The industry needs oversight

[ngokfei]

martial arts industry in trouble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRDij979HZY)

[yutyeesam]

Thanks for sharing.

I like the Gracie's take on the matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTxAjN1XSso

[EarthDragon]

wow thats sad, but to put together a compilation like that makes it look like an epidemic. for a few bad apples

[David Jamieson]

Not hard to regulate it at that level.

1. require a special license to operate a gym of any type
2. require background checks
3. Have a door colour system similar to restaurants based on that system (red = you pay your dime, you take your chances/ green = this is a lawful institution)

That should start it an prevent any tom **** and harry from providing services without the checkup.

I can't get a desk job without a police check why should someone jut start a business with access to kids an not have that same requirement?

Post your police background check on the wall.

It's only 40 bucks or so to get it.

[taai gihk yahn]

anytime an adult has potentially unsupervised contact w children, there should be background checks and other mechanisms in place to ensure the safety of every child;

background checks are straight forward, inexpensive and an excellent deterrent for people with a history; OTOH, they won't catch someone who has no record, and as such, each individual school should have clear policies and staff training regarding appropriate transparency for instructors who teach kids; just like i had to take a "Child Abuse Reporting" class to get my license, there should be similar requirements to operate a school that teaches kids; and this should go for any facility, be it gymnastics, dance schools, etc.;


wow thats sad, but to put together a compilation like that makes it look like an epidemic. for a few bad apples
this is exactly the wrong attitude, trying to downplay it as being misrepresentative of the situation; it doesn't make it look like an epidemic, it makes it look like there are valid instances of this sort of thing happening; and while you want to call then a "few bad apples", I would suggest you might not have such equanimity if it was your kid who had been molested; fact is, if this helps raise awareness to the point that even one kid who would otherwise have been victimized is spared the experience, then it's worth it; as for the rest of the "good" apples, they should be proudly enthusiastic about demonstrating definitively that they are going to appropriate lengths to ensure to parents that their children will be safe at their school

[JamesC]

Makes me sick.

We had 2 instructors in our area recently charged and convicted of the same crimes.

[GeneChing]

It's the emergent theme from our Busted Martial Artists thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48947). The very notion that the slang 'karate rape' exists should be enough to invoke regulation. It would shake up the industry, but in all honesty, any industry that works with children needs regulation nowadays. How the martial arts industry has escaped notice for so many years is beyond me.

[GoldenBrain]

I am all for regulating this industry and all others associated with teaching children, including the church.

My wife and I would love to open a school here in N Texas but stories like these give us pause. It's mostly the liability issues that scare us away.

Maybe if more teachers voluntarily post background checks and so forth it would start a trend where they could even capitalize on this. You know, something like the guy down the street doesn't have one but I do so everybody feels more comfortable coming to my school and therefore I make more money. Not only are you showing that you're safe, well as safe as a piece of paper could make you, but the bonus might be more business.

[Robinhood]

To much Yang, not enough Yin, that Is what happens when people are out of balance.

Most of these places are not balanced arts, just sport testosterone dens for predictors to dwell in, parents should be more aware that a grown man should not being interacting with a kid at a one on one level in any activities.

Places like that should be group classes for kids with adult supervision, not adult participation.

[Orion Paximus]

I don't mind regulation in a volunteer sort of way. If you want to take your kids to a known safe school, then you look for those certified teachers. But I would hate for a regulatory commission to have the authority to shut down a school that hasn't committed any wrong doing except for not being registered.

Do you think any of those old masters who came to whatever country they are in illegally would risk going to the authorities to get registered? Nope they just wouldn't teach and we'd all be the worse for it.

[GeneChing]

I don't think that would happen. If a school has a brick-and-mortar, it wouldn't take that much to meet some regulatory standards. Almost every other industry that teaches children - swimming, day care, you name it - meet such standards. True, it would be another fee and if the school was on the edge, it might just push it out of business. There would surely be a profound impact at first, but given the tarnish to the reputation of the martial arts, it is needed.

As for those old 'illegal' masters, if they don't have their green card, they probably aren't operating a legal business anyway so they wouldn't be beholden to these regulations. Underground backyard or garage teaching will always be with us. And most of those don't teach kids anyway.

[Robinhood]

I don't mind regulation in a volunteer sort of way. If you want to take your kids to a known safe school, then you look for those certified teachers. But I would hate for a regulatory commission to have the authority to shut down a school that hasn't committed any wrong doing except for not being registered.

Do you think any of those old masters who came to whatever country they are in illegally would risk going to the authorities to get registered? Nope they just wouldn't teach and we'd all be the worse for it.

You have that right, government is way over regulating enough already.

Maybe make prostitution legal, would that get rid of some of these perverts ?, probably not, I think some are just born that way.?

But any open school should be monitored or a least observed or inspected to follow certain rules when working with kids.

[Punch.HeadButt]

Can't watch the vids at the moment, so can't comment on them, but it's definitely something that needs to be addressed. I once worked at a local YMCA in child care, and they required background checks...it was a pretty painless process. There's no reason that somebody who is intent on opening a business that plans on having kids in its clientele (and, let's be honest, that's 90% of MA schools that open) can't go through that process. Of course it's not going to eliminate the problem, but it's SOMEthing...a fairly painless step in the right direction.

I really don't think the magnitude of this problem is fully understood by most. It's absolutely devastating not only to those involved, but the MA community as a whole. And it doesn't matter what political cubbyhole you take up in the MA world (if you're inclined to do so), the general public will tend to view the MA community as a single, culpable entity. There's gotta be SOME kind of regulation for any institution that is going to be dealing with children regularly, ESPECIALLY an institution in which the instructors laying their hands on the students is going to be a common occurrence (whether it's to correct a posture, help them stretch, whatever).

Relevant story with no real point: A few years back, when I was living in San Jose, some folks from out of town who were moving into the apartment complex I was living in asked me to help them move. The landlord pointed them in my direction because I was kind of a big guy at the time (compared to average) and he new I could always use some extra scratch. When we took a break for lunch, we all sat around a pizza and shot the ****. During that period, it came to light that the son of the family (I'd have to guess he was 18-21) had been a victim of sexual harassment as a kid via the TKD school he attended. I don't know how we fell on the subject (we were not discussing MA at all), but the family spoke about it pretty freely. Soon after that topic came up, they asked me what I did for a living. I had never felt so ashamed in telling a group of people that I was a martial arts instructor.

I don't know, whenever this stuff comes up, I really take it personally. As cliche as that "the children are our future" line is, I look at it as 100% correct. If you want to change the world, affect the children. Not like this. :mad:

[Kellen Bassette]

You have that right, government is way over regulating enough already.

Maybe make prostitution legal, would that get rid of some of these perverts ?, probably not, I think some are just born that way.?



Maybe not...but it would end an exercise in futility. They don't call it the world's oldest profession for nothing. It would certainly be safer if it were legal, since it's never going to go away.

I'm not in favor of more government regulation either. It ALWAYS seems to prove ineffective. Voluntary certification is a better way to go, IMO. If enough schools start doing it themselves, then it will apply pressure on the other schools and concerned people will ask to see the certification.

I think that beats another inefficient government agency mucking things up.

[David Jamieson]

I don't mind regulation in a volunteer sort of way. If you want to take your kids to a known safe school, then you look for those certified teachers. But I would hate for a regulatory commission to have the authority to shut down a school that hasn't committed any wrong doing except for not being registered.

Do you think any of those old masters who came to whatever country they are in illegally would risk going to the authorities to get registered? Nope they just wouldn't teach and we'd all be the worse for it.

I disagree with your sentiment. If someone is in a country illegally, they should gtfo and do it the right way and get in line.

Each and every "school" absolutely must follow guidelines and adhere to them or face being shut down. If you are running an institution with access to children and their education physical or otherwsie, then I am all for closely regulating that.

And yeah "karate rape" being a term is a huge indicator that it doesn't matter about the secret agent spy garbage that people try to sell themselves with.

[Featherstone]

I know that no system is perfect and you can put all the checks and balances in place and still come up short. I feel that these sicko's that prey on children just need to be put down, how do you rehab someone that rapes children?? Public execution using a pudao or something?

[Kellen Bassette]

And yeah "karate rape" being a term is a huge indicator that it doesn't matter about the secret agent spy garbage that people try to sell themselves with.

I actually never heard that term before this thread, but I do have a related "non story" myself.

When I was a teenager I fought in a "full contact" TKD tournament, representing an Okinawan Karate school. I beat a kid from the TKD school pretty bad, (but was disqualified for drawing blood...at a "full contact" tournament.)

Anyway, his teacher tried to get me to join his school, promising he would train me for the Olympics. I declined, being thoroughly unimpressed with him and his students. A while later it was big local news when it was discovered he had been diddling several little boys at his school. I wonder how his TKD served him in prison?:rolleyes:

[MightyB]

martial arts industry in trouble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRDij979HZY)

Our Judo organization requires that you pass a criminal background check in order to receive a black belt.

I don't think that's too much to ask of any martial artist who wants to be an instructor.

[pazman]

Do you think any of those old masters who came to whatever country they are in illegally would risk going to the authorities to get registered? Nope they just wouldn't teach and we'd all be the worse for it.

It was the case in the past when illegal Chinese immigrants were escaping political turmoil or lives of extreme poverty. That generally isn't the case today and we are much better off not having such disrespectful people in our country.


=GeneChing}As for those old 'illegal' masters, if they don't have their green card, they probably aren't operating a legal business anyway so they wouldn't be beholden to these regulations. Underground backyard or garage teaching will always be with us. And most of those don't teach kids anyway.

I know for a fact several commercial Wushu/gongfu schools on the West Coast, and a school here in the Midwest have, in the fairly recent past, employed both "illegal immigrants" and Chinese nationals with no work permit.

Anyways, that's off topic.

Having experience in teaching children and teens, there is no reason for not being able to submit to a background check. I will NEVER send my children to a school/gym without the teachers having the proper papers and policies.

[Orion Paximus]

Having experience in teaching children and teens, there is no reason for not being able to submit to a background check. I will NEVER send my children to a school/gym without the teachers having the proper papers and policies.

That's kind of my point, though, let it be up to the parents to see if they teacher has jumped through all these hoops to prove to them that their school is a safe environment. If a parent decides that they'd rather go with teacher X because of their martial arts skill and not because they haven't taken a course on how to not molest children, then it should be up to that parent.

JMO of course.

[Punch.HeadButt]

That's kind of my point, though, let it be up to the parents to see if they teacher has jumped through all these hoops to prove to them that their school is a safe environment. If a parent decides that they'd rather go with teacher X because of their martial arts skill and not because they haven't taken a course on how to not molest children, then it should be up to that parent.

So, would you like to see the regulation that's put in place for practically every other institution that has a large body of children removed, in favor of having the onus of judgement put on the parents?

Makes sense ideally, but it's just not realistic....unfortunately, most parents don't make that kind of effort. They'll just look at the prices, watch a trial class or two, and start leaving their kids there for an hour.

[David Jamieson]

Our Judo organization requires that you pass a criminal background check in order to receive a black belt.

I don't think that's too much to ask of any martial artist who wants to be an instructor.

Done! This is a requirement worth having in place. At least one of them anyway.

[GeneChing]

...otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[Vash]

For anyone working with my adult clients, in a non-martial setting, I require a clean background check. They aren't the cheapest thing in the world for a small business, but knowing that my people are that much less likely to be doing something messed up is worth the expense.

For anyone working with children, in an environment requiring as much physical contact as MA, it's essential, and I'd fully support regulation regarding it.

[JamesC]

I hate to say it, but the parents have a responsibility in this too.

You don't leave your child with another adult unsupervised. Period. I'm not saying you hold their hand or don't let the instructor do their job. It's their school and they should be allowed to discipline accordingly.

But, i'll be ****ed if I leave them unattended with someone I only know on a professional level. Hell, I only let my mother in law and my mother watch my kids. I may be a little paranoid after having read all the PC's to judges for so long that involved these kinds of charges.

[Kellen Bassette]

I think anyone could just check the sex offender registry. That's what they're looking for anyway. I know people who look up any new person they meet, if they are just the slightest bit creepy.

[JamesC]

I think anyone could just check the sex offender registry. That's what they're looking for anyway. I know people who look up any new person they meet, if they are just the slightest bit creepy.

Those people have already been caught and are legally prohibited from being around children already.

[Kellen Bassette]

Those people have already been caught and are legally prohibited from being around children already.

So what is a police report going to show? If they haven't done anything there will be nothing on the report.

[Jimbo]

A local instructor in my city was sentenced not too long ago to 26 years in state prison for having a sexual relationship with a teenage male student. This guy had been a longtime karate instructor, apparently specializing in teaching kids.

It really is tragic. It paints all MAists in a negative light. BUT...this only puts a spotlight on the fact that it's a pervasive problem, and not limited to MAs. There are people like that in every profession. It isn't expected to happen in MAs, where people are seeking a safe environment to hopefully empower themselves.

[JamesC]

So what is a police report going to show? If they haven't done anything there will be nothing on the report.

That's my point. A sex offender registry only helps if they've been caught. If they haven't been caught it is useless

[Jimbo]

You might be surprised to learn that many rapists and pedos are married family men.

[David Jamieson]

Supposition, speculation and conjecture aside, a police report confirms whether or not someone is of low character.

[Kellen Bassette]

Here is a general guide to tell how creepy your instructor is. Add up the percentage to see how likely it is that someone is getting molested.


It is strange how often a pedophile looks like the cliche pedophile.
How many percentage points do you add if the instructor drives a windowless van?

[Kellen Bassette]

Supposition, speculation and conjecture aside, a police report confirms whether or not someone is of low character.

Generally, but you also may end up misjudging decent people with an ancient possession charge or lapse in insurance or something stupid.

(Yes, lapse of insurance is as bad as petty larceny in New York.)

[GeneChing]

2. Instructor displays a photo where he has an american flag gi (+30%)
I suppose we could use our Patriot Uniform sales (http://www.martialartsmart.com/11-33.html) as a barometer then. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/safety-tips-from-a-former-pedophile.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

The mustache just screams pedophile or cop. Either way, I'm out.