Old Chinese wrestler's strategy

[YouKnowWho]

This clip was filmed about 20 years ago. The old man was my teacher's young brother in his 80. He had competed all his life and never lose in any Chinese wrestling tournament. He earned his nickname as "Big Face (person with dignity)" in Chinese. There are many valuable tips that we can see from this short clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUQJgK-8RE

1. When you extend your arms, you may lose your striking ability, but since your hands are next to your opponent's wrists, you can restrict your opponent's striking ability too.
2. You always use your leading leg to jam your opponent's leading leg. This way, your opponent's leading leg won't give you any trouble.
3. When you jam your opponent's leading leg, you give your opponent 2 options, to step infront of your foot, or to step behind of your foot. You then take advantage on it.
4. You constantly control both of your opponent's arms.
5. Under hook is very useful in no-jacket wrestling.

What's you opinion on those "old Chinese wrestling strategies"?

[Robinhood]

I don't know, maybe post it on a wrestling forum, not martial art forum.

Like Bruce lee would say, I don't push, I hit. Why wrestle.?, unless you are trying to get one of those sword babes.

[SPJ]

Thanks for posting and sharing.

Apparently, striking only and wrestling only

would dictate or favor different positioning and stepping.

---

:)

[Bernard]

Wrestling is an important part of the martial arts.

[Kellen Bassette]

I don't know, maybe post it on a wrestling forum, not martial art forum.

So there's no wrestling in TCMA? Wow.....

[mawali]

This clip was filmed about 20 years ago. The old man was my teacher's young brother in his 80. He had competed all his life and never lose in any Chinese wrestling tournament. He earned his nickname as "Big Face (person with dignity)" in Chinese. There are many valuable tips that we can see from this short clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUQJgK-8RE

1. When you extend your arms, you may lose your striking ability, but since your hands are next to your opponent's wrists, you can restrict your opponent's striking ability too.
2. You always use your leading leg to jam your opponent's leading leg. This way, your opponent's leading leg won't give you any trouble.
3. When you jam your opponent's leading leg, you give your opponent 2 options, to step infront of your foot, or to step behind of your foot. You then take advantage on it.
4. You constantly control both of your opponent's arms.
5. Under hook is very useful in no-jacket wrestling.

What's you opinion on those "old Chinese wrestling strategies"?

Makes sense as a great strategy. Contrary to popular belief, wrestling is martial:D

[Robinhood]

So there's no wrestling in TCMA? Wow.....

Probably by accident, not planned, made a mistake, last resort...ect

[LaRoux]

This clip was filmed about 20 years ago. The old man was my teacher's young brother in his 80. He had competed all his life and never lose in any Chinese wrestling tournament. He earned his nickname as "Big Face (person with dignity)" in Chinese. There are many valuable tips that we can see from this short clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUQJgK-8RE

1. When you extend your arms, you may lose your striking ability, but since your hands are next to your opponent's wrists, you can restrict your opponent's striking ability too.
2. You always use your leading leg to jam your opponent's leading leg. This way, your opponent's leading leg won't give you any trouble.
3. When you jam your opponent's leading leg, you give your opponent 2 options, to step infront of your foot, or to step behind of your foot. You then take advantage on it.
4. You constantly control both of your opponent's arms.
5. Under hook is very useful in no-jacket wrestling.

What's you opinion on those "old Chinese wrestling strategies"?

While all those things are very useful and true, I wouldn't consider them strategies. They are more along the lines of tactics and are things that most people with 6 months or so of basic high school wrestling figures out.

Strategy is more along the lines of figuring out an overall game plan.

[LaRoux]

I don't know, maybe post it on a wrestling forum, not martial art forum.

Like Bruce lee would say, I don't push, I hit. Why wrestle.?, unless you are trying to get one of those sword babes.

Why wrestle? Because someone might be interested in things that work.

[Shaolin]

I don't know, maybe post it on a wrestling forum, not martial art forum.

Like Bruce lee would say, I don't push, I hit. Why wrestle.?, unless you are trying to get one of those sword babes.

Wow, no wrestling and a Bruce Lee quote. I'm guessing a 15 year old, yellow belt karate student.

Wrestling is a martial art. Pay attention and read, you may learn something.

[omarthefish]

Probably by accident, not planned, made a mistake, last resort...ect

Chinese wrestling is the oldest traditional martial art in all of China. There were "wrestling" divisions in traditional MA tournaments back in the republican era and it has always been a major feature of Chinese MA culture. Even today, there are numerous professional teams that compete on a circuit in China and there are even regional styles with the main two these days being the Mongolian version and the "Beijing style".

You apparently know next to nothing about traditional Chinese martial arts history and culture.

p.s.

hint: When he says "wrestling" he is not referring to greco-roman, freestyle or catch. ;)

[David Jamieson]

Hey, let's stay on topic instead of dog piling one guy for his opinion?

[omarthefish]

Fair enough.

It was hard to resist. :o

[RenDaHai]

Nice vid YKW!

'Jamming' checking front leg is a classic.

Even outside of wrestling checking the front leg and/or standing on the toes is a classic entry. Wushu even evolves its footwork especially to avoid being checked or jammed.

Jin bu di, tui bu gao, Step in low, step back high.

Shi Shou Xu Tui, Xu Shou Shi Tui, Solid hands - empty legs, empty hands- solid legs.

[David Jamieson]

wasn't directed at you only Omar, but thanks. :)

[EarthDragon]

I find that once the bridge is made most dont look at he feet for their next move, they often focus too much on the hands. i have taken down my students with a slight slide footwork or shuffle and they always ask can you show me that again. LOL sublteness is almost always overrated. in this clip his movement are very subtle, this to your opponent feels like no threat

[YouKnowWho]

Wushu even evolves its footwork especially to avoid being checked or jammed.
I think I know what you are talking about.

It exists in almost all the longfist forms too. If you have right leg forward, when your opponent tries to check your leading leg, you pull your right front foot back a little, make a clockwise circle, and apply "reverse shin bite" to recheck your opponent's leading leg.

[SPJ]

I think I know what you are talking about.

It exists in almost all the longfist forms too. If you have right leg forward, when your opponent tries to check your leading leg, you pull your right front foot back a little, make a clockwise circle, and apply "reverse shin bite" to recheck your opponent's leading leg.

Yes. It is evident in Wu Tai Ji and Cheng Ba Gua forms too.

Well it exists in all styles.

:)

[Lucas]

what makes the difference between an opinion and incorrect information? :eek:

[GeneChing]

Why wrestle.?, unless you are trying to get one of those sword babes. You, sir, have obviously never enjoyed the delights of dating a sword hottie (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41007). It would change your life.


Wrestling is an important part of the martial arts. But not the Olympics (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1211022#post1211022). Oooooh snap!


what makes the difference between an opinion and incorrect information? :eek: It's just your opinion that the information is incorrect and your opinion may well be incorrect information.

[Lucas]

My opinion is that your opininon is based off of incorrect information.

[Robinhood]

My opinion is that your opininon is based off of incorrect information.

Opinions are usually based on selective information of the person making the opinion .

Usually something taken out of context to try and push an agenda.

[RenDaHai]

I think I know what you are talking about.

It exists in almost all the longfist forms too. If you have right leg forward, when your opponent tries to check your leading leg, you pull your right front foot back a little, make a clockwise circle, and apply "reverse shin bite" to recheck your opponent's leading leg.

Indeed! Xiao Wai Chan, Xiao Nei Chan. Small circles.

Or when he tries to stand on your foot you pull out and step back on his.

The key point is that the leg pulls back slightly so that when it reinserts it can enter by the path it wants. When it is pulled back it is tucked under the body slightly, this way it is momentarily uncheckable since to check it the opponent would have to enter your sphere and punch range. Often Shaolin footwork tucks the leg under to when moving forwards, this way the foot also enters on the lowest vector possible and does so with momentum. It is part of an extended footwork we call HuDieBu, butterfly step.... I don't know why.

[Lucas]

opinions are like *******s. everyone has one, and most are ****ty.

[GeneChing]

My opinion is that your opininon is based off of incorrect information. That's just your opinion. And it's incorrect.

:p

[Robinhood]

You, sir, have obviously never enjoyed the delights of dating a sword hottie (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41007). It would change your life.

.



Hey Gene, could you send a few over ?

[Lucas]

That's just your opinion. And it's incorrect.

:p

Sometimes I hate you.

[YouKnowWho]

when he tries to stand on your foot you pull out and step back on his.
Another similiar solution is just to bend your low leg back at your knee joint. This way your low leg below the knee just suddently disappear. It can lead your opponent "into the emptiness". When his foot lands, you can kick your low leg back (without even moving your knee) and sweep at his ankle. This is why to kick the low leg back to touch hip wirthout moving the knee is a very important warm up in Chinese wrestling.

Sometime we may put too much attention on power generation, and ignore simple leg skill such as "bending your low leg back at your knee joint without moving the knee" can solve a lot of problems such as foot sweep, low roundhouse kick, shin bite, inner heel sweep, leg check, ...

Interest enough, ancient people also had realized this. That's why experience guys liked to check their opponent's upper leg (above the knee) instead.

[RenDaHai]

Interest enough, ancient people also had realized this. That's why experience guys liked to check their opponent's upper leg (above the knee) instead.

Indeed, but that runs the risk of a hand capture ankle and a lower stance will allow you to reach your hand lower.

Speaking of lower stances;
Once in China I tried a sanshou match only kicking to the groin (we allowed other moves but kinda ignored them). We wore a lot of padding (didn't help, but you have to try these things).

Anyway, it began as normal sparring, but by the end we were both using a very low very tight Xu bu (groin level with knee, feet close together)! This way in one sweep without bending a hand could reach down to touch the floor and up above the head. So we could catch each others legs easily (and that meant a guaranteed groin kick) no matter how low we kicked each other, even to the ankle, it was possible to catch. It is strange to fight this way but when trading groin kicks it just kind of happened.

It was fun but I wouldn't do it every day.

[YouKnowWho]

Indeed, but that runs the risk of a hand capture ankle and a lower stance will allow you to reach your hand lower.

This is why to use your hand to control your opponent's arm is important. You can tuck your opponent's arm in such a way that his arm won't cause any trouble for you. When both of your hands grab on both of your opponent's wrist (or arm), the striking game is over. The grappling game just start.

This is why a grappler's fighting stance is different from a striker's fighting stance.

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/8762/scposture.jpg

[RenDaHai]

This is why to use your hand to control your opponent's arm is important.


Of course! Not sure what I was thinking.

I'll try checking above the knee a bit more often and see how it feels.

[EarthDragon]

YKW,
interesting I was gooing to mention countering that throw, either by bending and sniming or wraping he foot around the opponent who is attacking's leg. do you find this to work. I have had success only when I know the throw is coming or have a change to wrap. otherside bending the knee forces the energy downward and maint tians your balance

[YouKnowWho]

YKW,
interesting I was gooing to mention countering that throw, either by bending and sniming or wraping he foot around the opponent who is attacking's leg. do you find this to work. I have had success only when I know the throw is coming or have a change to wrap. otherside bending the knee forces the energy downward and maint tians your balance
If your opponent's under hook can off balance your body structure, your counter won't be effective. The reason is simple. Your opponent is at a dominate position. His under hook can lift oneside of your body off the ground. When your opponent tried to under hook you, if you use over hook on him, that will apply pressure on his left elbow joint. If you extend your right leg out to block both of his leg, you can turn the situation around.

IMO, his "under hook" is the "main" part of his attack. His leg is only the "minor" part of his attack. He can even use hip throw without using his left leg at that moment. If you can take care of his under hook, you have just reverse your defense into your offense.

[YouKnowWho]

Just found some nice clips from another forum.

1. Shoulder strike, body spin.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o198/fedorpwn666/Gifs/lyotothrow.gif?t=1305040479

2. Block both legs, push upper body.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1005082/yoshihiro-akiyama-vs-jake-shields_medium.gif

3. Catch kicking leg, sweep standing leg.

http://www.mmafight.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Wandy-trips-Bisping.gif

[YouKnowWho]

I'll try checking above the knee a bit more often and see how it feels.
If your opponent has left side forward, you can use your right leg to jam on his left upper leg with yout right foot stick on the back of his left upper leg. If your can use both of your arms to control his upper body, you can lift your standing left leg and put all your body weight on top of your opponent's left upper leg. If you just suddently jump on top of your opponent like this. It can create a shock feeling for your opponent if he doesn't know what has just happened.

[-N-]

Just found some nice clips from another forum.

1. Shoulder strike, body spin.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o198/fedorpwn666/Gifs/lyotothrow.gif?t=1305040479

2. Block both legs, push upper body.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1005082/yoshihiro-akiyama-vs-jake-shields_medium.gif

3. Catch kicking leg, sweep standing leg.

http://www.mmafight.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Wandy-trips-Bisping.gif

Nice classical moves.

Though I'm guessing these guys are not from TCMA.

[EarthDragon]

once people understand that TCMA influences everything other art on the planet then and only then will then will they stop putting lables on and compatmentalizing fighting

[YouKnowWho]

Nice classical moves.

Though I'm guessing these guys are not from TCMA.

IMO, the principles should not have any "style boundary". If a Taiji guy jumps in the air and throw a "superman punch". He may not follow the Taiji principle. He follows the general principle - whatever it may take to land your fist on your opponent's face.

[YouKnowWho]

once people understand that TCMA influences everything other art on the planet then and only then will then will they stop putting lables on and compatmentalizing fighting
If your opponent's

- both legs are close to you, you take both of his legs.
- one leg is close to you, you take that leg first. You then take the other leg afterward.

This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.

[Robinhood]

You, sir, have obviously never enjoyed the delights of dating a sword hottie (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41007). It would change your life.



Yes, and here are some interesting stats on men wrestlers
http://www.chacha.com/question/what-percentage-of-all-wrestlers-are-gay

[Kellen Bassette]

Yes, and here are some interesting stats on men wrestlers
http://www.chacha.com/question/what-percentage-of-all-wrestlers-are-gay

"There's nothing gay about it! We're all martial artists here. Put your face in his junk!"

Heard today from a BJJ coach, lol.

[Robinhood]

"There's nothing gay about it! We're all martial artists here. Put your face in his junk!"

Heard today from a BJJ coach, lol.

I did not read the research, but the title was high school wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

I actually thought it was a joke...I didn't read any research either.

[-N-]

This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.

Tai Chi loves that first one.

Praying Mantis has the 2nd and 3rd one all the time.

3rd one with the catch and kick/sweep is in one of our beginner exercises, 14 Routes Tan Tui.

[-N-]

Footwork on that first one is present in Praying Mantis.

We specifically train it as a "din bo" switch-up. It's documented in several forms.

That's how it looks in application. Though we tend to do the switch-up more explosively to really blitz through the other guy when in close range.

Technique is specifically for breaking inertia to generate force at close range.

[-N-]

Footwork on that first one is present in Praying Mantis.

We specifically train it as a "din bo" switch-up. It's documented in several forms.

That's how it looks in application. Though we tend to do the switch-up more explosively to really blitz through the other guy when in close range.

Technique is specifically for breaking inertia to generate force at close range.

I use that footwork with a lot of different attacks. Very instantaneous if you train its details correctly.

Really convenient to be able to whip that out at any time.

[Robinhood]

As these MMA guys get better, you are seeing more TCMA moves being used.

[SevenStar]

I don't know, maybe post it on a wrestling forum, not martial art forum.

Like Bruce lee would say, I don't push, I hit. Why wrestle.?, unless you are trying to get one of those sword babes.

you can't be serious...

[SevenStar]

As these MMA guys get better, you are seeing more TCMA moves being used.

not really. your are just seeing more technique in general. if you see a hip toss, did it come from sumo, judo, greco roman or shuai chiao?

[SevenStar]

This clip was filmed about 20 years ago. The old man was my teacher's young brother in his 80. He had competed all his life and never lose in any Chinese wrestling tournament. He earned his nickname as "Big Face (person with dignity)" in Chinese. There are many valuable tips that we can see from this short clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUQJgK-8RE

1. When you extend your arms, you may lose your striking ability, but since your hands are next to your opponent's wrists, you can restrict your opponent's striking ability too.


i'm not a big fan of that one from an offensive standpoint. defensively it's great because all the space means the guy can't control his hips and throw him. offensively, he wants to eliminate that space.

[David Jamieson]

i'm not a big fan of that one from an offensive standpoint. defensively it's great because all the space means the guy can't control his hips and throw him. offensively, he wants to eliminate that space.

wtf you been anyway SS?

[SevenStar]

good question. i'm not really sure myself, lol. i'm trying to get a fitness based non profit up and running, so i've been dealing with that. getting ready to apply for my 501c3 status now.

[-N-]

good question. i'm not really sure myself, lol. i'm trying to get a fitness based non profit up and running, so i've been dealing with that. getting ready to apply for my 501c3 status now.

That's really cool.

Share any tips or info if you can.

That's something I've got in the back of my mind for when I'm retired. Hopefully sooner than later.

I've got a few years experience in a 501c3 group. Non fitness/martial though.

[SevenStar]

basically, I want to help eliminate childhood obesity in the city. for the past 3 years, i've been working in a few of the city schools teaching children martial arts, dance, modeling, basketball, etc. the schools pay for it, but are reluctant to pay for the program, so I've decided to apply for my 501c3 status so I can get grants, making out more speaking to the schools. my city is always in the top 5 fattest cities with a 38% obesity rate and I figure one way to help eliminate that is by teaching the kids healthy habits.

[-N-]

basically, I want to help eliminate childhood obesity in the city. for the past 3 years, i've been working in a few of the city schools teaching children martial arts, dance, modeling, basketball, etc. the schools pay for it, but are reluctant to pay for the program, so I've decided to apply for my 501c3 status so I can get grants, making out more speaking to the schools. my city is always in the top 5 fattest cities with a 38% obesity rate and I figure one way to help eliminate that is by teaching the kids healthy habits.

Very cool.

I think there's a boxing gym community center here in Oakland that was set up as a 501c3.

I've been thinking more and more that it would be cool to do something like that for kids and old retired people etc.

[SevenStar]

it's a corny reference, but i'm envisioning something like the angel grove community center that was shown on the old power rangers episodes, combined with the max - that hangout spot the saved by the bell kids went to.

[David Jamieson]

Call it: "The Rainbow Power Tolerance & Choke Out Center"

[YouKnowWho]

We all want to develop our combat skill to the level that "The moment you touch (not grab), the moment you throw." Here is a simple example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9trNykyD2Y

It's not easy to be able to reach to that level. You will need to have good timing and precise contact point. You may also need to "plan" ahead of the time such as:

How can you use your

- kick to put your feet at certain position.
- punch to put your arm at certain position.

It's easy to throw from a clinching. It's not that easy to throw during fast fists exchanging. Can it be done? It will take a lot of work. That's the modern "combat Chinese wrestling strategy".

[Robinhood]

We all want to develop our combat skill to the level that "The moment you touch (not grab), the moment you throw." Here is a simple example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9trNykyD2Y

It's not easy to be able to reach to that level. You will need to have good timing and precise contact point. You may also need to "plan" ahead of the time such as:

How can you use your

- kick to put your feet at certain position.
- punch to put your arm at certain position.

It's easy to throw from a clinching. It's not that easy to throw during fast fists exchanging. Can it be done? It will take a lot of work. That's the modern "combat Chinese wrestling strategy".

I would not call that a throw, all he did was kick the guys leg out, what is so hard about that ?, more just lucky strike.

Watch Segal for high level throws.

Lol

[YouKnowWho]

what is so hard about that ?, more just lucky strike.

The "forward kick (foot sweep)" requires great timing. If you kick too early, it won't work. If you kick too late, it also won't work.

If you can only make it to work once, it's "lucky strike". If you can make it to work everytime, it won't be just "lucky strike".

[SevenStar]

Call it: "The Rainbow Power Tolerance & Choke Out Center"

I like it!

[-N-]

it's a corny reference, but i'm envisioning something like the angel grove community center that was shown on the old power rangers episodes, combined with the max - that hangout spot the saved by the bell kids went to.

I know I've seen those, but I barely remember them.

You're doing good.

I'll be looking for your website when you get everything going.

[-N-]

We all want to develop our combat skill to the level that "The moment you touch (not grab), the moment you throw." Here is a simple example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9trNykyD2Y

It's not easy to be able to reach to that level. You will need to have good timing and precise contact point. You may also need to "plan" ahead of the time such as:

How can you use your

- kick to put your feet at certain position.
- punch to put your arm at certain position.

It's easy to throw from a clinching. It's not that easy to throw during fast fists exchanging. Can it be done? It will take a lot of work. That's the modern "combat Chinese wrestling strategy".

Your first two gifs were better examples than the karate guy.

[SevenStar]

I know I've seen those, but I barely remember them.

You're doing good.

I'll be looking for your website when you get everything going.

http://www.transformemphis.com

http://www.transformemphiskids.com

http://facebook.com/TransforMemphis

I'm also creating humorous fitness memes and putting them on pinterest.
http://www.pinterest.com/TransforMemphis

generic info on there, and fitness articles that I've written. once my non profit status is approved and I can get grants, I'll put more about the organization out there.