Question about parrying drills

[JamesC]

I was watching some videos today of a drill where one punches and the other parries and punches and over and over. No idea what it is called since I'm not a wing chun guy lol.

What I noticed is that these practitioners were well out of striking range while doing this. Arm fully extended and quite a bit short of the target. It seems like this would train people to use their techniques outside of the correct distance. Is this common in wing chun? Wouldn't you want to be closer and instead do this drill while pulling thr punch short?

[k gledhill]

I was watching some videos today of a drill where one punches and the other parries and punches and over and over. No idea what it is called since I'm not a wing chun guy lol.

What I noticed is that these practitioners were well out of striking range while doing this. Arm fully extended and quite a bit short of the target. It seems like this would train people to use their techniques outside of the correct distance. Is this common in wing chun? Wouldn't you want to be closer and instead do this drill while pulling thr punch short?

Sometimes it can simply be a module to develop hand coordination...VT requires good hand coordination.

[JamesC]

Can't you develop that coordination at the appropriate range?

[Vajramusti]

JamesC's Avatar
__________________
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An Apache proverb--- WOW-mescalero, chiracahua, white river, Arizona, NM, Oklahoma ...?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=JamesC;1212131] No idea what it is called since I'm not a wing chun guy lol.

---------------------------------------------
Thank heavens.

[JamesC]

[QUOTE=JamesC;1212131] No idea what it is called since I'm not a wing chun guy lol.

---------------------------------------------
Thank heavens.

What? I'm sorry, did I somehow offend you by asking a harmless question?

What I was trying to get at is whether this is a drill used SOLELY for coordination, or is it performed this way because some schools prefer to teach full extention on each strike, etc. Stuff like that.

I realize i'm not part of your "uber-elite wing chun club", but I find it odd that the first thing you do is reply with an insulting comment. It's unprofessional and childish.

[LFJ]

Can't you develop that coordination at the appropriate range?

First, you can ignore Vaj. He hasn't posted anything productive in a long while.

Now, here's an explanation of the extended training range for single sticky hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITEDDicoo6Y

[JamesC]

First, you can ignore Vaj. He hasn't posted anything productive in a long while.

Now, here's an explanation of the extended training range for single sticky hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITEDDicoo6Y

Thanks LFJ, the answer to my question was explained within the first 2 minutes. ;)

[anerlich]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1212162]

What? I'm sorry, did I somehow offend you by asking a harmless question?

What I was trying to get at is whether this is a drill used SOLELY for coordination, or is it performed this way because some schools prefer to teach full extention on each strike, etc. Stuff like that.

I realize i'm not part of your "uber-elite wing chun club", but I find it odd that the first thing you do is reply with an insulting comment. It's unprofessional and childish.

I think he may have been suggesting that you not being a WC guy might be a GOOD thing, as you would be without the adversarial attitude, fanboy substyle nuthugging, and lack of aptitude for logic that belongs to many WC stylists.

[anerlich]

[QUOTE=LFJ;1212174]First, you can ignore Vaj. He hasn't posted anything productive in a long while.
QUOTE]

And he's not alone.

[JamesC]

[QUOTE=JamesC;1212165]

I think he may have been suggesting that you not being a WC guy might be a GOOD thing, as you would be without the adversarial attitude, fanboy substyle nuthugging, and lack of aptitude for logic that belongs to many WC stylists.

If that's the case, I will definitely apologize for being a twit.

[anerlich]

With regard to the drill - I didn't watch the clip but have an imagination - this sort of stuff might be good in small doses to develop cooordination.

It should be easy enough to work it in a range where contact is possible, and even delivered if the parry fails, with a little extra effort.

Looks bad on a vid if you mess that up and someone gets hit, perhaps.

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=LFJ;1212174]First, you can ignore Vaj. He hasn't posted anything productive in a long while.
QUOTE]

And he's not alone.

Gee, I reckon I've never posted anything productive!

[EternalSpring]

I was watching some videos today of a drill where one punches and the other parries and punches and over and over. No idea what it is called since I'm not a wing chun guy lol.

What I noticed is that these practitioners were well out of striking range while doing this. Arm fully extended and quite a bit short of the target. It seems like this would train people to use their techniques outside of the correct distance. Is this common in wing chun? Wouldn't you want to be closer and instead do this drill while pulling thr punch short?

Imo, it's not a good thing to do. I dont know if you've ever trained any martial arts or not, but if not, it's actually a common view that striking out of range with the arms fully extended and short of the target is usually a bad idea. Most people usually realize this once they try it and it fails lol.

[LFJ]

Imo, it's not a good thing to do. I dont know if you've ever trained any martial arts or not, but if not, it's actually a common view that striking out of range with the arms fully extended and short of the target is usually a bad idea. Most people usually realize this once they try it and it fails lol.

Do people actually miss the wallbag because of drilling like this? Do they accidentally stand too far away?

We do various drills, bag work, and sparring with the awareness of range at contact not being fully extended, but to extend and punch through the target once contact is made from close range.

With that awareness I don't know why anyone would extend a punch at a further distance without ever making contact. I don't understand how anyone could mess that up due to a separate training drill where we aren't actually trying to hit a target but develop mechanics.

The uncommitted element of the VT punch is very basic to my understanding.

[wingchunIan]

I normally teach most drills at a safe distance to begin with and then close the range once students have the mechanics understood and the control not to actually smash each other. I like the DP clip posted and the only thing that I would say isn't covered (most likely because he talked about it elsewhere or some other reason) is that the partner doing the striking, whether the palm strike or the punch should also be learning to switch off their attack once it has been intercepted / deflected

[Phil Redmond]

The best way to determine the correct striking range is the spar full contact. But we all know that Wing Chun is too dangerous to do that. :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

You shouldn't be trying to hit each other in Dahn Chi Sau at any time! :eek:

.....but I guess it depends on which lineage you belong to :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LFJ;1212174]First, you can ignore Vaj. He hasn't posted anything productive in a long while.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks for that impersonal remark- onward with pro-duction.

[k gledhill]

Can't you develop that coordination at the appropriate range?

Yes of course, some students can move with coordination better than others.

If a student can manage to "Pat Head and Rub Stomach" while stepping to the correct distances as well, then they dont need to do the PH & RS drill separately ;) Another aspect to the drills are so we dont keep hands 'holding on' to the arm its parrying , an even more common error of over attending to an arm. Iow recycling parry back to make a new attack as the rear takes over to strike/defend simultaneously....a common error in chi-sao is to use the parrying hand too long and x arms.

Using one hand to make a parrying force while the other makes a direct striking line of force is often mixed up into both arms going forwards when asked to add stepping or done at faster speeds under more mental pressure. One of chi-sao main aims is to develop a structurally sound moving angling frame with well coordinated arms acting to assist each other, rather than one hand push the opponent away from the other hand trying to strike them.

[Vajramusti]

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesC View Post
Can't you develop that coordination at the appropriate range?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am assuming that you are referring to a pak sao drill-I have not reviewed the entire thread.
The pak sao drill can be practiced at a punching range. In actual close quarters punching
the arms are bent with elbows down. And you pak at the kiu- the bridge. Each good drill has some specific purposes-in this case including timing, targeting and two hand coordination, among others.

[JPinAZ]

You shouldn't be trying to hit each other in Dahn Chi Sau at any time! :eek:

Why not try to hit each other? That is the whole point of close quarter bridge training - to defend against real attacks that can damage you at specific ranges, facing & contact points!

No offense meant to anyone, but IMO, without being in range to hit each other, Tan/Bong/Fook "Dahn Chi Sau" tools aren't even necessary/applicable. Of course drills typically start off with light energy, but they should always be in the proper range for striking given the focus of the drill.
In the case of T/B/F dan chi sau as shown in the DP clip, if the end goal isn't to train against proper energy & facing within striking range, you aren't learning the usable responses based on distance, timing, contact point, leverage control, loi lau hoi sung, etc on the bridge. My question would be, why are we connecting to our opponent with these tools if they aren't even in range to strike me in the first place? While I do agree with his ideas on needing proper power for the strike, I disagree you can't train it at a range where you can actually hit your opponent. From my experience, this is the whole point of T/B/F dan chi sau drilling.


.....but I guess it depends on which lineage you belong to :rolleyes:

This has nothing to do with lineage (or specific MS for that matter) - it's a matter of physics and common sense fight skill training.

[Fa Xing]

JamesC's Avatar
__________________
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An Apache proverb--- WOW-mescalero, chiracahua, white river, Arizona, NM, Oklahoma ...?

What about his avatar?

You know I have a lot of respect for the Wing Chun art, it is JKD's nucleus after all, but some of it's practitioners can be real nutters.

Of course, people are crazy! :rolleyes:

JamesC, I know that in JKD as I learned from Jerry Poteet and his student, Ed Monaghan, that there are some "energy" drills meant for sensitivity training and not so much fighting on it's own. Matt Numerich has a nice video about it here (http://youtu.be/BL9JPHBSrKY). (The video here does have Kali stuff mixed in with it).

[Robinhood]

What about his avatar?

You know I have a lot of respect for the Wing Chun art, it is JKD's nucleus after all, but some of it's practitioners can be real nutters.

Of course, people are crazy! :rolleyes:

JamesC, I know that in JKD as I learned from Jerry Poteet and his student, Ed Monaghan, that there are some "energy" drills meant for sensitivity training and not so much fighting on it's own. Matt Numerich has a nice video about it here (http://youtu.be/BL9JPHBSrKY).

Wow, ya you keep practicing like that, you will get real gooood,

Who can shed some light on what's going on in that clip ?

[LFJ]

My question would be, why are we connecting to our opponent with these tools if they aren't even in range to strike me in the first place?

I don't know if WSL had any other reason for changing it than to be able to throw a full strike, but my answer would be that since this is often one of the very first chi-sau drills a student will learn, the focus should be on developing coordination in a single hand in a controlled manner, getting a basic feeling for LSJC without the fear of accidentally hitting your partner or getting hit yourself, learning the basics of striking from or responding to energy with the elbow, etc., all while being able to throw a full strike to develop proper mechanics with energy in a controlled and safe environment. After all, beginners don't have that yet.

Iow, we're learning not to chase hands, but at the same time we're not really worrying about the opponent yet, but just learning to respond to the energy on our arm. After all, we're never going to fight with just one arm, or have just one arm to defend against. Even if we had only one arm free, we wouldn't be going in close range with it. At close range with the possibility of being hit, we should always use two arms in cooperation, that's where pun-sau rolling comes in. Daan-chi-sau isn't the place for that.

[Graham H]

Why not try to hit each other? That is the whole point of close quarter bridge training - to defend against real attacks that can damage you at specific ranges, facing & contact points!

That's not the whole point in my lineage.


No offense meant to anyone, but IMO, without being in range to hit each other, Tan/Bong/Fook "Dahn Chi Sau" tools aren't even necessary/applicable. Of course drills typically start off with light energy, but they should always be in the proper range for striking given the focus of the drill.

There is good reason for it not to be and just because you haven't been exposed to a different idea doesn't mean it is automatically wrong doers it?


In the case of T/B/F dan chi sau as shown in the DP clip, if the end goal isn't to train against proper energy & facing within striking range, you aren't learning the usable responses based on distance, timing, contact point, leverage control, loi lau hoi sung, etc on the bridge.

Using force at an early stage leads to problems. Something that you are not aware of it seems. There is a good reason for the distancing outside touching distance. Timing is not really an important element in DCS. Its too early for LLHS ideas and bridging has nothing to do with the drill.


My question would be, why are we connecting to our opponent with these tools if they aren't even in range to strike me in the first place?

......because its the mechanics that are important and all intent of hitting has to be removed so we can get these fundamentals right.


While I do agree with his ideas on needing proper power for the strike, I disagree you can't train it at a range where you can actually hit your opponent.

So we disagree. We are two different lineages. My point exactly.


From my experience, this is the whole point of T/B/F dan chi sau drilling.

Yes it is but not for striking yet. Not the right stage of development.


This has nothing to do with lineage (or specific MS for that matter) - it's a matter of physics and common sense fight skill training.

It has everything to do with lineage! To me your idea is not common sense in fact totally different.

Unless I come to your school or you come to mine it doesn't really matter does it? :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

getting a basic feeling for LSJC without the fear of accidentally hitting your partner .

Can you explain this further?

[LFJ]

Both partners should have constant springy energy. The opposing forward forces are what create the appearance of sticking. If at any point that force is removed or switched off, the other partner should automatically spring off into a strike. At the extended range they can do so with a full strike and not worry about hitting their partner. At close range they'd have to pull the strike very early to not hit them, working against the very automatic response a beginner is trying to learn and condition. It is better to learn to turn the spring into a full strike and learn to pull it later, rather than never learning to turn it into a full strike and always pulling it.

[Graham H]

Both partners should have constant springy energy. The opposing forward forces are what create the appearance of sticking. If at any point that force is removed or switched off, the other partner should automatically spring off into a strike. At the extended range they can do so with a full strike and not worry about hitting their partner. At close range they'd have to pull the strike very early to not hit them, working against the very automatic response a beginner is trying to learn and condition. It is better to learn to turn the spring into a full strike and learn to pull it later, rather than never learning to turn it into a full strike and always pulling it.

Ok I kind of agree but my idea is a little different. LSJC comes from the whole body unit not just the arm and there is no "springy energy" analogy in my system. In dahn chi it is too early to apply any force as the student is still learning the basic mechanics of the actions. There is no point going through all the reasons why. I can show it in 30 secs but in text confusion by the reader can arise.

Once we have coordinated all the actions properly with each individual arm then we move to poon sau but there is still no force being exchanged for the same reasons that none is exchanged in dahn chi. At a certain point down the line force IS added but not before the whole structure process and position runs good.

Another common problem humans have with punching is that we naturally draw the fist back before going forward in order to generate power. This problem is increased as in Ving Tsun we are punching with the elbow in, with the fist vertical and from close ranges. This has to drilled out so that each fist can always travel forward from it starting point. This in turn puts constant pressure towards the opponents center of mass NOT constant pressure towards their arms.

In Ving Tsun any contact with the opponents arms is only for a split second. There is no time in a fight to go to the arms, bridge and manipulate them somewhere else. The idea is to have the arm performing two actions. The fist hits and the elbow position protects, displaces and gives power from structure not muscle.

As this is not natural DCS helps to perfect it amongst other things.

..................in my lineage :)

[k gledhill]

Dan chi-sao introduce elbows...

[JPinAZ]

That's not the whole point in my lineage.

Ok.


There is good reason for it not to be and just because you haven't been exposed to a different idea doesn't mean it is automatically wrong doers it?

I didn't say right or wrong. Maybe you should go back and read what I wrote.


Using force at an early stage leads to problems.

Yet this is DP's whole argument in the clip I was talking about and that you came here to defend: stepping out of striking range so you can use full power!! So which is it? Or are you just here to argue, regardless the actual point?


Using force at an early stage leads to problems. Something that you are not aware of it seems.

I'm starting to think you are just trolling.
Again, you either have serious reading comprehension problems or you are simply ignoring things I say even when you just directly quoted them. If you go back and actually read what you quoted me saying just before this reply, you will see I said the following:


Of course drills typically start off with light energy, but they should always be in the proper range for striking given the focus of the drill.

Regardless whether we agree or not on a subject, since you aren't interested (or capable) in having a logical discussion/debate, I have nothing more to say to you.

[Graham H]

I have nothing more to say to you.

Mission accomplished :)

[JPinAZ]

Mission accomplished :)

Yes - If your goal was to be a troll with a reading comprehension about the 3rd grade level, I'd say mission well accomplished. :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

Yes - If your goal was to be a troll with a reading comprehension about the 3rd grade level, I'd say mission well accomplished. :rolleyes:

Yes I am a 3rd grade troll. A 3rd grade troll that has more of an idea on Ving Tsun than you which make you a junior high ****! :D

You can throw stones from Arizona all day long mate. Doesn't bother me. ;)

You'll never be as good at it as GlennR

[Ali. R]

First, you can ignore Vaj. He hasn't posted anything productive in a long while.

Now, here's an explanation of the extended training range for single sticky hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITEDDicoo6Y

Nice clip, Here’s a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhyXUjJ4I5c&list=PL74AD0BAD4D62A11A&index=3) of good training range as well.

Ali