"Crap" in Wing Chun?

[LaRoux]

This was posted on the main forum:




"Of course, some styles are more crap than not. Wing Chun comes to mind. :rolleyes:

Yeah sure, there are some good ideas in WC, but there is also a tone of crap. I have a friend who was pretty good at WC from a WC perspective, he could never stop me from tossing him on his back. Also when he connected it never hurt, and he was much bigger than I am. But he was like top of his class, had won forms comps, kicks ass in stickyhands etc...."

Comments? Agree? Disagree?

[k gledhill]

This was posted on the main forum:



Comments? Agree? Disagree?

Agree !! a huge majority of VT is complete cr*p.

[anerlich]

Comments?

OK.

Quoting a nameless poster from another forum who has an opinion, and not a particularly informed one, seems like a complete waste of time.

Do you have an opinion about Wing Chun yourself?

[Eric_H]

Agree !! a huge majority of VT is complete cr*p.

Actually the WC technology is pretty good, but the training methods are mostly garbage. You gotta wade through a lot of BS to get to the diamonds.

From my experience, modern MA's have more direct/superior methods, but fewer technical advantages.

[EternalSpring]

Every style/system/etc is crap unless you train it to actually use it. Maybe styles that seem to have "more crap than others" actually have higher numbers of practitioners who dont train to use it.

[Ozzy Dave]

Wing Chun is a challenge to apply though if you don't have a sufficient athletic and knowledge base as the narrow range in technique can lead to issues, especially with mobility IMO.

Dave

[wingchunIan]

the fact that the cited example had "won forms competitions" tells you everything that you need to know about the school of wing chun he attended. Bruce Lee made Wing Chun popular and the curse of popularity is a dilution of standards and use of the name as a marketing badge by those with little to no knowledge.

[Graham H]

This was posted on the main forum:



Comments? Agree? Disagree?

Agree! Most of it is pants.

[Paddington]

Actually the WC technology is pretty good, but the training methods are mostly garbage. You gotta wade through a lot of BS to get to the diamonds.

:)

I found the wading very frustrating as my Sifu was inclined towards the 'traditional' approach to training students. Getting information out of him was sometimes like drawing blood from a stone!

I do agree with others here, there is a lot of crap wing chun taught out there. As for the system being effective or ineffective, well, whilst I do agree that not all Sifus are born equal, so much is down to the individual and if they wish to put in the time.

On this theme of putting in the time, unless you work or live in areas where violence occurs frequently, the probability of facing violence in one's everyday life in the affluent 'north', is so low that one has to question studying wing chun just to be able to fight. Is it really a good investment of time?

IMO it takes a very long time to master wing chun and there are many other reasons and benefits to study it, beyond just being able to fight. If you want to just study wing chun to be able to fight for that very rare occasion where you are attacked (for most once in a lifetime if at all), then you may be wasting your time.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=anerlich;1208563]Comments?

OK.

Quoting a nameless poster from another forum who has an opinion, and not a particularly informed one, seems like a complete waste of time.

------------------------------------------------------

For sure

[LaRoux]

Comments?

OK.

Quoting a nameless poster from another forum who has an opinion, and not a particularly informed one, seems like a complete waste of time.

Do you have an opinion about Wing Chun yourself?

Apparently it wasn't a waste of time. I was curious if Wing Chun folks shared this opinion. Seems some do.

Looking as some of the other threads since posting this, it seems as if almost all Wing Chun people share this opinion. They seem to only think their version of Wing Chun is decent, while the other versions have a lot of crap.

Based on this, I'd have to conclude that his opinion wasn't so uninformed at all.

[Grumblegeezer]

Simple as 1-2-3:

1. Wing Chun taught for fighting, to fighters who spar and fight a lot will work.

2. Wing Chun taught by pompous theoreticians to new age kung fu groupies won't work.

3. Wing chun taught and practiced by regular guys who are dedicated hobbyists who don't get into a lot of fights will have mixed results.

I know a few in the first group, and too many in the second. I'm in the last group. Nothing great, but honestly just who I am.

[anerlich]

Apparently it wasn't a waste of time.

Your standards must be pretty low.

[anerlich]

Agree! Most of it is pants.

Boxers? Tightie whities?

[hulkout]

There is absolutely NO crap in the Wing Chun system. There are however a lot of crap instructors who don't know what the hell they're doing as well as a lot of crap students who also don't know what they're doing. If someone doesn't understand the correct use of a technique or they think that all the techniques in the form are supposed to be done exactly as seen in the forms, is that a problem with the art itself? One of the main things that people fail to understand about Wing Chun is that many of the drills (at least the ones learned early on) are developmental drills. They teach lines of attack, timing, balance, structure, and other attributes. They're not done exactly like that in a real situation. Of course, most guys quit before they understand that and then they get destroyed in a real fight. Is that a problem with the art or the person? If a boxer goes into the ring and tries to hit someone the same way he hits a speed bag and then gets knocked out, does that mean boxing is crap?

[Shaolindynasty]

I dont practice wing chun myself and cant really comment on the system as a whole but i can say that having sparred and fought with a variety of martial artists of differing backgrounds i have found that i feel the most pressure and have the most difficulty sparring against the ving tsun practitioners at my sifus school(ng family Chinese martial arts association) . That being the case i believe it can be an extremely effective system on the right hands and with the right training.

For what its worth

[Ali. R]

You've got guys promoting ‘Wing Chun’ as a combat/fighting art, and then keep their classes always on a certain format of softness, then brainwash their students with ‘chi sao’ and ‘drills’ and with the almighty ‘wooden dummy’ in the corner, while they’re both developing a false sense of security with patty cake ideas. While all along pimping their situation with photo’s and name dropping (business as usual), which is nothing wrong with that, but never sparing with their students because they never learned how themselves. I’m telling you the truth, been a sifu from the age of 23, and it took me 8 years to do it (I’m old school). And that was just at ‘wooden man’ level, I’m 48 now (master). And just because of my ability I’ve caught h3ll within wing chun politics.

I didn’t learn from a bunch of seminars but hands on for over 25 years and from one sifu. But I’ll like the say this before I really get started: the reason why wing chun wouldn’t look like in form is because most scary a$$ practitioners can’t keep their stance, you’re only as good as your stance, and if you break that then all other structures will follow as well as the right wing chun mentality (their timing and positioning will always be fu*ked), and that’s what usually happens if one can’t move their feet or has mobility problems like a stick in their a$$, so therefore the feet can’t follow the hands; while never developing the idea of grace under pressure. Therefore one would never developing heart from their goofy a$$ endeavors.

I think it’s a shame though, on how most guys walk in a wing chun school and don’t take their curiosity beyond name dropping (if they want to learn to fight). If the sifu is really good he shouldn’t hurt you at all, but will dominate the situation with control and positioning no matter how hard you come at him, and he should be able to blow your sh1t out with good form; and that’s without him telling you which hand to throw or what to do while showing his prowess in combat or fighting.

If you’re there just to fight him he would know the difference because he teaches and promotes it as a fighting/combat art and should deal with you on whatever bases, right? But, if he backs down from a small sparing match then you’ll know what you’re getting into. Nine times out of ten he’ll back down by saying he don’t want to hurt you, but if he’s good enough, like I said; that’s shouldn’t be a factor at all and he’ll do it with good form and everything to boot (a beautiful situation).

A good sifu will show you how and not tell you. This is why wing chun can be a bunch of crap. I’m telling you the truth, all you have to do is asks your sifu to spar with you and if he starts to look like an idiot and begin flailing his hands around with uncertainness and without good purpose and balance while looking awkward at the same time; then there you go. I’ve boxed for many years and I’ve been told by many; “you simply look beautiful” , and that’s because I’ve never lost my balance and always kept my stance, while moving my feet like a welterweight . Just look at the boxers that can’t move their feet properly and you can’t tell what the h3ll their doing, and the same goes for wing chun.

[R0NiN]

it depends on the intrusctor/lineage really, i personally believe Duncan Leung lineage is the best but thats my opinion.

[Grumblegeezer]

it depends on the intrusctor/lineage really, i personally believe Duncan Leung lineage is the best but thats my opinion.

Why do you believe this?

[Phil Redmond]

Agree !! a huge majority of VT is complete cr*p.
Then why do you teach/study it? If I felt that way I'd study another art.

[Phil Redmond]

Why do you believe this? I studied with Duncan and he's a fighter. But he told me personally that the best fighter he knew was Ah Hing.

[Robinhood]

Like anything else, the best retain quality , not quantity , and are not well known.

Unless you are lucky enough to meet that group, you don't even know they exist.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Shaolindynasty;1208736 That being the case i believe it can be an extremely effective system on the right hands and with the right training.
_____

You got that right.

[anerlich]

Like anything else, the best retain quality , not quantity , and are not well known.

Unless you are lucky enough to meet that group, you don't even know they exist.

Like ANYTHING else?

This seems to a situation unique to TCMA. Most other human endeavours, including most martial arts, grow and evolve through exposure and challenge.

Only TCMA practitioners apparently become great training in secret in their small groups that no one else knows about.

Or so you tell me, maybe I haven't been lucky enough yet.

If an unknown WC practitioner gets knocked down in a secret kwoon, does anybody hear?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that something which is often overlooked is the intent and pressure one applies while doing something.

For example consider a Chin Na or typical joint lock technique. When not applied fully it is possible to apply the technique and find it does not work. However, when applied with full force and speed the same technique which previously "failed" now works as it should or is expected.

In some of my Silat training I learned that what makes some things effective is the constant forward force when applied. When practicing a Juru if you do not have the forward intent the technique or concept will not work as well or sometimes at all.

I believe that the same thing is true with Wing Chun. Often we hear talk about constant forward pressure. However, in application this is not often the case. Without the constant forward intent, once a bridge is established, then a lot of things may not work. This can lead to frustration and lack of confidence in how things are applied and done.

Now please do not misunderstand that I mean to simply always drive forward blindly with no regard to proper structure or forced, but to apply a technique or concept half way will not work in many situations.

In my thinking, a big part of why some things fail is that those who try to apply something do not do it fully or with full intent. There is always a little bit holding back and that is where the opponent gets a slight edge which they may be able to exploit.

Of course, the more highly skilled the opponent the better your structure and technique needs to be to work. The way to develop this proper technique and structure is by slow steady practice with gradually increasing pressure. When one can apply your movements with full forward force and intent and your opponent resists fully then you will see whether something works or not.

I think one of my favorite examples would be the Bic Bo. If you step not so deeply then the move is not as effective. When you step fully, and correctly, your step and forward pressure will in and of itself help to disrupt the opponents balance and structure. The object is to learn the proper amount of pressure and angle to apply. Not too little and not so much that you lose your own structure. However, without the actual full step the result will not provide the best support for your technique. Far easier to show in person but hopefully some of this makes sense.

Please do not take this to mean that Wing Chun is too deadly for the ring or any other such, however when done with full pressure and intent, the art can provide a rather decent and reliable method of combat.

Bottom line is that if you do not execute your movements fully and with proper intent they are far less likely to work. Not a failing of the technique but perhaps of the technician.

A lot of Crap is out there and everyone believes they practice the best approach. Just as everyone is not wrong............everyone is also not right.

[Phil Redmond]

Like ANYTHING else?

This seems to a situation unique to TCMA. Most other human endeavours, including most martial arts, grow and evolve through exposure and challenge.

Only TCMA practitioners apparently become great training in secret in their small groups that no one else knows about.

Or so you tell me, maybe I haven't been lucky enough yet.

If an unknown WC practitioner gets knocked down in a secret kwoon, does anybody hear?
Like I've always said Andrew. You very eloquent for a jock. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

You've got guys promoting ‘Wing Chun’ as a combat/fighting art, and then keep their classes always on a certain format of softness, then brainwash their students with ‘chi sao’ and ‘drills’ and with the almighty ‘wooden dummy’ in the corner, while they’re both developing a false sense of security with patty cake ideas. While all along pimping their situation with photo’s and name dropping (business as usual), which is nothing wrong with that, but never sparing with their students because they never learned how themselves. I’m telling you the truth, been a sifu from the age of 23, and it took me 8 years to do it (I’m old school). And that was just at ‘wooden man’ level, I’m 48 now (master). And just because of my ability I’ve caught h3ll within wing chun politics.

I didn’t learn from a bunch of seminars but hands on for over 25 years and from one sifu. But I’ll like the say this before I really get started: the reason why wing chun wouldn’t look like in form is because most scary a$$ practitioners can’t keep their stance, you’re only as good as your stance, and if you break that then all other structures will follow as well as the right wing chun mentality (their timing and positioning will always be fu*ked), and that’s what usually happens if one can’t move their feet or has mobility problems like a stick in their a$$, so therefore the feet can’t follow the hands; while never developing the idea of grace under pressure. Therefore one would never developing heart from their goofy a$$ endeavors.

I think it’s a shame though, on how most guys walk in a wing chun school and don’t take their curiosity beyond name dropping (if they want to learn to fight). If the sifu is really good he shouldn’t hurt you at all, but will dominate the situation with control and positioning no matter how hard you come at him, and he should be able to blow your sh1t out with good form; and that’s without him telling you which hand to throw or what to do while showing his prowess in combat or fighting.

If you’re there just to fight him he would know the difference because he teaches and promotes it as a fighting/combat art and should deal with you on whatever bases, right? But, if he backs down from a small sparing match then you’ll know what you’re getting into. Nine times out of ten he’ll back down by saying he don’t want to hurt you, but if he’s good enough, like I said; that’s shouldn’t be a factor at all and he’ll do it with good form and everything to boot (a beautiful situation).

A good sifu will show you how and not tell you. This is why wing chun can be a bunch of crap. I’m telling you the truth, all you have to do is asks your sifu to spar with you and if he starts to look like an idiot and begin flailing his hands around with uncertainness and without good purpose and balance while looking awkward at the same time; then there you go. I’ve boxed for many years and I’ve been told by many; “you simply look beautiful” , and that’s because I’ve never lost my balance and always kept my stance, while moving my feet like a welterweight . Just look at the boxers that can’t move their feet properly and you can’t tell what the h3ll their doing, and the same goes for wing chun.
Amen to that.

[wingchunIan]

Amen to that.

Really Phil you agree with that???? The idea of kung fu instructors who are so awesome that they can take on all comers with ease and easily handle them without hurting them is pure fantasy. Much of wing chun like many other arts only really works when done with intent.

[Phil Redmond]

Really Phil you agree with that???? The idea of kung fu instructors who are so awesome that they can take on all comers with ease and easily handle them without hurting them is pure fantasy. Much of wing chun like many other arts only really works when done with intent.
I agree with the fact that a Sifu should be able to deal with an advanced student who is resisting to different degrees. There are so many compliant clips (including mine), where the student isn't trying to hit back. And people use these Chi Sao clips as examples of the certain Sifu's Wing Chun prowess.

[k gledhill]

Then why do you teach/study it? If I felt that way I'd study another art.

I meant the general standards of what is being commercially sold as 'Wing Chun'.

[Ali. R]

I agree with the fact that a Sifu should be able to deal with an advanced student who is resisting to different degrees. There are so many compliant clips (including mine), where the student isn't trying to hit back. And people use these Chi Sao clips as examples of the certain Sifu's Wing Chun prowess.

You’re 100% correct on that, if I’m not going to fight/spar. I’ll like to do something in real time (flow) that will display defense, balance, sensitivity, timing and body unity, because I haven’t found a student yet that can get pass my defense unless I'd let them, and they do try very hard to, but it only helps to develop my skill level even more.

I’m not saying that I’m the sh!t (I’m no better than anyone else), but my sifu mainly stressed the idea of defense from a stance point of view, he said; “everyone spends so much time on hitting that they forget to keep from being hit”. Which is very ironic sense the system is more than 80% defense.

[jesper]

its a funny notion that a sifu in TCMA needs to be so **** good fighter.
Nobody expect a boxing trainer to be able to dominate a world class boxer, but in TCMA the trainer has to.

A sifu needs to have a good grasp of the philosify and technical aspect of your style and the ability to pass on the knowledge in a way to produce the desired results.

[Ali. R]

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. A ‘Sifu’ is only as good as what he can past down from experience when it comes to combat.

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

[Robinhood]

Really Phil you agree with that???? The idea of kung fu instructors who are so awesome that they can take on all comers with ease and easily handle them without hurting them is pure fantasy. Much of wing chun like many other arts only really works when done with intent.

It usually works like this, the lower skilled the opponent , the more you have to hurt them for them to realise anything. So , most of the time , unless your a masochist , you just teach the lower level practitioners, not hurt them. Eventually they will be at a level that you don't have to hurt them for them to recognize what is effective.

[Ali. R]

Really Phil you agree with that???? The idea of kung fu instructors who are so awesome that they can take on all comers with ease and easily handle them without hurting them is pure fantasy. Much of wing chun like many other arts only really works when done with intent.

It’s not about taking on all comers but potential students, and if one is truly looking for wing chun training to fight with, he would only use the energy/force in which he feels safe with or will soon realize he has a real fight on his hands, and will put up a reasonable sparring match of respect or end up in ICU.

But if he comes there just to fight then he deserves everything he has coming for going there with a small challenge… Some of you guys have to be treated delicately when wrote to, because some will just jump into the far end of reasoning; when common sense should already be guiding you.

Any sifu who teaches “combat” should be able to control a situation of a respectful sparring match (with form) or he’s full of sh1t or respectfully and gracefully of age with proven skills. Other than that he has nothing to show you in the way of “combat”. And if he can’t bring on/pass down fast results of resolve and skill to a student then he is worthless

Here is a student of mines who at time only train for 8 mouths straight (boxing) a big 16 year old then, who never learned how to fight until he met yours truly, sparring someone 14 years older than himself and the guy he’s sparring with is a “Master” in his “combat/fighting” art of 15 years; you be the judge (http://youtu.be/e3HdnOz4WMc).

[Robinhood]

Here is a student of mines who at time only train for 8 mouths straight (boxing) a big 16 year old then, who never learned how to fight unlit he met yours truly, sparring someone 14 years older than himself and the guy he’s sparring with is a “Master” in his “combat/fighting” art of 15 years; you be the judge (http://youtu.be/e3HdnOz4WMc).


Master of what? Aikdo, Judo, Archery, obviously not boxing or any contact art!

[Ali. R]

Master of what? Aikdo, Judo, Archery, obviously not boxing or any contact art!

When I’d first met that kid he could barely walk without tripping over his feet, I’ve actually seen him walk across the gym floor and fall for no dam reason at all. Hell,,, I was convinced that he couldn’t even ride a bike (very clumsy).

He turned out to be one of my best; he’s a big welterweight that has won in light heavy by KOs.

See,,, the guy he’s sparing can’t move his feet at all and that’s how most wing chun guys are. Don’t get me wrong, he can fight within his system. But,,, just like I’d said he’s an idiot and was talked out of his element of fighting just because he was much older and outweighed the kid, he thought it would be easy.

[JPinAZ]

Master of what? Aikdo, Judo, Archery, obviously not boxing or any contact art!

lol, I'd agree. Maybe he's a master heavy bag impersonator. Or maybe someone mistook him for a master because he has it written on his back in magic marker? :rolleyes:

The kid might be 'ok', but IMO this clip doesn't really show anything because anyone would look good against this guy who can't apply pressure, can't punch and can't even defend.

[Ali. R]

lol, I'd agree. Maybe he's a master heavy bag impersonator. Or maybe someone mistook him for a master because he has it written on his back in magic marker? :rolleyes:.

Master Alan (http://www.gokempo.com/people/instructors/): He’s the second one from the top.


The kid might be 'ok', but IMO this clip doesn't really show anything because anyone would look good against this guy who can't apply pressure, can't punch and can't even defend.

I knew he wouldn’t get a fair shot from you guys because I’d trained him, boy you don’t have a clue; he's 22 now. The kid: made him look bad that’s all. And if none of you guys can’t t see the skill in what he’s doing, then that’s a dam shame.

I told him to use a lot of movement off the jab (elementary) and keep him missing, because I knew it would fu*k with him psychologically and while keeping him off balanced at the same time, all skill.

you be the judge (http://youtu.be/e3HdnOz4WMc).

[Robinhood]

Master Alan (http://www.gokempo.com/people/instructors/): He’s the second one from the top.

="http://youtu.be/e3HdnOz4WMc"]you be the judge[/URL].


Those places are McDojos for kids, all hype no essence, good places for parents to drop off their kids.

[Ali. R]

They’d actually won a national fighting tournament, but the kid made it seemed that way really easily, that’s mostly my fought.

[jesper]

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. A ‘Sifu’ is only as good as what he can past down from experience when it comes to combat.

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

So being a good fighter automaticly makes you a good teacher ?

And im not saying having a former world champ as your coach isnt a good thing. Im saying that nobody in boxing expects the trainer to be able to beat his student. If he could he would be the one standing in the ring making millions of dollars not his student. I dont care if its a former world champion at some point your just not good enough fighter anymore to beat the up and coming.
But somehow in TCMA you got to be the **** all your life. Your expected to just swat away all challengers and totally dominate everyone. Its inherently stupid, and also a trait of people who really doesnt do all that much fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. A ‘Sifu’ is only as good as what he can past down from experience when it comes to combat.

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

That really isn't the case dude.
Dundee, Steward, D'Amato, Rooney, none of them were pro champions and while Steward had an amazing Amateur record, he had to give up pro fighting because of family.
Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.
Roach would probably be the best choice for trainer and potential champ ( he never won but fought for the championship twice I think).
Rooney also had a great pro career.
Dundee never fought for example.
Neither did D'amato.
There's also Teddy Atlas.

[wingchunIan]

So being a good fighter automaticly makes you a good teacher ?

And im not saying having a former world champ as your coach isnt a good thing. Im saying that nobody in boxing expects the trainer to be able to beat his student. If he could he would be the one standing in the ring making millions of dollars not his student. I dont care if its a former world champion at some point your just not good enough fighter anymore to beat the up and coming.
But somehow in TCMA you got to be the **** all your life. Your expected to just swat away all challengers and totally dominate everyone. Its inherently stupid, and also a trait of people who really doesnt do all that much fighting.

totally agree. Cus D'amato, Teddy Atlas, Eddie Futch, Angelo Dundee, Emanuel Steward were all fantastic trainers and produced many of the notable fighters (in boxing terms) of the post war era yet they don't have a decent proffessional fight record between them. The notion that a good fighter makes a good trainer is inherently flawed, training is a skill in itself. Many successful fighters fight on instinct, they win without knowing why or how and can therefore never hope to teach the secret of their success. Those that do have a more formulaic approach that can be replicated don't necessarily have the communication skills or the patience to pass on their ability and fewer still have the underlying understanding that would allow them to modify what works so well for them in order for it to work well for individuals with different physical characteristics. There are of course trainers with fight experience that can use their personal experience to reinforce what they teach (I'm fortunate that my own sifu is a case in point), but that experience can equally be garnered from training partners, students, first hand observation and a whole raft of other ways.

[Ali. R]

That really isn't the case dude.
Dundee, Steward, D'Amato, Rooney, none of them were pro champions and while Steward had an amazing Amateur record, he had to give up pro fighting because of family. Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.

I’m going to name a couple that I know and trained with personally and there’s many more as well, it’s a dam shame why these people are not recognized when they both have undefeated champions/fighters unlike the ones you’d mentioned; HUMMMMMM, I wonder why.

All of your dialogue is based off this sentence I’ve made:

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. Did you notice the very first word I’d used (most); there are some very odd people here on this forum, as far as reasoning/common sense goes, unless something is driving them to act that way for no reason at all.


I only see two differences from the other names you’ve mentioned, genetic makeup and the fact that they were both champions.

Coach Lisa "Too Fierce" Cohen (http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/profile01/115/a09328bd34d74064a7301a3f6ad1994f/p.jpg)
WIBA World Champion Boxing Coach Fitness Coach

Roger Mayweather (http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Floyd-Mayweather.jpg)
He was the WBC super featherweight champion, IBO light welterweight champion, IBO welterweight champion and the IBA welterweight Champion.

[Wayfaring]

You got to train with Roger Mayweather? Any stories?

[Vajramusti]

That really isn't the case dude.
Dundee, Steward, D'Amato, Rooney, none of them were pro champions and while Steward had an amazing Amateur record, he had to give up pro fighting because of family.
Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.
Roach would probably be the best choice for trainer and potential champ ( he never won but fought for the championship twice I think).
Rooney also had a great pro career.
Dundee never fought for example.
Neither did D'amato.
There's also Teddy Atlas.
----------------------------------------------
Correct. Roach often led with his face in his own fighting days/ My neighbor and friend Louis Burke beat him twice. There is that awful video of Roach's head bobbing around taking hit after hit in one of his last fights- contributing to his disability.Probably a good person. But his training skills came from his apprenticeship with Eddie Futch who was a great trainer and a great amateur who developed a hurt murmur preventing progress in his own fighting career.

Roach's great achievement was in developing south paw Pacquiao's right hook. His teaching of defense is a little questionable given Amir Khan's problems and Pacquiao's total knockout by Marquez.

[Ali. R]

You got to train with Roger Mayweather? Any stories?

He’d actually helped me get ready for my first professional fight at 8 Street Boxing Gym on 8-mile in Detroit while he was still a champion, and he introduced me to this guy (Bernard “Superbad” Mays (http://pictures.historicimages.net/pictures/_4/3957/3956400.jpg)) before I became one of his sparring partners for three years straight; who actually beat ‘Michael Spinks’ for his title.

I love Roger like a bother he really watched over me in my earlier days (in boxing). He has a heart of gold and that’s for real. And plus he was in love with my mother’s sister.

[Ali. R]

If anyone thinks that they’re going to get in a boxing ring and beat their championship trainer in a sparring match as a “student” of the game; is out of their mind. And that proves that they know nothing of the fighting game.

[Wayfaring]

He’d actually helped me get ready for my first professional fight at 8 Street Boxing Gym on 8-mile in Detroit while he was still a champion, and he introduced me to this guy (Bernard “Superbad” Mays (http://pictures.historicimages.net/pictures/_4/3957/3956400.jpg)) before I became one of his sparring partners for three years straight; who actually beat ‘Michael Spinks’ for his title.

I love Roger like a bother he really watched over me in my earlier days (in boxing). He has a heart of gold and that’s for real. And plus he was in love with my mother’s sister.

Great stuff. Roger is really at the top of the food chain trainer wise with what he has done helping Floyd develop arguably the best boxing skills on the planet alltime.

[Wayfaring]

If anyone thinks that they’re going to get in a boxing ring and beat their championship trainer in a sparring match as a “student” of the game; is out of their mind. And that proves that they know nothing of the fighting game.

Not at all. I work with an 8-3-1 light heavyweight pro and ANY of his pros regardless of weight class are a lot to handle even trying to hang in and survive. They are just pretty sharply honed - top conditioning, great timing and reflexes, great fundamentals. I just try to keep my place and make sure all the jump ropes are hung up neatly in a row ;)

And I can take any of them down. :D

[Ali. R]

Great stuff. Roger is really at the top of the food chain trainer wise with what he has done helping Floyd develop arguably the best boxing skills on the planet alltime.

Man, I thank you very much for your post, you’ve said something that no one else have ever said before about ‘Roger’, and he’s really a good person and should get more recognition and respect. Oh, the world we live in.

Thanks,

[Wayfaring]

Man, I thank you very much for your post, you’ve said something that no one else have ever said before about ‘Roger’, and he’s really a good person and should get more recognition and respect. Oh, the world we live in.

Thanks,

Just the truth. Freddie Roach gets all the hype but Roger is light years beyond him in reality IMO.

[k gledhill]

Any good roger m'wthr clips ?

[Ali. R]

The Mexican Assassin (http://youtu.be/Ws3eLhZK2LY)

For some reason people will never put up his victories by KOs only mostly his later years loses, but the last three rounds shows his skills very clearly. this is a very good fight.

[Yoshiyahu]

The Kung fu guy may be good at his art...but not good at sparring...theres a difference...

basically his hands were down...He kept dropping his right which is why he kept eating punches...the one time he did intercept a jab its because he had his hands up....He had his hand down most of the time saying Give a me some knuckles to eat...

He also lacked any bridging or body movement. In most fighting styles you move the body out the way of hit or you utilize the arms to cut off the attack...But he basically was not good at doing either. Basically He hung in there for a while..But had his face to exposed...

The other kid seems like an Okay boxer...I like his movement and how slips the jab. Also I like how he adapts right away if he makes a mistake!



It’s not about taking on all comers but potential students, and if one is truly looking for wing chun training to fight with, he would only use the energy/force in which he feels safe with or will soon realize he has a real fight on his hands, and will put up a reasonable sparring match of respect or end up in ICU.

But if he comes there just to fight then he deserves everything he has coming for going there with a small challenge… Some of you guys have to be treated delicately when wrote to, because some will just jump into the far end of reasoning; when common sense should already be guiding you.

Any sifu who teaches “combat” should be able to control a situation of a respectful sparring match (with form) or he’s full of sh1t or respectfully and gracefully of age with proven skills. Other than that he has nothing to show you in the way of “combat”. And if he can’t bring on/pass down fast results of resolve and skill to a student then he is worthless

Here is a student of mines who at time only train for 8 mouths straight (boxing) a big 16 year old then, who never learned how to fight until he met yours truly, sparring someone 14 years older than himself and the guy he’s sparring with is a “Master” in his “combat/fighting” art of 15 years; you be the judge (http://youtu.be/e3HdnOz4WMc).

[Vajramusti]

The Mexican Assassin (http://youtu.be/Ws3eLhZK2LY)

For some reason people will never put up his victories by KOs only mostly his later years loses, but the last three rounds shows his skills very clearly. this is a very good fight.
--------------------------------------------------------
Roger Mayweather was a good boxer and is a great trainer.Hid power punches particularly his right uppercut against Paz were powerful.

[Ali. R]

--------------------------------------------------------
Roger Mayweather was a good boxer and is a great trainer.Hid power punches particularly his right uppercut against Paz were powerful.

You got that right, and he was really good for that. I’d remember when I first met him; my father was like, “put the gloves on and show my boy a little something”. I was about 16 years old then and a big fan; I just couldn’t believe he was standing in my parent’s living room.

He laid the top of his forehead on my chest, and when I went to push him back then out of nowhere he hit me with that dam uppercut, made the back of my head dam near bounce off my shoulder blades, I remember hearing my mother scream after that shot, it must of looked real bad.

And by me being much bigger than him, I’d went for the clinch and he did it again, I’d seen stars that time. It was like he did chi sao on me or something. My father was very proud that I took a good shot from a champion and took it like a man.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I’m going to name a couple that I know and trained with personally and there’s many more as well, it’s a dam shame why these people are not recognized when they both have undefeated champions/fighters unlike the ones you’d mentioned; HUMMMMMM, I wonder why.

All of your dialogue is based off this sentence I’ve made:

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. Did you notice the very first word I’d used (most); there are some very odd people here on this forum, as far as reasoning/common sense goes, unless something is driving them to act that way for no reason at all.


I only see two differences from the other names you’ve mentioned, genetic makeup and the fact that they were both champions.

Coach Lisa "Too Fierce" Cohen (http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/profile01/115/a09328bd34d74064a7301a3f6ad1994f/p.jpg)
WIBA World Champion Boxing Coach Fitness Coach

Roger Mayweather (http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Floyd-Mayweather.jpg)
He was the WBC super featherweight champion, IBO light welterweight champion, IBO welterweight champion and the IBA welterweight Champion.

Yeah, you said MOST and that is just not correct.
Some great coaches were champs, some fought at the elite levels and some were journey men and some never fought in the pro ranks.
All that means is that to be a great coach you must KNOW the game.
HOW you know the game is NOT set in stone.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/list/201210/best-boxing-trainers-all-time#7

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1397015-power-ranking-the-5-best-trainers-in-boxing-today

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/578768-freddie-roach-and-the-10-best-trainers-in-boxing-history-my-take

And so forth.

[Ali. R]

What if I pull up a newspaper clipping that says the sky is orange or ketchup is really mustard? Go with what you see and know but not with what you read a 100% time, because it makes one come off like a ‘Fox News’ reporter (low information gatherers).

Remember you said that “there are no champion trainers”; and when I said most, I’m talking about the ones that I care about or grew up with. When you speak on it; it’s just words with no substance or newspaper clips, it’s all hype and nothing more than to sell tickets for investors that thought “Pac Man” is/was the second coming. And when I speak on it, it’s all from experience.

And you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but no one will say that; ‘Floyd Mayweather Jr. is not the best fighter out there and with the best skills to boot. In which he got from his father ‘Floyd Mayweather’ (another one I’ve just mention) and his uncle ‘Roger Mayweather’, both of them were great fighters and champions as well.

Please try not to quote me because our conversation isn’t going anywhere but in circles.

Or maybe this post can help you understand what I’m saying and with a prospective that I’ve haven’t thought of.


----------------------------------------------
Correct. Roach often led with his face in his own fighting days/ My neighbor and friend Louis Burke beat him twice. There is that awful video of Roach's head bobbing around taking hit after hit in one of his last fights- contributing to his disability. Probably a good person. But his training skills came from his apprenticeship with Eddie Futch who was a great trainer and a great amateur who developed a hurt murmur preventing progress in his own fighting career.

Roach's great achievement was in developing south paw Pacquiao's right hook. His teaching of defense is a little questionable given Amir Khan's problems and Pacquiao's total knockout by Marquez.

Take care,

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fist of all, I did NOT say there were NO champion trainers.
I said:

That really isn't the case dude.
Dundee, Steward, D'Amato, Rooney, none of them were pro champions and while Steward had an amazing Amateur record, he had to give up pro fighting because of family.
Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.
Roach would probably be the best choice for trainer and potential champ ( he never won but fought for the championship twice I think).
Rooney also had a great pro career.
Dundee never fought for example.
Neither did D'amato.
There's also Teddy Atlas.

There are trainers that were champions, there are trainers that never were and there are trainers that never even fought in the pro ranks.
That is a fact, period.
Get off your high horse dude.
I trained at Sully's gyn in Toronto, I was a ranked Amateur and fought semi-pro.
None of that matters, just as YOUR experience doesn't matters to the FACT that some great boxing trainers NEVER were champions or even fought pro.

[Frost]

Fist of all, I did NOT say there were NO champion trainers.
I said:


There are trainers that were champions, there are trainers that never were and there are trainers that never even fought in the pro ranks.
That is a fact, period.
Get off your high horse dude.
I trained at Sully's gyn in Toronto, I was a ranked Amateur and fought semi-pro.
None of that matters, just as YOUR experience doesn't matters to the FACT that some great boxing trainers NEVER were champions or even fought pro.

do you remember the thread a while back about Ali running a golden gloves place and has a young kid who can beat grown men etc, his boxing credentials are shall we say suspect

As for the best boxing coaches being ex fighters thats is obviously not true, in combat sports its your record as a coach not as a fighter which is important...in traditional TCMA where you might not be producing fighters with a record potential students can check then the teachers fighting ability might be part of the equation

[Ali. R]

do you remember the thread a while back about Ali running a golden gloves place and has a young kid who can beat grown men etc, his boxing credentials are shall we say suspect

I find it very funny that those news clips are not in question and everyone else skills or background, but mines. Even when I’m the only one putting up clips proving what I do (politics). I was always told by my family the more you know over others could really hurt your standing with them, when you’re not of the same creed.

You can say whatever you want to say but I have nothing to prove, this subject in not about me. It’s about champion trainers in the business, now I have to prove my standing (politics) in order to make a post stand with merit. What’s next, my birth certificate?

[Ali. R]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but I did for this reason.



Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.

Could you please show us all, where I said that they (trainers) must be champions? I’ll be waiting.

I’d find it odd that you would take my post out of content, and then get upset when I did yours out of confusion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but I did for this reason.



Could you please show us all, where I said that they (trainers) must be champions? I’ll be waiting.

You said:

Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. A ‘Sifu’ is only as good as what he can past down from experience when it comes to combat.

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

And that is what I said that you said, right here:

Yeah, you said MOST and that is just not correct.
Some great coaches were champs, some fought at the elite levels and some were journey men and some never fought in the pro ranks.
All that means is that to be a great coach you must KNOW the game.
HOW you know the game is NOT set in stone.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ali,
By what you posted and how you posted, you were stating that MOST champion trainers were champions themselves and I showed that to not be correct.
You stated that:

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.
Implying that unless a trainer had a winning record or was a champion that it would be best to get trained by a trainer that WAS a past champion.
Yes, Two of the best ( Dundee and D'Amato) weren't even pro fighters.

My point is simply this:
A trainer MUST have experience fighting BUT whether or not he was a champion or even a fighter with a pro record is NOT as relevant as his ability to train good fighters.

[Ali. R]

It’s evident on the way you took my words out of content on how you really feel about me, because you never apologized for doing so like I did, which lead me to believe that you were serious about your statement, in which confused me in thinking that you meant that there are no champion trainers.

I’m only talking about this statement, could you please refer to this one only and then we’ll get to the next. Let’s play this game in order.


Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions? No.

In which was posted after I made this post, I’m doing it all in order while you’re skipping subject points,


Most (who and what I know of) good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends.

[Ali. R]

Implying that unless a trainer had a winning record or was a champion that it would be best to get trained by a trainer that WAS a past champion.
Yes, Two of the best ( Dundee and D'Amato) weren't even pro fighters.
.

I wasn’t implying anything, if anyone here had the choice with five different trainers all standing in one room, one would go with the most experienced one, that’s all I’m saying, and why not?

[JPinAZ]

do you remember the thread a while back about Ali running a golden gloves place and has a young kid who can beat grown men etc, his boxing credentials are shall we say suspect

I do remember him bragging about how great of a coach he was, how the philipino prodigy was going to be unbeatable, can take grown men, etc.
I also remember when he was prepping for his first fight and was going to totally wreck his opponent. But after the weekend said fight was to take place, whenever someone asked how the kid did, he never replied and ignored the question (and still does for that matter).

And now he has a new kid (who may have some base skills, like the last), but we only see clips of him sparring some sandbag of a 'master' that can't even move or throw a punch yet somehow it is supposed to validate what?

Not saying the kids are good/bad and I think it's great they have some direction and outlet. I just find it interesting how, for all of this guy's talk, bragging, and self-stroking, where are the results? How are these fighters doing and what happened to the first prodigy? No answers.

It would be totally different if he said less and his clips said more, but that's clearly never been the case ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wasn’t implying anything, if anyone here had the choice with five different trainers all standing in one room, one would go with the most experienced one, that’s all I’m saying, and why not?

You didn't say ANYTHING about experience, you stated:

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.
That is a statement about fighting ability and fighting record, not experience.
BUT, lets go with what you said:

if anyone here had the choice with five different trainers all standing in one room, one would go with the most experienced one, that’s all I’m saying, and why not?
Experiences in WHAT?
If I had to choose between a trainer that never fought pro and trained the likes of Ali and Ray Leonard and one that used to be a world champ and had a great fight record, I'd choose the be trained by the trainer of champions, why?
Being a great fighter does NOT equal being a great trainer/coach.
So I would go with the person with the most experience TRAINING Champions.
That is the point.
Sure if you could get BOTH, go with BOTH, BUT if I have to pick one, it would be experience coaching champions over ever being a champion.

[Ali. R]

I do remember him bragging about how great of a coach he was, how the philipino prodigy was going to be unbeatable, can take grown men, etc.
I also remember when he was prepping for his first fight and was going to totally wreck his opponent. But after the weekend said fight was to take place, whenever someone asked how the kid did, he never replied and ignored the question (and still does for that matter).

And now he has a new kid (who may have some base skills, like the last), but we only see clips of him sparring some sandbag of a 'master' that can't even move or throw a punch yet somehow it is supposed to validate what?

Not saying the kids are good/bad and I think it's great they have some direction and outlet. I just find it interesting how, for all of this guy's talk, bragging, and self-stroking, where are the results? How are these fighters doing and what happened to the first prodigy? No answers.

It would be totally different if he said less and his clips said more, but that's clearly never been the case ;)

I’ve never replied because you and others hated him for no reason at all, and he was just a kid then that done nothing to anyone, but were under attack just because he knew me which made his skills nonexistent. You guys didn’t show interest at all but only to hurt him. And for one who was that young didn’t need that kind of abuse, but encouragement. He is still fighting/training as we speak; like you really care.

People like you always asks for my credentials when clips of my skills level is evident, causing them to attack/question my character in the process, why?

While at the same time obviously praising less talented practitioners based off what you seen from a clip and with no background checks what so-ever, why?

It seems, if I can prove something one way, I would have to prove it another and another way as well, it will never stop as long as you feel the way you do about me. Why even go there with this nonsense, what are you trying to prove, and why?

[Ali. R]

You didn't say ANYTHING about experience.

I have nothing to say to you until we start here, are you afraid to stay in order?

It’s evident on the way you took my words out of content on how you really feel about me, because you never apologized for doing so like I did, which lead me to believe that you were serious about your statement, in which confused me in thinking that you meant that there are no champion trainers.

I’m only talking about this statement, could you please refer to this one only and then we’ll get to the next. Let’s play this game in order.


Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions? No.

In which was posted after I made this post, I’m doing it all in order while you’re skipping subject points


Most (who and what I know of) good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends.

I'd never said must be a champion. let's start there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not a game.
It was clear what you said and what you were implying, that somehow being a champion makes one a great trainer and that you would choose to learn from a guy that was a champion rather than one that wasn't.
I simply showed how that premiss is not as correct or "common sense" as you implied.
That's all.

[Ali. R]

It's not a game.
It was clear what you said and what you were implying, that somehow being a champion makes one a great trainer and that you would chose to learn from a guy that was a champion rather than one that wasn't.
I simply showed how that premiss is not as correct or "common sense" as you implied.
That's all.

Hummm, you are scared to stay in order but only choose to confuse things. For the record that is not what I’d meant, too bad you refuse to take that as reason.

Put only running from the beginning subject points that everyone can clearly see that it’s something you chose not to deal with only to save face. It truly shows what kind of person you really are.

I’m not for sure but maybe you are a good person, so why is it so hard to be honest?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't try to make this personal Ali.
You made a statement, voiced and opinion and I countered with my own stating why I disagree.
Just that, nothing more.
We can agree to disagree and the world won't end.

[Ali. R]

Don't try to make this personal Ali.
You made a statement, voiced and opinion and I countered with my own stating why I disagree.
Just that, nothing more.
We can agree to disagree and the world won't end.

For some reason you will not address the beginning subject points.

No problem, if you don’t want to stay on subject in real time and in the way it was presented in order so everything can be shown to you like everyone else sees it, then so be it.

Take care,

[Yoshiyahu]

You got two choices You can pick a guy to train you who fighting record is well known...

Or you can pick someone who trained the majority of golden glove fighters who held titles!

Who would you rather train you:

Mike Tyson or Mike Tyson Trainers?

[JPinAZ]

I’ve never replied because you and others hated him for no reason at all, and he was just a kid then that done nothing to anyone, but were under attack just because he knew me which made his skills nonexistent. You guys didn’t show interest at all but only to hurt him. And for one who was that young didn’t need that kind of abuse, but encouragement. He is still fighting/training as we speak; like you really care.


I took you off Ignore to see your reply. What a waste.

No one ever has or had any issue with the kid and you know it. You're the only one making it about him just to avoid answering the questions. That's really sad bro, I would have expected better that to hide behind an innocent teenager - even from you.

Back to ignore where your BS belongs

[Ali. R]

I took you off Ignore to see your reply. What a waste.

No one ever has or had any issue with the kid and you know it. You're the only one making it about him just to avoid answering the questions. That's really sad bro, I would have expected better that to hide behind an innocent teenager - even from you.

Back to ignore where your BS belongs

You took me off ignore because it’s the women in you that forced you to and nothing more. you guys showed no interest but contempt, just as you’ve always done to everything I’ve ever put up. You never give a positive rebuttal on anything I've ever said or showed.

Most of the time when I put up a video it's my character that is in question and not the clips.

[k gledhill]

JPinaridzona, technically, Ali just called you a biatch :D

[Paddington]

You took me off ignore because it’s the women in you [...]

Seriously? I thought in the 21st century we had moved beyond this kinda thing. I like your vids and input Ali. I've, personally, learnt a lot from them but, well, you shut down others as much as they shut you down on these forums when in discussion. As I said, these forums are far too 'male'.

[k gledhill]

Paddingtons right, Ali gets a timeout...and focus !

[Paddington]

LOL, well, Kev I guess that is one possible response.

EDIT: Maybe I should break out the flying unicorns that s*** rainbows.

[wingchunIan]

Paddingtons right, Ali gets a timeout...and focus !

nice pic Kev, see different lineages can agree :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Paddingtons right, Ali gets a timeout...and focus !

Best post of the whole thread !