Most important part of learning

[EarthDragon]

to get a different subject on here whats the most important thing to you about learning your art?
what did you start
why did you stay
what part do you like about it
what parts dont you like

[David Jamieson]

1. I started with tcma in my youth.
2. I enjoyed it, I stayed because I was enjoying doing it.
3. I like the abilities acquired and I like when the training pays off and shows.
4. I don't like the face games in tcma and the political or personal deceptions are low.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what did you start

TCMA, Kung Kuen.


why did you stay
DIdn't, because of moving to a different country ended up doing karate, judo, boxing and wrestling, then moved back to Canada and did TKD, kenjutsu, Judo and FMA.
Finally came back to TCMA with WC, then returned to Hung Kuen and also SPM.


what part do you like about it
The specialty kungs and forms.


what parts dont you like

The BS that is propagated by those that have little to no practical experience fighting trained fighters.

[wenshu]

what did you start
cocaine


why did you stay
I can stop anytime I want

http://totalfratmove.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/d32920c57353cc2f42e12cb7f21d03eb1303510324-590x396.jpg

[MightyB]

what did you start
The original Karate Kid movie, in elementary school, the idea of doing karate was fascinating.
why did you stay
Didn't, the instructor had to move away. A few years later, a friend told me about an amazing old man teaching some cool "karate" stuff. I went to see for myself and was amazed when I first watched 7* Praying Mantis Kung Fu. Stayed until I had to move about a decade later. Somewhere in that mix I saw UFC 1. Couldn't find BJJ and knew I had to cross train to keep it real, so I chose the next best option for ground fighting - Judo. Ironically it's the big throws that keeps me in that art.
what part do you like about it
Friendships that I've built through the years.
what parts dont you like
The constant in flow of newbies that have you reteaching the same ol' all the time. and veterans that are afraid to spar... and Higher than Thou attitudes.

[Featherstone]

what did you start
American Karate

why did you stay
Made it to blue belt then moved away. Took about ten years before I found Aikido which tne moved to Jui Jitsu / Judo / Kenjutsu / and finally Wah Lum and Batto Do. As you can see there was an odd progression but I had the martial bug. I stayed with the judo / jui jitsu for 10 years, achieved instructor rank then the school closed down and work ramped up, children were born etc. Now I study Wah Lum and Batto do.

what part do you like about it
The friendships that I've built through the years, learning and teaching.

what parts dont you like
MightyB, you and I think alike!

The constant in flux of newbies that have you reteaching the same ole all the time, and veterans that are afraid to spar... and Higher than Thou attitudes!

[EarthDragon]

Do you guys feel the need to leave your art or style to fill in gaps or holes that your style doesn't fulfill?

[SPJ]

what did you start
why did you stay
what part do you like about it
what parts dont you like

1. Shuai Jiao and Tan Tui.

2. extra curriculum, from high school onward.

3. able to do it right every time.

4. get hurt trying to do the throw or strike

plenty of 4.

however learn from 4.

:)

[jdhowland]

Do you guys feel the need to leave your art or style to fill in gaps or holes that your style doesn't fulfill?

In my case it's not a matter of leaving one art to find another that fills in the gaps but enlarging upon one through experience in others. For example, my jujitsu training has good ground work and submission techniques but the movements are based on grappling with little attention to strikes and a stylistic concern for safety. My cma has strikes, grappling, throws and even a little ground work but is not readily applicable to extended grappling on the ground. Given a choice I would stick with the cma because it is more inclusive and has better transitions among the various skills. Adding the ground work from jj to my base is easier than trying to add boxing and weapons skills to the jujitsu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you guys feel the need to leave your art or style to fill in gaps or holes that your style doesn't fulfill?

Even if I hadn't of left because of re-location I probably would have cross trained no matter what.
If combat effectiveness is paramount in one MA training then cross training ( or at least cross-testing) is crucial, indispensable really.
EX:
Judo has ground work but nothing to the degree of BJJ.
Hung Kuen had some edged weapon work but nothing to the degree of the FMA.
And so forth.

[pazman]

what did you start
I'm not sure if I started taekwondo as a kid before or after the karate kid movie, but it was pretty close to then. I did this until I was 18 and moved to university.

why did you stay?
I didn't. In university, I was introduced to TCMA (7stars mantis) through the university wushu club. It was fun and interesting. That experience was good. After the teacher left, I tried several other TCMA schools but found the intensity and the experience of the teachers to be very limited.

After university, I moved to Japan for six years where I practiced mostly Aikido and kickboxing, got some good experience in Judo and Kendo. Also during that time I traveled a lot in China and got a good introduction to Shaoliln gongfu. I managed to find a group in Osaka that trains Shaolin and met with them about once a month for fun.

Then I moved to Wuhan to teach at the sports school there for three years. I mostly trained with the professional Sanda program, but I was able to informally train Shaolin, Baji, qigong, etc as well. For one month I trained Wugulun Shaolin full time which was a very interesting experience. During my time in China, a lot of the traditional training I did was informally with friends and I taught them things like Aikido as well.

So, in essence, I train whatever I can where I live.

what part do you like about it

I enjoy the friendships I've made. TCMA itself is fascinating to study, and provides some historical context to the modern arts that I do.

what parts dont you like
Passive-agressiveness, superstitions, superiority complexes

[RickMatz]

The groupies.

uh, there ARE groupies, aren't there?

[wenshu]

The groupies.

uh, there ARE groupies, aren't there?

Nah man, they always want you to share the cocaine.

[jdhowland]

Nah man, they always want you to share the cocaine.

I suppose opium isn't the thing anymore, is it?

[EarthDragon]

I ask because it seems as though TCMA are being beat up on these boards with the MMA guys and I feel my system has everything I need with the exception of some higher level ground work which i usually work in with other teachers in my school.

But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon

[sanjuro_ronin]

I ask because it seems as though TCMA are being beat up on these boards with the MMA guys and I feel my system has everything I need with the exception of some higher level ground work which i usually work in with other teachers in my school.

But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon

Most systems have what most people need, as long as they are TRAINED properly.
That said, unless you test yourself with the highest level available to you, how do you know if your systems has what you need from it?
Granted for most that is a moot point BUT for those that are combat oriented, it is THE point.

[Bacon]

I ask because it seems as though TCMA are being beat up on these boards with the MMA guys and I feel my system has everything I need with the exception of some higher level ground work which i usually work in with other teachers in my school.

But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon

Because TCMA hasn't been able to prove its effectiveness compared to other proven effective arts for the past few decades at least.

I train in traditional arts in addition to more modern arts but I am aware of where they are strong and where they need supplementation, or replacement of their methodology entirely.

Effectiveness is first and foremost what matters. If others can prove their art effective in full contact fighting repeatedly then they have more evidence for their style being effective. Heck I've seen Vale Tudo matches where there were literally no rules. It doesn't make it that different from MMA with the exception of soccer kicks, spine strikes, back of the head, etc. Eye gouges and the like don't really make a difference and the guys who won with no rules are the same who would win with rules.

[jdhowland]

...it seems as though TCMA are being beat up on these boards with the MMA guys...

One of the reasons I started the "Observations" thread was to point out what TCMA has that is valuable. I didn't mean it had to be compared to mma or any other art in particular, but it is a different animal and worthy of being praised for what it can offer. You just can't separate it from its inherent cultural values without degrading it into something that belongs to pop culture.

[Kellen Bassette]

But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon

I think cross training is very good, it gives you more perspective. I think it's important to spar with people from different disciplines and backgrounds, it makes you better, more well rounded. People from the same school may have a tendency to approach sparring/fighting in a very similar fashion.

I like the MMA guys because I know they're combat oriented. With TMA guys you have some that are and a lot that aren't. Sometimes the ones who are combat oriented don't get enough of what they need/want on account of all the other students with different interests.

[LaRoux]

what did you start
This and that.


why did you stay
The effectiveness.


what part do you like about it
That part that let's me know what is b.s and what is legit.

what parts dont you like
The parts that are b.s.

[LaRoux]

Do you guys feel the need to leave your art or style to fill in gaps or holes that your style doesn't fulfill?

Leave? No. Pick up anything from anywhere that is useful and works? Yes.

[Kellen Bassette]

Leave? No. Pick up anything from anywhere that is useful and works? Yes.

Would you look at that? Sooner or later everyone has a post I like. :D

[LaRoux]

I ask because it seems as though TCMA are being beat up on these boards with the MMA guys and I feel my system has everything I need with the exception of some higher level ground work which i usually work in with other teachers in my school.

But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon

If you think one system has it all, you simply haven't experienced enough things yet.

[EarthDragon]

Because TCMA hasn't been able to prove its effectiveness compared to other proven effective arts for the past few decades at least.

Bacon is this your personal experience or are you speaking what others have done and said?

Because mantis has proven its effectiveness since I was first introduced to it 24 years ago.

laroux

Leave? No. Pick up anything from anywhere that is useful and works? Yes.

I agree

[wenshu]

But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon

The NJSACB Unified Rules of MMA was a dozen years ago.

It hardly qualifies as a bandwagon; it is an established and persistent reality.

[maxattck]

I started doing kenpo at 15, then switched to judo and shotakan at 16 till about 18. Then girls, bars, school life in general got in the way. Started training again at 32 in CLF till about 35. Another break from training for about a year or two. Decided to get my lazy ass back in gear again so I tried WC And hung ga, I liked the hung ga, but the school was forms only. WC I never really bonded with. I then switched to BJJ. Been training BJJ for the last 4 to 5 years (just got my purple belt recently). I missed striking though and wanted to spare, so for the last year and a half have been training kyokushin with the BJJ.

[Bacon]

Bacon is this your personal experience or are you speaking what others have done and said?

Because mantis has proven its effectiveness since I was first introduced to it 24 years ago.


Really, so name me a full mantis only guys who are nhb, vale tudo, or mma bigs shots. Can you name me even one of repute? Didn't think so.

[JamesC]

Omg every thread turns into this. This forum is getting ridiculous

[EarthDragon]

wensu

The NJSACB Unified Rules of MMA was a dozen years ago.
It hardly qualifies as a bandwagon; it is an established and persistent reality.

yes I realize this but it has become like band wagon recently you must admit. why else are we having the same discussion mm vs TMA on every thread, ?

Bacon, first please answer my question,


and Really, so name me a full mantis only guys who are nhb, vale tudo, or mma bigs shots. Can you name me even one of repute? Didn't think so.

As I said many times Joel used 8 step praying mantis in the UFC and was successful and won. So YES.

also ALL fights are not measured in the ring brother, my mantis has been effective in REAL fights, not just organized sport fights.

[Bacon]

As I said many times Joel used 8 step praying mantis in the UFC and was successful and won. So YES.
One crap fighter who won against crap fighters when the talent pool wasn't that good. THAT is you answer? HAHAHAHA!


also ALL fights are not measured in the ring brother, my mantis has been effective in REAL fights, not just organized sport fights.

So you have t3h d34dly for teh realz streetz. What a joke. Vale Tudo matches have no rules. Nhb has few rules. MMA has only a slight amount more. It's the best testing ground for skills, the only place you're going to find opponents of any worth, and the only way you can show evidence of your level of skill as shown by your level of opponent and your fight record. Even if you use your **** argument the Thai boxers, wrestlers, boxers, bjjers, kickboxers, etc. still have a leg up on you because they can win against skilled opponents and in "real fights." So they still have you beat.

Essentially if you cling to that argument what you're saying is your style and the other TCMA styles can only beat untrained yahoos when you can sort to attacks like eye gouging or bottling someone because you can't win against anyone of skill while fighting on even ground.

[EarthDragon]

Bacon


One crap fighter who won against crap fighters when the talent pool wasn't that good. THAT is you answer? HAHAHAHA!

dude whats with constant insults? why would call someone a crap fighter? are YOU good enough to be in the UFC? whats your professional record at ? so if you insult others calling him crap then what kind of fighter are YOU? less than crap?



Vale Tudo matches have no rules. Nhb has few rules. MMA has only a slight amount more.

LOL no rules? you seriously posted that? I shouldn't even bother to respond to that posts as you are getting a little out of hand. shall I copy and paste the rule set for you?
Weight classes:
Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.

Bout duration:
All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.

Fouls:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Ways To Win:
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.
Referee may Restart the round:
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish.


I dont know how you fight but the fights I have been in and theirs a lot as I was a bad kid while growing up in an Italian neighborhood in NY, so I would do all the above and whatever it takes to win or get away to safety



It's the best testing ground for skills, the only place you're going to find opponents of any worth, and the only way you can show evidence of your level of skill as shown by your level of opponent and your fight record.

opponents of any worth? so your saying there not good fighter and tough *******s that dont compete in the whole world? think about your statement. Im sure there some pretty tough guys i prison whom dont compete you can find a worthy opponent in that environment dont you think?


Essentially if you cling to that argument what you're saying is your style and the other TCMA styles can only beat untrained yahoos when you can sort to attacks like eye gouging or bottling someone because you can't win against anyone of skill while fighting on even ground.

when and where did I say that? but let me assure you when your in the streets no one asks HOW you won a fight IF you won.

PS you can get your point across without insults to whom people you don't know

PSS if your so bad please post your professional record from online so they we may see it otherwise you have no room to put others down for their accomplishments if you haven't accomplished it on your own. be well

[Bacon]

dude whats with constant insults? why would call someone a crap fighter? are YOU good enough to be in the UFC? whats your professional record at ? so if you insult others calling him crap then what kind of fighter are YOU? less than crap?


It's not an insult, it's an objective assessment. It doesn't take a pro fighter to recognize the drastic change in the talent pool of the UFC from when he competed. The guys have only gotten better and better in most cases. Now looks at his record 2-4-0. That's not exactly stellar for any time period in the UFC and even less so when we take into account the talent pool of the day and who he won against.


LOL no rules? you seriously posted that? I shouldn't even bother to respond to that posts as you are getting a little out of hand. shall I copy and paste the rule set for you?
Yep. Vale Tudo matches have no rules. The ones from nhb and mma if you removed, the same fights would still be winning and you wouldn't see TCMA guys winning. They can't even win WITH the rules.




I dont know how you fight but the fights I have been in and theirs a lot as I was a bad kid while growing up in an Italian neighborhood in NY, so I would do all the above and whatever it takes to win or get away to safet
We're not talking about social factors, element of surprise, etc. We're talking about a straight up comparison of hand to hand combative skills and TCMA has no evidence for being effective compared to the other styles which have a wealth of victories in full contact fighting.




opponents of any worth? so your saying there not good fighter and tough *******s that dont compete in the whole world? think about your statement. Im sure there some pretty tough guys i prison whom dont compete you can find a worthy opponent in that environment dont you think?
Member Kimbo slice. Oooh he was such bad man. Then he got his rear end handed to him because fighting nobodies and fighting people who actually know what they're doing who weight the same or more than you are two different matters.



PSS if your so bad please post your professional record from online so they we may see it otherwise you have no room to put others down for their accomplishments if you haven't accomplished it on your own. be well
and again if your art or any TCMA has any fighters of worth besides one guy with a 2-4-0 record in a less than stellar talent pool feel free to post them up. As I said there are plenty of wrestlers, boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, bjjers, etc who I can point. All you've pointed to is one guy with a crap record from a less than stellar talent pool. Not exactly your shining star expectantly considering he's your only example.

[EarthDragon]

It's not an insult, it's an objective assessment. It doesn't take a pro fighter to recognize the drastic change in the talent pool of the UFC from when he competed.

so joyce gracie dan servean ken smarock oleg taktaroff where all scrubs and not good fighters in their day? LOl anret you basing your weak argument on BJJ???????


Now looks at his record 2-4-0. That's not exactly stellar for any time period in the UFC and even less so when we take into account the talent pool of the day and who he won against.

you failed to post your record.



Yep. Vale Tudo matches have no rules.

again stop talking out of your butt and do a little research.... From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia notice it says limited NOT NO RULES. your wrong.



Vale tudo (Portuguese pronunciation: [ˈvali ˈtudu]; meaning "everything allowed", or "anything goes") are full-contact unarmed combat events, with a limited number of rules, that became popular in Brazil during the 20th century.[1] Vale Tudo has been considered a combat sport by some observers.[2] While Vale Tudo uses techniques from many martial art styles, making it similar to modern mixed martial arts competitions, it is a distinct style in its own right.[citation needed]



The ones from nhb and mma if you removed, the same fights would still be winning and you wouldn't see TCMA guys winning. They can't even win WITH the rules.

thats a speculation and your personal opinion. not fact
also why do you discredit TCMA so... did you teacher not teach you did you pay too much money for calsse sand feel you didnt get what you wanted? or have you never taken TCMA
and just feel the need to bash something you dont know about based on watching TV?



We're not talking about social factors, element of surprise, etc. We're talking about a straight up comparison of hand to hand combative skills and TCMA has no evidence for being effective compared to the other styles which have a wealth of victories in full contact fighting.

element of surprise is in all fights. all TMCA and TMA TJMA MMA is hand to hand combative skills.
where do you think MMA came from? you seem to exclude TMCA form MMA if it wernt for TMCA there is nothing to Mix hence mixed martial arts, dont you think part of that mix has Chinese kung fu in it? if not your extremely ignorant



and again if your art or any TCMA has any fighters of worth besides one guy with a 2-4-0 record in a less than stellar talent pool feel free to post them up.

I unlike you are posting the actual facts of someone I know and trained and trained with. Im sure theirs others i dont know about, but to say theirs none is obviously incorrect on your part and you sweeping assumptions and opinion mean nothing show the facts.


As I said there are plenty of wrestlers, boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, bjjers, etc who I can point. All you've pointed to is one guy with a crap record from a less than stellar talent pool. Not exactly your shining star expectantly considering he's your only example.[/QUOTE]

see above. I am proving your are wrong as you said n NO ONE that does TMCA can win or is any good. yet he won in the UFC using praying mantis , as you say crap record or not AGAIN quite dodging my question POST YOUR record. if you dont have one STOP putting others down who have accomplished more than you ever could. your beginning to sound like mouth boxer/arm chair martial artist. no offence, but lighten up on the crap talking and discuss without emotion.:)

[MightyB]

Do you guys feel the need to leave your art or style to fill in gaps or holes that your style doesn't fulfill?

It's hard to explain... it's kind've the Bruce Lee thing. It's not necessarily that there's anything wrong with the styles I participate in, I just go where the wind blows so to speak. I like martial arts. I like all martial arts. I do find that MMA and BJJ guys are some of the most fun to hang with... even though I hold no rank in BJJ, I love to go and throw down with them. In the beginning, I did pretty much get my arse handed to me, now I hold my own. I guess I go to where I feel the fighters are. If a new guy came to town teaching TCMA and had a rep for throwing down, I'd be game - I'd show up to see what it's about. Not to be a d!ck, or to prove I'm tough, just to see what they got and to train with them if it's worth it to me. I'm not about doing the super formal heireichy thing anymore since I feel I've earned my keep as a martial artist. I'm ok being a white belt again, that's not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don't feel they earned the right to have that attitude.

For what it's worth, my personal "hero" in the martial arts is my Sigung Chung Ho Yin.

[EarthDragon]

MightB


If a new guy came to town teaching TCMA and had a rep for throwing down, I'd be game - I'd show up to see what it's about.

agreed I always check out other schools.

I had a so called mantis guy without traceable lineage come from Cleveland advertising and teaching 8 step . I honestly asked him if he would be willing to teach me weapons as i know none. he was all gung ho then after checking my credentials and who I was he said he wouldn't know enough to teach me anything. I said you would if it were weapons again I don't know any. I felt he might be intimidated and avoided me after that. wouldn't even show me a weapon set and closed his kwoon 8 months later and moved back to Cleveland. I also have had teachers walk into my school nad challenge me. Im all for it, if you cant back up what you teach and preach then you have no business owning a school . i hate fat out fo shape teachers/shrfu's




I'm ok being a white belt again, that's not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don't feel they earned the right to have that attitude.

I always consider myself a student and there's always someone whom can teach you something, this is why even after 31 years I don't feel master or pretending to be called master is in my vocabulary.

[MightyB]

Not to be a d!ck, or to prove I'm tough, just to see what they got and to train with them if it's worth it to me. I'm not about doing the super formal heireichy thing anymore since I feel I've earned my keep as a martial artist. I'm ok being a white belt again, that's not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don't feel they earned the right to have that attitude.


this came off a lot more arrogant sounding than I meant. It's hard for me to explain what I mean by what I wrote, but basically I read a book by the guy who invented Crazy Monkey Boxing. In it he described how he treats everyone as adults with something to contribute and he acknowledges that everyone has goals, strengths, and weaknesses that they bring to the class. I like that attitude and now purposefully seek that out when I visit schools. It's like how you, ED, described the other 8step Sifu - that even if you outranked him, you respected his ability to teach you weapon arts. It's that respect that you give to other adults, that professionalism, that I'm trying to describe. If a place or instructor lacks that courtesy, that's what angers me.

[EarthDragon]

you didnt come across as arrogant , no worries. you always have positive and informative things to say in your posts.

that author has the true meaning. the minute you think you cant learn from someone is the minute you rest on your laurels. and that's never a good thing

[Bacon]

so joyce gracie dan servean ken smarock oleg taktaroff where all scrubs and not good fighters in their day? LOl anret you basing your weak argument on BJJ???????
Did he beat either of them? Did he give either of them a run for their money? Did he even make it to fighting with either of them? And by. Comparison to today's fighters they are incomplete fighters and would get their rear ends handed to them.


you failed to post your record.
My record is not the subject here. As I said it doesn't take a pro fighter to see that a 2-4-0 record isn't good from any time period let alone from the worse talent pool of back in the day. And again this is your ONLY example.


again stop talking out of your butt and do a little research.... From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia notice it says limited NOT NO RULES. your wrong.

Vale tudo (Portuguese pronunciation: [ˈvali ˈtudu]; meaning "everything allowed", or "anything goes") are full-contact unarmed combat events, with a limited number of rules, that became popular in Brazil during the 20th century.[1] Vale Tudo has been considered a combat sport by some observers.[2] While Vale Tudo uses techniques from many martial art styles, making it similar to modern mixed martial arts competitions, it is a distinct style in its own right.[citation needed]


thats a speculation and your personal opinion. not fact
You're right in that it is speculation but of two fighters. One is a fighter who fights in high level full contact competition and wins on a regular basis. One is a TCMAer and has never been able to win even an amateur level full contact competition or has never competed period. You take away the rules and you honestly think the TCMAerwill magically acquire these incredible fighting powers or that the full contact fighter won't be cognizant of the fact he can be hit in the throa/eye/spine/etc?



also why do you discredit TCMA so... did you teacher not teach you did you pay too much money for calsse sand feel you didnt get what you wanted? or have you never taken TCMA
and just feel the need to bash something you dont know about based on watching TV?
I have taken TCMA and I currently train in a TCMA but I am fully aware of what it is good at and not good at. Some of the techniques in TCMA are good but many aren't. I don't discredit TCMA. I don't have to. It does that all by itself. Look at the empirical evidence. You and others go on about how good TCMA is for fighting but as I said not one TCMAer can you find who has beaten even ONE high level opponent in the last 20 years. Not one.


element of surprise is in all fights. all TMCA and TMA TJMA MMA is hand to hand combative skills.
where do you think MMA came from? you seem to exclude TMCA form MMA if it wernt for TMCA there is nothing to Mix hence mixed martial arts, dont you think part of that mix has Chinese kung fu in it? if not your extremely ignorant
Really. Again my question remains. One. Show me one TCMAer in the past 20 years who uses TCMA for striking and grappling, without cross training, who has beaten a high level competor.


I unlike you are posting the actual facts of someone I know and trained and trained with. Im sure theirs others i dont know about, but to say theirs none is obviously incorrect on your part and you sweeping assumptions and opinion mean nothing show the facts.



No you're trying to prove that one guy in the past 20 years with a 2-4-0 record against nobody opponents from a comparably worse talent pool, one where the highest level guys would get destroyed by today's competitors, is some kind of validation of your style and TCMA in general. He's the only example of a TCMAer even being in a high level competition you can find and he's not exactly a shining star.


see above. I am proving your are wrong as you said n NO ONE that does TMCA can win or is any good. yet he won in the UFC using praying mantis , as you say crap record or not AGAIN quite dodging my question POST YOUR record. if you dont have one STOP putting others down who have accomplished more than you ever could. your beginning to sound like mouth boxer/arm chair martial artist. no offence, but lighten up on the crap talking and discuss without emotion.:)
There's no emotion whatsoever. Just cool, calculated assessment. And my record doesn't enter into it. I don't have to have a better record to tell you he's crap by comparison even to the low level opponents he lost to. Why don't you ask Joe Rogan about his mma record. Oh wait he doesn't have one. But both he and I have been watching the UFC and other full contact fighting competitions long enough to tell you what's what.

I didn't say no one could win using TCMA ever. I said "show me a TCMAer who has won in the past couple decades in full contact fighting against high level competition."

Now if Mr. Sutton had beaten any of the high level competitors even of the day I'd give you kudos and admit I was wrong but the only example you've given is a 2-4-0 record against terrible fighters.

[EarthDragon]

? And by. Comparison to today's fighters they are incomplete fighters and would get their rear ends handed to them.


LOl so the guys are mentioned are incomplete fighters? LOL you watch too much spike TV




My record is not the subject here. As I said it doesn't take a pro fighter to see that a 2-4-0 record isn't good from any time period let alone from the worse talent pool of back in the day. And again this is your ONLY example.


YES it IS! you bash other people and name call without having done anything worth while yourself, this shows small character in man
Quote:



Vale tudo (Portuguese pronunciation: [ˈvali ˈtudu]; meaning "everything allowed", or "anything goes") are full-contact unarmed combat events, with a limited
number of rules, that became popular in Brazil during the 20th century.

Bacon bacon bacon you just posted 2 times theres NO rules 3 times then you posted a descrption that plainly says limited. again your wrong


thats a speculation and your personal opinion. not fact


You're right in that it is speculation but of two fighters. One is a fighter who fights in high level full contact competition and wins on a regular basis. One is a TCMAer and has never been able to win even an amateur level full contact competition or has never competed period. You take away the rules and you honestly think the TCMA rwill magically acquire these incredible fighting powers or that the full contact fighter won't be cognizant of the fact he can be hit in the throa/eye/spine/etc?


so you want to compare athlete that is a high level fighter and competitor to a guy who doesn't fight competitively or on a regular basis? really this is your argument.?


I have seen a girl knock out a guy in a bar fight. she got a lucky shot, yes you can win in a fight anyway you can. I saw a body builder twice the size of a college kid fall to his knees when the kid hit the bodyt building in the throat with his key chain. I have sen many situations that the tougher bigger badder person doesnt always win, again the street different than the controlled ring. But please dont be so one sided you can fathom someone other than a MMA guy can win fights? come on Bacon, you cant be narrow minded.



I have taken TCMA and I currently train in a TCMA but I am fully aware of what it is good at and not good at. Some of the techniques in TCMA are good but many aren't. I don't discredit TCMA. I don't have to. It does that all by itself. Look at the empirical evidence. You and others go on about how good TCMA is for fighting but as I said not one TCMAer can you find who has beaten even ONE high level opponent in the last 20 years. Not one.


wow paragraph of the thread. so you take TCMA but your not good enough at it to win fights? but you dont do MMA?? but yet your the cheerleader of th4 bandwagon? WTF LOL what happened to this thread??????????




Again my question remains. One. Show me one TCMAer in the past 20 years who uses TCMA for striking and grappling, without cross training, who has beaten a high level competitor.

never ever did I say you shouldn't cross train,, your ridiculous argument since the beginning is that TMCA doesn't work and only MMA does.

I teach and I cross train so do my students I have BJJ aikdo boxing and of course kung fu anlong with wrestling coaches in my complex and we all train with each other

again I unlike you are posting the actual facts not getting my resuultds form spkie TV
. Im sure theirs others i dont know about, but to say theirs none is obviously incorrect on your part and you sweeping assumptions and opinion mean nothing show the facts.



Now if Mr. Sutton had beaten any of the high level competitors even of the day I'd give you kudos and admit I was wrong but the only example you've given is a 2-4-0 record against terrible fighters.

I can only vouch for what I knwo I do not unlike you make sweeping assumption statement like NOONE, EVER, NEVER when you say these phrases they are obviously incorrect as you cant know about every fight all over the world.

its like when the say champion of the world, or world title.... yet the guy only fights in the US its all media hype BS.

again I thin oyur watching to much ultimate fighter and spike TV.

PS iif you train TCMA and it doest work as you say why are you still training it?

[David Jamieson]

Please try to communicate with some respect for each other.

-Bacon. you're being a troll and you know it.

-everyone else, stop feeding him.

That is all.

[Bacon]

never ever did I say you shouldn't cross train,, your ridiculous argument since the beginning is that TMCA doesn't work and only MMA does.

I can only vouch for what I knwo I do not unlike you make sweeping assumption statement like NOONE, EVER, NEVER when you say these phrases they are obviously incorrect as you cant know about every fight all over the world.
Let me break down my argument into smalle bites for you because you seem to have missed and misunderstood it:
1. No TCMAer has won against a high level opponent in full contact fight in the past 20 years. (it would be big news if they had)
2. There are certain valuable things to take from TCMA but a fairly large portion of the training is ineffective or missing in certain aspects. The arts which have proven themselves successful are superior in training and technique because they have proven so.
3. All full contact fighting looks pretty much the same in a free fighting environemnt whether it's karate, mantis, bagua, etc. but boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, wrestlers, bjjers, and even the few judoka and samboists who've done well, train the way they fight and fight better than the TCMAers because... Read point #1
4. You have no basis for saying TCMA is effective, scientific, or what have you in comparison to other arts because...Read point #1



PS iif you train TCMA and it doest work as you say why are you still training it?

Because there are a few techniques and elements of it which are good and can be effective if trained the right way. TCMA just does not train in the most effective manner as evidenced by point #1

The point is that TCMA used to win lei tai matches and possibly even other inter art competitions but hasn't done so for a long time. Either the other arts have gotten better, TCMA has gotten worse, both, or it wasn't that good to begin with (although I think the last point is less likely).



-Bacon. you're being a troll and you know it.


Are you seriously saying that requiring empirical evidence to back up statements is trolling? Because honestly that's all I'm doing.

I think ED may be a stand up guy in real life but I'm working from an evidence based system and he's not. That's all. I have nothing against him except that.

[EarthDragon]

1. No TCMAer has won against a high level opponent in full contact fight in the past 20 years. (it would be big news if they had)

big news to wqho? CNN but may I ask from where are you getting your information from the UFC? do you follow e3very sport fight in the world? and what do you mean by high level?



2. There are certain valuable things to take from TCMA but a fairly large portion of the training is ineffective or missing in certain aspects.

I agree and disagree while there may be SOME things that just dont work, like in all MA there are way more that do but thats depending on the individual. I can make things work that maybe someone else cant and visa versa.


The arts which have proven themselves successful are superior in training and technique because they have proven so.

TMCA has proven itsself for thousands of years. no point here


3. All full contact fighting looks pretty much the same in a free fighting environemnt whether it's karate, mantis, bagua, etc. but boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, wrestlers, bjjers, and even the few judoka and samboists who've done well, train the way they fight and fight better than the TCMAers because... Read point #1

agree but why single out TMCA in that list I train the way I fight I do TMCA, you cant say better based on the art its the individual I know TKD people that can beat up karate guys and so forth its not the art its how you execute it.


4. You have no basis for saying TCMA is effective, scientific, or what have you in comparison to other arts because...Read point #1

If there's no basis why is it still taught and why are millions of people still doing it. again this is your personal opinion and why are you still training in a style that you say hasd no basis?


TCMA just does not train in the most effective manner as evidenced by point #1

again personal POV, this measn nothing to others......also effective for what? you said you dont compete so why do you care if it works or doesnt work for other people


The point is that TCMA used to win lei tai matches and possibly even other inter art competitions but hasn't done so for a long time. Either the other arts have gotten better, TCMA has gotten worse, both, or it wasn't that good to begin with (although I think the last point is less likely).

theres watering down in all arts bacon stop trashing 1 out of hundreds.


Are you seriously saying that requiring empirical evidence to back up statements is trolling? Because honestly that's all I'm doing.

name calling and belittling joel is not called for, I beleive david was speaking of this. unless you fight him and beat him I would consider him much tougher and better than you. so lets just drop the derogatory remarks against someone whom you dont know, thats vary immature


I think ED may be a stand up guy in real life but I'm working from an evidence based system and he's not. That's all. I have nothing against him except that.

I cant say this again ...your basing off your opinion no NO evidence ever. everything you have said is about how you feel. nothing to back it up, no evidence. and yes I am a very stand up nice person, but you gotta present different opinions not just say mines better than yours. otherwise we would all think the same and that would be boring.

[Jimbo]

AFAIK, there are fewer instances, if any, of FMA or Silat practitioners fighting in, much less winning in, MMA contests that CMAs. Yet these arts are still very valuable, and one would be incorrect to assume that they can't be effective for the purposes they were designed for.

[EarthDragon]

thank you jimbo, its seems as bacon has a one sided view only I am trying to make him see differently but people can be stubborn :D

[omarthefish]

It's hard to explain... it's kind've the Bruce Lee thing. It's not necessarily that there's anything wrong with the styles I participate in, I just go where the wind blows so to speak. I like martial arts. I like all martial arts. I do find that MMA and BJJ guys are some of the most fun to hang with... even though I hold no rank in BJJ, I love to go and throw down with them. In the beginning, I did pretty much get my arse handed to me, now I hold my own. I guess I go to where I feel the fighters are. If a new guy came to town teaching TCMA and had a rep for throwing down, I'd be game - I'd show up to see what it's about. Not to be a d!ck, or to prove I'm tough, just to see what they got and to train with them if it's worth it to me. I'm not about doing the super formal heireichy thing anymore since I feel I've earned my keep as a martial artist. I'm ok being a white belt again, that's not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don't feel they earned the right to have that attitude.

For what it's worth, my personal "hero" in the martial arts is my Sigung Chung Ho Yin.

Three cheers for that post!!! :D

Between that and the video trying out the leg bite thing you earned some serious interwbz cred. It's not as good as street cred but it's something . . . :p

[SoCo KungFu]

TMCA has proven itsself for thousands of years. no point here


I don't care about the rest of the argument between you two. But this point right here I have to address.

1) I'm going to grant you the benefit of the doubt in the above, it could be argued but its irrelevant to the next point that is more important.

2) What TCMA has done 2000, 1000, 50, 10, 5 years ago means absolutely nothing. If it is not viable TODAY, then it will die. That is simple and basic adaptation. This is where it is failing quite miserably. Its been years now that people have been shouting that MMA is a fad. No, its here to stay. That is reality. The nature of self defense is changing, that is reality. Either TCMA (or any other TMA for that matter) changes or it goes extinct.

Evolution trends toward the most efficient use of energy output vs gain. Dogmatically clinging to the energetically inefficient (low probability) techniques for the simple sake of tradition, does not produce positive fitness. Even if by some chance, some exceptional few, can make them work...that's still simply an example of specialization. Want to know what happens in nature to specialists? They get out competed by the generalists that can occupy any niche. Well not any, but you get the idea.

This isn't just an issue of TMA. Its rampant in politics, morals, religion...you name it.

TDLR: Either it works TODAY, demonstrably so, or it dies. End of story. Right now, its dying. And that's a shame, because as someone who also studied northern mantis as my first style of martial arts, it was fun. For a time. But there's a very obvious flaw in TCMA. And very very few are addressing it.

[EarthDragon]

) What TCMA has done 2000, 1000, 50, 10, 5 years ago means absolutely nothing. If it is not viable TODAY, then it will die.

I believe TCMA is still very viable and still loved by many even the non fighters competitors there will always be people whom study the Chinese arts as well as every other art.


Its been years now that people have been shouting that MMA is a fad. No, its here to stay. That is reality. The nature of self defense is changing, that is reality. Either TCMA (or any other TMA for that matter) changes or it goes extinct.

I would not say its a fad either but lets be real MMA is just that MMA mantis has 14 style in it I consider that MMA. mixing styles together is not a recent/modern thing.


Evolution trends toward the most efficient use of energy output vs gain. Dogmatically clinging to the energetically inefficient (low probability) techniques for the simple sake of tradition, does not produce positive fitness.
agreed, however every style has inefficient tech. but any excersize produces positive fitness.



TDLR: Either it works TODAY, demonstrably so, or it dies. End of story. Right now, its dying. And that's a shame, because as someone who also studied northern mantis as my first style of martial arts, it was fun. For a time. But there's a very obvious flaw in TCMA. And very very few are addressing it.

It will never die, it may have changed but ti will not die. Perhaps if there was better teachers not giving aw3ay sashes and wearing silk pj doing forms then it woud be tightened up and higher standards for testing came into place, also accreditation you have a lot of unskilled so called sifu out there teaching with inadequate fighting experience Turing out sub par students. but the same can be said for all arts not just the TMCA

[RenDaHai]

Detractors of TCMA take heed:

What is your suggestion then?

Does the existence of TCMA actually make you angry? Do you want it all destroyed or something?

You are basing the utility of Martial Arts on a very specific situation:

2 people who both WANT to fight
Against a single opponent in a controlled environment
Without FEAR of death/prosecution/friends or family in danger or any consequences
Who's goal/need is the winning of the fight and Vanity and Reward
Who can only WIN by destroying the opponent
Who are both subject to the SAME rules, which they KNOW beforehand.

When none of these conditions are in place do you really think exactly the same methods apply? This should question whether the techniques and tactics you use are always going to be better than TCMA. Don't just skim the above conditions, think about their implications, especially on the mental state of the fighter.



Secondly Martial Arts is not brawling. The perfect Martial Art is one which can defeat its opponent without harming him. I realise this is possible with submission, and Jiujitsu is a great traditional art for this. Does this principle apply to your view of Martial Arts?


Thirdly, Not all people are aggressive or have the ability to commit violence, but they can still use Martial Arts to defend themselves. Some people will find an opening but will pull their punch short before hitting its target because of the psychological difficulty in hitting another person. Do you think MMA is a good art for them? Do you realise they might even be in the majority of people?


Fourthly, The utility of an art is entirely in your mind. You can apply it however your mind is capable of abstracting. Many people will go through their lives without actually fighting. Their time spent MA needs to be applied to their life in many other ways. Is Mediation useless? TCMA are Martial Arts but many of them are used as a launching pad for deeper philosophies and for many this is a major part of their art. What is the goal of your training? Should it make you less inclined or more inclined towards violent behaviour?

[Bacon]

big news to wqho? CNN but may I ask from where are you getting your information from the UFC? do you follow e3very sport fight in the world? and what do you mean by high level?
Don't have to, it would be front page news in any full contact fight org if a TCMA guy was suddenly tearing through opponents. And the burden of proof is on you to prove that they exist, not me to prove that they don't.

And by high level I mean full of good competitors. There's full contact fighting competitions which have better competitors than others. The UFC happens to be the most high level organization at the moment but there are others like Bellator for example or even defunct organizations like Pride and Pancrase. The best competiton are found in the high level orgs where you'll find a smattering of folks who win on a regular basis against oth high level competitors and you find folks with track records (some pretty stellar ones too) as NCAA wrestlers, pro kickboxers and Thai boxers, bjj blackbelts, etc. They are and they beat guys with incredible full contact records.


I agree and disagree while there may be SOME things that just dont work, like in all MA there are way more that do but thats depending on the individual. I can make things work that maybe someone else cant and visa versa.
Good for you but no one thus far has been able to make TCMA techniques, ones that aren't found and better in other arts like kickboxing and the like, work against high level competition. There have been no TCMA guys winning high level competitons.


TMCA has proven itsself for thousands of years. no point here
It went on great for a long time but seems to have faltered in the past few decades, likely because of the kind of complacency you're pushing right now. Before TCMAers were gung ho to fight and win. Now you're content to sit on the sidelines.


agree but why single out TMCA in that list I train the way I fight I do TMCA, you cant say better based on the art its the individual I know TKD people that can beat up karate guys and so forth its not the art its how you execute it.
You may fight the way you train TCMA but no one who does that has ever beat high level competiton. I know TCMA isn't the only one. There are similar issues with other arts but we are discussing TCMA and you've been trying to defend an indefensible position and now you and others are starting to back up and go to things like "but other arts can't win too so why are you picking on TCMA."
And yes there have been a few judoka, karateka, capoeraists, TKDers in high level competition so good for them. Because it's not about whether kickboxing is better than muay Thai or if bjj is better than wrestling. They all have very similar techniques and training methodologies and they're the ones who succeed in high level competitions.

There are criticisms I level at judo which are why you generally only find Olympic level judoka like Karo Parisian and Ronda Rousey succeeding with judo waza in high level competitions. So it's not just TCMA but TCMA is one of the worst because there are constantly people going on about how its a good method of fighting when it fails the litmus test of fighting arts.


If there's no basis why is it still taught and why are millions of people still doing it. again this is your personal opinion and why are you still training in a style that you say hasd no basis?
There was a basis way back when there was a fire under the collective backside of TCMAers. Back when they trained to win and constantly tested themselves against the best competitors they could find in order to be the best instead of sitting on their collective backsides. I said Joel was a crap fighter who lost to nobodies from a time when the talent pool wasn't exactly stellar and that's the truth. But the one thing I give him credit for, even with him being a comparatively crap fighter, is that he tried. That's more than 99% of the TCMA community and THAT is the saddest part.

I train it because there are a few techniques and principles that can be useful but they have to be trained with a different methodology than TCMA uses currently.


again personal POV, this measn nothing to others......also effective for what? you said you dont compete so why do you care if it works or doesnt work for other people
Effective for full contact fighting. I do compete but not as regularly as I'd like to. And it's about improvement. It's about what works best. It's about that strive toward perfection in martial arts not just for me but for everyone and having people dogmatically clinging to training methods, techniques, and principles which don't work hinders that goal.


theres watering down in all arts bacon stop trashing 1 out of hundreds.
If they were the subject of this discussion I would be criticizing the exactly the same.


name calling and belittling joel is not called for, I beleive david was speaking of this. unless you fight him and beat him I would consider him much tougher and better than you. so lets just drop the derogatory remarks against someone whom you dont know, thats vary immature
It's not derrogatory to say that he didn't compete against anyone of worth and that he was beaten by fighters who weren't even good for their day. THAT is the shining star of your style, THAT is the best example you've had of a TCMAer in full contact fighting and none of that has any relevance to whether I can beat him or he can be me or if I know him.



I cant say this again ...your basing off your opinion no NO evidence ever. everything you have said is about how you feel. nothing to back it up, no evidence. and yes I am a very stand up nice person, but you gotta present different opinions not just say mines better than yours. otherwise we would all think the same and that would be boring.

Okay then let's break it down to the facts:
Number of TCMAers who've won a full contact world title....ZERO
Number of examples of TCMAers in full contact competitons where the talent pool included very skilled competitors...ONE
Did he beat any of those competitors...NO
Did he face any of those competitors...NO
Number of TCMAers who've beat any full contact fighter or repute...ZERO

Now ask the same questions of wrestling, kickboxing, bjj, muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, even judo or karateka and you'll get far better numbers and more positive answer.

It's not that my opinion is better than yours. It's that mine is valid as shown by evidence.

[Bacon]

Detractors of TCMA take heed:

What is your suggestion then?
No suggestion. The law of selective fitness takes care of it and what has been happening is the result of TCMA's inadequate methods and complacency. You improve or die.


Does the existence of TCMA actually make you angry? Do you want it all destroyed or something?
Nope but it would be nice if TCMAers would stop making ridiculous and fallacious claims such as "TCMA is just as good/better than kickboxing, wrestling, muay Thai, bjj, etc etc.


You are basing the utility of Martial Arts on a very specific situation:

2 people who both WANT to fight
Against a single opponent in a controlled environment
Without FEAR of death/prosecution/friends or family in danger or any consequences
Who's goal/need is the winning of the fight and Vanity and Reward
Who can only WIN by destroying the opponent
Who are both subject to the SAME rules, which they KNOW beforehand.

When none of these conditions are in place do you really think exactly the same methods apply? This should question whether the techniques and tactics you use are always going to be better than TCMA. Don't just skim the above conditions, think about their implications, especially on the mental state of the fighter.

The same methods of physical fitness, the same techniques, slightly different tactics depending on the situation. Those claiming "yeah but full contact fight are in a ring with a referee and rules and stuff" are the same folks who would lose to a well conditioned, full contact fighter who fights in the ring. The ring is a test of skills and attributes which are also needed for self defence. Also many here have the idea that eye gouging and the like will save them when such techniques are ineffective against a superior grappler/striker and will likely get you thrown in jail for excessive force. TCMA is not the best at teaching the aspects of self defence required beyond simply fighting techniques. There are specialized schools which do that better than TCMA as well.



Secondly Martial Arts is not brawling. The perfect Martial Art is one which can defeat its opponent without harming him. I realise this is possible with submission, and Jiujitsu is a great traditional art for this. Does this principle apply to your view of Martial Arts?
Martial arts is combative combative. Depending on the social, legal, and evironmental circumstances you may need to restrain, KO, etc a hostile individual. The ability to do this in a full contact situation means you have the skills necessary to do this against a well trained, resistant opponent. Transfer those over to a non sport environment and those individuals will still have the advantage 9.9/10


Thirdly, Not all people are aggressive or have the ability to commit violence, but they can still use Martial Arts to defend themselves. Some people will find an opening but will pull their punch short before hitting its target because of the psychological difficulty in hitting another person. Do you think MMA is a good art for them? Do you realise they might even be in the majority of people?
Martial arts is violence. It is codified and systemized but it is violence. If they don't like hitting people they can train jujitsu and wrestling. If they can't bring themselves to hit someone though chances are they're not going to succeed whether it's grappling or striking.



Fourthly, The utility of an art is entirely in your mind. You can apply it however your mind is capable of abstracting. Many people will go through their lives without actually fighting. Their time spent MA needs to be applied to their life in many other ways. Is Mediation useless? TCMA are Martial Arts but many of them are used as a launching pad for deeper philosophies and for many this is a major part of their art. What is the goal of your training? Should it make you less inclined or more inclined towards violent behaviour?
Cut the philosophy garbage. We're talking about combative proficiency here.

[RenDaHai]

No suggestion. The law of selective fitness takes care of it and what has been happening is the result of TCMA's inadequate methods and complacency. You improve or die.

No suggestion? Then leave people to their hobby.



Nope but it would be nice if TCMAers would stop making ridiculous and fallacious claims such as "TCMA is just as good/better than kickboxing, wrestling, muay Thai, bjj, etc etc.


I don't think people are saying that. Their saying it is different and covers different situations.



Those claiming "yeah but full contact fight are in a ring with a referee and rules and stuff" are the same folks who would lose to a well conditioned, full contact fighter who fights in the ring.


Well, yeah, probably. But its not about that is it? He doesn't have to beat him, he has to survive the encounter or avoid the situation. If you always have the confrontational mindset it will bring you far more trouble. The consequences of such an encounter are just as important as the encounter itself. Some people don't want to be well conditioned fighters who fight in the ring. Don't they still have the right to train a Martial Art? Don't you think it should be tailored to them more specifically? What is good for someone who likes to fight a lot won't work for someone who doesn't.

This is the point you don't get. We don't all want to be fighters. For a non fighter mind set a lot of techniques are less than useless and vice versa.

Predatory and territorial violence.




Martial arts is violence. It is codified and systemized but it is violence. If they don't like hitting people they can train jujitsu and wrestling. If they can't bring themselves to hit someone though chances are they're not going to succeed whether it's grappling or striking.

No. Martial arts are the ability to deal with violence and confront it and discipline it. You think the people who can't hit others wo't succeed and the people who can will? Check out the kind of people who go to prison and the kind who live happy lives...



Cut the philosophy garbage. We're talking about combative proficiency here.

Er....NO. Its a huge gigantic element of it from first principles and it also enters combat proficiency. Lets say I am in line in Wallmart buying a kitchen knife and some guy kicks off and pushes me. My most proficient move is to stab him in the bladder with the knife. But thats not what I'm going to do. The philosophy is every bit as part of the violence as the techniques. This is an extreme example but applies accross all decisions.

[Kellen Bassette]

One. Show me one TCMAer in the past 20 years who uses TCMA for striking and grappling, without cross training, who has beaten a high level competor.



Show me one Muay Thai or BJJ fighter in the UFC that doesn't cross train.

For the record, I think Joe Rogan is an idiot. :rolleyes:

[Robinhood]

I would like to comment on the phrase high level !

I think this thread is more along the lines of high level of physical conditioning, not high level of skill, they are not the same, most competitions rely on high level of physical conditioning to win, not high level of skill to win, some skill, but it is not the main factor at all compared to importance of conditioning in sport competitions .

If someone has a high level of skill they do not need a high level of physical conditions to be effective, but most competitions rules will not allow efficient effective application because it wouldn't be as entertaining and would also cause many serious injuries . If you don't know how to or can't do any effective moves that only require normal physical
health , then you are more along the lines of low level skill practitioner who needs supplement conditioning for skill.

Competitions are more amount conditioning and endurance , than being an effective martial art. IMO

[Kellen Bassette]

Evolution trends toward the most efficient use of energy output vs gain. Dogmatically clinging to the energetically inefficient (low probability) techniques for the simple sake of tradition, does not produce positive fitness. Even if by some chance, some exceptional few, can make them work...that's still simply an example of specialization. Want to know what happens in nature to specialists? They get out competed by the generalists that can occupy any niche. Well not any, but you get the idea.



I agree with you. I also think TCMA has a lot of great fighting techs and we should focus more on the high probability moves and higher efficiency exercises. I don't think this requires throwing out the traditional elements, just focusing much more on the better material and much less on less effective material.

There should be adaptation to fight modern fighters. TCMA has always done that, up until recently. (Although there are those that do it; and I think Sanda is the natural adaptation of traditional Chinese techs in a modern context.)

[Bacon]

Show me one Muay Thai or BJJ fighter in the UFC that doesn't cross train.

For the record, I think Joe Rogan is an idiot. :rolleyes:

I didn't say they don't cross train but if you say a TCMA guy is winning in high level competition and they train kickboxing and bjj then you can't really say they're winning with TCMA. If they're only training TCMA and winning then saying they're winning with TCMA is a valid assessment.
A better comparison would be someone like Anderson silva who does muay thai and BJJ.

[Bacon]

I agree with you. I also think TCMA has a lot of great fighting techs and we should focus more on the high probability moves and higher efficiency exercises. I don't think this requires throwing out the traditional elements, just focusing much more on the better material and much less on less effective material.

There should be adaptation to fight modern fighters. TCMA has always done that, up until recently. (Although there are those that do it; and I think Sanda is the natural adaptation of traditional Chinese techs in a modern context.)

And oddly enough it looks a lot lick what kickboxing and Muay Thai have been doing for quite a while. And as you just pointed out Sanda is a step forward and a non-TCMA.

[Kellen Bassette]

If someone has a high level of skill they do not need a high level of physical conditions to be effective,

They do if they are fighting another skilled fighter. This is the internal vs external philosophy. IMO what stands out about Shaolin, compared with other KF is the conditioning. It's an integral part of the system.

People avoid conditioning because it's hard. KF should be hard.

[Kellen Bassette]

I didn't say they don't cross train but if you say a TCMA guy is winning in high level competition and they train kickboxing and bjj then you can't really say they're winning with TCMA. If they're only training TCMA and winning then saying they're winning with TCMA is a valid assessment.
A better comparison would be someone like Anderson silva who does muay thai and BJJ.

I totally get your point, but it's a useless question because everyone who trains in mma crosstrains. You know that.

[Kellen Bassette]

And oddly enough it looks a lot lick what kickboxing and Muay Thai have been doing for quite a while. And as you just pointed out Sanda is a step forward and a non-TCMA.

Or you could see it as the current evolution of TCMA, does it make a difference?

[Bacon]

I totally get your point, but it's a useless question because everyone who trains in mma crosstrains. You know that.

Yeah but we're not arguining the pros and cons of cross training. We're arguining TCMA's lack of combative proficiency compared to the arts which have shown themselves successful in full contact fighting.

If the mythical successful TCMAer were kickboxing and doing mantis then it would be too easy to dismiss it and say they won because of the kickboxing. If they were only training arts that were TCMA (which is cross training) And they were winning in full contact fighting against high level competitors, then you could say it was solely because of the TCMA.



Or you could see it as the current evolution of TCMA, does it make a difference?

Yes. Other arts were doing it first and TCMA has been pretty ineffective against and compared to those other arts. Then sanda comes along and lo and behold it looks more like those other successful arts than its supposed predecessors in TCMA.

[PalmStriker]

Detractors of TCMA take heed:

What is your suggestion then?

Does the existence of TCMA actually make you angry? Do you want it all destroyed or something?

You are basing the utility of Martial Arts on a very specific situation:

2 people who both WANT to fight
Against a single opponent in a controlled environment
Without FEAR of death/prosecution/friends or family in danger or any consequences
Who's goal/need is the winning of the fight and Vanity and Reward
Who can only WIN by destroying the opponent
Who are both subject to the SAME rules, which they KNOW beforehand.

When none of these conditions are in place do you really think exactly the same methods apply? This should question whether the techniques and tactics you use are always going to be better than TCMA. Don't just skim the above conditions, think about their implications, especially on the mental state of the fighter.



Secondly Martial Arts is not brawling. The perfect Martial Art is one which can defeat its opponent without harming him. I realise this is possible with submission, and Jiujitsu is a great traditional art for this. Does this principle apply to your view of Martial Arts?


Thirdly, Not all people are aggressive or have the ability to commit violence, but they can still use Martial Arts to defend themselves. Some people will find an opening but will pull their punch short before hitting its target because of the psychological difficulty in hitting another person. Do you think MMA is a good art for them? Do you realise they might even be in the majority of people?


Fourthly, The utility of an art is entirely in your mind. You can apply it however your mind is capable of abstracting. Many people will go through their lives without actually fighting. Their time spent MA needs to be applied to their life in many other ways. Is Mediation useless? TCMA are Martial Arts but many of them are used as a launching pad for deeper philosophies and for many this is a major part of their art. What is the goal of your training? Should it make you less inclined or more inclined towards violent behaviour? Well spoken composition on the present status of TCMA and the everlasting benefit of the arts. :)

[PalmStriker]

TCMA soulFOOD: Some people like to cook. Most like to eat. Some even like to fight. :D https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+chinese+food,+special+dishes&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=D4Y&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=0XwFUdm3C_Ky0AH5wIA4&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807

[wenshu]

Evolution trends toward the most efficient use of energy output vs gain. Dogmatically clinging to the energetically inefficient (low probability) techniques for the simple sake of tradition, does not produce positive fitness. Even if by some chance, some exceptional few, can make them work...that's still simply an example of specialization. Want to know what happens in nature to specialists? They get out competed by the generalists that can occupy any niche.

Taking this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion; why study pugilism at all?

If effectiveness in natural selection is the measure of all things (and really, isn't that little too bookishly pragmatic? a little boring?) then no one should bother studying martial arts period. Just get a gun. Even so it's not exactly like the majority of people here are living in squalor in West Baltimore where violent natural selection among humans is actually a reality.



Either it works TODAY, demonstrably so, or it dies. End of story. Right now, its dying.

It's already dead, it's been dead for over a century. Learning kung fu is like learning Latin, or Ancient Greek. A dead language is arguably the least effective way to communicate (efficiency as measured by commonality to be precise). Maybe someone thinks its cool or wants to help perserve it out of a solemn desire to connect with their roots. A few people might make it work, but if all you want to do is have a conversation, go learn what everyone else is learning.

In evolutionary development terms, humans are so apex that at this point our prey includes the planet itself. This has afforded us the luxury of not having to worry about specialization and efficiency so we can study silly things like dead languages.

And really isn't that which is most common actually the least valuable?

[wenshu]

Don't have to, it would be front page news in any full contact fight org if a TCMA guy was suddenly tearing through opponents. And the burden of proof is on you to prove that they exist, not me to prove that they don't.

What a ****ing retarded proposition.

What's with this ridiculous standard that in order to prove even one iota of effectiveness it has to completely dominate everything everywhere all the time?

Why does a gong fu practitioner need to go 'tearing through' anything? Cause you say so?

I'll humor you;

Gong fu sucks, can't fight, won't ever be able to compete with MMA. Ok?




















Oh. . .

you're still here

[PalmStriker]

Quote: PS iif you train TCMA and it doest work as you say why are you still training it? :) If you try a fish dish you are not accustomed to, and don't care for it, will you have a bone to pick and say the egg rolls also sucked? https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+chinese+food,+fish+dishes&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=XpE&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=RIMFUaPsK4HP0wGcsYDoCw&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807

[PalmStriker]

Whoah! Nice Rack! :D I mean, Wok!

[PalmStriker]

Quote" There was a basis way back when there was a fire under the collective backside of TCMAers. Back when they trained to win and constantly tested themselves against the best competitors they could find in order to be the best instead of sitting on their collective backsides. I said Joel was a crap fighter who lost to nobodies from a time when the talent pool wasn't exactly stellar and that's the truth. But the one thing I give him credit for, even with him being a comparatively crap fighter, is that he tried. That's more than 99% of the TCMA community and THAT is the saddest part." Baconator
Hopefully all you MMA guys won't band together to attack and burn down the Shaolin Temples. :D http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=157

[Syn7]

The problem is that when your whole identity is tied into your MA style, you are less likely to address any shortcomings that may come to light later on. People learn a style that they are told is "complete" then when somebody finds a hole, they hit denial mode. The people who carry these styles forward effectively are people who do more than just MA's, people who are not defined by their style. People who have diverse and interesting lives outside of MA's. Yall know what I mean?

[Kellen Bassette]

Yes. Other arts were doing it first and TCMA has been pretty ineffective against and compared to those other arts. Then sanda comes along and lo and behold it looks more like those other successful arts than its supposed predecessors in TCMA.

I don't buy into the Sanda conspiracy theories some of the MT guys throw around. They are different. Yes they have similarities, but all striking does. MT definitely has a different flavor then Sanda, techs are a bit different as well. Don't forget the Chinese Military was teaching their version of Sanda in 1924.

But anyways...your always saying TCMA needs to adapt and evolve to survive. I think if it wants to be relevant as an effective fighting method, then yes, your right.

Here's my problem with your statement: Say I study TCMA, (which I do,) say I'm into combat, (which I am,) but what if I'm also progressive and adaptable with my art? You'll say I'm not doing TCMA. You say TCMA needs to evolve, but when you see TCMA guys adopt modern training methods to use their techs in the ring, or you see them fight sanda..you just say that's not TCMA.

So you say TCMA has to evolve, but as soon as their is any evidence of modernization or progressiveness, you claim it's not TCMA. Don't you see it's impossible to adapt and also be the exact same as 500 years ago?

So what is it you want? You want TCMA to modernize, but then you yell, "that's not TCMA!" I don't get that.

[Kellen Bassette]

Good post Syn.

[Bacon]

I don't buy into the Sanda conspiracy theories some of the MT guys throw around. They are different. Yes they have similarities, but all striking does. MT definitely has a different flavor then Sanda, techs are a bit different as well. Don't forget the Chinese Military was teaching their version of Sanda in 1924.

But anyways...your always saying TCMA needs to adapt and evolve to survive. I think if it wants to be relevant as an effective fighting method, then yes, your right.

Here's my problem with your statement: Say I study TCMA, (which I do,) say I'm into combat, (which I am,) but what if I'm also progressive and adaptable with my art? You'll say I'm not doing TCMA. You say TCMA needs to evolve, but when you see TCMA guys adopt modern training methods to use their techs in the ring, or you see them fight sanda..you just say that's not TCMA.

So you say TCMA has to evolve, but as soon as their is any evidence of modernization or progressiveness, you claim it's not TCMA. Don't you see it's impossible to adapt and also be the exact same as 500 years ago?

So what is it you want? You want TCMA to modernize, but then you yell, "that's not TCMA!" I don't get that.

The problem is this in a nut shell:
Sanda is progressive martial art. It's been adapting and changing. It works well in the ring. Whether it is a copy of muay Thai I would certainly never label it as traditional. It's CMA but not TCMA.

The TCMA guys can't effectively fight the way they train. Either they fight like the modern martial arts or they lose and they certainly fight like modern martial artists better when they train like modern martial artists.

The point is that in order to modernize TCMA would have to ditch a lot of its traditions in which case it just becomes CMA. And since there are already guys fighting in a modern way who are more effective that the TCMAers unless you can bring something both unique and beneficial which is clearly not kickboxing, judo, bjj, wrestling, muay Thai, boxing, etc. folks are going to say you're essentially copying and doing one of those arts.

[Kellen Bassette]

The point is that in order to modernize TCMA would have to ditch a lot of its traditions in which case it just becomes CMA. And since there are already guys fighting in a modern way who are more effective that the TCMAers unless you can bring something both unique and beneficial which is clearly not kickboxing, judo, bjj, wrestling, muay Thai, boxing, etc. folks are going to say you're essentially copying and doing one of those arts.

Well we know you'll say that...:rolleyes:

I don't think you need to ditch the traditions. They have value, anytime your exercising and breaking a sweat it's certainly not worthless. You just have to spend more time on things that are more directly applicable to combat.

I always think I bring TCMA into sparring when I use certain techs that are commonly associated with it. You will be able to find these in other TMA, but they certainly don't belong to MMA, at least not yet.

Some examples where I feel I'm applying TCMA:

Open hands deflecting/parrying punches...(sort of like Cung does, effective and very Chinese), side thrust kick, lead hook kick, spinning hook kick, cross kick, back fist, crescent kicks, low side kick, spinning back kick, front snap kick...

You will occasionally see these techs in MMA, but none of them have been adopted in an across the board fashion, (as of yet.)

All of these techs are associated with TMA and are quite useful if skillfully applied.

[YouKnowWho]

modernize TCMA ...
Modernize is 2 ways street. When a wrestler wants to train Chinese wrestling, it indicates that there are something in TCMA (Chinese wrestling is part of the TCMA) that a wrestler believes can help him to bring his skill into the next level.

All MA systems have holes in it. One of my guys told me that the MMA gym that he went to (there are two UFC fighters there), they all liked to use MT clinch on him. After he got his opponent into a head lock that not only lock his opponent's head but also lock both of his opponent's arms, his opponent stopped using MT clinch on him.

I only believe in "principle" and I don't believe in style. Principle such as "If your opponent wants to

- bend his arms, you help him to bend more than he wants.
- straight his arms, you help him to straight more than he wants".

will always work no matter what style that you may train.

MMA and TCMA will be integrated together soon or later. It may not happen in my generation. It will definitely happen in the next generation. When someone asked, "Is there anything that can help me to train my single leg or double legs at home when I don't have training partner available?" I can already see that MMA guys start to have concern about how to:

- "enhance" and
- "polish" certain skill

when training partners are not available. Equipment training and solo drills will soon be introduced into the MMA training. The difference betweem TCMA and MMA will be less and less after that.

[Syn7]

Good post Syn.

I think it's a really important aspect that is not talked about very often. Like if you immerse yourself in a style all day every day you will get good at what you are doing for sure. But you also create a bubble. Sometimes differing perspectives is exactly what a style needs to move forward. Not different martial perspectives, but diff perspectives in general.

How many people here can relate to this: You train something hard and just can't get it. You back off a bit and do other stuff. A week later you try it again and oh wow, look, you can do it. So not training actually helped, yes? Or did you actually never stop training and just didn't realize that backing off was also a part of this learning process?

IMO diversification improves the learning process to a certain extent.

[Syn7]

Modernize is 2 ways street. When a wrestler wants to train Chinese wrestling, it indicates that there are something in TCMA (Chinese wrestling is part of the TCMA) that a wrestler believes can help him to bring his skill into the next level.

All MA systems have holes in it. One of my guys told me that the MMA gym that he went to (there are two UFC fighters there), they all liked to use MT clinch on him. After he got his opponent into a head lock that not only lock his opponent's head but also lock both of his opponent's arms, his opponent stopped using MT clinch on him.

I only believe in "principle" and I don't believe in style. Principle such as "If your opponent wants to

- bend his arms, you help him to bend more than he wants.
- straight his arms, you help him to straight more than he wants".

will always work no matter what style that you may train.

MMA and TCMA will be integrated together soon or later. It may not happen in my generation. It will definitely happen in the next generation. When someone asked, "Is there anything that can help me to train my single leg or double legs at home when I don't have training partner available?" I can already see that MMA guys start to have concern about how to:

- "enhance" and
- "polish" certain skill

when training partners are not available. Equipment training and solo drills will soon be introduced into the MMA training. The difference betweem TCMA and MMA will be less and less after that.


As a wrestler in high school we had TONS of solo drills. They weren't forms, but it was mos def a kind of shadow boxing. Some things you can practice alone, some things you can't. Some things you can practice alone or with others. That's just how it is.

For example, a heavy bag is a great tool, but it will only get you so far. And vice versa. Sparring is great, but it will only get you so far. You wanna hard punch and have the ability to connect, hit a bag AND spar.

[PalmStriker]

Quote: The TCMA guys can't effectively fight the way they train. Either they fight like the modern martial arts or they lose and they certainly fight like modern martial artists better when they train like modern martial artists. :confused: If under attack I can't imagine responding in a non-TCMA mode of reactionary/muscle-memory training. Go do some more what-ever-it-is-you-do.

[Syn7]

I guess that depends on your opponent. If they wanna dance with you and use WC then I suppose you can too. If they shoot in while you are thinking sticky hands, you will most likely end up on ur back.

[Kellen Bassette]

How many people here can relate to this: You train something hard and just can't get it. You back off a bit and do other stuff. A week later you try it again and oh wow, look, you can do it. So not training actually helped, yes? Or did you actually never stop training and just didn't realize that backing off was also a part of this learning process?


I have no idea why this is true, but it is. In a great many different things...yesterday my Dad was actually talking about this phenomenon occurring in his projects.

[RenDaHai]

For example, a heavy bag is a great tool, but it will only get you so far. And vice versa. Sparring is great, but it will only get you so far. You wanna hard punch and have the ability to connect, hit a bag AND spar.

Exactly. But also the best way to condition for a technique is not always the exact technique. Sometimes you want to enhance it with weights. Sometimes you want to enhance footwork with a skipping rope. Sometimes you want to enhance your waist strength by bending over backwards and touching the floor and standing up again. Doesn't look practical but when you need that flexibility you will notice it.

I don't think you should always train the way you use. I think sometimes we want to isolate things and take them to their extremes.

The important thing is we don't lose sight of our goals. IF your goal is fighting in a ring then you have to adapt your training for that goal. If your goal is transcendence then you adapt your training in a different way. Violence prevention? A different way again.

Whichever goal you have, the principles will stay the same. Be it when making a wise choice or in the split second of a technique.



Also we shouldn't be so eager to classify all things together under a simple label like 'Martial Art'. Kung Fu is its own thing. It doesn't need to change so that it can fit in nicely with the rest of the individuals limited knowledge.

[jdhowland]

Exactly. But also the best way to condition for a technique is not always the exact technique. Sometimes you want to enhance it with weights. Sometimes you want to enhance footwork with a skipping rope. Sometimes you want to enhance your waist strength by bending over backwards and touching the floor and standing up again. Doesn't look practical but when you need that flexibility you will notice it.

I don't think you should always train the way you use. I think sometimes we want to isolate things and take them to their extremes.

The important thing is we don't lose sight of our goals. IF your goal is fighting in a ring then you have to adapt your training for that goal. If your goal is transcendence then you adapt your training in a different way. Violence prevention? A different way again.

Whichever goal you have, the principles will stay the same. Be it when making a wise choice or in the split second of a technique.



Also we shouldn't be so eager to classify all things together under a simple label like 'Martial Art'. Kung Fu is its own thing. It doesn't need to change so that it can fit in nicely with the rest of the individuals limited knowledge.

I second all of this.

[LaRoux]

I would like to comment on the phrase high level !

I think this thread is more along the lines of high level of physical conditioning, not high level of skill, they are not the same, most competitions rely on high level of physical conditioning to win, not high level of skill to win, some skill, but it is not the main factor at all compared to importance of conditioning in sport competitions .

If someone has a high level of skill they do not need a high level of physical conditions to be effective, but most competitions rules will not allow efficient effective application because it wouldn't be as entertaining and would also cause many serious injuries . If you don't know how to or can't do any effective moves that only require normal physical
health , then you are more along the lines of low level skill practitioner who needs supplement conditioning for skill.

Competitions are more amount conditioning and endurance , than being an effective martial art. IMO

Nothing could be further than the truth than the above post.

[LaRoux]

Taking this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion; why study pugilism at all?

If effectiveness in natural selection is the measure of all things (and really, isn't that little too bookishly pragmatic? a little boring?) then no one should bother studying martial arts period. Just get a gun.

You train for when you don't have your weapon with you or it jams or you are out of ammo.

[LaRoux]

All MA systems have holes in it. One of my guys told me that the MMA gym that he went to (there are two UFC fighters there), they all liked to use MT clinch on him. After he got his opponent into a head lock that not only lock his opponent's head but also lock both of his opponent's arms, his opponent stopped using MT clinch on him.

As long as you have statements such as this coming from supposed high-level CMA guys, you will have most of the combatives community deriding CMA.

[LaRoux]

when training partners are not available. Equipment training and solo drills will soon be introduced into the MMA training. The difference betweem TCMA and MMA will be less and less after that.

Considering the fact that having live training partners is one of the basic underlying principles of MMA (and one of the things that makes is successful), I doubt this is going to happen.

As far as why TCMA might be "inferior" to modern training methods, thinking that equipment training and solo drills can take the place of live, resisting partners might be part of the reason.

[Kellen Bassette]

As long as you have statements such as this coming from supposed high-level CMA guys, you will have most of the combatives community deriding CMA.

What was wrong with what YKW said? I like to use the MT clinch, but if my partner is dominating me in the clinch, I stop using it.

[MightyB]

Okay then let's break it down to the facts:
Number of TCMAers who've won a full contact world title: 2 that I know of
Number of examples of TCMAers in full contact competitons where the talent pool included very skilled competitors: 2 that I know of
Number of TCMAers who've beat any full contact fighter or repute: 2 that I know of


Kathy Long (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Long)
Don "the Dragon" Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_%22The_Dragon%22_Wilson)

You could also ad Jason Yee to the above.

[wenshu]

You train for when you don't have your weapon with you or it jams or you are out of ammo.

You live in the suburbs.

[Jimbo]

How many Krav Maga guys are also top MMA fighters? Yet I doubt anyone in their right mind would call it unproven, impractical or 'dying'.

[LaRoux]

What was wrong with what YKW said? I like to use the MT clinch, but if my partner is dominating me in the clinch, I stop using it.

Supposedly, there is this CMA "headlock" technique that this guy used to completely dominate the MT clinch and control the opponent to the extent that both his arms completely tied up and essentially useless. This technique was supposedly so successful that the opponent quit using the clinch.

The way youknowwho worded his post, he made it sound as if this happened against one of the UFC fighters there.

Now maybe I'm just way smarter than the average UFC fighter, but if that was me, I would be taking that technique directly into my fights in the UFC to shut down the MT clinch. My manager would be promoting that and trying to set up fights with guys who used the clinch so I could showcase my new found skill and move up the UFC ladder.

It wouldn't be long before this "double arm immobilizing head-lock technique" was standard fare in the UFC and all other MMA venues. Of course, we can pretty much see this never happened.

Of course, like I said, maybe I'm just way smarter than all the other guys who train at that UFC gym (as well as the coaches and owners of that MMA gym) and they haven't figured out the impact introducing something like this could have on their careers.


As long as CMA practitioners don't see the problems with these kinds of statements and simply take them at face value, they will be continued to be looked down upon by other practitioners.

Put your thinking caps of for a few seconds when you read posts like that and you will see how nonsensical they are.

[Bacon]

Kathy Long (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Long)
Don "the Dragon" Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_%22The_Dragon%22_Wilson)

You could also ad Jason Yee to the above.

Kathy Long won in kickboxing but it's still a step in the right direction. I would say it's acceptable only because it would be impossible to showcase a lot of Kung fu techniques with boxing gloves on. So it's not the best example but I give a little leeway here. Still I'd be more than willing to bet she was training as a kickboxers even though her training is listed as San Soo and Aikido.

Don Wilson trained in Goju-ryu and kickboxing so that's not viable as an example.

There's not enough information on Jason Yee's training background for a determination.

[Bacon]

How many Krav Maga guys are also top MMA fighters? Yet I doubt anyone in their right mind would call it unproven, impractical or 'dying'.

Krav actually takes a lot of what is effective in nhb and mma and makes use of it. And the military version has seen effective use but in comparatively few instances. The civilian version is almost always hardcore Tae Bo for soccer moms and folks who want to seem hardcore by doing an art associated with the IDF.

There are very valid systems which teach self defence well, and you'd be right in claiming none of those system's proponents are top full contact fighters but they do have methods for training self defense which far outmatch TCMA's in situational, legal, and often technique.

So as far as king outside the ring TCMA fails there too.

[LaRoux]

Kathy Long won in kickboxing but it's still a step in the right direction. I would say it's acceptable only because it would be impossible to showcase a lot of Kung fu techniques with boxing gloves on. So it's not the best example but I give a little leeway here. Still I'd be more than willing to bet she was training as a kickboxers even though her training is listed as San Soo and Aikido.

Don Wilson trained in Goju-ryu and kickboxing so that's not viable as an example.

There's not enough information on Jason Yee's training background for a determination.

You can't win in kickboxing without training in kickboxing. .

[RenDaHai]

Adaptability.

Thats the important thing.

If you train only the application of the sword your screwed when guns come along.

But sword or gun, drone or nuke the timeless principles of the art of war are still the same.


MMA, this is one manifestation. We can adapt Kung Fu to MMA and it will look just like it. But we shouldn't destroy it in the process, because one day you will want to apply kung fu to something else. And it has as many applications as you have the ability to imagine.

To think that all violent encounters can be summed up by 1 situation is foolish.

Let your body absorb the theories of Kung Fu and you will never find it a hinderance.

Above all enjoy it, as thousands have done for millennia.

[Kellen Bassette]

As long as CMA practitioners don't see the problems with these kinds of statements and simply take them at face value, they will be continued to be looked down upon by other practitioners.

Put your thinking caps of for a few seconds when you read posts like that and you will see how nonsensical they are.

I'd have to see it done, how he would lock both arms, but getting a headlock from clinch isn't difficult, I've done it on many occasions. Also real simple to lock one arm with an overhook from the clinch.

[LaRoux]

I'd have to see it done, how he would lock both arms, but getting a headlock from clinch isn't difficult, I've done it on many occasions. Also real simple to lock one arm with an overhook from the clinch.

We are talking about the MT plum position. First of all, getting an overhook from there is not a simple proposition. If it was, the MT plum would not be the effective technique it is. It could easily be countered with a simple overhook.

As far as a headlock goes, sure it's easy, but no one would do it because it's such a bad idea. Again, put your thinking cap on here for a second. What happens when you put a heallock on someone in MMA?

Supposedly, this is some kind of new thing that the MMA community has never seen, other than in this one MMA gym. Do you really think that if this was real, it would never have leaked out of that gym?

[Bacon]

You can't win in kickboxing without training in kickboxing. .

Kinda one of the points I was making with regard to sanda.

[LaRoux]

Kinda one of the points I was making with regard to sanda.

Of course, you probably wouldn't do so well in Sanda without training some Sanda.

[Kellen Bassette]

You can't win in kickboxing without training in kickboxing. .

Those were two very good examples. If they teach Kung Fu, I think it's pretty safe to say that's what they consider their base and what they find effective.

[Kellen Bassette]

Don Wilson trained in Goju-ryu and kickboxing so that's not viable as an example.

There's not enough information on Jason Yee's training background for a determination.

If Don Wilson is a Kung Fu teacher, I think that's your answer Bacon. You wouldn't draw any more kick boxing from Go Ju Ryu than you would from Kung Fu.

Jason Yee trained Praying Mantis and Hung Gar. He was also a forms champion.

[Bacon]

Of course, you probably wouldn't do so well in Sanda without training some Sanda.

Actually personally I'm very fond of Sanda's ruleset allowing takedowns. I'd love it if we could have one rule format to encompass sanda, kickboxing, and muay Thai. Essentially have muay Thai rules but allow takedowns.

[Bacon]

If Don Wilson is a Kung Fu teacher, I think that's your answer Bacon. You wouldn't draw any more kick boxing from Go Ju Ryu than you would from Kung Fu.

Jason Yee trained Praying Mantis and Hung Gar. He was also a forms champion.

I'm saying it's a confounding variable as is any kickboxing training. For example Thai pads, focus mitts, boxing gloves, etc haven't exactly used used in TCMA before the last few decades. I wouldn't consider using that equipment and training as a kickboxer traditional CMA training and I'd be willing to bet they all did so.

[Kellen Bassette]

As far as a headlock goes, sure it's easy, but no one would do it because it's such a bad idea. Again, put your thinking cap on here for a second. What happens when you put a heallock on someone in MMA?


I've used headlock from clinch many times, put weight on the neck and undercuts to the ribs.

[Kellen Bassette]

Actually personally I'm very fond of Sanda's ruleset allowing takedowns. I'd love it if we could have one rule format to encompass sanda, kickboxing, and muay Thai. Essentially have muay Thai rules but allow takedowns.

This is done quite often. China and Thailand do several "versus" fights with combined rules. Essentially your allowing elbows into sanda and throws/sweeps into muay thai.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm saying it's a confounding variable as is any kickboxing training. For example Thai pads, focus mitts, boxing gloves, etc haven't exactly used used in TCMA before the last few decades. I wouldn't consider using that equipment and training as a kickboxer traditional CMA training and I'd be willing to bet they all did so.

Well it's modern equipment. I've always used mitts and pads in Karate and Kung Fu. I'm not sure when the modern style mitts and pads came into being, but I got to believe Muay Thai didn't have them, in the same form as today, if you go back to the past.

[LaRoux]

I've used headlock from clinch many times, put weight on the neck and undercuts to the ribs.


Is this what you are describing as a headlock?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1327706460_headlock1.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

Is this what you are describing as a headlock?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1327706460_headlock1.jpg

No...I mean just one arm, not really a true headlock I guess, you get his neck pulled down and lean your chest on his neck/shoulder area, with your other hand free for hooks, undercuts...also a good position to sprawl and bring him down.

[LaRoux]

No...I mean just one arm, not really a true headlock I guess, you get his neck pulled down and lean your chest on his neck/shoulder area, with your other hand free for hooks, undercuts...also a good position to sprawl and bring him down.


So, you are talking a about a wrestling front head lock then, right?

http://www.theguillotine.com/club/02/photos/downing_usgwa_fh.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

So, you are talking a about a wrestling front head lock then, right?

http://www.theguillotine.com/club/02/photos/downing_usgwa_fh.jpg

Yes, it basically looks like that, but it would be just the left arm and you would still be standing...(unless you wanted to sprawl and go to the ground)

[Bacon]

Well it's modern equipment. I've always used mitts and pads in Karate and Kung Fu. I'm not sure when the modern style mitts and pads came into being, but I got to believe Muay Thai didn't have them, in the same form as today, if you go back to the past.

Nope but muay Thai is a relatively recent development compared to its origin in Muay Boran. Muay Boran is traditional and they dont use modn training or equipment while Muay Thai is modern and progressive.

[LaRoux]

Yes, it basically looks like that, but it would be just the left arm and you would still be standing...(unless you wanted to sprawl and go to the ground)

And how would you be getting over the top of the opponent's head from the MT plum position?

http://mmapages.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/mma-training-muay-thai.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

Nope but muay Thai is a relatively recent development compared to its origin in Muay Boran. Muay Boran is traditional and they dont use modn training or equipment while Muay Thai is modern and progressive.

I'm aware, MT adopted western rules in the 1930's. I don't know if there was modern pads/mitts at that time or not. I'm sure there was something similar.

I actually wish MT would use a little more of MTB...I just feel like it would be so much more complete with the sidekick...(of which MTB had a version, plus plenty other nifty things that could be great surprise attacks) it's not like you would have to revive the forms and solo drills, but 2 or 3 extra techs outside the standard basics would be nice in the arsenal...to my way of thinking...

you know...like Saenchai's handstand kicks. :P

[Bacon]

I'm aware, MT adopted western rules in the 1930's. I don't know if there was modern pads/mitts at that time or not. I'm sure there was something similar.

I actually wish MT would use a little more of MTB...I just feel like it would be so much more complete with the sidekick...(of which MTB had a version, plus plenty other nifty things that could be great surprise attacks) it's not like you would have to revive the forms and solo drills, but 2 or 3 extra techs outside the standard basics would be nice in the arsenal...to my way of thinking...

you know...like Saenchai's handstand kicks. :P

Actually in one fight I did see someone use the technique to KO an opponent where you step up on the opponent's thigh and slam an elbow straight down into the top of the head. It's textbook Muay Boran and actually one of the harder techniques to pull off when you're all sweaty.

And it's not the rules. They adopted the equipment and training methods... Well except nutrition. Most of the fighters are too poor to have a decent diet compared to their European or American counterparts in Muay Thai.

[Kellen Bassette]

And how would you be getting over the top of the opponent's head from the MT plum position?

http://mmapages.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/mma-training-muay-thai.jpg

It works well when you pull them down into the knee...if you can pull his head down to about your pec, you just slide forward and let your armpit go over his head and let your left hand drop down and wrap around...then your right is free for a quick 2 or 3 shots to the ribs.

If your both upright jocking for position it won't work well, you need to be in a dominant position.

[Kellen Bassette]

Actually in one fight I did see someone use the technique to KO an opponent where you step up on the opponent's thigh and slam an elbow straight down into the top of the head. It's textbook Muay Boran and actually one of the harder techniques to pull off when you're all sweaty.

And it's not the rules. They adopted the equipment and training methods... Well except nutrition. Most of the fighters are too poor to have a decent diet compared to their European or American counterparts in Muay Thai.

I know, I've always wanted to see that pulled off as well...or when they go off the knee for the downward elbow. :cool:

[LaRoux]

It works well when you pull them down into the knee...if you can pull his head down to about your pec, you just slide forward and let your armpit go over his head and let your left hand drop down and wrap around...then your right is free for a quick 2 or 3 shots to the ribs.

If your both upright jocking for position it won't work well, you need to be in a dominant position.

The plum IS the dominant position. You can't pull the opponent's head down once he has the plum, that's part of the idea of the plum.

[Kellen Bassette]

The plum IS the dominant position. You can't pull the opponent's head down once he has the plum, that's part of the idea of the plum.

Yeah you can't do it if he's got you...

[Kellen Bassette]

We were talking about the opposite guys, I think...I see the confusion now LaRoux...

[Bacon]

We were talking about the opposite guys, I think...I see the confusion now LaRoux...

But that's the point though. YKW was describing it as a counter to the plum such that the Thai boxer stopped using it and even you can see that's ridiculous.

[LaRoux]

We were talking about the opposite guys, I think...I see the confusion now LaRoux...

Yes, exactly.

youknowwho was saying there was some kind of CMA headlock that nullified the plum.

[Kellen Bassette]

But that's the point though. YKW was describing it as a counter to the plum such that the Thai boxer stopped using it and even you can see that's ridiculous.

I just reread that..I see why LaRoux was confused...that's my bad. We were talking about the opposite guys.

[Kellen Bassette]

even you can see that's ridiculous.

"Even you"? What's that supposed to mean? :(

I'll give YKW the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure he'll come to explain what he was talking about.

[LaRoux]

I'll give YKW the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure he'll come to explain what he was talking about.

You mean the way he did the other time by say the original method was not really how he meant it, but is was more of just a set-up and not really the way it would be used?

[Bacon]

"Even you"? What's that supposed to mean? :(

I'll give YKW the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure he'll come to explain what he was talking about.

I meant "even you" as meaning you as opposed to the other participants in the discussion. No insult intended.

[Kellen Bassette]

You mean the way he did the other time by say the original method was not really how he meant it, but is was more of just a set-up and not really the way it would be used?

I avoided that one. Grappling isn't my forte, but I'm learning.

[Kellen Bassette]

I meant "even you" as meaning you as opposed to the other participants in the discussion. No insult intended.

LOL..yeah I was just having fun with it...at the end of the day you can't take a forum too seriously anyway.

[MightyB]

Kathy Long won in kickboxing but it's still a step in the right direction. I would say it's acceptable only because it would be impossible to showcase a lot of Kung fu techniques with boxing gloves on. So it's not the best example but I give a little leeway here. Still I'd be more than willing to bet she was training as a kickboxers even though her training is listed as San Soo and Aikido.

Don Wilson trained in Goju-ryu and kickboxing so that's not viable as an example.

There's not enough information on Jason Yee's training background for a determination.

"Early life
Wilson was born to a American father and Japanese mother in Cocoa Beach, Florida,[3] and grew up on Florida's Space Coast. He had a long and successful career in the ring. He was perhaps the best known and most successful kickboxer of his era.
He is a teacher of Pai Lum Tao Kung fu[4] also known as White Dragon Kung Fu which is how he obtained his nickname."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_%22The_Dragon%22_Wilson

[MightyB]

You can't win in kickboxing without training in kickboxing. .

there's an exception to every extreme.
Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. He's mixed in nothing but traditional arts: : judo, kajukenbo, shotokan, taekwondo, lima lama, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, aikido, and karate and he is the founder of Ukidokan Karate.

[LaRoux]

there's an exception to every extreme.
Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. He's mixed in nothing but traditional arts: : judo, kajukenbo, shotokan, taekwondo, lima lama, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, aikido, and karate and he is the founder of Ukidokan Karate.

You do know that kickboxing basically had its roots in karate, right?

[MightyB]

You do know that kickboxing basically had its roots in karate, right?

Yes, but you tend to describe everything in too much extreme so I'm pointing out that yes there have been some guys who claim nothing but traditional arts that did very well in full contact fighting. And a couple that even credit kung fu as a base.

plus you talk of kickboxing as thai boxing only according to your posts. I could ad Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis to the mix of traditional. There's also Jim Kelly.

[LaRoux]

Yes, but you tend to describe everything in too much extreme so I'm pointing out that yes there have been some guys who claim nothing but traditional arts that did very well in full contact fighting. And a couple that even credit kung fu as a base.

All of them had bases in traditional arts. All of them had to modify those bases, depending on the ruleset that they were fighting in.

Benny had to make significant changes when he started fighting Japanese style kickboxing and Muay Thai.

[MightyB]

All of them had bases in traditional arts. All of them had to modify those bases, depending on the ruleset that they were fighting in.

Benny had to make significant changes when he started fighting Japanese style kickboxing and Muay Thai.

and there isn't anyone on this forum that doesn't do the same if they put out fighters. It's the way it's always been in traditional schools that advocate fighting. To put everyone in a category saying that traditional martial arts are garbage doesn't make sense, at least to those of us who use it as a base and fight.

[LaRoux]

plus you talk of kickboxing as thai boxing only according to your posts.

Kickboxing is kind of confusing, considering the different rulesets that evolved in different countries.

US kickboxing required a certain number of kicks in each round and kicks were only allowed above the waist.

Japanese kickboxing originally was Kyokushin karate, which evolved into Muay Thai rules after the Japanese fought the Thais.

European kickboxing evolved from Japanese/Thai kickboxing.

[MightyB]

Kickboxing is kind of confusing, considering the different rulesets that evolved in different countries.

US kickboxing required a certain number of kicks in each round and kicks were only allowed above the waist.

Japanese kickboxing originally was Kyokushin karate, which evolved into Muay Thai rules after the Japanese fought the Thais.

and I remember when san sou wouldn't allow multiple shots to the head with the hands.

evolution happens because of rules or mores.

[LaRoux]

and there isn't anyone on this forum that doesn't do the same if they put out fighters. It's the way it's always been in traditional schools that advocate fighting. To put everyone in a category saying that traditional martial arts are garbage doesn't make sense, at least to those of us who use it as a base and fight.

I'm not one of those who says traditional martial arts are all garbage.

[MightyB]

thinking of evolution, watch early BJJ tapes and vid and then look at it now. I'm talking as recent as the 80's.

[MightyB]

I'm not one of those who says traditional martial arts are all garbage.

whether you intend to or not, you kind've do.



although a lot of tradition includes garbage. This is my Opinion anyway.

[LaRoux]

whether you intend to or not, you kind've do.

What I do is point out garbage techniques, garbage thinking, and garbage tactics. If those just happen fit the traditional model, that's not my fault.

[MightyB]

What I do is point out garbage techniques, garbage thinking, and garbage tactics. If those just happen fit the traditional model, that's not my fault.

you missed my last edit. I do agree, there's a lot of garbage that's included in traditional. Even Gichin Funakoshi said to be aware of having too many forms, and shotokan has a lot of forms.

[LaRoux]

thinking of evolution, watch early BJJ tapes and vid and then look at it now. I'm talking as recent as the 80's.

Early BJJ tournaments would have most of the auditorium booing if anyone went for a footlock.

Of course one could (and many do) make a valid argument that tournaments were a de-evolution of BJJ.

[SoCo KungFu]

I believe TCMA is still very viable and still loved by many even the non fighters competitors there will always be people whom study the Chinese arts as well as every other art.

Non fighters are hardly keeping the system intact. They're diluting it down and its losing what makes it "martial."



I would not say its a fad either but lets be real MMA is just that MMA mantis has 14 style in it I consider that MMA. mixing styles together is not a recent/modern thing.

Don't care about that. I care about the training. MMA, MT, etc. gyms focus on training to fight. Few TMAers do that. They may think they do, but their methods are not sufficient. They are little better than those not wanting to learn fighting at all. That is the problem.


agreed, however every style has inefficient tech. but any excersize produces positive fitness.

No, absolutely false. When I say fitness, I am referring to the biological term, meaning the measure of an organism's ability to survive and reproduce. Applied to martial arts, TCMA is not surviving well in the public display. It is not showing itself to be on par with more direct training methods like those present in MT, Boxing or MMA gyms. Furthermore, it is becoming more and more difficult to find skilled, qualified instructors that can pass on the martial side of the arts. Meaning it is not reproducing sufficiently. I don't care how good an art is, if it is not reproducing (ie. being carried on in sufficient numbers by qualified and skilled students taking up the banner) then its fitness is 0.


It will never die, it may have changed but ti will not die. Perhaps if there was better teachers not giving aw3ay sashes and wearing silk pj doing forms then it woud be tightened up and higher standards for testing came into place, also accreditation you have a lot of unskilled so called sifu out there teaching with inadequate fighting experience Turing out sub par students. but the same can be said for all arts not just the TMCA

All arts have it. But TMA's have been lacking in means of self correction.

[Raipizo]

what did you start
why did you stay
what part do you like about it
what parts dont you like

Started mcdojo karate for a few months as a young kid 9/10 then stopped going there. Teenage years did another karate place for around 2 to 3 years and again stopped going there, sensei would rarely be there towards the end, put his assistant teachers or the judo teacher in charge so that got old really quick, plus the guy was kinda a d**k
Starting tcma soon northern shaolin, I've had in interest for Kung fu for years and I like it compared to karate more.
In karate I did like the training and techniques we learned. Karate it seemed a lot of respect for rank, it should be respect for all, no matter what rank.

[Syn7]

The plum IS the dominant position. You can't pull the opponent's head down once he has the plum, that's part of the idea of the plum.

You walk in, take atleast one overhook and close the distance. After you gain control with the one overhook, the front headlock is one step away. My preference is to have over under and use under to pull up on the inside and take the headlock. You can lock in a nice arm in guillotine from there too. Arm out with one extra step. It's not really rocket science. That's just one way, just to answer the question that was asked awhile ago.

[Frost]

You walk in, take atleast one overhook and close the distance. After you gain control with the one overhook, the front headlock is one step away. My preference is to have over under and use under to pull up on the inside and take the headlock. You can lock in a nice arm in guillotine from there too. Arm out with one extra step. It's not really rocket science. That's just one way, just to answer the question that was asked awhile ago.

YKW said his student got the headlock when he was being dominated in the plum, you cant walk in and take an overhook when you are getting plumed, you cant headlock and cotrol both arms from their its simply not possible because your head is lower than your opponents and his arms are in a dominate position, what he said makes no sense

[LaRoux]

You walk in, take atleast one overhook and close the distance. After you gain control with the one overhook, the front headlock is one step away. My preference is to have over under and use under to pull up on the inside and take the headlock. You can lock in a nice arm in guillotine from there too. Arm out with one extra step. It's not really rocket science. That's just one way, just to answer the question that was asked awhile ago.

Huh? Overhook from the opponent having the plum? What have you been smoking?

[Syn7]

YKW said his student got the headlock when he was being dominated in the plum, you cant walk in and take an overhook when you are getting plumed, you cant headlock and cotrol both arms from their its simply not possible because your head is lower than your opponents and his arms are in a dominate position, what he said makes no sense

I dunno bout all that. I didn't see his original post. I just saw someone ask how to go from plum defense to front headlock. Personally, I'm more inclined to at least try and regain dominance with my own tie. It's a pretty common spot to be in, there are a handful of good ways out. Ones that I am able to work for me, anyways.

[Frost]

Huh? Overhook from the opponent having the plum? What have you been smoking?

to be fiar YKW simply said the thai clinch he might have meant simply clinch work with strikes rather than just the plum, in which case his answer makes sense, but somehow i doubt he meant this

[Syn7]

Huh? Overhook from the opponent having the plum? What have you been smoking?

What? You dunno how to position yourself into an over under from the plum? Ok.

[LaRoux]

to be fiar YKW simply said the thai clinch he might have meant simply clinch work with strikes rather than just the plum, in which case his answer makes sense, but somehow i doubt he meant this

Not sure how one would get confused about a "MT clinch" vs. a normal clinch.

[LaRoux]

What? You dunno how to position yourself into an over under from the plum? Ok.

OK, please enlighten me on how you are simply going to position yourself into an over-under without getting out of the plum in the first place.

[Frost]

Not sure how one would get confused about a "MT clinch" vs. a normal clinch.

it depends on why you talk to, traditional thai clinch work isnt just the plum, thy use underhooks overhooks ****zers etc just like a normal clinch, western thai mainly uses the plum thats for sure, but its not the only position, im just saying he might have meant this, but im inclined to think he did mean the double neck tie

[LaRoux]

it depends on why you talk to, traditional thai clinch work isnt just the plum, thy use underhooks overhooks ****zers etc just like a normal clinch, western thai mainly uses the plum thats for sure, but its not the only position, im just saying he might have meant this, but im inclined to think he did mean the double neck tie

Maybe, but either way, I don't think any of these clinch variations could be considered to be the techniques of the system that have "holes" in them.

[Frost]

Maybe, but either way, I don't think any of these clinch variations could be considered to be the techniques of the system that have "holes" in them.
true but the headlock makes more sense from 50/50 than the plum so maybe he meant that, still as you say the headlock even from there is a risky move in both MMA and sub grappling

[Syn7]

OK, please enlighten me on how you are simply going to position yourself into an over-under without getting out of the plum in the first place.

Hips in, head up, drop and turn hips, push right hand thru the inside to behind the neck.... I'm sure you can figure out the rest. Like I said, it's not rocket science.

[Syn7]

MT clinch is a misnomer. That's all. Many mean the plum, but really it doesn't mean anything. Thats like saying an MMA clinch. WTF does that mean, right?

Swimming.

[LaRoux]

Hips in, head up, drop and turn hips, push right hand thru the inside to behind the neck.... I'm sure you can figure out the rest. Like I said, it's not rocket science.

Yep, escape the plum.

Of course, it's a lot easier if you duck the shoulder under. Kind of hard to get behind the neck when your shoulder is outside the opponent's elbow.

[Frost]

MT clinch is a misnomer. That's all. Many mean the plum, but really it doesn't mean anything. Thats like saying an MMA clinch. WTF does that mean, right?

Swimming.

the plum actually means to wrestle but most people as you well know when they say the thai plum or thai clinch mean the double neck tie......rightly or wrongly thats what the thai clinch and plum is seen as these days

[Syn7]

Yep, escape the plum.

Of course, it's a lot easier if you duck the shoulder under. Kind of hard to get behind the neck when your shoulder is outside the opponent's elbow.

Yeah, when you drop your level and turn your hips, your shoulder turns in too. You swim in with the lead hand depending on which way you drop. When you come back up you have a whole bunch of choices. Usually I try to take my own double collar tie. But, I mean, it really depends who you're up against. Sometimes all you can do is break out. If you're consistently getting your ass handed to you on the inside, best start dancing.

[Syn7]

the plum actually means to wrestle but most people as you well know when they say the thai plum or thai clinch mean the double neck tie......rightly or wrongly thats what the thai clinch and plum is seen as these days

Yeah I learned the wrestling term first. So its always been a collar tie to me.

Blame it on poorly informed commentators.

[Kellen Bassette]

Kickboxing is kind of confusing, considering the different rulesets that evolved in different countries.

US kickboxing required a certain number of kicks in each round and kicks were only allowed above the waist.

Japanese kickboxing originally was Kyokushin karate, which evolved into Muay Thai rules after the Japanese fought the Thais.

European kickboxing evolved from Japanese/Thai kickboxing.

I'm actually surprised how many people don't know kickboxing was born from Karate.

[Bacon]

there's an exception to every extreme.
Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. He's mixed in nothing but traditional arts: : judo, kajukenbo, shotokan, taekwondo, lima lama, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, aikido, and karate and he is the founder of Ukidokan Karate.

Judo is progressive and so is aikido. They are not considered traditional as they are not koryu.
Kajukenbo is a mix of styles and considered one of the founding influences of MMA.
Shotokan is non-traditional. Karate in general means nothing without knowing which ryu and his own style is certainly non-traditional.
Jujitsu would depend on which ryu and whether it's koryu.
Taekwondo is an evolution of Shotokan and is not traditional.



Yes, but you tend to describe everything in too much extreme so I'm pointing out that yes there have been some guys who claim nothing but traditional arts that did very well in full contact fighting. And a couple that even credit kung fu as a base.

plus you talk of kickboxing as thai boxing only according to your posts. I could ad Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis to the mix of traditional. There's also Jim Kelly.

Now tell me those folks who won in kickboxing did nothing but TCMA training and no modern kickboxing training. Please. I'd love to hear you say it because you'd know it's a lie.

[EarthDragon]

Judo is progressive and so is aikido. They are not considered traditional as they are not koryu.

what nullifies them as traditional? most styles in japan came after the 1800's and they are still considered traditional.


Kajukenbo is a mix of styles and considered one of the founding influences of MMA.
Shotokan is non-traditional. Karate in general means nothing without knowing which ryu and his own style is certainly non-traditional.
Jujitsu would depend on which ryu and whether it's koryu.
Taekwondo is an evolution of Shotokan and is not traditional.

these in today's world are all considered TJMA except obviously TKD

[Kellen Bassette]

Judo is progressive and so is aikido. They are not considered traditional as they are not koryu.
Kajukenbo is a mix of styles and considered one of the founding influences of MMA.
Shotokan is non-traditional. Karate in general means nothing without knowing which ryu and his own style is certainly non-traditional.
Jujitsu would depend on which ryu and whether it's koryu.
Taekwondo is an evolution of Shotokan and is not traditional.



All those arts are considered traditional in the popular sense.

[Bacon]

what nullifies them as traditional? most styles in japan came after the 1800's and they are still considered traditional.
They're gendai budo, not koryu.



these in today's world are all considered TJMA except obviously TKD

Kajukenbo is from Hawaii and is a fairly recent mix of several martial arts. Shotokan is genda budo not koryu. The jujitsu would depend on the ryu as to whether it's koryu or gendai budo and we've already eliminated TKD.

And Kellen popular opinion doesn't mean a thing because the masses are generally uneducated about martial history.

In any case it's a moot point. These are not TCMA so it's not exactly an argument in favour of TCMA.

[Kellen Bassette]

And Kellen popular opinion doesn't mean a thing because the masses are generally uneducated about martial history.



Well, I'd like to agree with you, but it certainly influences how we talk about them. For instance, BJJ began in 1914...it's older than most of our "traditional Karates" at least in name and founding of organizations. But very few consider it traditional.

Shotokan is Japanese, not Okinawan, but it's as old as a lot of the Ryu styles.

Muay Thai may be 500, maybe 2500 years old, depends who you ask...much older than most TOMA and TJMA, but we still consider it modern. Even after adopting western ring and rules, it's still as old as most Karate.

Boxing by all rights should be traditional, it's considerably older than most of the arts you listed. We consider it modern. I think most martial artists when asked would call Shotokan, Judo, Aikido and TKD "traditional".

[MightyB]

Early BJJ tournaments would have most of the auditorium booing if anyone went for a footlock.

Of course one could (and many do) make a valid argument that tournaments were a de-evolution of BJJ.

Actually I believe the exact opposite. I think BJJ is much more dynamic than what I've seen on the early tapes - old vale tudo and Gracie challenge. The older stuff looked just like Judo Newaza, very little to differentiate it from Judo, just the 80/20 rule - where Judo emphasized 80 percent throwing, BJJ emphasized 80 percent Newaza. Now I say BJJ really has come into it's own - which is a good thing in my opinion because the techniques they are developing and the athleticism is pretty cool.

[MightyB]

Judo is progressive and so is aikido. They are not considered traditional as they are not koryu.
Kajukenbo is a mix of styles and considered one of the founding influences of MMA.
Shotokan is non-traditional. Karate in general means nothing without knowing which ryu and his own style is certainly non-traditional.
Jujitsu would depend on which ryu and whether it's koryu.
Taekwondo is an evolution of Shotokan and is not traditional.




Now tell me those folks who won in kickboxing did nothing but TCMA training and no modern kickboxing training. Please. I'd love to hear you say it because you'd know it's a lie.

aren't we full of p*ss and vinegar this morning. :)

All the above were born out of traditional arts and are an example of martial tradition in motion. Where a TCMA school goes wrong or any traditional school for that matter, is when they get stuck in the past with no regards for the present or future. This isn't new. But all of the above are still traditional martial arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any MA with a tradition is correctly a TMA.
The fact is that there is no universal definition of TMA.
If you go by age then there are no MA more traditional than boxing and wrestling.
Koryu are the "old school" bujjtsu arts , typically those before the Meji restoration of the 19th century.
Budo arts ARE still TMA but are not koryu systems.
Judo is a TMA, it is over 100 years old.
Karate proper is very old too, with shotokan ( the oldest "registered" style being founded in the 1930's) but the various styles of "TE" being far older than that.
TKD is from the 50's so it to can be viewed as a tradtional art in the sense that it has a few generations already.
Again, you need to define traditional before you make a comment on whether a system is or isn't.

[Bacon]

Again the argument of whether those we traditional or not is a different subject entirely but how folks are quoting people who trained non-TCMA as somehow a good thing for TCMA is beyond me.

Oh and MightyB Muay Thai is less than a hundred years old. You're thinking of its ancestral style Muay Boran.

And sanjuro if you want to go that way then let's ignore traditional versus non-traditional entirely. In that case the only CMAs which are successful a those making use of modern training methods like sanda.

[Jimbo]

Regarding what is traditional/non-traditional, what is the cutoff date, then? What year separates which art is or isn't traditional? Also, all arts in existence today are a mix of what the developers felt were the best skills from older MAs. And they are all constantly evolving to some degree or other. One clear example is CLF; it is clearly a mixed martial art, but because it's a CMA, for some odd reason some people will say that it isn't.

In CMA, it would be ridiculous to think that what we see today is the same as 500 or even 100 years ago. Nothing can exist in a total vacuum.

I say this as someone who fully supports the concept of MMA because, if it truly means "mixed martial arts", then in order to remain relevant, whether in-ring or not, every art must grow in its own way. Each individual in every art will also be different based on their own past experiences in other arts, if any.

[David Jamieson]

Again the argument of whether those we traditional or not is a different subject entirely but how folks are quoting people who trained non-TCMA as somehow a good thing for TCMA is beyond me.

Oh and MightyB Muay Thai is less than a hundred years old. You're thinking of its ancestral style Muay Boran.

And sanjuro if you want to go that way then let's ignore traditional versus non-traditional entirely. In that case the only CMAs which are successful a those making use of modern training methods like sanda.


You believe that competitive fighting a la mma rules is the pinnacle of martial arts.

That's fine. You are entitled to believe that but quite frankly that is the pinnacle of competitive martial arts as held within that venue.

None of it deals with all the other aspects or different martial arts out there.

BJJ, MT, Judo and Boxing in't the only martial arts going.

You also have a tendency to dismiss outright anything that someone presents to you as valid because it doesn't fall into your artificial construct.

To that end, you are acting like a troll and not really contributing anything here. And yes, the onus is on you when you make demands to have a few placed on you as well.

So far, you have not. Which is pretty much keeping you at the level of troll and you are drudging up the same old same old crap that gets old and tired.

Traditional arts have been around for a long time. they aren't going to go away because of your weird hatred of them and you aren't going to change many minds here as most guys that practice, that actually practice have already adjusted their understanding to that reality.

IE: I can think of a few guys who run TCMA schools that have MMA classes running and that have worked for and earned their bjj belts etc in order to get into that popular sport thing that people are interested in because of tv and usually lose interest in the first time they get cracked in the face on the mat. And yes, that happens too.

I know how hard it is to find a regular sparring partner. It's hard! You make it sound like everyone should just be able to find that easily. Not true.

Even with the rise in white collar boxers, it is hard to find a decent sparring partner. How much of your training cycle is live full contact sparing anyway? If you are on a circuit and getting paid, I would expect that to be in your regimen, but if you are a hobbyist, like 99% of all people studying martial arts, then the varietal garden of martial arts is way more important and ring sparring sessions are actually not that useful to you in your development or interest.

Further to that, even the greatest sport fighter in the world only get's his day for a while. Most of the people who practice mma don't fight pro. Heck, they don't even fight amateur. They just go to walmart and mimic GSP for 30 minutes or something.

I prefer a full well rounded study that includes books, swords, boxing, kickboxing, sharing, exercise, and all that other stuff. Much more rewarding.

This whole sport vs Traditional is a tired old washed up subject. Everything is everything and everything has something of value in it to be learned provided that is what the individual wants.

If a guy wants a Ford, he doesn't care how great you think a Toyota is. That's the bottom line. good old car analogies. :p

[EarthDragon]

Regarding what is traditional/non-traditional, what is the cutoff date, then? What year separates which art is or isn't traditional? Also, all arts in existence today are a mix of what the developers felt were the best skills from older MAs. And they are all constantly evolving to some degree or other. One clear example is CLF; it is clearly a mixed martial art, but because it's a CMA, for some odd reason some people will say that it isn't.

In CMA, it would be ridiculous to think that what we see today is the same as 500 or even 100 years ago. Nothing can exist in a total vacuum.

I say this as someone who fully supports the concept of MMA because, if it truly means "mixed martial arts", then in order to remain relevant, whether in-ring or not, every art must grow in its own way. Each individual in every art will also be different based on their own past experiences in other arts, if any.
Reply With Quote

great post jimbo, that basically clears up Bacon confusion.
also great post David, it is what it is even if you dont know what "IT" is right?

[MightyB]

Again the argument of whether those we traditional or not is a different subject entirely but how folks are quoting people who trained non-TCMA as somehow a good thing for TCMA is beyond me.


Most every person I quoted has a TCMA background. Wilson - Lama Pai, Long - San Soo (which is combat oriented CLF), Urquidez - White Crane. They all found something in TCMA which they enjoy and credit to their success in the ring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

DJ has ***** slapped the correct.

[Bacon]

You believe that competitive fighting a la mma rules is the pinnacle of martial arts.
No I believe that fighting in the most open ruleset available, in a full contact environment, against skilled resistant opponents is the best test of one's art and one's skills. The folks who were successful in more open rulesets like Pride are the same ones who are successful in the slightly more restrictive unified rules.


That's fine. You are entitled to believe that but quite frankly that is the pinnacle of competitive martial arts as held within that venue.

None of it deals with all the other aspects or different martial arts out there.

It's the most open ruleset avalable and the most reaalistic venue to showcase and test combative skills. TCMA doesn't deal with the self defence aspects outside of combative techniques any better than it deal with combative techniques. There are schools which do that quite impressively and they're not TCMA.



BJJ, MT, Judo and Boxing in't the only martial arts going.

You also have a tendency to dismiss outright anything that someone presents to you as valid because it doesn't fall into your artificial construct.
The proof is in the pudding. Beat high level competitors when you have only trained TCMA and you prove it's effectiveness.


To that end, you are acting like a troll and not really contributing anything here. And yes, the onus is on you when you make demands to have a few placed on you as well.

So far, you have not. Which is pretty much keeping you at the level of troll and you are drudging up the same old same old crap that gets old and tired.

As I've said I can provide numerous examples of people who have won in fairly open rulesets who have only trained in modern, progressive fighting styles. I'm challenging others to do the same and they cannot. That is all. You and others only view me as a troll because I'm challenging a complacent view of things, asking for evidence and all people can put up are excuses.


Traditional arts have been around for a long time. they aren't going to go away because of your weird hatred of them and you aren't going to change many minds here as most guys that practice, that actually practice have already adjusted their understanding to that reality.
I don't hate them but if they want to be taken seriously they need to step up to the plate and quit making excuses.


I know how hard it is to find a regular sparring partner. It's hard! You make it sound like everyone should just be able to find that easily. Not true.
Martial arts requires work. I know this may be news to some folks.


Even with the rise in white collar boxers, it is hard to find a decent sparring partner. How much of your training cycle is live full contact sparing anyway? If you are on a circuit and getting paid, I would expect that to be in your regimen, but if you are a hobbyist, like 99% of all people studying martial arts, then the varietal garden of martial arts is way more important and ring sparring sessions are actually not that useful to you in your development or interest.
So all of the hobbyists go to TCMA and all of the folks actually interested in fighting go to the fighting arts. That's what you're saying?


Further to that, even the greatest sport fighter in the world only get's his day for a while. Most of the people who practice mma don't fight pro. Heck, they don't even fight amateur. They just go to walmart and mimic GSP for 30 minutes or something.
So you have large populations in the progressive fighting arts and TCMA and of the two only one can produce winning fighters. See an issue there?


I prefer a full well rounded study that includes books, swords, boxing, kickboxing, sharing, exercise, and all that other stuff. Much more rewarding.
Those are all training components. Now if you were talking about something like bladed weapons like swords, spears, etc in regard to competition then you have a valid reason for dismissing competition as you have a huge change in mechanics, targets, necessary follow through, which techniques will stop retaliation etc. But with hand to hand combat that just doesn't fit.


This whole sport vs Traditional is a tired old washed up subject. Everything is everything and everything has something of value in it to be learned provided that is what the individual wants.
So how come TCMA can't win?


If a guy wants a Ford, he doesn't care how great you think a Toyota is. That's the bottom line. good old car analogies. :p
That's a bad analogy. Combat effectiveness is the basis of martial arts. If you don't have that it may as well be a bridge club. A car drives on the road. The guy wants a Ford but it has no wheels.

[MightyB]

The proof is in the pudding. Beat high level competitors when you have only trained TCMA and you prove it's effectiveness.

So you have large populations in the progressive fighting arts and TCMA and of the two only one can produce winning fighters. See an issue there?

So how come TCMA can't win?

This is an unfair argument that really needs to stop on this forum. Not just from you but all MMA vs TCMA trollers.

No person at a high level, or even a mid level is an island, and nobody does just one MA if they're competitive. You find different coaches for different aspects of the game. I very much believe that we'll start seeing more people with unique MA backgrounds that will include TCMA in the future of sports combat.

[Bacon]

This is an unfair argument that really needs to stop on this forum. Not just from you but all MMA vs TCMA trollers.

No person at a high level, or even a mid level is an island, and nobody does just one MA if they're competitive. You find different coaches for different aspects of the game. I very much believe that we'll start seeing more people with unique MA backgrounds that will include TCMA in the future of sports combat.

But until they start winning by fighting like something other than kickboxing when they started in a TCMA, then folks will always say that they're kickboxing because that's exactly what they're doing.

If mantis was the dominant style of striking and I trained in boxing but it lode like mantis when I fought we'd be on opposite ends of this discussion.

And again, MMA isn't a style but a ruleset. It's about TCMA versus progressive fighting methods. Boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, wrestling, bjj, and the occasional appearances of sambo, judo, and karate. TCMAers are always welcome to try to win in MMA.

[MightyB]

But until they start winning by fighting like something other than kickboxing when they started in a TCMA, then folks will always say that they're kickboxing because that's exactly what they're doing.

If mantis was the dominant style of striking and I trained in boxing but it lode like mantis when I fought we'd be on opposite ends of this discussion.

And again, MMA isn't a style but a ruleset. It's about TCMA versus progressive fighting methods. Boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, wrestling, bjj, and the occasional appearances of sambo, judo, and karate. TCMAers are always welcome to try to win in MMA.

It isn't traditional per se, but you are already seeing San Da (Cung Le) entering into the MMA world. I think the next logical Traditional Chinese Art to be represented will be Shuai Jiao. IMO, none of the overspecialized arts will have much of a chance, but shaolin long fist and CLF could get some representation.

[Robinhood]

MMA is not combat effectiveness, it is just a sport, the rules have eliminated most efficient effective martial moves. If you don't know or can't do them, then you will dwell on only the physical attributes of combat , which are just strong beats weak and fast beats slow , which has very little to do with TCMA, but works great in sporting events.

MMA does show who is tougher and in better shape at the time, but not much high level martial skill, more like high level brute force skill, there are exceptions also, like Machida and Anderson Silva , and probably few more, but take it for what it is, sport fighting, not efficient effective fighting.

[bawang]

the most important part of learning is to fail, so you can learn from your mistakes.

[MightyB]

MMA is not combat effectiveness, it is just a sport, the rules have eliminated most efficient effective martial moves. If you don't know or can't do them, then you will dwell on only the physical attributes of combat , which are just strong beats weak and fast beats slow , which has very little to do with TCMA, but works great in sporting events.


You need to drop this belief if you want to see TCMA make it to the next level. This thought process holds the TCMA arts back.

If you go to Japan and say you do Judo or Karate, most people will respond with "you must be very strong". Think about this.

[Bacon]

It isn't traditional per se, but you are already seeing San Da (Cung Le) entering into the MMA world. I think the next logical Traditional Chinese Art to be represented will be Shuai Jiao. IMO, none of the overspecialized arts will have much of a chance, but shaolin long fist and CLF could get some representation.

Actually Shuai Jiao is probably the only TCMA I think has 100% valid application in its field which is wrestling for takedowns from the clinch. It would need to be supplemented by some very good clinch striking work (much like Judo) which would probably be muay Thai.

Sanda uses modern training methods and equipment and is a relatively recent creation so I wouldn't say it's traditional.

I'll wait to see. I'd love it if they could start winning. It would be nice to see a bit more variety as we've seen on occasion with some judoka and samboists.

[bawang]

I'll wait to see. I'd love it if they could start winning. It would be nice to see a bit more variety as we've seen on occasion with some judoka and samboists.

cung le beat rich franklin. what the fuk do you want?

[Robinhood]

You need to drop this belief if you want to see TCMA make it to the next level. This thought process holds the TCMA arts back.

If you go to Japan and say you do Judo or Karate, most people will respond with "you must be very strong". Think about this.

You probably will be strong, when you get good you won't worry about being strong.

[bawang]

You probably will be strong, when you get good you won't worry about being strong.

if you dont lift weights, you are not training real kung fu.

[Kellen Bassette]

It isn't traditional per se, but you are already seeing San Da (Cung Le) entering into the MMA world. I think the next logical Traditional Chinese Art to be represented will be Shuai Jiao. IMO, none of the overspecialized arts will have much of a chance, but shaolin long fist and CLF could get some representation.

Yi Long won some Sanda title, he trains traditional Shaolin; and beat some decent MT fighters, but I didn't bring him up because he hasn't faught Silva yet...:rolleyes:

I'm sure Bacon would call him Sanda anyway.even though he's always demoing Shaolin forms and touting himself as traditional.

Cung Le calls himself traditional, Dana White calls him traditional...he claims Sanshou/Kung Fu as his base...(on his own page) but people still try to credit his success to TKD and wrestling; even though he says he is, and reps, sanshou and Kung Fu...(his words) He also has taught Sanshou, and written a book, and done a video series on it...but that can't be the major part of his training...:rolleyes:

But whatevs... a MT dude held pads for him and he's a purple belt in BJJ, so whatever he considers his base doesn't mean as much as what arm chair fighters think of him.

I think Shaolin and CLF will be represented as well. You'll see someone Like Machida or GSP come up, with a strong KF base, the way they have strong Karate bases..then we will argue that a boxer held pads for them and they learned some BJJ, so they can't have a base the way other fighters have a MT base and also learn some BJJ.

[Bacon]

cung le beat rich franklin. what the fuk do you want?

A TCMAer to win who doesn't train sanda or kickboxing and who doesn't win by kickboxing.

[Kellen Bassette]

You probably will be strong, when you get good you won't worry about being strong.

The opinions expressed by Robinhood are his own and in no way reflect the views of the TCMA community that actually trains for combat.

[bawang]

A TCMAer to win who doesn't train sanda or kickboxing and who doesn't win by kickboxing.

you said you would love to see sanda start winning in mma. they do.

keep doing your chi sao. one day you will chi sao your way into the octagon for sure.

[Bacon]

you said you would love to see sanda start winning in mma. they do.

keep doing your chi sao. one day you will chi sao your way into the octagon for sure.

Actually sanda is very good. It's a very modern martial art and I love the way they blend the takedowns into the striking.

What I said was if the TCMAs can win in open full contact rulesets without kickboxing I'd love that and I'd love to watch it.

[Kellen Bassette]

Regarding what is traditional/non-traditional, what is the cutoff date, then?

I was actually going to do a thread on this at some point. I feel like the general definition of a traditional MA is any art originating from China, Okinawa, Japan or Korea, prior to the 1960's.

I don't agree with this at all. But that seems to be a generally excepted definition. No one really thinks of Capoeira, or any non-Asian MA as traditional, regardless of their age. Also it seems like the Indo-Chinese arts, despite some of them being very old, are usually not considered traditional.

I think age would be a better definition, myself.

[bawang]

Actually sanda is very good. It's a very modern martial art and I love the way they blend the takedowns into the striking.

What I said was if the TCMAs can win in open full contact rulesets without kickboxing I'd love that and I'd love to watch it.

sanda is western boxing combined with mongolian wrestling. its a totally unchinese sport.

real tcma looks just like sanda.

you will never understand real kung fu.

[Robinhood]

The opinions expressed by Robinhood are his own and in no way reflect the views of the TCMA community that actually trains for combat.

If I trained for sport combat, I would train just like everybody else, endurance ..etc.

[Kellen Bassette]

sanda is western boxing combined with mongolian wrestling. its a totally unchinese sport.

real tcma looks just like sanda.

you will never understand real kung fu.

I'll agree real TCMA tends to look like Sanda, when applied...but Sanda non-Chinese? C'mon...Side Kicks, Taiji foot catch, takedown, sweeps, ect...that stuff is all Chinese...didn't come from western boxing or Mongolian wrestling.

[bawang]

If I trained for sport combat, I would train just like everybody else, endurance ..etc.

if.

sdfdsfdsf

[Kellen Bassette]

If I trained for sport combat, I would train just like everybody else, endurance ..etc.

Endurance is foundational to the traditional, external arts.

[bawang]

I'll agree real TCMA tends to look like Sanda, when applied...but Sanda non-Chinese? C'mon...Side Kicks, Taiji foot catch, takedown, sweeps, ect...that stuff is all Chinese...didn't come from western boxing or Mongolian wrestling.

shuaijiao is chinese in the sense that karate is japanese.


i was saying even though sanda is modern, tcma looks like sanda anyways. people dont believe it because the bruce lee hamster wheel has gone out of control.

[Robinhood]

if you dont lift weights, you are not training real kung fu.

Weights don't hit back !. Real to who?, a weight is just a form of resistance, if I plan on resisting people, then I would lift them.

If I need to be strong to make my kung fu work, must be pretty lame kung fu.

[Jimbo]

I was actually going to do a thread on this at some point. I feel like the general definition of a traditional MA is any art originating from China, Okinawa, Japan or Korea, prior to the 1960's.

I don't agree with this at all. But that seems to be a generally excepted definition. No one really thinks of Capoeira, or any non-Asian MA as traditional, regardless of their age. Also it seems like the Indo-Chinese arts, despite some of them being very old, are usually not considered traditional.

I think age would be a better definition, myself.

I also disagree with the general definition. A traditional MA is not limited to China, Japan, Okinawa or Korea. EVERY country or culture, in or out of east Asia, has some type of traditional MA. Capoeira is certainly a traditional MA, by the general definition. French Savate is a traditional art. The African countries have their own MAs.

However, I'm not certain about age, either. Any art that has been around long enough that has enough of a following, even if a very young art, could be said to have its own traditions. Even if that tradition is to buck tradition. And even then, they are always evolving.

I remember Joe Rogan talking during one of Machida's fights, saying that Machida's round kicks are different from the "traditional round kicks in MMA". As if a snapping karate round kick is some kind of revelation. So in his mind, and the minds of many others, the commonly-accepted mix that is modern MMA is already traditional in its own right. Perhaps "traditional" has more to do with a certain degree of popular acceptance of a custom, art, or whatever, than the number of years it's been around.

[Kellen Bassette]

shuaijiao is chinese in the sense that karate is japanese.


i was saying even though sanda is modern, tcma looks like sanda anyways. people dont believe it because the bruce lee hamster wheel has gone out of control.

I'd say SJ is Mongolian in the same way BJJ is Japanese. A lot has changed since then....But giving you SJ for sake of argument, there's still an awful lot of Chinese in the striking.

I agree with you on the rest of it.

[bawang]

Weights don't hit back !. Real to who?, a weight is just a form of resistance, if I plan on resisting people, then I would lift them.

If I need to be strong to make my kung fu work, must be pretty lame kung fu.

then stick to whatever taijixingyibagua/wingchun youre doing, because real traditiional kung fu trained by real chinese people is too "low" for you.


the sign of being a man is strength. thats what affirms your maleness. youve been brainwashed for so long you are a woman with a penus.

[Kellen Bassette]

Weights don't hit back !. Real to who?, a weight is just a form of resistance, if I plan on resisting people, then I would lift them.

If I need to be strong to make my kung fu work, must be pretty lame kung fu.

Wait it all makes sense now!! Strength and endurance would never come into play in a fight!! Sparring is just a waist of time that could be better spent slowly striking the air!

I've seen the light!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course weights hit back, anyone that has ever dropped a weight knows that !!
LOL !

Anyone that has done any kind of research into the history practical TCMA knows that weight training has always been a part of TCMA in some form or another.
To deny that is to deny tradition.

[Robinhood]

if.

sdfdsfdsf

When I was young and did not know any better I did.

[Kellen Bassette]

I remember Joe Rogan talking during one of Machida's fights, saying that Machida's round kicks are different from the "traditional round kicks in MMA".

That really puts some perspective on "traditional."

Did I mention Rogan is an idiot? :rolleyes:

[bawang]

Of course weights hit back, anyone that has ever dropped a weight knows that !!
LOL !

Anyone that has done any kind of research into the history practical TCMA knows that weight training has always been a part of TCMA in some form or another.
To deny that is to deny tradition.

when i thought traditional kung fu did not lift weights, i refused to lift weights. it is tradition.

when i found out traditional kung fu lifted weights, five minutes later i went to the gym.


it is tradition.

[Jimbo]

I'd say SJ is Mongolian in the same way BJJ is Japanese.

Although BJJ has had many innovations since it left Japan, even before Maeda taught it to the Gracies, I found it interesting that, in an interview I read some time back, Rickson Gracie called BJJ (or at least GJJ) a Japanese martial art, and that he was happy there was so much interest in it in Japan, and that many Japanese can now learn many of the techniques that were forgotten/abandoned in Japan over the past several decades.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When I was young and did not know any better I did.

By the reading of your posts, you still don't.

[Kellen Bassette]

Anyone that has done any kind of research into the history practical TCMA knows that weight training has always been a part of TCMA in some form or another.
To deny that is to deny tradition.

Yes...and partner training and sparring. I'm always griping that people call themselves traditional, but don't train traditionally. But that's the state of things.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes...and partner training and sparring. I'm always griping that people call themselves traditional, but don't train traditionally. But that's the state of things.

Indeed.
Most people's idea of tradition is somewhere along the lines of:
Must have kung fu uniform and learn from asian teacher !

[Kellen Bassette]

Although BJJ has had many innovations since it left Japan, even before Maeda taught it to the Gracies, I found it interesting that, in an interview I read some time back, Rickson Gracie called BJJ (or at least GJJ) a Japanese martial art, and that he was happy there was so much interest in it in Japan, and that many Japanese can now learn many of the techniques that were forgotten/abandoned in Japan over the past several decades.

He also credited SJ and Chin na as the base material for BJJ...he seems like he was a smart guy. I dislike it when people don't pay any respect to the roots of their arts.

I was at a MT fight and one of my friends griped about the fighters performing the Wai Kru, complaining they wasted a day of training to learn that stupid dance. This seemed very disrespectful to me.

[Jimbo]

Indeed.
Most people's idea of tradition is somewhere along the lines of:
Must have kung fu uniform and learn from asian teacher !

I think you can add to that, must dispense fortune cookie quotes.

[pazman]

When I was young and did not know any better I did.

Robinhood, you're a ****ing insult to Chinese martial arts.

[pazman]

When you go to the gym you can the see only people who care about their health and fitness are the one who include deadlift in their workout routine.

The gym I joined in Wuhan had very few people who did deadlift. Two people I always saw doing deadlift one or twice a week was a taiji teacher and his student. He was never too keen on talking with me, but he was nice enough. One of things he said to me was "if you don't train strength, you don't have gongfu."

[David Jamieson]

No I believe that fighting in the most open ruleset available, in a full contact environment, against skilled resistant opponents is the best test of one's art and one's skills. The folks who were successful in more open rulesets like Pride are the same ones who are successful in the slightly more restrictive unified rules. There's not a lot of difference in those. Say, what do you think of pro boxing? All those guys useless too because they lack legs and ground work? It's a sport. Your belief about fighting is rendered invalid by your own statement here.



It's the most open ruleset avalable and the most reaalistic venue to showcase and test combative skills. TCMA doesn't deal with the self defence aspects outside of combative techniques any better than it deal with combative techniques. There are schools which do that quite impressively and they're not TCMA. There are no weapons, there are plenty of rules. Your scope is very limited if you think this is the measure of man and his ability to make violence on another. It's sport. there's no combat football either, but it's got violence too....





The proof is in the pudding. Beat high level competitors when you have only trained TCMA and you prove it's effectiveness. Oxymoronic phrasology you have chosen. How does on bring tcma into an mma format without allowing tcma it's treasures? IE: weapons? If your sport is greater than my TCMA, then bring your BJJ and I will bring my sword. We'll see how you measure up. Now, that sounds stupid right? Look to your own commentary as that sinks in.




As I've said I can provide numerous examples of people who have won in fairly open rulesets who have only trained in modern, progressive fighting styles. I'm challenging others to do the same and they cannot. That is all. You and others only view me as a troll because I'm challenging a complacent view of things, asking for evidence and all people can put up are excuses.

You're not actually challenging anything. You're once again, like so many others before you, comparing apples to oranges and declaring yourself to be more able minded in doing so. Judokas suck at boxing, why don't they put more boxing into their art. It's stupid that they only throw. < This is actually what you are doing.



I don't hate them but if they want to be taken seriously they need to step up to the plate and quit making excuses.

No. You hate them. Just admit it and move on. You'll feel better. Your words are poorly veiled and you are quite apparent.



Martial arts requires work. I know this may be news to some folks.
You would like to think so I'm sure. You say a lot of silly things like this. You do realize that there are people here reading your dreck that have been working at it for a long time right? But hey, why don't you just disregard that and continue to shoot off from the hip about a subject it is more and more clear you know little about.



So all of the hobbyists go to TCMA and all of the folks actually interested in fighting go to the fighting arts. That's what you're saying? Not at all. I can point to many mma schools that have huge rollovers in students due to...well, usually they don't like to be hit. lol In mma clubs, they get hit a lot sooner and so, those clubs have higher turn off. Wrestling or grappling gyms, not so much because people don't hit each other in those places so much. I've btdt, got the shirt and still see it frequently. You think someone is better for pursuing mma? I'd say their length of study will statistically be shorter than someone who chose a traditional art, but even then, people drop out.



So you have large populations in the progressive fighting arts and TCMA and of the two only one can produce winning fighters. See an issue there?

"progressive" what's that? You got an extra arm or something. I don't see mma guys doing well in TCMA tournaments. In fact, they almost never show up to compete or even to try out. I think it's because they don't know any tcma and have nothing to offer or something? What do you think?



Those are all training components. Now if you were talking about something like bladed weapons like swords, spears, etc in regard to competition then you have a valid reason for dismissing competition as you have a huge change in mechanics, targets, necessary follow through, which techniques will stop retaliation etc. But with hand to hand combat that just doesn't fit.

TCMA spends more time with weapons at the high end. So...what do?



So how come TCMA can't win? Who says it can't? You ever boxed a guy with a sword? Have you won? In anything?



That's a bad analogy. Combat effectiveness is the basis of martial arts. If you don't have that it may as well be a bridge club. A car drives on the road. The guy wants a Ford but it has no wheels. Empty hand fighting is not combat effective dude. Don't know why you think it is, but empty hand fighting is the most INEFFECTIVE method of combat known to man bar none.

[LaRoux]

MMA is not combat effectiveness, it is just a sport, the rules have eliminated most efficient effective martial moves. If you don't know or can't do them, then you will dwell on only the physical attributes of combat , which are just strong beats weak and fast beats slow , which has very little to do with TCMA, but works great in sporting events.

MMA does show who is tougher and in better shape at the time, but not much high level martial skill, more like high level brute force skill, there are exceptions also, like Machida and Anderson Silva , and probably few more, but take it for what it is, sport fighting, not efficient effective fighting.

I present Exhibit A of why so many people think TCMA practitioners are so out of touch with reality.

[Robinhood]

Robinhood, you're a ****ing insult to Chinese martial arts.

Coming from you and your limited experience and knowledge , your opinion is next to worthless, " the empty vessel bellows loudest" seems to apply a lot in most forums.

[Robinhood]

I present Exhibit A of why so many people think TCMA practitioners are so out of touch with reality.


The majority of people are always clueless, who cares what they think, its what's true that counts.

If you are in the majority then you are probably one of the clueless ,

[LaRoux]

Traditional- focusing on attempting to keep the "flavor" of your style.

Modern- focusing on using what works.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditional- focusing on attempting to keep the "flavor" of your style.

Modern- focusing on using what works.

That is what it has become, but not what it used to be.
A lack of evolution is what has happened in some circles and the reason is natural selection.
Because certain systems MUST fight to survive, natural selection makes them be effective and what isn't to be "disregarded".
Those that do not fight to survive, the process of natural selection is less active ( if active at all) and as such they do no evolve as they should.

[Robinhood]

Traditional- focusing on attempting to keep the "flavor" of your style.

Modern- focusing on using what works.

A style is just a training tool, don't get attached to the tool.

[Bacon]

There's not a lot of difference in those. Say, what do you think of pro boxing? All those guys useless too because they lack legs and ground work? It's a sport. Your belief about fighting is rendered invalid by your own statement here.

You're not actually challenging anything. You're once again, like so many others before you, comparing apples to oranges and declaring yourself to be more able minded in doing so. Judokas suck at boxing, why don't they put more boxing into their art. It's stupid that they only throw. < This is actually what you are doing.
Isolating an area of combat is not a problem boxing and judo are effective when integrated into freer rulesets. Wrestling does the same thing. They're all very effective in more open ruleset.


There are no weapons, there are plenty of rules. Your scope is very limited if you think this is the measure of man and his ability to make violence on another. It's sport. there's no combat football either, but it's got violence too....

Oxymoronic phrasology you have chosen. How does on bring tcma into an mma format without allowing tcma it's treasures? IE: weapons? If your sport is greater than my TCMA, then bring your BJJ and I will bring my sword. We'll see how you measure up. Now, that sounds stupid right? Look to your own commentary as that sinks in.

We're talking about empty handed combat. Essentially what you're saying is that your empty handed combat is ineffective and you have to overcompensate by bringing a weapon into unarmed combat.
If you feel the rules are too constrictive by disallowing weapons and restricting certain targets/strikes and so on then do like the Gracies did and create your own fighting competition which allows those things.


No. You hate them. Just admit it and move on. You'll feel better. Your words are poorly veiled and you are quite apparent.
Nope. I'd love to see them succeed but until they ge toff their complacent backsides that will never happen.


Not at all. I can point to many mma schools that have huge rollovers in students due to...well, usually they don't like to be hit. lol In mma clubs, they get hit a lot sooner and so, those clubs have higher turn off. Wrestling or grappling gyms, not so much because people don't hit each other in those places so much. I've btdt, got the shirt and still see it frequently. You think someone is better for pursuing mma? I'd say their length of study will statistically be shorter than someone who chose a traditional art, but even then, people drop out.
If folks don't like getting thrown, choked, submitted, and hit then they have no place in martial arts. Martial arts are about combat and if you can't deal then you shouldn't be in it.


"progressive" what's that? You got an extra arm or something. I don't see mma guys doing well in TCMA tournaments. In fact, they almost never show up to compete or even to try out. I think it's because they don't know any tcma and have nothing to offer or something? What do you think?

It means using modern training methods and materials.
As far as mma fighter going to TCMA tournaments, mma is the ruleset with the high level fighters and the high viewership. The big boys don't step down from the small stage to fight on the little one. You have to step UP.


TCMA spends more time with weapons at the high end. So...what do?
Like I said if that is why the hand techniques are inadequate then you need to be honest about that. And if weapons are really where TCMA's real skill lies then you need to quit arguining that it can hold its own with these other arts when it clearly can't. If you want to showcase the weapons skills then create a way to do so.


Who says it can't? You ever boxed a guy with a sword? Have you won? In anything?
And you carry one around all the time? That's moron talk and you know it.


Empty hand fighting is not combat effective dude. Don't know why you think it is, but empty hand fighting is the most INEFFECTIVE method of combat known to man bar none.

Yes, people use weapons to gain an advantage but TCMA also trains empty handed because you won't always have a weapon and even when you do you need empty handed skills to support it, it just can't hold its own in that arena. If you want to showcase weapons skills, find a way to do so but don't tell me TCMA can hold its own in empty handed combat with these arts when it clearly can't.

[LaRoux]

Empty hand fighting is not combat effective dude. Don't know why you think it is, but empty hand fighting is the most INEFFECTIVE method of combat known to man bar none.

You are right about empty hand fighting is not very effective compared to fighting with weapons.

However, when it comes to weapons, the shortcomings with TCMA weapons is even more pronounced than it is with empty-hand training. Very rarely will you ever see TCMA weapons practitioners practice, train, and spar full contact against each other.

[pazman]

Coming from you and your limited experience and knowledge , your opinion is next to worthless, " the empty vessel bellows loudest" seems to apply a lot in most forums.

When you stop wearing women's underwear and demonstrate a basic level of understanding of cma, then perhaps someday your opinion can be listened to.

[Robinhood]

When you stop wearing women's underwear and demonstrate a basic level of understanding of cma, then perhaps someday your opinion can be listened to.

Looking in the mirror again ., LOL, speak for yourself, Your posts give away your lack of experience and knowledge , maybe 3 to 6 years, anything over that and you have been wasting your time.

[David Jamieson]

You are right about empty hand fighting is not very effective compared to fighting with weapons.

However, when it comes to weapons, the shortcomings with TCMA weapons is even more pronounced than it is with empty-hand training. Very rarely will you ever see TCMA weapons practitioners practice, train, and spar full contact against each other.

I disagree. I have a Pell. What do you use for full force striking and weapon retention?

Sparring can be carried out in various formats with bamboo or foam replacements. I prefer to fence, attack the pell and learn positioning and technique.

Knife fighting is not hard to figure out how to spar effectively and to say "full contact weapon sparring" is to denote an unknowing of how to properly train a weapon. No offense, but that very idea is what I am suggesting is quite wrong about what people think training is or fighting is. They are not one in the same.

If you are advanced in years in TCMA and have not really grasped understanding of staff or sword, I'd say you got burned along the way. ALL tcma of any merit have weapons training. SanDa being the sport aspect, doesn't contain this.

If I was a college guy who drank at the bar a lot, i'd give some merit to the idea of value in understanding fisticuffs. But as a guy hitting 50 who's done some living, I see that kind of thinking and naught more than bizarre really, filled with ego and generally spouted by people who have done no such thing as they claim. lol

[pazman]

Looking in the mirror again ., LOL, speak for yourself, Your posts give away your lack of experience and knowledge , maybe 3 to 6 years, anything over that and you have been wasting your time.

Is this the part where you reveal your training experience?:rolleyes:

[bawang]

Coming from you and your limited experience and knowledge , your opinion is next to worthless, " the empty vessel bellows loudest" seems to apply a lot in most forums.

youve been bellowing pretty loud.

[Robinhood]

youve been bellowing pretty loud.

You have me beat by miles.

[bawang]

You have me beat by miles.

i am loud like a cannon that shoots wisdom. you are loud like an overfed swine rolling in its own feces.

[Robinhood]

Is this the part where you reveal your training experience?:rolleyes:

LOL,
No, you need to get your own experence , if you can find it.

[Robinhood]

i am loud like a cannon that shoots wisdom. you are loud like an overfed swine rolling in its own feces.


LOL, Maybe your shooting blanks ?,

[bawang]

LOL, Maybe your shooting blanks ?,

i assure you my wisdom cannon is working correctly and is shooting powerful wisdom all over your face and hair.

[Robinhood]

i assure you my wisdom cannon is working correctly and is shooting powerful wisdom all over your face and hair.

I am sure you missed, either shooting blanks or bad aim.

Site it in on your Mom first .

[bawang]

I am sure you missed, either shooting blanks or bad aim.

Site it in on your Mom first .

you just havent tasted real wisdom. if you had, you would say, "thank you bawang, for giving me the gift of your wisdom, your holy seed. may it bring me perfect health and everlasting life."

[EarthDragon]

did I just find out Bacon does wingchun?
now this explains everything I don't blame you now for hating TMCA.
Go ask for your money back........ of course center line pigeon toed chi csao tui sao doesn't work in real combat so therefore I understand, try taking mantis CLF shujiao heck even hungar you will like it better. and you will be able to defend yourself against somebody

[pazman]

http://www.tht.org.uk/~/media/545F12CB49E94727BDB227FEACAF8109.ashx

I know who robinhood is now.

(Nice necklace you have there.)

[bawang]

did I just find out Bacon does wingchun?
now this explains everything I don't blame you now for hating TMCA.
Go ask for your money back........ of course center line pigeon toed chi csao tui sao doesn't work in real combat so therefore I understand, try taking mantis CLF shujiao heck even hungar you will like it better. and you will be able to defend yourself against somebody

i think u guys are getting trolled again.

the extreme hardcore mma guy never seems to argue with the extreme internal guy. they dont even ackowledge each others existence.

[YouKnowWho]

the extreme hardcore mma guy never seems to argue with the extreme internal guy. they dont even ackowledge each others existence.

Compare to "internal guys", we are not conservative enough. Compare to "MMA guys", we are not liberal enough.

I like to call myself as "liberal democrat". I used to call coach Ross as "socialism". Compare to our MMA friends, they are "communist".

[Robinhood]

http://www.tht.org.uk/~/media/545F12CB49E94727BDB227FEACAF8109.ashx





You did not have to post a picture of yourself.

Liberals always take everything personally..

[Robinhood]

you just havent tasted real wisdom. if you had, you would say, "thank you bawang, for giving me the gift of your wisdom, your holy seed. may it bring me perfect health and everlasting life."

Do you have any more of that stuff your smoking ?, and your seeds might only take root in virgin ears.

[bawang]

Do you have any more of that stuff your smoking ?, and your seeds might only take root in virgin ears.

your ear has been ravished and plundered by many internal sifus. now it is loose and hanging like sleeve of wizard, and will not listen to reason.

[EarthDragon]

yes I believe thats the case Bawang, foiled again!
YKW this is great! LOl

speaking about..............what happened to Ross?
dont even acknowledge each others existence.
Compare to "internal guys", we are not conservative enough. Compare to "MMA guys", we are not liberal enough.
I like to call myself as "liberal democrat". I used to call coach Ross as "socialism". Compare to our MMA friends, they are "communist". [/QUOTE]

[Robinhood]

your ear has been ravished and plundered by many internal sifus. now it is loose and hanging like sleeve of wizard, and will not listen to reason.

I already have experienced your reasoning, it is nothing special, and limited in application.

It is common to bash things that threaten your limited beliefs.

[Syn7]

I already have experienced your reasoning, it is nothing special, and limited in application.

It is common to bash things that threaten your beliefs.

Yeah you say that now. But when "yellow dragon hunts in cave" is applied you will change your tune.