Chi Sao Vid crazy

[Yoshiyahu]

I enjoyed this Video...Very good. He totally controlled the other guy!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IK_6wobJE



Sam Totally Controlled Sean even though Obasi is a bigger guy! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErPCcFIpbJk)

[LaRoux]

I enjoyed this Video...Very good. He totally controlled the other guy!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IK_6wobJE



Sam Totally Controlled Sean even though Obasi is a bigger guy! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErPCcFIpbJk)

Obassi was the guy doing the controlling there.

[k gledhill]

Obassi was the guy doing the controlling there.

;)............... Sams a handchaser, been there done that, years ago when he was just a plain old master :rolleyes:, I hit him easy, and he got the insta'hump with me :D he asked after he came back in range from my strike..." who is your sifu !? ", " V Kan, I said", at which he proceeded to fight me :D in chi-sao. until we stopped for the mess it turned into.
If you watch SK he places his open palms on forearms making it very hard for anyone to make contact in the game, its not how it should be done, but the game has allowed anything goes to stop getting hit in chi-sao..:confused:

[wingchunIan]

If you watch SK he places his open palms on forearms making it very hard for anyone to make contact in the game, its not how it should be done, but the game has allowed anything goes to stop getting hit in chi-sao..:confused: never done chi sao with SK so can't comment on his ability and will leave that to others, also not saying I agree with you re the clip, but taking your post in isolation from the clip I'd disagree with your comment re the palm on arms making it more difficult to hit. I love it when partners do this during chi sao as it makes it really easy to open gaps to the centre and even easier to slip through once the gap is open whilst at the same time reducing the danger as there is no forwarding.

[Paul T England]

SK is my sigung so chi sao'd, seminared etc with him many times over 28 years. So I repsect him loads but I respect many wing chun greats and still have my own mind. We are not clones.

Lets just say each person is different, you mind and body will make your wing chun unique.

Hands on is good for controlling lesser skilled partners and if you know the dangers you can play a good game. Its not where I want my chi sau going but am guity of playing that style now and again :)

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[jimhalliwell]

Hi

In my opinion hands on arms is a sure sign your partner or person you are performing chi sau with has really no idea what they are doing. To go from forearm to forearm range to actually holding someone off with your hands shows a real lack of control of your own center! If you cant close your center and work chi sau with it shut then go back to basics and start again or you will never really understand the point of chi sau.

Jim.

[k gledhill]

Hi

In my opinion hands on arms is a sure sign your partner or person you are performing chi sau with has really no idea what they are doing. To go from forearm to forearm range to actually holding someone off with your hands shows a real lack of control of your own center! If you cant close your center and work chi sau with it shut then go back to basics and start again or you will never really understand the point of chi sau.

Jim.

Exactly, its using " hands " not elbows ; )

[LoneTiger108]

:cool: Yet another eye opening thread...

No point in sharing my views here as 'Uncle' Sam Kwok can, and does, speak for himself.

What is tiring is reading the same old stuff from the same old people it's no wonder this forum doesn't have the exchange and learning potential it once did :o

[jimhalliwell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tF-4jnNHhE


have to agree with a lot on here most of the wing chun I see is absolute useless!

Jim

[hunt1]

Jeez don't you PB guys ever stop with the crap?

Hands on forearms makes it hard to hit? Boo! Hoo! poor Kev to have such low skills after all these years of chest pounding. Oh please Mister Wrestler grabbing my arms isn't fair! I can't hit you if you control my arms! Please let go so I can show my great chi sao skills that only work if you do what you are supposed to do. Waa! Waa! Waa!


Oh! No! Sam is violating some chi sao law invented by the PB wing chun police!

By the way where is this list of chi sao laws you all seem to claim to be in force. Only use elbows not wrists blah blah blah.

If you have skills you should be able to adapt to any style of chi sao, any fighting situation.

Complaining that someone doesn't do it the way you do it and therefore what they do is no good is childish and like the bully that would kick you ass except right now he can't because he is in his good clothes.

Enough of how great you are Kev and/or Jim and /or all the other PBers ,all the folks you hit in chi sao. Big FFing deal. Everyone gets hit sometime.

I teach out of a well known MMA school. Come visit I can put you in the ring against all manner of folks to spar with and you can actually show us these great chi sao skills. Of course pigs may fly one day too but I don't think I will be around to see that either.

To everyone else reading this I apologize for the rant but I just can't take the PBers anymore.

[LFJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tF-4jnNHhE


have to agree with a lot on here most of the wing chun I see is absolute useless!

Jim

@2:40 Haaaa! It's Ali. :D

[jimhalliwell]

Jeez don't you PB guys ever stop with the crap?

Hands on forearms makes it hard to hit? Boo! Hoo! poor Kev to have such low skills after all these years of chest pounding. Oh please Mister Wrestler grabbing my arms isn't fair! I can't hit you if you control my arms! Please let go so I can show my great chi sao skills that only work if you do what you are supposed to do. Waa! Waa! Waa!


Oh! No! Sam is violating some chi sao law invented by the PB wing chun police!

By the way where is this list of chi sao laws you all seem to claim to be in force. Only use elbows not wrists blah blah blah.

If you have skills you should be able to adapt to any style of chi sao, any fighting situation.

Complaining that someone doesn't do it the way you do it and therefore what they do is no good is childish and like the bully that would kick you ass except right now he can't because he is in his good clothes.





Enough of how great you are Kev and/or Jim and /or all the other PBers ,all the folks you hit in chi sao. Big FFing deal. Everyone gets hit sometime.

I teach out of a well known MMA school. Come visit I can put you in the ring against all manner of folks to spar with and you can actually show us these great chi sao skills. Of course pigs may fly one day too but I don't think I will be around to see that either.

To everyone else reading this I apologize for the rant but I just can't take the PBers anymore.


Hi
Im not a bayer student by the way. Also if you feel tough because you have been to an mma gym all power to you.
Jim

[hunt1]

Sorry Jim not a PBers but I bet part of the WSL police dept. just the same.

Instead of posting how everyone that doesn't do it your way sux why don't you post exactly what you see them doing that you don't agree with and why?

Tough where do you get that from. teaching in a gym that has good amateurs and professional fighters both pro boxers and UFC means that what I do is tested.

If I teach how to deal with boxers my students get to spar with real boxers not the nonsense that is touted as boxing in most of the online clips you see. When we deal with grappling we actually deal with folks who can really grapple. A huge difference from the fantasy that's out there. And there in lies the difference between us.

[jimhalliwell]

Sorry Jim not a PBers but I bet part of the WSL police dept. just the same.

Instead of posting how everyone that doesn't do it your way sux why don't you post exactly what you see them doing that you don't agree with and why?

Tough where do you get that from. teaching in a gym that has good amateurs and professional fighters both pro boxers and UFC means that what I do is tested.

If I teach how to deal with boxers my students get to spar with real boxers not the nonsense that is touted as boxing in most of the online clips you see. When we deal with grappling we actually deal with folks who can really grapple. A huge difference from the fantasy that's out there. And there in lies the difference between us.

Hi

you have real issues with Bayer don't you?
Get over it you may learn something from him one day!

Jim.

[try]

Why do WC roll during chi sao? I don't get what it is meant to emulate or what the purpose is. Has bugged me for sometime....

[Yoshiyahu]

Why do WC roll during chi sao? I don't get what it is meant to emulate or what the purpose is. Has bugged me for sometime....

Not all Roll...Its a basic age old thing from TCM...some gung fu styles have a form of rolling...Yip Man derived Wing Chun utilizes Poon Sao. Others uses different formats.

Basically the rolling is to develop senstitivity and connection. Teaching you how to feel your opponents bridge and allow you to get used to feeling your opponent intent as he strikes. Basically the arms are rolling because when fighting you don't just stand there with your hands touching they are moving. So you conditioned your self to sense and feel while you limbs are in motion. But this is my own thoughts to why WC rolls.

Other forms is Lop Sau drills. Basically from the Lop Sao you can commence to chi sao...some will say thats gor sao or something else but in reality the intensity is too low and its all about connectivity and feeling. Also partner punching is another two man drill you can flow into chi sao from!

[try]

Thanks for your input

I get it...

I guess I find it a bit pre emptive and static? (not static as in 'still' but static as in a set, repeated regular movement) does that make sense?

Having said that, we use a saying where I train 'see but don't see' I guess in hindsight what appears to ME as static or predetermined (for want of a better word) is probably not so in actual application. In other words it's not what it looks like...!

I do chi sao under 5 ancestor (wuzu quan) system and this is without any rolling. Simply bridge (connect) and stick(/strike/or push)

In the context of fighting (i.e. moving) I think this can be dealt with using either approach. In chi sao u can be controlled through heaviness and this can subdue movement and 'trap' an opponent and hence 'make them still' to counter this the opponent must be softer or (perhaps more crudely?) use spring energy.

It's purely a question I wanted to pose. Thanks for taking time to respond

[JPinAZ]

I'm not PB or WSL lineage and regardless of who's doing it, I'd say anyone that steps back to put palms on forearms in a chi sau timeframe is:
1. Giving up space/structure
2. Giving up fwd intent (if they even had it the first place)
3. Allowing their opponent time to either disengage completely, or attack from longer range since they are technically in a san da timeframe and no longer even in a taan/bong/fook 'chi sau' one.

From me experience, when someone pushes (which is really what this really is IMO), it is usually a sign that they are not comfortable with the energy they are given and/or most likely not confortable with their skills in the given range. Same goes for grabbing IMO
Can't speak for Kwok in this regard, but in general, if someone is stepping back from the engagement and putting his palms on the forearms of his opponent, that tells me he doesn't have the the tools to deal with the chi sau timeframe in the firstplace. And usually, they will compensate for the loss of structure and timing with fast hands and quick strikes.

[hunt1]

you have real issues with Bayer don't you?
Get over it you may learn something from him one day!

LOL No problem with Phil, met him almost 20 years ago. Good guy good wing chun.

Only problem I have is with gum flapping bong lop fantasy fu warriors that think dominating students doing bong lop means they have actual martial skill and then they spend all day at the keyboard running others down without ever putting up themselves.

[hunt1]

Now this is a constructive post! Agree or disagree it provides good sound reasoning for an interpretation of a video clip.


I'm not PB or WSL lineage and regardless of who's doing it, I'd say anyone that steps back to put palms on forearms in a chi sau timeframe is:
1. Giving up space/structure
2. Giving up fwd intent (if they even had it the first place)
3. Allowing their opponent time to either disengage completely, or attack from longer range since they are technically in a san da timeframe and no longer even in a taan/bong/fook 'chi sau'.

From me experience, when someone pushes (which is really what this really is IMO), it is usually a sign that they are not comfortable with the energy they are given and/or most likely not confortable with their skills in the given range. Same goes for grabbing IMO
Can't speak for Kwok in this regard, but in general, if someone is stepping back from the engagement and putting his palms on the forearms of his opponent, that tells me he doesn't have the the tools to deal with the chi sau timeframe in the firstplace. And usually, they will compensate for the loss of structure and timing with fast hands and quick strikes to compensate.

[LFJ]

Why do WC roll during chi sao? I don't get what it is meant to emulate or what the purpose is. Has bugged me for sometime....

The rolling appearance of the drill is due to the elbow rotation into bong-sau, but it's not done without reason for the sake of rolling.

The roll is generated from the fuk-sau side. The action from low to high fuk-sau should have the same feel and intention as the punch in daan-chi-sau, which creates the need to bong-sau. Then the bong-sau partner generates the roll on the other side, creating the need for the other partner to bong-sau.

This back and forth exchange of energy creates the appearance of rolling. It shouldn't just be agreeing to roll with each other. It's the constant exchange of forward force. If there is no need, then we should just be striking. The pun-sau format is just to emulate a clash of limbs in fighting and how we can deal with it to continue striking the opponent.

[GlennR]

The rolling appearance of the drill is due to the elbow rotation into bong-sau, but it's not done without reason for the sake of rolling.

The roll is generated from the fuk-sau side. The action from low to high fuk-sau should have the same feel and intention as the punch in daan-chi-sau, which creates the need to bong-sau. Then the bong-sau partner generates the roll on the other side, creating the need for the other partner to bong-sau.

This back and forth exchange of energy creates the appearance of rolling. It shouldn't just be agreeing to roll with each other. It's the constant exchange of forward force. If there is no need, then we should just be striking. The pun-sau format is just to emulate a clash of limbs in fighting and how we can deal with it to continue striking the opponent.

As a side note to that, the mainland style I originally trained in didn't go from low fuk to high fuk.... It went low fuk to punch.

Only lineage I've seen that does this

[BPWT]

The rolling appearance of the drill is due to the elbow rotation into bong-sau, but it's not done without reason for the sake of rolling.

The roll is generated from the fuk-sau side. The action from low to high fuk-sau should have the same feel and intention as the punch in daan-chi-sau, which creates the need to bong-sau. Then the bong-sau partner generates the roll on the other side, creating the need for the other partner to bong-sau.

This back and forth exchange of energy creates the appearance of rolling. It shouldn't just be agreeing to roll with each other. It's the constant exchange of forward force. If there is no need, then we should just be striking. The pun-sau format is just to emulate a clash of limbs in fighting and how we can deal with it to continue striking the opponent.

It's like Hell froze over or something, as I am in complete agreement :)

The only thing I would add, is that the forward force is also a 'testing' element to poon sao. If your partner's structure is bad or they are lacking forward force, your tan, bong or fook should automatically exploit this by finding its way into the other guy's center (as a consequence of your own correct structure and correct forward force).

[Jansingsang]

It's like Hell froze over or something, as I am in complete agreement :)

The only thing I would add, is that the forward force is also a 'testing' element to poon sao. If your partner's structure is bad or they are lacking forward force, your tan, bong or fook should automatically exploit this by finding its way into the other guy's center (as a consequence of your own correct structure and correct forward force).

Notice how the Big talkers have so suddenly gone quiet :D Good post LFJ and accurate description .I would liken to add the forward energy would be Lat sau jik chun at last we can all agree on something ;)

[LFJ]

Right on. Lat sau jik chung was implied when I said; "if there is no need (e.g. to bong-sau), then we should just be striking", but didn't want to get into that much detail describing it to a non-WC practitioner. :)

If we are just choosing to roll back and forth with one another without need, then we have no LSJC and are just playing pat-a-cake... "roll it, pat it, and mark it with a WC". :p

[Robinhood]

What's with all the rules stuff, there should be no rules in chi Sao, if that guy holds onto you , take advantage of it, it is not an advantage to hold on , usually means you don't know what to do.

[Jansingsang]

[/LIST]95]What's with all the rules stuff, there should be no rules in chi Sao, if that guy holds onto you , take advantage of it, it is not an advantage to hold on , usually means you don't know what to do.

I. dare to differ Chi sao is a drill. not a free fight per se, were some want to throw in the kitchen sink :D which is Incorect Yes according too ur leanage and practice you still need. to follow a.code of practice or the correct attributes will never be achieved which would lead to nonsense. we see a lot of ;)

[Robinhood]

I. dare to differ Chi sao is a drill. not a free fight per se, were some want to throw in the kitchen sink :D which is Incorect Yes according too ur leanage and practice you still need. to follow a.code of practice or the correct attributes will never be achieved which would lead to nonsense. we see a lot of ;)

Yes it is a tool to help develop you, but it is also a bridge, and if people want to start from their and work on their bridges , you need to address that connection.

[Jansingsang]

Yes it is a tool to help develop you, but it is also a bridge, and if people want to start from their and work on their bridges , you need to address that connection.

Agreed one word adaption reminds me of a seminar i attended about 2 yrs ago GLWSL were you had a mixed bag of lineages there the topic Chi sao he invited everyone to touch arms I was rather reserved as I know from passed experience things can turn ugly as you dont know the other person I did decide to go for it:D when i did. i heard gasps arh .Take it easy You see they thought there were gonna see a murder:D Iam explosive were the other was arm clinging garbage I imposed skill which Gary was so impressed he gave me a hat and chain ;) Fond memory:)

[wingchunIan]

I. dare to differ Chi sao is a drill. not a free fight per se, were some want to throw in the kitchen sink :D which is Incorect Yes according too ur leanage and practice you still need. to follow a.code of practice or the correct attributes will never be achieved which would lead to nonsense. we see a lot of ;)

Once you've got past dan chi sao rules are not needed in chi sao, just an understanding that it is a learning platform and sufficient respect for your training partner. With correct structure and lut sao jik cheung from your partner breaking "the rules" should result in you getting hit.

[Jansingsang]

Once you've got past dan chi sao rules are not needed in chi sao, just an understanding that it is a learning platform and sufficient respect for your training partner. With correct structure and lut sao jik cheung from your partner breaking "the rules" should result in you getting hit.

Not being funny mate you say past dan chi there should be no rules then you bang on about lat sao jik chung rule and breaking it you get hit your sounding contradictory Rules or no Rules that is the question

:rolleyes:

[LFJ]

LSJC is a "rule" of action like gravity is a rule. Try to defy it and you get hurt.

[wingchunIan]

Not being funny mate you say past dan chi there should be no rules then you bang on about lat sao jik chung rule and breaking it you get hit your sounding contradictory Rules or no Rules that is the question

:rolleyes:

Not being funny either but I never contradicted myself, you just seem to have missed the parentheses or at least their implication.

From my perspective chi sao has no rules (outside of treating your partner with respect as I previously said). You should be free to do whatever you wish and often the best chi sao is experienced with those who are newest to the platform and do the unexpected.
Lut sao jic cheung, structure etc are concepts, behaviours and mindset that are implicit in all wing chun but in the same way as there is no rule saying you can't slam your fingers in a door when in the comfort of your own home you learn from experience that certain courses of action are more prudent than others.

I'm curious as to what rules you adhere to when doing chi sao?

[Jansingsang]

Not being funny either but I never contradicted myself, you just seem to have missed the parentheses or at least their implication.

From my perspective chi sao has no rules (outside of treating your partner with respect as I previously said). You should be free to do whatever you wish and often the best chi sao is experienced with those who are newest to the platform and do the unexpected.
Lut sao jic cheung, structure etc are concepts, behaviours and mindset that are implicit in all wing chun but in the same way as there is no rule saying you can't slam your fingers in a door when in the comfort of your own home you learn from experience that certain courses of action are more prudent than others.

I'm curious as to what rules you adhere to when doing chi sao?

As stated its a drill & not a fight so like yourself respect must be displayed to your given partners

Not rocket science all the other
attributes come into play simplicity is the key;)