wing chun and competition

[wingchunIan]

Reading this forum has highlighted an area of disconnect for me. The standard argument for why Wing Chun isn't seen in the competition arena such as mma or k1appears to revolve around the fact that many wing chun techniques would be outlawed in such competitions, the target areas would be illegal etc. However the vast majority of training clips posted on this forum show nothing except punches to the face being trained, whether on bags, in Chi sao, bong lap drill or any other element of training outside of forms. Some posters have repeatedly referred to the punch as wing chun's primary weapon and some have suggested that other techniques are simply existing to train the punch. This being the case it would seem to be at odds with the rationale for non competition.
Anyone else got any thoughts on this apparent disconnect?

[GlennR]

Reading this forum has highlighted an area of disconnect for me. The standard argument for why Wing Chun isn't seen in the competition arena such as mma or k1appears to revolve around the fact that many wing chun techniques would be outlawed in such competitions, the target areas would be illegal etc. However the vast majority of training clips posted on this forum show nothing except punches to the face being trained, whether on bags, in Chi sao, bong lap drill or any other element of training outside of forms. Some posters have repeatedly referred to the punch as wing chun's primary weapon and some have suggested that other techniques are simply existing to train the punch. This being the case it would seem to be at odds with the rationale for non competition.
Anyone else got any thoughts on this apparent disconnect?

Very good points Ian.

The problem with a lot of WC people is hat they think it is all things to all people.

It's a self defense system. That's it.
It's meant to get you out of trouble in the handful of seconds you might have in a self defense situation.

It relies primarily on one weapon, the punch, as it's simple to use, effective and easy to implement (ie it doesn't require any special physical training)

What it's not, as I think you know, is a combat sport. It just doesn't cut it in the ring, finger strikes, biting allowed.

There's better methods

But if you want to learn a self defense and don't have delusions of being a killing machine then WC is a good choice

[imperialtaichi]

One should train specifically to suite the purpose. If you like to drive fast, you buy a sports car. If you like to go off road, you buy a 4WD. You don't buy a sports car to go bush.

The requirement of being a soldier, for example, is very different from police, or bouncer, or psychiatric nurse, or UFC, or performers/actors, or civilian self-defense. You can't really say what is better, only what is suitable for the job.

WC, IMHO, basically focus on the "Hit and Run" strategy, to get you out of trouble ASAP. It's generally not designed for sport/competition (although some groups are getting good results).

[wingchunIan]

ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn't translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don't personally believe it is.

[LoneTiger108]

ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn't translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don't personally believe it is.

What a strange thing to say... about aiming punches at the chest?

I am really sorry to see that some guys over emphasize the use of the fist as their primal striking tool, considering there is a specific reason why this is the staple of our system. Rather like why we would aim at the chest, the reasoning behind it is what is important.

As for competitions, I still can't understand why we need to fight to compete because there are other skill-based things we can compete with if winning trophies rocks your boat? Especially if there is no common ground or competition rules that everyone can agree on for Fighting?! May as well enter a decent, sanctioned, Sansau/Sanshou comp IMHO.

What about a Wooden Man comp, or a Weaponry Form comp?? Or even a Team Comp, Lord forbid lol! ;)

[Paul T England]

I think that is a valid point Ian,

Wing chun guys should be as good as most other TMA in the competition arena. I guess what fails a wing chun guy is the well-roundedness. We dont have much long range or grappling so once we are in these ranges its difficult unless you cross train. Then people complain its not wing chun.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Kellen Bassette]

ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn't translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don't personally believe it is.

I'm not a WC guy, so feel free to ignore me, but I'll give you an outsiders opinion. I know this is generalizing and doesn't apply to everyone, but I think a hindrance to using WC in the ring is that most/many WC folks only spar other WC folks.

If you want to go into K1, your going to have to spar against kickboxers and adapt your art accordingly. If you want to fight MMA you'll have to adapt to it and learn ground game.

It seems like there's a resistance to adapting an art to fight in a specific element. As if it is a sign of deficiency in the art itself. I think that's a wrong way to think. We understand street fighting is different than kickboxing, is different than MMA, ect. If you want to fight in sanda you'll have to adapt, not only to the rule set, but to using your art against the type of fighters your likely to find in the sanda ring.

I feel like the ability to adapt an art to different environments shows strength in the fighter, not weakness in the art. You got to be realistic and understand you will need to make changes and adjustments, but I think that can be done without forgoing the core integrity of a style.

If you want to fight Muay Thai rules and only spar Olympic TKD guys, this makes no sense. You need to spar with MT guys and you'll have to adapt yourself to defend against the techs you will come against in their element.
You will also have to adapt some of your training methods accordingly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many people use MA successfully on the street and the ring:
Muay Thai, MMA, BJJ, Karate, KB, etc
If WC can't work in BOTH environments then it is quite logically inferior to those MA.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm not a WC guy...

...If you want to fight Muay Thai rules and only spar Olympic TKD guys, this makes no sense. You need to spar with MT guys and you'll have to adapt yourself to defend against the techs you will come against in their element.
You will also have to adapt some of your training methods accordingly.

Ok your post makes some good points, but how about this?

What about our Wing Chun competition rules? If you're a TKD guys and want to fight a Wing Chun guy, why do you expect to be able to kick to the head? Surely you will have to adapt to our rules no?? And herein is the root of the issue... there is no competition for Wing Chun guys that has a decent set of rules that can be unified across the globe like there is in TKD/MMA/Boxing etc

So it's always us having to change what we do to compete with others, whereas if we can do this (Alan Orr is a good example) why can't others do the same??

:D Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps!

[imperialtaichi]

Many people use MA successfully on the street and the ring:
Muay Thai, MMA, BJJ, Karate, KB, etc
If WC can't work in BOTH environments then it is quite logically inferior to those MA.

SR, different focus. Different purpose. If you want to train to fight 3x3min rounds, it will be different to 12x3min rounds.

But you do have a point. They all work on the street too. I would like to argue against the "inferior" reference, because I have faith in WC; but I couldn't. May be someone else could.

In the end, I guess, one must be free to be effective; so the style thing blurrs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

SR, different focus. Different purpose. If you want to train to fight 3x3min rounds, it will be different to 12x3min rounds.

But you do have a point. They all work on the street too. I would like to argue against the "inferior" reference, because I have faith in WC; but I couldn't. May be someone else could.

In the end, I guess, one must be free to be effective; so the style thing blurrs.

Oh, I am just pointing out that it is illogical to view WC as an effective combat method, even more effective than those mentioned, when the fact is that those methods have been proven IN AND OUT of the ring on a regular basis and WC hasn't.

[imperialtaichi]

Oh, I am just pointing out that it is illogical to view WC as an effective combat method, even more effective than those mentioned, when the fact is that those methods have been proven IN AND OUT of the ring on a regular basis and WC hasn't.

I guess what is suitable for the person as well; to choose an art that suits the person's build, mentality, habits etc. Some people are natural kickers, some grapplers, some hitter. Choose the art that maximizes the person's potential.

I'm drifting off topic.

[LFJ]

Is it that Wing Chun has consistently failed in competition or just that there is a lack of it? There is no reason it can't be used in competition without change, as I see it, but it seems the goal of those training WC is not often to compete with it. That's certainly not its main attraction.

[Wayfaring]

Oh, I am just pointing out that it is illogical to view WC as an effective combat method, even more effective than those mentioned, when the fact is that those methods have been proven IN AND OUT of the ring on a regular basis and WC hasn't.

Just think there's a major problem with how its trained overall. I mean Alan Orr's guys don't seem to have a problem working it inside and outside the ring. And EVERY SINGLE TIME I see comments directed toward him, it's how they are using MT or "MMA" and not WCK. And every time he refutes it.

Maybe the story of the little nun with the mystical skills to defeat larger stronger opponents without training is way too ingrained into most practitioners.

[eltravose]

I would love to see more fighters with a WC background. I know there are a lot of techniques that wouldn't be approved or legal in most matches, but just like the world, anything can evolve.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ok your post makes some good points, but how about this?

What about our Wing Chun competition rules? If you're a TKD guys and want to fight a Wing Chun guy, why do you expect to be able to kick to the head? Surely you will have to adapt to our rules no?? And herein is the root of the issue... there is no competition for Wing Chun guys that has a decent set of rules that can be unified across the globe like there is in TKD/MMA/Boxing etc

So it's always us having to change what we do to compete with others, whereas if we can do this (Alan Orr is a good example) why can't others do the same??

:D Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps!

Your right, a TKD guy probably would not fare well adjusting to the different rules, without modifying and adapting his art. It would also behoove him to spar WC guys. The converse of my post is also true.

The OP was asking why we don't see much WC in kickboxing and such. I gave, what I suspect, are the reasons. Of course, in MMA you are free to use nearly all your WC techniques. I don't know much about Alan Orr or Obasi, but from what I've read they seem to be having some success. I'm sure they are adapting their arts to fight wrestlers, submission grapplers and kickboxers as well.

That's an element you probably won't find in your average WC school. If you want to fight in the sport fighting world, your going to have to spar with them and crosstrain to know their techniques. If you only want to compete against WC guys, then your fine just sparring/training with them.

[Kellen Bassette]

Maybe the story of the little nun with the mystical skills to defeat larger stronger opponents without training is way too ingrained into most practitioners.

I think your right about this. Too many traditionalist take stories like that somewhat literally. It's not magic. "Masters" are only human. You can't learn to fight without fighting.

As I said, I'm not a WC guy; and I don't know much at all about Alan Orr, but if he claims his core is WC, I believe him; and if he's having success with his fighters; I'm sure it's because he's realistically training them for fighting.

Instead of telling him it's not WC; I would be more interested in how he's training his art differently than a school that cannot produce a successful fighter.

[Robinhood]

What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand....etc.

What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.

[Kellen Bassette]

What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand....etc.

What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.

Your right, that's why it would require some adaptation to use WC in the ring. Although I believe most traditional arts can be adapted to sport fighting, without compromising the core of the system; so long as you train for fighting.

Something that interests me is the evolution, (or de-evolution) of Muay Boran into modern Muay Thai. MTB used a LOT of the traditional methods common to TMA in general and had a much broader range of technique than modern MT.

Now you can't say it changed because they started fighting. MTB always had a history of sport fighting; and the old "rules" were much more lenient than the modern rules. The adaptation of the modern rule set, rounds, ring and boxing gloves forced the old MT fighters, to adapt and evolve into the modern MT fighters. I suspect that the boxing gloves may have been one of the most important factors in this transition.

Sorry for the weird tangent, that's just how my head works.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand....etc.

What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.

Yeah, you're right, round kicks, left hooks, right cross, elbows, knees, RNC, that crap can never work in the street.
:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your right, that's why it would require some adaptation to use WC in the ring. Although I believe most traditional arts can be adapted to sport fighting, without compromising the core of the system; so long as you train for fighting.

Something that interests me is the evolution, (or de-evolution) of Muay Boran into modern Muay Thai. MTB used a LOT of the traditional methods common to TMA in general and had a much broader range of technique than modern MT.

Now you can't say it changed because they started fighting. MTB always had a history of sport fighting; and the old "rules" were much more lenient than the modern rules. The adaptation of the modern rule set, rounds, ring and boxing gloves forced the old MT fighters, to adapt and evolve into the modern MT fighters. I suspect that the boxing gloves may have been one of the most important factors in this transition.

Sorry for the weird tangent, that's just how my head works.

Instead of looking at what is different from MB and MT, look at what is the same.
MT is not an evolution or devolution of MB, it is the modern sport version of it, a different art.
Think JJJ and Judo.
The thing is, because the sport versions allowed people to fight and train more, they became more effective.
This is old news.

[Robinhood]

Yeah, you're right, round kicks, left hooks, right cross, elbows, knees, RNC, that crap can never work in the street.
:rolleyes:

Anything will work if you can hit your target, what's your point ?

What is the risk - reward and probability of success ?,

[Kellen Bassette]

Instead of looking at what is different from MB and MT, look at what is the same.
MT is not an evolution or devolution of MB, it is the modern sport version of it, a different art.
Think JJJ and Judo.
The thing is, because the sport versions allowed people to fight and train more, they became more effective.
This is old news.

Well it's interesting in that MTB was a sport combat art as well. It just had more of the traditional trimmings and culture in place. It's not really the same as comparing Karate and kickboxing, because MTB was always used for sport fighting.

What would be interesting would be to go back and see how similar, or different, a Muay Boran fight would have looked from a modern MT fight. Sadly I don't think that will ever happen.

But I get your main point, core techniques of fighting are proven and simple, the original core of MTB is probably all still intact in MT.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anything will work if you can hit your target, what's your point ?

What is the risk - reward and probability of success ?,

My point was what you said:

What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand....etc.
Is irrelevant and incorrect since we see clips of "haymakers' working in "real fights" al the time.
What works in any given "ring" is what has been PROVEN to work over and over.
That goes for the "street" as well.
Funny thing is that everything that works in the ring ( typically) works in the street as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well it's interesting in that MTB was a sport combat art as well. It just had more of the traditional trimmings and culture in place. It's not really the same as comparing Karate and kickboxing, because MTB was always used for sport fighting.

What would be interesting would be to go back and see how similar, or different, a Muay Boran fight would have looked from a modern MT fight. Sadly I don't think that will ever happen.

But I get your main point, core techniques of fighting are proven and simple, the original core of MTB is probably all still intact in MT.

The main difference from what I have seen, is that MG has more grappling and weapons work.
Strike wise, they have more open hands but truth be told, ask any MT coach about the old MB techniques and I have yet to see one that DOESN'T know about them.

[Kellen Bassette]

The main difference from what I have seen, is that MG has more grappling and weapons work.
Strike wise, they have more open hands but truth be told, ask any MT coach about the old MB techniques and I have yet to see one that DOESN'T know about them.

Yeah, we may kind of read too much into it. I trained with a former fighter in rural Thailand, he did what some call "traditional" MT...the sport version, but the older style, where they don't really use the hooks and uppercuts, a bit different foot work ect...most they guys I seen in the country trained like this....

Anyway, I asked him about Muay Boran. He just said it's the same thing. If you want to use Muay Boran techniques when you fight, just practice them.

[LaRoux]

One should train specifically to suite the purpose. If you like to drive fast, you buy a sports car. If you like to go off road, you buy a 4WD. You don't buy a sports car to go bush.

The requirement of being a soldier, for example, is very different from police, or bouncer, or psychiatric nurse, or UFC, or performers/actors, or civilian self-defense. You can't really say what is better, only what is suitable for the job.

WC, IMHO, basically focus on the "Hit and Run" strategy, to get you out of trouble ASAP. It's generally not designed for sport/competition (although some groups are getting good results).


Excellent point about training for the purpose.

The disconnect comes in actually using it.

If you are training for the streets, and you are not regularly fighting in the streets, you probably aren't going to fare very well there.

Training to fight in the streets and not fighting there is pretty much the same as training for competition and then never competing. The first time you compete, you probably won't perform very well.

[LaRoux]

Ok your post makes some good points, but how about this?

What about our Wing Chun competition rules? If you're a TKD guys and want to fight a Wing Chun guy, why do you expect to be able to kick to the head? Surely you will have to adapt to our rules no?? And herein is the root of the issue... there is no competition for Wing Chun guys that has a decent set of rules that can be unified across the globe like there is in TKD/MMA/Boxing etc

So it's always us having to change what we do to compete with others, whereas if we can do this (Alan Orr is a good example) why can't others do the same??

:D Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps!

There is a venue that makes all martial arts systems adapt to its rules. It's called MMA.

[GlennR]

ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn't translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don't personally believe it is.

It's too predictable.

Has a limited "kill zone" I regards to range

It's strengths are its weaknesses.

[desertwingchun2]

For me Wing Chun greatly enhanced my ability to protect myself in real world environments. So I would say it is a very effective system for me.

Now if I was one to want to compete in a sporting event, I would say Wing Chun alone would not be my choice.

In the encounters I had on the street, things happened pretty quickly and were over very quickly. The guys I encountered were tough guys but not the kind of tough guys you find in the sporting world.

In the sporting world these guys train to have endurance for days. They get pounded on daily. I am not only talking MMA but boxers as well. So they are expecting hard knocks and are not surprised when you counter and land a strike or kick or any other physical contact.

Also in the sporting world there is no fear of getting shanked, shot, or security rushing in to stop the ruckus. Master Andres Hoffman has guys using Weng Chun and BJJ with great success. Alan has his guys doing their thing with great success. What you don't see is either standing flat footed waiting to use the "Mythical Nun Skills" as described by Wayfaring.

So in short if you want to live in the sport world train and execute like they do in the sports world. If you want to add to your self defense skills or want to get into a martial art for various reasons then I would say WC is the way to go.

And if you want an esoteric culmination of mumbo jumbo and an instructor who made up his own branch of WC go seek Hendrick. Only you wont learn any self defense because he can not defense himself!!! HAHAHAHA

[LaRoux]

So in short if you want to live in the sport world train and execute like they do in the sports world. If you want to add to your self defense skills or want to get into a martial art for various reasons then I would say WC is the way to go.

Or if you want to train for self-defense you could also train using the sports method, but modified for self-defense.

[LaRoux]

Also in the sporting world there is no fear of getting shanked, shot, or security rushing in to stop the ruckus.

Somehow I think most training in the "self-defense" schools don't really worry about this in their training either.

[wingchunIan]

Aaargh..... All the same arguments over and over again but it doesnt add up with what is posted elsewhere . I don't train wing chun for competition but everyone talking about having to change to adapt to the rules of competition take a look at the clips that are posted on here as representative of good wing chun its all punches to the head ( or chest .....lol), other than pure grappling events there aren't many full contact combat sports that have a problem with punches to the head. Posters on here have even described the punch as wing chun's primary weapon. Personally the punch is a tiny part of what I train and teach, and is trained for elbow mechanics more than actual use, it is a small part of any of the forms but if we look at what is available as evidence by way of clips / posts it would appear that for many it is the primary weapon so if it works at all it should also work in the sport environment and all of the arguments about rules etc are moot

[GlennR]

Aaargh..... All the same arguments over and over again but it doesnt add up with what is posted elsewhere . I don't train wing chun for competition but everyone talking about having to change to adapt to the rules of competition take a look at the clips that are posted on here as representative of good wing chun its all punches to the head ( or chest .....lol), other than pure grappling events there aren't many full contact combat sports that have a problem with punches to the head. Posters on here have even described the punch as wing chun's primary weapon. Personally the punch is a tiny part of what I train and teach, and is trained for elbow mechanics more than actual use, it is a small part of any of the forms but if we look at what is available as evidence by way of clips / posts it would appear that for many it is the primary weapon so if it works at all it should also work in the sport environment and all of the arguments about rules etc are moot

Unless you utilize kicking ( which most WC guys do poorly from my experience) your main weapon I'ds th straight punch.
What else is there???

Sure, theres some chops, palm strikes and soon but the straight punch is the primary weapon . Here's nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is.

[LaRoux]

Unless you utilize kicking ( which most WC guys do poorly from my experience) your main weapon I'ds th straight punch.
What else is there???

Sure, theres some chops, palm strikes and soon but the straight punch is the primary weapon . Here's nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is.

If you look at many of the wing chun videos out there, they seem to be mostly made up of chops, palm strikes, backhands and other things much more than punches.

[wingchunIan]

Unless you utilize kicking ( which most WC guys do poorly from my experience) your main weapon I'ds th straight punch.
What else is there???

Sure, theres some chops, palm strikes and soon but the straight punch is the primary weapon . Here's nothing wrong with that, it's just how it is.

I love the kicks and utilise them wherever possible but they too would be allowed in most full contact events.
As for the the punch, if you go through the forms palm strikes etc appear far more often than punches. I have a strongly held belief that what you train is what is available to you in a fight. I train mostly open hand strikes (with follow up control / eye gouges etc) and fak sao's with only a limited number of punches outside of teaching / drilling basic elbow mechanics. I'm not saying there is anything wrong / right with making the punch your primary weapon but for those that do they can't then use the argument of restrictive rules as to why wing chun doesn't appear / fare well in the competition arena.

[GlennR]

I love the kicks and utilise them wherever possible but they too would be allowed in most full contact events.
As for the the punch, if you go through the forms palm strikes etc appear far more often than punches. I have a strongly held belief that what you train is what is available to you in a fight. I train mostly open hand strikes (with follow up control / eye gouges etc) and fak sao's with only a limited number of punches outside of teaching / drilling basic elbow mechanics. I'm not saying there is anything wrong / right with making the punch your primary weapon but for those that do they can't then use the argument of restrictive rules as to why wing chun doesn't appear / fare well in the competition arena.

Yeh, I love the kicks as well and believe that without them your WC will suffer.
You are right about the number of different palm strikes in the forms but the problem with them as far as I'm concerned is that are really only useful once a bridge is made.
They have a very defined kill zone in comparison to say a boxers punch.

So you're limited with them, and once your opponent works that out he keeps at range nullifying them.

So I stand by my argument, to defined kill zone/range for competition and really only effective with a bridge.
To compete you need to cross train

[anerlich]

Is it that Wing Chun has consistently failed in competition or just that there is a lack of it? There is no reason it can't be used in competition without change, as I see it, but it seems the goal of those training WC is not often to compete with it. That's certainly not its main attraction.

There were a few WC punters in the early days of MMA, but most of them got beat, often very quickly and soundly.

Alan's Orr's guys have done well, but I'm sure Alan would agree that WC with no modification and without serious training in grappling and groundfighting is unlikely to prevail.

Some of Rick Spain's students have done OK in cage fights too, including a win over a BJJ black belt by Nick Ariel, but all of them only succeeded after extensive cross training.

Trying to be "a WC guy who wins in MMA" is to go on a fool's errand. If you want to win an MMA fight (or boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling, ...) go to a gym that trains people specifically for those competitive sports. Your Sifu who has only every trained and taught WC is the wrong guy for the job.

The main problem with WC goes back to when guys like William Cheung, Kernspecht, etc etc. claimed their art to the baddest and deadliest on the planet, then had all those claims proved to be false in actual contests. Their claims were proved to be at best delusional.

Arguing about rules impeding WC is just rubbish. You need to adapt what you do to the rules, even if it were to bring the ire of the self appointed pundits on internet WC forums.

[LFJ]

I don't see a reason for Wing Chun to need modification to compete in MMA. A good balance of WC & BJJ, with enough skill and luck, one should fare well. That is assuming one doesn't train in the all too common non-sense WC available.

If WC "can work" against multiple attackers, possible weapons, and other obstacles in real life, then why should it not work against one man on a flat surface in an open, large enough space with no weapons or obstacles but a fence. It's just you vs him. Two arms, two legs. He may be a trained fighter, but so are you. Right?

There are still two problems though. 1) It seems most WC practitioners aren't interested in becoming cage fighters. 2) There aren't a lot of really good WC practitioners anyway. :D

[Graham H]

Trying to be "a WC guy who wins in MMA" is to go on a fool's errand. If you want to win an MMA fight (or boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling, ...) go to a gym that trains people specifically for those competitive sports. Your Sifu who has only every trained and taught WC is the wrong guy for the job.


100% agree.

[Graham H]

I don't see a reason for Wing Chun to need modification to compete in MMA. A good balance of WC & BJJ.......

WC with BJJ is modified WC :confused:

[LFJ]

BJJ just for ground fighting of course, should you find yourself there, and perhaps for awareness of their standing game. The WC doesn't need modifying with standing tactics from other arts, imo.

[GlennR]

The WC doesn't need modifying with standing tactics from other arts, imo.

What evidence do you base that on?

[LFJ]

Evidence? :confused:

I'm not a sporting competitor, but I've used it against practitioners of other styles. I used to share space with boxing coaches and a Thai fighter. I didn't ever need to start throwing Thai round kicks or hook punches to match them. Why would I, unless I'm just not good enough doing my own thing.

[GlennR]

Evidence? :confused:

I'm not a sporting competitor, but I've used it against practitioners of other styles. I used to share space with boxing coaches and a Thai fighter. I didn't ever need to start throwing Thai round kicks or hook punches to match them. Why would I, unless I'm just not good enough doing my own thing.

Used it??

You had full contact MMA rule matches with them?

[LFJ]

Sure, we didn't have a cage though, but a boxing ring setup. We were in it all the time since the place was ours.

Why do you doubt the effectiveness of WC? Or why do you even train it if you doubt it? If you can't use it against one person in a protected environment, what makes you think it'll be useful anywhere else less protected?

[k gledhill]

There were a few WC punters in the early days of MMA, but most of them got beat, often very quickly and soundly.

Alan's Orr's guys have done well, but I'm sure Alan would agree that WC with no modification and without serious training in grappling and groundfighting is unlikely to prevail.

Some of Rick Spain's students have done OK in cage fights too, including a win over a BJJ black belt by Nick Ariel, but all of them only succeeded after extensive cross training.

Trying to be "a WC guy who wins in MMA" is to go on a fool's errand. If you want to win an MMA fight (or boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling, ...) go to a gym that trains people specifically for those competitive sports. Your Sifu who has only every trained and taught WC is the wrong guy for the job.

The main problem with WC goes back to when guys like William Cheung, Kernspecht, etc etc. claimed their art to the baddest and deadliest on the planet, then had all those claims proved to be false in actual contests. Their claims were proved to be at best delusional.

Arguing about rules impeding WC is just rubbish. You need to adapt what you do to the rules, even if it were to bring the ire of the self appointed pundits on internet WC forums.

Agree BJJ + VT is a good combo with a knowledge of clinching/knees/defense. But inversely in a real fight the 3rd degree BB BJJ mma coach in our gym recommends VT ...go figure.
He said the easiest way to turn a BB BJJ into a Brown Belt is punch him once in the face, to turn a Brown Belt into a white belt punch him twice in the face. Sound advice.

[Wayfaring]

Trying to be "a WC guy who wins in MMA" is to go on a fool's errand. If you want to win an MMA fight (or boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling, ...) go to a gym that trains people specifically for those competitive sports. Your Sifu who has only every trained and taught WC is the wrong guy for the job.


There really shouldn't be a problem with a WCK sifu being a specialist striking coach in a MMA camp. If they were keeping it real and training against real talent, even the centerline concept alone would help keep strikers motions in tighter and more compact, which would be an improvement over the wide striking you see pretty commonly.

The problem is, people want a resume for that. And right now, the number of WCK sifus who have any experience in a ring or cage is probably down to less than I can count on one hand. And those guys will be the ones that get those jobs later on.

[GlennR]

Sure, we didn't have a cage though, but a boxing ring setup. We were in it all the time since the place was ours.

Why do you doubt the effectiveness of WC? Or why do you even train it if you doubt it? If you can't use it against one person in a protected environment, what makes you think it'll be useful anywhere else less protected?

So youve sparred a bit..

I dont doubt WC's effectiveness as a self defense style, but as a sport combat style........... no.

Saying it so doesnt make it so.

[GlennR]

There really shouldn't be a problem with a WCK sifu being a specialist striking coach in a MMA camp. If they were keeping it real and training against real talent, even the centerline concept alone would help keep strikers motions in tighter and more compact, which would be an improvement over the wide striking you see pretty commonly.

The problem is, people want a resume for that. And right now, the number of WCK sifus who have any experience in a ring or cage is probably down to less than I can count on one hand. And those guys will be the ones that get those jobs later on.

To be honest, i think WC has had plenty of opportunity to prove itself in the MMA environment (nearly 2 decades since the 1st UFC) and it just hasnt.

The evidence just isnt there

[LFJ]

So youve sparred a bit..

What's that supposed to mean? We didn't have sanctioned bouts, but we went just as hard as any sport fight, in the ring with the round clock and everything. What's the difference? Perhaps your Wing Chun just doesn't work at all?


I dont doubt WC's effectiveness as a self defense style, but as a sport combat style........... no.

I don't understand...

Can you explain why you think Wing Chun would be effective in an unprotected environment where various weapons, multiple attackers and other obstacles may come into play against you, yet somehow, take away all those obstacles, put two guys with just two arms and two legs on a flat surface in an open, large enough space with only a fence to keep them in it... and suddenly WC loses it's effectiveness? :confused:

So against four guys in a bar swinging fists, glass mugs, bar stools, and whatnot, you think, "I can handle this", but against one guy and his fists on an open canvas you're screwed right?

I'd say if you can't handle one guy in a fair match, you can forget the rest. You shouldn't even be doing WC if that's what you're getting from it and can't find a better instructor.

[GlennR]

What's that supposed to mean? We didn't have sanctioned bouts, but we went just as hard as any sport fight, in the ring with the round clock and everything. What's the difference? Perhaps your Wing Chun just doesn't work at all?

It exactly what ive said, youve sparred a bit...... you just reek of no real experience

Shall i tell you a third time?


I don't understand...

Yep


Can you explain why you think Wing Chun would be effective in an unprotected environment where various weapons, multiple attackers and other obstacles may come into play against you, yet somehow, take away all those obstacles, put two guys with just two arms and two legs on a flat surface in an open, large enough space with only a fence to keep them in it... and suddenly WC loses it's effectiveness? :confused:

If you think weapons play and sport combat are the same thing then that says it all.

So ill give you a hint, ones about survival and the others about winning.... have a think about it in between lecturing the forum


So against four guys in a bar swinging fists, glass mugs, bar stools, and whatnot, you think, "I can handle this", but against one guy and his fists on an open canvas you're screwed right?

See highlighted comment above. Oh, and you can fight multiple opponents can you?
Wow........ youre awesome....


I'd say if you can't handle one guy in a fair match, you can forget the rest. You shouldn't even be doing WC if that's what you're getting from it and can't find a better instructor.

Honestly, your little cheap insults are getting a bit tiresome so ill leave you to it.

So ill just plod along shortly to my MT session tonight ,and then spar later using my "poor WC" for what its worth, and leave you to bask in your online glory

So keep being anonymous, keep insulting and keep tapping away if thats what turns you on

[LFJ]

Shall i tell you a third time?

Yes, if it's unsanctioned then it's just sparring and is nothing like a "real bout"? Is that your opinion?


If you think weapons play and sport combat are the same thing then that says it all.

Don't believe I said so. But I don't see why WC can work in real life, but not in a fair match. You haven't explained.


So ill give you a hint, ones about survival and the others about winning.... have a think about it in between lecturing the forum

So you think WC is only good for hit and run? What if there is no possibility of fleeing? You're dead? Why do you even train WC then? Any other martial art that can be used in or out of the ring should be superior. Time would be more well spent not bothering with WC at all.

[anerlich]

If WC "can work" against multiple attackers, possible weapons, and other obstacles in real life, then why should it not work against one man on a flat surface in an open, large enough space with no weapons or obstacles but a fence. It's just you vs him. Two arms, two legs. He may be a trained fighter, but so are you. Right?

Your first premise is open to challenge, and there is scant real world evidence for your conclusion.

You can argue that it should work in the ring, but what evidence there is says that with few exceptions like Alan Orr it DOESN'T.

[LFJ]

I guess it depends on what you take as evidence. If that's what you use to determine WC's effectiveness, I have to ask why you even bother with it.

For myself, it has done what it was designed to do wherever I have had to use it. That's enough for me to keep it up. I don't mind if others can't consistently reproduce the same results. Maybe it's just not for the majority of folks?

[wingchunIan]

Interesting that we've got to so many pages and other than a single post by GlenR talking about range no one has yet been able to offer any explanation as to why Wing Chun can't be used in the competition arena but is alledgedly so effective on the street..........

[Graham H]

Interesting that we've got to so many pages and other than a single post by GlenR talking about range no one has yet been able to offer any explanation as to why Wing Chun can't be used in the competition arena but is alledgedly so effective on the street..........

You need to look harder.

Here is my view so you don't have to waste any time looking ;)

Outside in the real world there are no boundries and limits set by what one can do in a fight. In a controlled environment there are rules and regs that, if broken, will lead to being disqualified or banned.

If I face a guy in the street my goal would be to finish things in quick time if I could. The eyes, groin and throat are my normal targets should my punch not have a positive impact i.e a quick knock out. If inside the cage all these things were taken away from me my chances of winning drastically reduce.

What if you put a well conditioned WC fighter who likes to brawl in the street against a MMA fighter with 1 bout experience and was in not too good shape?

What about the other way around?

How do you know that the worse "cross training" WC fighter on this forum could not be beaten into submission by best pure WC fighter outside in the middle of the road?

The other thing is protection. In the cage you have protection which reduces the amount of damage a strike can do. In the street its bare knuckle to jaw.

Ving Teaches teaches one to win by all means necessary. In the cage you have limits. Those limits make winning harder especially if both guys are mis matched in weight and strength.

That brings up the question of weight division segregation match ups and ring experience......none of that out on the pavement.

Ving Tsun exploits weakenesses where ever possible. MMA cannot function outside the rules. The fighter that loses that day may will win the next encounter. How many street fights have you had against the same person and trained harder for the victory? How many times have you had a street fight and taken time out to recover?

WC vs MMA is actually one of the most pointless questions inside these threads IMO. They will just go on and on and on with all the haters on one side and all the purists on the other...................boring.

[anerlich]

by Kev


the 3rd degree BB BJJ mma coach in our gym

What a coincidence. I got one of those too. Except I actually work out with him rather than trade aphorisms.

Also have a WC classmate, Nick Ariel, who has beaten a BJJ Black belt in an MMA match.

Thanks for your advice, but I have much better qualified advisers already.

Go figure.

[Graham H]

..........BTW

Your average Wing Chun guy stuck in a cage with a conditioned MMA fighter will only have a punchers chance.

That's my opinion.

[LFJ]

There are other TMAs that get taken into MMA bouts and have all those quick kill moves taken away too. They fair well. Machida is an example. Black belts in Shotokan Karate and BJJ. There is absolutely no reason VT+BJJ shouldn't work well, unless VT is just an inferior striking art. And if people believe this, I have no idea why they'd want to spend time training it, when there is more evidence of other arts working well in and out of competition.

[Graham H]

There is enough work to do attaining a good level of proficiency in Ving Tsun without adding other things. I never question myself for training so much and not "proving" it out in the ring. I don't care about all that garbage.

I cannot allocate any more time to training than I do per week which is around 7-10hrs. 4 of them will never be spent learning BJJ thats for sure.

If people care about competing with Wing Chun then its up to them in which case they can add what they want. One thing is for sure. They better train like an trojan instead of thinking that superior Wing Chun beats all. Most of it is rubbish.

[k gledhill]

What a coincidence. I got one of those too. Except I actually work out with him rather than trade aphorisms.

Also have a WC classmate, Nick Ariel, who has beaten a BJJ Black belt in an MMA match.

Thanks for your advice, but I have much better qualified advisers already.

Go figure.

Back to a-hole-nerlich again. Go figure ;)

[Frost]

Back to a-hole-nerlich again. Go figure ;)

why because you tried your usual trick of name dropping to validate what you do and he simply call you on it and punked you with real BJJ experience and not just name dropping??:confused:

[k gledhill]

why because you tried your usual trick of name dropping to validate what you do and he simply call you on it and punked you with real BJJ experience and not just name dropping??:confused:

Actually because the guy who asked me to teach VT classes in his MMA org in North Carolina and Brooklyn www.fearlessfighting.com, saw our WSL PB VT sparring and working out daily at Gleasons gym Brooklyn... Is a VT practitioner and happens to be a 3rd degree BB, BJJ. ;)

[LFJ]

There is enough work to do attaining a good level of proficiency in Ving Tsun without adding other things.

Sure. Technically though, BJJ is not adding anything to VT. It's dealing with a completely different situation.


I cannot allocate any more time to training than I do per week which is around 7-10hrs. 4 of them will never be spent learning BJJ thats for sure.

There are times where you may not get to use your VT. It's essential to know what to do on the ground, especially outside of competition. And actually, there's not a whole lot to learn in BJJ to be street ready. You don't need to learn the sportive aspect, which is not street safe anyway, and be able to out roll a competitor.

You can visit the other thread on Randy Williams and see why you shouldn't rely on VT to handle ground fighting.

[Graham H]

Sure. Technically though, BJJ is not adding anything to VT. It's dealing with a completely different situation.



There are times where you may not get to use your VT. It's essential to know what to do on the ground, especially outside of competition. And actually, there's not a whole lot to learn in BJJ to be street ready. You don't need to learn the sportive aspect, which is not street safe anyway, and be able to out roll a competitor.

You can visit the other thread on Randy Williams and see why you shouldn't rely on VT to handle ground fighting.

I won't bother. I've lost interest in this whole topic. In fact I wasn't interested in the first place.

How can you pit two styles together when there are no human bodies around? Its all BS.

Just because one person does BJJ or VT or MMA or anything means nothing until two people physically clash. How can you know until that point what may come?

If you never fight once in your life does it mean you should not practice your chosen MA?

What are you training for exactly? If you are not competing and stroking your ego what are you doing when referring the being a student/teacher of Kung Fu?

All these question are nonsense. I'm out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For those that state they have no time to learn BJJ or MMA and this IS a valid argument ( there are only so many hours in the day), I suggest this:
Do not learn BJJ( or whatever) BUT learn to deal with it as part of your WC training.
It is NOT hard for any school to invite in a skilled practitioner of another art and get some lessons on how to deal with that system.

[LFJ]

How can you pit two styles together when there are no human bodies around? Its all BS.

Just because one person does BJJ or VT or MMA or anything means nothing until two people physically clash. How can you know until that point what may come?

Don't know what you're talking about, pitting styles together. I'm just suggesting VT & BJJ make a good combo for street self-defense, to address standing and ground.

[Wayfaring]

For those that state they have no time to learn BJJ or MMA and this IS a valid argument ( there are only so many hours in the day), I suggest this:
Do not learn BJJ( or whatever) BUT learn to deal with it as part of your WC training.
It is NOT hard for any school to invite in a skilled practitioner of another art and get some lessons on how to deal with that system.

I want to try to be productive with ground skills advice. So here goes. Yes, it's likely that everyone here spends most to all of their time developing WCK skills. So to round that out and get exposure to ground skills, my recommendation would be to budget your time 1st. 10% of time isn't unreasonable to spend on developing skills to deal with the minions of kimono-wearing sport BJJ fighters that you might possibly encounter in "da street".

Next, learn the defense portion of the ground game. How to protect your neck from chokes and limbs from locks. How to escape and get to your feet. How to not get taken down. Self-defense BJJ, not sport BJJ. For distance learning / more value for $ / etc. Gracie University and the Combatives program is a great intro. 23 lessons I believe. Buy the DVD's (one person in your school - chip in) or have one person sign up for online. Then practice one combatives lesson in your 10% time. Rener and Ryron have enough guided live drilling that will help you more than other resources. Train this at home and together. Gracie University also has the concepts of "Gracie garages" where it's just a bunch of people in a garage and a mat. I've been to a couple of these, and they are cool - just a couple people and a garage mat and a DVD player/TV.

Why am I advising this? Because there are real problems here. WCK sifus don't know how to add this in. WCK students don't know what to do to plug the gaps. Unlike TKD instructors they also don't know how to outsource a ground program.

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
For those that state they have no time to learn BJJ or MMA and this IS a valid argument ( there are only so many hours in the day), I suggest this:
Do not learn BJJ( or whatever) BUT learn to deal with it as part of your WC training.
It is NOT hard for any school to invite in a skilled practitioner of another art and get some lessons on how to deal with that system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A sensible idea.

[Wayfaring]

I cannot allocate any more time to training than I do per week which is around 7-10hrs. 4 of them will never be spent learning BJJ thats for sure.


Valid and universal point.

My suggestion @10hrs/wk would be 1 hour/wk spent in dealing with the ground game. If all you did was perfect a technical sprawl and work technical standups I think you would see major advancements inside of 3 months.

In BJJ we deal with this issue with Judo. Need to deal with the throws, no time to rank up or spend massive time learning. So we pick 3-5 complementary competition throws and drill them until we can hit them.

[GlennR]

Valid and universal point.

My suggestion @10hrs/wk would be 1 hour/wk spent in dealing with the ground game. If all you did was perfect a technical sprawl and work technical standups I think you would see major advancements inside of 3 months.

In BJJ we deal with this issue with Judo. Need to deal with the throws, no time to rank up or spend massive time learning. So we pick 3-5 complementary competition throws and drill them until we can hit them.

I see your point but im thinking G only wants to do his VT... which is his choice and totally fine.

[Graham H]

I see your point but im thinking G only wants to do his VT... which is his choice and totally fine.

Yes I have no time for anything else. I also play league squash which sucks up the hours.

Squash! Now thats a good cross training way to improve VT!!! F**k BJJ :D:D

[Wayfaring]

Squash! Now thats a good cross training way to improve VT!!! F**k BJJ :D:D

Great game. More cardio than racquetball as there's a lot more front and back running. I haven't played in prob 4 yrs.

[Graham H]

Great game. More cardio than racquetball as there's a lot more front and back running. I haven't played in prob 4 yrs.

A lot of cardio. Short bursts and enegry sapping rallies. Start/stop speed increased. Small direction changes. Focus, strategy and tactics.................the same things as Ving Tsun. ;)

[Vajramusti]

Yes I have no time for anything else. I also play league squash which sucks up the hours.

Squash! Now thats a good cross training way to improve VT!!! F**k BJJ :D:D
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Squash is a great game. In the past there were some Pakistani and Indian world champions.
I have not played it since the 60s If the squash ball hits you in the back- it can be like a bullet.
Handball requires more cardio. Handball is also a two hand game.

But these days- I substitute other things to keep the good heart going.

[Graham H]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Squash is a great game. In the past there were some Pakistani and Indian world champions.
I have not played it since the 60s If the squash ball hits you in the back- it can be like a bullet.
Handball requires more cardio. Handball is also a two hand game.

But these days- I substitute other things to keep the good heart going.

Jangahir Khan! A legend from Pakistan! Awesome player. Unbeaten for 5 years. Probably the best player to date ;)

[GlennR]

Jangahir Khan! A legend from Pakistan! Awesome player. Unbeaten for 5 years. Probably the best player to date ;)

Reminds me, must take up Tennis again

[GlennR]

Interesting that we've got to so many pages and other than a single post by GlenR talking about range no one has yet been able to offer any explanation as to why Wing Chun can't be used in the competition arena but is alledgedly so effective on the street..........

To me WC is an ambush style.

Very quick, very direct...... youre attacked by some guy and from his point of view he's suddenly confronted with a swift direct attack fists and feet) rather than larger slower blows that he may expect

Its like an ambush he isnt expecting. Its self defense. It hopefully gives you an edge

You dont have that luxury in the ring. Your opponent will more than likely "figure you out", looking at your strengths and weaknesses, before employing his own techniques etc.

And here's where he works out that WC has a defined "kill zone" in regards to range, doesnt have big power compared to other striking styles, relies primarily on a straight punch, has kicks designed for low attacks only etc etc

Solution (if youre a striker), move, move some more, work the angles which will totally befuddle most WC guys.

Thats my 2 bobs worth

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1212988]

Solution (if youre a striker), move, move some more, work the angles which will totally befuddle most WC guys.
-------------------------------------------------------
Glenn:
Most?
My two cents?
Most WC guys should do something else.
The coinage should not be debased.
Bad money should not drive out the good.

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1212988]

Solution (if youre a striker), move, move some more, work the angles which will totally befuddle most WC guys.
-------------------------------------------------------
Glenn:
Most?
My two cents?
Most WC guys should do something else.
The coinage should not be debased.
Bad money should not drive out the good.

Just saying it how it is IMO Joy

[Kellen Bassette]

For those that state they have no time to learn BJJ or MMA and this IS a valid argument ( there are only so many hours in the day), I suggest this:
Do not learn BJJ( or whatever) BUT learn to deal with it as part of your WC training.
It is NOT hard for any school to invite in a skilled practitioner of another art and get some lessons on how to deal with that system.

I think this is a great idea. In fact, I suggested this when I started the Shaolin ground fighting thread. Most people hated the idea.

[Eric_H]

I think this is a great idea. In fact, I suggested this when I started the Shaolin ground fighting thread. Most people hated the idea.

I have found it very difficult in the past to get people to come in and let you learn against their specialty. Because you are dealing with unfamiliar partners and unfamiliar reactions the risk of injury is higher and there is usually minimal payout.

It's a win-lose proposition, who would want to take the lose side?

[Vajramusti]

I have found it very difficult in the past to get people to come in and let you learn against their specialty. Because you are dealing with unfamiliar partners and unfamiliar reactions the risk of injury is higher and there is usually minimal payout.

It's a win-lose proposition, who would want to take the lose side?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is true. Requires great control.
When a grappler is going for a takedown- a weak effort is not enough to stop him- yet you do not want to hurt your guest.Good noggins are necessary on both sides to learn..

[anerlich]

saw our WSL PB VT sparring

A lot of people on the forum seem to want to see videos of this too, but they never seem to get posted.

The head of Machado BJJ in Australia, John Will (I can namedrop too!) says that all grapplers should learn some striking (and obviously every striker should learn some grappling), so, mutual hatreds aside, your guy might be doing something right.

See how it goes and how long it lasts before claiming victory or passing judgement, I guess.

[anerlich]

Many BJJ instructors will tell you that reaching blue belt level in BJJ will equip you well enough to deal with an person untrained in ground fighting of you take them down. After blue belt you basically start learning to handle other BJJ practitioners.

No one has enough time to explore any system completely. The question IMO is what single system or combination of systems will get you where you need/want to be as effectively as possible.

[anerlich]

I have found it very difficult in the past to get people to come in and let you learn against their specialty. Because you are dealing with unfamiliar partners and unfamiliar reactions the risk of injury is higher and there is usually minimal payout.

It's a win-lose proposition, who would want to take the lose side?

Ask for private lessons, a path will be beaten to your door. Money talks.

Why not learn something about their speciality? How could that be a bad thing?

[LFJ]

No one has enough time to explore any system completely.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "explore". There are some guys on here that have completed the Wing Chun system in a couple lineages. There's really not a lot to it. It should be simple to learn. It just takes time perfecting it.

[Eric_H]

Ask for private lessons, a path will be beaten to your door. Money talks.

Why not learn something about their speciality? How could that be a bad thing?

It is a much different proposition to learn some of their specialty on your own and then try to come up with counters from your first style. I was speaking only to the point of trying to hire/find sparring/training partners from different disciplines.

I would say this approach has much greater success in understanding their style, but in my experience doesn't usually achieve the aim of sharpening your primary style against it.

[wingchunIan]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "explore". There are some guys on here that have completed the Wing Chun system in a couple lineages. There's really not a lot to it. It should be simple to learn. It just takes time perfecting it.
This for me is where misconception that Wing Chun is easy to learn comes from. Learning forms, shapes techniques etc etc is easy in most arts and Wing Chun, MT and boxing are amongst the simplest toolsets to learn however making that toolset work for you, exploring the boundaries and limits, testing and refining in various environments and developing the nuances and subtleties takes a lifetime

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have found it very difficult in the past to get people to come in and let you learn against their specialty. Because you are dealing with unfamiliar partners and unfamiliar reactions the risk of injury is higher and there is usually minimal payout.

It's a win-lose proposition, who would want to take the lose side?

I've found the total opposite when it comes to any sport combat system like BJJ or MMA or any other for that fact.

[LaRoux]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is true. Requires great control.
When a grappler is going for a takedown- a weak effort is not enough to stop him- yet you do not want to hurt your guest.Good noggins are necessary on both sides to learn..

BJJ has been incorporating this type of training for almost a century now. MMA has been doing it for 30+ years now.

They don't seem to have problems with it.

[Wayfaring]

I have found it very difficult in the past to get people to come in and let you learn against their specialty. Because you are dealing with unfamiliar partners and unfamiliar reactions the risk of injury is higher and there is usually minimal payout.

It's a win-lose proposition, who would want to take the lose side?

I find this to be more of a cultural or mental barrier in WCK and possibly other traditionally oriented arts than it is in the combat oriented arts. Many traditional teachers will nix the idea and won't permit any $$ flowing outside the school especially.

If you're talking BJJ, then Andrew is right - privates are the key. Most BJJ black belts will do a group private lesson. For noobs a cheaper option is a purple belt and up - could get a great deal on that kind of thing. Preventing takedowns - with the state of wrestling currently I'm sure you could get a very high level wrestler for very very cheap for a private for that. And if you ask them to teach you drills to develop the skill, then your $$ on the private will stretch a lot ****her. Get multiple people together, pool $$ and have very specific goals. Boxers also - sheesh good amateur boxers don't even have the mentality of getting paid to teach.

Of course if people have douchebag attitudes of superiority rather than really wanting to learn that's unproductive and lends more to getting hurt. But that's just life, no?

[Wayfaring]

It is a much different proposition to learn some of their specialty on your own and then try to come up with counters from your first style. I was speaking only to the point of trying to hire/find sparring/training partners from different disciplines.

I would say this approach has much greater success in understanding their style, but in my experience doesn't usually achieve the aim of sharpening your primary style against it.

Interesting. Want to kick some specific ideas around offline?

[Eric_H]

BJJ has been incorporating this type of training for almost a century now. MMA has been doing it for 30+ years now.

They don't seem to have problems with it.

I can't speak to BJJ, cause I haven't studied it, but the NHB grappling i did emphasized going with the takedown and rolling with the guy. This is much safer at high velocity than WC's response of concussive bridges to the neck, head and arm.

[Eric_H]

I find this to be more of a cultural or mental barrier in WCK and possibly other traditionally oriented arts than it is in the combat oriented arts. Many traditional teachers will nix the idea and won't permit any $$ flowing outside the school especially.


Yep.



Of course if people have douchebag attitudes of superiority rather than really wanting to learn that's unproductive and lends more to getting hurt. But that's just life, no?

This is also a factor, and it's hard to avoid. We're martial artists, usually means that we're broken in some sense, big egos, inferiority complex, repressed nerd rage, seen it all at this point. ;) The mental issues that go along with being a good sparring partner and finding good ones even inside your own school deserves a thread all it's own.



Interesting. Want to kick some specific ideas around offline?


Sure, hit me up on FB.

[anerlich]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "explore". There are some guys on here that have completed the Wing Chun system in a couple lineages. There's really not a lot to it. It should be simple to learn. It just takes time perfecting it.

I've completed the grading system under Rick Spain.

Does that mean I, or he, for that matter, have learned everything there is to learn about it, or maxed out our potential in the system? F$ck no.

[anerlich]

This is also a factor, and it's hard to avoid. We're martial artists, usually means that we're broken in some sense, big egos, inferiority complex, repressed nerd rage, seen it all at this point. ;) The mental issues that go along with being a good sparring partner and finding good ones even inside your own school deserves a thread all it's own.

You make good points, Eric.

[hulkout]

I'm not a WC guy, so feel free to ignore me, but I'll give you an outsiders opinion. I know this is generalizing and doesn't apply to everyone, but I think a hindrance to using WC in the ring is that most/many WC folks only spar other WC folks.

If you want to go into K1, your going to have to spar against kickboxers and adapt your art accordingly. If you want to fight MMA you'll have to adapt to it and learn ground game.

It seems like there's a resistance to adapting an art to fight in a specific element. As if it is a sign of deficiency in the art itself. I think that's a wrong way to think. We understand street fighting is different than kickboxing, is different than MMA, ect. If you want to fight in sanda you'll have to adapt, not only to the rule set, but to using your art against the type of fighters your likely to find in the sanda ring.

I feel like the ability to adapt an art to different environments shows strength in the fighter, not weakness in the art. You got to be realistic and understand you will need to make changes and adjustments, but I think that can be done without forgoing the core integrity of a style.

If you want to fight Muay Thai rules and only spar Olympic TKD guys, this makes no sense. You need to spar with MT guys and you'll have to adapt yourself to defend against the techs you will come against in their element.
You will also have to adapt some of your training methods accordingly.

Another problem is that a lot of Wing Chun guys train too much Chi Sao and dead drills. I'm not saying Chi Sao is useless. On the contrary, it's essential to really understanding and using the system. But you have to train and practice fighting in a real way as well. Otherwise, the training is just too far removed from the feel of real fighting. Chi Sao is for sensitivity and developing the attributes needed for fighting. It is NOT real fighting like some people seem to think. In a real fight, it probably accounts for less than a half second. Of course that can be a crucial half second, but there's far more to fighting than just that. And Chi Sao competitions are beyond stupid. If you don't know the feel of fighting someone for real, you won't be able to suddenly rise to the occasion when it happens. This is what far too many Wing Chun guys do. Even other things like body conditioning are ignored by the vast majority. The bottom line is that if you really want to learn how to fight, you're going to have to go through some pain. If you think that you can just do forms and tons of Chi Sao and you're ready for fighting, you'll learn the hard way that it's not enough.

[k gledhill]

Another problem is that a lot of Wing Chun guys train too much Chi Sao and dead drills. I'm not saying Chi Sao is useless. On the contrary, it's essential to really understanding and using the system. But you have to train and practice fighting in a real way as well. Otherwise, the training is just too far removed from the feel of real fighting. Chi Sao is for sensitivity and developing the attributes needed for fighting. It is NOT real fighting like some people seem to think. In a real fight, it probably accounts for less than a half second. Of course that can be a crucial half second, but there's far more to fighting than just that. And Chi Sao competitions are beyond stupid. If you don't know the feel of fighting someone for real, you won't be able to suddenly rise to the occasion when it happens. This is what far too many Wing Chun guys do. Even other things like body conditioning are ignored by the vast majority. The bottom line is that if you really want to learn how to fight, you're going to have to go through some pain. If you think that you can just do forms and tons of Chi Sao and you're ready for fighting, you'll learn the hard way that it's not enough.

I agree, but chi-sao is not to develop sensitivity, sensitivity is a by-product of the drills, not the goal.

[Robinhood]

I agree, but chi-sao is not to develop sensitivity, sensitivity is a by-product of the drills, not the goal.

If you look at Tai Chi, it does a better break down of what different kinds of development's there are and the order they are acquired, the word sensitivity is just a general term and over used.