What works and what doesn't work

[LaRoux]

Someone posted this clip:
Wing Chun guy fighting with techniques that work. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8B6eNm2zs)


It shows an excellent example a clip of a wing chun guy using techniques to dominate a guy with Muay Thai training in a no rules standup fight.

What is instructive about this clip is that is it shows what techniques are used effectively to get the job done- mainly straight punches and (gasp!) round punches. Once again, pretty much the same techniques you see almost any time any kind of stylist starts to actually attempt to fight full contact.

What is also instructive is what he doesn't use- mainly those little chopping backfists, forearm throat strikes, "knee breaks", and arm holding techniques that so many "masters" of wing chun show in their demonstrations.

[Kellen Bassette]

It also shows someone who obviously spars, is comfortable under pressure, and experienced in distance and timing in a live situation. All of which is equally as important as the techniques he is using.

[LaRoux]

It also shows someone who obviously spars, is comfortable under pressure, and experienced in distance and timing in a live situation. All of which is equally as important as the techniques he is using.

Is sparring important? Of course it is.

But the bigger lesson is that those who actually spar (especially those who spar outside their system) quickly figure out that they have to scrap a large majority of the techniques they were taught by their "masters" who never really sparred or fought much and never figured this out themselves.

[Kellen Bassette]

Is sparring important? Of course it is.

But the bigger lesson is that those who actually spar (especially those who spar outside their system) quickly figure out that they have to scrap a large majority of the techniques they were taught by their "masters" who never really sparred or fought much and never figured this out themselves.

Your right.

Actually, you can probably make all those techniques work against someone who has no training, and isn't particularly athletic or aggressive. But against a fighter, an athlete, or an aggressive person, (the kind that is likely to attack you in the street,) you probably won't fare well.

[GlennR]

Someone posted this clip:
Wing Chun guy fighting with techniques that work. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8B6eNm2zs)


It shows an excellent example a clip of a wing chun guy using techniques to dominate a guy with Muay Thai training in a no rules standup fight.

What is instructive about this clip is that is it shows what techniques are used effectively to get the job done- mainly straight punches and (gasp!) round punches. Once again, pretty much the same techniques you see almost any time any kind of stylist starts to actually attempt to fight full contact.

What is also instructive is what he doesn't use- mainly those little chopping backfists, forearm throat strikes, "knee breaks", and arm holding techniques that so many "masters" of wing chun show in their demonstrations.

Yep, the WC was fine, though the MT was very poor

But you're right , he kept to the basics to get the job done

[JPinAZ]

I didn't really focus on any techniques he used in the clip. To me, that doesn't mean much. IMO, talking about which techniques work and which don't is really missing the point of WCK.

For me, WCK is about understanding structure, gravity, proper leverage and positional control, etc thru understanding of concepts based on very specific principles - with the end goal toward fighting with maximum efficiency. The techniques are just a by-product of this way of fight training and shouldn't be the focus. All WCK techniques have the correct time and place, the trick is understanding these core foundational principles of the system which dictates what works and when (which sparring is a great avenue for doing this!).

Glenn mentioned that the guy in the clip 'kept to the basics'. If by basics he means keeping it simple by use of centerline occupation & domination supported with good structure, position, leverage and applied fwd pressure - then I fully agree. And IMO, that is more in line with what fighting with WCK should be about :)

[LaRoux]

All WCK techniques have the correct time and place,.

Maybe on a cadaver.

But on a live, adult person there are a whole bunch that aren't going to be very effective.

[JPinAZ]

Maybe on a cadaver.

But on a live, adult person there are a whole bunch that aren't going to be very effective.

Sorry if your technique focused experience in WCK makes you feel this way, my experience tells me otherwise.
And great reply to my post BTW - pick just a single comment out (out of context as it was) and give no examples to back up your smart a$$ reply. Good job :rolleyes:

[LaRoux]

Sorry if your technique focused experience in WCK makes you feel this way, my experience tells me otherwise.
And great reply to my post BTW - pick just a single comment out (out of context as it was) and give no examples to back up your smart a$$ reply. Good job :rolleyes:

I tried posting and giving examples based a video showing a bunch of techniques that wouldn't work worth beans. It was deleted by the mods, so it seems like giving examples doesn't really fly around here.

[EternalSpring]

But the bigger lesson is that those who actually spar (especially those who spar outside their system) quickly figure out that they have to scrap a large majority of the techniques they were taught...

It's a good idea to keep in mind, but that lesson doesn't always hold true, and I think that's the reason people have mentioned that the MT guy was not all that great, at least in this particular video. It's very easy to think the wrong things work if your sparring partner isn't as effective with his/her art. But props to the chun guy.

[Sihing73]

I tried posting and giving examples based a video showing a bunch of techniques that wouldn't work worth beans. It was deleted by the mods, so it seems like giving examples doesn't really fly around here.

Hmmm, I would be interested in which video you are referring to.

Feel free to PM me with the link.

Giving examples is fine.................some other things are not..............I would need to look at the "video" you refer to in order to determine which catagory your reference falls under.

[imperialtaichi]

One can't learn to drive in a simulator only; one must get on the road.

Similarly, one MUST spar; although sparring is still a simulator but at least it is a step up.

Otherwise, it is just delusion.

[CRCAVA]

What gives you the authority to judge others fighting ability? Do you fight? Have you fought? If so by what rules if any? So far all I've heard you do is make a bunch of Guestimations of what would happen in a real fight... Bashing WC instructors that have contributed to WC in a wholesome way is not a good way to make your points...

[GlennR]

What gives you the authority to judge others fighting ability? Do you fight? Have you fought? If so by what rules if any? So far all I've heard you do is make a bunch of Guestimations of what would happen in a real fight... Bashing WC instructors that have contributed to WC in a wholesome way is not a good way to make your points...

You don't need to be a hard nu killing machine to have n opinion. If that was the case then I think this forum would shut down overnight.

If he challenges what he sees offer your point of view and he might be wrong.
Character assassination to prove your point is a wast of everyone's time

[LaRoux]

Hmmm, I would be interested in which video you are referring to.

Feel free to PM me with the link.

Giving examples is fine.................some other things are not..............I would need to look at the "video" you refer to in order to determine which catagory your reference falls under.

It was the video of Randy Williams showing techniques that I thought were unrealistic.

[LaRoux]

What gives you the authority to judge others fighting ability? Do you fight? Have you fought? If so by what rules if any? So far all I've heard you do is make a bunch of Guestimations of what would happen in a real fight... Bashing WC instructors that have contributed to WC in a wholesome way is not a good way to make your points...

My judgements are based on the evidence of what works in everything from people who have no training at all to high level professional fighters. The evidence of full contact fighting is all over the place for anyone to see. On the other hand, there seems to be no evidence of many wing chun techniques working in full contact settings.

That being said, I am open to additional evidence of what might work. If you, or anyone else for that matter, can provide some hard evidence for the techniques that I consider to be "unrealistic" working in full-contact settings go ahead and provide that evidence.

[wingchunIan]

personally I think this clip is more reflective of the alledged MT guy's lack of ability than the alledged wing chun guy. The MT guy was tentative and lacked lateral movement. The WC guy did what we see in so many clips where the WC guy ends up getting KO'd and simply charged forward striking. I will agree though that the WC guy controlled the distance really well, took the initiative and kept up the pressure making it difficult for his opponent.

[CRCAVA]

My judgements are based on the evidence of what works in everything from people who have no training at all to high level professional fighters. The evidence of full contact fighting is all over the place for anyone to see. On the other hand, there seems to be no evidence of many wing chun techniques working in full contact settings.

That being said, I am open to additional evidence of what might work. If you, or anyone else for that matter, can provide some hard evidence for the techniques that I consider to be "unrealistic" working in full-contact settings go ahead and provide that evidence.

Ok. We could do this back and forth for days... I don't have a cute video of WC for you to examine... However I will give you a live example. I've been training WC with Randy Williams for a very long time and I'd be willing to fight you or any one of your friends to prove my point and let you video the event. To make it realistic lets use no set of rules, no time limits. We can do it on mats or a asphalt parking lot, I have both options for you. Also no limit on range of fighting... In CRCA WC we train standing all the way to the ground. I am 5'5, 135lbs. I am not trying to be a bad ass here, I'm not trying to threaten anyone either. I'm simply saying lets prove the point or shut this stupid thread down. If your not willing to fight then your words are either in vane or your just trying to **** people off. Here is the address: 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086. This is my academy address, I am the owner and we can both sign legal waivers before the proving begins.

[Sihing73]

It was the video of Randy Williams showing techniques that I thought were unrealistic.

Ah, the one where you were attempting to bait some members here on the forum, Joy for one as well.

The reason that was removed was that it was put up with an apparent purpose of baiting and deriding others.

Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss further.

No need to tie up this thread.

[Sihing73]

Ok. We could do this back and forth for days... I don't have a cute video of WC for you to examine... However I will give you a live example. I've been training WC with Randy Williams for a very long time and I'd be willing to fight you or any one of your friends to prove my point and let you video the event. To make it realistic lets use no set of rules, no time limits. We can do it on mats or a asphalt parking lot, I have both options for you. Also no limit on range of fighting... In CRCA WC we train standing all the way to the ground. I am 5'5, 135lbs. I am not trying to be a bad ass here, I'm not trying to threaten anyone either. I'm simply saying lets prove the point or shut this stupid thread down. If your not willing to fight then your words are either in vane or your just trying to **** people off. Here is the address: 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086. This is my academy address, I am the owner and we can both sign legal waivers before the proving begins.

Good Lord :rolleyes:

Listen, no one has the Holy Grail of WC. NO ONE!!!!
Each system\lineage\approach has someone who can make things work for them within the confines of how they train. WC is a very adaptable method of combat due to the fact that it is more reliant on "concepts" rather than techniques. Yes you need techniques to make concepts applicable, but it is how those techniques are applied which makes them work. Consider that with the basic similarity of the human body there is a finite method of techniques available. However, the concepts allow many variations on how things may be delivered.

We have several on this board who advocate a particular method or approach. I have no issue with that, however, the issue, for me at least, arises when one needs to resort to putting other methods down in order to promote ones view.

If you have a personal issue with someone then it is best to take it up with them by email, pm or in person. This forum really is not here for ones personal agenda...........not even mine ;)

[Sihing73]

Oh,

One other thing.............Wing Chun is an ecletic system...........always has been.
We seem to forget that today with all the arguing over what is and what is not Wing Chun. We seem to ignore the fact that the founders of WC drew on other arts to formulate the system we know today as WC. There are many variations with some families not doing forms but rather san sik, some may not even do chi sau. My point is that there is room at the table for everyone..............if you allow there to be.

Also, sometimes the idea of fighting is kind of pointless.

Take me for example: I can tout real world experience from time in Law Enforcement or growing up in a not so great area. But it really does not matter nor does it carry over into all arenas.

Since I train in Wing Chun but also train in Silat, Pekiti Tersia and now am exploring Hsing Yi as well, my approach in combat, while perhaps effective, would have some claiming that what I used was not Wing Chun. To me this argument is kind of funny since the point is to win a fight so I would prefer to use what I find works. Bottom line to me is that I want to go home at the end of the day and I really do not care how I do it. Then again, common sense goes a long way in avoiding situations where you would need to test your combat skills. Most of us live in areas where we do not need to fight our way out of the house every day.........if I did then perhaps I would utilize something else.......maybe a tech 9 lol.

Kev you will like this ;)

Did not the great WSL warn us not to become slaves to the system?
My point is that most of the online bickering we do and the posting of challengs is pointless and immature. And yes, I have done the same in my time as well so I speak from experience. I believe most of us would get along fine in person. Of course then we would not have keyboards and the net to hide behind either.

[k gledhill]

Oh,

One other thing.............Wing Chun is an ecletic system...........always has been.
We seem to forget that today with all the arguing over what is and what is not Wing Chun. We seem to ignore the fact that the founders of WC drew on other arts to formulate the system we know today as WC. There are many variations with some families not doing forms but rather san sik, some may not even do chi sau. My point is that there is room at the table for everyone..............if you allow there to be.

Also, sometimes the idea of fighting is kind of pointless.

Take me for example: I can tout real world experience from time in Law Enforcement or growing up in a not so great area. But it really does not matter nor does it carry over into all arenas.

Since I train in Wing Chun but also train in Silat, Pekiti Tersia and now am exploring Hsing Yi as well, my approach in combat, while perhaps effective, would have some claiming that what I used was not Wing Chun. To me this argument is kind of funny since the point is to win a fight so I would prefer to use what I find works. Bottom line to me is that I want to go home at the end of the day and I really do not care how I do it. Then again, common sense goes a long way in avoiding situations where you would need to test your combat skills. Most of us live in areas where we do not need to fight our way out of the house every day.........if I did then perhaps I would utilize something else.......maybe a tech 9 lol.

Kev you will like this ;)

Did not the great WSL warn us not to become slaves to the system?
My point is that most of the online bickering we do and the posting of challengs is pointless and immature. And yes, I have done the same in my time as well so I speak from experience. I believe most of us would get along fine in person. Of course then we would not have keyboards and the net to hide behind either.

CZ 75 is my choice ;) I still use the VT methods :D

[LaRoux]

Ah, the one where you were attempting to bait some members here on the forum, Joy for one as well. .

I can understand how you might have thought that and felt that posting that clip in that thread was inappropriate.

Would it be appropriate to make my comments on the specifics of that video in this thread?

[LaRoux]

Ok. We could do this back and forth for days... I don't have a cute video of WC for you to examine... However I will give you a live example. I've been training WC with Randy Williams for a very long time and I'd be willing to fight you or any one of your friends to prove my point and let you video the event. To make it realistic lets use no set of rules, no time limits. We can do it on mats or a asphalt parking lot, I have both options for you. Also no limit on range of fighting... In CRCA WC we train standing all the way to the ground. I am 5'5, 135lbs. I am not trying to be a bad ass here, I'm not trying to threaten anyone either. I'm simply saying lets prove the point or shut this stupid thread down. If your not willing to fight then your words are either in vane or your just trying to **** people off. Here is the address: 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086. This is my academy address, I am the owner and we can both sign legal waivers before the proving begins.

Hi Matt,

I think most people realize, if your "techniques" actually worked, you could simply post the clips online of those techniques being used in full contact situations for everyone to see instead of issuing empty tough guy internet keyboard challenges

[LaRoux]

personally I think this clip is more reflective of the alledged MT guy's lack of ability than the alledged wing chun guy. The MT guy was tentative and lacked lateral movement. The WC guy did what we see in so many clips where the WC guy ends up getting KO'd and simply charged forward striking. I will agree though that the WC guy controlled the distance really well, took the initiative and kept up the pressure making it difficult for his opponent.

So, maybe you could find just one example of a wing chun guy using his techniques against someone with ability.

I find it interesting that on the few instances in which there is evidence for people using their wing chun in full contact applications, so many other wing chun guys either say they weren't using wing chun or the other guy wasn't very good.

[Sihing73]

I can understand how you might have thought that and felt that posting that clip in that thread was inappropriate.

Would it be appropriate to make my comments on the specifics of that video in this thread?

Absolutely, as long as it does not degrade into chest beating and name calling.

We have far too much of that here already ;)

I find that a sprited discussion is a good thing. Even when I do not agree I sometimes learn something or get a new perspective. Then again those who know me will attest to my stubborn streak. :D I often will make a technique work just by wearing the opponent down. They are better but I stay in there longer...............kind of like my last marriage :o

[LaRoux]

Absolutely, as long as it does not degrade into chest beating and name calling.

OK, thanks.

This clip is what I consider to be a good example of many of the techniques that I consider to be unrealistic.

Clip showing mostly unrealistic techniques. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni2eIdGwzk)


Since I think the majority of them won't work, I will focus instead on the few I believe could be pulled off.

1:14 the blocked punch
1:38 the head butt (although, you'd need to get there in a much more realistic manner than what was shown in that clip)
2:05 the guillotine choke (although the set up to that was unrealistic)
3:45 the parry of the jab
9:47 stepping off line of the roundhouse kick followed by the inside thigh kick

Other than those, most of the techniques shown there are not going to be functional in full contact application.

[jimhalliwell]

OK, thanks.

This clip is what I consider to be a good example of many of the techniques that I consider to be unrealistic.

Clip showing mostly unrealistic techniques. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni2eIdGwzk)


Since I think the majority of them won't work, I will focus instead on the few I believe could be pulled off.

1:14 the blocked punch
1:38 the head butt (although, you'd need to get there in a much more realistic manner than what was shown in that clip)
2:05 the guillotine choke (although the set up to that was unrealistic)
3:45 the parry of the jab
9:47 stepping off line of the roundhouse kick followed by the inside thigh kick

Other than those, most of the techniques shown there are not going to be functional in full contact application.

Hi

I think all this work that Randy is doing in the vid would work really well as long as the guy your fighting has one arm! In my opinion its just not practical and no use at all. I just cant imagine doing a Bong against that Jab the following punches would take your teeth out.In my opinion this **** will get you hurt in a real situation! if you want to visit fantasy island for a while then enjoy! Ask yourself could you use these techniques in a street fight? for me the answer is no.

Jim.

[Robinhood]

OK, thanks.

This clip is what I consider to be a good example of many of the techniques that I consider to be unrealistic.

Clip showing mostly unrealistic techniques. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni2eIdGwzk)


Since I think the majority of them won't work, I will focus instead on the few I believe could be pulled off.

1:14 the blocked punch
1:38 the head butt (although, you'd need to get there in a much more realistic manner than what was shown in that clip)
2:05 the guillotine choke (although the set up to that was unrealistic)
3:45 the parry of the jab
9:47 stepping off line of the roundhouse kick followed by the inside thigh kick

Other than those, most of the techniques shown there are not going to be functional in full contact application.

I couldn't even watch more than a couple minutes of that.

Wow, no wonder wc is always getting slammed.

[LaRoux]

Hi

I think all this work that Randy is doing in the vid would work really well as long as the guy your fighting has one arm! In my opinion its just not practical and no use at all. I just cant imagine doing a Bong against that Jab the following punches would take your teeth out.In my opinion this **** will get you hurt! in a real situation if you want to visit fantasy island for a while then enjoy!

Jim.

There are many examples of a bong type motion being used successfully to block or redirect strikes. The movement in that video is much like the instinctive flinch response that naturally comes out in full contact settings.

I think that is one of the few techs there that actually would have a chance of working. The follow up after that motion is where the fantasy starts to set in.

[jimhalliwell]

There are many examples of a bong type motion being used successfully to block or redirect strikes. The movement in that video is much like the instinctive flinch response that naturally comes out in full contact settings.

I think that is one of the few techs there that actually would have a chance of working.

There may be examples but answer this why did Randy not punch the guy that was throwing a punch at him??? no instead he throws a negative bong at him instead! bet that hurt him.

Jim.

[LaRoux]

There may be examples but answer this why did Randy not punch the guy that was throwing a punch at him???.

There's nothing wrong with a purely defensive technique. Not every punch is best answered with another punch. Sometimes the best answer is to be be defensive. There are hundreds of thousands of examples (more than likely millions) of this principle being used over the years in all types of settings.

[Robinhood]

There may be examples but answer this why did Randy not punch the guy that was throwing a punch at him??? no instead he throws a negative bong at him instead! bet that hurt him.

Jim.

Yes, not really an efficient use of bong, only a delay of action .

[jimhalliwell]

Not every punch is best answered with another punch. Sometimes the best answer is to be be defensive. There are hundreds of thousands of examples (more than likely millions) of this principle being used over the years in all types of settings.


Hi

No its not!the best answer imo of course is not to be defensive. The best defensive action for me is to attack his attack and remove his teeth! this tends to stop his attack.

Jim

[LaRoux]

Hi

No its not!the best answer imo of course is not to be defensive. The best defensive action for me is to attack his attack and remove his teeth! this tends to stop his attack.

Jim

If you don't have defense, you are missing half the tools. Again, there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of examples of how having defense is important.

[jimhalliwell]

If you don't have defense, you are missing half the tools. Again, there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of examples of how having defense is important.


Hi

Yes I have defense i operate through training with my centre closed so I can concentrate on my attack!

Cheers Jim.

[Robinhood]

Hi

No its not!the best answer imo of course is not to be defensive. The best defensive action for me is to attack his attack and remove his teeth! this tends to stop his attack.

Jim

In your dreams it probably works great.

Now back to reality, wakeup.

[LaRoux]

Hi

Yes I have defense i operate through training with my centre closed so I can concentrate on my attack!

Cheers Jim.

The problem with that approach is when you come across someone with a better attack and then you've go no other defensive skills to fall back on.

[jimhalliwell]

In your dreams it probably works great.

Now back to reality, wakeup.

Ok so i best start getting my bong ready to block long range punches then! lol

Jim

[Robinhood]

Hi

Yes I have defense i operate through training with my centre closed so I can concentrate on my attack!

Cheers Jim.


Whenever you attack, you are open and committed, it is best to attack only when your opponent can't respond.

[CRCAVA]

Hi Matt,

I think most people realize, if your "techniques" actually worked, you could simply post the clips online of those techniques being used in full contact situations for everyone to see instead of issuing empty tough guy internet keyboard challenges

LaRoux, what makes my comment "Empty"? I told you I don't have video of the techniques working in a fight... so lets make one. I'm not trying to be a tough guy, and its not a keyboard challenge. Here is the full deal: I have been in contact with Sifu Randy Williams about the subject and this is the proposal and my "full" information.

1. Sifu Randy Williams will pay in full your flight cost to travel to King William VA to make this proving video happen.
2. When you get here you can choose to fight myself (John Simons) or Sifu Randy Williams. Again your choice.
3. When you get here you can film the event yourself or I can provide a filmographer for you.
4. You can choose any one of the "Unrealistic" techniques from the Randy Williams video and Sifu Williams or I have to use it on you in the fight video we make with you.

My Info:
Name: John Simons III
Age: 28
Weight: 135lbs
Height: 5'5
Address: Odyssey Martial Arts Academy/CRCA Virginia 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086
Email: OdysseyMMA1@aol.com
Phone:804-928-5995
Background: CRCA Wing Chun Gung Fu and MMA.

In closing, if you do not except this formal invitation to prove our point with CRCA then everything you say from this point forward should be considered weak and cowardly. You future post would be completely in vane. I look forward to you response... You name is "Defender of the truth"??? Let's defend it:-)

[jimhalliwell]

Whenever you attack, you are open and committed, it is best to attack only when your opponent can't respond.


I said before attack his attack!
You may have missed that

Jim.

[jimhalliwell]

LaRoux, what makes my comment "Empty"? I told you I don't have video of the techniques working in a fight... so lets make one. I'm not trying to be a tough guy, and its not a keyboard challenge. Here is the full deal: I have been in contact with Sifu Randy Williams about the subject and this is the proposal and my "full" information.

1. Sifu Randy Williams will pay in full your flight cost to travel to King William VA to make this proving video happen.
2. When you get here you can choose to fight myself (John Simons) or Sifu Randy Williams. Again your choice.
3. When you get here you can film the event yourself or I can provide a filmographer for you.
4. You can choose any one of the "Unrealistic" techniques from the Randy Williams video and Sifu Williams or I have to use it on you in the fight video we make with you.

My Info:
Name: John Simons III
Age: 28
Weight: 135lbs
Height: 5'5
Address: Odyssey Martial Arts Academy/CRCA Virginia 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086
Email: OdysseyMMA1@aol.com
Phone:804-928-5995
Background: CRCA Wing Chun Gung Fu and MMA.

In closing, if you do not except this formal invitation to prove our point with CRCA then everything you say from this point forward should be considered weak and cowardly. You future post would be completely in vane. I look forward to you response... You name is "Defender of the truth"??? Let's defend it:-)

Jesus I dont think im going to sleep tonight!

My last word also is anyone thinking that the best response to a punch is bong sau then they are wrong! hey its only my opinion.

Jim.

[Robinhood]

I said before attack his attack!
You may have missed that

Jim.

OK, missed that, but you still need defense before offense, not force against force , the best is when defense and offense almost at same time , defense to offense , no extra move.

[CRCAVA]

LaRoux, what makes my comment "Empty"? I told you I don't have video of the techniques working in a fight... so lets make one. I'm not trying to be a tough guy, and its not a keyboard challenge. Here is the full deal: I have been in contact with Sifu Randy Williams about the subject and this is the proposal and my "full" information.

1. Sifu Randy Williams will pay in full your flight cost to travel to King William VA to make this proving video happen.
2. When you get here you can choose to fight myself (John Simons) or Sifu Randy Williams. Again your choice.
3. When you get here you can film the event yourself or I can provide a filmographer for you.
4. You can choose any one of the "Unrealistic" techniques from the Randy Williams video and Sifu Williams or I have to use it on you in the fight video we make with you.

My Info:
Name: John Simons III
Age: 28
Weight: 135lbs
Height: 5'5
Address: Odyssey Martial Arts Academy/CRCA Virginia 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086
Email: OdysseyMMA1@aol.com
Phone:804-928-5995
Background: CRCA Wing Chun Gung Fu and MMA.

In closing, if you do not except this formal invitation to prove our point with CRCA then everything you say from this point forward should be considered weak and cowardly. You future post would be completely in vane. I look forward to you response... You name is "Defender of the truth"??? Let's defend it:-)

Jim Halliwell, We extend the same invitation to you if your up for it. All the details are quoted above.

[Robinhood]

LaRoux, what makes my comment "Empty"? I told you I don't have video of the techniques working in a fight... so lets make one. I'm not trying to be a tough guy, and its not a keyboard challenge. Here is the full deal: I have been in contact with Sifu Randy Williams about the subject and this is the proposal and my "full" information.

1. Sifu Randy Williams will pay in full your flight cost to travel to King William VA to make this proving video happen.
2. When you get here you can choose to fight myself (John Simons) or Sifu Randy Williams. Again your choice.
3. When you get here you can film the event yourself or I can provide a filmographer for you.
4. You can choose any one of the "Unrealistic" techniques from the Randy Williams video and Sifu Williams or I have to use it on you in the fight video we make with you.

My Info:
Name: John Simons III
Age: 28
Weight: 135lbs
Height: 5'5
Address: Odyssey Martial Arts Academy/CRCA Virginia 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086
Email: OdysseyMMA1@aol.com
Phone:804-928-5995
Background: CRCA Wing Chun Gung Fu and MMA.

In closing, if you do not except this formal invitation to prove our point with CRCA then everything you say from this point forward should be considered weak and cowardly. You future post would be completely in vane. I look forward to you response... You name is "Defender of the truth"??? Let's defend it:-)


I don't think you need to go to all that trouble ,here us a clip that already shows it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRYHOA_8aXA.

[jimhalliwell]

Jim Halliwell, We extend the same invitation to you if your up for it. All the details are quoted above.

If i had a problem with Randy he would have met me already.im not a fan of his work so he will have to get over that. As per you dont even know you and dont want to. Ta.
Jim

[CRCAVA]

Yeah thats what I thought... Oh well maybe LaRoux will step up..

[jimhalliwell]

Yeah thats what I thought... Oh well maybe LaRoux will step up..

Step up to what? We have seen the obassi video!

[CRCAVA]

That video is a joke. It proves nothing at all. If thats all you have is that video to go off of you really are clueless.. I think it is adorable how cozy and comfortable you guys are sitting behind your computer talking crap... I made an offer to Halliwell & LaRoux.. Accept or Decline there is no in the middle.

[LaRoux]

That video is a joke. It proves nothing at all. If thats all you have is that video to go off of you really are clueless.. I think it is adorable how cozy and comfortable you guys are sitting behind your computer talking crap... I made an offer to Halliwell & LaRoux.. Accept or Decline there is no in the middle.

Check your private messages. I will be expecting to hear from you shortly. Otherwise, that will make everything you say irrelevant.

[jimhalliwell]

That video is a joke. It proves nothing at all. If thats all you have is that video to go off of you really are clueless.. I think it is adorable how cozy and comfortable you guys are sitting behind your computer talking crap... I made an offer to Halliwell & LaRoux.. Accept or Decline there is no in the middle.

Cant take any critique then?
You sound like a very bad hong kong movie.
Your correct about one thing the video is a joke in so many ways.

[CRCAVA]

Why go private? You want to bash Randy in public... LaRoux sent me a PM wanting me to come to CA to fight... If you pay for Sifu Williams & I to travel lets do it. Lets do the challenge at Gene LeBell's gym in Burbank. Do we have a deal LaRoux?

[LaRoux]

Yeah thats what I thought... Oh well maybe LaRoux will step up..

Hi John,

Here's a better idea. Instead of one of us flying across the world and spending a bunch of time and money just to prove a point, why don't you simply prove your point by posting a video of yourself doing some of these techniques in full contact situations.

According to your bio, you are "supposedly" an MMA fighter. It would be a very simple thing for you to do to simply show some of these techniques in some full contact matches being used by your or your fighters.

Very quick, very simple and to the point. Then everything is solved.

How about it?

[CRCAVA]

Halliwell - let me get this straight without insults or bringing in others to distract attention from the matter at hand, that's a decline then?

[CRCAVA]

LaRoux, same thing. Without adding more smoke and mirrors to distract from the issue at hand, that's a decline then?

[jimhalliwell]

Hi John,

Here's a better idea. Instead of one of us flying across the world and spending a bunch of time and money just to prove a point, why don't you simply prove your point by posting a video of yourself doing some of these techniques in full contact situations.

According to your bio, you are "supposedly" an MMA fighter. It would be a very simple thing for you to do to simply show some of these techniques in some full contact matches being used by your or your fighters.

Very quick, very simple and to the point. Then everything is solved.

How about it?

I have decided that a want hair like randy! John can you please e mail with details of his shop.It may on me be a lost cause but im willing to try anything.

[LaRoux]

LaRoux, same thing. Without adding more smoke and mirrors to distract from the issue at hand, that's a decline then?


Why go private? You want to bash Randy in public... LaRoux sent me a PM wanting me to come to CA to fight... If you pay for Sifu Williams & I to travel lets do it. Lets do the challenge at Gene LeBell's gym in Burbank. Do we have a deal LaRoux?

You want to make challenges? Fine with me, but I'm sure not traveling or paying for anything. If you want to show up and fight at Gene's gym, I can probably work something out for you, as long as Gene is OK with having an NHB challenge match at his facility.

I'm assuming you are going to be OK with fighting a pro MMA fighter who is about 185 or so, correct?

[CRCAVA]

LaRoux what is your full real name and where are you from? Gene and Gokor go way back with Sifu Williams.. It will be fine.

[LaRoux]

Hi John,

Here's a better idea. Instead of one of us flying across the world and spending a bunch of time and money just to prove a point, why don't you simply prove your point by posting a video of yourself doing some of these techniques in full contact situations.

According to your bio, you are "supposedly" an MMA fighter. It would be a very simple thing for you to do to simply show some of these techniques in some full contact matches being used by your or your fighters.

Very quick, very simple and to the point. Then everything is solved.

How about it?


LaRoux, same thing. Without adding more smoke and mirrors to distract from the issue at hand, that's a decline then?

Kind weird that a guy who supposedly competes in MMA and supposedly trains MMA fighters wouldn't already have a bunch of clips of these things working if they did work.

After all, in integral part of both fighting and coaching is detailed analysis of the videos from those fights.

Something is definitely fishy here.

[LaRoux]

LaRoux what is your full real name and where are you from? Gene and Gokor go way back with Sifu Williams.. It will be fine.

Don't worry about my name. That's not really important. I could be anybody.

The important thing will be you attempting proving those specific techniques against a real fighter. I think I can probably make that happen if you want to travel.

As far as Gene and Gokor endorsing Randy and his techniques, something else seems kind of fishy. I don't remember any of Gokor's fighters in MMA ever using one of the unworkable techniques he was showing in that video.

[Robinhood]

Cant take any critique then?
You sound like a very bad hong kong movie.
Your correct about one thing the video is a joke in so many ways.

Now this is entertainment, sounds like someone might have " little man syndrome",

can you find someone that small that he can play with ?

[LaRoux]

Kind weird that a guy who supposedly competes in MMA and supposedly trains MMA fighters wouldn't already have a bunch of clips of these things working if they did work.

After all, in integral part of both fighting and coaching is detailed analysis of the videos from those fights.

Something is definitely fishy here.


Oh, never mind, I now see you have no background in any kind of competition, MMA or grappling. I can see why you believe in those nonsense techniques.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ok this isn't any of my business, but LaRoux, you want to fix up a 135 pounder with a 185 pro? Why not a 135 pound amateur, unless of course CRCAVA is also pro...

[CRCAVA]

LaRoux, what makes my comment "Empty"? I told you I don't have video of the techniques working in a fight... so lets make one. I'm not trying to be a tough guy, and its not a keyboard challenge. Here is the full deal: I have been in contact with Sifu Randy Williams about the subject and this is the proposal and my "full" information.

1. Sifu Randy Williams will pay in full your flight cost to travel to King William VA to make this proving video happen.
2. When you get here you can choose to fight myself (John Simons) or Sifu Randy Williams. Again your choice.
3. When you get here you can film the event yourself or I can provide a filmographer for you.
4. You can choose any one of the "Unrealistic" techniques from the Randy Williams video and Sifu Williams or I have to use it on you in the fight video we make with you.

My Info:
Name: John Simons III
Age: 28
Weight: 135lbs
Height: 5'5
Address: Odyssey Martial Arts Academy/CRCA Virginia 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086
Email: OdysseyMMA1@aol.com
Phone:804-928-5995
Background: CRCA Wing Chun Gung Fu and MMA.

In closing, if you do not except this formal invitation to prove our point with CRCA then everything you say from this point forward should be considered weak and cowardly. You future post would be completely in vane. I look forward to you response... You name is "Defender of the truth"??? Let's defend it:-)

You either want to fight or you don't... I dont have your video you want but we can make one... Its up to you. So unless you respond with except or decline... Im done with you and you can shut up about Sifu Randy Williams.

[LaRoux]

You either want to fight or you don't... I dont have your video you want but we can make one... Its up to you. So unless you respond with except or decline... Im done with you and you can shut up about Sifu Randy Williams.



I accept your surrender.

[LaRoux]

Ok this isn't any of my business, but LaRoux, you want to fix up a 135 pounder with a 185 pro? Why not a 135 pound amateur, unless of course CRCAVA is also pro...

He wants to fight me or my "friends". 185 is the lowest we have right now.

It's a moot point, however. He just surrendered.

[LaRoux]

John,

You seem to have a variety of videos linked to your school. Some of them are actually realistic showing techniques working in a live setting. None of them, however, show any of those techniques working.

Here's little friendly advice for you. First of all if you don't like people criticizing techniques saying they don't work, instead of making tough-guy keyboard challenges, simply show some evidence for those techniques working in the context of the things you are doing.

Secondly, put on your thinking cap for a second. Think about why you don't see a single one of these techniques actually being used in your "live" situations. After all, you are teaching them. If they worked, there should be some evidence of them being used successfully. Even you weren't able to use them. Think about that.

[GlennR]

personally I think this clip is more reflective of the alledged MT guy's lack of ability than the alledged wing chun guy. The MT guy was tentative and lacked lateral movement. The WC guy did what we see in so many clips where the WC guy ends up getting KO'd and simply charged forward striking. I will agree though that the WC guy controlled the distance really well, took the initiative and kept up the pressure making it difficult for his opponent.

Perfect summary

[LaRoux]

LaRoux, what makes my comment "Empty"? I told you I don't have video of the techniques working in a fight... so lets make one. I'm not trying to be a tough guy, and its not a keyboard challenge. Here is the full deal: I have been in contact with Sifu Randy Williams about the subject and this is the proposal and my "full" information.

1. Sifu Randy Williams will pay in full your flight cost to travel to King William VA to make this proving video happen.
2. When you get here you can choose to fight myself (John Simons) or Sifu Randy Williams. Again your choice.
3. When you get here you can film the event yourself or I can provide a filmographer for you.
4. You can choose any one of the "Unrealistic" techniques from the Randy Williams video and Sifu Williams or I have to use it on you in the fight video we make with you.

My Info:
Name: John Simons III
Age: 28
Weight: 135lbs
Height: 5'5
Address: Odyssey Martial Arts Academy/CRCA Virginia 694 Sharon Road King William VA 23086
Email: OdysseyMMA1@aol.com
Phone:804-928-5995
Background: CRCA Wing Chun Gung Fu and MMA.

In closing, if you do not except this formal invitation to prove our point with CRCA then everything you say from this point forward should be considered weak and cowardly. You future post would be completely in vane. I look forward to you response... You name is "Defender of the truth"??? Let's defend it:-)

Hi John,

I do have to admit that I am kind of intrigued by this offer. How long would this offer be good for? Is this an indefinite thing or do you have some kind of time limit on this? How much notice would you need for this?

[CRCAVA]

Hi John,

I do have to admit that I am kind of intrigued by this offer. How long would this offer be good for? Is this an indefinite thing or do you have some kind of time limit on this? How much notice would you need for this?

Give me your real name and I will give you all the time you need. My guess is you are busy looking for a friend to fight on your behalf.

[LaRoux]

Give me your real name and I will give you all the time you need. My guess is you are busy looking for a friend to fight on your behalf.

Could one simply walk into your school unannounced and do this or would you need to be notified beforehand?

[desertwingchun2]

I am also intrigued. Years ago someone made a similar challenge to me and told me anytime I was in Dallas to look them up.

He didn't know I was going to be in Dallas (strictly coincidentally) the same week.

I made contact and told him I was in town. He still talked tough and gave me his address. When I was done with my business I had a coworker take me there at the specified time.

Turns out he gave me an address to a dry cleaner.

I hope you guys get together, beat the crap out of each other, and post the vids.

Good luck!!

[CRCAVA]

@desrtwingchun - My school ain't no dry cleaners, it's right where I told him. It's LaRoux who is trying to take me to the cleaners with his refusal to tell me his name haha

@LaRoux at least a couple of people walk into my school unnanounced per month. Most of them have signed contracts with me afterwards haha.

[desertwingchun2]

@desrtwingchun - My school ain't no dry cleaners, it's right where I told him. It's LaRoux who is trying to take me to the cleaners with his refusal to tell me his name haha

@LaRoux at least a couple of people walk into my school unnanounced per month. Most of them have signed contracts with me afterwards haha.

Nice!!

Please post a vid if this happens!!

[LaRoux]

@desrtwingchun - My school ain't no dry cleaners, it's right where I told him. It's LaRoux who is trying to take me to the cleaners with his refusal to tell me his name haha

@LaRoux at least a couple of people walk into my school unnanounced per month. Most of them have signed contracts with me afterwards haha.


Seems as if someone is trying to skirt the subject, which is techniques that work vs. those that don't by trying to make things personal and issuing tough-guy internet keyboard warrior challenges.

[CRCAVA]

seems "someone" is wearing a skirt after being too chicken to back up their words and to stand by what they say by using their real name...

[Ajna007]

As a WC "Newbie" I dont understand all this talk about Boang Sau? Firstly How can it be "Negative" I have never heard it referred to as such. Its a good solid Yang Block...I have never insulted anyone's school or Sifu/Sensei in my Life!!!! I think it shows Extremely Bad Form!!! Not only does it cause "Issues" but it demonstrates that people seem to have forgotten that Peace and Humility are Integral to the Martial Way...!!! tbh Talking Shizzle, Verbal/sparring on the net is pointless.. The "Usefulness" of ANY Technique is in its application...We can all pad up at the end of the day and, "Touch Gloves..." with a mutual respect.I am new to this forum so dont really want to wade into deep waters.... but i can be a bit of a gladfly! lol looking forward to adding my 2 cents worth in from time to time...Amitabha! CRCA UK

[LaRoux]

Absolutely, as long as it does not degrade into chest beating and name calling.

We have far too much of that here already ;)

I find that a sprited discussion is a good thing. Even when I do not agree I sometimes learn something or get a new perspective. Then again those who know me will attest to my stubborn streak. :D I often will make a technique work just by wearing the opponent down. They are better but I stay in there longer...............kind of like my last marriage :o

Sorry Sihing73.

I tried to start off keeping it to the subject at hand, but as you can see, the internet wannabe warriors have shown up with the name calling and chest beating and I think I got drawn into that also.

Maybe you can get rid of those parts and leave the relevant subject matter up?

[Ajna007]

Paper Tigers Always Blow Away in the Breeze...

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 DBZwuTo7zKM8&h=JAQFW7vGg ;)

[Bernard]

I think its safe to say that it's like a religion when it comes to martial art styles.

A person's religion is their belief structure and when one threatens someone's belief structure by saying something about their religion is false, all "hell" breaks loose. :D

Likewise, when someone threatens someone's belief structure regarding their chosen martial art by saying their techniques are unrealistic....

[Robinhood]

OK, thanks.

This clip is what I consider to be a good example of many of the techniques that I consider to be unrealistic.

Clip showing mostly unrealistic techniques. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni2eIdGwzk)


Since I think the majority of them won't work, I will focus instead on the few I believe could be pulled off.

1:14 the blocked punch
1:38 the head butt (although, you'd need to get there in a much more realistic manner than what was shown in that clip)
2:05 the guillotine choke (although the set up to that was unrealistic)
3:45 the parry of the jab
9:47 stepping off line of the roundhouse kick followed by the inside thigh kick

Other than those, most of the techniques shown there are not going to be functional in full contact application.

These videos always crack me up, anything will work when you know what's coming ahead of time, I wish one of the assistants would through something else when the guy is waiting for the punch or kick . I saw someone do that once and it was funny.

Most of these things will not work , because the guy is not going to tell you what he is going to throw, by the time you recognize the attack it is to late.

[Kellen Bassette]

Paper Tigers Always Blow Away in the Breeze...

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 DBZwuTo7zKM8&h=JAQFW7vGg ;)

That's some good stuff there. :P

[YouKnowWho]

I like to have "positive" attitude. I like the explaination at 5.05.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni2eIdGwzk

"Tan Shou along is not strong enough to block a hook punch. Pai Shou along is also not strong enough to block a hook punch. But combining both Tan Shou and Pai Shou, it will be strong enough to stop a hook punch."

The nice thing about the Pai Shou at your opponent's upper arm is you don't need to use much force, you can cancel out your opponent's punching power. To me, this is called to bring the fight into your opponent's territory (near his face instead of near your face). It's also called to prevent your opponent from generating more power and reduce his power from his source. It's very TCMA way of thinking.

Of course people may say that since you are using both arms to block your opponent's right arm, how about his left arm that can strike at your head. That's the beauty of the TCMA. Since you know ahead of the time this may happen (because you know there will be a "leak" on your right side), you can take advantage on it. All you need is to use your right arm to

1. block his left punching arm, wrap his left punching arm, turn your left arm into a left arm head lock on your opponent, or
2. block his left punching arm, turn your right blocking arm into a right arm head lock on your opponent.
3. wrap around your opponent's neck into a reverse head lock (guillotine).

In all cases, since both of your arms are inside of your opponent's arms, you will have advantage.

This short clip can explain what may happen when your opponent's left arm punches at your head and you apply the 1st solution. You can see the Tan Shou and Pai Shou (it's called "diagonal striking" in SC) used to block the right hook punch (or haymaker).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OZ2DByegHV0

[Hendrik]

These are totally non wing Chun. Not accord with the principle of WCK .



I like to have "positive" attitude. I like the explaination at 5.05.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni2eIdGwzk

"Tan Shou along is not strong enough to block a hook punch. Pai Shou along is also not strong enough to block a hook punch. But combining both Tan Shou and Pai Shou, it will be strong enough to stop a hook punch."

The nice thing about the Pai Shou at your opponent's upper arm is you don't need to use much force, you can cancel out your opponent's punching power. To me, this is called to bring the fight into your opponent's territory (near his face instead of near your face). It's also called to prevent your opponent from generating more power and reduce his power from his source. It's very TCMA way of thinking.

Of course people may say that since you are using both arms to block your opponent's right arm, how about his left arm that can strike at your head. That's the beauty of the TCMA. Since you know ahead of the time this may happen (because you know there will be a "leak" on your right side), you can take advantage on it. All you need is to use your right arm to

1. block his left punching arm, wrap his left punching arm, turn your left arm into a left arm head lock on your opponent, or
2. block his left punching arm, turn your right blocking arm into a right arm head lock on your opponent.
3. wrap around your opponent's neck into a reverse head lock (guillotine).

In all cases, since both of your arms are inside of your opponent's arms, you will have advantage.

This short clip can explain what may happen when your opponent's left arm punches at your head and you apply the 1st solution. You can see the Tan Shou and Pai Shou (it's called "diagonal striking" in SC) used to block the right hook punch (or haymaker).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ2DByegHV0

[YouKnowWho]

These are totally non wing Chun. Not accord with the principle of WCK .

I'm talking about "Tan Shou and Pai Shou combination" not what may happen after that. Will you consider to change your right Pai Shou into an elbow strike at your opponent's face be more WC like?

[Hendrik]

I'm talking about "Tan Shou and Pai Shou combination" not what may happen after that. Will you consider to change your right Pai Shou into an elbow strike at your opponent's face be more WC like?

1. That is wrong use of technics.
2. It is not accord with WCK principle.
3. It is crazy to use two hands to block one hand in the center line , being in a defensive position, totally open in one side and subject to other free attack. That cannot be wing Chun.

[YouKnowWho]

That cannot be wing Chun.

You have too much "style boundary" in your head. You "leak" can be your "bait" if you know how to use it.

[Hendrik]

You have too much "style boundary" in your head. You "leak" can be your "bait".

You are trying to use a hammer as saw. You are a sc guy, keep that way, so not mislead others.

[YouKnowWho]

You are trying to use a hammer as saw.

WC does not own Tan Shou and Pai Shou. Most of the TCMA systems all have it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm6RpwYELm0

[Hendrik]

WC does not own Tan Shou and Pai Shou. Most of the TCMA systems all have it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm6RpwYELm0


Just face it you have never learn wing Chun as it suppose to be.

[YouKnowWho]

Just face it you have never learn wing Chun as it suppose to be.
After all those time, our Hendrik still hasn't change a bit. All discussions with you will soon turn into "personal attack". Will it be possible for you to stop using "You don't know ..."?

[Hendrik]

After all those time, our Hendrik still hasn't change a bit. All discussions with you will soon turn into "personal attack". Will it be possible for you to stop using "You don't know ..."?


Ok ok, you know it all!

[LaRoux]

I like to have "positive" attitude. I like the explaination at 5.05.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni2eIdGwzk

"Tan Shou along is not strong enough to block a hook punch. Pai Shou along is also not strong enough to block a hook punch. But combining both Tan Shou and Pai Shou, it will be strong enough to stop a hook punch."

The nice thing about the Pai Shou at your opponent's upper arm is you don't need to use much force, you can cancel out your opponent's punching power. To me, this is called to bring the fight into your opponent's territory (near his face instead of near your face). It's also called to prevent your opponent from generating more power and reduce his power from his source. It's very TCMA way of thinking.

Of course people may say that since you are using both arms to block your opponent's right arm, how about his left arm that can strike at your head. That's the beauty of the TCMA. Since you know ahead of the time this may happen (because you know there will be a "leak" on your right side), you can take advantage on it. All you need is to use your right arm to

1. block his left punching arm, wrap his left punching arm, turn your left arm into a left arm head lock on your opponent, or
2. block his left punching arm, turn your right blocking arm into a right arm head lock on your opponent.
3. wrap around your opponent's neck into a reverse head lock (guillotine).

In all cases, since both of your arms are inside of your opponent's arms, you will have advantage.

This short clip can explain what may happen when your opponent's left arm punches at your head and you apply the 1st solution. You can see the Tan Shou and Pai Shou (it's called "diagonal striking" in SC) used to block the right hook punch (or haymaker).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OZ2DByegHV0

Either way, taking both hands off line like that is a great way to get KTFO.

That's one of the things that the wing chun guys tried to use in their fights against the Thais back in the 50's, 60's and 70's when they got destroyed by the Thai fighters. I used to have an old book that had pictures of one of the wing chun fighters doing that and getting hammered as a result (it also showed them using the low block sequence shown in the Randy Williams video and getting smashed because of that also).

[jimhalliwell]

These videos always crack me up, anything will work when you know what's coming ahead of time, I wish one of the assistants would through something else when the guy is waiting for the punch or kick . I saw someone do that once and it was funny.

Most of these things will not work , because the guy is not going to tell you what he is going to throw, by the time you recognize the attack it is to late.


Hi

I am totally in agreement with you on this one. When you know whats coming you can break dance before the known attack hits! (if you can break dance that is).
Its nonsense as far as i am concerned. Now randy obviously has his supporters so he must be good somewhere I suppose im just not seeing it! If his Wing Chun is practical why not put up a video that reflects this as i don't think this one does at all?

Jim.

edit PS Hendrick have you a link to anything that shows you doing anything practical at all?

[WingChunNovice]

Techniques are pieces of motion strung together to teach position recognition, target and weapon availability. The idea of learning a progression type technique is to open your eyes to say; oh look I can do this from here, and hey that is open too and I understand I can insert this there, etc.

It is no different in any style or system.

To simply pull up a video and say this won’t work is bogus. The catalyst constantly changes in a fight and different pieces of different techniques will be required to be successful in a spontaneous environment. However you must learn and understand the motion first!

Randy Williams has done more for this art in a positive light than most people practicing and or teaching it. Why bash him? I have had hands on with him and he is an outstanding and talented teacher and practitioner.

My suggestion to the trolls who try to lenghten their lines by diminishing others is put some video examples of yourself and how you make the system work for you. If you have nothing positive to contribute why waste everybody's time with foolish banter? Let's see YOUR combat proven techniques that "work". Either that or accept John's generous offer. He clearly is willing to back up what he says.

In the arts,
MS

[Kellen Bassette]

Either way, taking both hands off line like that is a great way to get KTFO.

That's one of the things that the wing chun guys tried to use in their fights against the Thais back in the 50's, 60's and 70's when they got destroyed by the Thai fighters. I used to have an old book that had pictures of one of the wing chun fighters doing that and getting hammered as a result (it also showed them using the low block sequence shown in the Randy Williams video and getting smashed because of that also).

I think what you are referring to is the incident in the '60's, (may have been 70's) when 5 Kung Fu fighters lost their matches to Thai Boxers? I believe the fights were in Thailand?

I had not heard they were WC guys, (I hadn't heard anything about their styles besides them being "Kung Fu".) I also wasn't aware of many other fights over the '50's and '60's besides that one contest. That certainly doesn't mean they weren't happening, I just haven't heard that before.

It seems very unlikely to me that mainland Chinese would travel to Thailand to fight during that time, or vice versa. Were they from Hong Kong or Taiwan?

I'm interested if you have any links or info about this, as a fan of both Chinese and Thai arts. Just remember, to be reliable any info has to be from said period, or from a contemporary who was involved firsthand.

Unfortunately, lots of stuff like this has been repackaged and used to promote personal agendas in modern times. This really mucks up the historical facts.

Thanks!

[Vajramusti]

Someone posted this clip:
Wing Chun guy fighting with techniques that work. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8B6eNm2zs)


It shows an excellent example a clip of a wing chun guy using techniques to dominate a guy with Muay Thai training in a no rules standup fight.

What is instructive about this clip is that is it shows what techniques are used effectively to get the job done- mainly straight punches and (gasp!) round punches. Once again, pretty much the same techniques you see almost any time any kind of stylist starts to actually attempt to fight full contact.

What is also instructive is what he doesn't use- mainly those little chopping backfists, forearm throat strikes, "knee breaks", and arm holding techniques that so many "masters" of wing chun show in their demonstrations.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
La Roux-this thread is doing the usual thing of wandering all over the place. There are several problems in your post and I briefly touch on them and comment briefly.
1. "a wing chun guy's techniques" may or may not be the best examples of wing chun.You seem to assume knowledge of some "standard" techniques.
2. re "gasp"-"round punches". There can be round punches in wing chun-a key thing is what is direct at a given moment.
3/"chopping back fists"?-not good wing chun
4."masters"?-maybe to their own followers
5.a wing chun move may look similar to what is there in other styles but there is likely to be significant differences...we generally have two arms and two legs but the permutations and combinations of their usage are many and can be style specific..
------
6. Without appropriate development of wing chun stance training and wing chun conceptions pf structure and dynamics- wing chun techniques are diminished in their importance. Not very fruitful to comment on "technique" without understanding this.
7. Wing chun does not mean being frozen in postures but the developmental training is crucial for wing chun flow and fluidity.
8. Wing chun is not the only way to self defense or fighting. Individual levels of skill development
plus courage, determination and guts are also important variables. There is a huge amount of bad wing chun out there- and per Gresham's law on money the bad often drives out the good in the public eye. You tube is inundated with junk-though people cherry pick on this and other forums.
I don't think that this thread is informative. Egos and posturing has overwhelmed any semblance of discussion.

[Hendrik]

Hi

I am totally in agreement with you on this one. When you know whats coming you can break dance before the known attack hits! (if you can break dance that is).
Its nonsense as far as i am concerned. Now randy obviously has his supporters so he must be good somewhere I suppose im just not seeing it! If his Wing Chun is practical why not put up a video that reflects this as i don't think this one does at all?

Jim.

edit PS Hendrick have you a link to anything that shows you doing anything practical at all?


All I do is practical, I focus on the body of the art since there are already many who focus on the applications of the art.


Btw, I believe in discussing the science of the art instead of the person such as Randy here. Since the world is a causal system. There is issue on whether one do the right thing and how good one do the thing. Doing the right thing is the focus. Not how good one can do it, when it comes to science. IMHO

[LaRoux]

Techniques are pieces of motion strung together to teach position recognition, target and weapon availability. The idea of learning a progression type technique is to open your eyes to say; oh look I can do this from here, and hey that is open too and I understand I can insert this there, etc.

It is no different in any style or system.

The difference is that there is significant evidence for specific techniques that are taught in these other systems actually working in real-time settings.

[LaRoux]

All I do is practical, I focus on the body of the art since there are already many who focus on the applications of the art.

Without application there is no practicality.

[EternalSpring]

All I do is practical, I focus on the body of the art since there are already many who focus on the applications of the art.

Practical as what, a health exercise? I think when JimHalliwell asked about practicality, he meant in regards to WCK being a martial art.

He has a good point too. You seem to be really quick about disregarding stuff as not WCK. But what is WCK at it's core? A health exercise?A method of opera performance? a fighting art? If it's the last of the three, then showing true WCK would lie in showing and proving application more than appearance (since we already know outward appearance in movement can be misleading)

[LaRoux]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
La Roux-this thread is doing the usual thing of wandering all over the place. There are several problems in your post and I briefly touch on them and comment briefly.
1. "a wing chun guy's techniques" may or may not be the best examples of wing chun.You seem to assume knowledge of some "standard" techniques.
2. re "gasp"-"round punches". There can be round punches in wing chun-a key thing is what is direct at a given moment.
3/"chopping back fists"?-not good wing chun
4."masters"?-maybe to their own followers
5.a wing chun move may look similar to what is there in other styles but there is likely to be significant differences...we generally have two arms and two legs but the permutations and combinations of their usage are many and can be style specific..
------
6. Without appropriate development of wing chun stance training and wing chun conceptions pf structure and dynamics- wing chun techniques are diminished in their importance. Not very fruitful to comment on "technique" without understanding this.
7. Wing chun does not mean being frozen in postures but the developmental training is crucial for wing chun flow and fluidity.
8. Wing chun is not the only way to self defense or fighting. Individual levels of skill development
plus courage, determination and guts are also important variables. There is a huge amount of bad wing chun out there- and per Gresham's law on money the bad often drives out the good in the public eye. You tube is inundated with junk-though people cherry pick on this and other forums.
I don't think that this thread is informative. Egos and posturing has overwhelmed any semblance of discussion.

1. Other systems have standard techniques of which there is significant evidence for those techniques working in live settings.

2. That's good to know there are round punches, because many wing chun people seem to promote the idea that there aren't.

3. Chopping backfists (as well as back forearms and back open hands) sure seem to be shown in a lot of the clips the "masters" are showing.

5. Techniques should be judged by their application in live, resisting settings.

8. It could be productive. All people would need to do was to explain which wing chun techniques are viable and which are not and then show evidence of the ones they claim are viable.

[Kellen Bassette]

8. It could be productive. All people would need to do was to explain which wing chun techniques are viable and which are not and then show evidence of the ones they claim are viable.

This really isn't that cut and dry. I have been able to pull of several kicking techniques that would be impractical for most people. I have seen techniques I had written off as useless garbage applied brilliantly in sparring. Granted 99% of people couldn't do it, but the particular executor had a gift for landing unorthodox techniques.

How unrealistic and impractical is a flying triangle? Or jumping off the cage to do a spin kick? Yet we've seen them work.

The truth is that some techniques, not everyone will be able to pull off. Finding what works for you is a personal matter of trial and error against resisting partners. The problem is when the entire body of techniques from a system is assumed to work for an individual when he has never tested any of them under fire.

[Robinhood]

Hi

I am totally in agreement with you on this one. When you know whats coming you can break dance before the known attack hits! (if you can break dance that is).
Its nonsense as far as i am concerned. Now randy obviously has his supporters so he must be good somewhere I suppose im just not seeing it! If his Wing Chun is practical why not put up a video that reflects this as i don't think this one does at all?

Jim.

edit PS Hendrick have you a link to anything that shows you doing anything practical at all?

Ya, the problem usually comes from people trying to make a living selling stuff, they can post anything and people who don't know any better might believe them.

It is posted in public and is free and is worth just as much. If he wasn't trying to sell you something he would not even post that stuff.

There is a learning curve that every one goes through before they realize what is practical and what is not, hell, most of these guys might really believe what they are posting will work. But they should make it clearer to the general public, that you need to know ahead of time what the guy is going to throw at you for most of these techniques to work .

[LaRoux]

This really isn't that cut and dry. I have been able to pull of several kicking techniques that would be impractical for most people. I have seen techniques I had written off as useless garbage applied brilliantly in sparring. Granted 99% of people couldn't do it, but the particular executor had a gift for landing unorthodox techniques.

How unrealistic and impractical is a flying triangle? Or jumping off the cage to do a spin kick? Yet we've seen them work.

The truth is that some techniques, not everyone will be able to pull off. Finding what works for you is a personal matter of trial and error against resisting partners. The problem is when the entire body of techniques from a system is assumed to work for an individual when he has never tested any of them under fire.

There are always going to be outliers such as the "run up the side of the cage to deliver a knockout kick", but realistic styles have a base of techniques that have been shown to work again and again in a variety of settings.

Even the flying triangle has been used by many people successfully.

[LaRoux]

There is a learning curve that every one goes through before they realize what is practical and what is not, hell, most of these guys might really believe what they are posting will work. But they should make it clearer to the general public, that you need to know ahead of time what the guy is going to throw at you for most of these techniques to work .

The people who are teaching these techniques have either:
- Never actually done any kind of full contact fighting.
and/or
- Have done full contact fighting, but weren't smart enough to make the connection between what they used that worked and what they are teaching that doesn't work.
and/or
- Are just making stuff up so that they can sell things that are different than their competitors.

[Kellen Bassette]

Even the flying triangle has been used by many people successfully.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you wouldn't consider the flying triangle to be particularly practical or high percentage would you?

I think the important thing is to build your base off of the practical, high percentage stuff; then try to discover what you, personally, can and cannot make work in real sparring.

My own belief is everyone should have a couple unorthodox moves mastered for the element of surprise. If you can add, and pull off, a couple techs that aren't your run of the mill generic striking/grappling fare it helps give you an element of unpredictability.

[Bernard]

This really isn't that cut and dry. I have been able to pull of several kicking techniques that would be impractical for most people. I have seen techniques I had written off as useless garbage applied brilliantly in sparring. Granted 99% of people couldn't do it, but the particular executor had a gift for landing unorthodox techniques.

How unrealistic and impractical is a flying triangle? Or jumping off the cage to do a spin kick? Yet we've seen them work.

The truth is that some techniques, not everyone will be able to pull off. Finding what works for you is a personal matter of trial and error against resisting partners. The problem is when the entire body of techniques from a system is assumed to work for an individual when he has never tested any of them under fire.

This is VERY true. Sometimes the opportunity comes along to do something that would be considered unorthodox. Actually doing unorthodox things have the element of surprise that can give you the advantage.

I also find that certain things in kung fu requires a certain mindset that is different from most people and how they view things. For example, I notice a lot of people have a hard time picking up chin na (and other kung fu techniques). In the past, whether it was kung fu, aikido, jujitsu, my classmates noticed there was a difference in how I applied the joint locks compared to them.

No matter how I tried to explain it, most had a difficult time grasping the concept. I came to believe that if I teach kung fu I would have to try to get a student to change their perspective on certain things.

[LaRoux]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you wouldn't consider the flying triangle to be particularly practical or high percentage would you?

I think the important thing is to build your base off of the practical, high percentage stuff; then try to discover what you, personally, can and cannot make work in real sparring.

Agreed. The problem comes when you've got a system that doesn't have evidence for the majority of techniques working.

Then, when there is some evidence for certain techniques working, the instructors and students of the system can't even agree whether those techniques are actually from the system.

[LaRoux]

For example, I notice a lot of people have a hard time picking up chin na (and other kung fu techniques).

Maybe because those techniques are much less efficient and effective than the ones that are easier to pick up. Maybe the ones that are "easy" to pick up are easy because they actually work well.

[Hendrik]

Without application there is no practicality.


Wck application needs the body of the art .

[Bernard]

Maybe because those techniques are much less efficient and effective than the ones that are easier to pick up. Maybe the ones that are "easy" to pick up are easy because they actually work well.

No. Its not that. "Those techniques", once you understand the concept, are easy to pull off, but it requires a different mindset that most people have trouble with acquiring because well, people have a trouble changing in general.

Although I agree that most times the way the techniques are demonstrated won't work but with a little that's no problem as long as you can think for yourself.

[LaRoux]

No. Its not that. "Those techniques", once you understand the concept, are easy to pull off, but it requires a different mindset that most people have trouble with acquiring because well, people have a trouble changing in general.

What would that "different" mindset be?

[Bernard]

What would that "different" mindset be?

One of them is what Bruce Lee said about being "like water". Another would be that (especially in the case of qin na) most people's mind are in their hands. It should be whole body. No secret really, but your average guy seems to have trouble putting it all together.

Oh, and of course something that's common in CMA, a certain body sensitvity.

[LaRoux]

One of them is what Bruce Lee said about being "like water". Another would be that (especially in the case of qin na) most people's mind are in their hands. It should be whole body. No secret really, but your average guy seems to have trouble putting it all together.

Oh, and of course something that's common in CMA, a certain body sensitvity.

If you have to change a person's mindset to use a technique, it's not a very efficient or effective technique.

The high-percentage, effective techniques stand on their own and don't require a change of mindset. You don't have to change your mindset to learn a hook, a cross, a roundhouse kick, an arm bar, or heel hook.

Effective techniques don't require a specific mindset.

[Kellen Bassette]

If you have to change a person's mindset to use a technique, it's not a very efficient or effective technique.

The high-percentage, effective techniques stand on their own and don't require a change of mindset. You don't have to change your mindset to learn a hook, a cross, a roundhouse kick, an arm bar, or heel hook.

Effective techniques don't require a specific mindset.

All techniques require a certain mindset. Most people don't have the mindset it requires to engage in a full contact fight with another fighter.

Without a proper mindset you will not be able to move in and commit to your techniques. Once you are hit or under too much pressure you will not be able to deal with the circumstances.

[Robinhood]

One of them is what Bruce Lee said about being "like water". Another would be that (especially in the case of qin na) most people's mind are in their hands. It should be whole body. No secret really, but your average guy seems to have trouble putting it all together.

Oh, and of course something that's common in CMA, a certain body sensitvity.

Well you have just described the taboo internal concept, not very accepted in most forums, most people would rather force something to work, rather than let it work.

It is not as simple as just thinking different, but that is part of it.

It has to be conditioned into the body along with the mind together as one.

But anyway nice analogy, keep them coming.

[LaRoux]

All techniques require a certain mindset. Most people don't have the mindset it requires to engage in a full contact fight with another fighter. .

The only mindset required is the will to apply the technique. All the other "you have to be like water", "your mind can't be in your hands", etc are just excuses for inefficient techniques.

[Bernard]

If you have to change a person's mindset to use a technique, it's not a very efficient or effective technique.

The high-percentage, effective techniques stand on their own and don't require a change of mindset. You don't have to change your mindset to learn a hook, a cross, a roundhouse kick, an arm bar, or heel hook.

Effective techniques don't require a specific mindset.

Sure it does. Just because you learn how to throw a hook, doesn't mean you know how to use it. ;)

[LaRoux]

Well you have just described the taboo internal concept, not very accepted in most forums, most people would rather force something to work, rather than let it work.

Changing ones mindset in an attempt to make a technique work is forcing something to work.

Efficient, effective techniques such as the ones I listed above don't need to be forced to work.

[LaRoux]

Sure it does. Just because you learn how to throw a hook, doesn't mean you know how to use it. ;)

The only "mindset" needed is the practice over time in more and more realistic situations.

There is no substitute for practice.

[Kellen Bassette]

The only mindset required is the will to apply the technique. All the other "you have to be like water", "your mind can't be in your hands", etc are just excuses for inefficient techniques.

They are strategies and slogans. You know, "Position before submission," "Be light on your feet," "In and out," "Keep moving," "Fake low, go high"...ect.

[Robinhood]

If you have to change a person's mindset to use a technique, it's not a very efficient or effective technique.

The high-percentage, effective techniques stand on their own and don't require a change of mindset. You don't have to change your mindset to learn a hook, a cross, a roundhouse kick, an arm bar, or heel hook.

Effective techniques don't require a specific mindset.

Just because it is easy to learn, does not mean it is effective, if that was the case , everybody would be doing the same thing.

If its worth having , it wasn't easy to get.

[LaRoux]

Just because it is easy to learn, does not mean it is effective, if that was the case , everybody would be doing the same thing.

If its worth having , it wasn't easy to get.

Effective fighters do mostly the same things. It's the people with the ineffective stuff that come up with all the crazy, different stuff.

[Bernard]

The only mindset required is the will to apply the technique. All the other "you have to be like water", "your mind can't be in your hands", etc are just excuses for inefficient techniques.

Seems that's just an excuse one tells himself when he can't apply a certain technique. ;)


The only "mindset" needed is the practice over time in more and more realistic situations.



Practice with the wrong mindset gets you nowhere no matter how long you practice. :D

[Robinhood]

Changing ones mindset in an attempt to make a technique work is forcing something to work.

Efficient, effective techniques such as the ones I listed above don't need to be forced to work.

We are not talking about forcing anything.

I think your idea of mindset is different then what we are talking about.

Your mindset sounds like the power mindset, that's fine if you are stronger and faster than your opponent or physically even and he doing same easy effective moves you have described.

[LaRoux]

Seems that's just an excuse one tells himself when he can't apply a certain technique. ;)



Practice with the wrong mindset gets you nowhere no matter how long you practice. :D

Funny when proven, effective techniques such as arm bars, triangles, jabs, hooks, roundhouse kicks, knees, etc are taught there's no "having to change one's mindset". There is only learn it, practice it, and apply it.

Also funny when ineffective things like chi na are taught, all the spiritual, mindset shifting starts popping up.

[Bernard]

Funny when proven, effective techniques such as arm bars, triangles, jabs, hooks, roundhouse kicks, knees, etc are taught there's no "having to change one's mindset". There is only learn it, practice it, and apply it.

Also funny when ineffective things like chi na are taught, all the spiritual, mindset shifting starts popping up.

Nothing funny about it. Its just a truth in life. Some things are easier for the masses to pick up. If not, we would all be "enlightened" ;) and the world would be a better place. :D

[Kellen Bassette]

Perhaps we can look at this differently. What techniques, if any, do you consider useful/practical.

Since this is the Wing Chun thread, I suppose WC in particular, but also TCMA in general.

[LaRoux]

Nothing funny about it. Its just a truth in life. Some things are easier for the masses to pick up. If not, we would all be "enlightened" ;) and the world would be a better place. :D

This would be a good example of why so many TCMA's don't work very well compared to their more progressive counterparts.

The more progressive systems teach the things that are "easy" for the masses to pick up.

[LaRoux]

Perhaps we can look at this differently. What techniques, if any, do you consider useful/practical.

Since this is the Wing Chun thread, I suppose WC in particular, but also TCMA in general.

The same techniques you see over and over again in all styles that regularly pressure test their techniques in realistic, live settings.

[Kellen Bassette]

Funny when proven, effective techniques such as arm bars, triangles, jabs, hooks, roundhouse kicks, knees, etc are taught there's no "having to change one's mindset". There is only learn it, practice it, and apply it.

Also funny when ineffective things like chi na are taught, all the spiritual, mindset shifting starts popping up.

Chi na is not at all ineffective. First of all it's a huge basis of Judo and BJJ. Second of all; you and probably most TCMA guys as well, tend to have a misconception of what Chin na, in the sense your thinking of, is for.

Chi na is used ALL THE TIME, by military, police, bouncers, security, ect. Remember Kung Fu was a military art. Chi na is extremely effective in diffusing a fight before it starts or apprehending someone. When you square off to fight, or fists are flying, the time for Chi na has usually passed. It's like knowing the difference between handcuffs and a night stick.

People always demonstrate Chi Na unrealistically, because they don't understand when and how to apply it, or simply because it looks cool in demonstrations.

[Kellen Bassette]

The same techniques you see over and over again in all styles that regularly pressure test their techniques in realistic, live settings.

But do you feel many of these techniques are inherent to TCMA?

[LaRoux]

Chi na is not at all ineffective. First of all it's a huge basis of Judo and BJJ. Second of all; you and probably most TCMA guys as well, tend to have a misconception of what Chin na, in the sense your thinking of, is for.

Chi na is used ALL THE TIME, by military, police, bouncers, security, ect. Remember Kung Fu was a military art. Chi na is extremely effective in diffusing a fight before it starts or apprehending someone. When you square off to fight, or fists are flying, the time for Chi na has usually passed. It's like knowing the difference between handcuffs and a night stick.

People always demonstrate Chi Na unrealistically, because they don't understand when and how to apply it, or simply because it looks cool in demonstrations.

If you are considering chi na to be what is used in Judo and BJJ, then I would agree. This would be effective.

This is completely different than the chi na shown by the esoteric standing joint locks that are shown in so many videos that would not work against a resisting opponent.

[LaRoux]

But do you feel many of these techniques are inherent to TCMA?

They would be inherent only to the styles such as Sanda (if you want to consider that a style) and Shuai Jiao that regularly pressure test their techniques.

[Robinhood]

Effective fighters do mostly the same things. It's the people with the ineffective stuff that come up with all the crazy, different stuff.

I guess that depends on what you call effective and ineffective and the context it is applied in.

Effective and efficient to me is more of a ratio of amount of effort and power applied to give maximum result.

So context would be, where am I using this, in a ring with rules, in a bar with no rules....etc.

So if your context is ring, efficient almost goes right out the window, unless you get in a nice shot to the jaw. But so can he, so speed is key there.

So it comes down to endurance, If I throw all these shots that wear me out, will I be able to land that lucky shot before him and before I run out out of gas. ?

Not a good place to test effective stuff.

[LaRoux]

Not a good place to test effective stuff.

Where do you test your effective stuff?

[Robinhood]

Where do you test your effective stuff?

Where ever you want, but don't use rules, live resisting people would be my first choice.

[Kellen Bassette]

If you are considering chi na to be what is used in Judo and BJJ, then I would agree. This would be effective.

This is completely different than the chi na shown by the esoteric standing joint locks that are shown in so many videos that would not work against a resisting opponent.

Yes, most the videos and demonstrations of Chi Na are nonsense. The Japanese and Brazilians adapted the techniques and principles to work in specific grappling environments.

If you want to see what most people think of as Chinese Chi Na, being applied correctly, in real situations, your not going to see much of it in full contact fights. You'll see it all the time in news videos of police or military taking someone down and arresting them, or security personal throwing someone out of a building. That's what it was for and it was originally used by military and police.

In my opinion, people who were not experienced with its' purpose or simply didn't care, began doing those ridiculous Chi Na applications as self defense moves on unresisting opponents with their arms left out in the air. This probably began during peace times by instructors that never fought, or simply to look good for their students, or at demos.

Now in many, (probably most) places Chi Na gets passed on in this way and it is simply not how it was intended to be used.

[Kellen Bassette]

Where ever you want, but don't use rules, live resisting people would be my first choice.

The ring is an excellent place to test on live resisting opponents. There is also MMA and Vale Tudo. The rules in either of those venues are lenient enough to test the core of any martial art.

[Kellen Bassette]

They would be inherent only to the styles such as Sanda (if you want to consider that a style) and Shuai Jiao that regularly pressure test their techniques.

That's what I usually hear, but I think traditional northern Long Fist styles and CLF as well, share a lot of similarities to Sanda in application. People like to write off these traditional systems because they don't like some of their training methods; but when it comes down to applying technique, they aren't that different from Sanda. These systems are all capable of producing good sport fighters for kickboxing formats.

Do you disagree with my view here?

[Robinhood]

Where do you test your effective stuff?

Of coarse it might be hard to find someone that will be able to use no rules properly.
You don't just practice right off the bat using no rules.

But don't worry, you have to build to that level anyway.

You need to build up slowly, like anything in life, so as you become better and better you have removed some of your weaknesses , you remove some more rules, otherwise you will be any easy target for someone to exploit who is better at being effective.

Being thrown into a ring with gloves on does not fix your weaknesses, you will just learn to hide them better, but putting gloves on your hands will not teach you how to use your hands which can be more than 50% of your potential skill level.

[Robinhood]

This would be a good example of why so many TCMA's don't work very well compared to their more progressive counterparts.

The more progressive systems teach the things that are "easy" for the masses to pick up.


Chi na is very effective if you have the ability to use it, which is not easy to come by, but appreciated and useful if acquired.

Well if the masses can do it ,then I guess there is no advantage to learning easy stuff.

[LaRoux]

Where ever you want, but don't use rules, live resisting people would be my first choice.

Are you saying the techniques are different when you don't use rules? If so, which ones would be different?

[LaRoux]

That's what I usually hear, but I think traditional northern Long Fist styles and CLF as well, share a lot of similarities to Sanda in application. People like to write off these traditional systems because they don't like some of their training methods; but when it comes down to applying technique, they aren't that different from Sanda. These systems are all capable of producing good sport fighters for kickboxing formats.

Do you disagree with my view here?

I would agree, but only if they are training their techniques in a live manner against resisting opponents.

[LaRoux]

If you want to see what most people think of as Chinese Chi Na, being applied correctly, in real situations, your not going to see much of it in full contact fights. You'll see it all the time in news videos of police or military taking someone down and arresting them, or security personal throwing someone out of a building. That's what it was for and it was originally used by military and police.

Most of these situations are either compliant people being detained or multiple police/military using a technique against a resisting opponent (usually after tackling him to the ground).

You will rarely, if ever, see a law enforcement or military person in a one-on-one situation use standing chi na against a resisting person.

[LaRoux]

If you want to see what most people think of as Chinese Chi Na, being applied correctly, in real situations, your not going to see much of it in full contact fights. .

Why do you think that would be? Wouldn't it be advantageous to be able to use this in full contact fights if it actually worked?

[Robinhood]

Are you saying the techniques are different when you don't use rules? If so, which ones would be different?

They are only different depending on your level. If you can only use a hammer, you will try to make your hammer bigger, if you have a nail gun you don't worry about size of hammer...etc.

If you have the skill, you will take advantage of mistakes that your opponent will make that will make them weak and you strong. This can be done from different ways of applying physics to body alignment and position that create structural advantage that can be capitalized on.

If you poses the skill to deliver well controlled precise strikes or locks, you will strike and break parts that cause the most damage with least amount of effort and risk.

But I would like to add, that if you cannot utilize full body integration , you won't have a nail gun or be able to take advantage of body alignment mistakes on a level that will give you any kind of real advantage.

It is kind of like a car, until the engine is complete and running, you can't drive the car around.

[LaRoux]

They are only different depending on your level. If you can only use a hammer, you will try to make your hammer bigger, if you have a nail gun you don't worry about size of hammer...etc.

If you have the skill, you will take advantage of mistakes that your opponent will make that will make them weak and you strong. This can be done from different ways of applying physics to body alignment and position that create structural advantage that can be capitalized on.

If you poses the skill to deliver well controlled precise strikes or locks, you will strike and break parts that cause the most damage with least amount of effort and risk.

But I would like to add, that if you cannot utilize full body integration , you won't have a nail gun or be able to take advantage of body alignment mistakes on a level that will give you any kind of real advantage.

It is kind of like a car, until the engine is complete and running, you can't drive the car around.

Guess what? You can do all those things in a sporting environment.

[Robinhood]

Why do you think that would be? Wouldn't it be advantageous to be able to use this in full contact fights if it actually worked?

Most effective chin na moves are used on small joint locks, that are not allowed in full contact bouts, but still they take a high skill level to capture and use effectively.

LOL...Hey....Bruce Lee used one in that beginning fight scene in " enter the dragon" when he flipped the fat guy over before getting him in arm lock.

[LaRoux]

Most effective chin na moves are used on small joint locks, that are not allowed in full contact bouts, but still they take a high skill level to capture and use effectively.

Generally, they don't work.

Brazil used to have Vale Tudo matches in which the only rules were no biting. The only rules in the first three UFC's was no biting and no eye gouging.

In all the years of those, small joint locks never worked.



LOL...Hey....Bruce Lee used one in that beginning fight scene in " enter the dragon" when he flipped the fat guy over before getting him in arm lock.

That was a movie. Movies are not real.

[Robinhood]

Generally, they don't work.

Brazil used to have Vale Tudo matches in which the only rules were no biting. The only rules in the first three UFC's was no biting and no eye gouging.

In all the years of those, small joint locks never worked.




That was a movie. Movies are not real.

Like I said before, they work great, they take a long time to be able to use against resisting opponent. I would contend that most people who enter any kind of tournament are more concerned with endurance and not high skill level moves .

And look who won some of the early UFC 's, a 150 lb guy named Gracie who had a hi skill level.

I think small locks were still not allowed, but does not mean they don't work, only that no one was good at using them.

Like I said, only people that can't do it, think they don't work. Look at the Machida fight where he knocked out the veteran with a chicken kick, people would say they don't work too. It takes one guy using something , then other guys start using it.

[LaRoux]

Like I said before, they work great, they take a long time to be able to use against resisting opponent. I would contend that most people who enter any kind of tournament are more concerned with endurance and not high skill level moves .

Skill comes first. Endurance must be built upon skill. Without skill, endurance means nothing.

Most pro fighters who have retired and gotten out of shape are still light years ahead in term of being able to apply their skills compared to the average kwoon warrior.

[LaRoux]

And look who won some of the early UFC 's, a 150 lb guy named Gracie who had a hi skill level.

And guess what he used? He used proven, replicable skills that can be learned easily by anyone.

[LaRoux]

2:05 the guillotine choke (although the set up to that was unrealistic).

One more comment on the way the guillotine choke is applied in the "unrealistic" video (best seen in the slower demo at 2:23. Most people who have applied more than just a few guillotines successfully against resisting people know that you can't leave space the way that was shown there. The elbow needs to be much tighter into the neck. Leaving space makes it much easier to counter.

The first rule of any choke is to take all the space away around the neck.

[LaRoux]

I've been training WC with Randy Williams for a very long time

CRCAVA- supposedly, you are bjj black belt under Dave Camarillo. Do you not see all the holes in this "groundwork" video that Randy is demonstrating, as well as the RNC defense?

Randy Willams Groundwork Demo??!!?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g)

RNC Defense??!!?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLWTQEoV9Nk)

[Kellen Bassette]

I would agree, but only if they are training their techniques in a live manner against resisting opponents.

Absolutely. No martial art will have consistent success without this element.

[Kellen Bassette]

Most of these situations are either compliant people being detained or multiple police/military using a technique against a resisting opponent (usually after tackling him to the ground).

You will rarely, if ever, see a law enforcement or military person in a one-on-one situation use standing chi na against a resisting person.

But that's what those skills are for. Apprehending, detaining. They are military/police skills, not one on one fighting skills. I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but this is the nature of a lot of Chi na. Things have to be taken in their proper context.

Chi na can certainly be applied in fighting, but it's going to be from a grappling situation...it will tend towards Judo, BJJ style stuff...(there are also many Chinese techniques that are similar or the same as the Judo/BJJ techs, I'm just using that for a point of reference.)

Chin Na is a grappling art. You can apply some of it when grappling, but your not going to catch a punch out of the air and do a bunch of fancy crap on it.

Too often people are taking a simple military Kung Fu (skill) and trying to apply it out of context, (against someone trying to strike you.) Swimming and diving is also one of the 72 skills of Shaolin. Not because you need to swim to fight, because you may need it to escape cross country when things go bad in battle.

[PalmStriker]

This is VERY true. Sometimes the opportunity comes along to do something that would be considered unorthodox. Actually doing unorthodox things have the element of surprise that can give you the advantage.

I also find that certain things in kung fu requires a certain mindset that is different from most people and how they view things. For example, I notice a lot of people have a hard time picking up chin na (and other kung fu techniques). In the past, whether it was kung fu, aikido, jujitsu, my classmates noticed there was a difference in how I applied the joint locks compared to them.

No matter how I tried to explain it, most had a difficult time grasping the concept. I came to believe that if I teach kung fu I would have to try to get a student to change their perspective on certain things. :D I remember sparring years ago with a new partner over the course of a couple months keeping pretty much in using the same techniques/strategy throughout our sessions. At a point where we were both in check I threw a front snap kick to his abdomen, unblocked, to his surprise and astonishment. He had never seen me use a frontal kick before. Marine Vet, Blackbelt , Kuk sul wan. If I had been using frontal kicks, all along, there would have been no way I would not have been blocked.

[Robinhood]

Skill comes first. Endurance must be built upon skill. Without skill, endurance means nothing.

Most pro fighters who have retired and gotten out of shape are still light years ahead in term of being able to apply their skills compared to the average kwoon warrior.

I think you have that backwards , the more skill you have the less endurance you need, that endurance gives you a chance to develop skill.

Pro boxers have skill ,that is why they are pros, but that is boxing skill.

If Grace's moves were so easy to copy, maybe they aren't so high skilled moves, but I don't see his real skill copied yet, more of knock off imitations of his skill, but then again those are ground stuff not really the core of martial arts skills that are usually performed standing vertically.

[LaRoux]

I think you have that backwards , the more skill you have the less endurance you need, that endurance gives you a chance to develop skill.

Pro boxers have skill ,that is why they are pros, but that is boxing skill.


If Grace's moves were so easy to copy, maybe they aren't so high skilled moves, but I don't see his real skill copied yet, more of knock off imitations of his skill, but then again those are ground stuff not really the core of martial arts skills that are usually performed standing vertically.

You must be kidding. Maybe not, though, considering the fact that you thought grappling was not part of TCMA.

[GlennR]

I think you have that backwards , the more skill you have the less endurance you need, that endurance gives you a chance to develop skill.

Pro boxers have skill ,that is why they are pros, but that is boxing skill.

If Grace's moves were so easy to copy, maybe they aren't so high skilled moves, but I don't see his real skill copied yet, more of knock off imitations of his skill, but then again those are ground stuff not really the core of martial arts skills that are usually performed standing vertically.

Theygo hand in hand if you are competing.

In fact endurance and fitness would be the first priority in a competition.

Plenty of guys have lost simply because they gas out to a lesser skilled opponent

[LaRoux]

Theygo hand in hand if you are competing.

In fact endurance and fitness would be the first priority in a competition.

Plenty of guys have lost simply because they gas out to a lesser skilled opponent

Skill comes before conditioning. A very skilled but less conditioned fighter will almost always beat a poorly skilled, but highly conditioned competitor.

Many fight coaches who used to compete at high levels, but have been out of the game for a long time have lost significant conditioning. Pretty much any of these fight coaches can beat the young bucks when they are first starting out and don't have much skill but have good conditioning.

I saw an old tape of a non-conditioned, retired Muhammad Ali put a schooling on the at the time California boxing champ in a sparring match. Ali's skills were so much higher, he didn't need much conditioning to dominate the other fighter.

[GlennR]

Skill comes before conditioning. A very skilled but less conditioned fighter will almost always beat a poorly skilled, but highly conditioned competitor.

Many fight coaches who used to compete at high levels, but have been out of the game for a long time have lost significant conditioning. Pretty much any of these fight coaches can beat the young bucks when they are first starting out and don't have much skill but have good conditioning.

I saw an old tape of a non-conditioned, retired Muhammad Ali put a schooling on the at the time California boxing champ in a sparring match. Ali's skills were so much higher, he didn't need much conditioning to dominate the other fighter.

Competitors will generally be matched. It's very rare that a world champion will face somebody outside the top ten, so outside the rare "mismatches" all pro fighting starts and finishes with fitness.

Look at Bernard hopkins, about to fight for a title at 48 with a very good chance of winning and there is no one more skillful in th world outside maybe a mayweather, but as good as he is, he is a gym rat who hasn't changed his, extreme, fitness regime for years. He understands that skill soons falls apart when you're gassed.

You could point out cases for both skill v endurance, but at the end of the day both are required at elite

[CelticRedman]

With all of the back and forth in this thread I'm confused about a few things, mainly the original point of the thread. Maybe some of the folks can help me figure out a few things:

1. I've watched the videos mentioned (by LaRoux) including the "R. Williams-S. Obasi video he or someone else mentioned - I forgot - and was hoping for specifics on whether the techniques were considered ineffective for street (as opposed to MMA, "the ring, etc.) and whether or not street vs. ring makes a difference.

2. Are we talking about comparing WC vs. BJJ, Small joint locks vs. other things or what? Forgive my ignorance but I'm kind of lost in the conversation even after reading the entire thread.

3. I'm not loyal to any one system or man's methods, but I do have an affinity for martial arts that employ trapping, small joint locks and strikes. I do also have a background in both Japanese Jujutsu and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and understand their benefits and shortcomings in actual fights (if you want to consider several decades of law enforcement experience as well as decades of experience in various martial arts as an indicator of my "thought process). I'm wondering are we more concerned about our own beliefs vs. actual "proof of concept" here.

For the record, I am NOT a student of anyone mentioned in this thread I'm just trying to learn and understand. If anyone who can help me with that I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

Carlos

[CRCAVA]

CRCAVA- supposedly, you are bjj black belt under Dave Camarillo. Do you not see all the holes in this "groundwork" video that Randy is demonstrating, as well as the RNC defense?

Randy Willams Groundwork Demo??!!?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g)

RNC Defense??!!?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLWTQEoV9Nk)

I am a BJJ Black Belt through Dave Camarillo and I train BJJ 6 days a week. The Randy Williams CRCA Ground Fighting videos are great! They offer WC practitioners the ability to translate and better understand WC concepts on the ground. Is it BJJ? No... nor does Sifu Williams state it to be BJJ. It is a completely different approach to ground fighting than BJJ. I find it to be a beautiful complement to BJJ & MMA.

[Kellen Bassette]

Forgive my ignorance but I'm kind of lost in the conversation even after reading the entire thread.


Welcome to the forum Carlos. Sometimes I read my own posts and can't figure out what I'm talking about. :D Some of us, myself included are prone to tangents...it gets tough to follow. :confused:

[CelticRedman]

Thanks, Kellen. Appreciate it!

[CelticRedman]

Thank you as well CRCAVA.

[SoCo KungFu]

CRCAVA- supposedly, you are bjj black belt under Dave Camarillo. Do you not see all the holes in this "groundwork" video that Randy is demonstrating, as well as the RNC defense?

Randy Willams Groundwork Demo??!!?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g)

RNC Defense??!!?? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLWTQEoV9Nk)

1) He takes a great assumption that his tech will be there. He's doing absolutely nothing to control the opponent in that exchange other than apparently stepping on his fingers...yawn...people don't just sit there on all 4's

2) I don't have to be a black belt to know I don't get out of a RNC by dropping to my knees and allowing an enemy that already has my back to gain further leverage.

[CelticRedman]

I've never had to do a real world escape from a BJJ style Rear Naked Choke but I HAVE had to get out of an old fashioned rear headlock when recovering from my own stupidity arresting someone. I've never trained with Randy Williams (though I've met some folks who have (with varying degrees of still)). I've personally trained in another art with a similar technique and it definitely worked for me! In fact I was threatened with a lawsuit for using it. Only difference from the vid I saw of R.W. was that I sent the perp off on an angle (and my knee didn't like it too much).

I know some guys in the Gracie camp who would challenge some of R.W.'s techniques in the Groundwork vid but only at a very technical level. In fact, unless you were putting a master level WC person against a master level BJJ person, I don't see where the techniques are "flawed," much less "wrong." Then again I'm not a MMA guy so I have NO idea how this would all pan out on the mat. I HAVE "rolled" in the street with guys who saw too many episodes of The Ultimate Fighter yet managed to get back up and use other tools to survive and effect an arrest. What I learned was that conditioning is important. I also learned that I'm lucky that folks get too busy getting position to snatch my weapon, or concentrate so much on my weapon that they can't do techniques and that includes a BJJ purple belt who wondered why he couldn't ground me trying to escape my handcuffing technique.

Sorry so wordy.

[YouKnowWho]

RNC Defense

It depends on who can drop down faster. If

- you can drop down faster than your opponent (you are lower than him), you can throw him over your head. You may not even need to use "sacrifice throw". Whether his RNC can drag you down or not depends on how good his RNC is.
- he can drops down faster than you (he is lower than you), he can pull you down backward.

In that clip, the instructor assumed that he could drop down faster than his opponent which was a valid assumption (in that clip, his opponent had no intention to drop). Of course if you can move your butt out, and move one of your arms behing your opponent and surround his waist that will be even better.

If your opponent is not smart enough to step back, use leverage, and force your butt to sit on the ground, you will still have chance to counter his RNC (head lock, or ...).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-VP9gHp3G4&feature=youtu.be

[YouKnowWho]

unless you were putting a master level WC person against a master level BJJ person, I don't see where the techniques are "flawed," much less "wrong."
Agree with you 100% there. Can A's technique work on B? Until oneday that A and B meet, nobody will be able to know the answer.

Old Chinese saying said,

- "If your opponent can get a head lock on you, you are not a good wrestler."

Old Chinese saying also said,

- "If you can't get a head lock on your opponent, you are not a good wrestler."

These 2 old saying just contradict each other big time. MA is like the Chinese spear and shield paradox.

In the story, a man was trying to sell a spear and a shield. When asked how good his spear was, he said that his spear could pierce any shield. Then, when asked how good his shield was, he said that it could defend from all spear attacks. Then one person asked him what would happen if he were to take his spear to strike his shield; the seller could not answer.

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg

[SoCo KungFu]

RNC Defense

It depends on who can drop down faster. If

- you can drop down faster than your opponent (you are lower than him), you can throw him over your head. You may not even need to use "sacrifice throw". Whether his RNC can drag you down or not depends on how good his RNC is.
- he can drops down faster than you (he is lower than you), he can pull you down backward.

In that clip, the instructor assumed that he could drop down faster than his opponent which was a valid assumption (in that clip, his opponent had no intention to drop). Of course if you can move your butt out, and move one of your arms behing your opponent and surround his waist that will be even better.

If your opponent is not smart enough to step back and force your butt to sit on the ground, you will still have chance to counter his RNC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-VP9gHp3G4&feature=youtu.be

Or I can just do what I learned the first day of BJJ take leg hooks or body triangle and none of the above matters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Q92OV_DG0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=vPO8AmvxYsQ

Its not so easy to shake somebody as people would like to think. A knee drop seoi nage (what I'm assuming he was trying to mimic) can work but it also can fail and land you in a really ****ty situation. Its an unnecessary risk when you can do the same technique without giving up your footing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUN8-V-I0-Q&playnext=1&list=PL431DB7A00D7E27F8&feature=results_main

or this

http://themartialartsreporter.com/escape-from-the-standing-rear-naked-choke/

[LaRoux]

I am a BJJ Black Belt through Dave Camarillo and I train BJJ 6 days a week. The Randy Williams CRCA Ground Fighting videos are great! They offer WC practitioners the ability to translate and better understand WC concepts on the ground. Is it BJJ? No... nor does Sifu Williams state it to be BJJ. It is a completely different approach to ground fighting than BJJ. I find it to be a beautiful complement to BJJ & MMA.

If you think getting choked out is a good complement to BJJ & MMA, good for you.

Since you don't seem to understand the deficiencies in the techniques being shown, maybe you could ask Dave to explain them to you.

Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to get your BJJ black belt?

[LaRoux]

RNC Defense

It depends on who can drop down faster.


It has nothing to do with dropping down faster.

[LaRoux]

I know some guys in the Gracie camp who would challenge some of R.W.'s techniques in the Groundwork vid but only at a very technical level.

They would criticize them on all technical levels.



In fact, unless you were putting a master level WC person against a master level BJJ person, I don't see where the techniques are "flawed," much less "wrong."
Then again I'm not a MMA guy so I have NO idea how this would all pan out on the mat. I HAVE "rolled" in the street with guys who saw too many episodes of The Ultimate Fighter yet managed to get back up and use other tools to survive and effect an arrest.

It works the same on the mat as it does on the street.

[LaRoux]

I also learned that I'm lucky that folks get too busy getting position to snatch my weapon,

Too busy getting position to snatch your weapon? If they get the proper position on you, it simple for them to grab your weapon and you won't be able to do much about it.

You must have thought they were going for position, when in reality (and lucky for you), they knew nothing about positioning.

[CRCAVA]

This thread really needs some help... I can't believe how close minded everyone is. @LaRoux, I've been training BJJ since I was 7 years old... I understand the RNC and all of its variations, offense, defense & escapes. I'm not even going to entertain the idea of a guy who won't give his REAL name is going to evaluate my BJJ game. It's so far beyond laughable... As far as Randy Williams WC Ground work techniques... They are all very good "Wing Chun" ground techniques. You really should take a class with Randy on ground fighting and get the real deal instead of being a YouTube hero and over analyzing a freaking video. I've already challenged @Laroux to fight several times and you declined... Which is fine, that the only smart thing you've done on this forum is agree not to fight me. Now with all that aside I challenge you to open your mind and train. Really train... Not YouTube train, serious training. If you do this you will change your mind... Until then you wil just be a sad man behind a keyboard wishing he had half the answers he claims to have.

[Kellen Bassette]

I can't believe how close minded everyone is.


Get used to that. Everyone is in one camp or another; and we all think we're the cool kids. :D



Now with all that aside I challenge you to open your mind and train. Really train... Not YouTube train, serious training.

Real training is hard. That's why all the real masters are perfecting Forum Fu. ;)

[WingChunNovice]

I am a BJJ Black Belt through Dave Camarillo and I train BJJ 6 days a week. The Randy Williams CRCA Ground Fighting videos are great! They offer WC practitioners the ability to translate and better understand WC concepts on the ground. Is it BJJ? No... nor does Sifu Williams state it to be BJJ. It is a completely different approach to ground fighting than BJJ. I find it to be a beautiful complement to BJJ & MMA.

I fully agree with John here. I am new to Wing Chun but I have many years in the Kenpo system too and we have a saying ... to feel is to believe.

So LaRoux instead of all this trash talking why don't you just setup a match with yourself and Sifu Williams and prove your theories in person. Clearly you don't have that much faith in your own skills or conviction or you would do so. John even offered to fly you out. Back it up or STFU.

MS

[YouKnowWho]

It has nothing to do with dropping down faster.
If you want to throw your opponent over your head, you have to drop your center of gravity lower than his. That's shoulder throw basic 101.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUN8-V-I0-Q&playnext=1&list=PL431DB7A00D7E27F8&feature=results_main