Ltwt snt

[LFJ]

If there are any Leung Ting people, I have to ask. I've seen this on Youtube before but last night I met a guy and saw him perform it in person, and it blew my mind.

I'm talking about the gaang-sau section of SNT, where the hand lifts up to head height way out on the side, then does hyun-sau up in space. My mind can't conceive of what this might be doing or why.

Could someone explain it?

@1:05 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j442v6pdq8

[k gledhill]

If there are any Leung Ting people, I have to ask. I've seen this on Youtube before but last night I met a guy and saw him perform it in person, and it blew my mind.

I'm talking about the gaang-sau section of SNT, where the hand lifts up to head height way out on the side, then does hyun-sau up in space. My mind can't conceive of what this might be doing or why.

Could someone explain it?

@1:05 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j442v6pdq8

Subjective license ;) = fantasy land

[Paddington]

Could someone explain it?

@1:05 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j442v6pdq8

I am not an LT student but I think I can decipher a little bit of it. That movement going oh so high is, IMO, a tok sau or lifting arm. I think in reality and application, the way this LT student is doing it, that movement would be accompanied with a turn (like quite a bit of SLT in application actually), which would make that shape not as off the line as shown when performed square.

Of course, the above is just what I am seeing in that vid at that time frame. I am not going to comment on whether I consider it a good or bad way to train SLT.

[wingchunIan]

If there are any Leung Ting people, I have to ask. I've seen this on Youtube before but last night I met a guy and saw him perform it in person, and it blew my mind.

I'm talking about the gaang-sau section of SNT, where the hand lifts up to head height way out on the side, then does hyun-sau up in space. My mind can't conceive of what this might be doing or why.

Could someone explain it?

@1:05 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j442v6pdq8

I'd be interested to hear the explanations too. There is a whole lot going on in the video that is completely alien to the way I was taught SNT and the rest of wing chun for that matter, so it would be good to get an insight from someone who has actually been taught this way.

[BPWT]

If there are any Leung Ting people, I have to ask. I've seen this on Youtube before but last night I met a guy and saw him perform it in person, and it blew my mind. I'm talking about the gaang-sau section of SNT, where the hand lifts up to head height way out on the side, then does hyun-sau up in space. My mind can't conceive of what this might be doing or why.

Could someone explain it?

I will try. :) I train in Leung Ting's system, though I should say that the way things are done in that video clip are not exactly as I do them/was taught them. The commentary was in German, so in all likelihood the guy is doing SNT from the EWTO (Keith Kernspecht's organization), and I don't train in the EWTO.

So some of the positioning is different for me.

But generally speaking...

Following gwat sau, the arm is lifted up (from the elbow) in lau sau. This used to be a tighter, lower movement in the past, but I believe Leung Ting changed it a little to emphasis one of the potential applications. The way I do it, the hand raises to around/just above the height of my shoulder.

The common application is to deflect a kick using gwat sau and then scoop and lift the opponent's leg using the lau sau movement - this is usually done at pretty much the same time as you step in strike with your other hand. You can use the motions to attack your opponent (often a fak sau to the throat) while he is losing balance... or as is more common in training, you use the movement of raising his kicking leg with your combined forward motion to project him backwards.

The huen sau movement that follows the lau sau is more... complicated :) I have never seen huen used directly after lau in application (e.g. against the said kick).

But as we know, lots of things in SNT (sequences of movements) are not always applied as such. However, after the huen you strike with a low side-palm, and this is more application-based.

I think in most lines/lineages the huen can be used when you bridge is outside your opponent's and you want to move it inside to get into the center. So in that sense, the huen to low palm sequence can be applied 'as is'.

Why have the 'exact' sequence of gwat-lau-huen-palm strike? I don't know. :) For that you'd have to ask Leung Ting.

But the placement of huen in the sequence is not too odd if you consider how many times we see huen sau in SNT. We do it after every punch and palm strike (in the LT WT system). You wouldn't really punch someone and then need to huen sau, generally speaking, yet huen appears like this very, very often.

The connection of strike-and-huen is more about training one of the properties of huen sau - working the joints (wrist and elbow) and tendons, to develop 'good wrists' and the correct way to get power out.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am at work so I will watch the vid later tonight.

However, when I trained in Germany I can say that we never had any movement in the SNT which went out to the side and up to our head as you describe.

I was always taught not to go beyond shoulders and the highest our hands went was to our eyebrows and that was when doing something like a Bill Sau or such.

Like I said I will take a look at the vid when I am not at work. My comments may change. But it has been several years since I left their organization, like 1991 or so.

[jimhalliwell]

The vid at 1.05

the movement is Gwat sau a leung ting invention I think to capture round kicks at that level

Jim.

[Graham H]

The vid at 1.05

the movement is Gwat sau a leung ting invention I think to capture round kicks at that level

Jim.

Isn't 99% of LTWT invented?? :D:D

[jimhalliwell]

Isn't 99% of LTWT invented?? :D:D


Graham your spot on!

[BPWT]

The vid at 1.05 the movement is Gwat sau a leung ting invention I think to capture round kicks at that level. Jim.

Actually, gwat sau is not meant to capture (round kicks or straight front kicks), it is a 'wiping' motion that clears the line. In SNT, the lau sau that follows gwat would capture the kick. Gwat sau is really as much a motion as anything else - so for example, if I punch and my punch is re-directed by someone's bong sau, I could use gwat sau to clear the bong and make way for another punch.

So for us, garn sau would be a 'straight down' motion, while gwat sau would be a 'wiping across' motion.


Isn't 99% of LTWT invented??

:rolleyes: :p

[Grumblegeezer]

I'm also on lunch at work and can't view the clip, but I did spend a fair amount of time training under Leung Ting. BPWT is quite correct. The movement sequence you describe is "wiping arm"(guat-sau), then "scooping arm" (lau-sau), to high tan-sau (ko tan-sau), followed by a huen-sau and low-level lying palm (dai wang cheung).

First, as BPWT noted, this was originally a more compact sequence (when I learned it in 1980) that has gotten a bit bigger to emphasize it's application to wipe aside a mid-level thrusting kick (not a roundhouse!) followed by a scoop and throw. The huen sau and low palm are separate and not part of this application.

Secondly in LT's "WT" he differenciates between the typical "splitting block" or gaun-sau and this particular movement he terms "guat-sau" or wiping block. And yes, LT himself has state that this sequence is one of the modifications or changes he has made in the form (as compared to the Yip Man version in that old super eight footage). But all in all, the LT version of SNT differs only slightly from the Yip Man version, and when you see the intended applications, the movements are logical. Not necessarily "better", but still in conformity with basic WC concepts.

Now I'll have to go home and watch that clip to see exactly what the heck you are all looking at. At any rate, try not to get too worked up over it.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Just watched the video and to me those movements are very exaggerated.

When I trained in WT those movements were much more compact.

While things may have changed, as another has already implied, this was not how I was taught the SNT in WT.

Then again, it was common to be taught slight variations for each form at various seminars or other training sessions with LT. All were fairly similar but each "variation" seemed to focus on a different aspect.

To me the greatest resource were the Seven Sections of Chi Sau. Each addressed a specific energy and, to me, the goal was to "forget" the sections and flow freely.

[anerlich]

Isn't all Wing Chun invented? Or did it spring fully formed from the Void?

[Grumblegeezer]

Hello, Just watched the video and to me those movements are very exaggerated. When I trained in WT those movements were much more compact.

Yeah, I just played the clip and I agree totally. The movements are exaggerated to the point of violating WT principles as taught to me by Leung Ting. I've always been told that the EWTO keeps a very high standard, but I have real problems with the way this guy's tok-sau/ko-tan-sau angles outward past the side-line of his body, then has to angle back so sharply to the lower lying palm. Not efficient or economical, and has no centerline/elbow power behind it.

I also have an issue with the geometry of his guat-sau. The way he breaks down the movement by first rotating the elbow outward and then straightening his elbow appears to break the kinetic linkage of the movement, making two movements out of one and also weakening it considerably. The movement as LT used to demonstrate it some 20 -30 years back when I trained under him was not created by snapping the elbow straight like gaun-sau but by sweeping the whole arm to the side, powered by the large muscles of the back. This created a very strong movement linked to the structure of the stance and steps which I've found very useful in deflecting strong mid-level thrust-kicks such as the popular "push kick" you see a lot these days.

To be generous, I don't speak German and don't understand the commentary. Perhaps these movements are shown in this exaggerated way specifically to illustrate the leg-scoop application. But the problem is that's just one of many possible applications. SNT is not application-specific. It is (or should be) much more universal, like an alphabet IMHO.

[BPWT]

I also have an issue with the geometry of his guat-sau.... The movement as LT used to demonstrate it some 20 -30 years back when I trained under him was not created by snapping the elbow straight like gaun-sau but by sweeping the whole arm to the side, powered by the large muscles of the back. This created a very strong movement linked to the structure of the stance and steps which I've found very useful in deflecting strong mid-level thrust-kicks such as the popular "push kick" you see a lot these days.

Agreed! :) At a recent seminar I was training the very first chi sau section with one of the Sihings and his gwat d*mn-near took my arm off. I had him do it again and again so I could try and better understand this linkage you're talking about.

My conclusion: in application, what looks like a fairly simple arm movement is really about putting together movements from the back, hips, torso and knees. The effect through the arm is the by-product. ;) And no, I still can't get the power this guy generated :D

[Grumblegeezer]

Here's the Leung Ting version of Siu Nim Tau as it was performed by a female student on an old video from the early 80s. The movement sequence referred to in the OP occurs at about 1:38 - 1:56. You can see that it's much more compact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_SI9znsJQ

[LFJ]

That video looks better. The guy I saw performed it just like the video I showed. The elbow and hand came far off the center, and the hyun-sau even as a separate application was not in a realistic position. I don't know what you'd be circling up there.

Anyway, thanks for the replies. My understanding of SNT is all basic shapes, concepts and principles. No "applications" or sequences. So you can imagine such a thing. It really did blow my mind. First time seeing that in person. I was not in a position to question it though.