Hardest part of mimicing your style

[EarthDragon]

I find my students look great when doing application slow controlled techniques etc etc, then when we go at it and I expect a change during free fighting but it seems as they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?

[bawang]

have them close in and backaway instead of trying to do those movie sequences of nonstop blocking and hitting.

they doing slap boxing becaues they forgot footwork.

[Robinhood]

I find my students look great when doing application slow controlled techniques etc etc, then when we go at it and I expect a change during free fighting but it seems as they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?

They are not ready to spar!, Maybe they should watch "Karate Kid" again.

[bawang]

They are not ready to spar!, Maybe they should watch "Karate Kid" again.

you will never be ready to spar, wing chun subhuman. your muscle have atrophied to size of a paraplegic from years of sil nim tao.

[Bacon]

I find my students look great when doing application slow controlled techniques etc etc, then when we go at it and I expect a change during free fighting but it seems as they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?

Well for the wing chun I train it's a matter of careful progression through the drills at each level getting more and more resistant; working the chi sao so the techniques can be applied from the bridge, students aren't chasing hands, strikes are automatic when the bridge breaks, recovery of the centerline, etc. Then when we start into sparring we work engagement drills with progressive speed and resistance so the techniques don't fall apart under pressure and students get more used to integrating entering, bridgin, and then using the techniques from chi sao.

Like many very traditional karate karate schools most students won't even begin the entry drills to progress into sparring for a few years. Until then most of the techniques, mechanics, and drills are not embedded well enough and what happens is exactly what you described with your students.

[bawang]

Well for the wing chun I train it's a matter of careful progression through the drills at each level getting more and more resistant; working the chi sao so the techniques can be applied from the bridge, students aren't chasing hands, strikes are automatic when the bridge breaks, recovery of the centerline, etc. Then when we start into sparring we work engagement drills with progressive speed and resistance so the techniques don't fall apart under pressure and students get more used to integrating entering, bridgin, and then using the techniques from chi sao.

Like many very traditional karate karate schools most students won't even begin the entry drills to progress into sparring for a few years. Until then most of the techniques, mechanics, and drills are not embedded well enough and what happens is exactly what you described with your students.

you insult so many tcma about their useless kung fu against mma, and now your modern advanced progressive training consists of chi sao and bridging.

you wing chun fakes always expose your excrement eventually.

[YouKnowWho]

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?

The "style flavor" is how you will start (entering strategy from your style), and how you will finish (finish strategy from your style).

[Robinhood]

you will never be ready to spar, wing chun subhuman. your muscle have atrophied to size of a paraplegic from years of sil nim tao.

LOL, I don't do sil nim tao , are you talking from experence., or observation ?

[Bacon]

you insult so many tcma about their useless kung fu against mma, and now your modern advanced progressive training consists of chi sao and bridging.

you wing chun fakes always expose your excrement eventually.

How many times must I repeat this... mma is a ruleset, not a fighting style

And two points:
Wing chun isn't the only art I train in
Chi Sao is a drill just like clinch drills in muay Thai or wrestling

[bawang]

LOL, I don't do sil nim tao , are you talking from experence., or observation ?

do not lie. i can smell your kind. you smell like a woman during her period, when her estrogen is maximum. nice microaggresion u got there, warrior.


How many times must I repeat this... mma is a ruleset, not a fighting style



mma is a ruleset where the most efficient and effective ways of fighting in that ruleset looks very similar. because fighting is similar. not in your pigeon toed virgin girl stance.

[Bacon]

mma is a ruleset where the most efficient and effective ways of fighting in that ruleset looks very similar. because fighting is similar. not in your pigeon toed virgin girl stance.

and funny enough in fighting competitions when there were less or practically no rules the same kind of fighting dominated.

[bawang]

and funny enough in fighting competitions when there were less or practically no rules the same kind of fighting dominated.

no. it has chanaged a lot. you would know this if you actually have interest in mma, instead of having revenge fantasy about wing chun superman going in to destroy them all to regain the honor of bruce lee and yip man.

and when someone actually tries to do it, you humiliate them for having the courage of trying, like shawn obassi.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you will never be ready to spar, wing chun subhuman. your muscle have atrophied to size of a paraplegic from years of sil nim tao.

New sig line !!

[Bacon]

no. it has chanaged a lot. you would know this if you actually have interest in mma, instead of having revenge fantasy about wing chun superman going in to destroy them all to regain the honor of bruce lee and yip man.

and when someone actually tries to do it, you humiliate them for having the courage of trying, like shawn obassi.

Except who was doing well and winning back then? Bjj guys, wrestlers, Thai boxers, kickboxers, shootfighters, free fighters. No TCMA guys at the top back then.
The revenge fantasy thing you're putting words in my mouth. The reason I bash Obasi is because he's a slugger. He fights like a gorilla and he's insane.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find my students look great when doing application slow controlled techniques etc etc, then when we go at it and I expect a change during free fighting but it seems as they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?

The only way to maintain the "mantis flavour" is consistently sparring hard with "mantis flavor".
You need to re-wire the bodies natural moves to be "mantis" and only consistent hard contact sparring does that.
You must also expose your mantis to non-mantis, the law of specificity demands this.

[Robinhood]

do not lie. i can smell your kind. you smell like a woman during her period, when her estrogen is maximum. nice microaggresion u got there, warrior.




LOL, Maybe you need to take a bath !

[sanjuro_ronin]

The sooner students start free style sparring the sooner they learn to adapt their system as natural AND get rid of horrible tendencies they already have and those that "point" and "controlled" sparring WILL create.
Students start sparring as soon as they can in many other systems like boxing, MT, Kyokushin, KB, Judo, BJJ and so forth and the one thing all those styles have in common is they produce good fighters AND they fight (look) like they train.

[Bacon]

The only way to maintain the "mantis flavour" is consistently sparring hard with "mantis flavor".
You need to re-wire the bodies natural moves to be "mantis" and only consistent hard contact sparring does that.
You must also expose your mantis to non-mantis, the law of specificity demands this.

^^This

You want to defend hands, defend against the boxer. You want to defend kicks, knees, and clinch, defend against Muay Thai. You want to defend takedowns, defend against the wrestler. You want to defend against a well integrated fighter, defend against a bunch of different mma fighters.

When you can do this and maintain your mantis style you will be well on your way.

[YouKnowWho]

"mantis flavour" ...

To me, the "SC flavour" is to "force a striker opponent to play the grappling game".

[sanjuro_ronin]

To me, the "SC flavour" is to "force a striker opponent to play the grappling game".

Sure and one of the best ways is to out-strike him :)

[Robinhood]

The sooner students start free style sparring the sooner they learn to adapt their system as natural AND get rid of horrible tendencies they already have and those that "point" and "controlled" sparring WILL create.
Students start sparring as soon as they can in many other systems like boxing, MT, Kyokushin, KB, Judo, BJJ and so forth and the one thing all those styles have in common is they produce good fighters AND they fight (look) like they train.

I don't agree to starting to early, it usually just helps natural abilities improve, not to learn the do the so called art.

The idea of an art is to reprogram the body to respond differently from its natural responses, and to do that takes more than just free sparring.

[YouKnowWho]

Sure and one of the best ways is to out-strike him :)

That won't be "SC flavour" IMO. I though "flavour" means to use the strong part of your style, and not to use the weak part of your style, or borrow skill from other styles.

"Cross training" guys don't talk about "flavour" for that reason.

[LaRoux]

I find my students look great when doing application slow controlled techniques etc etc, then when we go at it and I expect a change during free fighting but it seems as they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?

If the students aren't fighting "with the flavor of the style", the problem isn't the students, the problem is the style and the instructor.

If you are trying to get your students to "look" a certain way, you've missed the whole point of effectiveness.

I'd say this need to "look like your style" is one of the main things that differentiates a less effective traditional style from a more effective modern one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't agree to starting to early, it usually just helps natural abilities improve, not to learn the do the so called art.

The idea of an art is to reprogram the body to respond differently from its natural responses, and to do that takes more than just free sparring.

You learn to fight by fighting and the sooner the better and that has been proven to be the case over the centuries.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If the students aren't fighting "with the flavor of the style", the problem isn't the students, the problem is the style and the instructor.

If you are trying to get your students to "look" a certain way, you've missed the whole point of effectiveness.

I'd say this need to "look like your style" is one of the main things that differentiates a less effective traditional style from a more effective modern one.

There are distinct advantages about fighting with a style "outside the box".
The issues is that the more "distinct" a system is the MORE "cross-testing" they need.

[Robinhood]

You learn to fight by fighting and the sooner the better and that has been proven to be the case over the centuries.


There is training and testing, knowing the difference is good.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is training and testing, knowing the difference is good.

Quite true.

[maxattck]

I was rolling day one in BJJ, and sparring day one in Kyokushin. Yes you take some beating in the beginning, but I believe you learn faster what works and what does not. There is no fantasy of how great a fighter you are, you know exactly where you are at compared to others. A very humbling experience.

Compare this to when I traind wing chun and all we did was forms, chi sau and maybe the dummy. We had guys who where total not in fighting shape. They could not do fifty push ups, had bellies and in general looked soft. But they all walking around like the just won the UFC title. I think with out contact one becomes deluded about ones abilities

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was rolling day one in BJJ, and sparring day one in Kyokushin. Yes you take some beating in the beginning, but I believe you learn faster what works and what does not. There is no fantasy of how great a fighter you are, you know exactly where you are at compared to others. A very humbling experience.

Compare this to when I traind wing chun and all we did was forms, chi sau and maybe the dummy. We had guys who where total not in fighting shape. They could not do fifty push ups, had bellies and in general looked soft. But they all walking around like the just won the UFC title. I think with out contact one becomes deluded about ones abilities

Indeed.
You do NOT get pummeled and beaten to a pulp when you start sparring BUT you do get introduced to TWO of the most important things you will have to deal with in a real fight:
Getting hit and pain.

[YouKnowWho]

I was rolling day one in BJJ, and sparring day one in Kyokushin.
In articifial intellegence, this is called "backward search". You start from the leaf and search all the way back to the root. Since for any leaf, there is only 1 root. For any root, there can be many leafs. The "backward search" is always faster than the "forward search".

[Robinhood]

In articifial intellegence, this is called "backward search". You start from the leaf and search all the way back to the root. Since for any leaf, there is only 1 root. For any root, there can be many leafs. The "backward search" is always faster than the "forward search".

I would call it learning from someone better. If they are using same attributes as you, then you can copy them. Physical outside movement's are easy to copy , its the things you can't see that are hard to copy.

[maxattck]

Indeed.
You do NOT get pummeled and beaten to a pulp when you start sparring BUT you do get introduced to TWO of the most important things you will have to deal with in a real fight:
Getting hit and pain.

Yes, I agree totally. The only way to get past the fear of taking shots and recovering from getting hit is too get hit or submitted. Eventually you stop worrying about it, and it free up your game.

[Syn7]

To an extent. Some people walk right into dangerous situations because they think they can eat a few.

[jdhowland]

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?

Easier for some "styles" than others. Fortunately for me, our system "looks like" kickboxing. Gross motor skills prevail. Of couse, in private training we have greater range of movement, more rotation and follow-through, but in Lama style simplicity and redundancy of technique is stressed.


.

[-N-]

I find my students look great when doing application slow controlled techniques etc etc, then when we go at it and I expect a change during free fighting but it seems as they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?


If you are trying to get your students to "look" a certain way, you've missed the whole point of effectiveness.

I'd have to agree with that.

It's not supposed to be about mimicking. It's about actually mastering the functional skills.

The students automatically will look like Mantis if they train the skills until mastered.

The students probably have a lot of stuff that they've been exposed to, but haven't mastered. So when under pressure, it all falls apart.

Start them sparring with just one technique that they have to train with intensity. Shin kick for example. Make them spar only with shin kick for hours and hours, until they learn every aspect about using that kick and how to counter.

Then give them something else. Like right grab, left punch to the face. Have them train that until they can nail it any time they want.

Then give them front kick. They can use only front kick when sparring. Make them do front kick until they can't stand any more.

Now let them start combining only 2 techniques. Like shin kick and grab punch. Do it with intensity until it is automatic and they understand instinctively every possible way to use the 2 techniques together.

Keep going until they are combining 2 and 3 moves together correctly. Then dissallow single techniques. Force them to use only combinations. Single technique automatically loses the match.

Just keep coaching in a way that reinforces correct usage, even if some of the coaching is carried to an extreme.

[Yum Cha]

Not having seen your guys, I'll agree with Bwang that footwork is probably the key. Students get enamoured with hands and forget footwork.
And also, as several people mentioned, hit hard. We use vests and start with just exercises to strike the body hard, or pad up a senior and let the junior try what he can. Coaches will wear 10oz gloves, but students only light ones.
Essentially, deconstruct the elements, footwork, balance and control in trapping/grappling, striking with power, then bring it all together, with only light gloves and mouthguard.
Lots of intermediate drills, with power and contact, leading to hard sparring when a student can execute properly.

[Syn7]

That^^^ and lot's of leg training in a general sense. Well, whole body, I guess.
Being acrobatic will help you in so so many ways.
I find it amazing how many people in MA's can't even stand on one leg on a balance beam indefinitely.

[LaterthanNever]

Not being born a praying mantis insect! ;)

[Syn7]

While I think studying animals in combat is a great idea, I find that adding extra movement to mimic these animals is wasted movement. Sure it's neat on stage. But it's not necessary. Take the principles, leave the stylized extras for theater. If performance is your goal, cool. But if combat effectiveness is your goal, economy matters. We are humans, our bodies are unique and should be treated as such.

[bawang]

The revenge fantasy thing you're putting words in my mouth. The reason I bash Obasi is because he's a slugger. He fights like a gorilla and he's insane.

shawn obassi is strong warrior of honor with heart of lion. if you were to stand in front of him your testicles would shrink inside yourbody.

[-N-]

While I think studying animals in combat is a great idea, I find that adding extra movement to mimic these animals is wasted movement.

Did ED mean mimicking the animal, or mimicking the appearance of the system, or expecting the sparring to look exactly like the forms?

Praying Mantis doesn't mimic animal movements for the sake of their appearance. That's not what makes it Praying Mantis.

Regarding the slap fighting... one of the biggest contributors I've seen to that is when students have a weak spirit and spar in a flinchy way.

Train them to have the spirit of dominating their opponent. Then they will commit and their movements will be executed with the characteristic principles of the system.

[-N-]

... they loose most if not all the mantis flavor and look like uncontrolled slap boxing exchange.

Just so everybody is on the same page... what do you have in mind when you say "mantis flavor"?

[EarthDragon]

wow thank you everyone for the replies and suggestions they were all good in their own way, and no sillyness thats a first LOL.

bawang
YES "footwork" this is defiantly a key factor here as we have complicated footwork out whole system is designed around it and this is usually the hardest part to learn. and the first to be overlooked.

for others who posted
my first goal for the newbies 6mo -1yr is to look like the style you are fighting with and then adapt that down to real life combat and effectiveness, vs pretty but i want them to see the flavor and use the techniques I have shown them in mantis first, even to the old guys adn the ones whom are not fighter perse who will not be in real street fights anymore need this familiarity and composure when fighting or free sparring.

difference of opinion of when though some said early on I feel that's better but then some sad higher level. I would think instill it now polish or disregard it at higher levels or for combat

[-N-]

my first goal for the newbies 6mo -1yr is to look like the style you are fighting with and then adapt that down to real life combat and effectiveness

Look exactly like the forms?

Or do you mean, look like the style because they blitz in with rapid fire combos, control while attacking, change from high/low and left/right, and finish with a takedown or power move?

[EarthDragon]

-N-,

"flavor" being able to tell the difference in ones movement, body mechanics, flow application composure and origin of the animal while flowing, attacking blocking, moving, fighting forms etc etc

if I could move like the mantis not many other insects would matter:D

I judge a lot of tourneys, full contact professional /amature MMA , tough man contests forms competitions etc etc and sometimes I have to ask what style is that guy trying to do..... this is bad when its unrecognizable. it should be blatantly obvious. except for full contact MMA then we know by your book. LOL

[SimonM]

use the strong part of your style, and not to use the weak part of your style, or borrow skill from other styles.

"Cross training" guys don't talk about "flavour" for that reason.

Quoted for truth.

I've participated in a whole lot of styles over the years, some I've stuck at for five minutes, others for years, but the school that became my home school, the school whose founder I still call Sifu, is the one that encouraged cross-training, alive resistance, and playing outside of "style" comfort zones in order to improve.

Take what works. Discard the rest. Kill the buddha on the road.

[EarthDragon]

Or do you mean, look like the style because they blitz in with rapid fire combos, control while attacking, change from high/low and left/right, and finish with a takedown or power move?
yes -N- exactly

[Syn7]

Did ED mean mimicking the animal, or mimicking the appearance of the system, or expecting the sparring to look exactly like the forms?

Praying Mantis doesn't mimic animal movements for the sake of their appearance. That's not what makes it Praying Mantis.

Regarding the slap fighting... one of the biggest contributors I've seen to that is when students have a weak spirit and spar in a flinchy way.

Train them to have the spirit of dominating their opponent. Then they will commit and their movements will be executed with the characteristic principles of the system.

No I said what I said after I read the comment right before mine. It made me think of the stuff I was speaking against.

I'm pretty sure ED meant fighting looking the way it does in training.

[EarthDragon]

correct syn

[-N-]

Or do you mean, look like the style because they blitz in with rapid fire combos, control while attacking, change from high/low and left/right, and finish with a takedown or power move?


yes -N- exactly

Ok, got it.

What works for me is to train their spirit and attitude. Weak spirit holds back everything else.

Like I was saying before, start them with a single technique. Force them to use only that technique under every possible situation. You can do different training methods.

- Two partners doing same technique and nothing else.
- One partner doing only that technique, and the other doing only a single different technique.
- One partner doing only that technique, and the other can do anything.

Put them under pressure, so that they have to live or die by that technique. Abuse them psychologically if you have to and break them down. Make them drop dead tired and unable to think of anything else except for nailing that technique. Give them minimal positive reinforcement when they succeed and send them right back in for more. Make them do the "3 second death match" drill where they have to take out the other guy before you can count to 3.

After they live and breathe that technique for a few weeks and can use it instantaneously with full speed and killer intent, start over with a different single technique.

Keep doing this until they have a handful of singles.

Then give them a specific combination to use from those singles and repeat the drilling/sparring process. Then another combination, and another. 2 moves, then 3 moves, etc.

Make them spar and allow only the techniques you showed them. The singles and the combinations. Anything else is automatic loss.

After a while, allow only the combinations. Anything else loses.

After a few months of that, add takedowns. The only thing that scores is a takedown after a combination. Anything else loses.

If you are up to it, use psychological negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement has the higher potential of achieving peak individual results, but has high attrition rate. Otherwise, just use positive reinforcement. That gives you ok overall group results.

[Syn7]

I don't think I look how I train solo. But I'm pretty sure I look how I do when I free spar and/or roll. Nothing super pretty. I try to stay economic and clean as I can. But you know how it is. Getting knocked around has a way of making you look unpretty :p Nothing like an off balance strike. I guess I look the way I look with the bag, minus the getting hit back part. I guess it depends who you ask as to whether it's pretty or not. But I'm pretty sure when I'm in control I look relatively close to how I do in training. Not counting my CMA forms. But then I don't even try to look like that. I break down the principles. You will see it tho. In the steps, in the hands, in the bridges. But you will also see MT and alot of grappling too. I would not be the specimen you use to show the purity in one specific style. Lots of my combat experience predated my training too, so I'm sure that plays into it too. And wrestling was printed on me in jr high, but it was pretty easy for me to transition to a broader grappling style. I would like to try Judo, seriously. SJ sounds pretty fun too. I think I would fit in pretty well. I'm not the biggest guy, so I can always train with people stronger than me, which helps alot. Getting tossed around by high level grapplers bigger than you is by far the funnest and most frustrating part of any training I have done, lol. Awesome when you pull a win out your ass with a guy who outweighs you by 40 pounds tho. Not something that happens very often in pure grappling in class tho. :)

[LaRoux]

When the "masters" have trouble mimicking their styles, it's hard for the students to be able to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1KQefb7UnU

[EarthDragon]

-N-
great advice, I tend to rush my students along, partly because it comes second nature so I tend to move a little fast for some, also to keep the classes interesting and not too monotonous for the faster learners.

Perhaps the lack or drilling it into thier heads as well a muscle memory is part of my situation. I am going to do as you suggested tonight and see if it indeed has a a more positive outcomes

syn

I don't think I look how I train solo. But I'm pretty sure I look how I do when I free spar and/or roll. Nothing super pretty. I try to stay economic and clean as I can. But you know how it is. Getting knocked around has a way of making you look unpretty Nothing like an off balance strike

this is what I am experiencing I see them but they dont see themselves, going to record it as well so thy can see

[Kellen Bassette]

Ok, got it.

What works for me is to train their spirit and attitude. Weak spirit holds back everything else.



How do you train spirit? Those with strong spirit will embrace this style of training, those with weak spirit avoid it, make excuses and tend to drift away.

How do you make a weak spirit strong? :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

When the "masters" have trouble mimicking their styles, it's hard for the students to be able to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1KQefb7UnU

The issue is when you spent the majority of your tike "sparring" against each other, it doesn't translate all that well when you fight a system that presents you with a different "face"/ "puzzle".
This is even more crucial in "specialty systems".

[Orion Paximus]

The issue is when you spent the majority of your tike "sparring" against each other, it doesn't translate all that well when you fight a system that presents you with a different "face"/ "puzzle".
This is even more crucial in "specialty systems".

I think the only "puzzle" they were presented with was "fighting for real". it's obvious that contact fighting was not something they were used to. Don't get me wrong, I'm a traditionalist, but I also believe that sparring/fighting should be part of your training from nearly day 1.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the only "puzzle" they were presented with was "fighting for real". it's obvious that contact fighting was not something they were used to. Don't get me wrong, I'm a traditionalist, but I also believe that sparring/fighting should be part of your training from nearly day 1.

If you are a traditionalist then you HAVE to agree that sparring and fighting are there from day one because that is what they did.

I recall asking a high ranking Goju sensei from Okinawa why, as the story goes, they did only sanchin for the first year or even the first few years and he said it was because they were more focused on sparring and drills and conditioning and that sanchin complimented them perfectly.
The other forms came AFTER fighting.
I asked another high ranking goju master and he said the same thing.
They both had different teachers bit both teachers were first generation under Miyagi.

[Orion Paximus]

lol I was just making sure no one thought I was just an MMA bunghole bashing traditional arts for not fighting.

[EternalSpring]

How does you/ your school. and teachers train adn spar fights while still having the flavor of your style?

Here are a few things I've been doing that have been working for me so far:

-Tool Sparring, or basically softer contact sparring: For me and one of my friends I train with, this enabled us to gradually increase the intensity of our sparring at a slow pace (great way to begin cross training with someone you dont know well yet btw). That way, when we started off sparring, we were able to focus more on technique and footwork with less worry about pain or being hit. Then, when we felt more comfortable with our methods, we increased the intensity. Also, it's nice because there can be various "intensities" in a single round (preferably 3 or 5 min). As in, you can keep striking intensity semi light while still keeping a higher intensity in regards to grappling/sweeps/takedowns/etc.


-Shadowboxing using just _insert system(s)/style(s)/etc_ here, or what i personally call "Shadow Fu." In addition to padwork, I got a lot of benefit from shadowboxing using kung fu becuase it just helped me feel even more comfortable with the techniques and, for me, being the tense/rigid person that i am, it really helped because I could be more natural and less mechanical in application, if that makes sense. There was less thinking and more instinctive movement, imo at least.

[Robinhood]

When the "masters" have trouble mimicking their styles, it's hard for the students to be able to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1KQefb7UnU

It looked like they were doing their styles, just did not work that good.

What styles were they?, one looked like CLF,

[Robinhood]

What might work better is to build the car before you try to drive it.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think I look how I train solo.

To me, "style flavour" is certain "habit" that we have developed from partner training but not from solo training. The reason is simple. Without partner, timing, opportunity, and angle will have no meaning.

When I move in toward my opponent, I always bend my leading leg sideway a bit so my leg can run into my opponent's leading leg. That legs contact can make me to feel safe. At that moment I know where my opponent's leading leg is and I know the chance that he may kick me or knee me willl be low. I have old female friends that I haven't seen for a long time. When she ran toward me and tried to give me a hug, I ran my leg into her leg without even thinking. Sometime that caused surprise.

[Jimbo]

It looked like they were doing their styles, just did not work that good.

What styles were they?, one looked like CLF,

It names which styles: Tai Chi and White Crane.

[EarthDragon]

-Tool Sparring, or basically softer contact sparring: For me and one of my friends I train with, this enabled us to gradually increase the intensity of our sparring at a slow pace (great way to begin cross training with someone you dont know well yet btw). That way, when we started off sparring, we were able to focus more on technique and footwork with less worry about pain or being hit. Then, when we felt more comfortable with our methods, we increased the intensity. Also, it's nice because there can be various "intensities" in a single round (preferably 3 or 5 min). As in, you can keep striking intensity semi light while still keeping a higher intensity in regards to grappling/sweeps/takedowns/etc.

this is basically how I teach as well, its just when the ramp up to full contact the focus and fluidity leaves, so i was wondering form other teaches who this is avoid and retrained properly

[YouKnowWho]

You can always start your full contact by assign one person to attack and another to defend. The attaker can hit anyway he wants. The definder can only dodge, block, deflect, and clinch. It will be a good starting point for beginners.

[David Jamieson]

The style can tighten up in frame or get bigger.

I think when styles tighten up and make the frame smaller, it is harder to see the subtle differences.

My style shows when I spar inasmuch as:

-kicks are low. (shovel/jam/side/tail)
-Head is tucked. (shrugged)
-Arms and hands are up.
-weight is 60/40 in a high bow stance (looks like a typical boxing stance)

[Syn7]

is that from the cma style(s) you learn or is that because you have a boxers base?

[SPJ]

You can always start your full contact by assign one person to attack and another to defend. The attaker can hit anyway he wants. The definder can only dodge, block, deflect, and clinch. It will be a good starting point for beginners.

Yes.

The attacker may attack at will with whatever.

The defender may only use one technique to defend or one technique to counter attack.

This way both students explore the utility and weakness of a said technique in full.

Then both students switch sides.

:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can always start your full contact by assign one person to attack and another to defend. The attaker can hit anyway he wants. The definder can only dodge, block, deflect, and clinch. It will be a good starting point for beginners.

Those are drills, not the same as actually fighting.
Drills are good to develop and work on specific PARTS of fighting.
For fighting to be fighting it has to be as least predictable and restricted as possible.
Most full contact systems do not (typically) start trainees by making them overly defensive or offensive, that is something that comes out naturally i n free style sparring and then is "developed" afterwards.

[David Jamieson]

is that from the cma style(s) you learn or is that because you have a boxers base?

While I admit to boxing before kung fu study it's not really so much the case as a habit at play.

In the end, everything you've absorbed will effect you.

Having said that, fighting is going to look like fighting when it gets down to it. But I use the techniques as derived from the styles I have learned. A Chinese style punch in the face really isn't much different from a Canadian style punch in the face or an Armenian punch in the face. :p

[LaRoux]

Having said that, fighting is going to look like fighting when it gets down to it.

EFFECTIVE fighting is going to look like EFFECTIVE fighting.

If one can't get his students to fight effectively using the "flavor" of the style, maybe the style simply isn't that effective.

[Syn7]

While I admit to boxing before kung fu study it's not really so much the case as a habit at play.

In the end, everything you've absorbed will effect you.

Having said that, fighting is going to look like fighting when it gets down to it. But I use the techniques as derived from the styles I have learned. A Chinese style punch in the face really isn't much different from a Canadian style punch in the face or an Armenian punch in the face. :p

Yeah, but do you think you would have a boxers stance w/o that prior training? You know what I mean? You think you would have ended up like that if all you did was CMA?

I think I would have. But I was a bit of a fighter before I ever had any real training. So, you know, that has an effect. I know what I do and where it came from, but as an onlooker you may see the principles and recognize certain movements, but also you will see mishmash that may not be so obvious as to where I got it from. Like if you do Karate and MT and you train them both at the same time after a certain point, the techniques and principles merge and become something somewhat new.

So I guess you tuck your chin and use your shoulder? When you say hands up, what do you mean? In a boxers pose, or a modified boxers pose?

[Syn7]

EFFECTIVE fighting is going to look like EFFECTIVE fighting.

If one can't get his students to fight effectively using the "flavor" of the style, maybe the style simply isn't that effective.

Or maybe the flavour is getting in the way of the core principles that may or may not be effective.

Just coz a style isn't working doesn't mean it can't work. In bak mei I see the same form done by many others and they all have lil differences. Some sink and spit more than others, some extend more than others, etc etc... IMO how you use a style is more important than the style itself. Know what I mean by that? If you have a true understanding of the fundamental principles in any effective style, you can modify it to suit your needs.

Of course, some styles are more crap than not. Wing Chun comes to mind. :rolleyes:

Yeah sure, there are some good ideas in WC, but there is also a tone of crap. I have a friend who was pretty good at WC from a WC perspective, he could never stop me from tossing him on his back. Also when he connected it never hurt, and he was much bigger than I am. But he was like top of his class, had won forms comps, kicks ass in stickyhands etc....

[Robinhood]

EFFECTIVE fighting is going to look like EFFECTIVE fighting.

If one can't get his students to fight effectively using the "flavor" of the style, maybe the style simply isn't that effective.

It usually is not the style that is ineffective, its the person trying to do the style.

I see most styles as having lost the essence of what it takes to create the person that should be able to be effective and then he will be able to look like any style.

A style is like a guide to help you develop your effectiveness, not something that is effective.

A style is a tool, use it wrong and the results will be something else.

[Robinhood]

Of course, some styles are more crap than not. Wing Chun comes to mind. :rolleyes:

....

A lot of Wing Chun is crap, but if you understood what it takes to build an effective person, WC is head and tails more scientific and efficient in its approach than most other styles. ( the key word is "Effective Person", )

What is the meaning of effective person, sounds like good topic for a new thread.
Because I know my meaning is not the same as yours.

[Syn7]

Anyone who can break down the principles and use the techniques in any reasonable order and use them effectively is an effective student.

That being said, the more realistic the style, the less work you have to do to make it work for you.

[-N-]

-weight is 60/40 in a high bow stance (looks like a typical boxing stance)


is that from the cma style(s) you learn or is that because
you have a boxers base?

Similar for me, and mine is from Praying Mantis. Mantis calls it middle stance or monkey stance. Same difference.

It just comes down to that is the stance that works.

[-N-]

-N-
great advice, I tend to rush my students along, partly because it comes second nature so I tend to move a little fast for some, also to keep the classes interesting and not too monotonous for the faster learners.

Perhaps the lack or drilling it into thier heads as well a muscle memory is part of my situation. I am going to do as you suggested tonight and see if it indeed has a a more positive outcomes

Sounds good. But just to be sure, it will take more than just one night if you want to use this approach. More like months.

It's like, do they want to have a lot of stuff that they can sort of use. Or do they want to start with a few things that they can nail most of the time before adding more?

[-N-]

How do you train spirit? Those with strong spirit will embrace this style of training, those with weak spirit avoid it, make excuses and tend to drift away.

How do you make a weak spirit strong? :confused:

Same like for anything else. Everybody has a different aptitude or innate starting point.

Someone with a really timid spirit may never become super aggressive, but you can coach him to make some improvement. He can make some kind of improvement so that he is better than when he started. Isn't that the whole premise behind behind training?

And that's where you start getting into the collateral benefits of training martial arts. Beyond the physical skills and abilities is the mental and and spiritual training so that the person can apply that attitude to all of his life challenges, not just fighting another person.

The ability to suffer and not give up, face down your problems, and to kick your own ass in order achieve your goals.

Weak or timid spirit can come from fear or lack of confidence. As a teacher and coach, you create training opportunities for the student to stretch a little further than his current abilities. You help him little by little to let go of his fear. You make him train his skills so that he can see his gradual improvement. Even just helping him get used to being hit, so that he becomes less flinchy is a start.

[-N-]

To me, "style flavour" is certain "habit" that we have developed from partner training but not from solo training.

Sometimes people associate style with TMA and want to talk crap on it.

Even boxing has styles. Not all boxing looks the same.

Tyson has his style. Pacquiao has his. If they both started training people, their students would tend to follow the methods of their respective trainers.

[-N-]

Those are drills, not the same as actually fighting.
Drills are good to develop and work on specific PARTS of fighting.
For fighting to be fighting it has to be as least predictable and restricted as possible.
Most full contact systems do not (typically) start trainees by making them overly defensive or offensive, that is something that comes out naturally i n free style sparring and then is "developed" afterwards.

Sure, but what we're hearing from ED is that taking this approach with his students has let them have a lot of stuff that they are not using effectively.

He can scale back until they have an acceptable level of competency before letting them totally go at it.

One thing that TMA does is to isolate a particular thing and train it to an extreme. Like I had posted on other occasions, I had a 14 year old student more than hold his own against adult blackbelts because I had him train his aggressive attacking to an extreme. Yes, later I had to focus him on defense, but my goal had been to develop that high level of aggressive intent. That was part of training his spirit. When he had that, he had plenty of time to develop his other areas without mental distractions.

Either direction you approach from, you end up in the same place.

Skill, size, strength, and guts are all needed.

Musashi in his later years questioned his successes. Were they because of his skill, or was he just bigger and stronger?

[YouKnowWho]

It just comes down to that is the stance that works.

Talking about the stance that work. Onetime I sparred against a Karate guy. I stood in a low stance that my head was on his waist level. He had to punch 45 degree downward to reach me. All his favor high kicks won't work on me. Later on he said, "I hate to spar with you Kung Fu guys. Your guys fighting stance are just too low."

Anything that you do can make your opponent to feel uncomfortable, it's good strategy.

[-N-]

Talking about the stance that work. Onetime I sparred against a Karate guy. I stood in a low stance that my head was on his waist level. He had to punch 45 degree downward to reach me. All his favor high kicks won't work on me. Later on he said, "I hate to spar with you Kung Fu guys. Your guys fighting stance are just too low."

Anything that you do can make your opponent to feel uncomfortable, it's good strategy.

Haha, he didn't know how to kick your leg or your head when you were low?

[Kellen Bassette]

Talking about the stance that work. Onetime I sparred against a Karate guy. I stood in a low stance that my head was on his waist level. He had to punch 45 degree downward to reach me. All his favor high kicks won't work on me. Later on he said, "I hate to spar with you Kung Fu guys. Your guys fighting stance are just too low."

Anything that you do can make your opponent to feel uncomfortable, it's good strategy.

Absolutely, anything thing people have never come up against tends to throw them off. I usually keep the high, boxer style stance...but when I spar someone from a different discipline for the first time, I like to throw in the horse stance and crouching stance. I worry about low kicks, but it's rare they attempt them...they're usually trying to adjust and are frustrated they can't punch you.

They always comment on how different it is fighting KF when you do things like that, because most people haven't sparred someone using those methods before.

You always hear Rogan commenting on how difficult it is for some fighters to adjust to Machida and those like him, because of the "unorthodox" style. But it's all just traditional principles being thrown in.

When I started in Karate, the first time I sparred a boxer it was awkward and uncomfortable, the same the first time I sparred with a wrestler. This is why it's so bad to only spar people from your school/style.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, but do you think you would have a boxers stance w/o that prior training? You know what I mean? You think you would have ended up like that if all you did was CMA?

I think I would have. But I was a bit of a fighter before I ever had any real training. So, you know, that has an effect. I know what I do and where it came from, but as an onlooker you may see the principles and recognize certain movements, but also you will see mishmash that may not be so obvious as to where I got it from. Like if you do Karate and MT and you train them both at the same time after a certain point, the techniques and principles merge and become something somewhat new.

So I guess you tuck your chin and use your shoulder? When you say hands up, what do you mean? In a boxers pose, or a modified boxers pose?

Yes, the stance is in the style as well. It isn't exclusive to boxing at all although that is a frame of reference for it when people don't know much about tcma and need the comparative description.

Chin is tucked, shoulders are up. This reduces your head as a target. It's not exclusive to any art in particular and is common among fighters of all styles.

Hands up is hands up. En garde. :) Again, keeping your hands up is not exclusive to boxing and is in fact a natural response to physical conflict.

[SPJ]

Talking about the stance that work. Onetime I sparred against a Karate guy. I stood in a low stance that my head was on his waist level. He had to punch 45 degree downward to reach me. All his favor high kicks won't work on me. Later on he said, "I hate to spar with you Kung Fu guys. Your guys fighting stance are just too low."

Anything that you do can make your opponent to feel uncomfortable, it's good strategy.

Fighting stance and foot work or stepping methods

--

They are called Quan Jia Zi or fighting/boxing frame.

Each style has its own stance and preferred footwork.

It would show.

If not all the time but most of the time.

That is why in the old time, you would yield 3 moves.

To see your opponent's boxing frame and hide your own.

etc etc

--

In a ring fight, the rule sets may favor certain stance and footwork.

Most of us would fight the "same".

but your boxing frame would reveal itself one way or another.

---

:)