four types of basic operations and snake body

[Hendrik]

For those who is interested only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkvhj06Fw4

[Robinhood]

For those who is interested only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkvhj06Fw4

Good description and demo,

it is basically one and two is external, and three and four are internal.

most wc only know one and two because of mcdojos .and fraud copy cats.

[JPinAZ]

Hahahaa @15:00!! You are so lonely for attention you are doing kung fu training by your self with a baseball bat and a wall! Who would be interested in this??

[Hendrik]

Good description and demo,

it is basically one and two is external, and three and four are internal.

most wc only know one and two because of mcdojos .and fraud copy cats.



I hope those who has heart on the WCK carry on and grow it. Since we could describe things with physics these days, lots of study can be done and learning can be made better.

A mcdojo which has a clear systematic teaching is also a good thing to have.

I use the physical, mind, breathing, qi, and momentum/force change/wing Chun strategy uniquness or the five layer instead of internal, external, ....etc because we need to have a clear description of what is what.

Otherwise, people can talking different things forever but never have a physical based reality.

So, IMHO, the snake body or snake engine can be define clearly. And since it can do all four, it is beyond the usual thinking of push back or structure, but a ticket to dynamic .

And the eyes of the cyclone is right in turning on the snake body/engine of the siu nim tau. So close but so far , an incident for the past sixty years or so. Now instead of looking out, just look in, the destination is there. IMHO. Wing Chun kuen is snake body crane limbs. One needs the snake body for the snake bite.

[k gledhill]

What is SLT for Hendrik, to stand or to fight ? And if striking why do you use a bat to show the 'body/support' and not your arm ?????????

[Hendrik]

What is SLT for Hendrik, to stand or to fight ? And if striking why do you use a bat to show the 'body/support' and not your arm ?????????

I share Hawkins view, start 5.2 to the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRWgZ5H0xlA

[Robinhood]

I hope those who has heart on the WCK carry on and grow it. Since we could describe things with physics these days, lots of study can be done and learning can be made better.

A mcdojo which has a clear systematic teaching is also a good thing to have.

I use the physical, mind, breathing, qi, and momentum/force change/wing Chun strategy uniquness or the five layer instead of internal, external, ....etc because we need to have a clear description of what is what.

Otherwise, people can talking different things forever but never have a physical based reality.

So, IMHO, the snake body or snake engine can be define clearly. And since it can do all four, it is beyond the usual thinking of push back or structure, but a ticket to dynamic .

And the eyes of the cyclone is right in turning on the snake body/engine of the siu nim tau. So close but so far , an incident for the past sixty years or so. Now instead of looking out, just look in, the destination is there. IMHO. Wing Chun kuen is snake body crane limbs. One needs the snake body for the snake bite.

We usually get the guys who have done steps one and two for at least 10 years as new students. They need to start some where , your right those schools do serve a purpose.

[k gledhill]

I share Hawkins view, start 5.2 to the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRWgZ5H0xlA

:confused: okaaaayy....so you are Hawkins Sifu now ?

[Hendrik]

:confused: okaaaayy....so you are Hawkins Sifu now ?

WCK is WCK.
Wcners share many views . Hawkins is my senior generation in WCK . He has my high respect.

Btw, I am doing WCK not cult. So, I share the common denominator of all red boat WCK lineages. :)

[Hendrik]

We usually get the guys who have done steps one and two for at least 10 years as new students. They need to start some where , your right those schools do serve a purpose.

Just hope more things clear up, so the consumers is Benifit.

[Vajramusti]

What is SLT for Hendrik, to stand or to fight ? And if striking why do you use a bat to show the 'body/support' and not your arm ?????????
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Partly because of Hendrik's articulation and partly because of my hearing and partly because of video sound quality I catch only bits and pieces of what Hendrik is saying in his videos.

You(generic you-not the personal you) first need to develop the body structure so that the hands can do their work. Hands also have structural requirements in training.

[k gledhill]

We are developing the need to strike with force and use technical angling of arms simultaneously. We need to support it, but wont fight in a basic stance with a bat pushed into our chest.....part of the fighting skill is NOT to let someone get to this position by angling and moving using the SLT arm positions driven dynamically through chum kil.

[Vajramusti]

We are developing the need to strike with force and use technical angling of arms simultaneously. We need to support it, but wont fight in a basic stance with a bat pushed into our chest.....part of the fighting skill is NOT to let someone get to this position by angling and moving using the SLT arm positions driven dynamically through chum kil.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure- one skill developed after another. Hendrik has his perspective. There are other valid curricula besides his.

One has to integrate dealing with gravity, the axis the peculiarities of the body, balance, timing, distance control, footwork, performing different functions-plus experimentation with others
and developing experience. Different curricula attempt to arrange these things and other functions in different ways.

Too easy to criticize one isolated demo.

Sometimes Hendrik preaches to the choir but he is not alone.

[k gledhill]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure- one skill developed after another. Hendrik has his perspective. There are other valid curricula besides his.

One has to integrate dealing with gravity, the axis the peculiarities of the body, balance, timing, distance control, footwork, performing different functions-plus experimentation with others
and developing experience. Different curricula attempt to arrange these things and other functions in different ways.

Too easy to criticize one isolated demo.

Sometimes Hendrik preaches to the choir but he is not alone.

My point is really that Hendrik NEVER moves beyond this point....for 25 minutes :D
Ving Tsun is testing, always, stance to generate PUNCHING/DEFENSIVE arms and angles, statically and dynamically.
The only way to develop the structure is to move on and systematically add more and more until its a working structure. To keep a student in a stance alone immobile is misleading them into thinking VT is a static fight to not get pushed back when attacking the living-room wall with a bat :rolleyes: ;)

[Hendrik]

My point is really that Hendrik NEVER moves beyond this point....for 25 minutes :D

Ving Tsun is testing, always, stance to generate PUNCHING/DEFENSIVE arms and angles, statically and dynamically.

The only way to develop the structure is to move on and systematically add more and more until its a working structure. To keep a student in a stance alone immobile is misleading them into thinking VT is a static fight to not get pushed back when attacking the living-room wall with a bat :rolleyes: ;)

You have very good points.

However, the wing Chun kuen characteristics are : 咏春拳短桥窄马，善发寸劲. Wing Chun kuen, short bridge narrow stance, good in handling short Jin . Which means wck is capable to handling jin at different part of the body and different angles and timing. That doesn't seem to be the wing Chun You describing above.

May be I don't know what I am talking about, or perhaps you dont know what i am presenting?

May be you need to ask do you know and could you handle the four types of basic operation? Can you arm do it? Can your body do it?

[k gledhill]

You have very good points.

However, the wing Chun kuen characteristics are : 咏春拳短桥窄马，善发寸劲. Wing Chun kuen, short bridge narrow stance, good in handling short Jin . Which means wck is capable to handling jin at different part of the body and different angles and timing. That doesn't seem to be the wing Chun You describing above.

May be I don't know what I am talking about, or perhaps you dont know what i am presenting?

May be you need to ask do you know and could you handle the four types of basic operation? Can you arm do it? Can your body do it?

show me how YOU would use an arm/punch in lin sil di da action, not a bat versus wall...then add angling & timing to same ideas..this is where arm pressure hand chasers fail completely.

[Hendrik]

show me how YOU would use an arm/punch in lin sil di da action, not a bat versus wall...then add angling & timing to same ideas..this is where arm pressure hand chasers fail completely.


Good questions, may be some one can answer this for me!

[Robinhood]

show me how YOU would use an arm/punch in lin sil di da action, not a bat versus wall...then add angling & timing to same ideas..this is where arm pressure hand chasers fail completely.

From your posts, it is clear that you don't see what he is explaining, maybe you should be looking for someone that can explain and show you in person.

He explained it pretty clearly with the bat, you need to ask yourself why you can't see it.

I have a quick question, why do you call wc, vt,? isn't vt the style made up by leng ting .?

[Hendrik]

From your posts, it is clear that you don't see what he is explaining, maybe you should be looking for someone that can explain and show you in person.

He explained it pretty clearly with the bat, you need to ask yourself why you can't see it.

I have a quick question, why do you call wc, vt,? isn't vt the style made up by leng ting .?


Some questions need to be asked, which is more difficult, hande force change with a part of body or hand? And how much control one has? As in the Hawkins clip above, reality is not demo. .. If one doesnt develop it one don't have the handling.

[Robinhood]

Some questions need to be asked, which is more difficult, hande force change with a part of body or hand? And how much control one has? As in the Hawkins clip above, reality is not demo. .. If one doesnt develop it one don't have the handling.

I don't follow Hawkins , some of his things make sense, but I don't really see from video full philosophy of what he is trying say, he looks like more of a rush in type of wc philosophy , but like I said, I don't follow him.

[Vajramusti]

KG and HS- two different ends of a continuum!

[Hendrik]

KG and HS- two different ends of a continuum!

Nope, I am not in the different end, KG is latching at the big physical movement posture level ,

While I am presenting a force change level of WCK , the elements of small. Movement fast Jin domain of WCK.

KG is thinking using move to play Lin siu dai da or capture the center. I share the close body elements of ancient WCK where every part of the body is a hand , at the contact point there is recieve issue or Lin siu dai da, capture center line at the contact. It is a play of force trajectory with small motion.

It is an art of the whole body is weapon, not only hands. Every angle is capture the center not has to move to different angle.


One needs to have one's body to be able to perform the basic force changes function, otherwise, one art is just a hand distance art, not a close body art as decries in wing Chun red boat era. And to have a close body art, one needs to have the snake body develop. Then, one an play at hand, elbow, shoulder, body distance .

So, to reply KG on why showing that utube standing? It is body vesus wall. If the body can handle the the hand can handle, but the hand can handle doesn't mean the body can handle . Also, in the clip it points out, there is hold push type of usual handling and force change dynamic type which is much refine then the common hold, tense , and push back type. Those are dynamic with subtle move. Move within move. Those are the key of WCK short Jin. Certainly, not those chain punch, pushing , and knowint limbs but knowing not type or deal. Just ask the question, how can one stick? If one can handle the four basic function with ones body contact?

By the definition of siu Lin tau, when one not get these far, one can only be knowing less the half of WCK. Many such as Bruce Lee who don't know the content of the art but going extreme to promote thier own view, that cannot be the teaching of WCK red boat. IMHO.

Of cause, I could be wrong, but I express what the WCK describe as told in Asia.

[Robinhood]

Nope, I am not in the different end, KG is latching at the big physical movement posture level ,

While I am presenting a force change level of WCK , the elements of small. Movement fast Jin domain of WCK.

KG is thinking using move to play Lin siu dai da or capture the center. I share the close body elements of ancient WCK where every part of the body is a hand , at the contact point there is recieve issue or Lin siu dai da, capture center line at the contact. It is a play of force trajectory with small motion.

It is an art of the whole body is weapon, not only hands. Every angle is capture the center not has to move to different angle.


One needs to have one's body to be able to perform the basic force changes function, otherwise, one art is just a hand distance art, not a close body art as decries in wing Chun red boat era. And to have a close body art, one needs to have the snake body develop. Then, one an play at hand, elbow, shoulder, body distance .

So, to reply KG on why showing that utube standing? It is body vesus wall. If the body can handle the the hand can handle, but the hand can handle doesn't mean the body can handle . Also, in the clip it points out, there is hold push type of usual handling and force change dynamic type which is much refine then the common hold, tense , and push back type. Those are dynamic with subtle move. Move within move. Those are the key of WCK short Jin. Certainly, not those chain punch, pushing , and knowint limbs but knowing not type or deal.

By the definition of siu Lin tau, when one not get these far, one can only be knowing less the half of WCK.


Who is KG and HS ?

The hand analogy is interesting way of putting it, we just call it more of a capturing points or sticking.

[k gledhill]

From your posts, it is clear that you don't see what he is explaining, maybe you should be looking for someone that can explain and show you in person.

He explained it pretty clearly with the bat, you need to ask yourself why you can't see it.

I have a quick question, why do you call wc, vt,? isn't vt the style made up by leng ting .?

You are missing the point I know what is missing in the hendrik demo ; ) I am asking hendrik to show the rest .....

[k gledhill]

Who is KG and HS ?

The hand analogy is interesting way of putting it, we just call it more of a capturing points or sticking.

Kevin Gledhill Hendrik Santo

[k gledhill]

Nope, I am not in the different end, KG is latching at the big physical movement posture level ,

While I am presenting a force change level of WCK , the elements of small. Movement fast Jin domain of WCK.

KG is thinking using move to play Lin siu dai da or capture the center. I share the close body elements of ancient WCK where every part of the body is a hand , at the contact point there is recieve issue or Lin siu dai da, capture center line at the contact. It is a play of force trajectory with small motion.

It is an art of the whole body is weapon, not only hands. Every angle is capture the center not has to move to different angle.


One needs to have one's body to be able to perform the basic force changes function, otherwise, one art is just a hand distance art, not a close body art as decries in wing Chun red boat era. And to have a close body art, one needs to have the snake body develop. Then, one an play at hand, elbow, shoulder, body distance .

So, to reply KG on why showing that utube standing? It is body vesus wall. If the body can handle the the hand can handle, but the hand can handle doesn't mean the body can handle . Also, in the clip it points out, there is hold push type of usual handling and force change dynamic type which is much refine then the common hold, tense , and push back type. Those are dynamic with subtle move. Move within move. Those are the key of WCK short Jin. Certainly, not those chain punch, pushing , and knowint limbs but knowing not type or deal. Just ask the question, how can one stick? If one can handle the four basic function with ones body contact?

By the definition of siu Lin tau, when one not get these far, one can only be knowing less the half of WCK. Many such as Bruce Lee who don't know the content of the art but going extreme to promote thier own view, that cannot be the teaching of WCK red boat. IMHO.

Of cause, I could be wrong, but I express what the WCK describe as told in Asia.



The whole point of slt is to support a punch. And acute elbow angles....

[Hendrik]

The whole point of slt is to support a punch.

That is your definition , that is fine.

[Hendrik]

You are missing the point I know what is missing in the hendrik demo ; ) I am asking hendrik to show the rest .....

It is infront of of ones eyes, see it or not.

As in the PB clip, his opponents are having a top bottom breaking a part due to no able to handle thier body.

We all only see what we like.

[Robinhood]

The whole point of slt is to support a punch.

I think you missed the boat on that one, you never want to support the other guy, if you are 100 lbs and he is 250 lbs, how are you going to support 250 lbs with one hand out in front of you, can you lift 250 lbs with one arm stretched in front of you ?

Maybe 20 lbs.

[Hendrik]

I think you missed the boat on that one, you never want to support the other guy, if you are 100 lbs and he is 250 lbs, how are you going to support 250 lbs with one hand out in front of you, can you lift 250 lbs with one arm stretched in front of you ?

Maybe 20 lbs.



This is a problem in some WCK today, it is against law of physics. Violate law of momentum. People talk about how scientific their WCK structure or alignment but never consider momentum in dynamic.

Momentum = mass x velocity

It is crazy to think one can support the other guy just by putting the body or place elbow such and such way, or hold on to a geometry shape.....etc without knowing how to handle the seven joints in dynamic alive under subtle handling, which is the engine handling or the point in my utube .

These people doing siu Lin tau with a broken a part body where the lower body hold and tense, and the upper body hold and the arm waving seperately.

[k gledhill]

I think you missed the boat on that one, you never want to support the other guy, if you are 100 lbs and he is 250 lbs, how are you going to support 250 lbs with one hand out in front of you, can you lift 250 lbs with one arm stretched in front of you ?

Maybe 20 lbs.

I know what to do ; )

[Robinhood]

This is a problem in some WCK today, it is against law of physics. Violate law of momentum. People talk about how scientific their WCK structure or alignment but never consider momentum in dynamic.

Momentum = mass x velocity

It is crazy to think one can support the other guy just by putting the body or place elbow such and such way, or hold on to a geometry shape.....etc without knowing how to handle the seven joints in dynamic alive under subtle handling, which is the engine handling or the point in my utube .

These people doing siu Lin tau with a broken a part body where the lower body hold and tense, and the upper body hold and the arm waving seperately.

Hey check out this sensitivity drilling posted on another thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL9JPHBSrKY&feature=youtu.be

What do you think ?, now that is real training .:D

[Vajramusti]

Hey check out this sensitivity drilling posted on another thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL9JPHBSrKY&feature=youtu.be

What do you think ?, now that is real training .:D
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nit wing chun- perhaps an imitation- misses the wing chun boat.

[Hendrik]

Hey check out this sensitivity drilling posted on another thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL9JPHBSrKY&feature=youtu.be

What do you think ?, now that is real training .:D

IMHO, these are mostly limbs moving, the body is not handling as much.

[Robinhood]

IMHO, these are mostly limbs moving, the body is not handling as much.

Ya, I just thought it was funny, how these guys don't have a clue about body structure.

Flowery hands with no support , you will never get much from that kind of training, but might work against a guy without body structure and smaller.

[YouKnowWho]

IMHO, these are mostly limbs moving, the body is not handling as much.

It's not fair to look at that clip just from 1 single angle. The term "body unification (body structure)" may mean a lot in "solo" training. In combat, you may have to trade it with "speed".

Will his "body unification (body structure)",

- necessary at that moment?
- cause him to be over commited?
- cause him to slow down?

For example, at 2.45 the "single neck tie" drill. If he used his body to pull, his center gravity will be shifted. His opponent can then take advantage on it. At that moment, it's better not to let your opponent to "detect" your intention. Since all those drills in that clip are not "finish moves", the full "body unification" commitment won't be needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL9JPHBSrKY&feature=youtu.be

In theory, we all want to achieve "only seeing the body move but don't see the limbs move." In reality, that's not always possible.

Oneday I tried to use my body to guide (pull/push) my arms. When my body is rotating in one direction, it pulls my arms along with it. It's a great feeling, but I can feel there was some "delay" between my body commitment and my arm respond. I also found out that since my body was the master and my arms were the slave. My arms just don't function as fast as I want them to be. After that experiment, I no longer believe in "pure theory".

In combat, in order to achieve the maximum speed, one has to sacrifice some "body unification". Be able to use 50% force to hit on your opponent is still better than to use 100% force and miss the target.

[k gledhill]

Good questions, may be some one can answer this for me!

:confused:.....…

[k gledhill]

Ya, I just thought it was funny, how these guys don't have a clue about body structure.

Flowery hands with no support , you will never get much from that kind of training, but might work against a guy without body structure and smaller.

Fight them before you dismiss it. Some drills are for reasons you may not understand.

[Hendrik]

Body handling means handle the body for unity or separtion.


There is a different between fluent in using the body as unity and separation, and not fluent in using the body as unity and separation.

This clip shows a not fluent use of body, unity or separation.

A fluent handling or a rusty handling has a different.




It's not fair to look at that clip just from 1 single angle. The term "body unification (body structure)" may mean a lot in "solo" training. In combat, you may have to trade it with "speed".

Will his "body unification (body structure)",

- necessary at that moment?
- cause him to be over commited?
- cause him to slow down?

In theory, we all want to achieve "only seeing the body move but don't see the limbs move." In reality, that's not always possible.

Oneday I tried to use my body to guide (pull/push) my arms. When my body is rotating in one direction, it pulls my arms along with it. It's a great feeling, but I can feel there was some "delay" between my body commitment and my arm respond. I also found out that since my body was the master and my arms were the slave. My arms just don't function as fast as I want them to be. After that experiment, I no longer believe in "pure theory".

In combat, in order to achieve the maximum speed, one has to sacrifice some "body unification". Be able to use 50% force to hit on your opponent is still better than to use 100% force and miss the target.

[Robinhood]

Fight them before you dismiss it. Some drills are for reasons you may not understand.

Oh, don't worry I understand it, some of those are fine because of position, like when they dont want body structure, but the problem is they don't have it when they need it.

At least you should be able to have the choice, and use it when needed, they don't even know that they don't have it to use.

[Hendrik]

Oh, don't worry I understand it, some of those are fine because of position, like when they dont want body structure, but the problem is they don't have it when they need it.

At least you should be able to have the choice, and use it when needed, they don't even know that they don't have it to use.

These are chasing hands stuffs, and yet K doesn't complain as usual. Hahaha

[YouKnowWho]

but the problem is they don't have it when they need it.
There is no way to know that from that single clip. He may spend a lot of training time in "body unification/structure". It's just not showing in that clip.

[Robinhood]

It's not fair to look at that clip just from 1 single angle. The term "body unification (body structure)" may mean a lot in "solo" training. In combat, you may have to trade it with "speed".

Will his "body unification (body structure)",

- necessary at that moment?
- cause him to be over commited?
- cause him to slow down?

For example, at 2.45 the "single neck tie" drill. If he used his body to pull, his center gravity will be shifted. His opponent can then take advantage on it. At that moment, it's better not to let your opponent to "detect" your intention. Since all those drills in that clip are not "finish moves", the full "body unification" commitment won't be needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL9JPHBSrKY&feature=youtu.be

In theory, we all want to achieve "only seeing the body move but don't see the limbs move." In reality, that's not always possible.

Oneday I tried to use my body to guide (pull/push) my arms. When my body is rotating in one direction, it pulls my arms along with it. It's a great feeling, but I can feel there was some "delay" between my body commitment and my arm respond. I also found out that since my body was the master and my arms were the slave. My arms just don't function as fast as I want them to be. After that experiment, I no longer believe in "pure theory".

In combat, in order to achieve the maximum speed, one has to sacrifice some "body unification". Be able to use 50% force to hit on your opponent is still better than to use 100% force and miss the target.

Yes some parts are ok, because they don't want structure , but some parts should have structure, when you have structure , you don't need to move fast, but you need to have it when you need it, that's all I am saying. Until you have structure you will not even know where you need it.

[YouKnowWho]

These are chasing hands stuffs, and yet K doesn't complain as usual. Hahaha

In

- "solo" training, your body push your hand.
- "2 men" combat, your body "chase" your hand.

There is nothing wrong trying to land your fist right on your opponent's face (chasing your opponent's head). You then put your body mass behind it after your fist has touched your opponent's face. How much power can you generate at that moment depends on how much body mess you can push into it. It may not be your 100% maximum power. But at least, your punch has landed on your opponent's face.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/bodychasehand.jpg/

[Robinhood]

In

- "solo" training, your body push your hand.
- "2 men" combat, your body "chase" your hand.

There is nothing wrong trying to land your fist right on your opponent's face (chasing your opponent's head). You then put your body mass behind it after your fist has touched your opponent's face. How much power can you generate at that moment depends on how much body mess you can push into it. It may not be your 100% maximum power. But at least, your punch has landed on your opponent's face.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/bodychasehand.jpg/

Sure nothing wrong with chasing hands, if both people chasing hands faster stronger wins, .......but we are talking about structure and how it is used.

[k gledhill]

These are chasing hands stuffs, and yet K doesn't complain as usual. Hahaha

Looks more like a kali mix

[Hendrik]

Looks more like a kali mix

Yup. Jkd stuffs