The Pope resigns - who here should take over?

[GeneChing]

OK, our Catholic members must forgive me for this (take a stab at Buddha if you like for revenge) and of course, we're speaking hypothetically, but who amongst our members would make a good pope?

I nominate sanjuro_ronin. He's been winning the photo post battles here lately. He's on a roll. :p


A Statement Rocks Rome, Then Sends Shockwaves Around the World (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/world/europe/pope-benedict-xvi-says-he-will-retire.html?hp&_r=0)
By RACHEL DONADIO and NICHOLAS KULISH
Published: February 11, 2013


VATICAN CITY — The decision, delivered in Latin and in unemotional tones by Pope Benedict XVI to a gathering of cardinals on Monday, came “like a bolt out of the blue,” one of the participants said, and it soon ricocheted around the world.

During what was supposed to be a routine meeting to discuss the canonization of three potential saints, Benedict read a statement that said, in part, that after examining his conscience “before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise” of leading the world’s one billion Roman Catholics. He was resigning on Feb. 28, he said, becoming the first pope to do so in six centuries.

“In today’s world,” Benedict said in his announcement, “subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the bark of St. Peter and proclaim the gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me.”

Within minutes, #Pontifexit was trending on Twitter. Later, during an evening thunderstorm, a lightning bolt struck the dome of St. Peter’s, though the meaning, if any, was not immediately clear.

In recent months, Benedict, 85, had been showing signs of age. He often seemed tired and even appeared to doze off during Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, after being taken to the altar of Saint Peter’s on a wheeled platform. But few expected the pope to resign so suddenly, even though he had said in the past that he would consider the option.

“The pope took us by surprise,” said the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, expounding on one of the most dramatic moments in centuries of Vatican history. He appeared at a hastily called news conference on Monday, where he sat alone at a table, with an unopened bottle of mineral water and a dog-eared copy of a Canon Law guide before him.

Father Lombardi said the pope did not display strong emotions as he made his announcement, but spoke with “great dignity, great concentration and great understanding of the significance of the moment.”

In a statement, President Obama recalled meeting with Benedict in 2009. “I have appreciated our work together over these last four years,” the president said. “The church plays a critical role in the United States and the world, and I wish the best to those who will soon gather to choose His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI’s successor.”

Prime Minister Mario Monti of Italy called Benedict’s decision “immense and unexpected.”

More than a few observers were struck that such a traditionalist as Benedict would make such an unconventional exit. “A departure that is paradoxically modern for a pope who was so conservative,” said Christian Terras, the founder and executive editor of Golias, a religious review near Lyon, France, that has been critical of the Catholic Church.

Some said that Benedict’s decision to step down was one of the most dramatic acts in the history of the papacy. “This decision has been the only great reform of Benedict, and at the same time it is a revolutionary step for the Catholic Church,” said Marco Politi, a Vatican expert and author of a book on Benedict’s papacy. While in past centuries, popes had stepped down over political struggles, Mr. Politi said, “this is a clear decision and a free decision made by the pope that will set an example also for the future, setting a limit for the pontificate.”

Benedict’s 89-year-old brother, the Rev. Georg Ratzinger, said that the pope’s weakening health had led him to step down. “His age was taking its toll,” Father Ratzinger told the German news agency dpa on Monday, adding that he had been aware of his brother’s plan for several months.

That the resignation was long in the planning was confirmed by Giovanni Maria Vian, the editor of the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, who wrote on Monday that the pope’s decision “was taken many months ago,” after his trip to Mexico and Cuba in March 2012, “and kept with a reserve that no one could violate.”

Father Lombardi said that the pope would retire first to his summer residence in Castel Gandolfo, in the hills outside Rome, and later to a monastery in Vatican City.

Benedict, the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was elected on April 19, 2005. At the time, Benedict was a popular choice within the college of 115 cardinals who chose him as a man who shared — and at times went beyond — the conservative theology of his predecessor and mentor, John Paul II, and seemed ready to take over the job after serving beside him for more than two decades.

The church’s 265th pope, Benedict was the first German to hold the title in half a millennium, and his election was a milestone toward Germany’s spiritual renewal 60 years after World War II and the Holocaust. At 78, he was also the oldest pope to be elected since 1730.

But Benedict was seen as a weak manager, and his papacy was troubled by debilitating scandals, most recently when his butler was convicted by a Vatican court in October of aggravated theft after he admitted stealing confidential documents, many of which wound up in a tell-all book that showed behind-the-scenes Vatican intrigue.

Benedict “centered his papacy on giving faith to Christians, focusing on the essence of what it means to be a Christian, and he managed to do it in spite of the fact that his communicative capacities weren’t so brilliant,” Sandro Magister, a Vatican expert, said. “Most common people, I don’t mean intellectuals, saw him as a disinterested man who spent all his life for a high cause, which was to revive the faith.”

At first blush, criticism was muted for a pope with a controversial term, marred by child-abuse scandals and growing discord over conservative stances on issues like divorce and women in the clergy.

Hans Küng, a theologian and former colleague of Benedict’s who is now one of his most articulate critics, called his decision to step down “understandable for many reasons,” according to the dpa news service, but added that so many conservative cardinals had been named during his tenure, it would be difficult to find someone “who could lead the church out of its multifaceted crisis.”

The strongest criticism came from the victims of clerical sexual abuse, who faulted Benedict for failing to take stronger steps or, in some eyes, any steps at all.

“This pope had a great opportunity to finally address the decades of abuse in the church, but at the end of the day he did nothing but promise everything and in the end he ultimately delivered nothing,” John Kelly, of the support group Survivors of Child Abuse, told Agence France-Presse.

Tom Cronin of Irish Survivors of Institutional Abuse International said that while age and infirmity were given as reasons for the pope’s resignation, he believed the continuing clerical abuse scandal had played a part.

“I don’t think he has been able to deal with it, and it was probably the straw that broke his back,” Mr. Cronin said. “Every day we still get revelations about this priest or that bishop, and maybe he wasn’t young enough to confront it and perhaps, too, he hasn’t been getting the right advice. Whatever the reason, the church hierarchy just hasn’t faced up to the atrocities and their denials and inaction continue to damage them.”

In Rome, where souvenir shops often carry more postcards of John Paul than of Benedict, news of Benedict’s resignation was met with surprise and some sadness. “Anyone could tell that he was old and sick, and that such a complicated situation like the one he has to face is a lot, but I had never heard that a pope could quit,” said Simonetta Piersanti, 52, a cleaning woman in a residence run by nuns.

She mentioned a common Roman saying, “When a pope dies, they just elect another,” which captures the lack of excitement with which Italians greet historic events. “We’ll have to do it even without the death part,” she added.

[MasterKiller]

First of all, everyone, EVERYONE, knows Catholic priests prefer pics like this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wBJC9wfky8A/S7pDleepTTI/AAAAAAAAABc/AVtK9mrH5as/s1600/cycle+shorts.jpg



Granted, those boys are a little 'mature' for most Catholic tastes, nonetheless...

[GeneChing]

Reposting a pic, especially that one, incurs a demerit.

follow the link if you must see it again


Granted, those boys are a little 'mature' for most Catholic tastes, nonetheless... So are you nominating bawang or what?

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK, our Catholic members must forgive me for this (take a stab at Buddha if you like for revenge) and of course, we're speaking hypothetically, but who amongst our members would make a good pope?

I nominate sanjuro_ronin. He's been winning the photo post battles here lately. He's on a roll. :p

LOL !
I am catholic but not roman catholic so I don't think that would go over very well, LMAO !!

I thing you guys misunderstood, he didn't resign, he just gave it up for Lent.
:D

[Lucas]

Bawang would make a great Pope. He would be best friend with Jesus and vanquish the vatican enemies in a manliness fashion. Plus he will get many chances to make romance by force.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think its time for a female pope:
http://images.halloweencostumes.com/sexy-lace-up-nun-zoom.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma99zjDQgW1rgqyf3o1_500.jpg

[GeneChing]

I was just about to say 'See? Let sanjuro_ronin be pope!" but then I thought, hmm, if I hold out a little more, maybe he'll post some more pix, and I imagine there's a lot of Catholic naughty hotties like that. Extra points if someone can find a Catholic naughty hottie with a sword (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41007).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sexy nuns, converting heathens one ******* at a time !
http://s3.amazonaws.com/ink_prod/photos/0155/9253/sexynun_large.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was just about to say 'See? Let sanjuro_ronin be pope!" but then I thought, hmm, if I hold out a little more, maybe he'll post some more pix, and I imagine there's a lot of Catholic naughty hotties like that. Extra points if someone can find a Catholic naughty hottie with a sword (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41007).

http://www.birthdayinabox.com/s7/large/RM4350

[Syn7]

I dunno, I don't think priests are really necessary anymore. There are more than enough scholars out there to keep the books alive. If you believe the bible, anyone can commune with god and middle men are simply not needed. All the social constructs used in the past to control could just evaporate and the soul of the theology would be just fine.

[GeneChing]

http://www.birthdayinabox.com/s7/large/RM4350

I nominate sanjuro_ronin. He's been winning the photo post battles here lately. He's on a roll. :p
Can I call them or what? :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dunno, I don't think priests are really necessary anymore. There are more than enough scholars out there to keep the books alive. If you believe the bible, anyone can commune with god and middle men are simply not needed. All the social constructs used in the past to control could just evaporate and the soul of the theology would be just fine.

I tend to agree BUT I also know that for many, they need a tangible person to go to and they like the fellowship" aspect of churchgoing.
U don't think we need ( ever needed really) a hierarchy and organization per say.
Not every is apt to learn and research for themselves, the majority like to be taught rather than learn.

[jdhowland]

I think the next roman catholic pope should be jewish. It might remind people that "christianity" was not a new religion but a revitalization movement.


Any volunteers?



.

[Lucas]

Sanjuro is a pic-fu beast!

[Syn7]

I tend to agree BUT I also know that for many, they need a tangible person to go to and they like the fellowship" aspect of churchgoing.
U don't think we need ( ever needed really) a hierarchy and organization per say.
Not every is apt to learn and research for themselves, the majority like to be taught rather than learn.

Yeah but couldnt you just have a bible group that serves the community and have everyone on equal footing and those who need it can just find a sponsor?

See, it's not the spirituality that really annoys me, it's the institution. I'm a firm believe that such an institution is not likely to change what it needs to change to not be corrupt and pretty much in many ways a pyramid scam.

I just don't think the good outweighs the bad and I also believe that everything good about it could be done by anyone with the resources.


I didn't say "ever needed". That is debatable, I'll give you that. But today, no, not needed. I have no issue with people coming together to discuss an interest. I have no issue with the natural leaders and intellectuals in said group to help those who maybe need that helping hand to follow along. I have no issue with people taking on the role of "father" of the group in that they are there to listen and give advice. It's the large scale institution I have issue with. Like you said, the hierarchy.

The whole american style breakaways make more sense to me. Not complete sense, but more sense. But even they have adapted messed up hierarchies. I do have to say though... the isolation of some of these groups have created and harboured some pretty crazy fringe elements. But that is just a reality of life, jerks and nutbags will always find a reason. Religion or not.

What really bothers me is the insinuation that you have to go through your priest. It doesn't actually come right out and say that anywhere in the books(maybe the old test, but its a much diff context)

I can't debate the details with you because you are way above my paygrade in that respect, but do you see where I'm coming from?

For the record, I grew up Catholic, I am baptized, confirmed, all that fun stuff. I just grew out of it I guess. I'm a scientist at heart and I am basically a theological non-cognitivist. When I reach the end of my understanding, I don't make leaps like that. I have hypotheses, but not actual theories.

[David Jamieson]

I think they should stop putting old white men in that chair and do a switch up.
Because hey, if they don't want a black, asian or hispanic to be pope, then they should stop sending missionaries there all the time.

[Syn7]

I think they should stop putting old white men in that chair and do a switch up.
Because hey, if they don't want a black, asian or hispanic to be pope, then they should stop sending missionaries there all the time.

The African looks like a contender, in the non european weight class anyways. I doubt the next pope will not be european though.

[GeneChing]

For the record, I grew up Catholic, I am baptized, confirmed, all that fun stuff. That AND 80 head stitches before age 10....daaaaaaaaaaaaang. No wonder you fit in so well around here.
;)


Because hey, if they don't want a black, asian or hispanic to be pope, then they should stop sending missionaries there all the time. Good one, DJ. LOL for realz.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/184289_539286882759877_1320954999_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/73491_10152544022225203_1726597098_n.jpg
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z70/lest_/pope_cartman.png

[Kellen Bassette]

Cartman wins. The Imaginationland trilogy..pure gold.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah but couldnt you just have a bible group that serves the community and have everyone on equal footing and those who need it can just find a sponsor?

See, it's not the spirituality that really annoys me, it's the institution. I'm a firm believe that such an institution is not likely to change what it needs to change to not be corrupt and pretty much in many ways a pyramid scam.

I just don't think the good outweighs the bad and I also believe that everything good about it could be done by anyone with the resources.


I didn't say "ever needed". That is debatable, I'll give you that. But today, no, not needed. I have no issue with people coming together to discuss an interest. I have no issue with the natural leaders and intellectuals in said group to help those who maybe need that helping hand to follow along. I have no issue with people taking on the role of "father" of the group in that they are there to listen and give advice. It's the large scale institution I have issue with. Like you said, the hierarchy.

The whole american style breakaways make more sense to me. Not complete sense, but more sense. But even they have adapted messed up hierarchies. I do have to say though... the isolation of some of these groups have created and harboured some pretty crazy fringe elements. But that is just a reality of life, jerks and nutbags will always find a reason. Religion or not.

What really bothers me is the insinuation that you have to go through your priest. It doesn't actually come right out and say that anywhere in the books(maybe the old test, but its a much diff context)

I can't debate the details with you because you are way above my paygrade in that respect, but do you see where I'm coming from?

For the record, I grew up Catholic, I am baptized, confirmed, all that fun stuff. I just grew out of it I guess. I'm a scientist at heart and I am basically a theological non-cognitivist. When I reach the end of my understanding, I don't make leaps like that. I have hypotheses, but not actual theories.

You are not going to get any arguments from me dude.
Religious hierarchy, ie: Organized religion, has more cons than pros, lots more.
Funny thing is that, historically, that wasn't the case with Christianity untill it became the official religion of Rome and "had" to become organized.
In that regards they emulated the religion that they shared the strongest roots with, Judaism and basically created their own version of the Sanhedrin and High priest, complete with ceremonial garbs and all.
Priests were simply suppose to be there to serve the Church, the church being the body of ALL believers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having been involved with people escaping from cults AND with fundamentalists religions/groups, I have realized they they fill a "need" or a "void" and they cater to/attract a certain personality type.
People that want to be told what IS.
People that want an "step-bystep" program for their salvation, "works" based salvation really.
People that want/need to feel apart from others ( better is another word), people that want to think they have the REAL God and only they are right.
I have noticed that when these people do get out of a cult or a "militant religion" they typically become "militant atheists".
One extreme to the other.

[Syn7]

Having been involved with people escaping from cults AND with fundamentalists religions/groups, I have realized they they fill a "need" or a "void" and they cater to/attract a certain personality type.
People that want to be told what IS.
People that want an "step-bystep" program for their salvation, "works" based salvation really.
People that want/need to feel apart from others ( better is another word), people that want to think they have the REAL God and only they are right.
I have noticed that when these people do get out of a cult or a "militant religion" they typically become "militant atheists".
One extreme to the other.

It's a common weakness manifesting in many many unfortunate ways.

To me atheism is messed up. So you say you do NOT believe anything like that and then you go and use that lack of belief as a label. If you don't believe any of that, why use it to define yourself? Why give so much credit to theists?

Me, I'm at the point where I won't even debate anything that isn't properly defined. I just don't have that in me. I think on it, wonder, hypothesize, but that's as far as I go until I have a real reason to do otherwise. So far I have not.

[Syn7]

It's not a good look when the pope is like "**** it, I don't wanna do this **** anymore".

Whatever his reason, it's very unusual for many reasons. Historically, mostly ego. But I'm sure more than a few have secretly tired and just plodded along till they died.

Anyone know anything about the Camerlengo that is worthy of note? All I really know is the few unsavoury comments he made about the whole pedophilia confidential thing.

[JamesC]

My vote is for PedoLucas.

[David Jamieson]

It's not a good look when the pope is like "**** it, I don't wanna do this **** anymore".

Whatever his reason, it's very unusual for many reasons. Historically, mostly ego. But I'm sure more than a few have secretly tired and just plodded along till they died.

Anyone know anything about the Camerlengo that is worthy of note? All I really know is the few unsavoury comments he made about the whole pedophilia confidential thing.

The dude is a walking fossil. He ****s dust already. It's not that he doesn't want to, it's that he can't. He literally is physically unable to fulfill his duties and so he steps down.

I think people are reading too much into this. Maybe it's the fact that everyone sees he is a man and nothing more, nothing less?

[Jimbo]

Why do so many people around the world care so much about the pope anyway? The Vatican/Catholic church is the richest organization on the planet. All these ornate buildings, titles, rules, cover ups, etc., etc., has nothing at all to do with God/Universal Creator (or whatever you choose to call it). I realize some people need an earthly focus, but God is in your heart and in your actions, not in all this other 'stuff'.

A lot of people seem to worship the pope. And I have no doubt it strokes the pope's ego big-time. In Christianity, isn't that considered worshiping a false idol?

[Syn7]

Dogma perverts the supposed purity of god.




We will never know why for sure. Historically the church only admits a pope is sick when he's dead.

I think there is good evidence to suggest that the enormity of the job was too much for him. I also think that the legal issues most likely took a huge toll on him. He isn't some academic that lived in a library his whole life. As prefect of the sacred congregation he was right in the thick of the abuse scandals.

[David Jamieson]

Why do so many people around the world care so much about the pope anyway? The Vatican/Catholic church is the richest organization on the planet. All these ornate buildings, titles, rules, cover ups, etc., etc., has nothing at all to do with God/Universal Creator (or whatever you choose to call it). I realize some people need an earthly focus, but God is in your heart and in your actions, not in all this other 'stuff'.

A lot of people seem to worship the pope. And I have no doubt it strokes the pope's ego big-time. In Christianity, isn't that considered worshiping a false idol?
Nobody worships the pope, but he is revered by roman catholics as Christ's representative on earth. Christ's vicar if you will and Pope means Papa.

as for Idolatry, the Roman Catholic church and Christianity in general has the market corned on this from sacrament trinkets to weeping statues to...well all sorts of stuff that is utterly out of line from scripture and teachings of the gospel.
Yes, people create fan fiction for the Bible as well. :p

I can tell you this, Jesus NEVER said establish a hierarchical priesthood that shall be the method of intercession with god and they will collect tithes and accumulate great wealth with which they shall adorn their membership with and build great buildings of stone and gold on the backs of the poor.... etc etc. Yeah, that won't be found in those books....

This is also why I can't be bothered with organized religion from a western viewpoint. It is unbelievably corrupted on every level. Sad really, because the base message is pretty good.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nobody worships the pope, but he is revered by roman catholics as Christ's representative on earth. Christ's vicar if you will and Pope means Papa.

as for Idolatry, the Roman Catholic church and Christianity in general has the market corned on this from sacrament trinkets to weeping statues to...well all sorts of stuff that is utterly out of line from scripture and teachings of the gospel.
Yes, people create fan fiction for the Bible as well. :p

I can tell you this, Jesus NEVER said establish a hierarchical priesthood that shall be the method of intercession with god and they will collect tithes and accumulate great wealth with which they shall adorn their membership with and build great buildings of stone and gold on the backs of the poor.... etc etc. Yeah, that won't be found in those books....

This is also why I can't be bothered with organized religion from a western viewpoint. It is unbelievably corrupted on every level. Sad really, because the base message is pretty good.

Idolatry is the worship of idol and no Christian worships an idol, though they may use it in their worship practise, the difference is INTENT and that is a huge difference IMO.
That said, I am NO a big fan of that stuff, so...
You are correct that Christ NEVER established a hierarchy, as a matter of fact, even the Jewish religious ( and non-religious) hierarchy were against the wishes of God.
Christ said those that are to lead MUSY serve and that no man is greater than any other.
The clergy should be there to serve not to be served, to not amass anything but to distribute everything.
The only intersession between Us and God is Christ and we "communicate" with Christ VIA the HS, the clergy was to exist ONLY to promote the gospel and to help the needy, indeed they are to lead by example.

How times have changed indeed.

[Syn7]

Yeah.... I doubt very many would have any issue with them if they were all living low. I mean, haters gonna hate, right. But the animosity towards the church is well earned. You can't just say "well we have changed" and expect everyone to be ok with it.

Liquidate, donate and start keeping it real. If they actually did that, I wouldn't mind them at all.

I'm talking about Catholicism, BTW. Don't get me started on some of the others.

[Syn7]

How times have changed indeed.

The old Roman religion was very political. Pontifex Maximus was a very influential position. Augers made tons of cash. Rituals were perverted for gain on the regular. It shouldn't be any surprise that they went from one corrupt state religion to another. Witness the product of corruption. Oh look at that, more corruption. What do you know. Fancy that!

I hear people say things like "well they don't have the power they once had" as if they just gave that up and deserve to be treated as such. To me that's like saying you should forgive a fallen dictator simply because he has been removed. I'm sure even the worst dictators have done some good things for some people.

The NT was written by these people. So why is it righteous when it's authors are not?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah.... I doubt very many would have any issue with them if they were all living low. I mean, haters gonna hate, right. But the animosity towards the church is well earned. You can't just say "well we have changed" and expect everyone to be ok with it.

Liquidate, donate and start keeping it real. If they actually did that, I wouldn't mind them at all.

I'm talking about Catholicism, BTW. Don't get me started on some of the others.

The RCC ( not all Catholic's are under the Vatican by the way) has tried to change over the years and, as with all things, had a varying degree of success and the funny thing is that when it goes more "moderate" is when it gets criticized the most.
That said, the RCC is in serious need of a Vatican 3 council.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The old Roman religion was very political. Pontifex Maximus was a very influential position. Augers made tons of cash. Rituals were perverted for gain on the regular. It shouldn't be any surprise that they went from one corrupt state religion to another. Witness the product of corruption. Oh look at that, more corruption. What do you know. Fancy that!

I hear people say things like "well they don't have the power they once had" as if they just gave that up and deserve to be treated as such. To me that's like saying you should forgive a fallen dictator simply because he has been removed. I'm sure even the worst dictators have done some good things for some people.

The NT was written by these people. So why is it righteous when it's authors are not?

The RCC is base don the hierarchy it "inherited" from Judaism- a council with a head priest ( The Sanhedrin), including the ceremonial garbs and what not ( the RCC version of them of course).
It is important to understand that, before the 5th century, the church had no power and even in the late 4th it was still not as influential as some would like to claim it was.
The first 3 centuries the church was a combination of congregations with very little central anything other than the inter-correspondence between the churches.
There was no central power to enforce anything, they were to busy trying to survive.
When it became the official religion of an Empire ( THE Empire) it was forced ( though I don't' think it was that reluctant) to became an organization.
The leaders screwed up and forgot that they were NOT of this world, of course I don't think Constantine gave them much of a choice and after the issues that happened under his son, lets just say they were well motivated to NOT lose influence again.

[Syn7]

The RCC ( not all Catholic's are under the Vatican by the way) has tried to change over the years and, as with all things, had a varying degree of success and the funny thing is that when it goes more "moderate" is when it gets criticized the most.
That said, the RCC is in serious need of a Vatican 3 council.

You are right. Many find it insulting that they feel they can change and just move on. They are definitely under attack. An ironic state for them, I'm sure.

It mos def is a hot topic for many. I find it all interesting on an social level. For me, I don't think about it much anymore. If I had to choose a label, I am a theological noncognitivist. I don't like atheism. It seems kind of dumb to label yourself as something you are not. I mean, who walks around and says I'm an amoron or apedophile.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are right. Many find it insulting that they feel they can change and just move on. They are definitely under attack. An ironic state for them, I'm sure.

It mos def is a hot topic for many. I find it all interesting on an social level. For me, I don't think about it much anymore. If I had to choose a label, I am a theological noncognitivist. I don't like atheism. It seems kind of dumb to label yourself as something you are not. I mean, who walks around and says I'm an amoron or apedophile.

I am a Catholic in the truest since of the word (Universalist) but there are many things in the RCC Catechism that I agree and I tend to "relate" better with RC and Anglicans than I do with Lutherans and most definitely Calvinists.
All christian owe the RCC and Orthodox churches a great debt for preserving the faith against all the adversity BUT that doesn't excuse the RCC for what it did, is doing, right now that needs to be reformed.

[David Jamieson]

Idolatry is the worship of idol and no Christian worships an idol, though they may use it in their worship practise, the difference is INTENT and that is a huge difference IMO.
That said, I am NO a big fan of that stuff, so...
You are correct that Christ NEVER established a hierarchy, as a matter of fact, even the Jewish religious ( and non-religious) hierarchy were against the wishes of God.
Christ said those that are to lead MUSY serve and that no man is greater than any other.
The clergy should be there to serve not to be served, to not amass anything but to distribute everything.
The only intersession between Us and God is Christ and we "communicate" with Christ VIA the HS, the clergy was to exist ONLY to promote the gospel and to help the needy, indeed they are to lead by example.

How times have changed indeed.

You'd like to think so, but you'd be wrong.

There are entire cults of Christians dedicated to worshiping idols of Mary for instance. They physically and actually pray to these statues, especially in the Spanish versions of Roman Catholicism where you see the paganism stirred in heavily particularly in central and south America where they are liberal with the mix of animism with Christianity.

Christians regularly worship various humans who have been turned into holy beings by calling them saints and what not. Open a paper and you can read prayers to some woman or man who has been dead cor centuries. This is idol worship as there is no one who gets prayers but you know who.

So, I have to disagree with that statement that "no christian worships idols" because the fact of the matter is that plenty of people who self identify and are externally identified in their community as Christian Do this and do it with vigour.

In your outline, the clergy has proven to be naught but failure in the big scheme of things.

trouble is, I know for a fact that some really good people with terrific hearts and minds get attached to Christianity through one of it's inlets.

I personally appreciate the message of the new testament but I will have absolutely no part of any church, religion or calling myself a part of that.

I don't want to associate with the failings of others on the level of the unknown spiritual. I have enough of my own. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You'd like to think so, but you'd be wrong.

There are entire cults of Christians dedicated to worshiping idols of Mary for instance. They physically and actually pray to these statues, especially in the Spanish versions of Roman Catholicism where you see the paganism stirred in heavily particularly in central and south America where they are liberal with the mix of animism with Christianity.

Christians regularly worship various humans who have been turned into holy beings by calling them saints and what not. Open a paper and you can read prayers to some woman or man who has been dead cor centuries. This is idol worship as there is no one who gets prayers but you know who.

So, I have to disagree with that statement that "no christian worships idols" because the fact of the matter is that plenty of people who self identify and are externally identified in their community as Christian Do this and do it with vigour.

In your outline, the clergy has proven to be naught but failure in the big scheme of things.

trouble is, I know for a fact that some really good people with terrific hearts and minds get attached to Christianity through one of it's inlets.

I personally appreciate the message of the new testament but I will have absolutely no part of any church, religion or calling myself a part of that.

I don't want to associate with the failings of others on the level of the unknown spiritual. I have enough of my own. :)

You are correct, I should have said "No Christian SHOULD worship an idol".
Praying to a saint for some sort of "mediation" is also very incorrect IMO .

Mary, in theory how she is suppose to be venerated:
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

Holy Images:

* Holy images

1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new "economy" of images:

Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27

1160 Christian iconography expresses in images the same Gospel message that Scripture communicates by words. Image and word illuminate each other:

We declare that we preserve intact all the written and unwritten traditions of the Church which have been entrusted to us. One of these traditions consists in the production of representational artwork, which accords with the history of the preaching of the Gospel. For it confirms that the incarnation of the Word of God was real and not imaginary, and to our benefit as well, for realities that illustrate each other undoubtedly reflect each other's meaning.28

1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the "cloud of witnesses"29 who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man "in the image of God," finally transfigured "into his likeness,"30 who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ:

Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.31

1162 "The beauty of the images moves me to contemplation, as a meadow delights the eyes and subtly infuses the soul with the glory of God."32 Similarly, the contemplation of sacred icons, united with meditation on the Word of God and the singing of liturgical hymns, enters into the harmony of the signs of celebration so that the mystery celebrated is imprinted in the heart's memory and is then expressed in the new life of the faithful.

[David Jamieson]

You are correct, I should have said "No Christian SHOULD worship an idol".
Praying to a saint for some sort of "mediation" is also very incorrect IMO .

Mary, in theory how she is suppose to be venerated:
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."516 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.517

Holy Images:

* Holy images

1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new "economy" of images:

Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27

1160 Christian iconography expresses in images the same Gospel message that Scripture communicates by words. Image and word illuminate each other:

We declare that we preserve intact all the written and unwritten traditions of the Church which have been entrusted to us. One of these traditions consists in the production of representational artwork, which accords with the history of the preaching of the Gospel. For it confirms that the incarnation of the Word of God was real and not imaginary, and to our benefit as well, for realities that illustrate each other undoubtedly reflect each other's meaning.28

1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the "cloud of witnesses"29 who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man "in the image of God," finally transfigured "into his likeness,"30 who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ:

Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.31

1162 "The beauty of the images moves me to contemplation, as a meadow delights the eyes and subtly infuses the soul with the glory of God."32 Similarly, the contemplation of sacred icons, united with meditation on the Word of God and the singing of liturgical hymns, enters into the harmony of the signs of celebration so that the mystery celebrated is imprinted in the heart's memory and is then expressed in the new life of the faithful.

And not a word of that uttered as Instruction by Jesus. :)

[JamesC]

I never did understand why some Catholics referencd ther. Catechism instead of reading straight from the bible. Catholicism is and always will be about control. If you don't follow their doctrines to the letter you had better repent. And even repenting is forced through a mediator(confession). I don't need to admit my sins to anyone other than Jesus himself.

One of the biggest things Jesus did was free believers from the old roles master and servant. At least IMO.

[bawang]

Bawang would make a great Pope. He would be best friend with Jesus and vanquish the vatican enemies in a manliness fashion. Plus he will get many chances to make romance by force.

i am already best friend with jesus. i nominate mighty david ross

or leung ting. he also the very strong base of the pillar

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never did understand why some Catholics referencd ther. Catechism instead of reading straight from the bible. Catholicism is and always will be about control. If you don't follow their doctrines to the letter you had better repent. And even repenting is forced through a mediator(confession). I don't need to admit my sins to anyone other than Jesus himself.

One of the biggest things Jesus did was free believers from the old roles master and servant. At least IMO.

Roman Catholicism is based not only on the teachings of the bible but also the apostolic traditions handed down through the ages.

[David Jamieson]

Roman Catholicism is based not only on the teachings of the bible but also the apostolic traditions handed down through the ages.

Roman Catholicism is actually Pauline Doctrine and Dogma.

I don't really see it as a good fit with Christianity in intent or on message with Christianity.

I don't believe Jesus ever said spend your time worshiping me and Dad. he said go out and do good to each other and that the least of us could do what he did.

Somehow that got twisted into bow down before the one your serve, you're gonna get what you deserve and all the various other corruptions of the message into a power construct as stated.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Roman Catholicism is actually Pauline Doctrine and Dogma.

I don't really see it as a good fit with Christianity in intent or on message with Christianity.

I don't believe Jesus ever said spend your time worshiping me and Dad. he said go out and do good to each other and that the least of us could do what he did.

Somehow that got twisted into bow down before the one your serve, you're gonna get what you deserve and all the various other corruptions of the message into a power construct as stated.

While some have debated that Paul's view is the core of Christianity, there is nothing in Paul's writings that goes against what Christ taught.
Paul proclaimed the risen Christ and the Gospel of the Kingdom Of God, as Christ commanded him to do, Of course since he was proclaiming it to the gentiles and pagans, he had to tailor it a bit, but the fact that his gospel ( and Barnabas') was accepted by the other Apostles shows that the WHAT was being proclaimed was correct even IF they didn't always agree with HOW it was.
That Paul's writings were twisted and re-interpreted by some is clear as they continue to be done so even now.
Paul was at times a bit legalistic but that is to be expected from a zealous preacher.
Many times people forget that Paul taught what Christ taught BUT he also posted his opinions on matters as well, though he at times made the distinction clear ( Not I but the Lord, Not the Lord but I...), that wasn't always the case.
Because he was a prolific writer we have more from him than any other and, as such, it is easy to think that Christianity is more "Paul than Jesus" but, IMO, that is simply not the case.

[bawang]

Roman Catholicism is based not only on the teachings of the bible but also the apostolic traditions handed down through the ages.

i think there is fundamental irreconcilable difference between catholicism and early christianity.

the dogma of the nazarene sect is jesus is the appointed one who will be king and deliver the jews from the romans.

the dogma of paul as preached to the romans is belief in divinity of jesus to receive immortality, a bargain for personal gain.

[mawali]

My problem is not people worshipping idols but using 'religion' to infect the social and political arena for political profit and benefit. Martin Luther was on target but the Vatican orthodoxy has always been at odds with social reality and still attempting to control lives and forcing inequity into the spiritual realm and that is abhorent in my mind. They say they are against gay marrriage but fail to see the pedophile priests using their position to trick young boys and girls into their games, priests fathering children and hiding and using church funds to pay for their offspring and recently the news of an gay porn ring servicing the needs of priests in the Vatican, per a recent Italian report of insiders spilling the beans, as it were.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think there is fundamental irreconcilable difference between catholicism and early christianity.

the dogma of the nazarene sect is jesus is the appointed one who will be king and deliver the jews from the romans.

the dogma of paul as preached to the romans is belief in divinity of jesus to receive immortality, a bargain for personal gain.

The Messiah ship of Jesus was NOT a Jewish one.
Yes, he came to the Jews first and Israel was NOT lost.
The parable of the vineyard and those that "run" the vineyard explains that it was those that are in charge of Israel ( the vineyard) that have slain the owners son and they have lost the vineyard ( not that the vineyard-Israel- was lost).
That said, Jesus' messiahship was one of the whole world and, as Paul put it, "the Jew first and then the gentile".

Paul did NOT invent the divinity of Christ or make it about personal gain.
Paul did show that it was on a PERSONAL level that we are to know Christ ( not a corporate level with a mediator such as the high priest).
As Paul stated: There is one mediator between Man and God and that is Christ.
No one else.

[Brule]

The Messiah ship of Jesus was NOT a Jewish one.
Yes, he came to the Jews first and Israel was NOT lost.
The parable of the vineyard and those that "run" the vineyard explains that it was those that are in charge of Israel ( the vineyard) that have slain the owners son and they have lost the vineyard ( not that the vineyard-Israel- was lost).
That said, Jesus' messiahship was one of the whole world and, as Paul put it, "the Jew first and then the gentile".

Paul did NOT invent the divinity of Christ or make it about personal gain.
Paul did show that it was on a PERSONAL level that we are to know Christ ( not a corporate level with a mediator such as the high priest).
As Paul stated: There is one mediator between Man and God and that is Christ.
No one else.

It's nice to see that at least some people understand this but too many forget about it.....

[bawang]

The Messiah ship of Jesus was NOT a Jewish one.

the incident at antioch.

the faction of peter was jewish centric, the faction of paul was roman centric.

the whole controversy about jesus was a jewish one. the jews were waiting for a messiah to lead them to defeat rome. the teaching of jesus states that it was not the will of God for the jews to defeat rome and thats why he quickly lost his ten thousand followers.



my original point was, the center of christianity is the jewish people. in christian prophecy the whole world will bow down to the jews one day at zion mountain.
but to catholicism the jews are irrelevant at best. at worst, they are the synagogue of satan.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the incident at antioch.

the faction of peter was jewish centric, the faction of paul was roman centric.

the whole controversy about jesus was a jewish one. the jews were waiting for a messiah to lead them to defeat rome. the teaching of jesus states that it was not the will of God for the jews to defeat rome and thats why he quickly lost his ten thousand followers.



my original point was, the center of christianity is the jewish people. in christian prophecy the whole world will bow down to the jews one day at zion mountain.
but to catholicism the jews are irrelevant at best. at worst, they are the synagogue of satan.

It had nothing to do with Jesus, it had to do with the gentiles and whether or not that were to become Jewish if they were to follow "the Way".

As for the catholic view on Jews:

60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church.18 They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe.19

61 The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church's liturgical traditions.

762 The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people.157 Its immediate preparation begins with Israel's election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of All nations.158 But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant. "Christ instituted this New Covenant."
Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus' death

597 The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept "the ignorance" of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd's cry: "His blood be on us and on our children!", a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388

[bawang]

It had nothing to do with Jesus, it had to do with the gentiles and whether or not that were to become Jewish if they were to follow "the Way".


sry i typed badly, i was finished talking about antioch, i was talking about the controversy with the jewish priesthood and the general jewish population.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sry i typed badly, i was finished talking about antioch, i was talking about the controversy with the jewish priesthood and the general jewish population.

It was a valid controversy since, while He preached, Jesus made it clear that it was for the "lost sheep of Israel" that He had come for.
Jesus never preached against the Torah, sure He made of made it clear that there was an over legalization of how the Torah was being interpreted by the priestly class at the time BUT on a whole He was an observant Jew and since He made on comment on how to integrate the Gentiles, that was left to the apostles and the early church to decide.
With guidance from the Holy Spirit, Paul made His view clear, Peter ( though a bit on the fence even after his revelation from Christ) and James agreed and the matter SEEMED to be settled BUT Paul still had issues when trying to join the gentiles to the Jews in his congregations.
Issues with the Sabbath and dietary restrictions more than anything else it seems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the whole controversy about jesus was a jewish one. the jews were waiting for a messiah to lead them to defeat rome. the teaching of jesus states that it was not the will of God for the jews to defeat rome and thats why he quickly lost his ten thousand followers.

Jesus understood (knew?) what was in store for Israel if they continued in their rebellious ways and He whole message that the Kingdom of God was here, it was amongst them in Him, was to make them understand that.
They wanted freedom from Rome without freedom from sin.
As the old saying goes, " free your mind and your ass will follow" and that is what Jesus wanted, to free them spiritually first.
His prophecy of the destruction of the temple in the lifetime/generation of those hearing was a statement what what would happen.
His death made even his followers, who didn't FULLY understand His eschatological teachings, doubt his messiahship.
That changed with his resurrection of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's nice to see that at least some people understand this but too many forget about it.....

Its far easier to be told then to do the seeking, know what I mean?

[GeneChing]

Not our Frank... could you imagine? :p

However, our Frank is San Franciscan and St. Francis of Assisi is the namesake of San Francisco. I have a framed picture of St. Francis by M.C. Escher that I've been meaning to put up here in the office for months (maybe years :o). It's in my desk drawer. Maybe I should do that now...


CNN Vatican analyst: Pope Francis' name choice 'precedent shattering' (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/13/world/pope-name/?hpt=hp_t1)
By Michael Martinez, CNN
March 13, 2013 -- Updated 2135 GMT (0535 HKT)

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130313154512-16-st-peters-reaction-0313-horizontal-gallery.jpg
Newly elected Pope Francis speaks to the crowd from the central balcony of St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican on Wednesday, March 13. Argentinian Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio was elected as the first pontiff from Latin America and will lead the world's 1.2 billion Catholics. Newly elected Pope Francis speaks to the crowd from the central balcony of St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican on Wednesday, March 13. Argentinian Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio was elected as the first pontiff from Latin America and will lead the world's 1.2 billion Catholics.

(CNN) -- Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Argentina, the new pope, is breaking historic ground by choosing the name Francis.

It's the first time the name is being used by a pope, said CNN Vatican expert John Allen.

Pope Francis chose his name in honor of St. Francis of Assisi because he is a lover of the poor, said Vatican deputy spokesman Thomas Rosica.

"Cardinal Bergoglio had a special place in his heart and his ministry for the poor, for the disenfranchised, for those living on the fringes and facing injustice," Rosica said.

St. Francis, one of the most venerated figures in the Roman Catholic Church, was known for connecting with fellow Christians, Rosica added.

Allen described the name selection as "the most stunning" choice and "precedent shattering."

"There are cornerstone figures in Catholicism," such as St. Francis, Allen said. Figures of such stature as St. Francis of Assisi seem "irrepeatable -- that there can be only one Francis," he added.

The name symbolizes "poverty, humility, simplicity and rebuilding the Catholic Church," Allen said. "The new pope is sending a signal that this will not be business as usual."

In 2010, Pope Benedict XVI recounted how St. Francis was born in 1181 or 1182 as the son of a rich Italian cloth merchant, according to the Vatican website.

Tell us what you think of the new pope

After "a carefree adolescence and youth," Francis joined the military and was taken prisoner. He was freed after becoming ill, and when he returned to Assisi, Italy, a spiritual conversion began. He abandoned his worldly lifestyle.

In a famous episode, Christ on the Cross came to life three times in the small Church of St. Damian and told him: "Go, Francis, and repair my Church in ruins," Pope Benedict XVI said, according to the Vatican's website.

"At that moment St. Francis was called to repair the small church, but the ruinous state of the building was a symbol of the dramatic and disquieting situation of the Church herself," Pope Benedict XVI said. "At that time the Church had a superficial faith which did not shape or transform life, a scarcely zealous clergy, and a chilling of love."

Pope Francis succeeds Benedict, who retired.

[Lucas]

why is he flashing gang signs? hes like; 'west side *****es, im the pope, god is my co-pilot, bring it scrubs'

[Jimbo]

why is he flashing gang signs? hes like; 'west side *****es, im the pope, god is my co-pilot, bring it scrubs'

I'm going completely OT, but I remember several years ago, some !diot gangbangers shot some deaf people who were communicating by signing, because they thought they were flashing gang signs.

[Syn7]

It's cool that they chose a non euro pope.