Hendrik question

[k gledhill]

SLT without Chum Kil is not functional, so why do attribute so much "engine" to SLT ? It needs dynamics of movement. The addition of dealing with dynamic force , momentum in a fight is a skill we focus on and take advantage of with centerline fighting.

[GlennR]

SLT without Chum Kil is not functional, so why do attribute so much "engine" to SLT ? Its need dynamics of movement. The addition f dealing with dynamic force , momentum in a fight is a skill we focus on and take advantage of with centerline fighting.

All that doesn't work if you donr get slt, and the engine, right

For once I'd go with Hendrick

[wingchunIan]

Personally I'd say SNT and CK are as important as each other. CK doesn't work without SNT and SNT is useless without the mobility of CK. SNT facilitates being able to engage with CK.

[LoneTiger108]

SLT without Chum Kil is not functional, so why do attribute so much "engine" to SLT ? Its need dynamics of movement. The addition f dealing with dynamic force , momentum in a fight is a skill we focus on and take advantage of with centerline fighting.

Y'know I aint posted here in a while now and THIS post is a true gem :D

It actually proves your ignorance to any Wing Chun teaching that existed prior to Ip Man, but in fact I think you PBWSL dudes discount anything anybody taught before our dear Philip Bayer?! I often wonder if he knows or will even remember you seminar guys?

Anyway, enough about that. Why don't you look at some of the history about Wing Chun Kev and try and grasp the fact that the 3 forms we see today never existed like that in the earlier practices. The ideas of Chum Kiu and Biu Jee were already embedded in the original set, hence why it is named Siu Lien Tau and not Siu Nim tau. It simply is not the same set.

This is only ONE of quite a few versions but I think it gives an idea of what I'm trying to say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRbpfs31N20

Now this isn't to say that I understand what the hell Hendrik yaps about half the time, but I do see and am trying to get to know more about the mainland and operatic families that still exist today. In fact I have known some practitioners since 1999 and all their forms are different to what Ip Man taught BUT they contain the same, if not identical principles.

Maybe you should get off the couch and get out more...

[Hendrik]

SLT without Chum Kil is not functional, so why do attribute so much "engine" to SLT ? Its need dynamics of movement. The addition f dealing with dynamic force , momentum in a fight is a skill we focus on and take advantage of with centerline fighting.



Your question is a classical for westerner who is not familiar with traditional Chinese martial art system.


In tradition Chinese art, theRe has to be a Kung or body of the art and the fatt or application of the art. The body of the art support the application, the application express the power of the body of the art.

The body of the art include many things including the power generation development, structure. Joints handling...ect. In a specific way to support the applications.


Siu nim tau or siu Lin tau set of the three sets is the training to develop the body of the art. In WCK that body of the art is said to be the snake body. Why? It has a characteristics of coil spring be able to shoot or accept the impact from the center line. The two kuen kuits share here from the red boat era is the description and instruction of the siu Lin tau.

Siu nim tau is focus on "direct " coil spring momentum
Chum kil needs that siu Lin tau of basic to extended to a "roundabout " coil spring momentum
Biu jee extended further to " recover" coil spring momentum.

One needs to develop the "direct " coil sprint before can further extend to roundabout , then only after roundabout , to recovery. Instead jump step and missing the foundation. That is the design of the WCK when the one long set is split into three sets 1850 era, as we know today .


Now, IMHO, WCK has an issue if the siu nim tau body of the art is not develop. As Hawkin asking "do you have the snake body?" in his YouTube. However, today,most don't develop this body of the art but thinking a default muscle strength to push is what it needs. Or rooting like hung gar or moving like taiji with round hip...etc which is not the development of the siu Lin Tau design for.

[Vajramusti]

Your question is a classical for westerner who is not familiar with traditional Chinese martial art system.


In tradition Chinese art, theRe has to be a Kung or body of the art and the fatt or application of the art. The body of the art support the application, the application express the power of the body of the art.

The body of the art include many things including the power generation development, structure. Joints handling...ect. In a specific way to support the applications.


Siu nim tau or siu Lin tau set of the three sets is the training to develop the body of the art. In WCK that body of the art is said to be the snake body. Why? It has a characteristics of coil spring be able to shoot or accept the impact from the center line. The two kuen kuits share here from the red boat era is the description and instruction of the siu Lin tau.

Siu nim tau is focus on "direct " coil spring momentum
Chum kil needs that siu Lin tau of basic to extended to a "roundabout " coil spring momentum
Biu jee extended further to " recover" coil spring momentum.

One needs to develop the "direct " coil sprint before can further extend to roundabout , then only after roundabout , to recovery. Instead jump step and missing the foundation. That is the design of the WCK when the one long set is split into three sets 1850 era, as we know today .


Now, IMHO, WCK has an issue if the siu nim tau body of the art is not develop. As Hawkin asking "do you have the snake body?" in his YouTube. However, today,most don't develop this body of the art but thinking a default muscle strength to push is what it needs. Or rooting like hung gar or moving like taiji with round hip...etc which is not the development of the siu Lin Tau design for.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- with the above post your writing and explanation is getting better.

[Hendrik]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- with the above post your writing and explanation is getting better.

Thanks! I try!

[Hendrik]

The most fundamental basic od the siu nim tau snake body is a training of the handling of ones seven major joints of the physical body. How these seven joints used as an integration, separation, joint by joint in sequence, joints synchronization, within the philosophy of using center guarding center philosophy of the wing Chun kuen.

[cobra]

What do you mean by moving like Tai Ji with round hip?

[Hendrik]

You're talking sh&t dude, like your clips you don't show fighting, you espouse intellectual servitude to your 'cult' approach... show me a fight and you moving to use the 'idea'.

I claim bull****, prove it.




Take a look at 7.4 to the end , on WCK siu Lin tau and second form or chum kil form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3hLnXD8SlA


Btw, it is from Hawkins the student of Ipman , the classmate of WSL .
Perhaps , it is you in a cult thinking your cult way, but not WCK as from Ipman?




Btw, I am just open the curtain, sure many don't like it, those who following cult, those who proclaim as guru, those who create their own WCK , are expected to not like what they see under the sun.

Today wcner has a good view from 2013 to 1850

[Hendrik]

What do you mean by moving like Tai Ji with round hip?

Moving the hip to rotate Dan Dian.

[Hendrik]

Show me your idea...I can see HC using ..!! Chum Kil !! I dont agree with his thinking, I have visited ( yawn not again ) personally and chi-saoed with his ideas. Not impressed, but at least I am talking from experience ( not ego ) . It was a friendly visit and he is a really nice guy. I also met WSL lineage various uk, spain , usa branches, HK too, direct students of WSL and WSL himself......'hands on' and frankly a name doesn't ensure any kind of quality or steadfast thinking on the same lines....

You need to get out of your living room and play in a gym full of A type boxers, mma, mt...hit a heavy bag for 3 minutes straight ( not a lot ; ) ) using your snake engine :D



WCK is WCK .
What you see and what you want to believe is upto you.

[k gledhill]

WCK is WCK .
What you see and what you want to believe is upto you.

Ving Tsun is a definable skill, not an art open to subjective interpretation. It is open to comprehension issues due to its abstract nature.

[Hendrik]

Ving Tsun is a definable skill, not an art open to subjective interpretation. It is open to comprehension issues due to its abstract nature.


No siu nim tau no WCK. That is the bottom line.

[k gledhill]

No siu nim tau no WCK. That is the bottom line.

Okaaaay lets move on, Ving tsun is dependent on angling and movement to work. Like the weapons we use, we too need to change positions and counter attack, etc... a basic pole set is static to learn the alignment of the pole before we start to move and angle to attacks and counter, etc....you cant stand still in a basic stance and expect to create dynamic force using momentum of the body in motion.Or learn to recover errors of the same or take advantage of others errors unless...you move around, like fighters do outside their living rooms.

[Hendrik]

Okaaaay lets move on, Ving tsun is dependant on angling and movement to work.

Like the wepons we use we too need to changes positions and counter attack, etc... a basic pole set is static to learn the alignment of the pole before we start to move and angle to attacks and counter, etc....you cant stand still in a basic stance and expect to create dynamic force using momentum of the body in motion.

Or learn to recover errors of the same or take advantage of others errors unless...you move around, like fighters do outside their living rooms.


By evidence of your post,
You don't understand the body of the art, but keeping address application of the art.

That is just 1/2 of WCK.

[Robinhood]

Okaaaay lets move on, Ving tsun is dependent on angling and movement to work. Like the weapons we use, we too need to change positions and counter attack, etc... a basic pole set is static to learn the alignment of the pole before we start to move and angle to attacks and counter, etc....you cant stand still in a basic stance and expect to create dynamic force using momentum of the body in motion.Or learn to recover errors of the same or take advantage of others errors unless...you move around, like fighters do outside their living rooms.

Well your half right, wc is angles and moving a around a little , but that is the beginning stage, there is more beyond that, a lot more.

I think the reason you haven't experienced it, is usually people that know it don't care if you don't have it and don't have ego problem to show you up, so they just shine you on and tell your stuff is good, because they don't like you and are not interested in showing someone with big ego or for whatever reason they have, I see it happen all the time.

That's what happens when you visit other people who are not really close friends.

[Hendrik]

Well your half right, wc is angles and moving a around a little , but that is the beginning stage, there is more beyond that, a lot more.

I think the reason you haven't experienced it, is usually people that know it don't care if you don't have it and don't have ego problem to show you up, so they just shine you on and tell your stuff is good, because they don't like you and are not interested in showing someone with big ego or for whatever reason they have, I see it happen all the time.

That's what happens when you visit other people who are not really close friends.


As I post above, there are three major core in WCK, namely, direct momentum handling, roundabout momentum handling, and recovery momentum handling.

In each of the momentum handling , it consists of the engine which driven it and the technics which manual it.

And each of these core build up from the other, the recovery on top of the roundabout, the roundabout on top of the direct, the direct is the most basic. That is the siu Lin Tau teaching.


However, when one cant even read post properly and keep close within ones own turned vision. One can not see what it is, what others is adressing.

Some keep posting how good they can fight....ect. But if they can't even cool thier head and read , they can not even know what is going on.

[Eric_H]

Anyway, enough about that. Why don't you look at some of the history about Wing Chun Kev and try and grasp the fact that the 3 forms we see today never existed like that in the earlier practices. The ideas of Chum Kiu and Biu Jee were already embedded in the original set, hence why it is named Siu Lien Tau and not Siu Nim tau. It simply is not the same set.


This is factually incorrect.

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

Siu Lein Tao means little drilling in the beginning - it's the concept of drilling mechanics around an idea. In the case of Yik Kam's wing chun, it seems he felt that the snake engine was a big deal (assuming Hendrik represents that teaching correctly... which is a big assumption) so he built a drilling set around it.

Siu Nim Tao means the little idea in the beginning - is the ability to focus on the concepts of wing chun and how to manifest them in structure. It's not a drilling set of the hands, it's a drilling set for the mind.

[Hendrik]

This is factually incorrect.

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

Siu Lein Tao means little drilling in the beginning - it's the concept of drilling mechanics around an idea. In the case of Yik Kam's wing chun, it seems he felt that the snake engine was a big deal (assuming Hendrik represents that teaching correctly... which is a big assumption) so he built a drilling set around it.

Siu Nim Tao means the little idea in the beginning - is the ability to focus on the concepts of wing chun and how to manifest them in structure. It's not a drilling set of the hands, it's a drilling set for the mind.



1. Snake body is a common denominator of the red boat era WCK lineages. As one can see it exist in the snake crane WCK lineage, the yik kam lineage, the Ipman lineage as Hawkin recently present it to the public.

2. Both The siu Lin tau long set of yik kam and the siu nim tau, ck, and biu jee set develop the snake engine or snake body. Snake body or snake engine is the Kung part of WCK.

3. Both the long siu Lin tau set of yik kam and the three sets has five layers, the physical, mind, breathing , qi , and. Momentum, force change, center line capture layers.

4. We know today what is the very very likely reason of is spliting a long set type system to the three sets type system in 1850. And can pin point to two persons who were responsible to this WCK evolution and why.

5. The siu nim Tao of the three sets was kept in the evolution of reorganization to three sets system to cultivate the Kung. Namely, the snake body is one of the target of development. So, siu Lin Tau is the process of transform into the snake body crane limbs. Only after that, ck, bj for further development. And finally return to only siu Lin tau because all three sets merge into one when the movement become smaller and smaller.

6. The long set was evolve away due to the complex of the internal content and application . The three sets is a much better system to learn for application in short time, however with a trade off of risking totally losing the Kung and internal engine part. Evolve into only application without engine.

This theard is the evidence of many has losing the Kung or body of the art or engine. Thus, they think as they think.

7. I design the drill as the intermidiate step to aid one get transform while practicing the sets.

8. No one has to agree with me, the above is my reasons of why I do what.

[LoneTiger108]

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

This is what I was suggesting, I gave no indication as to where, when or who divided the single set into three. I know others have done much research into this but I don't really see that as important either, no matter how far you think they go back as a divided set. The fact is there are lineages around to this day that still teach a single set, and variations of a single set, rather than have a distinct 3 forms called SNT, CK and BJ.

I do also agree with Hendrik that there is much to the traditional arts that is missing from our more modern Wing Chun system today. This includes flag waving and turning rings of fire :D

Somethings however DO stay the same, and that is our system still seems to have a 'Bragger' or two...

[Hendrik]

This is what I was suggesting, I gave no indication as to where, when or who divided the single set into three. I know others have done much research into this but I don't really see that as important either, no matter how far you think they go back as a divided set. The fact is there are lineages around to this day that still teach a single set, and variations of a single set, rather than have a distinct 3 forms called SNT, CK and BJ.

I do also agree with Hendrik that there is much to the traditional arts that is missing from our more modern Wing Chun system today. This includes flag waving and turning rings of fire :D

Somethings however DO stay the same, and that is our system still seems to have a 'Bragger' or two...



One set or three sets, the general core is there. The one set get into the internal engine training deeper, while the three sets teaching the application in a more systematic clear way.

I think future wcners can learn both. To give them a wider view.

[Robinhood]

So you think angling and moving is the beginning stage, and SLT is after ??


SLT is always there, it is just training aid. Body level movement of angling and moving is beginning stage of learning, how to get past that is the mystery.

[anerlich]

I have to wonder what axe Hendrik has to grind with taiji. Like maybe an IMA guy beat him up, or something.

[imperialtaichi]

To think that Wing Chun has only ONE way of generating power, and the method is unique is laughable. Unless all WCers are deformed we will share common biomechanics, physiology and psychology. And methods.

True, each martial art has its own ways to cultivate power, and places different emphasis on different strategies; but in the end we all have four limbs and a head. There are only very limited ways to be biologically effective and efficient.

With an open mind, the more you look into Arts such as Tai Chi, Bagua, Xingyi, Baji, Hung Jia, Tanglang, White Crane, Shaolin etc. etc. etc., the more you see the similarities, not the differences. The boundaries between the Arts become grey.

To suggest "only my method is right, and anyone doing it differently is not Wing Chun" is a sign of ignorance and bigotry.

[Ozzy Dave]

True, each martial art has its own ways to cultivate power, and places different emphasis on different strategies; but in the end we all have four limbs and a head. There are only very limited ways to be biologically effective and efficient.

Absolutely agree, gung (attribute) training for a given martial art or even an intepretation within a martial art family will only support the strategies favoured, nothing more nothing less.

That there will be some cross over between martial arts is a forgone conclusion.

Dave

[Paul T England]

Great statment.

"With an open mind, the more you look into Arts such as Tai Chi, Bagua, Xingyi, Baji, Hung Jia, Tanglang, White Crane, Shaolin etc. etc. etc., the more you see the similarities, not the differences. The boundaries between the Arts become grey."

Many people in wing chun have closed minds when whing chun is a art of rebellion. I would bet money on lots of transfers of experience between taiji and wing chun in foshan and canton around the 1900s.

Siu Nim Tao is the seed so you can't understand chum kiu without it. The forms and system is not fixed, its not like one day you don't understand and the next you do, its a process and hopefully our understanding keeps developing otherwise why practice?

Also if you look at chum kiu you should find multiple ways of generating power.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Hendrik]

Absolutely agree, gung (attribute) training for a given martial art or even an intepretation within a martial art family will only support the strategies favoured, nothing more nothing less.

That there will be some cross over between martial arts is a forgone conclusion.

Dave


The above is a very general view. Which get people into seem understand but confuse state. As in pseudo zen talking of everything is zen but none understand the zen teaching.

However, if one Really develop an art , one will know yang taiji is not Chen taiji is not wu taiji, they are different and not the same, baji and Xing yi is not the same, ...etc

Siu Lin tau practice of WCK is very specific . It doesnt do those taiji rotate hip...ect, it doesnt do the forward stance. Siu lin tau capture the centerline at every move, taiji set don't do that way, baji, xingyi don't do that way, yi chuan doesn't do that way.

[Hendrik]

To think that Wing Chun has only ONE way of generating power, and the method is unique is laughable. Unless all WCers are deformed we will share common biomechanics, physiology and psychology. And methods.

True, each martial art has its own ways to cultivate power, and places different emphasis on different strategies; but in the end we all have four limbs and a head. There are only very limited ways to be biologically effective and efficient.

With an open mind, the more you look into Arts such as Tai Chi, Bagua, Xingyi, Baji, Hung Jia, Tanglang, White Crane, Shaolin etc. etc. etc., the more you see the similarities, not the differences. The boundaries between the Arts become grey.

To suggest "only my method is right, and anyone doing it differently is not Wing Chun" is a sign of ignorance and bigotry.


Since you claim to be a wcner, Are you open minded enough to practice siu Lin tau set and let the set speak for itself?

If not, what are you practice? Wing Chum or something else?

As for tai chi, bagua, Xing yi......ect those are different art, the following clip shows the different of Xing yi and WCK by evidence. Start 6.3


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fqwNGUq60I

So one needs to practice wing chun, know what wing Chun Is, before get into arts become grey theory. In fact when one says art become grey just mean one has never really know the art.

In the above clip, Xing yi doesn't do capture center line as wing Chun, the momentum handling of WCK is a totally different deal with Xing yi. Seeing is believe. One video worth a gigabytes. There is no gray, the wcner in the Clip only goal and score many times is capture the center line. Xing yi don't do that. One practice the siu Lin tau, ck, bj, woodern dummy, chisau for that capture of the center line. Not taiji, not Xing yi, not baji, not shao Lin, not bagua, not yee chuan. WCK theme is WCK theme. Center line capture, inner gate capture, straight to center line. Also WCK type of uniqueness certainly not taiji type of rotating hip .

[Eric_H]

1. Snake body is a common denominator of the red boat era WCK lineages. As one can see it exist in the snake crane WCK lineage, the yik kam lineage, the Ipman lineage as Hawkin recently present it to the public.

2. Both The siu Lin tau long set of yik kam and the siu nim tau, ck, and biu jee set develop the snake engine or snake body. Snake body or snake engine is the Kung part of WCK.

3. Both the long siu Lin tau set of yik kam and the three sets has five layers, the physical, mind, breathing , qi , and. Momentum, force change, center line capture layers.

4. We know today what is the very very likely reason of is spliting a long set type system to the three sets type system in 1850. And can pin point to two persons who were responsible to this WCK evolution and why.

5. The siu nim Tao of the three sets was kept in the evolution of reorganization to three sets system to cultivate the Kung. Namely, the snake body is one of the target of development. So, siu Lin Tau is the process of transform into the snake body crane limbs. Only after that, ck, bj for further development. And finally return to only siu Lin tau because all three sets merge into one when the movement become smaller and smaller.

6. The long set was evolve away due to the complex of the internal content and application . The three sets is a much better system to learn for application in short time, however with a trade off of risking totally losing the Kung and internal engine part. Evolve into only application without engine.

This theard is the evidence of many has losing the Kung or body of the art or engine. Thus, they think as they think.

7. I design the drill as the intermidiate step to aid one get transform while practicing the sets.

8. No one has to agree with me, the above is my reasons of why I do what.


This is about as wrong as it gets. Snake body never has, and never will, have anything to do with real WC.

Enjoy your WC mutation.

[Hendrik]

This is about as wrong as it gets. Snake body never has, and never will, have anything to do with real WC.

Enjoy your WC mutation.



if your WCK is not from Red boat era WCK lineages, then you are right. your WCK is not the Red boat WCK.

We dont know what is real WCK, but we have a track record of WCK from 1850 to today interm of lineages and art. those are facts and more and more evidence will surface in the future.

[WC1277]

Okaaaay lets move on, Ving tsun is dependent on angling and movement to work. Like the weapons we use, we too need to change positions and counter attack, etc... a basic pole set is static to learn the alignment of the pole before we start to move and angle to attacks and counter, etc....you cant stand still in a basic stance and expect to create dynamic force using momentum of the body in motion.Or learn to recover errors of the same or take advantage of others errors unless...you move around, like fighters do outside their living rooms.

SLT, second and third parts, create hip rotation, if ever so slightly, when done correctly. This is due to your center of gravity "attached" to the floor developed in the first part. The hand movements come from the ground, not vice versa. Chum kiu is an extension of this movement exaggerated. Going "straight" into an opponent with this "structure" instead of angling creates a 'ball in the water' dynamic. The ball spins when you try to push it under water unless you're directly center on it. The only way to counter a good WC fighter that comes "straight" into you is to connect to their center of gravity. This is the point of SLT. The "little idea", that is the foundation of everything else. All you're doing when angling is reverse chasing. You're 'chasing' the body in response to the arms. That's still chasing. Using Chum kiu instead as a response system, like the ball in the water, will completely change the result. WC is incredibly simple in concept, yet extremely difficult to master. But I'd rather pursue the actual 'truth' of the system and struggle for years in "fights" as I try to perfect it, than take a shortcut and convulute it for the short term of impressing my friends.

[Ozzy Dave]

The above is a very general view. Which get people into seem understand but confuse state. As in pseudo zen talking of everything is zen but none understand the zen teaching.

However, if one Really develop an art , one will know yang taiji is not Chen taiji is not wu taiji, they are different and not the same, baji and Xing yi is not the same, ...etc

Siu Lin tau practice of WCK is very specific . It doesnt do those taiji rotate hip...ect, it doesnt do the forward stance. Siu lin tau capture the centerline at every move, taiji set don't do that way, baji, xingyi don't do that way, yi chuan doesn't do that way.

No, my statement is quite specific - I'm merely saying that the gung fa of any martial art or stream within a martial art family will support its strategy for application.

To use your Tai Ji analogy - Chen is of course different from Yang, Wu, etc as it focuses on na (seizing, joint-locking) more than the others and therefore will have a different "body of the art".

Form after all should follow function.

Where martial arts will be similar is where their strategies intersect, much like the concurrent evolution of the axe or wheel in different human populations around the world.

Dave

[Hendrik]

No, my statement is quite specific - I'm merely saying that the gung fa of any martial art or stream within a martial art family will support its strategy for application.

To use your Tai Ji analogy - Chen is of course different from Yang, Wu, etc as it focuses on na (seizing, joint-locking) more than the others and therefore will have a different "body of the art".

Form after all should follow function.

Where martial arts will be similar is where their strategies intersect, much like the concurrent evolution of the axe or wheel in different human populations around the world.

Dave

Great!



Imho,
Chen, Yang , Wu way of handling jin also different due to different type of engine development .

WCK core in using center guarding center or center line capture momentum, due to this unique type of core, it has both a different body of the art and different application strategy compare with all the taiji lineage's. Thus, the way of using Jin is not the same.

[imperialtaichi]

Since you claim to be a wcner, Are you open minded enough to practice siu Lin tau set and let the set speak for itself?

If not, what are you practice? Wing Chum or something else?

Sorry Hendrik, I wasn't talking to you. I was responding to Kev's thread. Did I accidentally offend you by making sense?

Thank you for paying attention to my posts.

[k gledhill]

SLT, second and third parts, create hip rotation, if ever so slightly, when done correctly. This is due to your center of gravity "attached" to the floor developed in the first part. The hand movements come from the ground, not vice versa. Chum kiu is an extension of this movement exaggerated. Going "straight" into an opponent with this "structure" instead of angling creates a 'ball in the water' dynamic. The ball spins when you try to push it under water unless you're directly center on it. The only way to counter a good WC fighter that comes "straight" into you is to connect to their center of gravity. This is the point of SLT. The "little idea", that is the foundation of everything else. All you're doing when angling is reverse chasing. You're 'chasing' the body in response to the arms. That's still chasing. Using Chum kiu instead as a response system, like the ball in the water, will completely change the result. WC is incredibly simple in concept, yet extremely difficult to master. But I'd rather pursue the actual 'truth' of the system and struggle for years in "fights" as I try to perfect it, than take a shortcut and convulute it for the short term of impressing my friends.

Bollocks....

[WC1277]

Bollocks....

You felt the concept in action years ago being escorted outside. I don't know why you can't believe this or think it's more complex than this in application.

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion, both Kev and WC1277 are correct.

At the end of the day, different methods suit different people. As long as it works, it's good Wing Chun.

TCMA is often like a Chinese feast. Instead of having to eat what when and how much the chef serves in Western cuisine; as Chinese we just pick what we like on the table in any order we like and as much as we like. :D

[GlennR]

In my opinion, both Kev and WC1277 are correct.

At the end of the day, different methods suit different people. As long as it works, it's good Wing Chun.

TCMA is often like a Chinese feast. Instead of having to eat what when and how much the chef serves in Western cuisine; as Chinese we just pick what we like on the table in any order we like and as much as we like. :D

Nice analogy John.

Seems some folks just think its their way or the highway ;)

[k gledhill]

You felt the concept in action years ago being escorted outside. I don't know why you can't believe this or think it's more complex than this in application.

Your confusing SLT alone, and slt in motion aka chum kil added to make it function with dynamics, ballistics...lets not get into story telling again.

[k gledhill]

In my opinion, both Kev and WC1277 are correct.

At the end of the day, different methods suit different people. As long as it works, it's good Wing Chun.

TCMA is often like a Chinese feast. Instead of having to eat what when and how much the chef serves in Western cuisine; as Chinese we just pick what we like on the table in any order we like and as much as we like. :D


Nice analogy John.

Seems some folks just think its their way or the highway ;)

Ving Tsun is a definable skill. Making it into a subjective buffet/smorgasborg approach leaves the uninformed with a mix and match approach. Turning abstract concepts into confused applications. Perpetuating this idea simply allows any guy to pick up a book or video and assume he can make his vt what he wants, as long as he has abstract shapes in pictures to define him or he can con his students.

[imperialtaichi]

Ving Tsun is a definable skill. Making it into a subjective buffet/smorgasborg approach leaves the uninformed with a mix and match approach. Turning abstract concepts into confused applications. Perpetuating this idea simply allows any guy to pick up a book or video and assume he can make his vt what he wants, as long as he has abstract shapes in pictures to define him or he can con his students.

K, at the end of the day, arguing means nothing. Like everything else in life, it's the guy who remains standing that counts.

[k gledhill]

K, at the end of the day, arguing means nothing. Like everything else in life, it's the guy who remains standing that counts.

Yes, exactly, vt can be tested for this to check for arm chasing , off balanced execution in motion, etc...not rocket science we are talking about, slide rules at dawn.

[JPinAZ]

Okaaaay lets move on, Ving tsun is dependent on angling and movement to work. Like the weapons we use, we too need to change positions and counter attack, etc... a basic pole set is static to learn the alignment of the pole before we start to move and angle to attacks and counter, etc....you cant stand still in a basic stance and expect to create dynamic force using momentum of the body in motion.Or learn to recover errors of the same or take advantage of others errors unless...you move around, like fighters do outside their living rooms.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. If one understands the core principles of centerline and veiws of maximum efficiency, then the main goal for SNT level thinking would be to stand your ground and deal with the attack as it comes (loi lau) without having to step. If you can do this and dont need to use footwork, you dont - ie you only move when you HAVE to. Example, if someone throws a punch but I can redirect it without footowork thru proper understanding of timing, structure, positional advantage and leverage, we only needed to change our OPPONENT's position. This is WC at it's most efficient and this is what SNT teaches us. Of course, not everything works like this in a perfect world, which is why we have CK ;)

Because, if on a bridge has been made, you cannot deal with the energy on the bridge, that is when Chum Kiu gets involved and footwork is necessary.
Of course there are facing and matchig strategies that come into play at CK stage during Bai Jong, and this is where footwork will also come into play during pre-engagement, but in order for me to have any real sense of WC centerline, we must have a point of reference. This is our own position in space, and we can't have that if the first thing we do is start using footwork to engage.

[k gledhill]

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. If one understands the core principles of centerline and veiws of maximum efficiency, then the main goal for SNT level thinking would be to stand your ground and deal with the attack as it comes (loi lau) without having to step. If you can do this and dont need to use footwork, you dont - ie you only move when you HAVE to. Example, if someone throws a punch but I can redirect it without footowork thru proper understanding of timing, structure, positional advantage and leverage, we only needed to change our OPPONENT's position. This is WC at it's most efficient and this is what SNT teaches us. Of course, not everything works like this in a perfect world, which is why we have CK ;)

Because, if on a bridge has been made, you cannot deal with the energy on the bridge, that is when Chum Kiu gets involved and footwork is necessary.
Of course there are facing and matchig strategies that come into play at CK stage during Bai Jong, and this is where footwork will also come into play during pre-engagement, but in order for me to have any real sense of WC centerline, we must have a point of reference. This is our own position in space, and we can't have that if the first thing we do is start using footwork to engage.

No you're confused.

[Wayfaring]

No you're confused.

What a moronic comment. Obviously he's not confused, he is expressing how a family's lineage understands these concepts. The ideas are presented clearly and completely in what was stated.

If you have a different understanding then give everyone on the forum the respect to do likewise and explain it clearly and completely.

Otherwise STFU.

[Hendrik]

What a moronic comment. Obviously he's not confused, he is expressing how a family's lineage understands these concepts. The ideas are presented clearly and completely in what was stated.

If you have a different understanding then give everyone on the forum the respect to do likewise and explain it clearly and completely.

Otherwise STFU.

I totally agree with you.

[Robinhood]

No you're confused.

His description was pretty good, the only reason you should step is because you have not controlled your center by losing it, or you don't have a structure supported by the ground to be able be the main center both people rotate around.

If you are moving or stepping you are going around the other guys center line, which could work if he does not make the small rotation to follow you, which just means he is no good, otherwise you will be the guy at the disadvantage .

[JPinAZ]

What a moronic comment. Obviously he's not confused, he is expressing how a family's lineage understands these concepts. The ideas are presented clearly and completely in what was stated.

If you have a different understanding then give everyone on the forum the respect to do likewise and explain it clearly and completely.

Otherwise STFU.

Thanks for that :)
Careful though, or he may get his fragile ego hurt, take his toys and go home by deleting this thread too :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

His description was pretty good, the only reason you should step is because you have not controlled your center by losing it, or you don't have a structure supported by the ground to be able be the main center both people rotate around.

If you are moving or stepping you are going around the other guys center line, which could work if he does not make the small rotation to follow you, which just means he is no good, otherwise you will be the guy at the disadvantage .

There are three WCK major cores. direct, roundabout , and recovery of capture the center

All based on direct platform which is the development of siu nim tau.

As for roundabout, well, others an response it with direc or recovery . Who fast? The direct is fastest.

In the reality One cannot play in nba basket ball demanding no direct play but limit to roundabout or recovery.

And how to handle the direct center capturing where every inch and split of second counts? There is what siu nim tau is address.

[kentchang]

Yik Kam, an unknown junior actor went to study Omei 12 palms exercises and Fukien white crane boxing. Later he mixed them up and called his art Yik Kam SLT (One long form). Here are the questions for Hendrik below.

Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were the most senior wing chun practitioners of the Red Boat Opera at that time. Evidently they came before Yik Kam's time. That presents a very important question, who was really practicing genuine wck at that time? Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were very well known for their wck in public. Where was the junior Yik Kam and what was he doing at that time? Was he still a student of some unknown Omei teacher? What's the name of the Omei teacher? So far, what people see of Yik Kam's SLT, is not impressive. There is not enough data or information to support your claim that Yik Kam’s art is the original wck? If you truly want to promote and preserve Yik Kam's art, then you should make it clear to the public that the Yik Kam SLT was from Omie, therefore, it should be called Omie SLT (one long Omie exercise form) different than the SLT/CK/BJ from all other wing chun lineages. Once that's clear to the public,that will help you to find some peace within yourself. Now, you don't have to repeat your endless "1850, Omie, White Crane and SLT (one long little exercise form originally from Omie 12 palms) "

[k gledhill]

What a moronic comment. Obviously he's not confused, he is expressing how a family's lineage understands these concepts. The ideas are presented clearly and completely in what was stated.

If you have a different understanding then give everyone on the forum the respect to do likewise and explain it clearly and completely.

Otherwise STFU.


I totally agree with you.


His description was pretty good, the only reason you should step is because you have not controlled your center by losing it, or you don't have a structure supported by the ground to be able be the main center both people rotate around.

If you are moving or stepping you are going around the other guys center line, which could work if he does not make the small rotation to follow you, which just means he is no good, otherwise you will be the guy at the disadvantage .


Thanks for that :)
Careful though, or he may get his fragile ego hurt, take his toys and go home by deleting this thread too :rolleyes:

I did make a more detailed explanation, but realized it would be wasted typing, so deleted BEFORE I posted it, a reason I tend to delete posts, on reflection I decide its wasted effort.....'nuff to give my personal opinion as I like guys.

[Robinhood]

I did make a more detailed explanation, but realized it would be wasted typing, so deleted BEFORE I posted it, a reason I tend to delete posts, on reflection I decide its wasted effort.....'nuff to give my personal opinion as I like guys.

Well, how noble of you.

Maybe a better reason is your stuff is based on something other than WC theory and you know that your explanation does not hold water.

Just running around being faster and stronger than someone else does not mean you are practicing an art based on efficiency .

Two guys trying to lap Sao on each other is not application on art, only training exercise against another wc guy.

[k gledhill]

Well, how noble of you.

Maybe a better reason is your stuff is based on something other than WC theory and you know that your explanation does not hold water.

Just running around being faster and stronger than someone else does not mean you are practicing an art based on efficiency .

Two guys trying to lap Sao on each other is not application on art, only training exercise against another wc guy.

Noble, me, you shouldn't have ;)

More like nobody will understand, Graham knows what I mean. Abstract concepts cannot be typed, they have to be experienced to understand the simplicity.
Just running around ?
Yes Laap sao is a conditioning drill, CONDITIONING our punching so it is mindless...a concept guys might like Wu Shin....the Japanese say Mushin, mindless execution.
Certain techniques of VT allow this mindless intercepting ability, further to this idea is our conditioning certain arm angles, elbow positions that back up this idea....the less we think about our actions the more they become like reflex reactions, faster...

[Wayfaring]

I did make a more detailed explanation, but realized it would be wasted typing, so deleted BEFORE I posted it, a reason I tend to delete posts, on reflection I decide its wasted effort.....'nuff to give my personal opinion as I like guys.

on reflection you decide its wasted effort. what a load. then don't post anything at all.

yes its hard to explain concepts over the internet. but people get it. i'm kind of getting what you're saying about snt and ck and dependencies for fighting.

[k gledhill]

on reflection you decide its wasted effort. what a load. then don't post anything at all.

yes its hard to explain concepts over the internet. but people get it. i'm kind of getting what you're saying about snt and ck and dependencies for fighting.

Its tuff, post, delete ?? when the threads go south I like to eject, like I do in fighting and start again .

Dynamics are present in the chum kil, not applications... turning on the spot back and forth, hips and vertical axis alignment.... heels like Eiffel tower , not leaning tower of Pizza. Simply a balance and force generating module. Stepping in Chum kil is normally seen as a stage of 1-2-3 again...try 1 step bong wu finish..in 1 beat. Like Jack dempseys fall away punch, he used bodyweight , momentum in a controlled burst to generate force...same ideas. Facing at various angles, speed of bong rotation to create kinetic force...

Then have a guy put a fist in your face and try to step bong wu and use the bong like a pak sao to slap it out of the way, sideways, not forwards. turn the guy.


It takes time to type and retype then reread and retype to even try to make sense...ergo delete or short response, I know isnt fair but ...

[Robinhood]

Noble, me, you shouldn't have ;)

More like nobody will understand, Graham knows what I mean. Abstract concepts cannot be typed, they have to be experienced to understand the simplicity.
Just running around ?
Yes Laap sao is a conditioning drill, CONDITIONING our punching so it is mindless...a concept guys might like Wu Shin....the Japanese say Mushin, mindless execution.
Certain techniques of VT allow this mindless intercepting ability, further to this idea is our conditioning certain arm angles, elbow positions that back up this idea....the less we think about our actions the more they become like reflex reactions, faster...

Your mindless abilities don't won't work when your off balance or jammed. You guys just stand in front of each other at set distance and think this is it, all staged and set to your wc parameters.

[k gledhill]

Your mindless abilities don't won't work when your off balance or jammed. You guys just stand in front of each other at set distance and think this is it, all staged and set to your wc parameters.

Of course. We are drilling certain ideas at various stages, some drills are stationary because the arms alignment can go off if stepping and angling is added. Its modular in design. We string modules together during chi-sao. Gor sao is a random exchange without forewarning and modularization going on, its to make the partners react/act mindlessly and see errors to go slower on later in isolated modules...

Fighting is not chi-sao.

[Robinhood]

Of course. We are drilling certain ideas at various stages, some drills are stationary because the arms alignment can go off if stepping and angling is added. Its modular in design. We string modules together during chi-sao. Gor sao is a random exchange without forewarning and modularization going on, its to make the partners react/act mindlessly and see errors to go slower on later in isolated modules...

Fighting is not chi-sao.

Your missing the point, somethings just need to be experenced.

See Ya

[Robinhood]

Its tuff, post, delete ?? when the threads go south I like to eject, like I do in fighting and start again .

Dynamics are present in the chum kil, not applications... turning on the spot back and forth, hips and vertical axis alignment.... heels like Eiffel tower , not leaning tower of Pizza. Simply a balance and force generating module. Stepping in Chum kil is normally seen as a stage of 1-2-3 again...try 1 step bong wu finish..in 1 beat. Like Jack dempseys fall away punch, he used bodyweight , momentum in a controlled burst to generate force...same ideas. Facing at various angles, speed of bong rotation to create kinetic force...

Then have a guy put a fist in your face and try to step bong wu and use the bong like a pak sao to slap it out of the way, sideways, not forwards. turn the guy.


It takes time to type and retype then reread and retype to even try to make sense...ergo delete or short response, I know isnt fair but ...

Your still just talking about body level movements, no need, does not matter.

[desertwingchun2]

Yik Kam, an unknown junior actor went to study Omei 12 palms exercises and Fukien white crane boxing. Later he mixed them up and called his art Yik Kam SLT (One long form). Here are the questions for Hendrik below.

Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were the most senior wing chun practitioners of the Red Boat Opera at that time. Evidently they came before Yik Kam's time. That presents a very important question, who was really practicing genuine wck at that time? Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were very well known for their wck in public. Where was the junior Yik Kam and what was he doing at that time? Was he still a student of some unknown Omei teacher? What's the name of the Omei teacher? So far, what people see of Yik Kam's SLT, is not impressive. There is not enough data or information to support your claim that Yik Kam’s art is the original wck? If you truly want to promote and preserve Yik Kam's art, then you should make it clear to the public that the Yik Kam SLT was from Omie, therefore, it should be called Omie SLT (one long Omie exercise form) different than the SLT/CK/BJ from all other wing chun lineages. Once that's clear to the public,that will help you to find some peace within yourself. Now, you don't have to repeat your endless "1850, Omie, White Crane and SLT (one long little exercise form originally from Omie 12 palms) "

Interesting to note Hendrick has tied himself to Snake Crane WC and claims many similarities. The biggest problem is his one long set only exists in Cho Ga WC whose WC comes from Yik Kam. All other families of WC have three sets including Snake Crane. Snake Crane Master says his WC always has three sets from Dai Fa Min Kam.

The Red Boat Ancestor for Snake Crane WC is Dai Fa Min Kam. Dai Fa Min Kam or Sun Kam taught three sets to Law Tiu Wen. However he taught only one set to Fung Siu Ching. That set being Sap Yat Kuen.

Snake Crane Master has said his WC is very similar to Yuen Kay San WC. Interesting to know is Yuen Kay San learned from both Fung Siu Ching and Fok Bo Chuen. Fok Bo Chuen taught three sets. Fok Bo Chuen learned his WC from Wong Wah Bo and Dai Fa Min Kam.

So no matter how you look at it the three set WC is taught by all senior members of the red boat era. The only one with one long set is the junior player Yik Kam.

I think what Yik Kam left to the Cho Family is very important history. But it is not the original face of wing chun. And as handjob likes to say - these are facts.

It would be interesting to research why Dai Fa Min Kam "Sun Kam" taught one curriculum to Fung Siu Ching and another to Law Tiu Wen. And also where or how he learned both curriculum. This would be very good indeed.

[Hendrik]

Interesting to note Hendrick has tied himself to Snake Crane WC and claims many similarities. The biggest problem is his one long set only exists in Cho Ga WC whose WC comes from Yik Kam. All other families of WC have three sets including Snake Crane. Snake Crane Master says his WC always has three sets from Dai Fa Min Kam.

The Red Boat Ancestor for Snake Crane WC is Dai Fa Min Kam. Dai Fa Min Kam or Sun Kam taught three sets to Law Tiu Wen. However he taught only one set to Fung Siu Ching. That set being Sap Yat Kuen.

Snake Crane Master has said his WC is very similar to Yuen Kay San WC. Interesting to know is Yuen Kay San learned from both Fung Siu Ching and Fok Bo Chuen. Fok Bo Chuen taught three sets. Fok Bo Chuen learned his WC from Wong Wah Bo and Dai Fa Min Kam.

So no matter how you look at it the three set WC is taught by all senior members of the red boat era. The only one with one long set is the junior player Yik Kam.

I think what Yik Kam left to the Cho Family is very important history. But it is not the original face of wing chun. And as handjob likes to say - these are facts.

It would be interesting to research why Dai Fa Min Kam "Sun Kam" taught one curriculum to Fung Siu Ching and another to Law Tiu Wen. And also where or how he learned both curriculum. This would be very good indeed.



The kuen kuit of the both families and the sets are there anyone can go investigate. I encourage open research on the technology, get to the core of 1850 wing Chun, get the fact, not his-story.

Btw, Hawkin Cheung just recently posted YouTube on snake body of WCK. So, at least three traceable wck lineages in history and tehnology now based on snake body crane limbs.

Start 5.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2yzbvNB8zE


Also,

snake crane wing Chun lineage inherit sets very similar with YKS however snake crane wingchun also inherit the siu nim tau kuit which YKS doesn't inherit.

Snake crane wing Chun kuit express the big picture and yik kam kuit full in the details. We now know by evidence that wck is a long set system until it is split into three sets system.

Traceable technology express themself, one needs only to pull the curtain to let the facts shown.

[desertwingchun2]

The kuen kuit of the both families and the sets are there anyone can go investigate. I encourage open research on the technology, get to the core of 1850 wing Chun, get the fact, not his-story.

Btw, Hawkin Cheung just recently posted YouTube on snake body of WCK. So, at least three traceable wck lineages in history and tehnology now based on snake body crane limbs.

Start 5.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2yzbvNB8zE


Also,

snake crane wing Chun lineage inherit sets very similar with YKS however snake crane wingchun also inherit the siu nim tau kuit which YKS doesn't inherit.

Snake crane wing Chun kuit express the big picture and yik kam kuit full in the details. We now know by evidence that wck is a long set system until it is split into three sets system.

Traceable technology express themself, one needs only to pull the curtain to let the facts shown.

Blah Blah Blah .... It is easy to see why Snake Crane and Yuen Kay San are similar. Read my post. But you still cannot show any family or player except Yik Kam who has one long set.

This is fact.

It is also fact no one dispute Snake Crane WC. Don't hide behind their family history. You are not in their family. You are a cling on or hang around at best.

[Hendrik]

Blah Blah Blah .... It is easy to see why Snake Crane and Yuen Kay San are similar. Read my post. But you still cannot show any family or player except Yik Kam who has one long set.

This is fact.

It is also fact no one dispute Snake Crane WC. Don't hide behind their family history. You are not in their family. You are a cling on or hang around at best.


You are free to have your opinion.

There are people here from Leung jan lineage's such as late Danny can tell you about the one set ....


If you like to use the one set three sets as argument , don't waste time, lots of things has been sort out. We know what it is since 1850. One set or three sets they all legitimate WCK and traceable. Fujian white crane and emei snake is unavoidable.

[desertwingchun2]

You are free to have your opinion.

There are people here from Leung jan lineage's such as late Danny can tell you about the one set ....

GM Leung Jan did many great things for WC. We all know who taught him WC. He was taught and taught three sets.



One set or three sets they all legitimate WCK and traceable. Fujian white crane and emei snake is unavoidable.

You are also free to your opinion.

BTW Snake Crane is from Shaolin. In their family history it is said their great ancestor is Jee Shin and Ng Mui.

Nowhere in their history do they say Fujian White Crane or Ermei Snake Ermie Zhong or any other misinformation you have been spouting for years.

Jee Shin and Ng Mui make since. Sun Kam has lineage to this day that can prove this combination from one ancestor.

Go back to your own head where your drivel makes sense. If you can ever do better than hitting a yoga ball or talking a good game I would love to see it. I will be ever so surprised if you ever accepted to see anyone face to face who wants to experience your Yik Kam WC. BTW I am glad you distance yourself from the Cho Ga WC family. You have been doing them a disservice for years.

[Hendrik]

GM Leung Jan did many great things for WC. We all know who taught him WC. He was taught and taught three sets.




You are also free to your opinion.

BTW Snake Crane is from Shaolin. In their family history it is said their great ancestor is Jee Shin and Ng Mui.

Nowhere in their history do they say Fujian White Crane or Ermei Snake Ermie Zhong or any other misinformation you have been spouting for years.

Jee Shin and Ng Mui make since. Sun Kam has lineage to this day that can prove this combination from one ancestor.

Go back to your own head where your drivel makes sense. If you can ever do better than hitting a yoga ball or talking a good game I would love to see it. I will be ever so surprised if you ever accepted to see anyone face to face who wants to experience your Yik Kam WC. BTW I am glad you distance yourself from the Cho Ga WC family. You have been doing them a disservice for years.


Thank you for your opnions, attached is facts released in the present issue of New Martial Hero magazine. that way you have no need to keep making your His-story about me or Red Boat WCK history as you are a creative His-story maker.

i certainly not interested in your view and your his-story making. So, here on, will not response to your fantasy. sorry.

also, notice that these publications in the New Martial Hero magazine is Co authors, thus, there are plenty of sifus around the world know and share the Red boat era WCK. Certainly, you are not invite to the club. sorry.

[desertwingchun2]

Thank you for your opnions, attached is facts released in the present issue of New Martial Hero magazine. that way you have no need to keep making your His-story about me as you are a His-story maker.

i certainly not interested in your view and your his-story making. So, here on, will not response to your fantasy. sorry.

also, notice that these publications in the New Martial Hero magazine is Co authors, thus, there are plenty of sifus around the world know and share the Red boat era WCK. Certainly, you are not invite to the club. sorry.

Avoid and redirect. Real good handjob. Nothing I posted today is anything I made up like you imply. Nice try. When you have nothing go to, go to anything. Juvenile and bush league at best.

Glad to see you surround yourself with accomplished people over the internet. I hope it makes you feel good and lets you hide from your insecurities and mediocrity.

Take your ball and go home. And I dont believe you will not respond to me. You have said that for ten years and here we are still. You love this stuff. You are addicted to it. The attention you get gives you satisfaction in some weird way you feel attached to something bigger than you. And that my friend is about as sad as your Wing Chun skill set.

[kentchang]

Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai and Dai Fa Min Kam were the most senior wing chun practitioners of the Red Boat Opera at that time. Evidently they came before Yik Kam's time. That presents a very important question, how many of these guys were really practicing genuine wck at that time? Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were very well known for their wck in public. Dai Fa Min Kam was less known but people still could find three WC forms in his school. Where was this unknown junior member Yik Kam and what was he doing at that time? Was he still a student under some unknown Omei teacher? What's the name of this Omei teacher and who was the White Crane teacher Yik Kam learned from? I think these are fair questions for Hendrik to answer. Copying and pasting bits and pieces of others unverified material does not justify his claims to be a WC researcher.