Wu Sau: Positioning, Reference and Gate Stratagy [Archive]

Vajramusti

01-21-2013, 05:56 PM

Recently, There was a mysteriously vanishing thread featuring an interview where, an idea of keeping wu sau off side as a neutral or default position was presented as standard to the course. Meaning, that the wu sau and possibly mun sau are typically on one side of the line...'drawing' or encouraging attackes to come in through available gates. Narrowing access and response. Giving one an advantage of 'drawing'. Is this standard VT???
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The question is not quite clear.

Lots of terms above can vary in meaning - depending on user and context-- such as

offside, neutral, drawing and standard VT.

FWIW IMO--wu saus are often used in man sau- but depending on context other motions when properly done can also be man sau- asking hands,
When you and your shadow are in squared up position wu is usually right at the center as in slt.
In attack it usually attacks the center line from different angles..when used defensively or as a back up for bong sao in lop sao it can appear superficially to be off center-but it always should protect your axis.

Happy Tiger

01-21-2013, 06:03 PM

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The question is not quite clear.

Lots of terms above can vary in meaning - depending on user and context-- such as

offside, neutral, drawing and standard VT.

FWIW IMO--wu saus are often used in man sau- but depending on context other motions when properly done can also be man sau- asking hands,
When you and your shadow are in squared up position wu is usually right at the center as in slt.
In attack it usually attacks the center line from different angles..when used defensively or as a back up for bong sao in lop sao it can appear superficially to be off center-but it always should protect your axis.
Wu Sau: Defending hand
Mun Sau: Asking hand
Off Side: Residing arbitrarily on one side or the other

Vajramusti

01-21-2013, 06:26 PM

Wu Sau: Defending hand
Mun Sau: Asking hand
Off Side: Residing arbitrarily on one side or the other
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Yes, I know what wu sao is in simple definition- but then there are details--the fingers, the bridge and the elbow.

Mun sai can also be a function-the asking.

Arbitrarily? No comprende!!

Happy Tiger

01-21-2013, 06:33 PM

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Yes, I know what wu sao is in simple definition- but then there are details--the fingers, the bridge and the elbow.

Mun sai can also be a function-the asking.

Arbitrarily? No comprende!!
I know you know... No details like that. The idea is ' from neutral position. reside one side so attackes come through the other one side...thus giving the 'feeder' the advantage. Didn't you see the video?

Vajramusti

01-21-2013, 06:42 PM

I know you know... No details like that. The idea is ' from neutral position. reside one side so attackes come through the other one side...thus giving the 'feeder' the advantage. Didn't you see the video?
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I guess that I did nit see the video that you are referring to-I just saw your post.
Yes as a driil you can sometimes deliberately appear to be off center, provided you are prepared
for what may come..

k gledhill

01-21-2013, 07:09 PM

The clips no longer worked and got re-edited into a longer single one....

Graham H

01-22-2013, 03:23 AM

When you and your shadow are in squared up position wu is usually right at the center as in slt.
In attack it usually attacks the center line from different angles..when used defensively or as a back up for bong sao in lop sao it can appear superficially to be off center-but it always should protect your axis.

Mmmmmmm:confused:

SLT is not a fighting form. Its an exercise and one dimensional. The whole form is abstract and made up of lots of elements to develop and improve the usage of the elbow fundamental to all VT actions. In SLT we do not pivot or step and Wu Sau is held on center so as not to confuse the student to early. We are not fighting anybody in SLT. Its for training only.
In Chum Kiu we do pivot and step so Wu Sau is not held on the centerline as it is in SLT any longer. It's a common problem that most VT systems have.
With Wu Sau held in the correct position we can protect our center, intercept a linear attack (to clear the way for the punch) and turn the opponent away in one action. With Wu Sau on center this is not possible and people will shift to the outside to make it work. If Wu Sau is correct we can also cut the opponents line of attack and the step actually goes inside......into punching distance so we do not usually have to make two steps.

Easily shown but hard to explain in text although it is easy to say that Wu Sau from SLT is not for fighting. In CK it is but there is a slight shift in thinking between the two forms.

LFJ

01-22-2013, 05:02 AM

Graham H

01-22-2013, 06:24 AM

If you stand in YJKYM with wu-sau right on the center as in SNT, then shift and throw up a bong-sau as in CK, your wu-sau shouldn't change position and is still on the central line between you and your opponent. Two things are identical between those two postures, your head and your wu-sau.

What's this about the SNT wu-sau not for fighting? Drawing a wu-sau in guides the incoming attack on the outside of your arm down and off to the side, with or without a shift, same action.

Sorry I don't agree. If you pivot your body is facing at an angle which means if you hold Wu Sau the same as in SLT it will also be facing in that direction. Wu Sau changes position because of this and is relative to your opponent.

I used to think the same way as you but my thinking has changed and it can be clearly seen and explained by somebody that has a that idea.

Wu Sau does not draw in an incoming attack. :eek:

That is another useless idea and method created by a lot of WC systems. Wu Sau in SLT is for position and training.

You can imagine my surprise when I had it explained differently after years and years and thinking I knew it all. I also used to think it was for drawing attacks etc etc etc. I later found out the error of my ways and came back down to Earth with a bang.

If somebody had said to me 6 years ago SLT was not for fighting I would have told them to f&&k off. Much like you will do now I expect :D

Graham H

01-22-2013, 06:31 AM

Better just to say we have different ideas.....I like the WSLPB way :)

LFJ

01-22-2013, 06:38 AM

Sorry I don't agree. If you pivot your body is facing at an angle which means if you hold Wu Sau the same as in SLT it will also be facing in that direction. Wu Sau changes position because of this and is relative to your opponent.

That's moving your wu-sau with your shifting, not holding wu-sau in space and shifting your body around it.

Hold wu-sau as in SNT and shift everything but the wu-sau. Lift up your bong-sau and you're in the exact position as found in CK or MYJ, with wu-sau on the central line. The wu-sau is in the same position relative to your opponent, whether in SNT, CK, or MYJ. It's not ever held to the side off that line.

Wu Sau does not draw in an incoming attack. :eek:

Didn't say it does. Wu-sau can do a number of things. One of those is drawing in as in SNT, yet with forward energy. That doesn't draw in the incoming attack. It guides it down and off to the side as I said. It works with or without a shift, depending on what is advantageous for the situation, and of course in cooperation with the other hand.

Wu Sau in SLT is for position and training.

According to you, it's not a position applicable to fighting. So what position and training? Why train a position you're not going to use?

Graham H

01-22-2013, 06:52 AM

Hold wu-sau as in SNT and shift everything but the wu-sau. Lift up your bong-sau and you're in the exact position as found in CK or MYJ, with wu-sau on the central line. The wu-sau is in the same position relative to your opponent, whether in SNT, CK, or MYJ. It's not ever held to the side off that line.

I'm not in the same position in Chum Kiu. We are different. No problem

Didn't say it does. Wu-sau can do a number of things. One of those is drawing in as in SNT, yet with forward energy. That doesn't draw in the incoming attack. It guides it down and off to the side as I said. It works with or without a shift, depending on what is advantageous for the situation, and of course in cooperation with the other hand.

Wu Sau has to come back in SLT otherwise we cannot train another Fook Sau properly!:D

According to you, it's not a position applicable to fighting. So what position and training? Why train a position you're not going to use?

I didn't say it was not applicable to fighting. I said that in SLT it is not the finished article. We are different. No problem.

Did I mention that we were different?? No problem :D:D:D

LFJ

01-22-2013, 07:04 AM

I'm not in the same position in Chum Kiu. We are different. No problem

Your wu-sau in CK is not on the central line between yourself and your opponent? That's the same point in space whether you are shifted or standing square in YJKYM. Philipp Bayer's is. Why is yours not if you follow him?

I didn't say it was not applicable to fighting. I said that in SLT it is not the finished article.

That wasn't you that said this? "Wu Sau from SLT is not for fighting."

Graham H

01-22-2013, 07:21 AM

Your wu-sau in CK is not on the central line between yourself and your opponent? That's the same point in space whether you are shifted or standing square in YJKYM. Philipp Bayer's is. Why is yours not if you follow him?

That wasn't you that said this? "Wu Sau from SLT is not for fighting."

Dude I'm not about to start doing you diagrams :rolleyes:

Wu Sau in Chum Kiu is on the centerline between you and your opponent but as you are pivoted an your shoulders are no longer square facing forward, the wu sau moves slightly. It has to otherwise it will be facing the wrong way. In SLT it is adjacent to your shoulders but if your shoulders are no longer facing forward an adjacent wu sau will be incorrect.

This discussion is pointless as I could show you in one second and then all will become clear. No point in continuing.

My Wu sau is in the same place for the same reasons as PB. I should know. He taught me it and it was different to any other lineage I had been involved in. Keeping it in the correct position during sparring is another story :D

Wu Sau should not been seen as a fighting application in SLT. In Chum Kiu yes but in SLT no!

Game over :p

Graham H

01-22-2013, 07:29 AM

How do you know about PB's Wu sau?? Are you a student?

LFJ

01-22-2013, 07:40 AM

Graham H

01-22-2013, 08:16 AM

I think you're just not getting what "same point in space means". No one is suggesting you keep your wu-sau at the center of your chest when you shift, which would be moving the wu-sau along with the rest of your body as a unit. Holding it in the "same point in space" while your body shifts around it ends up with it being closer to one shoulder, remaining on the central line between yourself and your opponent, and not too close or extended.

Wu-sau as done in SNT used in application of course doesn't draw all the way back to the chest. It stops sooner, but draws in nonetheless which guides the incoming attack on the outside of the arm down and off to the side. There's nothing wrong with such an application. There are of course many other things wu-sau does as well, but as far as I know that's pretty standard, simple SNT understanding in WSLVT.

Ok so we agree or disagree or a agree to disagree? :D

In my system the action you are referring to that draws the arm off to one side is Lan Sau (as shown in Chum Kiu) not Wu Sau. I'm not even comfortable with describing it like that because that particular action has Jut Sau inside but this is a forum and full of problems.

Wu Sau is for protection and your next hit position. No more. That is simple and enough for me otherwise we can create many things and call them many names.

Wing Tsun is a good example of that :D

k gledhill

01-22-2013, 08:57 AM

2 old clips as one new longer clip...... http://youtu.be/ODmA3MsS9kU

LFJ

01-22-2013, 10:36 PM

Ok so we agree or disagree or a agree to disagree? :D

I don't know. Everyone I've seen in WSLVT does this the same way, at least in form. The wu-sau is always on the central line between yourself and your opponent, whether squared in SNT or shifted in CK or MYJ. It is never anywhere off to the side of that line.

In my system the action you are referring to that draws the arm off to one side is Lan Sau (as shown in Chum Kiu) not Wu Sau. I'm not even comfortable with describing it like that because that particular action has Jut Sau inside but this is a forum and full of problems.

Wu Sau is for protection and your next hit position. No more. That is simple and enough for me otherwise we can create many things and call them many names.

That particular laan-sau starts from being caught with your arm up, where ideally you'd want your elbow down in wu-sau, but if you drop the elbow at that point the attacker can get in. So you maintain that slight angle and shift to the side, drawing the attack off.

The same concept works with wu-sau when your arm is extended and there is contact on the outside. You keep it level and draw it back half way and that guides the attack off to the side.

I don't know any clips on youtube demonstrating this without some digging, but David Peterson clearly explains it in his SNT dvd you can see, and I know other WSLVT instructors teach it as well.

The wu-sau in CK follows the yi-bong or paau-bong as a backup hand, as you say. But the wu-sau in SNT also has a function directly applicable to fighting, only it draws all the way back in the form to practice a long fuk-sau, whereas in application it would stop much further out.

Graham H

01-23-2013, 01:44 AM

I don't know. Everyone I've seen in WSLVT does this the same way, at least in form. The wu-sau is always on the central line between yourself and your opponent, whether squared in SNT or shifted in CK or MYJ. It is never anywhere off to the side of that line.

Well in my lineage it is for a very good reason and its something I was not exposed to up until I met PB. I had been involved in the WSL lineage for 5 years previous with "other" instructors.

That particular laan-sau starts from being caught with your arm up, where ideally you'd want your elbow down in wu-sau, but if you drop the elbow at that point the attacker can get in. So you maintain that slight angle and shift to the side, drawing the attack off.

I do not see the forms full of applications. Something else that I did not know about until PB.

The same concept works with wu-sau when your arm is extended and there is contact on the outside. You keep it level and draw it back half way and that guides the attack off to the side.

There is no time in a fight for such things to happen IMO

I don't know any clips on youtube demonstrating this without some digging, but David Peterson clearly explains it in his SNT dvd you can see, and I know other WSLVT instructors teach it as well.

I know what is in Davids DVD's and have met him and attended his seminars. I'm not involved with any other WSLVT instructors now. I was exposed to a different way of thinking and haven't looked back.

The wu-sau in CK follows the yi-bong or paau-bong as a backup hand, as you say. But the wu-sau in SNT also has a function directly applicable to fighting, only it draws all the way back in the form to practice a long fuk-sau, whereas in application it would stop much further out.

Yi Bongs, Paau Bongs, Low Bongs, High Bongs yadda yadda yadda. There is only one Bong Sau in my system.......a rotation of the elbow to open the way for the punch. No more. No less ;)

LFJ

01-23-2013, 02:33 AM

Come off it already, Graham. This is about the wu-sau in postures from the forms. It's the same in two sections of CK which I just labeled yi-bong and paau-bong for reference. This was never about the bong-sau so you don't have to tout the conceptual superiority of your system there. :rolleyes: Especially since we're talking about the same system.

I do not see the forms full of applications. Something else that I did not know about until PB.

There is no time in a fight for such things to happen IMO

You just finished describing the same function with the laan-sau from CK section 1, which in that case is simply a corrupt wu-sau performing the same function as introduced in SNT at an angle and with a shift. You can't tell it's the same thing apparently because you didn't start paying attention until CK.

Graham H

01-23-2013, 03:25 AM

LFJ

01-23-2013, 04:50 AM

Different than what? This isn't a bong-sau topic. Who cares? Just felt like pointing out all the things you like about PB's approach?

We're talking about wu-sau here. You previously said it's on the central line relative to your opponent, then you said it's moved slightly. Where is it now, on top of your shoulder?

GlennR

01-23-2013, 05:07 AM

LFJ

01-23-2013, 06:11 AM

Graham H

01-23-2013, 06:26 AM

The video was from someone apparently in WSLVT. The OP asked if it was standard VT. I think we can take WSL as the point of reference in that. We have video footage of him performing all the forms, and as far as I've seen practitioners of his method tend to do this posture the same with the wu-sau on the central line. But that's in form. In application may be another story, but I've never seen anyone do it differently in application, including PB, so...

Maybe you should go to PB and ask him personally and he will show you. I wouldn't take what's shown on video as concrete either. I used to make that mistake.

As for Wu Sau watch that video that Kev re-posted. The Wu Sau position is there and its not on center as it is in SLT is it? He also explains the reason why?

That should be good enough for you.

Starts at around 1:00 and he is explaining it rather than just standing there and doing it.

Graham H

01-23-2013, 06:41 AM

So you will see that in SLT all the hand positions and actions are not yet ready for fighting. This is why the form is full of small ideas. Not yet completed. When we can add the pivot, step and whole body into the equation (Lat Sau Jik Chun) then things can be trained in their entirety.

As for Wu Sau in SLT it is just one position held in the middle for training something. Mainly the elbow.

In your line it seems that many applications are attached to Wu Sau. This is wrong IMO. If that were the correct way then maybe Chum Kiu should come first :D

SLT is your ABC. All the components are there but no applications. We need Chum Kiu and Chi Sau to express these basic ideas and actions properly. WSL said that didn't he and yet many people can spend a whole day breaking SLT down into fighting applications. You cannot fight with SLT ideas. Many try which is why Ving Tsun becomes a battle for the center and ends up in arm glue slap festivals. Ving Tsun has a better strategy than that and it seems to fly over the top of peoples heads. Your WSL's of this world had a better idea and I think he referred to it as "a certain intelligence"

Wayfaring

01-23-2013, 09:06 AM

There are plenty of arts that employ the strategy of leaving an opening and countering when someone attacks the opening. The advantage of the strategy is that you can know where the attack is coming and get ahead of it on the counter-attack. One example of this in boxing is what is called the "Philly shell" where the lead jab hand is down leaving a jab opening to the head. Then head movement moves just enough to slip the jab, leaving good counters. IMO this is what the clip strategy and what PB is probably striving for in teaching this. Of course this is my interpretation and the PB crowd can chime in at will to correct me.

The problem with this strategy is that it violates some core fundamental principles, including chasing hands and economy of motion. Is this OK? Sure it is, as long as you are aware of the fundamentals and don't make this your new fundamental.

How do you deal with the Philly shell? Fundamentals. Instead of taking the bait and jabbing to the head, where elusive head movement can make you miss and open you up to counters, you start striking center of mass solar plexus - jab there, combos there. Also, strategies that leave openings are very susceptible to the feint. Chasing hands in general is very susceptible to the feint. Feint to the bait opening, then attack where the hands were when they react. This makes the fight go to quickness and timing as opposed to fundamental control of space. I would consider this more of a "trick" maneuver. When would I employ a strategy like this? Probably when I'm dealing with a straight-up hoss with fundamentals that's a bit much to deal with athletically and physically and the direct method isn't working. Employ some trickery. But I will always revert back to the fundamentally sound under stress and recovery. If you revert back to a "trick" maneuver as a habit under stress you are going to get destroyed in transition.

Anyways, my thoughts on the topic.

LFJ

01-23-2013, 09:31 AM

As for Wu Sau watch that video that Kev re-posted. The Wu Sau position is there and its not on center as it is in SLT is it? He also explains the reason why?

I get the idea in the video, just not sure where it originated. I don't see it appear in any of the forms and never heard of WSL teaching it. He even argued that it should be on the center relative to the opponent in CK rather than the center of the chest, but never crossing the center like that.

Holding a guard like that, trying to dictate how the opponent can attack and how you respond is impractical. It might work for the first second, but then you'll have to go back to guarding the center properly/ equally.

In your line it seems that many applications are attached to Wu Sau.

Not applications, just functions. Letters usually need combinations to make words and sentences, but individually they still have the sounds which function in those words. Your SNT wu-sau is the same shape and action as in CK section 1 laan-sau, only there it's combined with a different angle and body shifting to make something more dynamic of it. That's all. Same with bong, taan, etc.. The shape and action remains the same, there's just more cooperation with the rest of the body to enhance the function in a particular way.

Graham H

01-23-2013, 12:52 PM

Graham H

01-23-2013, 01:18 PM

I get the idea in the video, just not sure where it originated. I don't see it appear in any of the forms and never heard of WSL teaching it. He even argued that it should be on the center relative to the opponent in CK rather than the center of the chest, but never crossing the center like that.

Maybe you didn't hear of WSL teaching it but that doesn't mean he didn't! What does it matter anyway? He's not here to ask. I expect if he was he would be laughing at all the pointless fuss this is creating :D

Holding a guard like that, trying to dictate how the opponent can attack and how you respond is impractical. It might work for the first second, but then you'll have to go back to guarding the center properly/ equally.

It does me just fine and as I used to think like you and indeed practiced your system I think I'm in a good position to have my own ideas these days. :p

Not applications, just functions. Letters usually need combinations to make words and sentences, but individually they still have the sounds which function in those words. Your SNT wu-sau is the same shape and action as in CK section 1 laan-sau, only there it's combined with a different angle and body shifting to make something more dynamic of it. That's all. Same with bong, taan, etc.. The shape and action remains the same, there's just more cooperation with the rest of the body to enhance the function in a particular way.

Applications.....Functions......I say potato......you say potarrrrto:D

For me Bong Sau has nothing in comparison to Tan Sau. Tan Sau is a punch in my Ving Tsun. Bong Sau helps the punch. In fact both actions together make Kwan Sau........the punch (Tan Sau) starts from Wu Sau position and in order for this action to work Wu Sau must be in the position as shown by Silvano other wise you have to step to the outside which I'm guessing you would do right?. I punch and then cut the opponents way. Another gem that I knew nothing about in "other" WSL systems.

Can we talk about something else now? What did you have for dinner? I had fish :p:D

Wayfaring

01-23-2013, 02:04 PM

Who are you fighting when you are descibing this? A pro boxer? A cage fighter? Maybe a Ninja?:D

I have sparring partners that fit all of the above. Some more than one category.

You seem to create some perfect situations and how you would respond.....BS imo:)

And you are talking out your arse IMO.

All I am doing is describing how a pro boxer and coach instructs how to deal with the Philly shell and general strategy about when you want to resort to trickery.

I realize that since all you do is slap fight basically how that would really bend your mind around.

GlennR

01-23-2013, 02:33 PM

The video was from someone apparently in WSLVT. The OP asked if it was standard VT. I think we can take WSL as the point of reference in that. We have video footage of him performing all the forms, and as far as I've seen practitioners of his method tend to do this posture the same with the wu-sau on the central line. But that's in form. In application may be another story, but I've never seen anyone do it differently in application, including PB, so...

Yeh but see thats the thing, G isnt learning of WSL... he's learning of PB who learnt of WSL.

Try as hard as you like to keep it "pure", but WSLVT died when he did.

What you have left, for better or worse, is other peoples interpretations

GlennR

01-23-2013, 02:38 PM

]
There are plenty of arts that employ the strategy of leaving an opening and countering when someone attacks the opening. The advantage of the strategy is that you can know where the attack is coming and get ahead of it on the counter-attack. One example of this in boxing is what is called the "Philly shell" where the lead jab hand is down leaving a jab opening to the head. Then head movement moves just enough to slip the jab, leaving good counters. IMO this is what the clip strategy and what PB is probably striving for in teaching this. Of course this is my interpretation and the PB crowd can chime in at will to correct me.

Nice take on it. I actually watched the vid KG put up last night and thats a very good comparison youve made.

The problem with this strategy is that it violates some core fundamental principles, including chasing hands and economy of motion. Is this OK? Sure it is, as long as you are aware of the fundamentals and don't make this your new fundamental.

Works ok for mayweather.

How do you deal with the Philly shell? Fundamentals. Instead of taking the bait and jabbing to the head, where elusive head movement can make you miss and open you up to counters, you start striking center of mass solar plexus - jab there, combos there.

In our gym, when confronted with the above we aim at the very top of the chest.. works well.

Also, strategies that leave openings are very susceptible to the feint. Chasing hands in general is very susceptible to the feint. Feint to the bait opening, then attack where the hands were when they react. This makes the fight go to quickness and timing as opposed to fundamental control of space. I would consider this more of a "trick" maneuver. When would I employ a strategy like this? Probably when I'm dealing with a straight-up hoss with fundamentals that's a bit much to deal with athletically and physically and the direct method isn't working. Employ some trickery. But I will always revert back to the fundamentally sound under stress and recovery. If you revert back to a "trick" maneuver as a habit under stress you are going to get destroyed in transition.

Anyways, my thoughts on the topic.

Nice post

GlennR

01-23-2013, 02:40 PM

Who are you fighting when you are descibing this? A pro boxer? A cage fighter? Maybe a Ninja?:D

You seem to create some perfect situations and how you would respond.....BS imo:)

No G, he's just fighting

Who are you fighting? Old men? Children? Nuns? ;)

LFJ

01-24-2013, 03:21 AM

the punch (Tan Sau) starts from Wu Sau position and in order for this action to work Wu Sau must be in the position as shown by Silvano other wise you have to step to the outside which I'm guessing you would do right?. I punch and then cut the opponents way.

Looking at his video again, he explains that if your hands are kept on the center the opponent can only attack on two sides. If I'm on the center why would have to step to the outside? I can just go down the center.

I understand what he's doing with the wu-sau off center and cutting the line back in. Others have this line of attack too. That's called the 3rd line of attack in Hawkins Cheung's method. The 1st line is straight down the center. The 2nd line is cutting in from the outside. The 3rd line is cutting in from the opposite shoulder.

The only thing is, this is a line of attack that may be used to great effect in fighting, but as a luring guard? I think it might work against less experienced VT fighters. Practitioners of other styles won't necessarily be left with the one option you think you're giving them or be tempted to take the bait. I think I'd rather keep a normal center guard.

Funny he was doing all that talking about the elbow, which as a WSLVT practitioner I agree with, but then it cuts to him popping his elbow up on the dummy. I must keep the elbow down there.

Can we talk about something else now? What did you have for dinner? I had fish :p:D

Haven't had dinner yet. It's only past 6pm over here. But fish sounds good. :cool:

Graham H

01-24-2013, 03:29 AM

No G, he's just fighting

Who are you fighting? Old men? Children? Nuns? ;)

You forgot old women, babies, pregnant women, foxes, dogs and lamp posts!

Graham H

01-24-2013, 03:37 AM

Looking at his video again, he explains that if your hands are kept on the center the opponent can only attack on two sides. If I'm on the center why would have to step to the outside? I can just go down the center.

Not if you are fighting somebody who has the center protected at all times. The common mistake of trying to drive down the middle. That's ok if their arms are down. If they are up and fighting you back this idea is wrong. Most of my training has this in mind and Vt adopts a certain strategy to deal with it. I'm yet to see that strategy come through in your posts.

I understand what he's doing with the wu-sau off center and cutting the line back in. Others have this line of attack too. That's called the 3rd line of attack in Hawkins Cheung's method. The 1st line is straight down the center. The 2nd line is cutting in from the outside. The 3rd line is cutting in from the opposite shoulder.

Hawkins Cheung? 3 lines of attack? omfg

The only thing is, this is a line of attack that may be used to great effect in fighting, but as a luring guard? I think it might work against less experienced VT fighters. Practitioners of other styles won't necessarily be left with the one option you think you're giving them or be tempted to take the bait. I think I'd rather keep a normal center guard.

You do that mate and I'll keep my center :D

Funny he was doing all that talking about the elbow, which as a WSLVT practitioner I agree with, but then it cuts to him popping his elbow up on the dummy. I must keep the elbow down there.

Which just goes to show that maybe your Dummy knowledge is just as different as this is done for a very specific reason.

Haven't had dinner yet. It's only past 6pm over here. But fish sounds good. :cool:

Chinese food today. Wu Sau Chow Mein and Bong Sau Soup ;)

LFJ

01-24-2013, 04:01 AM

Not if you are fighting somebody who has the center protected at all times. The common mistake of trying to drive down the middle. That's ok if their arms are down. If they are up and fighting you back this idea is wrong. Most of my training has this in mind and Vt adopts a certain strategy to deal with it. I'm yet to see that strategy come through in your posts.

You were talking about reacting to an attack from this luring guard... :rolleyes: How come I get a different scenario?

If I'm on the center, according to your friend's video, the attacker has to come from the sides. So I wouldn't need to step to the outside.

Hawkins Cheung? 3 lines of attack? omfg

So I've heard. Not a fan?

Which just goes to show that maybe your Dummy knowledge is just as different as this is done for a very specific reason.

What's the very specific reason for popping your elbow up when doing a hyun or gaang-sau? It should pull from the elbow as he explained in the video.

Chinese food today. Wu Sau Chow Mein and Bong Sau Soup ;)

It's just called food over here. :D

Graham H

01-24-2013, 04:39 AM

You were talking about reacting to an attack from this luring guard... :rolleyes: How come I get a different scenario?

If I'm on the center, according to your friend's video, the attacker has to come from the sides. So I wouldn't need to step to the outside.

Dude if we were in the same room this conversation would have been over days ago. No more eh? Trying to explain stuff on a forum is pants.

So I've heard. Not a fan?

No but never met the guy so wouldn't like to make too much judgements.

What's the very specific reason for popping your elbow up when doing a hyun or gaang-sau? It should pull from the elbow as he explained in the video.

I can feel another long thread coming on :rolleyes:

Many moves in the dummy are not performed correctly or completed as the dummy is fixed and rigid unlike a human being.

Most people view the dummy as a person. The dummy is not a man and doesn't represent human limbs. The dummy is a conditioning tool. It conditions actions specific to Ving Tsun and the limbs are reference for the correct elbow position and for feedback. When I say conditioning I don't mean conditioning the limbs. I mean conditioning focus, precision, syncronicity, timing, balance and to develop the necessary shock force needed for striking and certain other actions. The dummy has no moving joints as a human does so one has to think correctly about what she/he is trying to achieve. The movement you are referring to is not heun/gaan. It is huen/jum for developing punching using the pivot and waist together and because there is feedback, balance and structure.

Although there are some fundamental ideas about recovery in the form on the whole it is for development.

No applications. Can you see a pattern emerging here? :D

It's just called food over here. :D

You live in China? Where?

LFJ

01-24-2013, 05:34 AM

No but never met the guy so wouldn't like to make too much judgements.

Oh, the question marks and "omfg" seemed like a judgement...

Many moves in the dummy are not performed correctly or completed as the dummy is fixed and rigid unlike a human being....

...It conditions actions specific to Ving Tsun and the limbs are reference for the correct elbow position and for feedback...

...The movement you are referring to is not heun/gaan. It is huen/jum for developing punching using the pivot and waist together and because there is feedback, balance and structure.

Yup, got all that. Pivot, waist power, elbow position, punch. But his left elbow popped up.

What I was saying is, the left hand does gaang-sau drawing from the elbow with a little circle of the wrist to guide the action while the right hand does jam-sau, but because of the dummy having wooden arms, the gaang-sau action must be modified and becomes a short hyun-sau action.

But either way, hyun or gaang, it should be drawing from the elbow, which can't be done if the elbow pops up to the side, higher than the dummy arm, like he did. I do this part drawing from the elbow, elbow down, with a circle to guide it while using the waist to pivot and snap back straight with the jam-sau/punch.

You say there's a "very specific" reason for popping the elbow up on either hyun-sau or gaang-sau? You didn't actually address that in your response.

You live in China? Where?

Shanghai.

Graham H

01-24-2013, 06:10 AM

Oh, the question marks and "omfg" seemed like a judgement...

Sorry Your Honor :D:D:D

Yup, got all that. Pivot, waist power, elbow position, punch. But his left elbow popped up.

Ask him about it. Maybe he was waving at you.

What I was saying is, the left hand does gaang-sau drawing from the elbow with a little circle of the wrist to guide the action while the right hand does jam-sau, but because of the dummy having wooden arms, the gaang-sau action must be modified and becomes a short hyun-sau action.

Guide what action?

But either way, hyun or gaang, it should be drawing from the elbow, which can't be done if the elbow pops up to the side, higher than the dummy arm, like he did. I do this part drawing from the elbow, elbow down, with a circle to guide it while using the waist to pivot and snap back straight with the jam-sau/punch.

Drawing the elbow?

You say there's a "very specific" reason for popping the elbow up on either hyun-sau or gaang-sau? You didn't actually address that in your response.

Yes ask him about it. I'm not in the video :)

Shanghai

well if I'm ever local I will look you up

LFJ

01-24-2013, 07:52 AM

Well, I ask you because you defended it saying my understanding is just different because there is a "very specific" reason for it.

Guide what action?

Drawing the elbow?

Guide the gaang-sau action drawing the opponent's arm, turning their body using waist power and drawing from the elbow (as he explained in the video talking about the SNT gaang-sau), along with the jam-sau. It has a little hyun in the wrist to direct the energy in a "drawing" action, rather than being a stiff, chopping action. The elbow draws downward and away to spin them in their stance. It shouldn't pop up over the height of the dummy's arm. That's even above your own wrist.

I just found it odd, the long speech about the elbow leading everything, then it breaks to a clip of his elbow popping way up like that.

well if I'm ever local I will look you up

Cool. Are you in China often?

Graham H

01-24-2013, 08:00 AM

Well, I ask you because you defended it saying my understanding is just different because there is a "very specific" reason for it.

Because the dummy arms are fixed. I already explained. Does it really matter?

Guide the gaang-sau action drawing the opponent's arm, turning their body using waist power and drawing from the elbow (as he explained in the video talking about the SNT gaang-sau), along with the jam-sau. It has a little hyun in the wrist to direct the energy in a "drawing" action, rather than being a stiff, chopping action. The elbow draws downward and away to spin them in their stance. It shouldn't pop up over the height of the dummy's arm. That's even above your own wrist.

Drawing the opponents arm is not my thinking so cannot discuss. Gan Sau in SLT is not an application to me. I already explained that as well. What is your idea behind why we do Gan Sau and please don't say to defend a kick or to try and manipulate your opponent about the place?

I just found it odd, the long speech about the elbow leading everything, then it breaks to a clip of his elbow popping way up like that.

Maybe you can post a clip of how it should be done.

Cool. Are you in China often?

No but there is a small chance I may be in April

LFJ

01-24-2013, 09:35 AM

Because the dummy arms are fixed. I already explained. Does it really matter?

Didn't realize that was your explanation for raising the elbow, because it's possible to do the hyun-sau (or short gaang-sau) on the dummy with the elbow not popping up higher than the dummy arm/ your own wrist.

Does it really matter? If you say it's a reference for correct elbow position, yes it does matter. Because the elbow should cooperate with the waist to drive the motion, but there's a disconnect when the elbow leaves the hip in that action. It's also leaving an opening if the elbow does a chicken wing like that, and it's just plain unsightly.

Drawing the opponents arm is not my thinking so cannot discuss. Gan Sau in SLT is not an application to me. I already explained that as well. What is your idea behind why we do Gan Sau and please don't say to defend a kick or to try and manipulate your opponent about the place?

Nor is it to me either. The particular action from the MYJ form as WSL taught it is a recovery from a wrong gaang-sau done on the inside of the opponent's arm. Hyun the wrist, draw from the elbow and use waist power to turn into jam-sau/punch.

Here's WSL doing the MYJ form. The hyun action is repeated numerous times, each with the elbow not raising above the dummy arm in a chicken wing. The first one is right at 13 seconds in the air dummy. The elbow is clearly below the wrist. The only time the elbow is above the wrist is in bong-sau, as it should. For a quick and clear view of it on the dummy arms just skip to 2:54ish. The elbow is below the wrist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfzeWu1ftTE

LFJ

01-24-2013, 10:04 AM

I always cringe when I see this chicken wing...

Here are some start and finish shots of the action directly following the "wrong gaang-sau". They are opposite sides, but that's the clearest shot.

Starting to circle the wrist and draw with the elbow. The elbow is still below the wrist and dummy arm at the end. Elbow-hip connection. Shoulders nice and even, squared up:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture-3_zps835ac713.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture_zpscb5ec851.png

Starting to circle the wrist, but popping the elbow up into a chicken wing even shrugging the shoulder a bit, breaking hip connection, losing elbow power, leaving an opening, and ending with the elbow still up as high as the shoulder over the wrist and dummy arm. Shoulders not square and uneven:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture-2_zps8dbeb846.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture-1_zpsa59b2783.png

Paddington

01-24-2013, 10:19 AM

LFG, ever come across the technique called kau sau? I am not saying that is what is presented in those photos but, from my knowledge, it does appear to be a kau sau. When closing the wooden dummy sections kau sau is often used; an arm has a jum sau contact (in the tan sau like shape) with one side of the dummy arm and then kau saus around to the other side of the dummy arm.

Although on the dummy both the jum and kau sau occur on the same dummy arm, one reality (what you need to imagine) is that the opponent has thrown another strike with his other arm; the first arm being blocked/deflected/controlled by your jum sau. So, here you switch to the other opposite outside gate from the jum sau via the kau sau. A turn or step with the technique goes without saying.

Anyway, that is just one application from the lineage I study under. Yes, for a kau sau the elbow does come up. You are right, I would not hunch either and would try not to engage my traps when raising my elbow.

EDIT: Oh, funnily enough like someones suggestion for a wu sau that encourages an attack via a certain gate, the jum sau I describe can be, in application, very shallow in order to encourage the opponent to attack along a particular line to set up kau sau.

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 11:01 AM

Paddington

01-24-2013, 11:36 AM

You could always state directly your derision K_gledhill, rather than merely posturing disapproval via your use of a well used internet meme.

Graham H

01-24-2013, 11:37 AM

Didn't realize that was your explanation for raising the elbow, because it's possible to do the hyun-sau (or short gaang-sau) on the dummy with the elbow not popping up higher than the dummy arm/ your own wrist.
Does it really matter? If you say it's a reference for correct elbow position, yes it does matter. Because the elbow should cooperate with the waist to drive the motion, but there's a disconnect when the elbow leaves the hip in that action. It's also leaving an opening if the elbow does a chicken wing like that, and it's just plain unsightly.

Leaving an opening for what? Disconnect when the elbow leaves the hip? You sound like my old Sifu :D

If you could go to his school and take advantage of such "mistakes" then we would be getting somewhere. I'm not sure you could. He comes from a good school and his Teacher is also very good.

Nor is it to me either. The particular action from the MYJ form as WSL taught it is a recovery from a wrong gaang-sau done on the inside of the opponent's arm. Hyun the wrist, draw from the elbow and use waist power to turn into jam-sau/punch.

Have you ever done a wrong gan sau before in a proper fight? :D

Here's WSL doing the MYJ form. The hyun action is repeated numerous times, each with the elbow not raising above the dummy arm in a chicken wing. The first one is right at 13 seconds in the air dummy. The elbow is clearly below the wrist. The only time the elbow is above the wrist is in bong-sau, as it should. For a quick and clear view of it on the dummy arms just skip to 2:54ish. The elbow is below the wrist.

Ah ok...WSL doing the form in his later years for the camera. That explains everything doesn't it? Lets take that as proof shal we? LOL

A bet that took you a while to produce your evidence Officer! :)

Graham H

01-24-2013, 11:41 AM

You could always state directly your derision K_gledhill, rather than merely posturing disapproval via your use of a well used internet meme.

I will.....Kau Sau is the biggest comedy action in Wing Chun. I was taught that once in my Ip Chun years.

Thank you for bringing back such wasted but pleasant memories Paddington. :D:D:D:D

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 11:48 AM

You could always state directly your derision K_gledhill, rather than merely posturing disapproval via your use of a well used internet meme.

because you want to argue about it...

Paddington

01-24-2013, 11:56 AM

I will.....Kau Sau is the biggest comedy action in Wing Chun. I was taught that once in my Ip Chun years.

Thank you for bringing back such wasted but pleasant memories Paddington. :D:D:D:D

because you want to argue about it...

Nope, just interested to hear why you are both not keen on kau sau. I am not one of those people that goes "no, it is like this" or "that's wrong that is how to do it" and then repeats disapproval. I am more than open to discuss advantages and disadvantages and that is not really to argue is it? Anyway, if you don't want to respond with words but rather well used Internet memes, then that is fine by me.

EDIT: I've found kau sau useful myself but then again I do move a lot on my feet. I tend to practice the movement in my knife forms too when switching to opposite sides.

Ali. R

01-24-2013, 12:49 PM

LFG, ever come across the technique called kau sau? I am not saying that is what is presented in those photos but, from my knowledge, it does appear to be a kau sau..

LMAO

Hellooooo, everybody!

It's a garm sao, transitioning into hieung sao.

Paddington

01-24-2013, 12:55 PM

LMAO

Hellooooo, everybody!

It's a garm sao, transitioning into hieung sao.

The latter photographs (not WSL) look like a kau sau from a closing of a section. At least in my lineage kau sau is an oft repeated movement in the dummy form. Ali, what do you think to kau sau? Ever used it much in a chi sau context?

Ali. R

01-24-2013, 01:10 PM

Ali, what do you think to kau sau? Ever used it much in a chi sau context?

Sure I have, the very first movement that you see me do on this clip is a ‘Kau Sao’, with my left hand. Stop it as it plays and you will see it, because it’s with a very strong flow to pick up on the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5IjROiKaaw&feature=share&list=PL74AD0BAD4D62A11A

Take care,

Paddington

01-24-2013, 01:35 PM

Sure I have, the very first movement that you see me do on this clip is a ‘Kau Sao’, with my left hand. Stop it as it plays and you will see it, because it’s with a very strong flow to pick up on the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5IjROiKaaw&feature=share&list=PL74AD0BAD4D62A11A

Take care,

Ah, I guess our reference points for a kau sau are a bit different. I didn't see what I would recognize as a kau sau in that vid at the point you suggested. I take it with kau sau you keep your elbow down?

Ali. R

01-24-2013, 01:42 PM

Ah, I guess our reference points for a kau sau are a bit different. I didn't see what I would recognize as a kau sau in that vid at the point you suggested. I take it with kau sau you keep your elbow down?

The ‘Kau Sao’ is used to grab ones trapezium or wrist, it actually receives the incoming intent or one could attack with it. In the 'Leung Sheung' system that I’m certified to teach in, we try not to bring our hands above or clavicle (elbows/shoulders are always dipped), but with only certain techniques and ‘Kau Sao isn’t one of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5IjROiKaaw&feature=share&list=PL74AD0BAD4D62A11A

Take care,

Paddington

01-24-2013, 01:45 PM

Link to that second vid does not work Ali. Yet another differences between the lineages. That is not to say that the way we do it is the better way, mind.

EDIT: link working now

Ali. R

01-24-2013, 02:00 PM

Link to that second vid does not work Ali. Yet another differences between the lineages. That is not to say that the way we do it is the better way, mind.

EDIT: link working now

When receiving the strike the block comes at shoulder level, because we block at the original line its taking. When we attack with it, there’s no need to bring the block up to our face/shoulder level but only to a line of less velocity and power.

Take care,

Paddington

01-24-2013, 04:33 PM

When receiving the strike the block comes at shoulder level, because we block at the original line its taking. When we attack with it, there’s no need to bring the block up to our face/shoulder level but only to a line of less velocity and power.

Take care,

Don't get me wrong, the way I use kau sau does not preclude performing it lower down. Yes, it becomes quite much like a passive gang sau then. Like you I use this structure to redirect opponents energy; taking them the way their energy wants to go.

I guess I highlighted the higher position earlier because right now, I am training with the knives and practicing the kau dao movement a lot.

EDIT: For me, the relationship between lower gang sau and kau sau is similar to the relationship between bong sau and dai bong sau.

Ali. R

01-24-2013, 07:00 PM

EDIT: For me, the relationship between lower gang sau and kau sau is similar to the relationship between bong sau and dai bong sau.

First of all, the ‘Kau Sao’ is not within the same family of blocks as the ‘Gong Sao’, even if it’s in a low position. Simply because the ‘Kau Sao’; is ONLY executed with the palm and fingers of the hand and NOT with the ulna of the arm, which is totally two different families of blocks.

The ‘Kau Sao’ would be in the ‘Lop’ family of blocks and not the bong sau.

Paddington

01-24-2013, 07:22 PM

First of all, the ‘Kau Sao’ is not within the same family of blocks as the ‘Gong Sao’, even if it’s in a low position. Simply because the ‘Kau Sao’; is ONLY executed with the palm and fingers of the hand and NOT with the ulna of the arm, which is totally two different families of blocks.

The ‘Kau Sao’ would be in the ‘Lop’ family of blocks and not the bong sau.

I think you misunderstand my terms of reference. Please alow me to briefly clarify.

I am not saying kau sau is related to bong sau in terms of contact points. In my post I assumed the part my body making contact as my point of reference (like you have done), by saying I saw a relationship between lower passive gang (not bong) sau and kau sau. Gang sau means, for me, splitting hand and kau sau, scooping hand.

The contact for both these techniques in my lineage, like yours it seems, has the palm towards the opponents arm. Commonly the crook where the palm meets the forearm (wrist joint) as-well as the palm blade and even the chunky thumb muscle, would be where I would want the opponent to make contact with me, depending on the situation with this technique.

I agree that bong sau and dai bong sau make contact at different points. I tried to indicate that dai bong sau is a lower version of bong sau, to be a bit crude. In trying to explain to you how my lineage views kau sau I said 'it is like a higher, passive lower gang sau'.

Of course the height varies and it is a thin line between when the kau sau becomes a lower passive gang sau shape. The same could be said for dai bong sau and bong sau. That was the only point of possible similarity I was trying to make between what you term 'family of blocks'.

Anyway, just to bring this back to the topic of this thread, as I was saying, yes I use wu sau in different positions to encourage certain lines of attack, so I can intercept and counter them. I tend to find my self using a scooping tan sau and sometimes a lap sau as my counters here.

I only mention kau sau because one way I use it requires it to be set up. Here the preceding shape would be a jum sau (could use a tan sau too) rather than a wu sau. However, like a seemingly mispositioned wu sau, the jum sau is cunningly positioned to encourage a certain line of attack to be countered.

EDIT: To give you context into why I do some of my wing chun the way I do. I am slender at 177.8 cm with a mass of just over 70kg (toned but slender). I've had many of my more larger opponents steam on through the center, so I find need for evasion, stepping around opponents and deploying cunning and guile, in my wing chun. The above techniques are a part of that repertoire.

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 08:01 PM

I think you misunderstand my terms of reference. Please alow me to briefly clarify.

I am not saying kau sau is related to bong sau in terms of contact points. In my post I assumed the part my body making contact as my point of reference (like you have done), by saying I saw a relationship between lower passive gang (not bong) sau and kau sau. Gang sau means, for me, splitting hand and kau sau, scooping hand.

The contact for both these techniques in my lineage, like yours it seems, has the palm towards the opponents arm. Commonly the crook where the palm meets the forearm (wrist joint) as-well as the palm blade and even the chunky thumb muscle, would be where I would want the opponent to make contact with me, depending on the situation with this technique.

I agree that bong sau and dai bong sau make contact at different points. I tried to indicate that dai bong sau is a lower version of bong sau, to be a bit crude. In trying to explain to you how my lineage views kau sau I said 'it is like a higher, passive lower gang sau'.

Of course the height varies and it is a thin line between when the kau sau becomes a lower passive gang sau shape. The same could be said for dai bong sau and bong sau. That was the only point of possible similarity I was trying to make between what you term 'family of blocks'.

Anyway, just to bring this back to the topic of this thread, as I was saying, yes I use wu sau in different positions to encourage certain lines of attack, so I can intercept and counter them. I tend to find my self using a scooping tan sau and sometimes a lap sau as my counters here.

I only mention kau sau because one way I use it requires it to be set up. Here the preceding shape would be a jum sau rather than a wu sau. However, like a seemingly mispositioned wu sau, the jum sau is cunningly positioned to encourage a certain line of attack to be countered.

" Chunky thumb muscle " deserves

Paddington

01-24-2013, 08:23 PM

" Chunky thumb muscle " deserves

I could look up the more scientific terms if you want but you know the particular little crook I mean.

Anyway, kind of hard for me to see what issues you have with what I have said or what issues you have with me, when you can't even be bothered to engage in monosyllabic grunts let alone whole sentences and paragraphs. As I put it in an edit to my magnum opus of a post, there is a reason why I do wing chun like I do, body type and all that.

Ali. R

01-24-2013, 08:28 PM

I could look up the more scientific terms if you want but you know the particular little crook I mean.

It would be pretty hard for me to connect the three dealing with the bong and gong sao; with the fact that the ‘Kau Sao’ is all hand and the app I’d use is just the line I chose to take within the points of limits dealing with the ‘Kau Sao’ structure, there is no ulna and radius at play anywhere within that app.

"chunky thumb muscle" is actually a bone called the trapezium: a bone in the wrist that articulates with the metacarpal bone of the thumb.

I’ve mention that (trapezium) within the third post I’d made on this thread.

Paddington

01-24-2013, 08:35 PM

Happy Tiger

01-24-2013, 09:03 PM

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 09:08 PM

I could look up the more scientific terms if you want but you know the particular little crook I mean.

Anyway, kind of hard for me to see what issues you have with what I have said or what issues you have with me, when you can't even be bothered to engage in monosyllabic grunts let alone whole sentences and paragraphs. As I put it in an edit to my magnum opus of a post, there is a reason why I do wing chun like I do, body type and all that.

ugh, me no like'um you're idea's

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 09:15 PM

my Cau Sau
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/moontyger_2007/IMG_0814.jpg

You where doing so well until the 'photo'...proving it.

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 09:16 PM

It would be pretty hard for me to connect the three dealing with the bong and gong sao; with the fact that the ‘Kau Sao’ is all hand and the app I’d use is just the line I chose to take within the points of limits dealing with the ‘Kau Sao’ structure, there is no ulna and radius at play anywhere within that app.

"chunky thumb muscle" is actually a bone called the trapezium: a bone in the wrist that articulates with the metacarpal bone of the thumb.

I’ve mention that (trapezium) within the third post I’d made on this thread.

Ali, there is no such thing as kau sao.

Paddington

01-24-2013, 09:19 PM

my Cau Sau
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/moontyger_2007/IMG_0814.jpg

Yes, I have done kau sau like that too. I am assuming you are doing the dar hung jong? (dummy form without the dummy?)

Ali, there is no such thing as kau sao.

Well, as you know I train through the Ip Chun lineage and it is there. You cannot deny that. As I said, your lineage might be different though. Just trying to share how I see that shape and how I use it. You have yet to actually state what you think is wrong with the shape i describe and some uses.

LFJ

01-24-2013, 09:34 PM

@Kevin, lol, you're too much!

@Paddington Bear, we don't do kau-sau in WSLVT, so that's definitely not what it is.

Leaving an opening for what? Disconnect when the elbow leaves the hip? You sound like my old Sifu :D

The same opening made by the wrong gaang-sau, which is to be covered by drawing the elbow and turning the opponent away. Pulling a chicken wing leaves that same opening and doesn't have the drawing power of the elbow-down position.

If you could go to his school and take advantage of such "mistakes" then we would be getting somewhere. I'm not sure you could. He comes from a good school and his Teacher is also very good.

He sounds invincible. So he's the kind of guy who's awkward mistakes can never hurt him, huh? Sounds impressive enough. I'm not gonna tell him he can't do his chicken wing chun then. We can just discuss the pros and cons of us less gifted folk doing it.

Have you ever done a wrong gan sau before in a proper fight? :D

I've used this action from a gaang-sau setup opening the opponent's guard. The waist power turns the opponent's core through the elbow. You can feel it in your hip, so long as your elbow is down. You lose that with the chicken wing and would be relying on the triceps/shoulder to just move their hand.

Ah ok...WSL doing the form in his later years for the camera. That explains everything doesn't it? Lets take that as proof shal we? LOL

Well, not just. He also taught it. That's just to show you.

A bet that took you a while to produce your evidence Officer! :)

Nope. It's a snap with a mac. :)

Paddington

01-24-2013, 09:48 PM

@Kevin, lol, you're too much!

@Paddington Bear, we don't do kau-sau in WSLVT, so that's definitely not what it is.

If by 'we' you mean this sub-forum then you are mistaken as not everyone here practices your lineage, WSLVT. I am pretty sure this forum did not have the WSLVT name on the door when I walked in.

TBH, quite a few of you block discussions in an act of what I can only describe as territorial p***ing, much like dogs do. Reading post histories I have yet to decide if play ground bullies is the best way to describe some of you.

Either way, if you know what I am talking about, and one of you did as you had experience down the ip chun lineage, you can still discuss what you think are the flaws with the shape and the usages I discuss. It is, after all, a discussion board. Why is such a shape and usage not used in your lineage?

EDIT: If that picture, Happy Tiger, was just to trick me then fair enough. Still, I see a kau sau there in part shape, hard to see energy direction in a static image. If this is the case you are just reinforcing my view about the adolescent nature of some of you.

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 09:54 PM

Yes, I have done kau sau like that too. I am assuming you are doing the dar hung jong? (dummy form without the dummy?)

Well, as you know I train through the Ip Chun lineage and it is there. You cannot deny that. As I said, your lineage might be different though. Just trying to share how I see that shape and how I use it. You have yet to actually state what you think is wrong with the shape i describe and some uses.

Yes I deny that, there is no kau sao.

Paddington

01-24-2013, 09:57 PM

Yes I deny that, there is no kau sao.

It is taught by several of the certified Ip Chun instructors that I know. It is even in one their books. So, to all tense and purposes it does exist in my lineage. One of you even admitted as much.

Vajramusti

01-24-2013, 09:59 PM

Yes I deny that, there is no kau sao.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not in Ip Chun or Bayer's "lineage"-whatever that means- but kau sau exists!!

Paddington

01-24-2013, 10:03 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not in Ip Chun or Bayer's "lineage"-whatever that means- but kau sau exists!!

(my emphasis)

I share that thought! But you know I just feel that given the people here you need to give context to why you view something as you do, in their terms.

LFJ

01-24-2013, 10:16 PM

If by 'we' you mean this sub-forum then you are mistaken as not everyone here practices your lineage, WSLVT. I am pretty sure this forum did not have the WSLVT name on the door when I walked in.

Obviously by "we" I mean "in WSLVT", as I said...

This topic was concerning a video from a practitioner of WSLVT. The picture I posted which you commented on was a still from that video. Since "we in WSLVT" don't have a kau-sau I again state that is definitely not what it is. You may do whatever, but that's not what it is here.

If you want my opinion on why it is a mistake, just read my previous posts.

Paddington

01-24-2013, 10:21 PM

Obviously by "we" I mean "in WSLVT", as I said...
If you want my opinion on why it is a mistake, just read my previous posts.

I did. The usage I outlined differs and I didn't see the relevancy in your points. BTW, in the post where I first mentioned kau sau I did actually say there and admit that I didn't know if that was what was being shown. Hard to tell in a static image and not knowing WSLVT. Still you knew what I meant and you could have just said as much and made your thoughts on kau sau ala Ip Chun known.

Instead you guys decided to take several posts to get to this point, but hey, gave you a chance to take the p*** out of me and have a laugh at my expense.

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 10:47 PM

I did. The usage I outlined differs and I didn't see the relevancy in your points. BTW, in the post where I first mentioned kau sau I did actually say there and admit that I didn't know if that was what was being shown. Hard to tell in a static image and not knowing WSLVT. Still you knew what I meant and you could have just said as much and made your thoughts on kau sau ala Ip Chun known.

Instead you guys decided to take several posts to get to this point, but hey, gave you a chance to take the p*** out of me and have a laugh at my expense.

There never was a 'kau sao'....

k gledhill

01-24-2013, 10:51 PM

LFJ

01-24-2013, 11:07 PM

I did. The usage I outlined differs and I didn't see the relevancy in your points. BTW, in the post where I first mentioned kau sau I did actually say there and admit that I didn't know if that was what was being shown. Hard to tell in a static image and not knowing WSLVT. Still you knew what I meant and you could have just said as much and made your thoughts on kau sau ala Ip Chun known.

Then watch the video the image was pulled from and this entire topic was opened on before commenting. And I replied to tell you, in WSLVT there is no such kau-sau.

I have no thoughts on kau-sau ala Ip Chun, unless it is done as in the video. If so, refer again back to my previous posts. If not, it's irrelevant. Open a new topic.

LFJ

01-25-2013, 12:06 AM

This video came up in the related videos. Trained under WSL since 1972:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTbxfBxslHo

Every time he does this action to end a section, what is his elbow position? Below his wrist and the dummy arm. Watch the action repeated at 1:39. I bet Silvano looks really funny doing this flapping all his chicken wings. :p

Graham H

01-25-2013, 12:39 AM

LFJ if you are picking minor faults in the original video by Silvano I could pick 100 major ones in that video :D

What is the point though? It's just a guy doing a form for the camera and should be taken in that context ;)

Graham H

01-25-2013, 12:42 AM

As for Kau Sau no need for any input. It's a pointless action and a pointless subject.

I came to that conclusion after years of practicing it via Ip Chun :)

LFJ

01-25-2013, 12:48 AM

What is a minor fault? If it yields counterproductive results to what the action is to accomplish, then I call it a major fault. The video I just posted was only to show the proper way to perform the one action as WSL taught it anyway.

My point in picking on the chicken wing was just that I found it funny, after such a lecture on the importance of the elbow position and elbow leading each action, then that. It's also just something that catches my eye every time someone does it because it's so unsightly. :p The elbow pops way up and I'm like argh! :eek:

wingchunIan

01-25-2013, 01:18 AM

Yes I deny that, there is no kau sao.

WSL openly discussed how he had modified and adapted what he was taught by Ip Man. On other discussion threads it has been clearly shown that what PB teaches is different in certain aspects to even other senior teachers of the WSL lineage. So when the majority of Wing Chun lineages have kau sao in their repertoire but you do not, you reach the conclusion that kau sao doesn't exist, amazing logic. To put it in your own terms :p
7254

Sean66

01-25-2013, 01:28 AM

GlennR

01-25-2013, 01:32 AM

WSL openly discussed how he had modified and adapted what he was taught by Ip Man. On other discussion threads it has been clearly shown that what PB teaches is different in certain aspects to even other senior teachers of the WSL lineage. So when the majority of Wing Chun lineages have kau sao in their repertoire but you do not, you reach the conclusion that kau sao doesn't exist, amazing logic. To put it in your own terms :p
7254

Nicely put Ian.

It does make me wonder why they are so emotionally attached to their way of thinking.

Graham H

01-25-2013, 01:35 AM

My point in picking on the chicken wing was just that I found it funny, :

Oh cluck off mate! lmao :D:D:D:D:D

GlennR

01-25-2013, 01:38 AM

Oh cluck off mate! lmao :D:D:D:D:D

Dont egg him on!!!

LFJ

01-25-2013, 01:39 AM

@Sean - Yes, good! :)

@Ian - I don't know anyone in WSLVT that does kau-sau.

@Everyone - Let's remember that this topic was started on and has always been about things as done in WSLVT. So don't get upset when your thing isn't met with interest. Start another general topic on kau-sau. ;)

Graham H

01-25-2013, 01:41 AM

Nicely put Ian.

It does make me wonder why they are so emotionally attached to their way of thinking.

It may have something to do with having already tried all these other flavors Glenn me old china! :)

Why don't you try it and then you can make assumptions.....oh hang on wait a minute. You don't need to do you? :D

I was involved in the Ip Chun lineage for years. I've met Ip Chun, watched, listened and used "kau sau". The action is pants. That's my opinion. I'm allowed that on a public forum am I not??

Graham H

01-25-2013, 01:42 AM

dont egg him on!!!

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

GlennR

01-25-2013, 01:44 AM

@Everyone - Let's remember that this topic was started on and has always been about things as done in WSLVT. So don't get upset when your thing isn't met with interest. Start another general topic on kau-sau. ;)

Whats wrong with a thread evolving?

Or is there a WSLVT method of running a forum that must be adhered to??

God help us if there is a PBWSLVT method of running a forum.... Kevin will bombard us with clips for the next decade or two!

LFJ

01-25-2013, 01:53 AM

Whats wrong with a thread evolving?

That's not evolving, but changing the entire topic.

The kau-sau is completely irrelevant to anything discussed or shown here.

GlennR

01-25-2013, 01:59 AM

That's not evolving, but changing the entire topic.

The kau-sau is completely irrelevant to anything discussed or shown here.

Its irrelevant in YOUR POV, some guys here saw a reason to mention it.

It then involved a few more people that joined in (makes it more interesting all round), it sure beats the hell out of you and G arguing the same point over and over again

But then thats only MY opinion.......

LFJ

01-25-2013, 02:09 AM

Its irrelevant in YOUR POV, some guys here saw a reason to mention it.

Go look back at what that reason was. Paddington misunderstood a still image because he didn't watch the video it came from, so it wasn't a good reason to "evolve" into a kau-sau discussion and it's still irrelevant.

Graham H

01-25-2013, 03:05 AM

it sure beats the hell out of you and G arguing the same point over and over again.

How dare you!!!!

You're right though :D

GlennR

01-25-2013, 03:43 AM

How dare you!!!!

You're right though :D

Apparently im not right and there is a correct procedure to adhere to according to LFJ

But thats ok.... the yolks on him!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Happy Tiger

01-25-2013, 05:34 AM

You where doing so well until the 'photo'...proving it.
Ha Ha :) well the best way to stay pretty here is to never actually show your self doing VT then your asking for trouble.
I believe in the Kau Sau.(Cau Sau)!!!It was introduced to me 'conceptually' as one of the three "assembly moves"...; Kwun Sau (Gwun Sau,the greatest) High/ Low Gahn Sau (or Sissors Gahn Sau.) and the strange....Cau Sau. These three assembly moves constitute the 'transfer station' of VT.

Graham H

01-25-2013, 05:42 AM

Ha Ha :) well the best way to stay pretty here is to never actually show your self doing VT then your asking for trouble.
I believe in the 'Kau Sau" Cau sau!!!It was introduced to me 'conceptually' as one of the three "assembly moves"Kau Sau (the greatest) High Low Gahn Sau (or Sissors Gahn Sau.) and the strange....Cau Sau. These three assembly moves constitute the 'transfer station' of VT.

Why isn't there an emoticon for being sick on here?? :eek::D

Graham H

01-25-2013, 05:43 AM

Apparently im not right and there is a correct procedure to adhere to according to LFJ

But thats ok.... the yolks on him!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!

He'll be spitting feathers in a moment!

Happy Tiger

01-25-2013, 05:49 AM

Why isn't there an emoticon for being sick on here?? :eek::D
which one is that, anyway?

Happy Tiger

01-25-2013, 05:53 AM

Ha Ha :) well the best way to stay pretty here is to never actually show your self doing VT then your asking for trouble.
I believe in the Kau Sau.(Cau Sau)!!!It was introduced to me 'conceptually' as one of the three "assembly moves"...; Kwun Sau (Gwun Sau,the greatest) High/ Low Gahn Sau (or Sissors Gahn Sau.) and the strange....Cau Sau. These three assembly moves constitute the 'transfer station' of VT.
These three moves are important in VT . They move, they switch, they fold they merge. They recover and recycle energy.
The switch/ change moves of VT.

Paddington

01-25-2013, 06:03 AM

That's not evolving, but changing the entire topic.

The kau-sau is completely irrelevant to anything discussed or shown here.

Thing is if you actually read what I wrote at the start you will see that it is relevant. The topic title is 'Wu sau: positioning, reference and gate strategy' and my mentioning of kau sau engaged with the positioning and gate strategy themes, except here a jum/tan/upper gang sau rather than the wu sau is positioned carefully and strategically.

I am sorry that some of you feel like there is only one way to do wing chun. It is a shame that you cannot find the energy to tell me why you dislike kau sau.

LFJ

01-25-2013, 06:56 AM

It is a shame that you cannot find the energy to tell me why you dislike kau sau.

You got a video? I said I don't really have a view of it since it's not part of WSLVT. But if you really want some comment on it, show me what you're talking about.

Paddington

01-25-2013, 07:06 AM

You got a video? I said I don't really have a view of it since it's not part of WSLVT. But if you really want some comment on it, show me what you're talking about.

I don't have the capability to produce a video of myself doing that move. It is a shame that you do not know what it looks like, even if it is not in WSLVT. I'll see if I can hunt down a youtube video or something.

Ali. R

01-25-2013, 07:29 AM

It seems that we have a difference in our reference points as to what i mean by a kau sau and a lower passive gang sau shape. Such are the limitations of talking on the forums. In person I would just show you. :D

I follow you now. I did the ‘Kao Sao’ set about three to four times this morning on the wooden man and had my wife punch at me (was like pulling teeth) , and it does seem to have a subliminal transition/shapes dealing with bong or gong sao when used as a block.

I’d just never used that frame of mind in connecting the three in resemblances, but yet, there it was. By giving it great thought I can see what you’ve been saying now. When I made the circling of the wrist a little bigger from what I was taught, then it was reveled to me.

Take care,

LFJ

01-25-2013, 07:48 AM

I don't have the capability to produce a video of myself doing that move. It is a shame that you do not know what it looks like, even if it is not in WSLVT. I'll see if I can hunt down a youtube video or something.

Apparently there are different ideas of what a kau-sau is and does. Since I don't have my own interpretation, I can't say.

LFJ

01-25-2013, 08:00 AM

k gledhill

01-25-2013, 08:48 AM

At 1:37 there's a good exercise for huen/jum keeping the elbow down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VXEbFLUL5w

"Cutting the way" is a strategy that has been highly developed in Philipp Bayer's Ving Tsun. This is what Silvano is talking about in the video. And I think Graham has shared some good informatioin about this strategy in the thread.
No reason to keep arguing, in my opinion.

Good example, the issue with kau sao is to do with the HEIGHT of the dummy, for many it is too high making it physically hard to rotate and keep the elbow low. If your dummy is too high ALL the low elbow/body unity developed is being made to open the elbow and raise up...a dummy's arms should be chest level so the ELBOWS can work correctly as Sean shows.
Yip Chun by his height would make a kau sao just to do huen etc...I adjust height of the dummy for taller , shorter students, NOT so the dummy is a taller opponent ; )

k gledhill

01-25-2013, 08:54 AM

In SLT we dont train to raise the elbow while doing huen sao lowering the forearm to strike. Its the opposite, a common error when teaching the huen sao is the elbow wants to also lift outwards or retract backwards and elbow out...It will work if the person doing it doesnt know the way to show the error by simply striking forwards.
SLT we maintain elbow /centerline integrity . Even BG we do pivoting lowering huen sao 3 times with elbow as SLT. There is no hook hand elbow out turning away from the opponent.

Ali. R

01-25-2013, 09:12 AM

Good example, the issue with kau sao is to do with the HEIGHT of the dummy, for many it is too high making it physically hard to rotate and keep the elbow low

I’ve never within the 32 years of using the ‘Kao Sao’ have had a problem keeping my elbow/shoulders down when in application.

That’s a very bold statement; from one who believes that it’s no such thing as a ‘Kao Sao.’

It went from:

Ali, there is no such thing as kau sao.

To:

Yes I deny that, there is no kau sao.

And then:

There never was a 'kau sao'....

This time referring it in a format:

only in a compliant chi-sao world ; )

Now to an application:

Good example, the issue with kau sao is to do with the HEIGHT of the dummy, for many it is too high making it physically hard to rotate and keep the elbow low

While all along believing this:

Yes I deny that, there is no kau sao.

Paddington

01-25-2013, 09:22 AM

I adjust height of the dummy for taller , shorter students, NOT so the dummy is a taller opponent ; )

I am quite lucky at the school where I train. With a row of 8 dummies on one wall, all of different shapes, sizes and heights, I love starting at one end and working my way down the row whilst practicing my dummy form. I'll do a section, move to the next dummy and repeat it.

Once I get to the end I travel back the other way doing the next section and so on. Just like a real opponent, you get to appreciate slight differences in lines and positions when faced with differently sized dummies.

EDIT: With huen sau I too keep my elbow down too, particularly with changes in chi sau.

k gledhill

01-25-2013, 09:24 AM

k gledhill

01-25-2013, 09:37 AM

I am quite lucky at the school where I train. With a row of 8 dummies on one wall, all of different shapes, sizes and heights, I love starting at one end and working my way down the row whilst practicing my dummy form. I'll do a section, move to the next dummy and repeat it.

Once I get to the end I travel back the other way doing the next section and so on. Just like a real opponent, you get to appreciate slight differences in lines and positions when faced with differently sized dummies.

EDIT: With huen sau I too keep my elbow down too, particularly with changes in chi sau.

Do you see the varying heights as a shorter/taller person and applying all this while turning back and forth in front of them doing actions like chi-sao , redirecting things ?

Ali. R

01-25-2013, 09:44 AM

I’m sorry I don’t follow you, because I haven’t seen it demonstrated on clip other then me, and from what I’ve read, while at the same time pounding and having experience with the ‘kao Sao’, I went looking for answers dealing with others interruptions and views with an open mind.

I know what a ‘Kao Sao’ is, just look at my previous posts.

Take care,

wingchunIan

01-25-2013, 09:44 AM

Is it like what this robot is doing after bong-sau? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rtE94S_2A

I'm not sure how that's supposed to be utilized, but it appears to have the same problems I mentioned before. There's no hip-elbow connection, it's using triceps/shoulder strength, it's at the wrong angle if it's meant to be used in a similar fashion to gaang-sau and would easily collapse. Better to angle with the ulna in a stronger structure and draw from the elbow/hip.

definitely not as far as the way i was taught. I will, at the risk of baiting the trolls, see if i can get someone to video me doing kau sao on the dummy to illustrate how I have been taught (not saying its the only way/ best etc).
In essence kau sao allows you move from one side of the arm to the other in a similar way to huen sao (obviously in both cases you would only move if the situation required it ie you had made a mistake, there was distinct advantage) but is used when the direction of force received is more in to out / down to up. In such cases trying to do huen sao (which I agree is done with the elbow down) is futile as you will either be trying to move a bone through your own forearm or will be attempting to circle down against a limb that is trying to rise. The action is the same as kau dao in the knife form opening section and is used for similar reasons (that action is there to get to the other side of a pole/ spear and is done with the elbow up because the pole/ spear you are trying to move round will not allow your arm to pass through it).
To address your question about disconnect from the hip. Kau sao is powered from the hip in a similar way to bong sao but in reverse. As the hip moves backwards so the arm is rotated drawing the hand backwards as the hip moves.

Vajramusti

01-25-2013, 09:55 AM

LFJ

01-25-2013, 10:21 AM

In such cases trying to do huen sao (which I agree is done with the elbow down) is futile as you will either be trying to move a bone through your own forearm or will be attempting to circle down against a limb that is trying to rise.

I explained earlier in the discusion on the action in the MYJ form that because the dummy arm is wooden and immovable, the action is modified into a short hyun-sau, whereas it would start with the wrist circle and then draw with the elbow into a fuller gaang-sau. The stiffer the opponent is with their force, the more it will spin them out of their stance. That's all the better. It's powerful enough because it's using waist power through the elbow. So I don't see that as a problem that should be solved by raising the elbow, much weaker.

To address your question about disconnect from the hip. Kau sao is powered from the hip in a similar way to bong sao but in reverse. As the hip moves backwards so the arm is rotated drawing the hand backwards as the hip moves.

Not quite sure how that'd work. The hip power in bong-sau works because of the forward energy, rooting and structure, from the ground up. Turning it into a hooking action drawing away with the elbow up would engage the triceps/shoulder, from the hand back, even if the action is initiated by the waist, and wouldn't have the same effect of spinning the opponent as from the power of drawing with the elbow down.

Rather than on a dummy, I'd like to see the effect this kau-sau has on a live person.

k gledhill

01-25-2013, 10:30 AM

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1207731]Ali what do you think a kau sao is, if this is a terminology mix up ??
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the sil lim tao that I do-after the section beginning with the gum sao is over- the next set of moves involves a kau (shoulder) towards one shoulder then a reverse jut (jerking hand) towards the other shoulder ending with a chan jeong forward chop with the side of the palm at the neck.

The kau may look similar to a pak but is not the same.

The pak is already done after the initial slow tan, huen, wu, fok section of the slt.

In his videos WSL makes his move look like a pak. I respect WSL but I am not a WSL worshiper
and the WSL name droppers on this thread can have their own opinions.

Moves may look similar but there are differences in the details.

I looked at a youtube clip, not what we are discussing. Kau sao, a name given to an action from the error of trying to find application to a raised elbow on a rigid dummy arm set too high for the practitioner ;)

Imagine doing a huen sao while lifting your elbow up to look like a bong sao as it is hooking to the outside of your centerline....That is considered a big error, but due to the rigid arm of the dummy the low elbow huen sao gets transformed and given a name Kau Sau :D

anyway, why bother :confused:

Paddington

01-25-2013, 10:44 AM

k gledhill

01-25-2013, 10:56 AM

Problem is K_gledhil et al, is that you guys show a misunderstanding of the lineage of wing chun that we have been taught. As both Ian and I have stressed, we view a kao sau as distinct from a heun sau where we also keep our elbows down.

Sadly, no...I used to do similar to you and 'triple facepalmer', Ian ;)

I have chi-saoed with both Y Ching and Y Chun, so its not like I never met them and saw and experienced first hand, something you should try. Dont take one persons idea as stone...my apologies for face palming you, I just needed a laugh :D this forum can be amusing.

Paddington

01-25-2013, 03:19 PM

Sadly, no...I used to do similar to you and 'triple facepalmer', Ian ;)

I have chi-saoed with both Y Ching and Y Chun, so its not like I never met them and saw and experienced first hand, something you should try. Dont take one persons idea as stone...my apologies for face palming you, I just needed a laugh :D this forum can be amusing.

I have chi sau'ed with Ip Chun but that is not my point. My point is that you need to spend time training down one of Ip Chun's representatives for quite a while, before you can start to appreciate some of the more interesting stuff. I am interested to know how long you trained within the Ip Chun branch of wing chun. I ask as I see much of kau sau from the knife form rather than the dummy form and I am not sure you know how to decode some of the dummy training, that we do.

k gledhill

01-25-2013, 04:12 PM

I have chi sau'ed with Ip Chun but that is not my point. My point is that you need to spend time training down one of Ip Chun's representatives for quite a while, before you can start to appreciate some of the more interesting stuff. I am interested to know how long you trained within the Ip Chun branch of wing chun. I ask as I see much of kau sau from the knife form rather than the dummy form and I am not sure you know how to decode some of the dummy training, that we do.

Decode the dummy ? , okay back to face palms ; )

Paddington

01-25-2013, 04:24 PM

Decode the dummy ? , okay back to face palms ; )

I don't mind explaining what I mean by decode. Often when doing the dummy form I like to visualize an opponent there throwing a combination. For some sections of the wooden dummy, movements work well together to block combinations. Sometimes you can take the same dummy movement and visualize it in a different scenario with a different combination of attacks from an imaginary opponent, thinking about the lines and dangers etc.

Going through the process of learning the dummy and using it as I crudely describe above, is what I mean by decoding.

EDIT: Interesting that you still don't answer my questions regarding how long you trained down the Ip Chun line.

Happy Tiger

01-25-2013, 07:22 PM

Ali what do you think a kau sao is, if this is a terminology mix up ?? doing a lowering huen sao while keeping the elbow low and in during execution is not what is being touted here as a kau sao...aka lifting elbow like a bong sao and hooking the hand around another ?

That action of lifting the elbow/hooking an arm and turning away from your opponent does not exist, not in the logic of our thinking.

A lot of students will use a dummy too high for them making them do a opening elbow hooking action.
The action of Cau Sau is transitional . Hard to describe. Cau Sau is a 'strange' force in VT it is a tool to switch tracks or merge opponents attack to a single gate.It's hand positioning is tan sao forward, huen sao pulled back so both can hold the centerline.Peculure structure for changing opponents line of fire in a predictable way.

Happy Tiger

01-25-2013, 07:39 PM

This has been a very informitative thread for me. The Cau Sau detour helps add dimension to the issue of wu sau positioning.

GlennR

01-25-2013, 07:54 PM

Hey LFJ..... theyre back off topic again!!!

Better call the forum police ;)

Happy Tiger

01-25-2013, 08:58 PM

so what the **** is the sinopsus of this point of intrestest?

Paddington

01-26-2013, 06:53 AM

This has been a very informitative thread for me. The Cau Sau detour helps add dimension to the issue of wu sau positioning.

The relevance of kau sau to your discussion of wu sau was that, yes, like a wu sau you can position other techniques to encourage certain lines of attack. I offered up jum/tan/upper gang sau shape as a shape that can, like a wu sau, be strategically positioned. The kau sau is just one of the shapes I like to use once someone has taken the bait.

If you want, happy tiger, I will do a youtube clip to show you what I mean (it will be a private video and not posted in this thread).

wingchunIan

01-26-2013, 11:01 AM

I explained earlier in the discusion on the action in the MYJ form that because the dummy arm is wooden and immovable, the action is modified into a short hyun-sau, whereas it would start with the wrist circle and then draw with the elbow into a fuller gaang-sau. The stiffer the opponent is with their force, the more it will spin them out of their stance. That's all the better. It's powerful enough because it's using waist power through the elbow. So I don't see that as a problem that should be solved by raising the elbow, much weaker.
As so many on here are fond of saying, try it for real against a strike from a reasonably powerful partner with the strike angled slightly upwards or with a contact point well past the partner's wrist. Huen sao is a good tool but like all tools it has its limitations. kau sao is another tool that achieves similar results when huen sao won't work.

Not quite sure how that'd work. The hip power in bong-sau works because of the forward energy, rooting and structure, from the ground up. Turning it into a hooking action drawing away with the elbow up would engage the triceps/shoulder, from the hand back, even if the action is initiated by the waist, and wouldn't have the same effect of spinning the opponent as from the power of drawing with the elbow down.

Rather than on a dummy, I'd like to see the effect this kau-sau has on a live person.
Not sure what you are thinking of with hooking? The only hook is the way that the heel of the palm latches onto the opponent's limb. The triceps are not recruited in the movement at all, the arm is held still and the rotation comes from the lower body and waist. The drawing backwards action originates because as the body turns the hip moves backwards and by virtue of the skeleton so does the shoulder and hence the arm

LFJ

01-27-2013, 06:02 AM

As so many on here are fond of saying, try it for real against a strike from a reasonably powerful partner with the strike angled slightly upwards or with a contact point well past the partner's wrist.

The closer to the opponent's elbow the more it effects their core even if they have a relaxed forearm, and more force from them just makes them stiff and easier to manipulate through their elbow and it accelerates the spin on them.

Not sure what you are thinking of with hooking? The only hook is the way that the heel of the palm latches onto the opponent's limb. The triceps are not recruited in the movement at all, the arm is held still and the rotation comes from the lower body and waist. The drawing backwards action originates because as the body turns the hip moves backwards and by virtue of the skeleton so does the shoulder and hence the arm

Latching on and rotating the body is a hook and pull even if the rotation comes from the waist. How do you think the arm is held still if not by the muscular strength? Latching the palm heel on the limb the hook wouldn't hold if the muscle is not activated.

But we don't do this anyhow. The action as I do it has the wrist circle to guide the energy. It doesn't latch on and pull away laterally. It's rather a rolling action starting from up to down and out that sweeps the limb away by drawing with the elbow in one swift motion, pivoting to immediately strike off the other jam-sau.

Paddington

01-27-2013, 07:06 AM

LFJ, as I commented and suggested in the other thread, kau sau can be used several ways. I could even have my contact more with the palm so that I can guide the opponents energy away, much like you do with the huyn.

I might choose to have slight contact and just cover the arm as I use a larger step to complete moving to a different gate. You know, there is some structure to the kau sau shape and muscle is not overly used. I would say no more muscle is used than some of the other techniques that I know you accept as 'wing chun'.

k gledhill

01-27-2013, 07:12 AM

The closer to the opponent's elbow the more it effects their core even if they have a relaxed forearm, and more force from them just makes them stiff and easier to manipulate through their elbow and it accelerates the spin on them.

Latching on and rotating the body is a hook and pull even if the rotation comes from the waist. How do you think the arm is held still if not by the muscular strength? Latching the palm heel on the limb the hook wouldn't hold if the muscle is not activated.

But we don't do this anyhow. The action as I do it has the wrist circle to guide the energy. It doesn't latch on and pull away laterally. It's rather a rolling action starting from up to down and out that sweeps the limb away by drawing with the elbow in one swift motion, pivoting to immediately strike off the other jam-sau.

There are more underlying errors in Ian's ideas than he is aware of.

Paddington

01-27-2013, 07:18 AM

There are more underlying errors in Ian's ideas than he is aware of.

LFJ posted something that is not entirely the case. I tried to correct him in the above post.

LFJ

01-27-2013, 07:23 AM

You know, there is some structure to the kau sau shape and muscle is not overly used. I would say no more muscle is used than some of the other techniques that I know you accept as 'wing chun'.

My point is what muscles are used and in what way. For me, this action is all about the elbow and waist power. No arm pulling.

k gledhill

01-27-2013, 07:27 AM

wingchunIan

01-27-2013, 07:39 AM

There are more underlying errors in Ian's ideas than he is aware of.

Of course there are Kevin, but being the supreme font of all knowledge I'm sure you could enlighten me and everyone else?
My ideas on kau sao align with Paddington's and with those of the people I have learnt from, they are based upon how the technique has worked for me, my seniors and my students. I have tested what I have been taught but am always keen to improve so please do pray tell what are those underlying errors?

Happy Tiger

01-27-2013, 11:08 AM

If you offer a 'draw' by opening certain 'gates' you must accept the threat this ploy involves. VT can be composed many ways but when there is excess there must also be wain. If you walk my side of the street with this 'standard' ving tsun positioning I'll be ready. Your half way to a pin already,If Im faster....you're screwed.
Why no cau sau? Really? Cau sau; the combining of rotating Tan/ Jom sau and huen. collects shoots. In memory the only time I ever used cau sao was in a security situation where I gathered the opponents tools to one gate so application of 'cuffs' was possible. Don't believe in cau sau..????.all the better for me.

Happy Tiger

02-03-2013, 11:34 AM

If by 'we' you mean this sub-forum then you are mistaken as not everyone here practices your lineage, WSLVT. I am pretty sure this forum did not have the WSLVT name on the door when I walked in.

TBH, quite a few of you block discussions in an act of what I can only describe as territorial p***ing, much like dogs do. Reading post histories I have yet to decide if play ground bullies is the best way to describe some of you.

Either way, if you know what I am talking about, and one of you did as you had experience down the ip chun lineage, you can still discuss what you think are the flaws with the shape and the usages I discuss. It is, after all, a discussion board. Why is such a shape and usage not used in your lineage?
EDIT: If that picture, Happy Tiger, was just to trick me then fair enough. Still, I see a kau sau there in part shape, hard to see energy direction in a static image. If this is the case you are just reinforcing my view about the adolescent nature of some of you.Hey Paddington !I just read this 'edit now. I totally was not 'juiceing ' you. Except for one bit of a freak out on Hendrik, which I regret I don't play that way.I've been in this game long enough to know what works for me and basically respect others views even if they differ from my own. I may find use for VT that others don't because of the scope of my use of martial technology. As a fighter like any one what works for me works for me.I get a kick out of these 'heavy weights telling each other their stuff is short.

Paddington

02-03-2013, 02:28 PM

No problem Happy Tiger! Sorry to accuse you!

Yoshiyahu

02-05-2013, 03:15 PM

ARE you saying your normal wu sau is basically where you left foot is forward and your left arm (wu/mun) is out above your knee while you back wu sau is at your elbow...

offside would be you meeting/leading hand (wu/mun) would be on the same side as your back foot. While our lead foot is on the opposite side...

In short

Normal: Lead Foot Left Side, Lead Hand(wu/mun) Left side

Offside: Lead Foot Left Side, Lead Hand(wu/mun) Right side

{The Reverse of the offside is applicable too}

Baiscally the Normal way is to give your opponent distance from your centerline. The Offside way is to draw them in to your centerline so you can force them bridge by overcommitting. any way if the way i explained it makes any sense let me know...it was a tactic i adopted for bigger opponents.

Recently, There was a mysteriously vanishing thread featuring an interview where, an idea of keeping wu sau off side as a neutral or default position was presented as standard to the course. Meaning, that the wu sau and possibly mun sau are typically on one side of the line...'drawing' or encouraging attackes to come in through available gates. Narrowing access and response. Giving one an advantage of 'drawing'. Is this standard VT???

LFJ

02-05-2013, 06:02 PM

k gledhill

02-05-2013, 06:50 PM

Yoshiyahu

02-06-2013, 03:10 PM

@Yoshiyahu

The idea is presented in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODmA3MsS9kU

It's holding the wu-sau near the inside shoulder, rather than on the center, reducing the opponent's options and facilitating interception.

OOh i disagree then....

I can see doing it for training to make you faster maybe...but not realistic in sparring.

If your hands are all on one side...then Im not going to attack straight either imma hit your open gate...since its wide open why go to the center when i can hit you with a Hook?

Happy Tiger

02-06-2013, 03:56 PM

No problem Happy Tiger! Sorry to accuse you!
But I do have an adolesent nature, none the less. :)

Vajramusti

02-06-2013, 04:02 PM

@Yoshiyahu

The idea is presented in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODmA3MsS9kU

It's holding the wu-sau near the inside shoulder, rather than on the center, reducing the opponent's options and facilitating interception.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A comment on appearance.
Looks like a jerky imitation of wsl.

LFJ

02-06-2013, 10:15 PM

OOh i disagree then....

I can see doing it for training to make you faster maybe...but not realistic in sparring.

If your hands are all on one side...then Im not going to attack straight either imma hit your open gate...since its wide open why go to the center when i can hit you with a Hook?

Who says you can? It's not really "open" but a baiting guard and you're taking the bait, throwing a slower attack opening your center. :D Looks like it works on you.

Yoshiyahu

02-07-2013, 02:48 PM

Who says you can? It's not really "open" but a baiting guard and you're taking the bait, throwing a slower attack opening your center. :D Looks like it works on you.

Okay well imo that will slow down your WC...For chi Sau maybe or drill...But when fighting I want my centerline covered. So my opponent doesn't have that many options. A round punch will be more powerful but not as quick as a straight punch...With my gaurds obstructing the centerline it makes it hard for him to throw a head on jab...If i continue facing him he has no choice but to circle and go for the outside gate...The fastest route from point A to B is a straight line...So I will destroy his circle while he is movement to get a gate...

LFJ

02-07-2013, 05:57 PM

Okay well imo that will slow down your WC...

How?

But when fighting I want my centerline covered. So my opponent doesn't have that many options.

Your opponent would have more options, striking on either side of your guard, rather than only one. That's the point of this guard, to reduce their options making it predictable and more easily intercepted.

A round punch will be more powerful but not as quick as a straight punch...With my gaurds obstructing the centerline it makes it hard for him to throw a head on jab...

A straight punch should be the easiest thing to deal with in WC.

If i continue facing him he has no choice but to circle and go for the outside gate...

People you spar/fight only throw round punches at you? A straight punch can also come from the outside, or can blast through the center.

With the wu-sau off center the opponent will only come down one side, and your response will be to intercept punching to the center.

Happy Tiger

02-07-2013, 05:59 PM

This stratagy can work if the conditions are right but giving up your right of center arbitrarily is a gambit. Not a sure thing. I can see this perhaps being a default for some that cannot react equally left or right, which includes many. Personally I can react exactly the same either side. With my center covered flexibly but firmly, dispite each side a possible entry, to me there is only one choice. Upper middle and lower gate is the same. They must go round and take the time and upset to embark. Jeet with this structure is automatic with little or no movement commitment or finess. Like a cow catcher it works without mechanics, stratagy or intricate function. Beautiful and totally VT.

wingchunIan

02-08-2013, 01:45 AM

With the wu-sau off center the opponent will only come down one side, and your response will be to intercept punching to the center.

IMO this is dangerous thinking possibly borne of only training against attacks that come in straight lines. Given the human anatomy you can either cover left, cover right or cover centre. If you push both of your hands so far to one side (and it has to be both hands) that you can prevent attacks from that side including angled shots and hooks then you will by default have exposed not just the other side but also the centre. Holding wu sao as per the original post does nothing to prevent a hook coming outside of the none wu sao arm and so does not preclude attack to that side. It does however make it nigh on impossible to defend any type of hook coming in from the wu sao side due to teh distance needed to be covered. It is of course each to their own but FME the benefit of covering the centre is that it precludes faster straight line shots and allows the full perimeter of the body to be covered using very small movements with either arm. It is the fact that the movements are small that makes it possible to cover the space and avoids the need to chase arms leaving gaps for subsequent shots.

LFJ

02-08-2013, 02:37 AM

If you push both of your hands so far to one side (and it has to be both hands) that you can prevent attacks from that side including angled shots and hooks then you will by default have exposed not just the other side but also the centre.

The strategy of a baiting guard.

Holding wu sao as per the original post does nothing to prevent a hook coming outside of the none wu sao arm and so does not preclude attack to that side.

Easily dealt with.

It does however make it nigh on impossible to defend any type of hook coming in from the wu sao side due to teh distance needed to be covered.

Why? What is your response to hooks, catching them?

It is the fact that the movements are small that makes it possible to cover the space and avoids the need to chase arms leaving gaps for subsequent shots.

There is never a need to chase arms. The baiting guard intercepts with straight line attacks cutting the opponent's way.

I wonder if you have tested this guard or you're just imagining what it may be like. It must go hand-in-hand with correct attack lines though. If your fighting strategy differs it's likely to not work, but that's more due to the strategy than the guard.

Graham H

02-08-2013, 03:07 AM

LFJ that type of thinking is not in any of the Ip's systems of Kung Fu. Ian has not been exposed to it so won't understand it.

GlennR

02-08-2013, 05:22 AM

LFJ that type of thinking is not in any of the Ip's systems of Kung Fu. Ian has not been exposed to it so won't understand it.

What's there to understand.

If you guard from one side, you attack from one side.

The technique ( its not a concept) is a trade off.

Graham H

02-08-2013, 05:33 AM

What's there to understand.

If you guard from one side, you attack from one side.

The technique ( its not a concept) is a trade off.

Not entirely true Glenn. How you attack is dictated by the attacker in most cases and this "concept" also allows you to change to the other side in one action whereby if the wu sau and man sau are incorrect it does not.

It's better to describe actions as concepts because there is no set application.

I find it bizarre that Ving Tsun is generally marketed as a system of simple concepts and principles yet most have to attach applications to all the actions in the forms in which case it ceases to remain simple.

Happy Tiger

02-08-2013, 10:16 AM

Not entirely true Glenn. How you attack is dictated by the attacker in most cases and this "concept" also allows you to change to the other side in one action whereby if the wu sau and man sau are incorrect it does not.

It's better to describe actions as concepts because there is no set application.

I find it bizarre that Ving Tsun is generally marketed as a system of simple concepts and principles yet most have to attach applications to all the actions in the forms in which case it ceases to remain simple.yup.That's the way I see it,too. Deception is a cornerstone on combat but if ignorant will backfire disasterously

JPinAZ

02-08-2013, 10:39 AM

I find it bizarre that Ving Tsun is generally marketed as a system of simple concepts and principles yet most have to attach applications to all the actions in the forms in which case it ceases to remain simple.

Exactly, yet you get people mucking it up and overcomplicating it all the time!
This whole "setting up off center and baiting someone so you can get into a chasing hands game" is a perfect case of this and shows a total lack of understanding for wing chun's most basic and primary concepts - Wing Chun Centerline.
And this is probably why you don't see it anywhere else in wig chun except one single sub-lineage. :rolleyes:

Happy Tiger

02-08-2013, 11:18 AM

Exactly, yet you get people mucking it up and overcomplicating it all the time!
This whole "setting up off center and baiting someone so you can get into a chasing hands game" is a perfect case of this and shows a total lack of understanding for wing chun's most basic and primary concepts - Wing Chun Centerline.
And this is probably why you don't see it anywhere else in wig chun except one single sub-lineage. :rolleyes:
True. Not all WSL people do this without context

Happy Tiger

02-08-2013, 01:52 PM

Gasp!!!! I suddenlly realised!!!This is the 'secret' technique of VT!!!!! THIS is the 'five finger death heart exploding technique' only taught to the 'elite' privilaged master students of VT. The technique held back from all but a few that erzats all established VT beliefs. Woah!!!! If I ever start teaching I'm gonna charge 499.95 HK dollars for it.:):):):):)

LFJ

02-08-2013, 10:00 PM

This whole "setting up off center and baiting someone so you can get into a chasing hands game" is a perfect case of this and shows a total lack of understanding for wing chun's most basic and primary concepts - Wing Chun Centerline.

A complete misunderstanding of basic strategy. This guard serves only to facilitate the strategy which is "cutting the way". There is no hand chasing whatsoever. The response is cutting down the center line with a straight line attack. We don't care about the hands, and this guard is making it so that we need care even less.

I guess Graham is right, if you have no conception of "cutting the way" then this can turn into chasing hands, but probably because you chase hands anyway without realizing it.

LFJ

02-08-2013, 10:19 PM

In another video he talks about "chase the center, don't chase hands", yet this is his strategy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnRZzuQAmG8

He shifts to move out of the way and block. This is being afraid of the hands and chasing them to the side trying not to get hit.

In contrast, gaang-sau as we do it must be directed at the opponent's mass, not to the side at their arms. The jam-sau arm "cuts the way" down the center to hit the opponent in one beat. That's "chasing the center". Kwan-sau must also be driven to affect their core, not bat their arms.

But here, he turns and blocks with his hands going sideways away from the opponent, "chasing the hands". He will need another step to attack, but by then he'll have to chase the other hand. Yet he talks about "don't chase hands" in another clip, not realizing that his whole approach is exactly that!

So sure, given a strategy like this, the baiting guard is going to be useless because you're still chasing hands. Our target is always the person, not their arms. Narrowing their lines of attack to mainly one side means we need care even less about their arms and carry on hitting them.

Happy Tiger

02-08-2013, 10:33 PM

A complete misunderstanding of basic strategy. This guard serves only to facilitate the strategy which is "cutting the way". There is no hand chasing whatsoever. The response is cutting down the center line with a straight line attack. We don't care about the hands, and this guard is making it so that we need care even less.

I guess Graham is right, if you have no conception of "cutting the way" then this can turn into chasing hands, but probably because you chase hands anyway without realizing it.
I would like to see two VT ers attempting this arbitrary tactic on one another at the same time....to circus music

LFJ

02-08-2013, 10:39 PM

Arbitrary tactic?

Happy Tiger

02-08-2013, 10:54 PM

Arbitrary tactic?

At least for me it isn't whether this idea cannot work under certain conditions but that it is used as a standard tactic .That's where I have a problem with it.

k gledhill

02-09-2013, 11:30 AM

If you look at things one at a time, you might not realize that a branch of separate "trees" go together to make a "forest". Classic not seeing the forest for the trees here, focusing on details of one aspect and losing the whole picture...;)

BPWT

02-10-2013, 04:22 AM

In another video he talks about "chase the center, don't chase hands", yet this is his strategy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnRZzuQAmG8
He shifts to move out of the way and block. This is being afraid of the hands and chasing them to the side trying not to get hit.

In this video Leung Ting is stressing the importance of moving off the line of attack. In his system you almost always* have hand shapes and motions (tan, jam, garn, etc, etc) that should be cleaving/slicing towards the opponent's center, while your body usually will be moving off the line.

Very hard to see this when something is demo'd in the air. But in person, you can feel this force, which is driven from the elbow, regardless of the position of the hand.

The degree to which LT WT guys shift off the line is probably one of the things that differs the most from other YM lineages. That said, there are more commonalities than differences.

* almost always as there is always an exception to the rule, particularly if you find yourself with bad/late timing. And, of course, there are some tactical reasons too. Here LT is demonstrating Wooden Dummy work, which for us has a few different concepts too ;)

So basically speaking, Kwan Sao for us is also about cleaving to the opponent's center (and this means forward force with the dai bong sao too). We don't want to chase the hands, but we also want to maintain stick when needed, even when we have center and exploit it. E.g. If I take center and strike you with a straight punch but you were able to get off a hook, let's say, this is a 'no win' situation for both of us (I hit you and you hit me too).

I need to take the line of attack, strike and control. But again, this is hardly unique to the LT WT system - most lineages work the same idea.

Here's an example of a clown who chases hands without even knowing it.

C'mon. Does it really further your point to call Leung Ting a clown? :confused:

Maybe I talk online with a WSL guy and conclude that we both do things a little differently... you don't see me insulting WSL.

LFJ

02-10-2013, 04:52 AM

In this video Leung Ting is stressing the importance of moving off the line of attack. In his system you almost always* have hand shapes and motions (tan, jam, garn, etc, etc) that should be cleaving/slicing towards the opponent's center, while your body usually will be moving off the line.

Very hard to see this when something is demo'd in the air. But in person, you can feel this force, which is driven from the elbow, regardless of the position of the hand.

It's not difficult to see that the direction of his arms are sideways and not "cleaving toward the opponent's center". His shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent anyway...

I don't know a video of him doing it on a person, but here he goes on the dummy. Each time he does gaang-sau or kwan-sau you can see the sideways effect on the dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWBPjQEJCmU

C'mon. Does it really further your point to call Leung Ting a clown? :confused:

He gets to call people idiots to further his point and I can't call him a clown? You're a clown. :rolleyes:

BPWT

02-10-2013, 05:08 AM

It's not difficult to see that the direction of his arms are sideways and not "cleaving toward the opponent's center". His shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent anyway... I don't know a video of him doing it on a person, but here he goes on the dummy. Each time he does gaang-sau or kwan-sau you can see the sideways effect on the dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWBPjQEJCmU

Yes, his shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent - away from the line of force. Horses for courses. You see this is wrong, I don't see it as wrong at all.

Looking at the dummy clip, I am not seeing what you see at all. But this is largely accountable to feeling - I have felt this in application from our line. Again, horses for courses. If you do things differently, that is interesting. The point of forums is to talk, to share. Doesn't need to be a p*ssing contest. (or does it?)

He gets to call people idiots to further his point and I can't call him a clown?

I never heard him call WSL an idiot. If he did, well, that would be rather silly of him. Of course, he has on many occasions said other Wing Chun methods are wrong from his perspective and from the way his art is performed. But even if he called the whole world idiots, you'd feel the need to go there too?

You're a clown. :rolleyes:
Nice. Really mature. :confused:

LFJ

02-10-2013, 05:34 AM

Yes, his shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent - away from the line of force. Horses for courses. You see this is wrong, I don't see it as wrong at all.

Moving away from the opponent, they can't hit him, but he can't hit them either. He's chasing hands, not attacking their center.

If you do things differently, that is interesting. The point of forums is to talk, to share.

This topic is about the baiting guard and my comment is how it must work with the proper strategy of "cutting the way". As I said, if your strategy is different it likely won't work, but that's likely because you're chasing hands without knowing it, much like Leung Ting.

I never heard him call WSL an idiot. If he did, well, that would be rather silly of him. Of course, he has on many occasions said other Wing Chun methods are wrong from his perspective and from the way his art is performed. But even if he called the whole world idiots, you'd feel the need to go there too?

Didn't say he was talking about WSL, he did call others who do it differently idiots in the video though, but why do you feel the need to parent my speech? Ignore it if you don't like it.

I called him a clown anyway because he speaks of not chasing hands but does it himself. He's an example of someone who couldn't make the baiting guard work because his strategy is chasing hands not attacking center.

With the proper strategy, the baiting guard facilitates interception and "cutting the way". Unlike others who are imagining what pitfalls it may have, I've tried it. It's not exactly as comfortable as what I'm used to doing, but it does what it's supposed to do.

BPWT

02-10-2013, 05:54 AM

Moving away from the opponent, they can't hit him, but he can't hit them either. He's chasing hands, not attacking their center.

Not moving away from the opponent - away from the line. Whenever I perform kwan sao, for example, I move away from the line but I remain in striking range (without need for a step, though I do want to step in if the option is there).

... but that's likely because you're chasing hands without knowing it, much like Leung Ting.

Other than meeting with you to show how the force comes forward from the elbow, I don't see how I can explain that there is no hand chasing as I understand it. There is bridging with forward force. Have you ever chi sao'd with someone from the LT WT line (I am not talking about the EWTO)?

Did you feel they were chasing hands? Or did you feel constant forward pressure that was always trying to take center?

... but why do you feel the need to parent my speech? Ignore it if you don't like it.

Of course I can ignore it. But then we're no longer talking and no longer exchanging info and ideas. I'm simply saying you can disagree with me all you want, but why does it need to include insults to me, or insults to Leung Ting? It's childish.

LFJ

02-10-2013, 06:35 AM

Yes, his shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent - away from the line of force.

Not moving away from the opponent - away from the line.

Whenever I perform kwan sao, for example, I move away from the line but I remain in striking range (without need for a step, though I do want to step in if the option is there).

Say what you mean, huh? Either way, you're moving away. You're not attacking. You're only dealing with the opponent's hands. You'll need another step to attack them.

Other than meeting with you to show how the force comes forward from the elbow, I don't see how I can explain that there is no hand chasing as I understand it. There is bridging with forward force.

Perhaps you don't understand it then, much like Leung Ting. You move away and bridge. Albeit with "forward force", that's chasing hands.

BPWT

02-10-2013, 06:59 AM

Say what you mean, huh? Either way, you're moving away. You're not attacking. You're only dealing with the opponent's hands. You'll need another step to attack them. Perhaps you don't understand it then, much like Leung Ting. You move away and bridge. Albeit with "forward force", that's chasing hands.

I mean that you shift and move your center away from the line of attack/force from your opponent. The distance at that point (between your body and theirs) has still been closed - so I mean I am not physically moving away my whole body from the opponent and increasing the distance between us. That would only happen if, instead of shifting, I actively stepped away from the opponent's attack with the intention of keeping distance between us. I want to close the distance, not extend it. Kwan sao, for example, is not extending distance.

When you say "you're moving away, you're not attacking. You're only dealing with the opponent's hands," this is correct and incorrect as I see it.

Yes, I am shifting away from the force and yes, I am at that point not kicking, punching etc so in the most obvious sense I am not attacking. But my hands are bridging and because of this forward force towards the opponent's center I am not chasing the hands, but chasing the center - this is an attack.

We all at some point engage the hands - that's why our systems have tan and bong and fook and jut etc, etc. But if I use tan, as described above, and the line to the center is open the tan will become a punch. Or to put it another way, with the example of kwan sao... you grab and pull my man sao - I convert it to dai bong (keeping forward pressure) and as you pulled down the man sao, I punched you with other hand that was in wu - but you punched too and you had the better line of attack, so my punch becomes tan as I shift my weight to regain the line (again keeping forward pressure). This kwan movement is not just rotation on a fixed point - it is pushing forward.

Even the hand in dai bong has this forward force. It is not chasing the hand that pulled it.. it is pressuring to get to the center of the opponent - which it will, if they release from their pulling motion badly.

If all of this (closing distance, taking center, bridging with forward force towards the opponent's center) means that I am chasing hands in your definition, then yes... okay, I am chasing hands.

It really is quite hard to describe some of these things. When you chi sao'd with someone from the LT WT line outside of the EWTO, what was your experience? Did you feel the forward pressure I am trying to describe, in relation to how they used the bridging?

Genuine question - I want to try and understand what you felt when you were chi sao'ing with them.

BPWT

02-10-2013, 07:34 AM

I don't know a video of him doing it on a person, but here he goes on the dummy. Each time he does gaang-sau or kwan-sau you can see the sideways effect on the dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWBPjQEJCmU

All this typing from me, and I still don't know if I am explaining it well. But the dummy clip highlights what I am saying.

The movement of the dummy is back and sideways. Why? Because the force is forward, but the point of engagement is (naturally) on the side of the dummy's arms. Leung Ting's kwan sao makes contact with the side of the dummy's arms, but his force is forwards - so the dummy rocks back and to the side.

BPWT

02-10-2013, 07:36 AM

The same things happens here, with WSL on the dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4rDLWIddaU

WSL engages the side of the dummy's arms - but his force is forward, yes? Or would you say he is chasing hands?

LFJ

02-10-2013, 07:45 AM

I mean that you shift and move your center away from the line of attack/force from your opponent. The distance at that point has still been closed - so I mean I am not physically moving away from the opponent and increasing the distance between us.

Shift on the balls of your feet like Leung Ting and you are physically moving away from the opponent. The opponent is directly in front of you and you shift away to the side. That neither brings you closer nor keeps in in place.

Here's how and why we shift on the heels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--wgG_TsHIQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

It really is quite hard to describe some of these things. When you chi sao'd with someone from the LT WT line outside of the EWTO, what was your experience?

I couldn't tell you the difference between organizations, but as I've experienced, they are hand-chasers who try running circles around their opponents. They have no conception of "cutting the way", as in the above video.

LFJ

02-10-2013, 07:53 AM

The movement of the dummy is back and sideways. Why? Because the force is forward, but the point of engagement is (naturally) on the side of the dummy's arms. Leung Ting's kwan sao makes contact with the side of the dummy's arms, but his force is forwards - so the dummy rocks back and to the side.

Where do you see it moving backward on either gaang-sau or kwan-sau?

You can also look at the direction of his jam-sau arm/hand. It is going completely sideways, to block (chase hands), whereas WSL's is directed straight at the dummy. His hand almost touches the dummy where the "head" would be, because it's cutting the opponent's way with a strike, not blocking their hands away.

LFJ

02-10-2013, 08:00 AM

Chasing hands is shown clearly by Leung Ting here at :16. "Don't cut the jam-sau forward into the opponent, but swat their hand away to the side." Watch where that hand goes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnRZzuQAmG8

BPWT

02-10-2013, 08:06 AM

Shift on the balls of your feet like Leung Ting and you are physically moving away from the opponent. The opponent is directly in front of you and you shift away to the side. That neither brings you closer nor keeps in in place.

Here's how and why we shift on the heels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--wgG_TsHIQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Well, there in lies the confusion. When you see WSL demo the ball-of-the-foot pivot (1.12 in the clip), he is pivoting when we wouldn't do so.

In the first instance, the initial positioning is strange as he is in a position already turned (that's fair enough, I guess), but our legs wouldn't be in that position from our turn.

But if I was in that position, however, I would not pivot and punch from here, I would step in and punch (but I understand this is not how things would work in the WSL line, as Kevin G pointed out in a previous post that you don't utilize stepping into the opponent's stance in this way).

A minor point, but the point for turning (for us) is the K1 point, not the ball of the foot.

The reason we turn is to re-angle and help off-load force - this is usually when someone is themselves stepping in. They are closing the distance even more, and so with a turn (even on the k1 point), we are not out of reach. I have never punched the air when trying to punch someone's head :) as WSL showed us. That is because with the opponent coming in (here the demo partner was not coming in, he was stationary) I am not moving my whole body away - I am shifting my torso away from the line of attack - the opponent is still going to be really close.

My shift - the amount I turn, is always in relation to a) the amount of force coming in, b) the position of the opponent's body.

There are active turns and passive turns. When my opponent attacks and I turn/shift, it is the opponent who creates my turn (via the force and direction of the attack). It is p
There are active turns and passive turns. When my opponent attacks and I turn/shift, it is the opponent who creates my turn (via the force and direction of the attack).passive - it is only active when I attack.

WSL is also demo'ing this by shifting from one side all the way to the other. This type of shift does/could have a place in training, but never in this scenario. The distances are all wrong - there would be no need - and a step in is required.

I couldn't tell you the difference between organizations, but as I've experienced, they are hand-chasers who try running circles around their opponents. They have no conception of "cutting the way", as in the above video.

So you have never chi sao'd with someone from LT WT out of Hong Kong?

BPWT

02-10-2013, 08:23 AM

Where do you see it moving backward on either gaang-sau or kwan-sau? You can also look at the direction of his jam-sau arm/hand. It is going completely sideways, to block (chase hands)

If you can't see what I am saying, I just don't know how to explain it further.

Chasing hands is shown clearly by Leung Ting here at :16. "Don't cut the jam-sau forward into the opponent, but swat their hand away to the side." Watch where that hand goes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnRZzuQAmG8

He is demo'ing something in the air! There are no arms to chase, and most importantly no body behind those arms - the center is the key.

Again, if you can't see what I am saying, then I am sure I am not explaining it very well.

I would suggest, however, that if you can get to a LT WT guy who has had training in HK or Eastern Europe, you would better understand what I am trying (and failing) to explain. Otherwise you're basing your thoughts on something you are not feeling.

LFJ

02-10-2013, 08:29 AM

Doesn't really matter how exactly Leung Ting is shifting, the point is he's moving his entire body away and swatting sideways at the hands as he clearly shows in the video. That's hand chasing, pure and simple.

The only reason to bring him up here is to say the guard, which is the topic of this thread, won't work for someone who uses such a strategy. But that's more the fault of the strategy than the guard. It must be used with the proper strategy, cutting the way, and it will be quite effective.

LFJ

02-10-2013, 08:34 AM

He is demo'ing something in the air! There are no arms to chase, and most importantly no body behind those arms - the center is the key.

Yet anyone can see his hands are swatting sideways and not forward at all.

I would suggest, however, that if you can get to a LT WT guy who has had training in HK or Eastern Europe, you would better understand what I am trying (and failing) to explain. Otherwise you're basing your thoughts on something you are not feeling.

Just did that a few days ago. All needless circling, evasion, and hand chasing.