for for like 2 and half almost 3 years then decided to fight professionally and I suggested that when he move to SF to train directly under my shrfu James shyun.,not 4 months Later I also moved out to SF, my shrfu wanted him to train under many people like Kueng lek whom he sparred with and several other people and styles so yes at that time would I consider myself his training/drilling partner YES so did 5 other guys as well as his mentor and friend you can have several roles in a persons life as you say you have TCMA understanding you man know once he trained under my teacher he then became ranked a shrfu hence my kung fu brother.
I love the fact you are still on my jock after 3 years to prove your point, perhaps you could devote this much time to your training. I feel like you stalk me out here remember I had to block you and contact admin for your stalkingly posts? lets move on shall we, although I enjoy the attention I must have really struck a nerve with you for you to obsess over me for the last 3 years over the same thing LOl.


My question to you is who have you and only you trained who has competed in the UFC...and who have you trained since 1995 who has done anything in professional MMA?

No I have not had any students whom wanted to fight professionally since Joel however you know a fighter cannot be trained by just 1 person so your question doesnt make sense? as you may or may not know training fighters doesnt pay the bills. I still judge I am on the board of directors for NYS via the UFC. I am lobbing to bring it back to my new york but Dana has a 1300 page lawsuit again the state so might never happen. I only judge and promote MMA through TNT fight series. local amature fights that I do every 3 months.

[Frost]

Frost



Joel entered into the UFC as a alternate bout I have said this all along he won his bout therefore anyone can say he won UFC 6 and & 7 in his category not the main event mind you as I have already explained HIS bout what part of this after 3 years do you find confusing?



Joel was originally my student in the 90's we trained together and were good friends however I was a shifu and he was not he wa just my student. He trained under for for 3 years then decided to fight professionally and I suggested that when he move to SF to train directly under my shrfu James shyun.,not 4 months Later I also moved out to SF, my shrfu wanted him to train under many people like Kueng lek whom he sparred with and several other people and styles so yes at that time would I consider myself his training/drilling partner YES so did 5 other guys as well as his mentor and friend you can have several roles in a persons life as you say you have TCMA understanding you man know once he trained under my teacher he then became ranked a shrfu hence my kung fu brother.
I love the fact you are still on my jock after 3 years to prove your point, perhaps you could devote this much time to your training. I feel like you stalk me out here remember I had to block you and contact admin for your stalkingly posts? lets move on shall we, although I enjoy the attention I must have really struck a nerve with you for you to obsess over me for the last 3 years over the same thing LOl.



No I have not had any students whom wanted to fight professionally since Joel however you know a fighter cannot be trained by just 1 person so your question doesnt make sense? as you may or may not know training fighters doesnt pay the bills. I still judge I am on the board of directors for NYS via the UFC. I am lobbing to bring it back to my new york but Dana has a 1300 page lawsuit again the state so might never happen. I only judge and promote MMA through TNT fight series. local ammture fights that I do every 3 months.

stalking you....you mentioned me by name thats why i came on this thread

three years ago all i did, and all knifefighter did was call you on your lies, see the quote i posted where you said joel won ufc 6 and 7, its your own words i didnt type it you did and you got called on it, by the looks of it you got called on it back in 2001 and 2002 by other people did you block them as well lol

So you didnt train him for the UFC your sifu did, you and others were his sparring partners and since him you havent helped trained a single pro MMA fighter....thanks for clearing that up

[Kellen Bassette]

who is belittling anyone who actually fought in the UFC? I have several good friends who have fought in the organisation and i know first hand how hard they train to get there, im simply calling bull on earth dragon for saying he trained the guy, when before he has repeatedly said he was his training partner and his master did the training for the ufc

And if you are going to use his fight record as a pointer to how effective your art is, then you should list his full fight record, and admit he has lost more than he has won, that is simply being truthful

That wasn't directed at you Frost.

[EarthDragon]

So you didnt train him for the UFC your sifu did, you and others were his sparring partners and since him you havent helped trained a single pro MMA fighter....thanks for clearing that up

wow are you that ignorant? or you just want to be right? either way you who you are and after all that explaining and you still don't get it lol again your reading comprehension must be different in the UK. do me a favor block me as I will do you, you mean nothing to me and quite frankly a waste of my time........... have a wonderful life none the less.

[Frost]

That wasn't directed at you Frost.

apologies !!:):)

[Frost]

wow are you that ignorant? or you just want to be right? either way you who you are and after all that explaining and you still don't get it lol again your reading comprehension must be different in the UK. do me a favor block me as I will do you, you mean nothing to me and quite frankly a waste of my time........... have a wonderful life none the less.

so thats a no then :)

[EarthDragon]

rendahi



In a Ring both people WANT to fight. In my experience overwhelmingly this is not the case outside of the ring. One guy does NOT WANT to fight, what MA should he use? Why?

the street is obviously completely different. most fights are alcohol related which means your downtown dressed up looking good maybe with GF or wife friends etc etc for what reason would you want to roll on the ground instead of just block counter subdue and walk away? most fights are ego based. you can generally win them with talking or with confidence in the way you carry yourself. so talking would be the first MA then simply self defense.



We all know how you win a ring fight. But how do you 'Win' a fight outside of the ring?
(this question has no right or wrong answer but it sheds light on ones psyche)

by not fighting nor harming others and knowing you dont have to prove your ego to anyone.

years ago I got into argument with a guy over nothing at a bar he followed me outside and kept talking smack, I ignored him and walked to my car then he called my wife a really bad name I said you can apologize for that, she has nothing to do with it. I turned he swung, I grabbed his wrist turned my body weight and did an elbow break tech without thinking what I was doing. I heard a crack then saw blood all over my 250.00 silk shirt. compound fracture which broke the skin , well the cops were siting int he parking lot saw it arrested me for aggravated assault I had a law suit paid his medical bills and went to court 4 over 10 months, missed work... the moral to the story............. is it ever worth it?t

[IronFist]

Imagine that, TCMA people hiding behind vague ambiguities and double speak when asked to clearly present facts.

[IronFist]

Can you guys answer me some questions;

In a Ring both people WANT to fight. In my experience overwhelmingly this is not the case outside of the ring. One guy does NOT WANT to fight, what MA should he use? Why?

We all know how you win a ring fight. But how do you 'Win' a fight outside of the ring?
(this question has no right or wrong answer but it sheds light on ones psyche)

Now that is a good point.

Winning a fight outside the ring probably relies on using techniques that are effective against a resisting opponent.

[MightyB]

Criminy People

This and even the "traditional" variations of it
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pP-4MEBew_M/TKEM3DjGg2I/AAAAAAAAAAc/mbbOFGb8zOk/s1600/wushu.jpg

Will NEVER work here
http://www.mma-core.com/images/fighters/full/Fedor_Emelianenko_1000348.jpg

[SoCo KungFu]

What difference does it make at this point? Even if instructor X trained fighter Y and that guy won the title, MMA and UFC in particular is totally different now than in 2000. Different skill sets, much higher level of athleticism, etc. The champs from those days would be competitive still, but the average fighters then were nothing compared to now days. And average fighter in 2013 would be a match for past champs if for nothing else, sheer athleticism (and better medicinal "enhancement"). So what's the point? This argument serves no purpose from either side really.

As to the rest, if you can't win in a ring then how will you win on the street? I don't care about random drunk ***hole. If that's what you're training for, why bother. Those are easy to avoid, talk down, or easy to beat really. I care about the ***hole that has skills like he should be a pro fighter. As for what art is the best, how about the one that lets you go home safe and sound? Beyond that, its fuk all.

To many people are trying to talk and hypothesize about what is best. Just go fn put on some gloves and go at it and you'll find out real fast what works for you. THAT'S the problem with TCMA. Too much freggin talking.

Here's the deal, TCMA ground fighting (in whatever or wherever form someone tries to justify its existence) simply isn't good enough. Not in a society that has such a huge cultural investment in wrestling and things like BJJ growing rapidly. This is just basic ecology. In stable environments, specialization grants a competitive advantage for that niche (ie. ground). The rest, kung fu can be effective IF people would shut up and just train right. If your kung fu school has beaten the trend and can actually attract people that want to learn to fight (for self defense, comp, whatever the reason) then you'll have an environment conducive to that end. The rest is on you to meet those goals with instruction. But if all you have is a couple guys and some timid girls that have little fighting ability (and more importantly, little desire to gain that ability), well then those 1 or 2 people that want to fight are going to leave and rightly so. You can't meet their goals because you haven't created an environment suitable to do so.

Unless you have a huge population of students, you simply can't have a one size fits all mentality. Trying to argue that TCMA (or any TMA) is going to provide that is simply denying the obvious.

[MightyB]

Can you guys answer me some questions;

In a Ring both people WANT to fight. In my experience overwhelmingly this is not the case outside of the ring. One guy does NOT WANT to fight, what MA should he use? Why?

We all know how you win a ring fight. But how do you 'Win' a fight outside of the ring?
(this question has no right or wrong answer but it sheds light on ones psyche)

Finally some common sense in this thread.

[IronFist]

Proper training against resisting opponents will also help you learn what techniques work.

Much of the stuff you learn in TMA (notice I didn't say specifically TCMA) doesn't work, but the only way to learn this is to train against resisting opponents.

It all works great when your training partner leaves his arm extended after a punch that wasn't even going to hit you anyway.

[MightyB]

But if all you have is a couple guys and some timid girls that have little fighting ability (and more importantly, little desire to gain that ability), well then those 1 or 2 people that want to fight are going to leave and rightly so. You can't meet their goals because you haven't created an environment suitable to do so.

Unless you have a huge population of students, you simply can't have a one size fits all mentality. Trying to argue that TCMA (or any TMA) is going to provide that is simply denying the obvious.

OMG so much is right in your post!

It's not just TCMA that this applies to. We say it in our Judo clubs all the time. If the people there don't want to compete and you do, then you have to leave and go somewhere where they want to compete - otherwise you're just wasting time.

To be competitive, you need to be where the competitive people are. I learned this the hard way. No matter how much you desire to fight, without good sparring partners who want it just as bad as you - you get killed in a match. You can't get ready by yourself. for you Sifus - If you want a good fighting school, create a good fighting environment. Pure and simple.

[MightyB]

I hate to say this but,

You have to be careful because - Kids will ruin a fighting school.


It's a dangerous thing to allow children if you want to have a fighting school. Once children are allowed, you walk a dangerous path if you want to retain fighting.

Just saying.

[SoCo KungFu]

OMG so much is right in your post!

It's not just TCMA that this applies to. We say it in our Judo clubs all the time. If the people there don't want to compete and you do, then you have to leave and go somewhere where they want to compete - otherwise you're just wasting time.

To be competitive, you need to be where the competitive people are. I learned this the hard way. No matter how much you desire to fight, without good sparring partners who want it just as bad as you - you get killed in a match. You can't get ready by yourself. for you Sifus - If you want a good fighting school, create a good fighting environment. Pure and simple.

Exactly. But this isn't just about competition. If you want to learn to really defend yourself, you have to be training against people that could really hurt you.

[MightyB]

Exactly. But this isn't just about competition. If you want to learn to really defend yourself, you have to be training against people that could really hurt you.

so true.

If I go to a club that has Mary Menopause and Freddie Fatgut mixed into it's only "SD" program and doesn't have a separated hardcore only class - I'll participate, but I don't take it seriously. I more or less humor the people and rarely comeback.

I leave immediately if kids are integrated into the adults class. Why waste the time? The school's obviously not serious.

[MightyB]

I rarely compete, but I work out with the hardcore guys who do regularly fight in local/regional MMA and NAGA events.

Here's the benefits to doing hardcore training even if you don't compete.

You'll get in the best shape of your life
You can vent your frustrations on people who can handle it
You'll learn a better quality of martial art.

[RenDaHai]

Winning a fight outside the ring probably relies on using techniques that are effective against a resisting opponent.

See, I'd say it probably relies on resisting the opponents effective techniques.

[RenDaHai]

This and even the "traditional" variations of it
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pP-4MEBew_M/TKEM3DjGg2I/AAAAAAAAAAc/mbbOFGb8zOk/s1600/wushu.jpg

Will NEVER work here


I get ya, I'm not gonna argue for it. But just an aside, quite recently when I was visiting the states I went to a local mma gym to do a wrestling class and went against this highschool wrestler kid. He was good, that was his game. I feinted high then went for an ankle pick and almost got it but he jumped back into this stance (toes up) completely ruined what I was gonna do and out of range for anything else. I thought it was quite cool though, he'd clearly done it before.

[MightyB]

I get ya, I'm not gonna argue for it. But just an aside, quite recently when I was visiting the states I went to a local mma gym to do a wrestling class and went against this highschool wrestler kid. He was good, that was his game. I feinted high then went for an ankle pick and almost got it but he jumped back into this stance (toes up) completely ruined what I was gonna do and out of range for anything else. I thought it was quite cool though, he'd clearly done it before.

I don't want to belittle TCMA, I just ask that people give it a fair shake in that it's meant for something specific and don't ask it to do something it wasn't intended to do martial arts wise.

TCMA has a lot of strengths and the training is beneficial. Just be realistic. It's not MMA in a modern context and it will never be, but that's ok because it's its own thing. I'd like to see us push weapons training and combat more. It's a competitive advantage.

[Bernard]

Criminy People

This and even the "traditional" variations of it
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pP-4MEBew_M/TKEM3DjGg2I/AAAAAAAAAAc/mbbOFGb8zOk/s1600/wushu.jpg

Will NEVER work here
http://www.mma-core.com/images/fighters/full/Fedor_Emelianenko_1000348.jpg

Whaddaya mean?!? Dude's got a sword!! :D

[RenDaHai]

I don't want to belittle TCMA, I just ask that people give it a fair shake in that it's meant for something specific and don't ask it to do something it wasn't intended to do martial arts wise.

TCMA has a lot of strengths and the training is beneficial. Just be realistic. It's not MMA in a modern context and it will never be, but that's ok because it's its own thing. I'd like to see us push weapons training and combat more. It's a competitive advantage.

I'd love to see a weapons fighting league. But not just sword against sword, stick against stick. Kinda choose your weapon so you can fight sword vs. stick or spear etc.

The problem is the rules, the scoring the armour the weapons material.....

I think it would be awesome though and I think a lot of people would be interested if you could get it all worked out.

[jimbob]

To many people are trying to talk and hypothesize about what is best. Just go fn put on some gloves and go at it and you'll find out real fast what works for you. THAT'S the problem with TCMA. Too much freggin talking.

.

Indeed. I have a hard time imaging a(n) MMA/Sanda/Judo or Boxing forum where pages have been devoted to discussing and analysing what works and what doesn't.

[Lucas]

Modern wushu is not a Chinese combat art. If people want to see tcma in a modern sport fight environment, you need to watch some Chinese mma that have fighters using cma. Its not hard to find, there is this thing called Google......

[jdhowland]

Now that being said, a lot of TCMA training involves leaving punches extended so your training partner can do 10 hit combos on you. That will never happen against a resisting opponent. But in the above scenario, the dude had his arm extended, just sitting out there. He wasn't throwing a punch.
.

Whaaat? Not doubting what you've seen, just wondering about the schools. I have never seen tcma train this way. I have seen it in kenpo, karatedo, kajukenbo and its variants, but never in Chinese fighting arts.

[bawang]

Whaaat? Not doubting what you've seen, just wondering about the schools. I have never seen tcma train this way. I have seen it in kenpo, karatedo, kajukenbo and its variants, but never in Chinese fighting arts.

its more common in small towns because a lot of those tcma guys are originally karate guys.

[Jimbo]

Whaaat? Not doubting what you've seen, just wondering about the schools. I have never seen tcma train this way. I have seen it in kenpo, karatedo, kajukenbo and its variants, but never in Chinese fighting arts.

I have to agree. I've personally seen this done in kenpo, kajukenbo, and even tang soo do, but never in any type of CMA.

[YouKnowWho]

Just be realistic.

I just had a 2 hours private lesson with one of my guys this morning. We did 120 "comb hair" drills against jab and cross combo. We then work on how to move in and take opponent down from for both uniform stance and mirror stance.

He told me that he is going to try technique A and technique B in MMA gym this week. I think that's the right attitude. Every week if you just test 2 of your moves, you will soon develop confidence and you will start to accumulate your experience from there.

[EarthDragon]

ironfist


Proper training against resisting opponents will also help you learn what techniques work.

Much of the stuff you learn in TMA (notice I didn't say specifically TCMA) doesn't work, but the only way to learn this is to train against resisting opponents.

It all works great when your training partner leaves his arm extended after a punch that wasn't even going to hit you anyway.

what for instance in TMA doesnt work? you gotta make it work . does an arm bar or kimura work??? yes you make it work.

sedondly who trains their art without resisting opponents? how else do you do application? are you saying that TMA doesnt and MMA does? dont you think this is a sweeping assumption?

[IronFist]

ironfist



what for instance in TMA doesnt work?

What in TMA doesn't work against resisting opponents?

http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/images/karate-block.jpg

Here's a good article that that pic is from:
http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/martial-arts-dont-work

Almost all Aikido nonsense.

Most slappy hands Wing Chun stuff (I say this as someone who has studied and still likes Wing Chun).

http://www.wingtsunusa.com/media/B278P.jpg

Just about any block that reaches for the attack.

http://www.chrisnicholson.dsl.pipex.com/karate20.jpg


you gotta make it work .

TMA is made up of low percentage moves. They might work sometimes. Sometimes spinning back fists or jumping back kicks have been used successfully in MMA. That doesn't mean they're effective moves.


does an arm bar or kimura work??? yes you make it work.

There is ample evidence that both of those moves work against resisting opponents. Of course you have to make them work.

Sometimes it is appropriate for an arm bar. Sometimes it is appropriate for a kimura. Sometime it is appropriate for a boxing jab. Sometimes it is appropriate for a Muay Thai round kick.

It's pretty much never appropriate for a duck block reverse punch.

http://www.olympictaekwondo.org/pal-jang/6.jpg

"BUT THEY'RE JUST DOING THEM THAT WAY FOR TRAINING!"

If so, that's a horribly inefficient use of training. Not only are you wasting your time, but you're also developing neural pathways that you'll never use in a real fight. So if anything it's making you a worse fighter.

You are completely wasting your time if you train things you will never actually do against a resisting opponent.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gwiXbQ4HapM/S5pyltGsFII/AAAAAAAABSE/JbWDxUM7e1w/s400/karate+block.jpg

The point is that many TMA moves are impossible to "make work" against a resisting opponent. That's why fighting looks more like UFC than TMA.

If you want to be an effective fighter, you need to work from a collection of high percentage moves that are known to work.


sedondly who trains their art without resisting opponents? how else do you do application? are you saying that TMA doesnt and MMA does? dont you think this is a sweeping assumption?

Most TMA schools don't.

Most MMA schools do.

Yes, I am saying that.

Now here is where everyone jumps in and says "I don't know what you're talking about. My TCMA school is all combat. We train against resisting opponents. We have champion NHB fighters who use TCMA techniques etc."

[IronFist]

See, I'd say it probably relies on resisting the opponents effective techniques.

That's really the same thing I said.

The techniques you use to resist need to be effective on a resisting opponent.

[EarthDragon]

Iron
I see your point, yes you can pick apart styles and their weaknesses and yes maybe some techniques are hard if not impossible to pull off however you can say TMA or TCMA doenst work based on a few techniques.

ALL TCMA and TJMA teach you to block, punch, kick this is MA.

however the pics you post are static postures made to show the technique for training purposes you dont just stand there flat footed and move one hand I hope you know that, the body moves as one you square up in fighting stance not the way the static pics show.

1st pic is a simple redirection this is used in all MA moving redirecting an on coming attack,

2nd pic is to sell magazines

3rd pic again redirection though I dont know who trows a punch then a kick without first securing the ground
but I can post pics of the internet that make MMA look unrealistic I don't think the pics are proving your point.
I can post hundreds of TMCA pics that show real life application.

[RenDaHai]

That's really the same thing I said.

The techniques you use to resist need to be effective on a resisting opponent.

Kinda, they need to be effective against an aggressive opponent. You need him to be relentless in his goal of hurting you, cause thats how stuff tends to go down.

Dude, most of the pictures above aren't Kung Fu.

[bawang]

TMA is made up of low percentage moves. They might work sometimes. Sometimes spinning back fists or jumping back kicks have been used successfully in MMA. That doesn't mean they're effective moves.




kung fu was revived to make money.

kung fu was revived to make money.

kung fu became popular because of movies. people didnt become interested in kung fu to fight. they were hypnotized by a fantasy, by the imagery of the movies. so its not unusual for tma to teach unrealistic moves. this is what people ultimately want.

america is the land of opportunity. people try to find supply and demand.

if you want to chase that elusive feeling you saw from the movies, its gonna be a tough journey.

[mawali]

I am just the MA dunce but I see the same punch/kick scenario is Karata, TKD, etc, in other arts that go beyond those scenarios:

In the silat suffian link, the straight line punch is evident with kick but it is used far more 'cleverly; without any qi tricks and stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB4W9pQBvyE

[Kellen Bassette]

apologies !!:):)

Unnecessary :)

[Kellen Bassette]

I hate to say this but,

You have to be careful because - Kids will ruin a fighting school.


It's a dangerous thing to allow children if you want to have a fighting school. Once children are allowed, you walk a dangerous path if you want to retain fighting.

Just saying.

Yes...yes..yes..if you teach kids you have to keep it separate...you can't train children properly for fighting in the modern west. If you have kids in the class with adults, you can forget about the fighting aspect.

I actually see some local MMA schools advertising and gearing towards kids. I wonder how they resolve this conflict of interest.

[Kellen Bassette]

Proper training against resisting opponents will also help you learn what techniques work.

Much of the stuff you learn in TMA (notice I didn't say specifically TCMA) doesn't work, but the only way to learn this is to train against resisting opponents.

It all works great when your training partner leaves his arm extended after a punch that wasn't even going to hit you anyway.

This is all true. It's a major complaint I have with many TMA schools. Not so much that they engage in this training, but when they forgo the better traditional methods for this kind of stuff.

[bawang]

This is all true. It's a major complaint I have with many TMA schools. Not so much that they engage in this training, but when they forgo the better traditional methods for this kind of stuff.

as long as tma is a money making business, it will always be like this.

[Kellen Bassette]

Holding static stances and doing poses is not effective for fighting. But again, here is where some can't distinguish form and application...and yes you have to train application, (conditioning and testing on resisting opponents) for it to be effective.
Your supposed to do both traditionally...many only do the poses now, but many also train the martial aspect.

I think it was you that posted the fighter in the boxing/mma style fighting stance. This is traditional. It's the same thing as Gung Bu. Gung Bu is just an exaggeration to train the leg muscles and rooting. It's understood you don't stand in Gung Bu and fight. And yes, you need to train it in the fighting version as well.

Even so Gung Bu, in the large frame, is constantly used in fighting. It's the end of a technique. The split second where you connect when moving in for a strike, before recovering to a fighting stance, or continuing your attack.

And your right that you can't just stand in Gung Bu and fight like that. You can't just train like that. But in the TMAs I've trained, Chinese and otherwise, that was always understood; and the natural fighting stance was always used.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.asylum.com/media/2009/07/ufc-100-punch.jpg

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4631504612753842&pid=15.1

[YouKnowWho]

What I like about TCMA is it's detail training method.

After you have "developed" your leg lift throw from partner drills,

http://imageshack.us/a/img831/4315/linleglift.jpg

you can use solo drill to "polish" it.

http://imageshack.us/a/img835/4435/leglift1.jpg

and weight equipment to "enhance" it.

http://imageshack.us/a/img718/1716/singleheadleglift.jpg

[LaRoux]

It's the same thing as Gung Bu. Gung Bu is just an exaggeration to train the leg muscles and rooting. It's understood you don't stand in Gung Bu and fight. And yes, you need to train it in the fighting version as well.

Even so Gung Bu, in the large frame, is constantly used in fighting. It's the end of a technique. The split second where you connect when moving in for a strike, before recovering to a fighting stance, or continuing your attack.

Holding Gung Bu for in exaggerated postures or for extended amounts of time is what makes it one of those inefficient techniques that Ironfist was talking about.

[LaRoux]

In the silat suffian link, the straight line punch is evident with kick but it is used far more 'cleverly; without any qi tricks and stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB4W9pQBvyE

Same old stuff that doesn't work against someone not letting you do it.

[Kellen Bassette]

Holding Gung Bu for in exaggerated postures or for extended amounts of time is what makes it one of those inefficient techniques that Ironfist was talking about.

Well it's not going to do you much good if that's the only thing your working on. I happen to feel it has value because it's great for building leg strength. Of course there are many means to that same end. You can do that traditional exercise, or a myriad of other exercises.

My main point is, things have to be taken in context. You don't see a boxer hitting a speed bag and say "that's ridiculous, who punches like that?" Now if you think certain training methods are inefficient or pointless, that's one thing...but it seems like a lot of the detractors, having any kind of MAs background at all, should know better and just go out of their way to take things out of context.

[EarthDragon]

Originally Posted by mawali View Post

In the silat suffian link, the straight line punch is evident with kick but it is used far more 'cleverly; without any qi tricks and stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB4W9pQBvyE


laroux



Same old stuff that doesn't work against someone not letting you do it.

Are you saying that as straight punch and front kick doesn't work ? LOL

[MightyB]

Holding Gung Bu for in exaggerated postures or for extended amounts of time is what makes it one of those inefficient techniques that Ironfist was talking about.

Depends. I used to wonder how my Sifu was able to relax his hips and waist so much to be able to yield against close quarter shots and to deliver hard shots from such a close distance. It's all in the leg strength. He's always telling us to relax, relax the hips - like I said I couldn't figure it out for years, then it occurred to me that we, as students, didn't have the leg strength to keep a low stance and relax in the hips.

[MightyB]

even wrestling does static leg strength training.
http://www.crossfittroy.com/images/2008/09/05/last_man_standing.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

2013 people, 2000 and freaking 13 !!!

And this is still being debated ?!?!?!

:mad:

[EarthDragon]

Sanjuro,
I say again its the MMA guys who want to justify their art superior over everything else because they feel its the new bandwagon.

This is as silly as having a gun and trying to prive I have a better weapon to aguy holding a knife. If I know I have something better I need not argue to prove it.

Therefore these MMA are still insecure about their justifications otherwise this dead horse would have been glue by now.

[Frost]

even wrestling does static leg strength training.
http://www.crossfittroy.com/images/2008/09/05/last_man_standing.jpg

thats done as a mental toughness exercise not for leg strength

[IronFist]

Dude, most of the pictures above aren't Kung Fu.

I know. The question was "what for instance in TMA doesn't work?"

So I used examples from many TMAs, including TJMA, TCMA, and TKMA.

[bawang]

2013 people, 2000 and freaking 13 !!!

And this is still being debated ?!?!?!

:mad:

people havent changed. people are still giving empty lip service to "realistic training".

the traditional people still dont fight, the mma converts still feel empty inside.

[YouKnowWho]

Holding Gung Bu for in exaggerated postures or for extended amounts of time is what makes it one of those inefficient techniques that Ironfist was talking about.
We can't just look at Gung Bu from a "striker" point of view. We will need to look at it from a "grappler" point of view as well.

Holding Gung Bu for in exaggerated postures or for extended amounts of time is exactly what make the TCMA so great about.

I just can't say enough about how imporatnt the bow-arrow stance is (besides horse stance and golden rooster stance) in TCMA, without a solid fundation in this stance, not only you won't have solid rooting after your throw, you won't be able to execute an effective "cracking" or "pulling" throw that requires to spin your body into a low bow-arrow stance.

If you start from this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img808/7436/cracking1.jpg

and end with this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img860/580/oldpic211.jpg

Your opponent will be on the ground.

It can also be used to counter so many throws. If you don't know how to counter a throw, you will try the bow-arrow stance first. Most of the time, it will work. For example, if your opponent uses "front cut (Osoto Gari)" on you,

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

you can turn your body to your right and end with a solid low bow-arrow stance, not only your opponent's "front cut" won't be able to throw you, you may just put him in a very bad position.

[YouKnowWho]

In yesterday class, one of my guys made a comment, "I finally understand how important the basic stances training is". His father was a wrestling coach. He had 15 years wrestling experience. He told me that in wrestling, he had never trained any stances seriously. When I showed him the "spring", he then realize that if he can end with a perfect low bow-arrow stance with perfect body twisting, his opponent will be down with the face to hit on the ground first.

The stance training is the strong point of the TCMA. Without it, TCMA will be like fast food and lost it true flavor.

Ancient Chinese drew this picture was not for "health", "performance", or "self-cultivation". The requirement is so serious that your head, body, and back leg should be in a perfect straight line. Your body should also be twisted to the maximum.

http://imageshack.us/a/img573/7109/necksurrounding.jpg

[Robinhood]

Same old stuff that doesn't work against someone not letting you do it.

Those guys are just trying to make money off people that don't know any better, they are being brain washed to think that practicing those moves over and over will give them the ability to apply them. The teacher either believes what he is saying and never tries to apply against resisting moving people or is he is just a dishonest person conning people to get their money.

People can do things like that , but training like that will not get you there.

[RenDaHai]

Not directed at anyone;

In Kung Fu desperately trying to attack someone who's guard is up is called 'Cuo Wu'.

Fighters want techniques that attack and create openings most successfully. But, in my experience, unless your the bad guy, you want techniques that react most successfully as opposed to those which initiate.

It comes back to a Ring Fight being between two people who WANT to fight each other and most real fights having at least one guy who does NOT WANT to fight.

For a guy who does not want to fight, is attacking even an option psychologically? Surely people can accept that in these two different situations, its not always going to be the same techniques and strategies which are the best.

In which case, this entire argument is pointless. For lots of other reasons too.

also, Boobies.

[IronFist]

And your right that you can't just stand in Gung Bu and fight like that. You can't just train like that. But in the TMAs I've trained, Chinese and otherwise, that was always understood; and the natural fighting stance was always used.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.asylum.com/media/2009/07/ufc-100-punch.jpg



That kinda looks like a bow and arrow stance or whatever, but that guy is in motion. There isn't much that carries over from bow and arrow stance training into what that guy is doing.

It's more of a coincidence than anything else.


Holding Gung Bu for in exaggerated postures or for extended amounts of time is what makes it one of those inefficient techniques that Ironfist was talking about.

This.

I have written at length before about why holding a stance for beyond about two minutes does not have any benefit other than:

1) mental toughness (no one can deny stance training is hard)

2) developing the endurance to hold that stance for longer periods of time

However beyond the first minute or two, you no longer develop strength. It's not increasing your maximal force output (ie. ability to kick harder). It's simply increasing your muscular endurance at a single angle (+/- 20 degrees or so).

If you have a use for that then stance training can be helpful.

[IronFist]

Those guys are just trying to make money off people that don't know any better, they are being brain washed to think that practicing those moves over and over will give them the ability to apply them. The teacher either believes what he is saying and never tries to apply against resisting moving people or is he is just a dishonest person conning people to get their money.

People can do things like that , but training like that will not get you there.

Agreed.

It's awesome as long as the guy comes at you with a straight punch which he leaves extended, doesn't follow up with a second punch, and leaves his other hand on his hip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4W8sEFxee8

[Tainan Mantis]

Kung fu stick, my student and I

Two Person Shaolin 18 Movement Stick 少林十八棍對練 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIV7demp8_c&feature=youtu.be)

Article on this form

Shaolin Eighteen Movement Stick (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/pre%2009/2006/Shaolin%2018%20Stick.htm)

[-N-]

Yes...yes..yes..if you teach kids you have to keep it separate...you can't train children properly for fighting in the modern west. If you have kids in the class with adults, you can forget about the fighting aspect.

I actually see some local MMA schools advertising and gearing towards kids. I wonder how they resolve this conflict of interest.

Just don't water it down with the kids. A lot of the adults joined my class after seeing the kids train. The adults trained right alongside with the kids.

The kids were the most physically and mentally adaptable and were better fighters than the adults.

[SoCo KungFu]

2013 people, 2000 and freaking 13 !!!

And this is still being debated ?!?!?!

:mad:

Of course. There are still people hypothesizing technique rather than at the very least, sparring. There are still people thinking their school is different than nearly every other school doing the same ineffective training. That's not meant to be a blanket, some are bucking the trend. But most aren't. (I have found 2 in SC that has, among those listed in searches that is.) I'd imagine most here are probably training ineffectively. Its not a bash, its simple statistical probability.

Now you know what its like studying science in the south. The day people stop trying to convince me that fossils are the trick of satan, then maybe the TCMA training debate will end as well. They're both bred from the same inability to acknowledge the unbelievably obvious.

[MightyB]

Kung fu stick, my student and I

Two Person Shaolin 18 Movement Stick 少林十八棍對練 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIV7demp8_c&feature=youtu.be)

Article on this form

Shaolin Eighteen Movement Stick (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/pre%2009/2006/Shaolin%2018%20Stick.htm)

This is what I'm talking about. Someone dressed in their MMA bad boy gear walks in and asks you to fight, throw him a guan and smack him upside the head with yours. He says "wait I meant get in my guard" laugh and smack him again and say "this is how we fight beyotch." :)

Weapons are TCMA's advantage, let's make it our thing.

[Syn7]

This is what I'm talking about. Someone dressed in their MMA bad boy gear walks in and asks you to fight, throw him a guan and smack him upside the head with yours. He says "wait I meant get in my guard" laugh and smack him again and say "this is how we fight beyotch." :)

Weapons are TCMA's advantage, let's make it our thing.

Revenge fantasy much? :confused:

[EarthDragon]

Ironfist


That kinda looks like a bow and arrow stance or whatever, but that guy is in motion. There isn't much that carries over from bow and arrow stance training into what that guy is doing.

It's more of a coincidence than anything else.


do you know what coincidence means/ LOL

its a mathematical term for when 2 lines meet perfectly meaning they are supposed to be perfectly together.

its hard to argue logic when the other person is unarmed

[Kellen Bassette]

thats done as a mental toughness exercise not for leg strength

One could say that about horse stance. What would make the wrestler's version superior?

[SoCo KungFu]

Ironfist



do you know what coincidence means/ LOL

its a mathematical term for when 2 lines meet perfectly meaning they are supposed to be perfectly together.

its hard to argue logic when the other person is unarmed

And since the days of at least Jefferson, its been used in a way to denote occurrences which seem to have connection but which similarities are only accidental. What's your point? He's referring to a structural characteristic pictured which appears to have properties of coinciding with a particular TMA training, but its seeming similarities are happenstance. His use is correct.

No one likes a grammar nazi.

When people are *****ing over diction, you know an argument has gotten stupid.

[SoCo KungFu]

One could say that about horse stance. What would make the wrestler's version superior?

Its not. He's implying that the training is not used for what TMA'ers typically use it for. Now practically every wrestler does other training for leg strength. And that is most definitely superior to training stance.

[LaRoux]

Originally Posted by mawali View Post

In the silat suffian link, the straight line punch is evident with kick but it is used far more 'cleverly; without any qi tricks and stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB4W9pQBvyE


laroux



Are you saying that as straight punch and front kick doesn't work ? LOL

I'm saying that the majority of the things shown on that clip don't work.

[LaRoux]

Well it's not going to do you much good if that's the only thing your working on. I happen to feel it has value because it's great for building leg strength. Of course there are many means to that same end. You can do that traditional exercise, or a myriad of other exercises.

My main point is, things have to be taken in context. You don't see a boxer hitting a speed bag and say "that's ridiculous, who punches like that?" Now if you think certain training methods are inefficient or pointless, that's one thing...but it seems like a lot of the detractors, having any kind of MAs background at all, should know better and just go out of their way to take things out of context.

Holding stances for extended amounts of time doesn't increase strength. There's a reason the strongest people in the world don't train that way and train completely the opposite.

[LaRoux]

In yesterday class, one of my guys made a comment, "I finally understand how important the basic stances training is". His father was a wrestling coach. He had 15 years wrestling experience. He told me that in wrestling, he had never trained any stances seriously. When I showed him the "spring", he then realize that if he can end with a perfect low bow-arrow stance with perfect body twisting, his opponent will be down with the face to hit on the ground first.

The stance training is the strong point of the TCMA. Without it, TCMA will be like fast food and lost it true flavor.

Ancient Chinese drew this picture was not for "health", "performance", or "self-cultivation". The requirement is so serious that your head, body, and back leg should be in a perfect straight line. Your body should also be twisted to the maximum.

http://imageshack.us/a/img573/7109/necksurrounding.jpg

There is also a reason that wrestlers who win gold medals in the Olympics don't do that kind of leg training.

[LaRoux]

Its not. He's implying that the training is not used for what TMA'ers typically use it for. Now practically every wrestler does other training for leg strength. And that is most definitely superior to training stance.


This times 1,000,000.

[MightyB]

Revenge fantasy much? :confused:

Nah - just stating the obvious. TCMA isn't MMA, why should it try to be? It has advantages in other areas - weapons being one that's underutilized IMO. Why? Because like other aspects, not enough drilling and live drilling using the more "practical" (using loosely) weapons such as sticks, knives, and yes swords (since a collapsible baton could be used as a substitute for a sword). Kevin's two-person drilling with a guan. That's the type of thing that should be done in a TCMA school.

You ever hear an eskrimador talking about using eskrima for cage fighting?