The shape of combat

[JamesC]

EarthDragon's thread got me wondering about what the common TCMA(and others) view on the way combat should look.

I know there are some that believe you can fight the same way you perform a form or they way they see it in a movie. In my experience, this isn't the case. There seems to be this belief that if you spend a lot of time practicing you can "rewire" your body's natural responses and be able to perform like a wushu champion.

I read in one of the posts in ED's thread that when he said "mimicking" he meant the characteristics of Mantis, such as footwork and quick strikes, etc.

What your thoughts on how a traditional style of martial arts is supposed to look when fighting?

For me, everything starts with basic boxing. You learn basic punching skills and basic defenses. Then you add in legs. After a person has a firm grasp of these things you start adding in different footwork and principles of the style(such as angles of attack, multiple strikes, etc) because all of these things are much easier to add in after basic kickboxing skills are learned.

This is one of the reasons I never understood why Kenpo gets so much crap for their training methods. They do countless techniques in order to teach principles of the system in much the same way as CMA do forms to learn the same thing.

[MightyB]

What your thoughts on how a traditional style of martial arts is supposed to look when fighting?


To me this is the shape of combat

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1109/women-sumo/images/51515645_10.jpg

[Bernard]

What I find missing and not often taught in TMCA is strategy, which to me is why most TMCA practitioners don't seemed to have the flavor for their chosen system.

[MightyB]

It's all Jeet Kune Do in the end.

You move how your body moves. Some people have flair, some are more nuts and bolts. Where you'll get into all kinds of trouble with TCMA or any MA for that matter is when you spend all your time trying to conform YOU to the style and don't spend enough time conforming the style to You!

[YouKnowWho]

What I find missing and not often taught in TMCA is strategy,

I have just started a "TCMA strategies" thread. Please share your experience in that thread.

[SPJ]

We may look at the same thing the other way around.

What you would not do in your style and why?

If you are boxer, you would not let your guard down etc.

If you are mantis player, you would not do this and that.

If you are ---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no0CjtrT5A8&feature=player_embedded

Never this and that.

Never on Sunday etc etc.

:)

[JamesC]

It's all Jeet Kune Do in the end.

You move how your body moves. Some people have flair, some are more nuts and bolts. Where you'll get into all kinds of trouble with TCMA or any MA for that matter is when you spend all your time trying to conform YOU to the style and don't spend enough time conforming the style to You!

I agree with this

[YouKnowWho]

You move how your body moves.
You are the master. Your style is your slave. I like to coordinate my back leg with my leading arm, and my leading leg with my back arm. My style never told me to do that.

[-N-]

You are the master. Your style is your slave. I like to coordinate my back leg with my leading arm, and my leading leg with my back arm. My style never told me to do that.

Your style doesn't have step, grab, drive into linear bow stance, punch with lead hand???

[-N-]

It's all Jeet Kune Do in the end.

You move how your body moves. Some people have flair, some are more nuts and bolts. Where you'll get into all kinds of trouble with TCMA or any MA for that matter is when you spend all your time trying to conform YOU to the style and don't spend enough time conforming the style to You!

You can say that when you are no longer a beginner.

Most people are not at that point yet and still need to focus on learning their system.

Very easy to overestimate one's actual competency. Then you get people that slap fight and complain that kung fu doesn't work and that their teacher held back from them.

Then they go around "cross training" when they haven't even trained their own system properly.

[YouKnowWho]

Your style doesn't have step, grab, drive into linear bow stance, punch with lead hand???
The

- XingYi system coordinates leading arm punch with the leading leg landing.
- longfist system coordinate leading arm punch with the back leg springing.

Since I have cross trained both systems, which guideline should I follow? Which leg should I coordinate with my non-striking hand? Since my style doesn't know what I intend to do, my styles can't define that for me. I have to define that for myself.

[-N-]

For me, everything starts with basic boxing. You learn basic punching skills and basic defenses. Then you add in legs.

Legs and core first, then the rest.



This is one of the reasons I never understood why Kenpo gets so much crap for their training methods. They do countless techniques in order to teach principles of the system in much the same way as CMA do forms to learn the same thing.

I was a brown belt in Kenpo before going to Mantis.

Kenpo had a lot of combination hand techniques that were very superficial in concept and integration compared to Mantis.

Also Kenpo had very rudimentary coordination between legs, waist, torso, and striking.

Footwork was slow, crude, and not very developed or finesseful.

A lot of isolated arm power instead of whole body power compared to Mantis.

That said, my teacher preferred to retrain a Kenpo person over another Karate person.

[-N-]

The

- XingYi system coordinates leading arm punch with the leading leg landing.
- longfist system coordinate leading arm punch with the back leg springing.

Since I have cross trained both systems, which guideline should I follow? Which leg should I coordinate with my non-striking hand? Since my style doesn't know what I intend to do, my styles can't define that for me. I have to define that for myself.

You are at a level where you integrate and should just use the one that is convenient and fits the situation.

But you have the benefit of training both approaches to their limits within their systems.

So that is different than someone who just comes up and does whatever without having that background.

You came down from the mountain. The others may not even know what is mountain.

[-N-]

That said, my teacher preferred to retrain a Kenpo person over another Karate person.

...which still involved a lot of yelling on his part.

[YouKnowWho]

You came down from the mountain.

The day when I received my medicare card, the day that I realized the bottom of the montain is not too far away from me. :(

[-N-]

The day when I received my medicare card, the day that I realized the bottom of the montain is not too far away from me. :(

Haha.

Sometimes when a student finally gets some simple thing correct, I laugh at them and say, "oh, buddha came down from the mountain now?"

[JamesC]

Legs and core first, then the rest.




I was a brown belt in Kenpo before going to Mantis.

Kenpo had a lot of combination hand techniques that were very superficial in concept and integration compared to Mantis.

Also Kenpo had very rudimentary coordination between legs, waist, torso, and striking.

Footwork was slow, crude, and not very developed or finesseful.

A lot of isolated arm power instead of whole body power compared to Mantis.

That said, my teacher preferred to retrain a Kenpo person over another Karate person.

Legs and core? What do you mean?

Also, I was referring to the complaint from martial artists that kenpo practitioners don't fight how they train. Which I find quite hypocritical for a lot o traditional guys.

[-N-]

Legs and core? What do you mean?

You were saying start with punches and defense, then add legs and footwork.

I think that is part of Kenpo's problem.

They do a lot of involved handwork, like what some people call the "10 hit combos".

They don't have a platform to deliver from or good mobility, and they don't make good use of waist power.

So when I said legs and core first, I meant that this would help Kenpo be more effective.

[JamesC]

I include footwork in basic boxing. When I say legs I mean kicks.

I agree with you that there does seem to be this odd disconnect with most kenpo though. I think you're spot on with your analysis.

I came from a muay Thai and shorin ryu background so it hasn't been a problem for me. I've been really tryin to incorporate the MT footwork with newer people because, as you said, the delivery platform is one of the biggest faults. At least IMO

[JamesC]

As for the waist power, again, I agree with you.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like they're glossin over the basic components that make an effective style. This isn't the case in every school, of course, but it does seem to run rampant in kenpo especially. So you see these guys doing these techs, but they are all hands and arms with no power. Again, I benefit from past experience. Waist power is especially important in okinawan karate do.

Perhaps there is this tendency to shy away from traditional methods in an attempt to adopt more modern forms such as boxing without proper training?

[-N-]

As for the waist power, again, I agree with you.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like they're glossin over the basic components that make an effective style.

Somehow they evolved this focus on individual techiques/combos outside the complete fighting context.

People relied on innate speed and power that didn't derive from traditional body mechanics.

It kind of worked, but was a low level of skill. The details of proper body mechanics take a lot of work to really be able to use, understand, and teach.

It's kind of like an entropy that creeps into the propagation of the system.

The focus on techniques and variations is kind of a quantity over quality choice. Ran across some references talking about that aspect of Kenpo founders philosophy. Though they did not see it as quantity at the expense of quality.

But that is a common problem, especially in modern America. The "more is better" thing.

[-N-]

But that is a common problem, especially in modern America. The "more is better" thing.

Look at the whole set collector / forms junkie thing. People "know" all these forms. But do they really know and understand on a physical level where they actually can use them in a fighting context? And not just in a brute force way, but with real skill?

[Frost]

As for the waist power, again, I agree with you.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like they're glossin over the basic components that make an effective style. This isn't the case in every school, of course, but it does seem to run rampant in kenpo especially. So you see these guys doing these techs, but they are all hands and arms with no power. Again, I benefit from past experience. Waist power is especially important in okinawan karate do.

Perhaps there is this tendency to shy away from traditional methods in an attempt to adopt more modern forms such as boxing without proper training?

american kempo has no real history of fighting in full contact events, if all you do is soft slap sparring, forms and compliant drills you can get away with not generating power properly (see also wing chun for this problem) that’s the sad truth of it

this whole looking like your style or fighting like your style argument is a bit misguided in my eyes, your art gives you principles and guidelines that worked for the art founder, it also show you their favourite techniques and methods of power generation but then its up to you to make it work and fit with your own unique build and experiences,
Forms are a new invention before that people worked on basic techniques, strength and power generation methods, then they fought tested their theories and went back to the drawing board. Look at CLC of bakmei fame (considered the best fighter of his generation in southern china) by his 20’s he had trained with 3 different masters and then went to learn with his final teacher, he developed his own style based around what he had learned and what he had experienced, and he kept on making changes to his art his whole life (go look at mainland bak mei and compare it to hong kong bak mei, stances are different, they do different forms but the power generation and key techs are largely the same. When CLC beat a known master or teacher and that person became his student (and this happened a lot) he didn’t tell that guy to stop teaching he simply allowed them to incorporate bakmeimethods into his existing style of fighting if they wanted to.

WFH of hung gar had no trouble changing the art he did to fit the times and his experiences, in came longer wider sweeping strikes, longer stances, iron wire and so on, if the son of the arts keeper doesn’t see a problem with changing his art and making it fit him and his times rather than doggedly trying to look like his elders did, maybe we should be the same way

[Kellen Bassette]

WFH of hung gar had no trouble changing the art he did to fit the times and his experiences, in came longer wider sweeping strikes, longer stances, iron wire and so on, if the son of the arts keeper doesn’t see a problem with changing his art and making it fit him and his times rather than doggedly trying to look like his elders did, maybe we should be the same way

This is how KF developed for centuries. Think of a Ford. They don't look the same as 100 years ago. They were adapted, modified and evolved with new technology and the times. But the Fords today are still automobiles, the same as model Ts were.

People put their art in a showroom and preserve it as an antique. They need to get out and drive it. Nothing wrong with a few upgrades to be more efficient.

As usual, it's people claiming to be traditional, without any real understanding of tradition.

[David Jamieson]

Brawling or dueling?

The shape of a style is more apparent with dueling than it is with full out brawling.

[Frost]

This is how KF developed for centuries. Think of a Ford. They don't look the same as 100 years ago. They were adapted, modified and evolved with new technology and the times. But the Fords today are still automobiles, the same as model Ts were.

People put their art in a showroom and preserve it as an antique. They need to get out and drive it. Nothing wrong with a few upgrades to be more efficient.

As usual, it's people claiming to be traditional, without any real understanding of tradition.

And its normally either westerners or intellectual easterners who try to preserve, the Chinese who actually had to use this stuff dont normally care what it looks like or if they are mimicking their teacher, they were too busy trying to survive and win the next fight, they were they only cared about if it worked. Having said that if you aren’t using some techniques from your style and using its power generation methods and strategies, then maybe it is time to find a better style lol

[Frost]

Brawling or dueling?

The shape of a style is more apparent with dueling than it is with full out brawling.

we are on about fighting

[sanjuro_ronin]

Combat looks like how you train for it.
If you train full contact and are used to the stimuli of actual combat, you will maintain whatever "shape" you consistently train at.
If you do NOT train that way, your "shape" will be compromised and "fall apart" when under pressure.
It really is just that simple.

[David Jamieson]

Combat looks like how you train for it.
If you train full contact and are used to the stimuli of actual combat, you will maintain whatever "shape" you consistently train at.
If you do NOT train that way, your "shape" will be compromised and "fall apart" when under pressure.
It really is just that simple.

Most martial artists do not train at full contact unless they are readying for a fight.
Grappling schools have the luxury of less injury, not so for the striking arts.

Maintaining style is not as important as having effect through strength, condition and good structure of applications.

Every martial art deals with position of strength in a style and covers foundations.
there are very few gyms/clubs/kwoons/dojos that have full contact sparring regularly.

Besides, nobody full contact spars all the time except for grapplers.

If someone tells you they full contact kickbox and they aren't always sporting a bruise or a black eye, then it's likely they're taking the mick with you. lol

Having said that, competition type clubs will get you doing that on at least a 1 time a week basis. Boxing club, Kung Fu club that offers Sanda training, etc.

If someone wants to get serious, they will. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most martial artists do not train at full contact unless they are readying for a fight.
Grappling schools have the luxury of less injury, not so for the striking arts.

Maintaining style is not as important as having effect through strength, condition and good structure of applications.

Every martial art deals with position of strength in a style and covers foundations.
there are very few gyms/clubs/kwoons/dojos that have full contact sparring regularly.

Besides, nobody full contact spars all the time except for grapplers.

If someone tells you they full contact kickbox and they aren't always sporting a bruise or a black eye, then it's likely they're taking the mick with you. lol

Having said that, competition type clubs will get you doing that on at least a 1 time a week basis. Boxing club, Kung Fu club that offers Sanda training, etc.

If someone wants to get serious, they will. :)
Indeed, don't argue with that.
My point is that the shape of combat is based on how ones trains full contact ( or at least hard contact).

[David Jamieson]

Indeed, don't argue with that.
My point is that the shape of combat is based on how ones trains full contact ( or at least hard contact).

Your point is totally valid. Full contact has people revise what they thought was good positioning, good entering strategy etc. It's when the pressure of reality is revealed that we start to make our adjustments in style to that reality.

Fighting will change the shape of an "art" by recognizing the requirements of function vs the requirements of training strength and conditioning.

[MightyB]

the shape matches whatever's most efficient to you. Is this effected by how you train? Absolutely, but it all comes down to what works when you need it to work. It has very little to do with what you wished or hoped would work.

[EarthDragon]

as a judge for many years I see this transformation often. I see a person play a form you can tell right away where its from even what part of the region. then say they do push hands, then possibly fight, if there qualifying in all events.

I see the precision concentration in the form and proper body mechanics and weight shifts in the push hands, then I see it go out the window when it comes time to fight. this is a common problem

flip side, fighting only I have judged many MMA fights you cant tell what style they do which is OK but what you do should be recognizable and are least you should be able to say oh hes a BJJ guy or sambo, wrestler etc etc.

[YouKnowWho]

For me, everything starts with basic boxing.

You don't have to always start from the basic boxing. You try to skip that step if your opponent is a good striker. You can start from "grip fight". The "grip fight" is different from the "fist fight". You give up your striking opportunity by trying to disable your opponent's striking ability at the same time.


Combat looks like how you train for it. If you train full contact ...
This is why it makes no sense for a grappler to exchange punches with a boxer. The grappler just doesn't train that way.

Not sure what "full contact" may mean in the grappling game.

[jdhowland]

As for the waist power, again, I agree with you.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like they're glossin over the basic components that make an effective style. This isn't the case in every school, of course, but it does seem to run rampant in kenpo especially. So you see these guys doing these techs, but they are all hands and arms with no power. Again, I benefit from past experience. Waist power is especially important in okinawan karate do.

Perhaps there is this tendency to shy away from traditional methods in an attempt to adopt more modern forms such as boxing without proper training?

I suspect the disconnect happened because Hawaiian Kenpo was originally Okinawa Karatedo, although Mitose tried to cover its origins. Later Chow and others tried to give it a Chinese base without really learning TCMA. So it was something incompletely distorted into something else without regard to the power concepts needed to make it work. Fortunately, some branches have evolved since those days.

[-N-]

american kempo has no real history of fighting in full contact events, if all you do is soft slap sparring, forms and compliant drills you can get away with not generating power properly (see also wing chun for this problem) that’s the sad truth of it

There was a lot of point sparring in the 60's and 70's. Basically playing tag.

Kenpo was pretty good with groin kicks though. One of their favorite targets, and they always went there in sparring.

A few years ago, a karate school I knew visited their friend's Kenpo school for sparring exchange. All the karate guys got surprised taking kicks to the groin.

[Jimbo]

Many years ago, I was a Kenpo black belt, and when I was training it, I never liked the self-defense techniques or forms. But when we sparred, we never point-sparred or slap-sparred; it was always kickboxing, but with groin attacks, too. My teacher had a background in both wrestling and boxing, and was very good. I liked the sparring aspect the best. I always felt a disconnect between the techniques and the fighting.

When I started Kenpo at 13, I thought karate was just karate; I didn't know about styles and whatnot. To me, MA's meant judo and karate back then. I just chose the best school that was closest. It ended up being a very good school, even though I ended up leaving eventually to learn other things. I still respect and am in contact occasionally with my former kenpo teacher.

I had a book written by Mitose called Kenpo Jujitsu. Though I didn't really understand the jujitsu connection, if any.

[Yum Cha]

american kempo has no real history of fighting in full contact events, if all you do is soft slap sparring, forms and compliant drills you can get away with not generating power properly (see also wing chun for this problem) that’s the sad truth of it

I was under the belief that Parker and Dan Pai were Hawaiian street fighters before they put their styles together. Anybody?

[-N-]

Many years ago, I was a Kenpo black belt, and when I was training it, I never liked the self-defense techniques or forms. But when we sparred, we never point-sparred or slap-sparred; it was always kickboxing, but with groin attacks, too.

We had to connect with the groin kicks to make that distinctive pop sound from the other guy's cup. One guy passed out from the pain when he got kicked hard enough to split his groin cup.

Even our two person forms we had to contact the cup and get that sound. Kenpo seems to love hammerfist to the groin. Like every 3rd strike in a combo was a hammerfist to the groin. Didn't think it was all that great of a move though.

My first tournament as a kid... I was up against some kung fu guy who did a tornado kick at me. I cleared his first kick and threw my kick up before his second kick came around. He came down right on top of my rising kick and took it right between the legs.

[Frost]

I was under the belief that Parker and Dan Pai were Hawaiian street fighters before they put their styles together. Anybody?

it doesnt really matter what the arts founders were, if there's no history of fighting in the following gneerations things get lost quickly

[sanjuro_ronin]

it doesn't really matter what the arts founders were, if there's no history of fighting in the following generations things get lost quickly

This and it should be etched in stone in every dojo, dojang, kwoon and gym.

[SevenStar]

To me this is the shape of combat

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1109/women-sumo/images/51515645_10.jpg

I will actually second that. I recently began training in sumo. you hit hard, hit fast, strike, push and throw. most matches last less than 60 seconds.

[jdhowland]

Combat looks like how you train for it.
If you train full contact and are used to the stimuli of actual combat, you will maintain whatever "shape" you consistently train at.
If you do NOT train that way, your "shape" will be compromised and "fall apart" when under pressure.
It really is just that simple.

This is a good observation. In some longfist systems there are two kinds of training the shape of combat. One way is the testing training mentioned above. The other is the form training with more follow-through on the movements and more extension in the postures. The latter training aids balance and power development but it doesn't quite look the same in contact sparring. The techniques are still recognizable but the follow-through is felt rather than seen.

Which is the "shape" of the art? I say both: one is more abstract for developing power, range and balance, the other for practical use. The practical is the original intent while the abstract form is an adjunct to training.

[David Jamieson]

There was a lot of point sparring in the 60's and 70's. Basically playing tag.

Kenpo was pretty good with groin kicks though. One of their favorite targets, and they always went there in sparring.

A few years ago, a karate school I knew visited their friend's Kenpo school for sparring exchange. All the karate guys got surprised taking kicks to the groin.

I don't know what sort of queef huffing you've been doing :D, but back in the 70's I seem to remember guys beating the living tar out of each other without gloves or with light gloves or kempo gloves etc. Mouthguards and cups and full on blasting away.

Point sparring was tournament ghey BS that got big in the way late 70's, 80's and 90's when the big influx happened and everyone was doing it...but without insurance. At this time, tough man competitions came out which were the early versions of nhb in North America.

and so it evolved out that wu shu came into being, nhb started climbing in popularity and traditional started to diminish. By the 90's traditional was in real trouble and ufc was starting to get in the game.

Right now, it is the teens of the new millennium. UFC is now regarded as the realz and Traditional has schismed hard into those that do and those that dance.

Traditional schools are faced with bringing in real programs for people who want to fight. Schools lack credibility with the general public if they don't have fighters unless it's tai chi for old people or private esoteric kung fu study etc.

It will continue to evolve and i think that the sport fighting will continue to get more stylistic like boxing has done.

[Robinhood]

If you can't stay home and find yourself, no use looking for everybody else.

[-N-]

I don't know what sort of queef huffing you've been doing :D, but back in the 70's I seem to remember guys beating the living tar out of each other without gloves or with light gloves or kempo gloves etc. Mouthguards and cups and full on blasting away.

Point sparring was tournament ghey BS that got big in the way late 70's, 80's and 90's when the big influx happened and everyone was doing it...but without insurance. At this time, tough man competitions came out which were the early versions of nhb in North America.


I started Kenpo in 1970.

Sure, when people sparred each other in training, they went as hard as partners agreed to. And there was some decent contact. I didn't see full contact in the schools in the SF Bay Area.

There was a lot of point sparring at tournaments. And people would get disqualified for excessive contact.

I sparred a lot with a Praying Mantis guy who I later became classmates with. He wasn't allowed to show or teach me any of his kung fu, but if we sparred and I somehow picked up on what he was doing, that couldn't be helped, and he technically didn't break any rules.

He got disqualified at a tournament for excessive contact. He was just doing his kung fu the way he was taught.