Wing Chun use of Fook Sao/u

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFSdTi95OTE

[k gledhill]

The angles you use are wrong, you are getting away with it because the guy stops and doesnt follow in ...

[Graham H]

Complete nonsense :eek:

[GlennR]

Complete nonsense :eek:

Yep... utter nonsense!!

What he should be doing is showing his unmatched chi-sao skills, with compliant students, on endless youtube clips!!

Oh, too late.... someone has already done that

[Phil Redmond]

The angles you use are wrong, you are getting away with it because the guy stops and doesnt follow in ...
My angles are correct for my Wing Chun.

[Phil Redmond]

Yep... utter nonsense!!

What he should be doing is showing his unmatched chi-sao skills, with compliant students, on endless youtube clips!!

Oh, too late.... someone has already done that
My teachings are based on my having competed many times so I do know what will work against a resisting opponent. Btw, I'm demonstrating in those clips for my for students. What you think doesn't really matter to me. I train fighters even now. And I can still fight with what I teach. Who ever said I had unmatched chi sao skills? You made that up on your own. LOL

[Phil Redmond]

The angles you use are wrong, you are getting away with it because the guy stops and doesnt follow in ... I got away with it when I fought CLF guys. ;-) When I'm in NY I can demonstrate it on you and you really try to hit me. I should be back in April. I'll let you know when in advance when I'll be there.

[Graham H]

I got away with it when I fought CLF guys. ;-) When I'm in NY I can demonstrate it on you and you really try to hit me. I should be back in April. I'll let you know when in advance when I'll be there.

Shame I'm not in NYC because you wouldn't get away with that circling fook sau/ huen sau nonsense on me Phil. :p

[LFJ]

I like some of your stuff, but that's not even a fuk-sau as I know it, although it has the hand shape from SNT. Fuk-sau is a suppressing energy concept, not a hook shape or technique.

The response doesn't seem very direct or efficient to me. It's 4 things in response to a single punch, on the wrong side, and trying to get to the outside of a round attack for no practical reason. There's jat, hyun, paak + che-jeung. It should be over with the jat against any live opponent.

First of all, you do a jat-sau on the inside of the opposite arm and that's not going to jerk their second punch straight into you before you can do the rest? Who's gonna stand there like that and let you circle their hand around, step out, slap it away and hit them?

We have a somewhat similar hyun/jam action in the dummy form we were just discussing on the Wu-sau thread, keeping the elbow down and all that partially for the reason you were explaining... but it's a recovery from being on the wrong side if we even end up there, which we shouldn't. And the hyun-sau spins them and the jam-sau is the strike right away, in one beat. There's no time for 4 things against a single punch. The jat-sau + che-jeung that sometimes follows in the dummy form may be a second response if they raise that arm again, but really none of it is a set sequence with 4 things in response to a single punch as you do.

Not only do you intentionally go to the wrong side, but you do it with a jat-sau and then follow up with 3 more things as if the jat-sau has no effect, where likely it'll help pull them in as they keep coming with the second punch and more.

Why? You do anything to get to the blind side, even it means trying to get to the outside of a round punch? The jat-sau should be all you can get out of that and it's helping the opponent more than anything.

[Graham H]

Fuk-sau is a suppressing energy concept,.

I agree on the whole but explain suppressing energy concept??

[LFJ]

Let's do some image snapping. :p

Is this not the image in the Wing Chun Dictionary entry for "Chasing Hands"?

I wouldn't want to find myself in such a position, especially not intentionally thinking it is good and I'm gonna pull off a few more moves before the next hand comes.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture_zpsbd4149b8.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture-1_zps6e84514d.png

[LFJ]

I agree on the whole but explain suppressing energy concept??

Think of how we use the jam-sau/ punch suppressing the opponent's arm to cut the line. Elbow. That's the fuk-sau concept as I know it, anyway. Suppressing energy is my translation/interpretation.

[GlennR]

My teachings are based on my having competed many times so I do know what will work against a resisting opponent. Btw, I'm demonstrating in those clips for my for students. What you think doesn't really matter to me. I train fighters even now. And I can still fight with what I teach. Who ever said I had unmatched chi sao skills? You made that up on your own. LOL

Phil, i was being sarcastic and having a shot at Graham and Kevin

[Graham H]

Phil, i was being sarcastic and having a shot at Graham and Kevin

A cyber shot that is. You'd be in trouble if it was a proper one poppet! :p

[Graham H]

Think of how we use the jam-sau/ punch suppressing the opponent's arm to cut the line. Elbow. That's the fuk-sau concept as I know it, anyway. Suppressing energy is my translation/interpretation.

Ok I agree if that's your interpretation but suppressing to me assumes contact has been made. I know a lot of people use arm contact to explain fook sau. Its wrong IMO. The elbow position/punching action derived from the fook sau concept should be the same regardless of whether there are obstacles in the way or not. I don't like anything that suggests arms are glue together or contact has to be made for it to be Ving Tsun. Sticky Arms is a visual description and not that we should be stuck on arms in sparring.

[Graham H]

Let's do some image snapping. :p

Is this not the image in the Wing Chun Dictionary entry for "Chasing Hands"?

I wouldn't want to find myself in such a position, especially not intentionally thinking it is good and I'm gonna pull off a few more moves before the next hand comes.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture_zpsbd4149b8.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture-1_zps6e84514d.png

We try and train these mistakes away in our system and aspire to correct those errors.

[LFJ]

Ok I agree if that's your interpretation but suppressing to me assumes contact has been made. I know a lot of people use arm contact to explain fook sau. Its wrong IMO. The elbow position/punching action derived from the fook sau concept should be the same regardless of whether there are obstacles in the way or not.

Right. It is the same. I call it a suppressing energy because that is the effect when met with an obstacle, and the meaning of the word fuk is to subdue.

[Graham H]

Right. It is the same. I call it a suppressing energy because that is the effect when met with an obstacle, and the meaning of the word fuk is to subdue.

Gone are the days where I abide by the exact translations of Chinese into English. In Wing Chun, Fook/Fuk Sau seems to have many different translations even between Cantonese speakers.

I prefer to say the action of Fook Sau trains the elbow for the punch. Better for me that way.

Its the same for Bong and Tan. Most say Wing Arm and Palm up facing blocksc don't they? Some say spreading arm deflection or Bong being the bone that connects the elbow to the shoulder. There are many more from lineage to lineage. You can see why we have so many versions.

I say elbow rotation (Bong) and Tan trains the punch. Simples.

[LFJ]

I prefer to say the action of Fook Sau trains the elbow for the punch....

...and Tan trains the punch. Simples.

The problem with that is it makes fuk and taan sound like the same energy. They have different effects and are applied in different situations, sometimes to defeat the other. Different concepts require different interpretations, although in person there's of course one quick way to clarify. :p

[Graham H]

The problem with that is it makes fuk and taan sound like the same energy. They have different effects and are applied in different situations, sometimes to defeat the other. Different concepts require different interpretations, although in person there's of course one quick way to clarify. :p

No they have the same "energy". It's a f888ing punch! :D

One uses the outside of the arm to clear any obstacles and protect our center (Tan) and one uses the inside (Jum/Fook). Two punching concepts for the main weapon in Ving Tsun. The straight punch.

[Bacon]

We try and train these mistakes away in our system and aspire to correct those errors.

Unless you're chasing hands you'll never make those errors.

[Graham H]

Unless you're chasing hands you'll never make those errors.

Tiz very true ;)

[Graham H]

I want to stand up for you here from a Gung Fu perspective, Phil. I am not a WC practitioner and I have trained SLT with WC practitioners in the past. The technique you demonstrate comes right out of the beginning section of SLT. You make the key point that the arm does not move, the centerline does. In the training I do, this is called 'attack hands' or' 'clinging hands', and operates on a similar principle. I think what the other guys are talking about is that with 'pure' WC operation, they stay square to the opponent and use the 'springing' energy to use the technique rather than a 'guiding energy'.

The result of your operation is that you can maneuver from the inside to outside or outside to the inside of the opponents bridge, depending on where you want to attack the opponent. I would say well done. You have put something together that is a 'jeep' or 'all terrain vehicle' that can go anywhere at all times in the engagement. Thank you. All the best.
SKM

Another lamb for the slaughter! :confused::eek::rolleyes::)

[Paddington]

Please explain.

Well, it could be that some of these guys are overly masculine, what with all those testosterone and hormone supplements they take to keep their pecks pert so that when they beat their chests, all can hear!

Lets take post 2 for an example, you could always give you feedback more constructively and in a less rude and confrontational manner. I just cannot see you, k_gledhil, talking to a paying client you are training like that. I imagine you do know how to be polite and phrase criticisms in a soft manner.

In general I fear the Buddhist and Taoist aspects of WC, at least gauging by some people's conduct on these boards, are completely wasted on them.

[LFJ]

No they have the same "energy". It's a f888ing punch! :D

One uses the outside of the arm to clear any obstacles and protect our center (Tan) and one uses the inside (Jum/Fook). Two punching concepts for the main weapon in Ving Tsun. The straight punch.

Two punching concepts/energies, with spreading and suppressing effects. Hence the names. But sure...

[LFJ]

I just cannot see you, k_gledhil, talking to a paying client you are training like that.

A paying client wouldn't be telling people what the fuk-sau is. Phil is an instructor in his own right.


In general I fear the Buddhist and Taoist aspects of WC, at least gauging by some people's conduct on these boards, are completely wasted on them.

Wing Chun isn't a religion. :rolleyes:

[Paddington]

A paying client wouldn't be telling people what the fuk-sau is. Phil is an instructor in his own right.



Wing Chun isn't a religion. :rolleyes:

I didn't say it was a religion. I merely acknowledged and commented that Taoism and Buddhism have influenced the development of wing chun, and that includes ideas regarding etiquette and conduct in wing chun.

Just becasue Phil is teaching, that does not mean that it is OK to suddenly be rude and show poor etiquette and conduct.

[LFJ]

I didn't say it was a religion. I merely acknowledged and commented that Taoism and Buddhism have influenced the development of wing chun, and that includes ideas regarding etiquette and conduct in wing chun.

...which people may be inclined to follow if they are Buddhist or Taoist. The majority of folks are learning how to punch people while not being punched. Religion is a separate matter.


Just becasue Phil is teaching, that does not mean that it is OK to suddenly be rude and show poor etiquette and conduct.

Or, it gives more of a reason to point out the ridiculousness of the techniques he's teaching people, and likely charging a fee for, not just that he's practicing for himself.

[Paddington]

Or, it gives more of a reason to point out the ridiculousness of the techniques he's teaching people, and likely charging a fee for, not just that he's practicing for himself.

This is the thing with people such as yourself; becasue you are overly masculine-ised you are unable to view a discussion as something other than an arena in which there are winners and losers. Consequently you fail to be able to understand or read what a person has written.

At no point did I say that it is wrong to point out, from ones own perspective, why something is weak. I just stated that I think such feedback can be done in a polite and constructive way.

EDIT: I would much prefer these forums to be more active with many more interesting discussions. Unfortunately I see certain people's behavior and conduct as the reason why participation levels are low on these forums. You don't make these forums a nice place to be.

[LFJ]

@SKM - I explained in a good bit of detail what issue I take with the technique he taught in my first response. Go back and look.

@Paddington - I didn't find his response rude, just straightforward, but so be it. Besides, maybe we're wrong and Phil will show him that it actually works when he goes to NYC. :)

[k gledhill]

I got away with it when I fought CLF guys. ;-) When I'm in NY I can demonstrate it on you and you really try to hit me. I should be back in April. I'll let you know when in advance when I'll be there.

Cool, I will be in Colorado doing a seminar late in April, but look forward to hooking up again.

[LFJ]

I have to ask you, are you seriously going to jerk someone into you that is already coming at you full steam?

That's what I asked Phil. Of course I would never do this technique. Even if they weren't charging forward, I wouldn't cross myself and jat on the wrong side. It's just asking for the second punch.


I understand your premise for this, that you seek to do a timing disruption with the technique and then do a quick draw, hitting them before they hit you. Have you successfully used this technique in an engagement and does it work every time you do it on a stranger?

I'm not sure if you read my response or who's, but I would never do this technique. It's a big mistake in my view.


Now insofar as "four techniques", tell that to any Pa Kua or Hsing I practitioner who utilizes an-chi-lo-fan. Ask them if they are doing four techniques. They will tell you it is one technique. In similar vein, Phil does one technique. It can be broken down into different parts for teaching purposes but when it comes to application, it is one technique.

Call it what you want, it's not done in one beat. It's several actions in response to a single punch, neither simple, direct, nor efficient.


And of course he would want to get to the outside with a CLF practitioner because the opponent has just laterally crossed his center line setting him up for a checkmate.

The round punch never laterally crossed his center line. It was coming from the outside and Phil crossed himself to chase and catch the hand on the opposite/wrong side to move it and get to the opponent's blind side. It's trying too hard to get outside, doing something that puts him in a bad position at least, and at worst would be disastrous.

[k gledhill]

That's what I asked Phil. Of course I would never do this technique. Even if they weren't charging forward, I wouldn't cross myself and jat on the wrong side. It's just asking for the second punch.



I'm not sure if you read my response or who's, but I would never do this technique. It's a big mistake in my view.



Call it what you want, it's not done in one beat. It's several actions in response to a single punch, neither simple, direct, nor efficient.



The round punch never laterally crossed his center line. It was coming from the outside and Phil crossed himself to chase and catch the hand on the opposite/wrong side to move it and get to the opponent's blind side. It's trying too hard to get outside, doing something that puts him in a bad position at least, and at worst would be disastrous.

Agree, lets not forget that VT is designed and guided to fight ALL systems not one. If you are making such big angles inside a guy to engage an arm you're leaving yourself open. As a tactical idea ??

[Wayfaring]

Please explain.

Graham has an unhealthy attachment to sheep?

[Ali. R]

Graham has an unhealthy attachment to sheep?

That was very good.

LMAO,

[k gledhill]

This a sequence WSL showed to avoid, why I mentioned angles wrong and following punch...

[Phil Redmond]

Yep... utter nonsense!!

What he should be doing is showing his unmatched chi-sao skills, with compliant students, on endless youtube clips!!

Oh, too late.... someone has already done that

Where's this animosity coming from? We've never met and I've done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I've never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that's me. :-)

[Phil Redmond]

This a sequence WSL showed to avoid, why I mentioned angles wrong and following punch...
He's using centerline principles which is all good. I was using central line. There's a difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8

[k gledhill]

Let's do some image snapping. :p

Is this not the image in the Wing Chun Dictionary entry for "Chasing Hands"?

I wouldn't want to find myself in such a position, especially not intentionally thinking it is good and I'm gonna pull off a few more moves before the next hand comes.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture_zpsbd4149b8.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/LeFuJun/screen-capture-1_zps6e84514d.png

This is what I see. A guy stopping from hitting with the following hand. If he feints you to do this ... Then what ?

[Bacon]

Where's this animosity coming from? We've never met and I've done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I've never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that's me. :-)

I like mo duk too. I also like mo chicken, mo turkey, and mo gravy. Seriously Phil it's not animosity. We think what you showed violates some of the basic principles of wing chun and we're saying so and saying why. Anyone who does any insulting or name calling is straight out the window but there's nothing wrong with objectively dissecting what we consider very bad technique.

[GlennR]

Where's this animosity coming from? We've never met and I've done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I've never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that's me. :-)

Phil, youve now replied to this twice and missed my reply.. it was a joke aimed at G and K

[Eric_H]

We have a similar technique in our dummy form. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of the application.

The structure doesn't pass to HFY spec, nor does the stance or footwork, but Phil doesn't do HFY - so what can I really say about it other than i disagree based on lineage?

One bigger difference spatially is when we will pull the arm out to the wrist before circling the bridge - we tend to move more laterally than front to back as Phil does here. Gets you further away from that other arm and leaves you in a better position for striking IMO.

[wingchunIan]

Where's this animosity coming from? We've never met and I've done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I've never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that's me. :-)

Phil, think you might owe Glen an apology, you clearly didn't read his post properly before posting. He was actually having a dig at others and in effect fighting your corner by defending your post. Go back and read what he wrote, then read his next post and I think you will agree.

[wingchunIan]

Now insofar as "four techniques", tell that to any Pa Kua or Hsing I practitioner who utilizes an-chi-lo-fan. Ask them if they are doing four techniques. They will tell you it is one technique. In similar vein, Phil does one technique. It can be broken down into different parts for teaching purposes but when it comes to application, it is one technique. And of course he would want to get to the outside with a CLF practitioner because the opponent has just laterally crossed his center line setting him up for a checkmate. Phil solutions that brilliantly and I applaud him for engaging with strangers who do not fight his style.



Your post above illustrates well that you don't do or for that matter understand wing chin. Compound movements or strings of moves however you wish to describe them are in violation of the wing chun principles of taking the most direct route to the centre and the principle of economy of motion. Why use multiple stages when one will do. Not commenting on what Phil was doing in his clip merely high lighting why your analogies of other arts are flawed.

[GlennR]

Phil, think you might owe Glen an apology, you clearly didn't read his post properly before posting. He was actually having a dig at others and in effect fighting your corner by defending your post. Go back and read what he wrote, then read his next post and I think you will agree.

Thanks Ian, you got it in one.

On re reading what i wrote i can see how Phil thought i was having a dig at him but i thought my explanation would have sorted that

Not to worry.... im actually a big fan of Phils

[Phil Redmond]

I've been away from here for a while and was wondering how my brothers and sisters here were doing. I wanted to share the clip with my family. Yes, I consider us a family no matter how dysfunctional. :-) I guess I felt like I was attacked. I'm in Cali but I still have the NYC comeback. I jumped the gun Glenn and I apologize.

[Phil Redmond]

The angles you use are wrong, you are getting away with it because the guy stops and doesn't follow in ...
I wasn't so much concerned with my upper hand.I made the clip for another Wing Chun Sifu who wanted to know how we used the Fook/Fuhk. I was mostly concerned to show him why the elbow concept (Mo Yul Jiang), immovable elbow was important.
In NYC I've fought some CLF guys. They'll strike and hope you block so they can use a corkscrew punch and fall into a Sei Ping Mah and strike you with a Ginger Fist in the rib cage. Yes, my high block was not "on point". I wanted to show the other guy that you can apply a Fook even when attacked to the upper gate. I was using 0:27 in the following clip except I was apply it from the Central (not center), line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcwwzgIwaLE

[GlennR]

I've been away from here for a while and was wondering how my brothers and sisters here were doing. I wanted to share the clip with my family. Yes, I consider us a family no matter how dysfunctional. :-) I guess I felt like I was attacked. I'm in Cali but I still have the NYC comeback. I jumped the gun Glenn and I apologize.

No problem Phil, it can be hard to decipher some of the comments here and mine was in that group..

Hope youre well and training hard

[Phil Redmond]

This is what I see. A guy stopping from hitting with the following hand. If he feints you to do this ... Then what ?
This was a demo to show the use of the fook. I wasn't in "combat" mode. :-)
What do I do if someone flips the script? I interrupt and do something else like we all do in Chi Sao.

[Phil Redmond]

No problem Phil, it can be hard to decipher some of the comments here and mine was in that group..

Hope youre well and training hard

So far so good. Thx, :)

[k gledhill]

I wasn't so much concerned with my upper hand.I made the clip for another Wing Chun Sifu who wanted to know how we used the Fook/Fuhk. I was mostly concerned to show him why the elbow concept (Mo Yul Jiang), immovable elbow was important.
In NYC I've fought some CLF guys. They'll strike and hope you block so they can use a corkscrew punch and fall into a Sei Ping Mah and strike you with a Ginger Fist in the rib cage. Yes, my high block was not "on point". I wanted to show the other guy that you can apply a Fook even when attacked to the upper gate. I was using 0:27 in the following clip except I was apply it from the Central (not center), line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcwwzgIwaLE

I use the huen sao against inside low strikes against boxers. I cant turn at all like you are doing or Im toast. I rely on a tight elbow with cutting line, as slt.
WSL had some ideas I can share when we meet. I know you're past lineage wars ; )

[k gledhill]

I see three pics. The guy in the trunks does a left darn bo chin choi and the other guy does Hop Gar attack hands to the bridge. The guy in the trunks does a weak right sim bo chin choi and the other guy does a wiper to the bridge. The guy in the trunks does a kinda sorta chin choi/ chow choi and hits the guy. What is this suppose to demonstrate and how does it add to the discussion of Phil's technique that he has graciously shared with us? Please detail your argument. Thank you. All the best.
SKM

The "other guy" on the right is Wong Shun Leung, ever heard of him ? :D

[LFJ]

@SKM

Simple, Direct & Efficient.

Wing Chun actions should always be in line with these three guiding principles.

In Phil's technique he's trying at all costs to get to an advantageous position on the opponent's blind side, even if it means crossing himself with the opposite arm and stepping in the direction of the punch, putting himself in danger. His angle is bad, so he can only use one hand, while the opponent can easily throw the second punch, difficult to defend from that position.

He's also doing several actions to jerk, circle, and slap away the opponent's single punch in order to get to the outside and deliver a low palm strike- not very rewarding for all that work assuming his opponent doesn't just deck him with the second hand as soon as he crosses himself to jat-sau the wrong side.

If you can't see how that is not simple, roundabout, and inefficient, then I'll show you this clip for contrast. There's no need to get to the outside to deal with it, and it's one beat. Round punch comes, punch right away:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z38hM4LCBU

Simple, Direct & Efficient.

If you want to know what the fuk-sau concept is, it's a straight punch with the elbow cutting the way, not a hooking shape or action. That's taking the visual form of SNT too literally. The hand doesn't matter. It's the elbow. See the fuk-sau concept in the paak-sau drill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx0US23G-F8

Once again, Simple, Direct & Efficient.

[LFJ]

We have a similar technique in our dummy form.

As we do it it's a recovery if we ever mistakenly end up on the inside which we'd never intentionally do, but first of all we don't jat-sau to jerk the opponent in when we are in such a bad position. That's just asking for it. Secondly the response is to hyun and cut back to punch with the jam-sau right away, not step around, slap away, low palm...


I don't see anything wrong with the idea of the application.

Either review my previous post, or try it out with a live opponent who doesn't just throw one punch and let you play with it and you'll probably see then.

[LFJ]

What do I do if someone flips the script? I interrupt and do something else like we all do in Chi Sao.

Flipping the script would be doing anything but throwing one punch and standing there. If you have to do something else in that case, why try to pull this trick off in the first place?

[anerlich]

Phil, waste no more of your pearls on these swine.

[Eric_H]

try it out with a live opponent who doesn't just throw one punch and let you play with it and you'll probably see then.

Have, many times. Your footwork needs to be lateral and you need to have your wu sao alive, playing inside you often invite the second hand. Not impossible to deal with.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, waste no more of your pearls on these swine.
Yeah Andrew, I think you have a point. I guess I'm just easy.....lol

[Phil Redmond]

I already prepared this clip but I'm done with the subject after this. I'm available to demonstrate this and other aspects of Wing Chun in real time if anyone is interested in testing me. Being tested is the best way for me to improve. I'm in SoCal right now but I travel to do work shops. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s37CCiz0EuA

[Bacon]

I already prepared this clip but I'm done with the subject after this. I'm available to demonstrate this and other aspects of Wing Chun in real time if anyone is interested in testing me. Being tested is the best way for me to improve. I'm in SoCal right now but I travel to do work shops. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s37CCiz0EuA

You should come to Toronto Phil.

[Graham H]

@SKM

Simple, Direct & Efficient.

Wing Chun actions should always be in line with these three guiding principles.

In Phil's technique he's trying at all costs to get to an advantageous position on the opponent's blind side, even if it means crossing himself with the opposite arm and stepping in the direction of the punch, putting himself in danger. His angle is bad, so he can only use one hand, while the opponent can easily throw the second punch, difficult to defend from that position.

He's also doing several actions to jerk, circle, and slap away the opponent's single punch in order to get to the outside and deliver a low palm strike- not very rewarding for all that work assuming his opponent doesn't just deck him with the second hand as soon as he crosses himself to jat-sau the wrong side.

If you can't see how that is not simple, roundabout, and inefficient, then I'll show you this clip for contrast. There's no need to get to the outside to deal with it, and it's one beat. Round punch comes, punch right away:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z38hM4LCBU

Simple, Direct & Efficient.

If you want to know what the fuk-sau concept is, it's a straight punch with the elbow cutting the way, not a hooking shape or action. That's taking the visual form of SNT too literally. The hand doesn't matter. It's the elbow. See the fuk-sau concept in the paak-sau drill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx0US23G-F8

Once again, Simple, Direct & Efficient.

I have a problem with those videos. I used to use those actions. Chum Kiu fook sau against a hook punch and also the Pak sau idea. I tried it once against some people who can punch. In fact a whole group of people tried it and every single time it would not work. I've experimented many times in recent years against people and I have since stopped using them. They are not in my system anyway. Ok when you know what punch is coming and it amuses me when the teacher tells the student which arm to punch with. It was also in Phils video at which point I switched it off. These things are all good in the controlled environment of the training school but in reality and/or hard sparring they probably will fail. I also don't think they adhere to the principle of fight the person not the arms. I showed the videos to a friend of mine who is big into MMA and fights out of a local gym to me. His response.......I'd take those guys heads off if they tried that s'""t on me. I would have to agree with him on that one. Sorry boys.

That action in Chum Kiu in my lineage is a punching concept and improves the elbow. It's not for blocking. I prefer my method. Not saying yours is wrong. If you can make that work in sparring without chasing arms then I take my hat off to you all.

The action shown in the dummy form of Pak sau is also not for blocking arms. A common problem in a fight due to the ferocity and panic of it all is that we tend to over shoot our arms which in turn may cause us to lose any advantage we may have. The dummy defines the limit in which we can work and this action develops this. The upper dummy arms are for reference and are not seen as a substitute for human arms in my system. I also prefer that way as well.

I'm not saying your wrong LFJ if thats how you do it. We do it differently is all and I think our way is better for a fighting situation. For me it's better.

Shame we are not local. I could show why I think those ideas fail in real time and not from my iPad :D. I would also like Phil Redmond to try that circling stuff on me.

[Graham H]

I also asked my instructor about fook sau used for blocking and he said "sifu must have forgot to teach me that bit"

I found that highly amusing. It seems Wong Shun Leung forgot to teach him the whole system :D

[LFJ]

Seems every single action in your system is the same thing, a punch. :)

Personally, I've never used taan-sau or CK fuk-sau against a round punch. I first deal with it by distance management, either being too far at first or too close for a round punch like that anyway, of course making use of angles to shut down the opponent at that point.

What I have used with success instead is a wu-sau shape. He explains in the video that the taan-sau may be structurally too weak and by turning the arm over in CK fuk-sau it engages the triceps making it stronger. However, I still find the elbow position collapsable against a strong round punch, so I opt for using a wu-sau shape by having the elbow out in line with the shoulder rather than pulled in. That creates a much more naturally solid structure quite like an arch and I'm only really confident in using that, as opposed to the two alternatives shown there.

But it is the concept anyway of attacking straight away in one beat in the most direct way straight to their face. It's not chasing the arm, but goes into the core of their movement to shut it down.

What's not to like about the paak-sau though? Overshooting is no problem so long as the proper elbow position is maintained. The paak-sau is basically a punch and becomes that. You seem to like seeing everything as a punch. That's what it is. A punch straight away, cutting through whatever obstacles may or may not be there.

[Hendrik]

Phil,

IMHO, WCK 1850 include more then most think today.

The wing Chun or not wing Chun discuss here is actually an issue based on Ipman teaching. Bill WCK is more toward the snake reel type, WSL WCK is addressing the crane withstand type.

Some how, gm Ipman split the two elements In favour of crane withstand , and go separation as one can see bill WCK and wsl WCK . As we know today with evidence, snake reel and crane withstand is a fusion or hybrid of WCK 1850 red boat.

By evidence, as we know, Gm Ipman evolve away his siu nim tau, taking a way the snake reel section across twc or other Ipman lineages. The missing snake reel section of Ipman snt signature also become a signature to identify who took Gm Ipman set and further evolve into their own style of WCK. And in fact there are many snt slt of so called claim to be older WCK lineages then Ipman lineage or red boat WCK lineage are actually violating Gm Ipman signature. Because in their snt slt they also took away the snake reel section, and we know for sure, the slt snt pre 1900 pre Ipman , the snake reel section has to be there in the snt slt set. So, if one freeze every WCK lineages video on snt practice at 2010. One will see who is making big claim but actually copying Gm Ipman.



Also, as we know today, Leung jan further evolve his WCK to pin San at his old age in Pinsan teaching of kulo, that also evolve away from the crane withstand element in the centra door and introduce more variation of center line regaining. So, if one take the basic crane withstand type as the only proper WCK and other as not, then when they saw dr. Leung jan s pin San, they will say it is not WCK. Well, guess what? It is Leung jan art pre exist Ipman for many generation.

Thus, what is WCK in Ipman WCK lineage? What is not? That question is for Gm Ipman since he created the question due to his teaching.


Thus, what is WCK? Perhaps on needs to look at the big picture . One might need to know what type of Ipman WCK one practice instead of using the Ipman WCK one practice as the reference of WCK. Thus, ie. if one is using WSL WCK as the reference then Leung jan Pinsan WCK is not WCK. So, could that be right?

We today knows WCK has snake reel crane withstand, within these it has squre body Jin San and angle body pin San. That is just a reality of facts. WCK is more then just one peron view, there are many wck grand masters since the red boat era and many in the red boat era, there are many ways a philosophy can be implement and not to mention there always a snake and crane fusion which is based.

WCK simply has more veriaty then most think.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207906]Phil,

IMHO, WCK 1850 include more then most think today.

The wing Chun or not wing Chun discuss here is actually an issue based on Ipman teaching. Bill WCK is more toward the snake reel type, WSL WCK is addressing the crane withstand type.

Some how, gm Ipman split the two elements In favour of crane withstand , and go separation as one can see bill WCK and wsl WCK . As we know today with evidence, snake reel and crane withstand is a fusion or hybrid of WCK 1850 red boat.

By evidence, as we know, Gm Ipman evolve away his siu nim tau, taking a way the snake reel section across twc or other Ipman lineages. That become a signature to identify who took Gm Ipman set and further evolve into their own style of WCK.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMo FWIW- Hendrik- I don't think that you are correct about Ip Man or Ip Man's wing chun.--to be making your generalizations.
Much of what is called IM wing chun is based on small snips of IM's art. And. interpretations of videos just before he died and interpretations of that is a pretty superficial way of understanding IM"s wing chun.
IM's art is not just about crane. There are syntheses of circles and lines ,, and has clear suntheses
of "internal" and "external" principles.

[Paddington]

IM's art is not just about crane. There are syntheses of circles and lines ,, and has clear suntheses
of "internal" and "external" principles.

Joy, would you consider Chu Shong Tin as an example of an Ip Man student that has tried to bring out that aspect of Ip Man wing chun?

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207906]Phil,

IMHO, WCK 1850 include more then most think today.

The wing Chun or not wing Chun discuss here is actually an issue based on Ipman teaching. Bill WCK is more toward the snake reel type, WSL WCK is addressing the crane withstand type.

Some how, gm Ipman split the two elements In favour of crane withstand , and go separation as one can see bill WCK and wsl WCK . As we know today with evidence, snake reel and crane withstand is a fusion or hybrid of WCK 1850 red boat.

By evidence, as we know, Gm Ipman evolve away his siu nim tau, taking a way the snake reel section across twc or other Ipman lineages. That become a signature to identify who took Gm Ipman set and further evolve into their own style of WCK.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMo FWIW- Hendrik- I don't think that you are correct about Ip Man or Ip Man's wing chun.--to be making your generalizations.
Much of what is called IM wing chun is based on small snips of IM's art. And. interpretations of videos just before he died and interpretations of that is a pretty superficial way of understanding IM"s wing chun.
IM's art is not just about crane. There are syntheses of circles and lines ,, and has clear suntheses
of "internal" and "external" principles.


Joy,

My share above is based on the observation of Ipman lineages practice. I don't know Gm Ipman but all the videos of the practice , IMHO, can be summaries with the signatures I present above.

Also, as I present above, bill WCK is focus on snake wsl WCK is toward crane. the snt has taken away snake.

So, it is not that Ipman WCK doesn't have snake but it has evolved to has its identify in its own way. That is nothing wrong on that. Some elements might be more develop some elements might be tune down. It is just human evolution.

Thus, using this identity to not aware of the source and variety of red boat WCK as the real true WCK reference is trouble. IMHO. And that create the issue of this threat, is bill WCK WCK? That is a question for Gm Ipman to answer.


Also, Joy, momentum and momentum based on different type of engines variation can be scan and read. Thus, there is no secrete to read the dominant elements of ones art. IMHO. WCK has passed the fuzzy era of decades ago but moving toward a clear element identifying era.

[LFJ]

The action shown in the dummy form of Pak sau is also not for blocking arms...

...The upper dummy arms are for reference and are not seen as a substitute for human arms in my system.

It is not, in your system maybe, but WSL taught it this way. See in the following clip starting at about 3:40.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

Also, in response to this topic, this video shows WSL teaching why it's bad to cross yourself and what to do if you end up on the wrong side with gaang-sau starting at about 2:40.

The response from the MYJ form is to quickly hyun and turn back immediately striking with the jam-sau. This is the action we were discussing in wu-sau thread.

He then shows a response to a paak-sau applied incorrectly (on the inside), which is to directly cut back with man-sau rather than turning back.

[Paddington]

It is not, in your system maybe, but WSL taught it this way. See in the following clip starting at about 3:40.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

Also, in response to this topic, this video shows WSL teaching why it's bad to cross yourself and what to do if you end up on the wrong side with gaang-sau starting at about 2:40.

The response from the MYJ form is to quickly hyun and turn back immediately striking with the jam-sau. This is the action we were discussing in wu-sau thread.

He then shows a response to a paak-sau applied incorrectly (on the inside), which is to directly cut back with man-sau rather than turning back.

I notice that when demonstrating the movement from the wrong 'gaang' on the actual human being, he raises his elbow slightly (from the upper gang sau shape at 2.51 to the position @ 2.53). The movement that he uses to circle to the outside and where he raises his elbow slightly (he clearly does even though it is on the 'blind side' to us) is what I thought a kau sau.

If I swept that circling hand lower then for me, at least, I think I would be doing a lower passive ganng sau instead (and I do this).

Like Ian, I think he does this to avoid the movement of the opponents arm being jammed by his own arm if his elbow was completely down. I don't speak the language he is speaking and I would love to read a translated transcript. I have no idea if he is saying "don't do what I am demonstrating here", or advocating the movements he is showing at the above cited time stamps.

EDIT: Oh I watched that clip in slow motion using vlc media player @ 1/4 speed.

EDIT2: If Ali is reading, what I was referring to as my contact point is similar to what you see in that WSL slip at the above cited time frames.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1207908]


Joy,

My share above is based on the observation of Ipman lineages practice. I don't know Gm Ipman but all the videos of the practice , IMHO, can be summaries with the signatures I present above.

Also, as I present above, bill WCK is focus on snake wsl WCK is toward crane. the snt has taken away snake.

So, it is not that Ipman WCK doesn't have snake but it has evolved to has its identify in its own way. That is nothing wrong on that. Some elements might be more develop some elements might be tune down. It is just human evolution.

Thus, using this identity to not aware of the source and variety of red boat WCK as the real true WCK reference is trouble. IMHO. And that create the issue of this threat, is bill WCK WCK? That is a question for Gm Ipman to answer.


Also, Joy, momentum and momentum based on different type of engines variation can be scan and read. Thus, there is no secrete to read the dominant elements of ones art. IMHO. WCK has passed the fuzzy era of decades ago but moving toward a clear element identifying era.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- like many you seem to be generalizing based on whatever videos you see. There are no videos of "original wing chun"- one just draws inferences.I know that wing chun goes back earlier than Leung Jan.
I watched videos of snake and crane wing chun. My inference? It's pretty sloppy wing chun.
Of course, I could be wrong. That's the world of videos. And everyone has opinions... some better than others.

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1207910]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- like many you seem to be generalizing based on whatever videos you see. There are no videos of "original wing chun"- one just draws inferences.I know that wing chun goes back earlier than Leung Jan.
I watched videos of snake and crane wing chun. My inference? It's pretty sloppy wing chun.
Of course, I could be wrong. That's the world of videos. And everyone has opinions... some better than others.

Joy,

You can have your opinions, I am ok with it.

However, up to now, I am just presenting what it is by evidence. And not commenting more then that.

As your judgement on snake and crane wing chun, same with any lineages including Ipman lineage, there are good and bad followers .


Also, your words and mine doesn't count, written record of red boat era is the reference.

As for video, engine can be read, as one can analyze momentum type; however, until one knows how to read engine, one can have miss wing Chun herself right in front of one. One still dont see what is what. IMHO.

The different between you and me on posting is you use yourself as reference to judge WCK . I describe what is existed in the world of WCK from 1850 to today. What exist speak for itself. What Ipman and other have done is locked in the history now. the evidence speak for itself.

as here in this thread, you have a TWC from Bill and WSL WCK, both are from Ipman and they varies. Ipman cannot deny that and it is not a generalization but facts in details.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1207920]

Joy,

You can have your opinions, I am ok with it.

However, up to now, I am just presenting what it is by evidence. And not commenting more then that.

As your judgement on snake and crane wing chun, same with any lineages including Ipman lineage, there are good and bad followers .


Also, your words and mine doesn't count, written record of red boat era is the reference.

As for video, engine can be read, as one can analyze momentum type; however, until one knows how to read engine, one can have miss wing Chun herself right in front of one. One still dont see what is what. IMHO.

The different between you and me on posting is you use yourself as reference to judge WCK . I describe what is existed in the world of WCK from 1850 to today. What exist speak for itself. What Ipman and other have done is locked in the history now. the evidence speak for itself.

as here in this thread, you have a TWC from Bill and WSL WCK, both are from Ipman and they varies. Ipman cannot deny that and it is not a generalization but facts in details.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's ok Hendrik. I am not going to argue with you about your assumptions and conclusions.
Some of the "evidences" you refer to appear to have different meanings depending on the observer.

[Phil Redmond]

Shame we are not local. I could show why I think those ideas fail in real time and not from my iPad :D. I would also like Phil Redmond to try that circling stuff on me.
That "circling stuff" is just one option. I may never use it in a fight. But, I don't mind doing full contact. It's just something I like to do. And if I lose I'll work out why. ;-)
Could you explain what the "circling stuff" that most Wing Chun people call a Huen Sao is used for? I would really would like to know what you'd use a Heun Sao for.

[Ali. R]

Redmond, you have nothing to prove; you’ve paid your dues as a solid master in your system, I’ve felt your energy years ago and know you shouldn’t be taking lightly, and to Graham, if you’re ever in my area in which you’ll probably never be, I’ll be happy to try it on you; same application Redmond did, I mean it for real, I’ll be very happy to.:D

Take care,

Ali

[Phil Redmond]

Graham this is no reflection on you but it's sad for Wing Chun that you had to go to an MMA guy to get an opinion on Wing Chun. It's like saying only MMA guys know about fighting and that Wing Chun people don't. :-(

[LFJ]

Could you explain what the "circling stuff" that most Wing Chun people call a Huen Sao is used for? I would really would like to know what you'd use a Heun Sao for.

If you watch the video at the top of this page you'll see WSL showing the same function you show- to get to the outside when on the inside.

2 big differences though;

One- He said that's the only wrong side to be on and that the move is a quick recovery from the disadvantageous position should we mistakenly find ourselves there.

Two- He uses two hands at the same time striking immediately in one beat. Simple, Direct & Efficient.

The "circling stuff" is going out of your way to pull off a nifty move on a guy in quite a wasteful manner. Hyun-sau is used for changing sides "when necessary" such as in this recovery action, or possibly to open a conservative opponent's tight guard. But since hyun-sau itself is not an attack, there is no other reason to be using it like that when you should just be striking directly.

[LFJ]

The movement that he uses to circle to the outside and where he raises his elbow slightly (he clearly does even though it is on the 'blind side' to us) is what I thought a kau sau.

The kau-sau description I'm getting is of a hook and pull laterally. This is rather a kind of rolling/sweeping action down and out with the hyun being more to guide the energy than to "latch on" to the opponent to move their limb.

[LFJ]

We do it differently is all and I think our way is better for a fighting situation. For me it's better.

What is your way to handle round/hook punches then?

[Graham H]

Graham this is no reflection on you but it's sad for Wing Chun that you had to go to an MMA guy to get an opinion on Wing Chun. It's like saying only MMA guys know about fighting and that Wing Chun people don't. :-(

Phil,

I didn't go to an MMA guy solely for an opinion. We were sat together and I was flicking through some responses on this forum and I showed him. I share the same opinion as him. Ving Tsun is my bread and butter. I will defend it where I see fit but the truth is most of it is rubbish. My opinion.

[Graham H]

What is your way to handle round/hook punches then?

It depends on many factors so no point in trying to say what I would do. Normally in sparring I would kick. My legs are longer than a bent arm unless I'm fighting inspector gadget of course lol

The last thing I would do would be to try and attack the arm in any way

[Graham H]

Redmond, you have nothing to prove; you’ve paid your dues as a solid master in your system, I’ve felt your energy years ago and know you shouldn’t be taking lightly, and to Graham, if you’re ever in my area in which you’ll probably never be, I’ll be happy to try it on you; same application Redmond did, I mean it for real, I’ll be very happy to.:D

Take care,

Ali

That would be awesome but it will never happen. What I can say 100% is I don't spar like the guys in those videos. You wouldn't have enough time to catch my arm, circle around it and get inside like Phil displayed. For a start I wouldn't offer you my arm like that and whilst you were busy going around in circles I would have other ideas in mind.

Saying that you may be very fast but you ain't that fast :D

[Bacon]

It depends on many factors so no point in trying to say what I would do. Normally in sparring I would kick. My legs are longer than a bent arm unless I'm fighting inspector gadget of course lol

The last thing I would do would be to try and attack the arm in any way

Also if it's a proper hook where the arm is pretty much 90 degrees and very hard to defend it's a very close attack; far closer than even a straight punch for instance. If you've let them in that close you've screwed up majorly because you've let them step past your guard and could have just hit them.

If it's not a proper hook and you're keeping them outside of your guard as you should be doing then the elbow angle will be far less acute meaning it's more of a swing than a hook. This you can just step off line and tan da against.

[Paddington]

The kau-sau description I'm getting is of a hook and pull laterally. This is rather a kind of rolling/sweeping action down and out with the hyun being more to guide the energy than to "latch on" to the opponent to move their limb.

The kau sau I describe can be used several ways, including the way you are describing the hyun. Here the heel of the palm works well as a contact point. It can also be used just to cover by having a light contact when body movement (three point stepping) is used to reposition to a different gate.

[LFJ]

It depends on many factors so no point in trying to say what I would do. Normally in sparring I would kick. My legs are longer than a bent arm unless I'm fighting inspector gadget of course lol

Sure, if the punch is coming from out of range where you can kick. If in range where it could hit your jaw though and you can't fit in a kick? Sure if you are skillful enough to safely get into VT range and use angling to prevent such attacks and end the situation there. But if one comes in that range, short of using a boxer's response of dipping or rolling with it, it has to be dealt with or you get dropped.


The last thing I would do would be to try and attack the arm in any way

Right. The action isn't for attacking the arm, but for shutting down the center of the motion, which happens to be between the spine and fist. It's still driving in affecting the opponent's core, rather than just knocking on the arm on the side. :)

[LFJ]

If it's not a proper hook and you're keeping them outside of your guard as you should be doing then the elbow angle will be far less acute meaning it's more of a swing than a hook. This you can just step off line and tan da against.

Just any sort of "round" punch was what we were talking about. But see our previous posts where I posted the taan-da/CK fuk-sau video and Graham's response to that. He doesn't think it'd work and has some other undefined "way" which is "better for fighting situations", whatever it is... :p

[Graham H]

Sure, if the punch is coming from out of range where you can kick. If in range where it could hit your jaw though and you can't fit in a kick? Sure if you are skillful enough to safely get into VT range and use angling to prevent such attacks and end the situation there. But if one comes in that range, short of using a boxer's response of dipping or rolling with it, it has to be dealt with or you get dropped.



Right. The action isn't for attacking the arm, but for shutting down the center of the motion, which happens to be between the spine and fist. It's still driving in affecting the opponent's core, rather than just knocking on the arm on the side. :)

Like I said there are too many things to take into account to say what I would do at any one moment. That is normally dictated by the movement of the other guy. If I was already in punching range then the chances of being hit by a hook reduce.

I don't consider such things as what I would do against a boxer or any other martial art. As soon as you try to predict anything or create a perfect fighting scenario you are going down the wrong road. I put my hands up and what happens is never certain. I can only hope I don't get put on my ass that day :D

[Graham H]

Just any sort of "round" punch was what we were talking about. But see our previous posts where I posted the taan-da/CK [i]fuk-sau[i/] video and Graham's response to that. He doesn't think it'd work and has some other undefined "way" which is "better for fighting situations", whatever it is... :p

It doesn't work. We have tried it. Tan da is not my thinking.

[Graham H]

90% of everything I knew about wing chun got scrapped the day I turned up at Philipp Bayers school. Fact!

[LFJ]

I put my hands up and what happens is never certain. I can only hope I don't get put on my ass that day :D

So putting your hands up and hoping you don't get put on your ass is the most effective. :)


It doesn't work. We have tried it. Tan da is not my thinking.

Not exactly my thinking either. I already described my preference, which I've used successfully. It's actually the same approach as from my original base in Songshan Shaolin, of which VT is like a small frame version. Same shapes and ideas.

[Bacon]

Just any sort of "round" punch was what we were talking about. But see our previous posts where I posted the taan-da/CK fuk-sau video and Graham's response to that. He doesn't think it'd work and has some other undefined "way" which is "better for fighting situations", whatever it is... :p

Well there's always simply absorbing a strike into a close block. Though it's more taxing and less positionally favorable it's faster, more high percentage, and still affords you the opportunity for simultaneous striking and blocking.

[Graham H]

So putting your hands up and hoping you don't get put on your ass is the most effective. :)



Not exactly my thinking either. I already described my preference, which I've used successfully. It's actually the same approach as from my original base in Songshan Shaolin, of which VT is like a small frame version. Same shapes and ideas.

Isn't that every bodies hope or are you that good that you don't trouble yourself with getting beat? :rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

Saying that you may be very fast but you ain't that fast :D

Maybe you’re right, but I’m just saying; maybe ones long journey of curiosity could very well turn into this (http://youtu.be/FQ5ob9B9yD4).

Take care,

[Graham H]

Hahahaha :D :D

[k gledhill]

It doesn't work. We have tried it. Tan da is not my thinking.

It doesn't work ! I have nasal injuries to prove it.

[k gledhill]

90% of everything I knew about wing chun got scrapped the day I turned up at Philipp Bayers school. Fact!

Likewise and many from other lineages.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,

I didn't go to an MMA guy solely for an opinion. We were sat together and I was flicking through some responses on this forum and I showed him. I share the same opinion as him. Ving Tsun is my bread and butter. I will defend it where I see fit but the truth is most of it is rubbish. My opinion.

Graham, I'll wager that you're a really nice guy in person. I concede. :-)

[Graham H]

Graham, I'll wager that you're a really nice guy in person. I concede. :-)

Aw shucks. :o
It's not even valentines day yet. :D

[Jansingsang]

It doesn't work. We have tried it. Tan da is not my thinking.


It doesn't work ! I have nasal injuries to prove it.

Now you two are f33king with us.:rolleyes:Your both contradicting yourselfs Graham you say Tan da is not of your thinking ? pls explain as Iam Wsl lineage and we use the Tan da movement with the correct footwork and shifting Ive never had a problem with its function :) What Tool do you use as a alternative? Why i say both you cats are contradicting yourselfs is the latest video Kevin presented with Your lineage fella Silvano Bonafe at 00.44 His clearly demonstrating Tan da Or is it a punch which you all seem to claim MAKE YOU FREAKING MINDS UP:D

http://youtu.be/ODmA3MsS9kU

[anerlich]

I showed the videos to a friend of mine who is big into MMA and fights out of a local gym to me. His response.......I'd take those guys heads off if they tried that s'""t on me. I would have to agree with him on that one. Sorry boys.

I thought you saw one MMA fighter get cleaned up outside a pub and that led you to the conclusion that all competitive fighters were clueless? But now this MMA bud of yours is an authority? Conflicted, dude.


90% of everything I knew about wing chun got scrapped the day I turned up at Philipp Bayers school. Fact!

I doubt anyone else has put out close to as many competitive chi sao vids. Fact!

[LFJ]

Your lineage fella Silvano Bonafe at 00.44 His clearly demonstrating Tan da Or is it a punch which you all seem to claim MAKE YOU FREAKING MINDS UP:D

They're only talking about using taan-da against round/hook punches.

You must.. read.. the thread. ;)

[GlennR]

Now you two are f33king with us.:rolleyes:Your both contradicting yourselfs Graham you say Tan da is not of your thinking ? pls explain as Iam Wsl lineage and we use the Tan da movement with the correct footwork and shifting Ive never had a problem with its function :) What Tool do you use as a alternative? Why i say both you cats are contradicting yourselfs is the latest video Kevin presented with Your lineage fella Silvano Bonafe at 00.44 His clearly demonstrating Tan da Or is it a punch which you all seem to claim MAKE YOU FREAKING MINDS UP:D

http://youtu.be/ODmA3MsS9kU

Thats the best bit about you WSLVT guys.... undying support for eachother... until you realise your different from eachother ;)

[LFJ]

Isn't that every bodies hope or are you that good that you don't trouble yourself with getting beat? :rolleyes:

Well sure, but I do think it's intelligent to have certain tools you know will do the job required of them, rather than just saying you'll do whatever and hope it works.

@Jansinsang and the rest-

I've worked out at least for myself why the taan-sau or CK fuk-sau are both likely to fail against round punches, and I believe it is the elbow. These two shapes keep the elbow in and down. Not only do they rely on muscular strength to shut down such a punch, their structure is also collapsible from the front and side against a powerful force because of the elbow being in.

As I explained, my preferred alternative is a wu-sau shape. In wu-sau the elbow moves out, in line with the shoulder. This creates an arch structure that is strong from each side and has better hip connection against round punches. It connects to the far hip, which is compromised if the elbow is in (where taan & CK fuk fail).

I've found this to be an effective alternative. Of course, not chasing the arm, but the center of the movement which happens to be on the arm between the spine and fist. Often this is enough to already affect their balance, at the same time attacking with the other arm straight away.

With the elbow in this position it can also transform to deal with the pressure if it is too strong (another point where taan and CK fuk fail). If caught somewhere further from their elbow on the forearm, it can quickly and easily fold and be replaced with the other hand if they are pressuring across the arm. If more in the elbow it'll roll into bong-sau to yield to their force and send it up and across that way.

Graham, maybe you can get your line of people to try this way out.

[Graham H]

Now you two are f33king with us.:rolleyes:Your both contradicting yourselfs Graham you say Tan da is not of your thinking ? pls explain as Iam Wsl lineage and we use the Tan da movement with the correct footwork and shifting Ive never had a problem with its function :) What Tool do you use as a alternative? Why i say both you cats are contradicting yourselfs is the latest video Kevin presented with Your lineage fella Silvano Bonafe at 00.44 His clearly demonstrating Tan da Or is it a punch which you all seem to claim MAKE YOU FREAKING MINDS UP:D

http://youtu.be/ODmA3MsS9kU

What lineage WSLVT? Who is your instructor?

BTW I think you have misinterpreted the posts mate! I don't see many contradictions only the same things explained from different mouths. That's the thing you see. I understand everything Kev writes as he practices the same system as me. I also understand the reasons why nobody else can. That can't be said for the rest of you who are just flailing around in the dark as usual trying to pick holes in things you haven't experienced or know about. All your responses are taken in that context. Most are humorous but in essence totally pointless. :p :)

[Graham H]

Graham, maybe you can get your line of people to try this way out.

If your way works for you then fine but I'm not trying out things that I ceased to use 5 years ago for very good reasons.

[Graham H]

Thats the best bit about you WSLVT guys.... undying support for eachother... until you realise your different from eachother ;)

I can only speak for myself and I agree with Kev's ideas on Ving Tsun. I also agree that outside my lineage things are different. I have experienced that first hand.

I respect what LFJ says more then your moribund posts Glenn but I don't have to agree with him if my thinking is a tad different do I? :)

[GlennR]

I respect what LFJ says more then your moribund posts Glenn but I don't have to agree with him if my thinking is a tad different do I? :)


Ofcourse you regard him more than me, he tows your line as he is one of your lot.

But nice to see you have a mind of your own

[Graham H]

Ofcourse you regard him more than me, he tows your line as he is one of your lot.

But nice to see you have a mind of your own

One of your lot???? lmao :D

This has turned into a school yard stand off :D:D

Warm cheese and cucumber sandwiches out of my lunch box are ready to be hoisted over your end with Anerlich and the rest of your gang in my sights! :p:D

[LFJ]

If your way works for you then fine but I'm not trying out things that I ceased to use 5 years ago for very good reasons.

Is that when you started PBVT and stopped facing non VT, so you don't have to deal with round punches where you aren't in range to just kick? :p I mean, you just say you prefer your way, but don't offer an actual alternative or describe what that is but "lift hands, hope for best".

Maybe talk past experience. Ever had someone throw a round punch at you in range in the last 5 years? When you had to deal with it or get clocked, what happened?

[wingchunIan]

I've worked out at least for myself why the taan-sau or CK fuk-sau are both likely to fail against round punches, and I believe it is the elbow. These two shapes keep the elbow in and down. Not only do they rely on muscular strength to shut down such a punch, their structure is also collapsible from the front and side against a powerful force because of the elbow being in.


Do you really do tan sao with your elbow in?

FWIW tan da against a round punch works well if you keep your tan supported from the hips. Against a genuine hook - firstly why are you that close? secondly the angle of the strike precludes any successful intervention with the hands. You can evade the strike and pass it as you would the elbow in elbow drill. One of the advantages of rear weighting in the stance and maintaining elbow distance is that you aren't in range for genuine hooks. If you get it wrong and end up too close you need to look to biu tze for your answer.

[LFJ]

In as compared to the wu-sau shape, and we're not just talking about a boxer's tight hook, but any sort of round punch.

[Paddington]

I've worked out at least for myself why the taan-sau or CK fuk-sau are both likely to fail against round punches, and I believe it is the elbow. These two shapes keep the elbow in and down. Not only do they rely on muscular strength to shut down such a punch, their structure is also collapsible from the front and side against a powerful force because of the elbow being in.
.

I agree LFG, the tan sau can collapse under the force of powerful 'round' punches. As you suggest, in the tan sau shape the bicep is activated slightly and this, IMO, contributes to the possibility of the shape collapsing when under pressure.

I find, and so do others I train with, a biu sau perhaps better than a tan. Mind you, it may be a biu that you are not used to; make a tan then rotate the forearm unil the palm is facing down. The elbow can move out a little too if needed. You can actually feel the bicep switch off as you rotate into the biu postion.

I find this biu like structure strong and very much less likely to collapse, particularly if used with a turn. That said, I do agree with others who suggest that tight hooks are had to defend like this but the haymakers, perhaps not

[Vajramusti]

I agree LFG, the tan sau can collapse under the force of powerful 'round' punches. As you suggest, in the tan sau shape the bicep is activated slightly and this, IMO, contributes to the possibility of the shape collapsing when under pressure.

I find, and so do others I train with, a biu sau perhaps better than a tan. Mind you, it may be a biu that you are not used to; make a tan then rotate the forearm unil the palm is facing down. The elbow can move out a little too if needed. You can actually feel the bicep switch off as you rotate into the biu postion.

I find this biu like structure strong and very much less likely to collapse, particularly if used with a turn. That said, I do agree with others who suggest that tight hooks are had to defend like this but the haymakers, perhaps not-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't comment on your specific usage without at least seeing a good picture of it.
But IMO anyway whether something collapses or not can depend on the details of the structure at that moment.

[wingchunIan]

I agree LFG, the tan sau can collapse under the force of powerful 'round' punches. As you suggest, in the tan sau shape the bicep is activated slightly and this, IMO, contributes to the possibility of the shape collapsing when under pressure.

I find, and so do others I train with, a biu sau perhaps better than a tan. Mind you, it may be a biu that you are not used to; make a tan then rotate the forearm unil the palm is facing down. The elbow can move out a little too if needed. You can actually feel the bicep switch off as you rotate into the biu postion.

I find this biu like structure strong and very much less likely to collapse, particularly if used with a turn. That said, I do agree with others who suggest that tight hooks are had to defend like this but the haymakers, perhaps not

We ought to exchange notes on this if we ever meet. I also use biu interchangeably with tan for this purpose but mainly due to it taking less movement from where my hands tend to start. I've had guys weighing well over 20stone throw round punches at my tan sao and its never collapsed yet. For me though this is the beauty of Wing Chun, there is a tool box and a set of principles which when combined give a variety of options, its then down to the practitioner to find out what works best for them.

[LFJ]

I find, and so do others I train with, a biu sau perhaps better than a tan. Mind you, it may be a biu that you are not used to; make a tan then rotate the forearm unil the palm is facing down. The elbow can move out a little too if needed. You can actually feel the bicep switch off as you rotate into the biu postion.

That's a similar reason for doing the CK fuk-sau which is the action at the beginning following the three shifts. The palm is down and the energy is going forward and out.

But what I find is that in either alternative it's not so much having the triceps vs bicep activated as it is about having the elbow in a position that can't stop a force that way, especially if it comes sideways. After all, taan implies spreading the force which should use bone rather than muscle to accomplish moving an incoming attack off line. Using it to crash into a round punch sounds like a misapplication to me anyway.


I do agree with others who suggest that tight hooks are had to defend like this but the haymakers, perhaps not

What Phil was talking about in the original video wasn't a boxer's tight hook anyway. It was more like round attacks a CLF practitioner would throw. This sort of wu-da response can work the same way against backhand punches from such styles as well.

[Paddington]

We ought to exchange notes on this if we ever meet. I also use biu interchangeably with tan for this purpose but mainly due to it taking less movement from where my hands tend to start. I've had guys weighing well over 20stone throw round punches at my tan sao and its never collapsed yet. For me though this is the beauty of Wing Chun, there is a tool box and a set of principles which when combined give a variety of options, its then down to the practitioner to find out what works best for them.

Hi Ian. I can plug in my web cam (yes I have that capability now!) and show you how I do the tan and biu in this context. Those shapes might be a touch different to how you may do them.

If you were at the Birmingham Chi Sau gathering a couple of years ago, I think John Brogden talked about such a theme, if that helps jog your memory (there was also a bit about striking an opponents core to break their momentum of attack at the same time, in this scenario).

[Paddington]

That's a similar reason for doing the CK fuk-sau which is the action at the beginning following the three shifts. The palm is down and the energy is going forward and out.



Yes, I know totally what you mean. That said, I believe Ian and I would call that fut sau and we would make contact with the wrist. Ian can confirm the case or not, here. The biu I am describing, although similar in a way, is a bit different. I say that primarily becasue, in our case, the contact point is different and the trajectory of the biu as it travels to intercept the round punch, is different from the fut sau.



But what I find is that in either alternative it's not so much having the triceps vs bicep activated as it is about having the elbow in a position that can't stop a force that way, especially if it comes sideways. After all, taan implies spreading the force which should use bone rather than muscle to accomplish moving an incoming attack off line. Using it to crash into a round punch sounds like a misapplication to me anyway.


I guess for me this is why I suggest always turning the stance when performing such shapes, or you could use a step instead. Although there is a time issue, as we are not dealing with fast, tight, boxer hooks (in this context), I think there is a good chance of spotting the telegraph so that one can turn in time.

[Bacon]

The tan sao is not meant to block all of the force against a round punch. You have to step off line. A strong swing will collapse a biu just the same as a tan if you don't.

[Graham H]

Is that when you started PBVT and stopped facing non VT, so you don't have to deal with round punches where you aren't in range to just kick? :p I mean, you just say you prefer your way, but don't offer an actual alternative or describe what that is but "lift hands, hope for best".

Maybe talk past experience. Ever had someone throw a round punch at you in range in the last 5 years? When you had to deal with it or get clocked, what happened?

If I was stood in front of you I would have no trouble explaining. Let's leave it at that now eh?

[LFJ]

If I was stood in front of you I would have no trouble explaining. Let's leave it at that now eh?

Do you know of any PBVT brethren in Shanghai?

[Graham H]

Do you know of any PBVT brethren in Shanghai?

There is nobody in China.

[Vajramusti]

Do you know of any PBVT brethren in Shanghai?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have had a student who some years ago went to a school in Shanghai run by someone who learned from Gary Lam.

[LFJ]

Yeah, Peter Hsu, but he's not from Philipp Bayer's line.

[Vajramusti]

Yeah, Peter Hsu, but he's not from Philipp Bayer's line.
---------------------------------------------------------

Yes. I know. These days "lines" often have diminished meanings.

[Graham H]

---------------------------------------------------------

Yes. I know. These days "lines" often have diminished meanings.

In most cases I would agree but in our "line" we are trying to keep the system true to what PB was taught by WSL and what PB has since passed on to his many students. It's the whole group of European students that were fortunate enough to spend a lot of time in his company not only during seminars, as a lot of people did, but personally as well.

It's probably not the right time to be bickering as we are in the anniversary period of his passing.

16 years ago. A time to mourn and reflect for a lot of people today. :(

[k gledhill]

In most cases I would agree but in our "line" we are trying to keep the system true to what PB was taught by WSL and what PB has since passed on to his many students. It's the whole group of European students that were fortunate enough to spend a lot of time in his company not only during seminars, as a lot of people did, but personally as well.

It's probably not the right time to be bickering as we are in the anniversary period of his passing.

16 years ago. A time to mourn and reflect for a lot of people today. :(

RIP Wong Shun Leung

[k gledhill]

Is that when you started PBVT and stopped facing non VT, so you don't have to deal with round punches where you aren't in range to just kick? :p I mean, you just say you prefer your way, but don't offer an actual alternative or describe what that is but "lift hands, hope for best".

Maybe talk past experience. Ever had someone throw a round punch at you in range in the last 5 years? When you had to deal with it or get clocked, what happened?

I remember 2 guys I stopped coming into a bar at closing time, one jumped into my face arguing so I po-pai'd him out of the door and stepped to follow ...he kept arguing and without warning threw a hooking right punch, I instinctively moved my jaw back an inch ...he over swung ( for GH ;):D ) and I then pak saoed his overswing elbow so he turned even more... as I hit him with a punch, he got stunned, I hit him 2 more times and he went down.
I prefer to let arms over swing or help them to...

[anerlich]

One of your lot???? lmao :D

This has turned into a school yard stand off :D:D

Warm cheese and cucumber sandwiches out of my lunch box are ready to be hoisted over your end with Anerlich and the rest of your gang in my sights! :p:D

Just leave your MMA mate at home, just in case everyone notices he's better at sandwich throwing than you are.

[Ozzy Dave]

I think that given the right timing, placement and distance, tan, biu, fook, wu or lan can work well against round strikes.

Working against a round strike unless caught early though is recipe for getting hit.

You won't catch it early if the opponent is good so I personally don't drill that much but tend to drill lan as I can draw the strike if I'm moving correctly.

One thing some seem to forget though is that not only can a straight beat a curve but a curve can beat a straight. For instance hooks in boxing are often thrown over the top of a straight and with good placement and timing beat the straight. This happens in the middle of an exchange not as an initial attack so thinking you can always kick against or avoid certain hand techniques is a type of martial myopia.

Violating the rules not withstanding, Wing Chun just doesn't develop the ability to throw a round strike like other styles which is a danger in that you don't know the breadth and depth of what your dealing with, which IMO requires you to either just fight a lot of (good) people from different styles or in a more enlightened age, cross train.

We need to develop a mature set of responses and tactics not a "she'll be right" (thought us Aussies were the only ones that did that) or "one size fits all" attitude.

Dave

[Graham H]

Just leave your MMA mate at home, just in case everyone notices he's better at sandwich throwing than you are.

He is world champion. His tuna mayo in crusty rye bread combination move is legendary.

[Graham H]

I think that given the right timing, placement and distance, tan, biu, fook, wu or lan can work well against round strikes.



Tan is a punching concept not for blocking hooks!

Biu could be used but all depends on the situation.

Fook is another punching concept not used for blocking hooks!

Wu is for protection and defines your next hit position and is not used for blocking hooks!

Lan is for creating space and/or turning your opponent away from you and not used for blocking hooks!


.......in my system that is so I would have to disagree with you.

[Ozzy Dave]

Tan is a punching concept not for blocking hooks!

Biu could be used but all depends on the situation.

Fook is another punching concept not used for blocking hooks!

Wu is for protection and defines your next hit position and is not used for blocking hooks!

Lan is for creating space and/or turning your opponent away from you and not used for blocking hooks!


.......in my system that is so I would have to disagree with you.

Each to their own, in my book they are all methods of interception to deflect force.

Simply and allowing for some flexibility in application, Tan deflects force downwards, biu upwards, fook to the side, wu forwards (when applied at the correct angle), and lan well lan is special as it can deflect backwards or forwards depending on the plane of the turn.

Given the nature of the boxing hook biu is best at "blocking" the line but blocking a hook is a gamble unless you can do so from an advantageous angle and close to the initiation of the movement, better to blend with it to some extent with body movement and deflect the line as our boxing friends do which is where the other sao come in if you don't want to just slip and bob but that's ok in my book too.

While I appreciate the alignment of tan to an outward or opening force and fook to an closing force when engaging a line of attack with a punch I personally find this approach overly reductionist.

Dave

[Graham H]

Each to their own, in my book they are all methods of interception to deflect force.

Yes, each to their own. Wing Chun is a generic term these days.


Simply and allowing for some flexibility in application, Tan deflects force downwards, biu upwards, fook to the side, wu forwards (when applied at the correct angle), and lan well lan is special as it can deflect backwards or forwards depending on the plane of the turn.

They are not applications. Just concepts and principles. Your ideas are opposite to mine.


Given the nature of the boxing hook biu is best at "blocking" the line but blocking a hook is a gamble unless you can do so from an advantageous angle and close to the initiation of the movement, better to blend with it to some extent with body movement and deflect the line as our boxing friends do which is where the other sao come in if you don't want to just slip and bob but that's ok in my book too.

Trying to defend a good hook from somebody that can throw one properly which is then followed up by more strikes. Its not a good idea to go and try and shut the punch down with one of your own arms. It's too dangerous for many reasons. To think that in a "real" fight one can go hunting for the arm and aim to make contact in a very specific place whilst also being aware of other attacks is absolute nonsense but synonymous with many WC schools! It's not in my lineage which makes me happy! :D



While I appreciate the alignment of tan to an outward or opening force and fook to an closing force when engaging a line of attack with a punch I personally find this approach overly reductionist.

Yes you do obviously. We have different ideas about these actions. No biggie. It's consistently bickered about on this forum :D

[Graham H]

engaging a line of attack with a punch


.....is exactly what Ving Tsun is about. Thanks for the snippet even though I had to edit it! :D

[Ozzy Dave]

Yes, each to their own. Wing Chun is a generic term these days.

Any TCMA is a generic term Graham.


They are not applications. Just concepts and principles. Your ideas are opposite to mine.

I didn't say application that's situation specific. Indeed they are concepts, concepts to deflect force. The actual shape holds relevance too, I think you are making it too abstract.


Trying to defend a good hook from somebody that can throw one properly which is then followed up by more strikes.

I know. Actually, I'm not trying to defend but gain a better position from which to attack - everything is difficult in the melee


Its not a good idea to go and try and shut the punch down with one of your own arms. It's too dangerous for many reasons.

Agreed, that's what I said, may be I didn't express it fully in any case not talking about shutting down, rather deflecting, rolling with the force if you will.


To think that in a "real" fight one can go hunting for the arm and aim to make contact in a very specific place whilst also being aware of other attacks is absolute nonsense but synonymous with many WC schools!

Not saying that either but since you bring it up setting someone up for "contact in in a very specific place" is essential to a predatory mindset and thus for "real" fighting.


We have different ideas about these actions. No biggie. It's consistently bickered about on this forum :D

Not so different and I'm not into bickering, everything is cool as long as it works for you. My book it would seem is just bigger than yours. :D


.....is exactly what Ving Tsun is about. Thanks for the snippet even though I had to edit it! :D

As a central idea but what you seem to be doing is leaving out the support system.

Dave

[Graham H]

Any TCMA is a generic term Graham.

True


I didn't say application that's situation specific. Indeed they are concepts, concepts to deflect force. The actual shape holds relevance too, I think you are making it too abstract.

Correct



I know. Actually, I'm not trying to defend but gain a better position from which to attack - everything is difficult in the melee

A better position from which to attack is created right from the outset. We don't look for it. The person opposite you shows you the way


Agreed, that's what I said, may be I didn't express it fully in any case not talking about shutting down, rather deflecting, rolling with the force if you will.

Oh


Not saying that either but since you bring it up setting someone up for "contact in in a very specific place" is essential to a predatory mindset and thus for "real" fighting.

No its not


Not so different and I'm not into bickering, everything is cool as long as it works for you. My book it would seem is just bigger than yours. :D

In Ving Tsun terms the simpler the smaller is better. Thank you for the compliment.


As a central idea but what you seem to be doing is leaving out the support system.

Support system?? Explain that......without so many quotations :D

My whole body is the support system ;)

[Ozzy Dave]

Support system?? Explain that......without so many quotations :D

My whole body is the support system ;)

Ok, the best description I have heard and agree with was from the works of Geoff Thompson and Peter Consterdean. If you're not familiar I urge you to look them up.

Salient also for the fact that both gentlemen have differing individual styles but adhere to the same set of concepts

Dave

[Graham H]

In your own words will suffice

[Ozzy Dave]

In your own words will suffice

They're all my own words Graham, I'm not one to toe a party line.

The main "concept" is to attack, all other concepts develop around this and should serve as a means to achieve that.

It is a simple strategy on paper and the strength of the art but a strength taken to extreme tends to become a weakness.

I personally cross train to keep perspective but that's me.

Dave

[Graham H]

They're all my own words Graham, I'm not one to toe a party line.

The main "concept" is to attack, all other concepts develop around this and should serve as a means to achieve that.

It is a simple strategy on paper and the strength of the art but a strength taken to extreme tends to become a weakness.

I personally cross train to keep perspective but that's me.

Dave

You cross train Wing Chun? That explains it. :rolleyes:

[Ozzy Dave]

You cross train Wing Chun? That explains it. :rolleyes:

Its a dirty subject for a purist I know but tell me this - if you don't cross train a boxing hook for example how can you talk with authority on the subject of what to use to counter it? What real insight can you bring to the table? The merits of fook sao for instance, to get back on topic, which has already been discussed with interesting insight and variation.

How do you in "your system" use fook sao to counter any attack round or straight?

[Graham H]

Its a dirty subject for a purist I know but tell me this - if you don't cross train a boxing hook for example how can you talk with authority on the subject of what to use to counter it? What real insight can you bring to the table? The merits of fook sao for instance, to get back on topic, which has already been discussed with interesting insight and variation.

How do you in "your system" use fook sao to counter any attack round or straight?

I used to box so I have an idea ;)

I do not use fook sau for anything other than developing the elbow in Siu Lim Tau for the the main weapon in Ving Tsun. The straight punch. This problem that we have keeping the elbow in and down when we punch is addressed right from the beginning so in order to correct this error the first set of actions are performed slowly and methodically. Natural human behaviour is not to punch this way. SLT starts the process of developing and attaining new habits for combat.

Fook Sau is a concept. Unlike most systems I don't use it as an application. My thinking is different.

[Paddington]

I used to box so I have an idea ;)
.

And for those that have not previously boxed but study Wing Chun, I would advice to try a bit of boxing so that you can get experience of the techniques, just like Graham has done.

There is nothing wrong with cross training if that is what the individual wants to do. Personally, I cross train even though my primary art, the one I train the most, is wing chun. I have done martial arts for most of my life, beginning with jui jitsu at five years old, and I continue to explore many different styles of martial arts.

I don't see that as incompatible to training wing chun, as some would suggest. In fact, wing chun gives me a language and a way to talk about martial arts more generally and I have an interest in interpreting and deconstructing other martial arts, with a wing chun mind set in hand.

[Graham H]

I don't see that as incompatible to training wing chun, as some would suggest. In fact, wing chun gives me a language and a way to talk about martial arts more generally and I have an interest in interpreting and deconstructing other martial arts, with a wing chun mind set in hand.

I don't quite see it that way. Due to the unnaturalness of the Ving Tsun punch and the fact that we train to be able to use each arm for two actions, namely attack and protection simultaneously, most other systems do not. The Ving Tsun forms are about teaching us new habits many of which go against our day to day behaviour. What is the point of spending months trying to get the elbow in, down and use it to control all the actions only to go to another style the same day/week that has the opposite way of thinking and striking ie hook punches etc etc?

Some people may be lucky enough to be able to master both ideas but most will not. SLT is primarily for this reason. If it wasn't needed then we wouldn't have it or we can do what most lineages do and invent hundreds of applications for all the different actions there in.

[Ali. R]

And for those that have not previously boxed but study Wing Chun, I would advice to try a bit of boxing so that you can get experience of the techniques, just like Graham has done.

For those who have less resolve mentally (fighting sprit) and not getting that from your sifu for some kinda reason which is nothing wrong with that, because most of the time they don’t have it as well. Just take your training on an educational approach and just from the way you develop your physical attributes do the same mentally, dealing with one’s psychological development of resolve by reading books.

Such as: the way of the ‘Samurai’ (Book of Five Rings), the way of the ‘Matador’ you could learn some of the mechanics and thoughts behind bullfighting (bullfight). By reading these books it could be a very good chance/tool that may help you develop a psychological explosion of mental discipline. Who knows, it could be a good start.

Boxing would be ok but not really in the later part of one’s life, and it wouldn’t help your wing chun all that much, but will create bad habits if you’re not careful. Bouncing around like a boxer while always going backwards (not wing chun) and never building dept for good wing chun power, putting yourself in position or on the end of power for a chest stomp, good right hand or kick to your midsection while playing the boxer’s game.

And you might run into a clown that thinks he knows how to box and doesn’t understand how to supplement your skills level for development and just ends up giving you a concussion, because deep down he's trying to prove something to himself and others that maybe watching (fake a$$), and don’t know the first thing about boxing training. Remember you’re not fighting little kids but grown men with complexes.

Most of you guys have families or good jobs and you don’t want to jeopardize that because deep down somewhere, something is telling you that you’re a punk. Listen; if you can bring up a family and love your wife, while keeping a job, you’re more man than anyone that can’t do that, and when they had plenty of opportunity too.

[Paddington]

Ali, I really don't know why you feel you need to give me all these life lessons, that is if your post is directed at me given you cite my earlier post. It is just that you seem to interchangeably address me and some 'younger than you' imaginary audience, so I am not sure what you are addressing and to whom.

I maybe in my mid thirties but I came to Wing Chun a long while ago and after training martial arts for most of my life. Yeah, not everybody is like me but still, your life lessons are a little wasted on me.

[Grumblegeezer]

I maybe in my mid thirties but I came to Wing Chun a long while ago and after training martial arts for most of my life. Yeah, not everybody is like me but still, your life lessons are a little wasted on me.

No reason to get testy. I'm an old phart at 57 and I actuall think Ali R was giving pretty good advice. But each to their own.

[Ali. R]

so I am not sure what you are addressing and to whom.

You said a lot for one that admits they don’t have a clue on what they'd just read.

I’m talking to these people: For those who have less resolve mentally (fighting sprit) and not getting help from their sifu.

By being in the ring for many years, I know better than to send someone to their crucifixion while they're getting served vinegar, It would be irresponsible to guide someone that way and telling them it would help their wing chun. Because they would get snatched out the frame completely and maybe forever; trying to develop resolve. All I’m saying is this; if you’re past the age of 30 and just started boxing. Start walking, because you’ve missed that bus.

[EternalSpring]

To be fair, I have to admit that boxing has definitely helped my Ving Tsun in many ways. It didn't necessarily "teach me Ving Tsun," but it made me think about many things that translated into my Ving Tsun and was literally instantly beneficial.

-Boxing with harder contact made me realize some major flaws I had when it came to hitting someone hard. In short, I realized that after a solid combo of punches, I always seemed to pause before continuing my attack. Since it's not often I hit someone with my Ving Tsun techniques as hard as I can, I never realized that I hadn't been adhering to the principal of continuing the attack and moving forward.

-Boxing made me far more conscious about my Ving Tsun footwork and situational awareness, if that makes sense. Now, I've actually fought a boxer successfully (and unsuccessfully lol) with my Ving Tsun, but being in a ring changed things up for me. It made me realize how I move when I get hit hard and start hurting. And to my surprise, I usually ended up moving to a place where things got worse (in my case, any corner of the ring). It also made me realize that I too should be able to use my own Ving Tsun footwork just as proficiently.

I think learning or even trying out other arts really can help any person's "primary" style, as long as they dont fall into the mindset of thinking that perhaps their primary system of fighting is flawed and they should quit. My sigong once put it an interesting way when he explained it as a concept by saying "In the end, even if i forget all the forms of all the systems I've learned except for Ving Tsun, it's okay, because at this point in time, I've trained and know those energies and I have them in my Ving Tsun."

[Ali. R]

You have some very good points there and some are true to fact, it’s nice to understand something that you might deal with in the future.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that a boxer can’t be defeated. But, while being past the age of 30 is not the best time to find out, and when fighting someone that’s been boxing for over a considerable amount of time while you're trying to develop heart, believe me; he’s just being nice if you're hanging in there with him.

But,,, not to develop heart or resolve and enough dept to stand in front of somebody while being past the age of 30, you’ll only be hamburger meat to those guys (happily), a willing idiot taking an unwanted but kicking and all for nothing.

[Phil Redmond]

At. 4:03 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR_2IphVRjg

[k gledhill]

At. 4:03 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR_2IphVRjg

Music always makes me grin.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR_2IphVRjg
3:09
In the video I posted I see that Si-Bak WSL adheres to the Mo Yuk Jiang (fixed elbow) concept in Wing Chun. Yet I see many Wing Chun Sifus violate that principle in Chi Sao clips. We need to start fighting. Bump all the demos including mine. If you're not fighting or never fought then you're doing Wing Chun dance and not Wing Chun the "Martial" art.

[Graham H]

At. 4:03 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR_2IphVRjg

Do you know the stories behing the SOIF Phil?? Obviously not or you wouldn't be using the contents of it as proof of what WSL did and didn't do.

That video is full of many mistakes. Good to see WSL in more youthful times but that is all I take from it.

[Vajramusti]

Do you know the stories behing the SOIF Phil?? Obviously not or you wouldn't be using the contents of it as proof of what WSL did and didn't do.

That video is full of many mistakes. Good to see WSL in more youthful times but that is all I take from it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OMG-there is youthful times WSL, middle time wsl, late time wsl- then there is P's wsl, GL's wsl.
PB's wsl, WSL's ex bro in law wsl,KG's wsl via a PB prism and a Graham wsl- a veritable hall of mirrors! And other name dropper's wsl.

I respect wsl, have met him but pay scant attention to the true believers.

Go Ravens!!

[k gledhill]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OMG-there is youthful times WSL, middle time wsl, late time wsl- then there is P's wsl, GL's wsl.
PB's wsl, WSL's ex bro in law wsl,KG's wsl via a PB prism and a Graham wsl- a veritable hall of mirrors! And other name dropper's wsl.

I respect wsl, have met him but pay scant attention to the true believers.

Go Ravens!!

Enjoy Joy...

http://www.northwalesvingtsun.com/North_Wales_Ving_Tsun/About_Us.html

[LaRoux]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing how this:

http://facedl.com/fvideo.php?f=iakkiniexenxn&philipp-bayer-wsl-vt-wing-chun-kung-fu

is any better technique-wise than the OP's clips.

[k gledhill]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing how this:

http://facedl.com/fvideo.php?f=iakkiniexenxn&philipp-bayer-wsl-vt-wing-chun-kung-fu

is any better technique-wise than the OP's clips.

So visit both personally and then let us know.

[LaRoux]

So visit both personally and then let us know.

That probably wouldn't really be worth my time. I don't really care which one is "better". I was simply stating my opinion after looking over the various posts here after someone on the main forum posted about wing chun being crap.

I don't think either method would serve my purposes very well anyway. But thanks for the input.

[k gledhill]

That probably wouldn't really be worth my time. I don't really care which one is "better". I was simply stating my opinion after looking over the various posts here after someone on the main forum posted about wing chun being crap.

I don't think either method would serve my purposes very well anyway. But thanks for the input.

What are your purposes ?

[LaRoux]

What are your purposes ?

Off the top of my head, I'd say self-defense, conditioning, fun, grappling, weapons, and maybe a little bit of general ass-kicking.

[Graham H]

Enjoy Joy...

http://www.northwalesvingtsun.com/North_Wales_Ving_Tsun/About_Us.html

I am visiting these guys next weekend. Much to talk about, mainly about why we left our old lineages :D

[Graham H]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OMG-there is youthful times WSL, middle time wsl, late time wsl- then there is P's wsl, GL's wsl.
PB's wsl, WSL's ex bro in law wsl,KG's wsl via a PB prism and a Graham wsl- a veritable hall of mirrors! And other name dropper's wsl.

I respect wsl, have met him but pay scant attention to the true believers.

Go Ravens!!

I was young once. I am now middle aged. One day I will be old. It's a normal human process Joy. :D:D

You are slowly but surely losing ground. It's funny to watch. Just another person who's posts have no substance. They have turned into mild insults :)

Go Joy! Woooooo hoooooooo! :p

[GlennR]

You are slowly but surely losing ground. It's funny to watch. Just another person who's posts have no substance. They have turned into mild insults :)

Go Joy! Woooooo hoooooooo! :p


Yeh Joy!
Watch those mild insults, Graham is angry, and you wouldnt like him when he's angry....

He turns into the Incredible PB Sycophant!!!

[Graham H]

Yeh Joy!
Watch those mild insults, Graham is angry, and you wouldnt like him when he's angry....

He turns into the Incredible PB Sycophant!!!

Spit that dictionary out Glenn! These big words don't suit you! I liked you better before when I could chortle all day long at your views on Wing Chun ;)

[Vajramusti]

Yeh Joy!
Watch those mild insults, Graham is angry, and you wouldnt like him when he's angry....

He turns into the Incredible PB Sycophant!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True!

[Graham H]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True!

Ha! It seems I'm not the only sycophant! :)

[Vajramusti]

Ha! It seems I'm not the only sycophant! :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

True you have company- all repeating the same catechism.

[Grumblegeezer]

Spit that dictionary out Glenn! These big words don't suit you! I liked you better before when I could chortle all day long at your views on Wing Chun ;)

This thread's got me chortling right now!

But if I had to be serious, I'd have to side with Joy regarding "true believers". Hell, I had a nasty case of that myself once. I'm feeling much better now, thanks. :p

[GlennR]

Ha! It seems I'm not the only sycophant! :)

Agreeing with a comment as opposed to mindless repetition of the adulation of a chap in Germany are two different things Graham.

Bit like chi-sao and fighting perhaps? ;0

[anerlich]

I am visiting these guys next weekend.

Good news ... if it takes you further away from Australia

[Graham H]

Agreeing with a comment as opposed to mindless repetition of the adulation of a chap in Germany are two different things Graham.

Bit like chi-sao and fighting perhaps? ;0

So in a nutshell there is myself, Kevin, and Sean giving props to a guy who we think deserves it and totally changed our thinking on Ving Tsun. Then there is you Anerlich and Joy who throw sandwiches every time we do it. You, Anerlich and Joy know each other personally? Have you ever sparred or do you just big up each other because you think you are fighting a worthy cause? :confused:

I have never met Kevin or Sean and yet we all say the same thing. Go figure.

I do hold Philipp in high regard but you have to go visit to understand why. That is also something me, Kev and Sean have done so what ever you say or Joy says or Aner says will always be just words. Pointless, moribund, meaningless words from a few computer fighters and little all else. Capeeeeeeesh?! :D

Glenn you are the weakest link!...................Goodbye! :p

[Graham H]

Good news ... if it takes you further away from Australia

Yes it will. By about 156 miles. Is that enough? I guess not.

Anyway it will take me further from Oz but the gap will never be as big as yours is from reality poppet! x

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1209485]So in a nutshell there is myself, Kevin, and Sean giving props to a guy who we think deserves it and totally changed our thinking on Ving Tsun. Then there is you Anerlich and Joy who throw sandwiches every time we do it. You, Anerlich and Joy know each other personally?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have not met Anerlich but I have seen Kevin.

Have a good visit at the school of whales. Will the true believers meet at a church or a revival tent.?

Lop lop and push- glory be!!!

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1209485]So in a nutshell there is myself, Kevin, and Sean giving props to a guy who we think deserves it and totally changed our thinking on Ving Tsun. Then there is you Anerlich and Joy who throw sandwiches every time we do it. You, Anerlich and Joy know each other personally?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have not met Anerlich but I have seen Kevin.

Have a good visit at the school of whales. Will the true believers meet at a church or a revival tent.?

Lop lop and push- glory be!!!

You saw me when I was with V Kan, different thinking completely.

[Wayfaring]

So in a nutshell there is myself, Kevin, and Sean giving props to a guy who we think deserves it and totally changed our thinking on Ving Tsun. Then there is you Anerlich and Joy who throw sandwiches every time we do it. You, Anerlich and Joy know each other personally? Have you ever sparred or do you just big up each other because you think you are fighting a worthy cause? :confused:


PB deserves props. He's a long-standing WCK sifu that has advanced the art for years, communicates well, from clips looks to have excellent footwork and angles and excellent bridge skills. He seems to have personalized certain areas of WCK and teaches a unique approach is based on his little tweaks over years. The WSL line in general is a great Ip Man lineage with a history of reality check fighting skills. I don't know if all the grandstudents of WSL still do the reality check fighting, but they should. Slap fighting is really not WSL's heritage.



I have never met Kevin or Sean and yet we all say the same thing. Go figure.

Muppets in unison prove nothing except that you are at a muppet show, even if what they are saying is true at the furthest stretch of your imagination. Go figure.



I do hold Philipp in high regard but you have to go visit to understand why. That is also something me, Kev and Sean have done so what ever you say or Joy says or Aner says will always be just words. Pointless, moribund, meaningless words from a few computer fighters and little all else. Capeeeeeeesh?! :D

Look, I wouldn't be against visiting PB. Germany's a bit of a trek though. And priority wise for me it's a bit behind getting up to San Fran and visiting Garrett Gee to fill some gaps.

You just have your arse hanging out on a public forum represented by more than one good teacher.

[anerlich]

So in a nutshell there is myself, Kevin, and Sean giving props to a guy who we think deserves it and totally changed our thinking on Ving Tsun. Then there is you Anerlich and Joy who throw sandwiches every time we do it. You, Anerlich and Joy know each other personally? Have you ever sparred or do you just big up each other because you think you are fighting a worthy cause?

I think you're probably doing a disservice to Sean by dragging him into your and Kev's jihad. Or your individual, separate jihads.

If you guys want to meet up online and sing Amazing Grace together (Was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see), good for you, but if you keep it up for too long the neighbours are going to start banging on the wall. Enough already!

As for changing your thinking, the impression you give is that maybe there wasn't much to change.

And yes, I have sparred and continue to do so. Injuries to prove it, not that I have to to any forum members.

A worthy cause? This is just a way to waste a bit of time at work. What have you been smoking?

I'm not bigging up Joy or Glenn. I'm bigging down you and Kev. Sue me.


Look, I wouldn't be against visiting PB. Germany's a bit of a trek though. And priority wise for me it's a bit behind getting up to San Fran and visiting Garrett Gee to fill some gaps.

Pretty much same here. Except I'd have John Will's, Robert Drysdale's, Marcelo Garcia's and Carlos Machado's gyms at the top of my list. And the Chapel of the Sacred Mirrors, Alex Grey's gallery/temple. I'm unlikely even to get to all of them.

There's more to martial arts and life than Wing Chun.

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFSdTi95OTE

In my lineage we call that a Huen Sau.

[Wayfaring]

Pretty much same here. Except I'd have John Will's, Robert Drysdale's, Marcelo Garcia's and Carlos Machado's gyms at the top of my list. And the Chapel of the Sacred Mirrors, Alex Grey's gallery/temple. I'm unlikely even to get to all of them.
Saw Carlos Machado last fall. He promoted my coach to two stripe black belt, and rolled with most of us. Fun times.

You are right there's a lot more to life and martial arts than wing chun.

[anerlich]

Saw Carlos Machado last fall. He promoted my coach to two stripe black belt, and rolled with most of us. Fun times.

You are right there's a lot more to life and martial arts than wing chun.

I was lucky enough to attend seminars by both Carlos and Jean Jacques last year. A chance JJ will be here again in April with Richard Norton. Rigan comes to Australia at least once a year as well, though he usually goes to Melbourne and I haven't seen him since 2007.

Don't even need to travel to the US to see top level martial artists, let alone Europe.

[GlennR]

I think you're probably doing a disservice to Sean by dragging him into your and Kev's jihad. Or your individual, separate jihads.

If you guys want to meet up online and sing Amazing Grace together (Was lost but now I'm found, was blind but now I see), good for you, but if you keep it up for too long the neighbours are going to start banging on the wall. Enough already!

As for changing your thinking, the impression you give is that maybe there wasn't much to change.

They dont get it Andrew.
Honestly, i think they are so besotted with PB that they see any criticism of their slightly obsessive behavior as a direct go at PB.

Its not from me and, i would confidently say, yourself and Joy.

But then we are all clueless as far as they are concerned.


And yes, I have sparred and continue to do so. Injuries to prove it, not that I have to to any forum members.


Doesnt count in their world


A worthy cause? This is just a way to waste a bit of time at work. What have you been smoking?

I'm not bigging up Joy or Glenn. I'm bigging down you and Kev. Sue me.


Same.



There's more to martial arts and life than Wing Chun.

Apparently not if your name is Graham or Kevin

[GlennR]

I was lucky enough to attend seminars by both Carlos and Jean Jacques last year. A chance JJ will be here again in April with Richard Norton. Rigan comes to Australia at least once a year as well, though he usually goes to Melbourne and I haven't seen him since 2007.

Don't even need to travel to the US to see top level martial artists, let alone Europe.

Nice.

As a MT guy im looking to attend John Wayne Parr s next seminar

[Graham H]

There's more to martial arts and life than Wing Chun.

I agree. Bickering over. I'm bored with it.

[GlennR]

I agree. Bickering over. I'm bored with it.

Good, fancy having a proper, exchange ideas etc conversation?

[Graham H]

Yes ok why not? Its been a while

[jimhalliwell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFSdTi95OTE


Hi

For me this is total nonsense! for any wing chun /ving tsun whatever your lineage its got to work! You would be blasted with the other hand. Nothing on this video is correct or safe to do! for example why at 1.30 are you moving from the o/s gate to i/s gate do you just want to get hit?

Jim.

[Graham H]

Maybe Phil could post a video of him using it in sparring with no co-operation from the other guy. If he can make it work then............fairplay to the guy I say.

[Vajramusti]

Hi

For me this is total nonsense! for any wing chun /ving tsun whatever your lineage its got to work! You would be blasted with the other hand. Nothing on this video is correct or safe to do! for example why at 1.30 are you moving from the o/s gate to i/s gate do you just want to get hit?

Jim.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sigh.Phil is just showing a version of the fook in motion. He is not showing a sparring session.
phil knows how to make his system wprk.

[Graham H]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sigh.Phil is just showing a version of the fook in motion. He is not showing a sparring session.
phil knows how to make his system wprk.

Yes but there is no such fook "version" in my system purely because it cannot work so if he can show it where it counts then I will take my hat off to him is all. What's wrong with that? Who asked you anyway?

Until then I agree with Jim. He would be in trouble if he tried that on somebody that is following up with another punch. That movement goes against every concept in Ving Tsun!

The other thing is that Phil tells his student which hand to punch with. Take all that away and we "may" be left with something that can function under pressure.

[Frost]

Yes but there is no such fook "version" in my system purely because it cannot work so if he can show it where it counts then I will take my hat off to him is all. What's wrong with that? Who asked you anyway?

Until then I agree with Jim. He would be in trouble if he tried that on somebody that is following up with another punch. That movement goes against every concept in Ving Tsun!

The other thing is that Phil tells his student which hand to punch with. Take all that away and we "may" be left with something that can function under pressure.

hands up all those who have a full contact fight record...and keep your hands up if you have had your students and their students fight full contact against students of other styles and have also posted video evidence of said fights from your students...looks round can’t see Kevin or grahams hands up but Phil’s is still raised.........:)

[Graham H]

hands up all those who have a full contact fight record...and keep your hands up if you have had your students and their students fight full contact against students of other styles and have also posted video evidence of said fights from your students...looks round can’t see Kevin or grahams hands up but Phil’s is still raised.........:)

My hands up but you never thought to ask that did you? Just assumed and because that's all you can do.

I don't care about Phils experience. I'm asking him to show that fook sau fantasy work in sparring. That is all.

Maybe you can do it instead?

[Frost]

My hands up but you never thought to ask that did you? Just assumed and because that's all you can do.

I don't care about Phils experience. I'm asking him to show that fook sau fantasy work in sparring. That is all.

Maybe you can do it instead?

I didn’t ask because I cant recall seeing any clips of you ior your students fighting on this forum, I must have missed them sorry can you post them again please? Phils posted his clips several times and like I said I apologise for mssing yours please repost :)

Why does that matter well he made his video based on his and his pupils full contact experience, said experience tells him it will work, and since he has trained guys to fight full contact and posted his guys doing this I put more stock in it that someone constantly mocking him who hasn’t done the same, but like I said if you wish to post the clips of your students or yourself fighting full contact ill say sorry

[wingchunIan]

Time out guys. This is a pointless argument on the one hand much of the heat stems from the manner of the posting, rather than a barbed "its crap and will never work" comment why not try a more engaging question such as "different approach to mine, how would you deal with the second punch if its thrown as a one two combination?" which would give the OP a chance to explain his / her perspective and might actually engender some intelligent discussion. On the other hand defensive responses pointing to clips of full contact tournaments as evidence of efficacy really only wash if they actually demonstrate the technique in question (or anything vaguely similar) being used and having watched most of the clips that Phil has posted I'm not aware of any such evidence.

[Graham H]

I didn’t ask because I cant recall seeing any clips of you ior your students fighting on this forum, I must have missed them sorry can you post them again please? Phils posted his clips several times and like I said I apologise for mssing yours please repost :)

I have none of me in competition and if I did why post them? They are not Ving Tsun. I wouldn't use Ving Tsun in the ring if I did the same as I wouldn't kick box in the street! :rolleyes:

Keep going in circles why don't we?


Why does that matter well he made his video based on his and his pupils full contact experience, said experience tells him it will work, and since he has trained guys to fight full contact and posted his guys doing this I put more stock in it that someone constantly mocking him who hasn’t done the same, but like I said if you wish to post the clips of your students or yourself fighting full contact ill say sorry

That video is not based on contact experience!!!!!!!!!! If it is then I want him to SHOW ME HOW HE DOES IT FFS!!!!!! :mad:

[jimhalliwell]

Time out guys. This is a pointless argument on the one hand much of the heat stems from the manner of the posting, rather than a barbed "its crap and will never work" comment why not try a more engaging question such as "different approach to mine, how would you deal with the second punch if its thrown as a one two combination?" which would give the OP a chance to explain his / her perspective and might actually engender some intelligent discussion. On the other hand defensive responses pointing to clips of full contact tournaments as evidence of efficacy really only wash if they actually demonstrate the technique in question (or anything vaguely similar) being used and having watched most of the clips that Phil has posted I'm not aware of any such evidence.

Hi

Im not here to make friends Ian or engage with some guy living out his wing chun fantasy on how good his fook is!
The only way that video demo would work would be if Phil was fighting a one armed man! Hey its only my opinion.

Jim.

[Graham H]

Hi

Im not here to make friends Ian or engage with some guy living out his wing chun fantasy on how good his fook is!
The only way that video demo would work would be if Phil was fighting a one armed man! Hey its only my opinion.

Jim.

.....or a man just stood there throwing controlled punches from leftfield knowing which and what is coming.

[Frost]

I have none of me in competition and if I did why post them? They are not Ving Tsun. I wouldn't use Ving Tsun in the ring if I did the same as I wouldn't kick box in the street! :rolleyes:

Keep going in circles why don't we?



That video is not based on contact experience!!!!!!!!!! If it is then I want him to SHOW ME HOW HE DOES IT FFS!!!!!! :mad:

so thats a no then on the videos? better put your hand down then :)

[Frost]

.....or a man just stood there throwing controlled punches from leftfield knowing which and what is coming.

thats a demo, not a fight, you should be used to demos in a controlled enviorment with no contact and agreed rules limiting what you can do......after all you are a PB student :)

[jimhalliwell]

thats a demo, not a fight, you should be used to demos in a controlled enviorment with no contact and agreed rules limiting what you can do......after all you are a PB student :)


Hi

I have done chi sau with PB (not for long just at a seminar) its no joke i can tell you that. I have stayed at Barry lees house and trained for weekends its no joke and with Barry at times it felt like i was fighting for my life. I'm not crazy about all WSL guys at all but these two are by far the best, light years ahead of all the other lineages i've seen!
Jim.

[Graham H]

thats a demo, not a fight, you should be used to demos in a controlled enviorment with no contact and agreed rules limiting what you can do......after all you are a PB student :)

Yes but that's not how it is! What else are you going to assume today? The sparring in our lineage is harder than anything else Ive done before. No need to prove anything to you mate!

[Wayfaring]

Yes but that's not how it is! What else are you going to assume today? The sparring in our lineage is harder than anything else Ive done before. No need to prove anything to you mate!

Got any clips so I don't continue to get the wrong impression that you guys don't hit each other and just do the slap and push dance?

[Frost]

Yes but that's not how it is! What else are you going to assume today? The sparring in our lineage is harder than anything else Ive done before. No need to prove anything to you mate!

im sure it is, its just amazing the camera always runs out of tape as soon as the chi sau stops and the sparring starts :D

[k gledhill]

hands up all those who have a full contact fight record...and keep your hands up if you have had your students and their students fight full contact against students of other styles and have also posted video evidence of said fights from your students...looks round can’t see Kevin or grahams hands up but Phil’s is still raised.........:)

Hands up if you ever had a fight without gloves, bare knuckle ? 1...2...over 40 my hands still up frosty.

[BPWT]

Kevin? :D

[Frost]

Hands up if you ever had a fight without gloves, bare knuckle ? 1...2...over 40 my hands still up frosty.

oh no another street tough guy with zero evidence to back up anything ....:)

yep my hands still up too kev :)

[k gledhill]

oh no another street tough guy with zero evidence to back up anything ....:)

yep my hands still up too kev :)

And no clips of it frosty ? Tsk tsk ; ).

[k gledhill]

Kevin? :D

The black and white looks more like my granddad ;) I am old but not that old.

[Frost]

And no clips of it frosty ? Tsk tsk ; ).

nope but hands up those who have put up clips of themselves doing anything vaguely martial in a competitive environment: sparring, chi sau, or lets say grappling for everyone to see..........
my hands up kev is yours....? :)

[k gledhill]

nope but hands up those who have put up clips of themselves doing anything vaguely martial in a competitive environment: sparring, chi sau, or lets say grappling for everyone to see..........
my hands up kev is yours....? :)

I never saw a clip of you ?
I have lots of clips, I only show them to my students, tutorial clips like pak sao, lap sao drills, chi-sao, other drills...forms with narrative, etc...teaching tools. I wouldn't sleep knowing I had pleased your trolling requests voluntarily ;) I also have hours of PB teaching, seminars etc...but these are never public.

[k gledhill]

My Grandfather Joe Gledhill ; )

[Frost]

I never saw a clip of you ?
I have lots of clips, I only show them to my students, tutorial clips like pak sao, lap sao drills, chi-sao, other drills...forms with narrative, etc...teaching tools. I wouldn't sleep knowing I had pleased your trolling requests voluntarily ;) I also have hours of PB teaching, seminars etc...but these are never public.

ive posted clips of myself in grappling comps before when asked to do so, and clips of training at one of the gyms i attend (if you look closely you can see me in the video for about 3 seconds) lol

no full contact bare knuckle clips im afraid but something is better than nothing,

Oh the old secret clips only to be shared with my students bit, :)

[k gledhill]

ive posted clips of myself in grappling comps before when asked to do so, and clips of training at one of the gyms i attend (if you look closely you can see me in the video for about 3 seconds) lol

no full contact bare knuckle clips im afraid but something is better than nothing,

Oh the old secret clips only to be shared with my students bit, :)

I never saw it...so it doesnt exist, sorry.

[Frost]

I never saw it...so it doesnt exist, sorry.

i can post again for you to laugh at just say the word :)

[k gledhill]

i can post again for you to laugh at just say the word :)

why are you waiting ? :D

[Yoshiyahu]

In my lineage we train San shou techniques with a partner to develop each technique...there are multiple techniques that can be used to stop a straight punch, an upper cut or hook...Basically you train the techniques, learn them, and which ever one your more comfortable with will flow naturally when you fight/spar!

But I suggest first try using each technique in sparring to see which one works for you. Everybody is built differently with different attributes. Use those that best suits you to your benefit. Personally i wouldnt use a fook sau to defend against an outside attack, Nor would I use a gan sau for an outside attack...I reserve the shorter techniques for inside fighting.

If someone throws a Jab i will use a fast pak or gum sao...If someone throws an upper cut Im not going to Low Bong Sao like some people suggest. I will use a low gum sao, low gan sao, or jut sao. For a hook or round punch I will use a Bil Gee, High bong or Wu sau what ever takes the most pressure off and cuts the punching arm force.

If your not sure about what techniques to use best..have a guy alot bigger than you throw medium power punches at you...an see which techniques hold up the best against various hits.

[Frost]

why are you waiting ? :D

here you go first one was my first ever grappling comp back in 03, long video i start at the 8min 37sec mark and i wouldnt watch it all my match goes on for ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuvIxtwl6lo

this was the next year and doesnt last as long this won me the light heavy title at submission league that year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7qy_XITvkg

a typical week at my MMA gym, blink and you miss me grappling at the 1.14 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmLLM4Pxb64

no kung fu im afraid

[GlennR]

here you go first one was my first ever grappling comp back in 03, long video i start at the 8min 37sec mark and i wouldnt watch it all my match goes on for ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuvIxtwl6lo

this was the next year and doesnt last as long this won me the light heavy title at submission league that year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7qy_XITvkg

a typical week at my MMA gym, blink and you miss me grappling at the 1.14 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmLLM4Pxb64

no kung fu im afraid

Where was the chi Sao!!!!!!;)

[k gledhill]

here you go first one was my first ever grappling comp back in 03, long video i start at the 8min 37sec mark and i wouldnt watch it all my match goes on for ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuvIxtwl6lo

this was the next year and doesnt last as long this won me the light heavy title at submission league that year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7qy_XITvkg

a typical week at my MMA gym, blink and you miss me grappling at the 1.14 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmLLM4Pxb64

no kung fu im afraid

Looks good, no VT ?

[LaRoux]

Hands up if you ever had a fight without gloves, bare knuckle ? 1...2...over 40 my hands still up frosty.

Raises hand.

Raises other hand for much more than that.

[Frost]

Looks good, no VT ?

you post your first :)
My wing chun comes from a vietnamese line with some hong kong mainland as well, no WSL so it wont be of interest for you and im more a bakmei guy these days :)

[Frost]

Where was the chi Sao!!!!!!;)

i actually did a sticky hands comp once, which quickly became full contact bare knuckle lol