Let's Talk About Sparring!

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm interested in different approaches to continuous, hard, (or reasonably hard) sparring.

Is it better to dedicate one day a week to sparring and go balls to the wall with it...or do it for part of every, or most classes? I'm really not sure which way I prefer...curious as to what you guys think are the best structures; or at least what you prefer.

What do you prefer for safety gear? (Of course this depends on experience, but shin pads, head gear, yeah, nay?)

Is hard contact once a week better, or more medium contact several days a week? How many fresh guys will you put in front of one fighter, (new guy each round)? Do you go until his form gets sloppy, or do you go until his gas is spent and can't defend?

What are good ways to structure sparring sessions and what are bad ways?

To the fighters/coaches...

If you have a fight coming up; (assuming this is amateur and you can't do a full fledged 8 hour a day training camp), how would you alter your approach to sparring?

Point sparrers need not apply. :cool:
Just kidding... :p

[YouKnowWho]

I used to use sparring to warm up in the beginning of the class. I would make students into 2 circles. The person in the inner circle would spar the person in the outer circle. After 2 minutes, the inner circle move to the left. Everybody would havd a new partner. After 30 minutes, the sparring stopped and the regular class started.

The PRO of this are

- Everybody are sparring at the same time (include the instructor), and nobody is watching, students won't get nervous and had to perform well.
- Everybod would have chance to spar. No matter students liked it or not, they were forced to spar.

This CON of this is:

- Since there won't be enough gloves, head gears, and body protections, students had to spar without safe equipments, control would be needed.

A combination of this kind of sparring along with full contact sparring (with gloves, head gear, and body protection) will be good IMO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Safety equipment and WHY the majority are in class will dictate the degree of contact.
With proper gear you can go hard every class.
I would suggest full contact every week for those that want it.
I tend to prefer sparring at the end of class because it helps to ingrain what was drilled in class and at the end of class people are more tired and it is better for conditioning.

[Frost]

its better to spar medium intensity more often than hard once a week, i tend to see sparring as a training tool, if you are going too hard you will only work on the things you know work and not really improve your game, you need to spend most of your time at an intensity which keeps you honest but which also allows you to try new things without fear of really getting hurt

There is a place for hard full contact sparring but thats a testing ground not a training toll IMO

Now if you are preparing for a fight its different

what ever sparring you do gloves shin guards mouth guard and groin guard just make sense, hard contact sparring head guards should be used but you also need to do some hard sparring without headwear

[Kellen Bassette]

I tend to prefer sparring at the end of class because it helps to ingrain what was drilled in class and at the end of class people are more tired and it is better for conditioning.

I like sparring at the end as well, if for no other reason then not having to train all class with a fresh bruise. :D

[Kellen Bassette]

its better to spar medium intensity more often than hard once a week, i tend to see sparring as a training tool, if you are going too hard you will only work on the things you know work and not really improve your game, you need to spend most of your time at an intensity which keeps you honest but which also allows you to try new things without fear of really getting hurt

There is a place for hard full contact sparring but thats a testing ground not a training toll IMO

Now if you are preparing for a fight its different

what ever sparring you do gloves shin guards mouth guard and groin guard just make sense, hard contact sparring head guards should be used but you also need to do some hard sparring without headwear

I agree it can't be so intense that you are afraid to try new tactics, that's necessary for improvement. I think it should be intense enough that people are very aware of themselves and trying hard not to get hit. When you get into the light contact realm people will often just eat a strike to give one. This changes when they start getting hit hard.

I personally hate headgear, I don't like the way it cuts down on your peripheral vision. I prefer to spar with relatively hard contact, but tone it down a notch to the head. Enough to rock the head, but not mess your partner up. (Assuming your wearing gloves.)

Of course amateur MT and kickboxing bouts, (in the States) generally require head gear. If you have to fight with it you got to train with it. For MMA it will probably not be beneficial to wear it; for a reasonably experienced student.

I'm mixed on the shin pads. I think they are necessary at least a month before a fight; it's just too risky to bang your shins up too bad and have down time for sparring or bags/pads. I do like the idea of sparring without them, for the real experience and further shin conditioning, but sometimes I wonder if it's worth it; because you will get banged up shins at some point and have to forgo certain aspects of training while they heal.

[MasterKiller]

Sparring at the end of class, after you are exhausted from the class, is better to mentally prepare yourself to fight hard even though your body and muscles are tired, which is EXTREMELY important.

[MasterKiller]

its better to spar medium intensity more often than hard once a week, i tend to see sparring as a training tool, if you are going too hard you will only work on the things you know work and not really improve your game, you need to spend most of your time at an intensity which keeps you honest but which also allows you to try new things without fear of really getting hurt

There is a place for hard full contact sparring but thats a testing ground not a training toll IMO

Now if you are preparing for a fight its different

what ever sparring you do gloves shin guards mouth guard and groin guard just make sense, hard contact sparring head guards should be used but you also need to do some hard sparring without headwear

This. Medium contact two or three times a week is better than hard contact once every 2 or 3 weeks because you or your partners become too injured to be consistent.

If you never plan on competing, hard contact is probably something you should avoid anyway.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How are you guys defining "medium intensity"?
In my day ( pulls out rocking chair and pipe) we had 3 types:
No-contact - for pussies.
Hard contact - hit hard enough to keep it honest but NOT going for the KO.
Full contact - bodies were buried and ninjas dispatched to silence family members.

[Kellen Bassette]

How are you guys defining "medium intensity"?
In my day ( pulls out rocking chair and pipe) we had 3 types:
No-contact - for pussies.
Hard contact - hit hard enough to keep it honest but NOT going for the KO.
Full contact - bodies were buried and ninjas dispatched to silence family members.

Tell me about the great War again grandpa! LOL

I always tell my sparring partners to go hard, but no KO's no broken noses. Then hope for the best.

[pateticorecords]

I'll just mirror our conversation Kenneth :p


We spar for 2 hours switching partners after every match up, we do 5 minute rounds with 1 minute of rest in between the matches. We tend to start the first couple of match ups focused on striking (punching, kicking, elbows, knees, shoulders, etc), then striking with take-downs and throws, then striking with take-downs into submission grappling. Also the sparring starts at medium speed and power and as it progresses we move into full speed and power.

We spar every Saturday morning, we have about 15 people or so people that participate some of them are High School and College wrestlers, amateur MMA practitioners, and people from other arts that come to cross train with us.

Our regular classes are hand's on and once the initial concept it taught it is put to the test on resistant opponents... my focus is that everything that I teach is applicable in a real life/street scenario. We do a lot 2/3/4/5 vs ones. We also have days were they come in for sparring training in regular clothes, not sweats more jeans, slacks, etc I want them to experience what it is like to fight with their regular everyday work clothes.

The MMA perspective is always combined into our regular curriculum even if the students don't spar, we spar after class several times a month for those who can make it on Saturdays. For every principle taught I show/demonstrate as many possible reactions, what if's, and how would it work against boxing/grappling/mma. Then I also teach how to counter if that same principle move is done to you. I also show them how the same principle can be applied while stand up fighting, from a clinch, and on the ground.

I have been working on building a strong community of local like minded martial artists that get together to cross train in each other's methods. I have also humbled by some of the Masters of other arts taught here that now study under me as well.

Oh, I have been challenged as well and took on the challenges to prove a point.

My main objective to show people that the "flowery stuff" (one of the wrestling coaches once said that to me when I first met him and he changed his mind when we grappled...lol) does work.

Here are some videos of takedowns, trips, thows, grappling, striking, etc from our mma sparring sessions, nothing too fancy just some random clips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7DqFEOEvdM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OCziSftrcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=080htGiBMwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyJqxLFUDZ0

[Kellen Bassette]

Actually Patetico, that conversation inspired this thread. And the circle continues...

[Frost]

How are you guys defining "medium intensity"?
In my day ( pulls out rocking chair and pipe) we had 3 types:
No-contact - for pussies.
Hard contact - hit hard enough to keep it honest but NOT going for the KO.
Full contact - bodies were buried and ninjas dispatched to silence family members.

It varies our coach has a test, tuck your chin put your hands down and your opponent punches you in the head , he increases the amount of contact from just touching until you reach a level you are comfortable with (which depends on the level of the guy you are training with his expereince etc), thats the level of contact he uses and its up to HIM to ensure he doesnt go above that,

[Lucas]

most people might not feel this way but I think it's important to get your ass kicked in full contact from time to time if you don't plan on competing. If you havnt been knocked out I think you should (not intentionally but by fighting someone way better than you in full contact with ko allowed), then get back up (if its safe to do so) and then keep fighting after you get rocked. imo thats an important part of self defense. You need to get hit hard, get hurt and not stop. now of course you need an understanding 'hey bro after you knock me out and i get back up, dont ko me again'

[Frost]

This. Medium contact two or three times a week is better than hard contact once every 2 or 3 weeks because you or your partners become too injured to be consistent.

If you never plan on competing, hard contact is probably something you should avoid anyway.

This, our coach was preping fighters last night and gave a speech to the normal class, about sparring level of contact and learning v testing: then he said the exact same thing you did, hard contact should only really be done if you are planning to fight, and used sparingly then because injuries always happen when it gets heavy, and not just KOs etc but silly things like brocken bones in feet, in hands, big cuts etc

[Kellen Bassette]

most people might not feel this way but I think it's important to get your ass kicked in full contact from time to time if you don't plan on competing. If you havnt been knocked out I think you should (not intentionally but by fighting someone way better than you in full contact with ko allowed), then get back up (if its safe to do so) and then keep fighting after you get rocked. imo thats an important part of self defense. You need to get hit hard, get hurt and not stop. now of course you need an understanding 'hey bro after you knock me out and i get back up, dont ko me again'

It is worrisome to me that we have martial art schools out there that are probably at least 3 generations of instructors that have never done real sparring, much less fighting.

I think it's a defining moment in most martial artists careers, the first time they really get hit hard in the head. You learn a lot about yourself then.

[MasterKiller]

most people might not feel this way but I think it's important to get your ass kicked in full contact from time to time if you don't plan on competing. If you havnt been knocked out I think you should (not intentionally but by fighting someone way better than you in full contact with ko allowed), then get back up (if its safe to do so) and then keep fighting after you get rocked. imo thats an important part of self defense. You need to get hit hard, get hurt and not stop. now of course you need an understanding 'hey bro after you knock me out and i get back up, dont ko me again'

Sorry, but this is idiotic. Follow the NFL much? If you have a concussion, AKA being KO'd, you should stop immediately AND take a few weeks off. Otherwise, you risk serious, long-term brain damage. Even pro fighters get an automatic 90 day suspension after a KO in the ring.

You want to simulate fighting out of a flash KO? Spin yourself around in a circle until you are wobbly, then fight someone. It's about the same effect, minus making yourself retarded.

[GoldenBrain]

I'm echoing others here but my opinion is that unless you are training for war or a fight you should save the hard sparring for testing. Light to medium contact should suffice to properly condition the body. Hard sparring during testing should be used to take you to your absolute limit and that's after hours of demonstrating what you have learned.

My definition of hard sparring is all out including knockouts but without doing permanent injury if possible. Light contact is pitter patter and medium is everything goes except for KO's.

I say preserve your sparring buddies by not effing them up and better fighters should always fight to the ability of the lesser fighter. I think the psychos who come to class just to put students in the hospital should be weeded out of TMA. That kind of behavior is for war and not for the average kwoon or dojo.

I also think sparring once a week is fine for most students and it should be done at the end of the class as well as rotated throughout the week.

A cup, mouthguard and gloves are the minimum protection needed. Use shin guards, head gear and other stuff if you like or until you are properly conditioned. For light contact you really don't need gloves but I ALWAYS wear a cup and use a mouthguard.

[JamesC]

Sorry, but this is idiotic. Follow the NFL much? If you have a concussion, AKA being KO'd, you should stop immediately AND take a few weeks off. Otherwise, you risk serious, long-term brain damage. Even pro fighters get an automatic 90 day suspension after a KO in the ring.

You want to simulate fighting out of a flash KO? Spin yourself around in a circle until you are wobbly, then fight someone. It's about the same effect, minus making yourself retarded.

This I what we did. Dizzy bats ad then immediately do pad srills

[SteveLau]

IMHO, once a week is better. How hard is it going to be and what protective gear to be worn depends. It should be carried out during the middle of the training session, when students are not tired yet.

If you have a fight coming up, then do more full contact sparring and fitness training.



Yours truly,

Steve Lau
Hong Kong

[Liokault]

Heavy full contact sparring is the only sparring that matters.

What it takes punch a person hard in the head is very different to what it takes to strike a person with light/medium contact.

What it takes to stand in front of a person who is trying to really hit you hard is very different, physically and emotionally, to what it takes to stand in front of a guy who isn’t really trying to hurt you.

Spar hard with a guy who is only used to light sparring shows quite quickly that the skills are only partially transferable.

If people are getting concussed (and I totally agree that any form of concussion requires immediate stoppage and a long time out) then generally the pairing is wrong.

[David Jamieson]

A few observations.

1. sparring isn't in the same spirit as fighting, it's learning in a simulated environment.

2. Yes, it is necessary to every and any martial artist to spar in order to learn their leaks and weaknesses.

3. People who get competitive in sparring need to go back and learn more. ( I personally have no time for this kind of BS, it's ***** stretching for the most part)

4. Never trust a man who hasn't been punched in the face.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like a lot of what Liokault said...only take issue with the "full contact" part. To me full contact implies that you are going for the KO. I don't think you should ever intentionally knock your opponent out, but that may be just a difference in definition.
I agree with what Lucas said, that you need to experience that condition, but I don't think it should be intentional. If you spar hard for long enough, it will probably happen accidentally anyway.
DJ is right about the competitive thing. I have to remind guys when they get frustrated that they feel they're "losing" the matches, it's not competition. Everyone is trying to improve, not beat the other person or make them look bad.
Although if there is any personal beef or grudges, one of my training brothers always says, "everything comes out in sparring." :rolleyes:

[Frost]

I like a lot of what Liokault said...only take issue with the "full contact" part. To me full contact implies that you are going for the KO. I don't think you should ever intentionally knock your opponent out, but that may be just a difference in definition.
I agree with what Lucas said, that you need to experience that condition, but I don't think it should be intentional. If you spar hard for long enough, it will probably happen accidentally anyway.
DJ is right about the competitive thing. I have to remind guys when they get frustrated that they feel they're "losing" the matches, it's not competition. Everyone is trying to improve, not beat the other person or make them look bad.
Although if there is any personal beef or grudges, one of my training brothers always says, "everything comes out in sparring." :rolleyes:

So hang on its not a competition but you should try to hit the guy as hard as possible without him hitting you (even if you KO him?)

You agree with Lioakult about everything but the full contact part (which IS his main message)

:confused:

[Kellen Bassette]

So hang on its not a competition but you should try to hit the guy as hard as possible without him hitting you (even if you KO him?)

You agree with Lioakult about everything but the full contact part (which IS his main message)

:confused:

No...I said in my post you SHOULDN'T KO your partner, but I do believe you need the "real" feel of heavy contact. I tried to point out, that you also need the experience Lucas mentioned, assuming you may fight, but I don't think intentionally knocking out your partner is the way to go.

I guess what I'm getting at is the contact has to be real but with an element of control. Injuries aren't going to beneficial at all, but I think you need to experience real pressure.

I think a lot of confusion comes from different definitions of medium, hard and full contact. One guy's medium and hard may be another's hard and full. By my personal definition, you would never spar "full contact" because that would imply the intent to injure and KO. Hard contact would be heavy strikes, but controlled to prevent injury of your partner. I think a lot of people refer to this as "medium and hard" respectively.

[pateticorecords]

No...I said in my post you SHOULDN'T KO your partner, but I do believe you need the "real" feel of heavy contact. I tried to point out, that you also need the experience Lucas mentioned, assuming you may fight, but I don't think intentionally knocking out your partner is the way to go.

I guess what I'm getting at is the contact has to be real but with an element of control. Injuries aren't going to beneficial at all, but I think you need to experience real pressure.

I think a lot of confusion comes from different definitions of medium, hard and full contact. One guy's medium and hard may be another's hard and full. By my personal definition, you would never spar "full contact" because that would imply the intent to injure and KO. Hard contact would be heavy strikes, but controlled to prevent injury of your partner. I think a lot of people refer to this as "medium and hard" respectively.

I call it hitting hard enough so you can feel the sting...lol
You can hit someone hard enough to simulate a real situation without having to KO them. It is all about control. No different than when you are training someone less skilled than you.
I go harder on my more advanced students but I still restrain myself because I am not looking to harm them, just help them learn ;)

[Kellen Bassette]

I call it hitting hard enough so you can feel the sting...lol
You can hit someone hard enough to simulate a real situation without having to KO them. It is all about control. No different than when you are training someone less skilled than you.
I go harder on my more advanced students but I still restrain myself because I am not looking to harm them, just help them learn ;)

That's more or less what I was getting at. You can hit someone pretty hard in the body...you can hit them in the head hard enough to rock it and stagger them...you can ground and pound with control, you can work against someone trying to cover up in the corner. You can do all of this without any serious injuries, no broken bones, concussions or internal bleeding. All these methods will put your partner under pressure and SIMULATE real fighting, without going to that extant.

If someone is much more experienced, or a pro, then he may not be under pressure by any of these methods, but that's a good thing. He would be qualified to dictate the level of contact he wants for himself.

[Liokault]

I agree with what Lucas said, that you need to experience that condition, but I don't think it should be intentional. If you spar hard for long enough, it will probably happen accidentally anyway.
But an accidental KO misses the point. The point is not to experience being KO’d or even to feel what its like to be punched hard in the head.
The point is to feel the pressure of standing in front of a guy who is trying with all his means to punch KO you, and to understand that the only thing protecting you is your ability.


DJ is right about the competitive thing. I have to remind guys when they get frustrated that they feel they're "losing" the matches, it's not competition. Everyone is trying to improve, not beat the other person or make them look bad.

I think we need to understand what competition in sparring is.
Competition in sparring isn’t a tag and a point, its applying your ability against a person who is trying to stop you. This is a good thing. It’s a competition to be the one who can apply and to be the one to thwart your opponent’s attempts to apply on you. This only really works in an atmosphere of intensity. As soon as it’s cooperative it loses much of its point. So yes, sparring should be competitive, and it’s a good thing.

The thing I really find most interesting about 100% full contact sparring is that most “matches” end, not when one guy is gassed or when one guy is hurt but one person can’t take the emotional pressure of being in real physical danger any more. Emotionally exhausted for want of a better term.

[Liokault]

All these methods will put your partner under pressure and SIMULATE real fighting, without going to that extant.

.


No they won't.

As long as you’re in a situation where you’re not going to be punched in the head hard enough to really matter then you are not really simulating (or more importantly stimulating) anything.

Also, it’s probably time to step away from the idea that sparring, or indeed anything you do in class is in anyway a realistic "simulation" of a real "fight".
You may be training skills that may or may not be applicable in a "real fight" but you can't simulate real fighting, just drop the idea.

[Kellen Bassette]

But an accidental KO misses the point. The point is not to experience being KO’d or even to feel what its like to be punched hard in the head.
The point is to feel the pressure of standing in front of a guy who is trying with all his means to punch KO you, and to understand that the only thing protecting you is your ability.


Yeah I know that experience is important, but I feel like that's a bad training environment for sparring. I know it's not good to have your first experience with that kind of pressure in a fight, but perhaps an in-school or inter school smoker may be a good alternative?

As far as regular, weekly sparring, you really shouldn't be getting injured. It will just set your training back and make it harder to find sparring partners.

I do think you can put someone under sufficient pressure without intent to injure; although your right that it's not exactly the same thing, I just feel like the regular sparring class is a bad place for that.

Is this how you do your sparring? If so how often do you spar?

[Kellen Bassette]

Also, it’s probably time to step away from the idea that sparring, or indeed anything you do in class is in anyway a realistic "simulation" of a real "fight".
You may be training skills that may or may not be applicable in a "real fight" but you can't simulate real fighting, just drop the idea.

I was going more along the lines of sport fighting, not street fighting. Nothing simulates a street fight except a street fight. I feel sport fighting may be one of the most realistic ways to prepare yourself for a street fight, however. In spite of all the differences between the two...it's probably the most practical way to prepare.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let not forget that sparring is training, even full contact sparring.
The person you spar with is your best friend because he/she is helping you get better and you are doing the same.
Full contact competition is the next step up, the best testing field there is OUTSIDE the "real world".
In a competition the other guy is there to beat you up, not help you train.
In level of intensity:
Drills -> Hard contact sparring -> Full contact sparring -> Full contact competition

[Kellen Bassette]

The thing I really find most interesting about 100% full contact sparring is that most “matches” end, not when one guy is gassed or when one guy is hurt but one person can’t take the emotional pressure of being in real physical danger any more. Emotionally exhausted for want of a better term.

Maybe not "100%" but yeah a lot of them. Guys will just cover up, "run," stay down on the canvas, look for the ref/teacher to stop it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was going more along the lines of sport fighting, not street fighting. Nothing simulates a street fight except a street fight. I feel sport fighting may be one of the most realistic ways to prepare yourself for a street fight, however. In spite of all the differences between the two...it's probably the most practical way to prepare.

Nothing brings you as close to the street as competitive full contact fighting.
To a certain degree competitive fighting can actually be more intense and stimulating than a street fight.
What are the chances of facing a trained fighter on the street, one of the same level as in a competition?
Still, it is important to train the "Street qualities" that sparring and competition don't develop:
Awareness, weapons, multiple attackers, environmental factors.

[Kellen Bassette]

Nothing brings you as close to the street as competitive full contact fighting.
To a certain degree competitive fighting can actually be more intense and stimulating than a street fight.
What are the chances of facing a trained fighter on the street, one of the same level as in a competition?
Still, it is important to train the "Street qualities" that sparring and competition don't develop:
Awareness, weapons, multiple attackers, environmental factors.

My sentiments exactly.

[Liokault]

I like a lot of what Liokault said...only take issue with the "full contact" part. To me full contact implies that you are going for the KO. I don't think you should ever intentionally knock your opponent out, but that may be just a difference in definition.
No, full contact to me means you are trying to KO the other person. I have been doing this for over twenty years now and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many KO’s I have seen. If you get the pairing right there are very few problems. Most KO’s I have seen (and I have seen a few incredible KO’s) have been when people have been miss matched.



Yeah I know that experience is important, but I feel like that's a bad training environment for sparring. I know it's not good to have your first experience with that kind of pressure in a fight, but perhaps an in-school or inter school smoker may be a good alternative?

In class, under the supervision of your own teacher, against a partner that you know and trust, in an environment where you are free to stop at any point with no negative connotations is the perfect place to start.




As far as regular, weekly sparring, you really shouldn't be getting injured. It will just set your training back and make it harder to find sparring partners.

You won’t get injured if you are against a person of a similar build/fitness level and ability as yourself. You will find that it is actually quite hard to KO or indeed hit a guy in a way that actually hurts him (or her) when they are are the same size as you, are as good as you and are making you have to worry about being hurt back.

Look at boxing. how many well matched bouts end in a KO? Very very few, and this is an art where they are specifically TRYING to KO the other guy, no take downs, no sweeps, limited clinching to hide in, just 95% head hunting between two very fit, very aggressive people who in no way seek to "further" his opponents martial development. Yet, the vast majority of bouts go to points (certainly the vast majority of clearly well matched bouts).






Is this how you do your sparring? If so how often do you spar?

Yes, this is how I have always sparred for the 24 odd years I have been training. I have been KO’d once in that time during sparing and seen stars enough to think I should stop maybe 6-10 times. I spar as often as I can, but being 40 and now working away from home (in Germany) my training time is limited, and you do need to be very fit to do this.

[Frost]

Nothing brings you as close to the street as competitive full contact fighting.
To a certain degree competitive fighting can actually be more intense and stimulating than a street fight.
What are the chances of facing a trained fighter on the street, one of the same level as in a competition?
Still, it is important to train the "Street qualities" that sparring and competition don't develop:
Awareness, weapons, multiple attackers, environmental factors.

is it really though....people often say its important to train the street aspects and to spar hard to help simulate the street but when was the last time most of us got into a serious (and by serious i mean very serious not just a drunk pushing match) street situation where we felt our lives were at stake?

If you are training full contact sparring on a regular basis, doing full contact weapons and multipule attacker sinaroes and the answer to my question is not in the last year....why exactly are you puting your body through all that??

[sanjuro_ronin]

is it really though....people often say its important to train the street aspects and to spar hard to help simulate the street but when was the last time most of us got into a serious (and by serious i mean very serious not just a drunk pushing match) street situation where we felt our lives were at stake?

If you are training full contact sparring on a regular basis, doing full contact weapons and multipule attacker sinaroes and the answer to my question is not in the last year....why exactly are you puting your body through all that??

Well, some of us had no choice of course BUT, IMO, if one wants to be a complete MA then, yes it is needed.
That said it is up to the individual to decide and weight the pros and cons.
Heck I know that my body is paying for it now of course.
Would I do it again?
YEP, but without the machismo !!
LOL !

[David Jamieson]

Machismo is just another word for latent h0m0sexual tendencies anyway.
No offense to h0m0sexuals.

[pateticorecords]

No they won't.

As long as you’re in a situation where you’re not going to be punched in the head hard enough to really matter then you are not really simulating (or more importantly stimulating) anything.

Also, it’s probably time to step away from the idea that sparring, or indeed anything you do in class is in anyway a realistic "simulation" of a real "fight".
You may be training skills that may or may not be applicable in a "real fight" but you can't simulate real fighting, just drop the idea.

I beg to differ... yes it is not "real" because you control the setting but it is the closest your gong to get to the real deal.

No different than military war simulations... no, we didn't use real ammo but the experience and the pressure helped us cope with the reality of war and combat when we encountered it for real. It it meant to train your mind on how to deal with the situation so you can act without thinking about it. We also did Chemical Warfare training which was also fun (and scary at the same time).

[Frost]

Well, some of us had no choice of course BUT, IMO, if one wants to be a complete MA then, yes it is needed.
That said it is up to the individual to decide and weight the pros and cons.
Heck I know that my body is paying for it now of course.
Would I do it again?
YEP, but without the machismo !!
LOL !

And when i wrote that i was thinking of you lol i know you served and also worked the doors so it was necessary for you, but its a question i remember rodney king asking at a seminar: hands up all those who train for self defence (all hands went up), how keep your hands up if you have been attacked on the street in the last 6 months (all hands went down) last year (1 hand went up)...in that case why are you training for self defense if statistically its so unlikely to happen just train because you find it fun and want to improve your game was his message

Now can your game be improved without full contact sparring thats the question

[pateticorecords]

Nothing brings you as close to the street as competitive full contact fighting.
To a certain degree competitive fighting can actually be more intense and stimulating than a street fight.
What are the chances of facing a trained fighter on the street, one of the same level as in a competition?
Still, it is important to train the "Street qualities" that sparring and competition don't develop:
Awareness, weapons, multiple attackers, environmental factors.

I agree... another thing to do is to simulate beat downs, multiple opponents beating you down and leaving no room for avoiding it... the only option is to fight back.

[MightyB]

I just randomly punch people in the building. Sometimes I hide in the dark parking garage and jump people. It's best to take their wallets so that they can appreciate the maximum effect of the simulation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And when i wrote that i was thinking of you lol i know you served and also worked the doors so it was necessary for you, but its a question i remember rodney king asking at a seminar: hands up all those who train for self defence (all hands went up), how keep your hands up if you have been attacked on the street in the last 6 months (all hands went down) last year (1 hand went up)...in that case why are you training for self defense if statistically its so unlikely to happen just train because you find it fun and want to improve your game was his message

Now can your game be improved without full contact sparring thats the question

Full contact sparring gives you confidence in the street, you KNOW how your body reacts to the stimuli of getting hit HARD and full contact competition expose you to the stimuli of "unknown attacker" under controlled conditions.
Without them there is no improvement.
Do you need to them forever? no BUT you MUST do them to a good degree to develop your attributes to the best possible degree.
As MA we train for the possibility of combat and as such what, IMO< we require to do is to expose ourselves to the issues present in a street altercation on a regular basis, NOT as regular as sparring of course BUT some type of regualrity and NOT for the physical training because you are already getting that in sparring BUT for the mental factor of " I've been though this, I now what to do, I won't freeze".

Dude, I can't tell you how many times I have seen seasoned MA freeze when the "unexpected" happens.
I recall the first time guy pulled a knife on me, I recall the first time i found myself 1 VS 3 and no back up around.
Scary **** bro.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just randomly punch people in the building. Sometimes I hide in the dark parking garage and jump people. It's best to take their wallets so that they can appreciate the maximum effect of the simulation.

That was YOU ?!?!?!
You ****er !!

[Liokault]

2 minutes on youtube Lets me put some definition in here:

This is totally pointless and probably counterproductive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFF-mNzBkvU

Where this is much better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QnTu7mHgwM

You can see that the blows are sharper, intending to actually hit. The evasion is therefore quite (generally) good. Ok, I think they are more at 75% intensity, but ok.

Of the two groups above, one had a beneficial time, the other didn’t.

[MightyB]

That was YOU ?!?!?!
You ****er !!

It's necessary to simulate the violence in the Street!

Some day you'll thank me for the experience. Sorry about selling your ID on the internet, but it's part of the lesson.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's necessary to simulate the violence in the Street!

Some day you'll thank me for the experience. Sorry about selling your ID on the internet, but it's part of the lesson.

The russian strippers and the mail order bride were a nice touch !

[Lucas]

i did say most people wont agree with me. but i really dont care. im glad i've been through this several times. and like i said, when you get back up, you dont get hit in the head again. getting back up and hitting pads, or getting back up and then continuing with a different intensity and no head shots is not really that much different. if you think about it. unless you're brain damaged and can't see that. thats why you would only do this with someone you trust has the control and experience to partner with you for that. circumstances change things of course, you have to be smart about it, if you get ko bad and go down hard and cant even operate when you get back up. use ur fukin judgment and dont be poosies. :p

i would never tell someone they should do this but i do value the experience and think its a valuable one to go through if you never plan on fighting in the ring. you could do the same thing with letting yourself get blasted in the stomach while breathing in, and then fight through it. if you get brain damage, sucks for you. :p we're not talking about guys who are taking hard shots to the head on a regular basis from competative fighting. we're talking about giving a valuable experience to martial artists. most of all of us have been there and understand its an important feeling to know.

'if he dies, he dies'
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mduzqfmaok1r7guhqo1_500.gif

[eltravose]

I don't have any videos but I like to take an open mind to every sparring match. I have heard before that you should have nothing on your mind when you spar, which happens automatically for some people. It is really easy to get caught up in your own head. I am constantly looking to see 'whats open' or 'how can I make an opening.' I tend to spar more reactive and aggressive, but it all depends on the type of match: testing, point, continuous, etc.

[Kellen Bassette]

I just randomly punch people in the building. Sometimes I hide in the dark parking garage and jump people. It's best to take their wallets so that they can appreciate the maximum effect of the simulation.

Your a perfect candidate for the Black Lotus, dark trickery, fighting society. :p

[GeneChing]

Training is training. Reality is reality. You can train for reality, but only reality is reality. You can also train for fantasy, which might be helpful if you live in a fantasy world. :rolleyes:


Nothing brings you as close to the street as competitive full contact fighting. I imagine this to be true but I've never competed full contact personally. I've been in a lot of street fights however, mostly through my psychiatric crisis intervention work. You know, I've managed to get through a lot of those just through intimidation (I do a decent Bruce Lee impression, part of my fantasy work ;)). I imagine that's not nearly as effective in the ring as on the street. In street fighting, there's a lot to be said for a good sucker punch or distraction (Hey, your fly is down!), which I can't imagine are quite as effective in the ring. In the ring, you know you're going to fight. You and your opponent are committed, and there's a judge that says 'go'. On the street, you never know if the fight will actually go down until it goes down. After a ton of posturing, sometimes you just both walk away. Honestly, you're better prepared for the street by learning some basic conflict resolution techniques than training your sidekick.

Don't get me wrong here. Sparring is great! Keep sparring, on every level: light, hard, whatever you can do.

[Kellen Bassette]

You won’t get injured if you are against a person of a similar build/fitness level and ability as yourself. You will find that it is actually quite hard to KO or indeed hit a guy in a way that actually hurts him (or her) when they are are the same size as you, are as good as you and are making you have to worry about being hurt back.




I think even match ups are the way to go for hard contact, better to use mismatched guys for working specific strategies and skills, but not quite the same as the hard sparring, IMO.

This is a tough one though. It can be hard to find good sparring partners. If your from a small school, or just can't find many guys in your area interested in hard sparring/fighting, you got to take what you can get.

My old Karate teacher started fighting Kyokushin bouts back in the day. He told me he went to all 6 martial arts school in his town and only found one person who wanted to train for fights.

I even know guys that think themselves MMA types and are always talking a big game, but when it comes to getting in the ring they always seem to have an excuse, obligation or injury. If you got a good group where you can provide half-way even match ups most the time, then your fortunate in that respect.

[Kellen Bassette]

Training is training. Reality is reality. You can train for reality, but only reality is reality. You can also train for fantasy, which might be helpful if you live in a fantasy world. :rolleyes:


Maybe I misjudge the LARPers...perhaps they are doing exactly what they need to do. :p

After a ton of posturing, sometimes you just both walk away.


I've known dudes who spend more time practicing their posturing than their martial arts. ;)

[Lucas]

http://saptstrength.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/stir-the-pot.jpg

[GeneChing]

Maybe I misjudge the LARPers...perhaps they are doing exactly what they need to do. :p lol. Indeed yes. Did you ever read our ezine piece on it? The Care and Feeding of Your Inner Superhero (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=926) by Lori Ann White (it's just me trying to sling ninja gear (http://www.martialartsmart.com/ninja-styles.html) again ;) gotta pay the rent around here, doncha know?)

http://legacy-cdn.smosh.com/smosh-pit/122010/boobs.jpg

:p



I've known dudes who spend more time practicing their posturing than their martial arts. ;) Wait, isn't that what forms practice is? :eek:

;)

[Kellen Bassette]

lol. Indeed yes. Did you ever read our ezine piece on it?


I have now.
You certainly make it appear cool by finding attractive women. I wonder what percentage of the LARPers girls like that actually compose? :p



Wait, isn't that what forms practice is? :eek:

;)

Ouch. Wow...:(

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training is training. Reality is reality. You can train for reality, but only reality is reality. You can also train for fantasy, which might be helpful if you live in a fantasy world. :rolleyes:

I imagine this to be true but I've never competed full contact personally. I've been in a lot of street fights however, mostly through my psychiatric crisis intervention work. You know, I've managed to get through a lot of those just through intimidation (I do a decent Bruce Lee impression, part of my fantasy work ;)). I imagine that's not nearly as effective in the ring as on the street. In street fighting, there's a lot to be said for a good sucker punch or distraction (Hey, your fly is down!), which I can't imagine are quite as effective in the ring. In the ring, you know you're going to fight. You and your opponent are committed, and there's a judge that says 'go'. On the street, you never know if the fight will actually go down until it goes down. After a ton of posturing, sometimes you just both walk away. Honestly, you're better prepared for the street by learning some basic conflict resolution techniques than training your sidekick.

Don't get me wrong here. Sparring is great! Keep sparring, on every level: light, hard, whatever you can do.

Believe me, as a bouncer I used conflict resolution more than a left hook.
Of course you don't build a rep with conflict resolution...

[GeneChing]

Of course you don't build a rep with conflict resolution... Good point...for bouncing. It's different in psychiatric crisis intervention. There's nothing like the expression of a half dozen burly security guys whenever I managed to just talk some crazy nekkid tripper into putting down the beer bottle/knife/hatchet and following me to medical.


You certainly make it appear cool by finding attractive women. I wonder what percentage of the LARPers girls like that actually compose? :p Gotta grab the perks where you can, ya know. I've done a little research - market research - and I'd have to say the percentage is about 20/30% attractive women (and not to be too fetishistic but that stat does drop without the costume ;)). On the plus side, I'd venture to say that there's only about 10% attractive men in that scene, so your odds aren't bad. Alas, were I young and unmarried, there would have been a whole lot more mischief that scene might have offered.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gene "The Gigolo" Chen !!

[Lucas]

Gotta grab the perks where you can, ya know. I've done a little research - market research - and I'd have to say the percentage is about 20/30% attractive women (and not to be too fetishistic but that stat does drop without the costume ;)). On the plus side, I'd venture to say that there's only about 10% attractive men in that scene, so your odds aren't bad. Alas, were I young and unmarried, there would have been a whole lot more mischief that scene might have offered.

Those are actually some pretty nice odds. Does MAM sell elf ears?

[Kellen Bassette]

Alas, were I young and unmarried, there would have been a whole lot more mischief that scene might have offered.

Well the married part may put a damper on it; but I don't think your age would hinder you; not with all the cards you got up your sleeve.

"Sup girl? I'm a real fake Shaolin Monk, editor of a magazine, world traveler, chill with rappers and movie stars...wanna come back to my place and do some stunt eating?"

You could probably give the Dos Equis guy a run for his money...if you only had Dale's sweet beard....

[Lucas]

Stunt eating?!?!

[GeneChing]

"Sup girl? I'm a real fake Shaolin Monk, editor of a magazine, world traveler, chill with rappers and movie stars...wanna come back to my place and do some stunt eating?" "Stunt eating" = word of the day!


You could probably give the Dos Equis guy a run for his money...if you only had Dale's sweet beard.... I'm a Guinness man, and I have my own scraggily Fu-Manchu beard (it hides a scar). If I had Dale's beard, I'd look like this (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1031567#post1031567). :p

Note to self: find Chinese elf ear distributor for MartialArtsMart.com.

[Kellen Bassette]

Stunt eating?!?!

It came from the BK horse meat thread.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Crazy larpers !
http://hellinahandbasket.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/larp-kill.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wV65rBhJvmo/TXaXcZOKtpI/AAAAAAAAAPc/KGD6jkQNTMA/s1600/larpbabe.jpg

http://bp0.blogger.com/_hLkgswP1Xv0/R6coGANTkOI/AAAAAAAAAfw/UmKZYk2f5FE/s400/sca.jpg

[Lucas]

Where do i sign up?

[MightyB]

Training is training. Reality is reality. You can train for reality, but only reality is reality. You can also train for fantasy, which might be helpful if you live in a fantasy world.

You just blew my freaking mind man.

http://www.marijuana.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Spicoli.jpg

[Raipizo]

Or just go to like comi-con or something, no need to play with the fake weapons and there are plenty of ladies. Probably a low ratio of men, and even lower when attractiveness is put into equation. But I think sparring should be a separate class in itself maybe on the weekends, that way whoever wants to spar can and who doesn't want to doesn't have to. I would keep sparring probably medium contact not too heavy to really hurt but not slapping at the same time. Not sure what padding I would use if any, probably head guard along with mouth piece and cup.

[GoldenBrain]

Where do i sign up?

You sign up right behind Jeff Spicoli (thanks MightyB, I'm still rolling) because you know he's up for some Stunt-Eating.:D

Or, were you talking about those hottie larpers?:eek: Full disclosure here, I had to look up larper, but at least I'm now caught up on my urban dictionary terminology.:cool:

[Kellen Bassette]

I had to look up LARPer when I came to this forum too Goldenbrain, not a word we throw around much at the jobsite.

[GoldenBrain]

I had to look up LARPer when I came to this forum too Goldenbrain, not a word we throw around much at the jobsite.

Cool, I don't feel so bad now. I admit I was feeling my full 41 years of age there for a moment.:o

[SevenStar]

To the fighters/coaches...

If you have a fight coming up; (assuming this is amateur and you can't do a full fledged 8 hour a day training camp), how would you alter your approach

training camps begin 2 - 3 months before the fight. sparring is done at each session with focus on the opponent's style, strengths and weaknesses. the week prior to the fight, no hard contact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

training camps begin 2 - 3 months before the fight. sparring is done at each session with focus on the opponent's style, strengths and weaknesses. the week prior to the fight, no hard contact.

What He said ( welcome back dude).

[Kellen Bassette]

training camps begin 2 - 3 months before the fight. sparring is done at each session with focus on the opponent's style, strengths and weaknesses. the week prior to the fight, no hard contact.

In amateur you often don't know who your opponent is; and if you do you probably won't be able to find too much out about his personal fighting style. Your kind of left to make assumptions based on the style he claims to practice, if you even know that.

[SevenStar]

In amateur you often don't know who your opponent is; and if you do you probably won't be able to find too much out about his personal fighting style. Your kind of left to make assumptions based on the style he claims to practice, if you even know that.

maybe that's local to your area. it's rare for us to have an opponent we know nothing about unless it's his first fight. especially now in the era of the internet - guys put their fights online. even my sumo coach has his sumo matches online. also, matches are very organized here. you'll always know your opponent unless he backs out last minute and you draw a replacement. but also, promotions here are held in the same stadium our nba team plays in, so...they are quality shows. but even before that, things were well organized.

[Kellen Bassette]

maybe that's local to your area. it's rare for us to have an opponent we know nothing about unless it's his first fight. especially now in the era of the internet - guys put their fights online. even my sumo coach has his sumo matches online. also, matches are very organized here. you'll always know your opponent unless he backs out last minute and you draw a replacement. but also, promotions here are held in the same stadium our nba team plays in, so...they are quality shows. but even before that, things were well organized.

Actually a lot of guys are getting smart about that and taken their fights down or making them private. A team I train with had a couple of fights where they did have their opponents names. Did searches, there was plenty of talk on fb, some local interviews, stats from sanctioning bodies, but no fights. Even cross searching by their opponents couldn't bring up any fights.

But they didn't have any fights posted either...why give someone an advantage? In AM it's not like people have seen you on PPV..of course if their friends put it up you can find it, but a lot of guys have gotten wise to that.

Where are you out of?

[SevenStar]

Memphis, TN

[Kellen Bassette]

Memphis, TN

I'm in upstate NY, the AM MMA scene has only been going for 1 year now...I think they're still figuring stuff out...

[SevenStar]

Memphis is a small city, but they've been doing mma shows since the late 90s. before "real mma" rampage's teacher used to host something called kick shoot, where you fought kickboxing and grappling rounds separately. it progressed from there. one particular promotion - v3 fights - has goten pretty big and is now even hosting shows in other cities. empire fights is another one that is growing. also once per month, they have pro boxing matches. a few months ago, that promotion featured its first mma exhibition match.