The difference between Judo and western wrestling

[YouKnowWho]

There are many leg skills used in Judo such as scoop, sticky, sweep, lift, hook, block, break, cut, twist, spring, ... We don't see those kind of leg skills used in western wrestling.

Why these 2 grappling arts are so different in nature? What's your opinion on this?

[Bernard]

I took judo for only a short time. My guess is the fact that judo is a form of jacket wrestling is a factor in determining what leg techniques are used. While there are leg techniques used in freestyle wrestling, the holds put you in much tighter with the opponent.

[PalmStriker]

I see judo as more akin to aikido which is taiji-like in aversion/throwing art. Western wrestling is much more like jujutsu so I wouldn't expect to see the same arsenal as they have different aim. Sumo is like a cross between the two. :) Two grapplers can't wait to grapple the hell out of each other. The throwing arts don't want to be grappled or locked down, prefer to stay on their feet.

[LaRoux]

There are many leg skills used in Judo such as scoop, sticky, sweep, lift, hook, block, break, cut, twist, spring, ... We don't see those kind of leg skills used in western wrestling.

Why these 2 grappling arts are so different in nature? What's your opinion on this?

I'd say it is pretty obvious to anyone who has done both.

Both Western wrestling (as well as non-western wrestling) and Judo have evolved the way have certain ways both because of the gi (or lack thereof), as well as the rule-sets.

[David Jamieson]

While both are about position and timing, Judo places more emphasis on throws while western wrestling is about holds and pins.

[jdhowland]

... Two grapplers can't wait to grapple the hell out of each other. The throwing arts don't want to be grappled or locked down, prefer to stay on their feet.

This pretty much says it. Looking at the historical development can give some insight to the preferred methods. One is not better than the other. They exist for different conditions.

A few centuries ago European combat wrestling included grips on clothing for throws but for the most part western wrestling has survived as a sport in which contestants are minimally clad. Some wrestling idealizes the Greek model (look up the etymology for the word gymnastic).

The throwing arts of judo are derived from classical jujitsu which considered the problem of coming to grips with someone wearing armor. Strikes are useless but if you could stun your opponent by throwing him to the ground you might have a moment to use a short weapon to despatch your foe.

Most modern jujitsu styles (including Kodokan Judo) developed after the seventeenth century when the bushi class were already in decline. The lack of armor or general skill with weapons meant that more schools emphasized jujitsu as wrestling (with some consideration for weapons) rather than as an adjunct to weapon arts. Shime waza or constriction holds became more practical and the ground game changed.

For what it's worth, I think that military systems could not afford to emphasize ground wrestling. It is more athletically challenging than the simplicity required of military training but it also requires much more time and expentiture of energy to win. Wrestling is about overcoming an opponent which means you will probably spend a lot of time on the floor. Battlefield tactics require killing your opponent as efficiently as possible. If you end up on the ground you may already be considered "lost." That is why the old "jujitsu" and the new are completely different beasts.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1210187]There are many leg skills used in Judo such as scoop, sticky, sweep, lift, hook, block, break, cut, twist, spring, ... We don't see those kind of leg skills used in western wrestling...QUOTE]

One form of western wrestling which has excellent leg skills is the Icelandic sport of glima. Originating from a form of combat in which one tries to control the hilt of his opponents sword with one hand and his sword arm with the other it uses grips, throws and leg tricks exclusively. An early 20th century champion used it in inter-style contests with judoka to good effect.

I've been training in it for about a decade and find it clarifies the footwork in my Chinese systems. Very good stuff.

[mawali]

There are many leg skills used in Judo such as scoop, sticky, sweep, lift, hook, block, break, cut, twist, spring, ... We don't see those kind of leg skills used in western wrestling.

Why these 2 grappling arts are so different in nature? What's your opinion on this?


Present day judo (post WWII) seemed to rely on throwing alone while modern wrestling tends to be theatrical vs the more competitive collegiate wrestling, where most of the professionals seem to come from since they are heavily represented in judo, shuaijiao and other wrestling oriented sports. My use of theatrical wrestling was in the WWW entertainment vein that seems to be the face of present wrestling as opposd to the collegiate field!
Pre WWII judo compriesed of ne-waza (ground techniques) but soemhow these were left out,/forgotten but crept back in due to the BJJ experience in submission taught by Count Maeda when he ended up in Brazil.

[YouKnowWho]

If

- Judo is for jacket environment, and
- wrestling is for no-jacket environment,

what will happen when people apply

- wrestling in jacket environment, or
- Judo in no-jacket environment?

Will the final evolved art be more like Judo or wrestling?

[LaRoux]

If

- Judo is for jacket environment, and
- wrestling is for no-jacket environment,

what will happen when people apply

- wrestling in jacket environment, or
- Judo in no-jacket environment?

Will the final evolved art be more like Judo or wrestling?


Techniques from each of these disciplines have evolved from the most effective use of application in each environment.

Trying to use one set of specialized techniques for another specialized environment will simply leave you with something that doesn't work very well in either environment.

The fact that you don't understand this basic principle does explain why you tend to post so many techniques that are not applicable to a live situation.

[Robinhood]

If

- Judo is for jacket environment, and
- wrestling is for no-jacket environment,

what will happen when people apply

- wrestling in jacket environment, or
- Judo in no-jacket environment?

Will the final evolved art be more like Judo or wrestling?

The judo guy will not fair as good just wearing his underwear.

That's why you should practice in normal clothes , if you want to test what works outside the dojo.

[LaRoux]

The judo guy will not fair as good just wearing his underwear.

That's why you should practice in normal clothes , if you want to test what works outside the dojo.

The judo guy will not fair as good in the underwear situation. However, he will tend to do better in the fully clothed situation, especially if the fully clothed situation is with jackets.

[MightyB]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

In practice settings Judo and wrestling are very similar:

Head and Arm throws = the same.
Hip Toss = the same.
Fireman's Carry = the same.
Uchi Mata and Harai Goshi = the same without a gi to grip
Ouchi Gari = the same

Most of the hold downs = the same except Judo can choke a mofo out and fight off their back.

Judo can no longer attack the legs with the hands directly (no shoot for single, double leg, or fireman's without attacking with something else first).

As a matter of fact, Judo and western wrestling are so similar that I'm shocked that I don't see more high school wrestlers doing Judo in their off season to stay sharp.

In competition is where the gi comes into play and Judo guys do use dirty gi (koka Jitsu) techniques for throwing that have very little to do with self defense.

[SevenStar]

I see judo as more akin to aikido which is taiji-like in aversion/throwing art. Western wrestling is much more like jujutsu so I wouldn't expect to see the same arsenal as they have different aim. Sumo is like a cross between the two. :) Two grapplers can't wait to grapple the hell out of each other. The throwing arts don't want to be grappled or locked down, prefer to stay on their feet.


judo isn't like Aikido...aikido is gentle and based on joint manipulation. judo is called "the gentle way", but those who have done it know it ain't gentle. wrestling is not like jujutsu, which spawned judo. sumo is not a cross between them. have you seen a sumo syllabus? it is straight judo without a gi. (okay, I guess the lack of a jacket is why you say it's a hybrid) the fact that you can strike makes it akin to shuai chiao.

in regards to your last sentence, you can lose by pinning in judo. they do ground work as well.